You know what we say at Zoomcatchers, we're never too young to think about aging!

Zoomcatchers is pleased to present Conversations on Aging, Episode 4, a conversation with Jennifer Liebermann. Jennifer is a strategic innovation leader, community builder, and facilitator.

Her superpower is aligning disparate groups around a shared purpose and vision, often exploring the future of various topics.

She founded a consulting practice in 2023 to apply her experience as a healthcare innovation leader, driving large-scale change to help organizations define new futures, engage stakeholders, and build programs for results.

Jennifer founded and led Kaiser Permanente's Garfield Innovation Center, a global model for visioning the future of health and enabling people to prototype and test new ideas.

Thanks for joining us in this important conversation!

Will it be the Golden Years or the Silver Tsunami? Stay tuned and find out!

Subscribe, like, share, and follow!

Feedspot has named Conversations on Aging one of the Top 5 UCSD Podcasts!

https://blog.feedspot.com/ucsd_podcasts/

To listen to the audio podcast of this and previous episodes: https://conversations-on-aging.captivate.fm/listen

To learn more about Zoomcatchers, go to: https://www.zoomcatchers.us

This podcast is powered by Ecamm! To learn more about Ecamm: https://www.ecamm.com/mac/ecammlive/?fp_ref=kimberly87

Greetings and welcome to this special conversation on aging.

2

You know what we say?

3

We're never too young

to think about aging.

4

I'm your host, Kimberly gun with zoom

catchers, and we are super excited to

5

bring you episode four, envisioning the

future of elder care and healthy aging.

6

We have been so fortunate with our

podcast to have amazing guests and

7

we have another amazing guest today.

8

Her CV is super long.

9

I'm going to give you the highlights and

she's going to break it down and give

10

us some more details about who she is.

11

And today we are proud

to have on our show.

12

Jennifer Lieberman.

13

She is a strategic innovation leader,

community builder, and facilitator.

14

Her superpower is aligning

disparate groups around a shared

15

purpose and vision, often exploring

the future of various topics.

16

She founded a consulting practice

17

as a healthcare innovation leader,

driving large scale change to help

18

organizations define new futures.

19

Engage stakeholders and

build programs for results.

20

Jennifer founded and led Kaiser

Permanente's Garfield Innovation

21

Center, a global model for visioning

the future of health and enabling

22

people to prototype and test new ideas.

23

Her work explored the future of

digital health and the role of

24

social determinants of health.

25

I am so super excited to bring

Jennifer to the show today.

26

She is an MBA and an MPH from UC Berkeley,

and an MBA and MPH from UC Berkeley.

27

I am so super excited to bring Jennifer

to Into the zoom catchers studio,

28

Jennifer, how are you doing today?

29

Jennifer: Thanks, Kimberly.

30

I'm doing really well.

31

And I'm, I'm really excited

to have this conversation

32

Kimberly: with you.

33

I am super excited too.

34

I've had a cup and a half of coffee,

so I've got some energy to back it up.

35

This conversation is so important

and I know it will resonate

36

with so many people out there.

37

So please tell us more about yourself

and in particular, how did you

38

get into the health care space?

39

Jennifer: Yeah, well, I know you

wanted to hear about how this happened.

40

I, I guess it wasn't a surprise

that I ended up in, in health care.

41

my mother was.

42

an epidemiologist and I grew up, in

San Francisco, in the eighties, in the

43

middle of the AIDS and HIV, epidemic.

44

And I think my career, it

has always been clear to me.

45

I wanted to be in healthcare, but

I've had a number of different.

46

Places and, and, really early in my

career, I focused at a really high

47

level on health care policy and all

the changes in the health care system.

48

that had such an impact on how

we train health professionals, to

49

practice in teams because that's

how healthcare is delivered.

50

and it was great working in policy, but

I really, after graduate school, I really

51

wanted to, to work for an organization

that was really, making a difference.

52

And so I founded Kaiser Permanente's,

Innovation Center, which was.

53

Super exciting.

54

we did just some absolutely amazing work.

55

and, since I've left Kaiser Permanente

and have been a consultant, I've really

56

wanted to focus more on health rather

than health care and have been doing,

57

quite a bit of work in the food insecurity

space, both globally and domestically.

58

. Kimberly: Awesome.

59

Awesome.

60

There you have it, folks.

61

She has been, uh, in the trenches in, in

this field and we are so appreciative that

62

you're on to, help us explore this topic.

63

And I really want to dive into

the topic, envisioning the future

64

of elder care and healthy aging.

65

Thank you.

66

We've been able to talk offline about

this topic, and I've learned, more

67

about you and your personal experiences.

68

So can you just tell us more about how

your personal experiences have given

69

you insight into this topic in general?

70

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I

think today I will try to put

71

on three hats, if you will.

72

I mean, obviously I have this healthcare

background, but I've also had a lot of,

73

personal experience as a caregiver, as

the daughter of someone with dementia.

74

but then also hopefully I can

speak, personally as well.

75

so my father, was diagnosed at

64 with early onset dementia.

76

And at the time I was in my thirties

and had, an eight year journey,

77

with my father, as a caregiver,

not in my home, but it was a pretty

78

significant, part of my life.

79

And it was a time when I started

having kids, and was really part

80

of that, sandwich generation.

81

and there were, there were a number

of things because I was both working

82

in the health care field and I

was experiencing this journey.

83

as a caregiver, and there were, I think,

three elements of that that are worth

84

telling a little bit more about, I think

the first one was that when you get a

85

diagnosis, like this, There is so much

that you need that is outside the formal

86

health care system and those connections

are really hard to make, you know,

87

we had to navigate things like a role

change and what that meant, emotionally.

88

to go from being a daughter to almost

reversing roles as, as the parent and,

89

you know, how we dealt with really

tricky conversations, like when it was

90

no longer appropriate for my father

to drive, or when we came to the point

91

where we could no longer have him in

my stepmother's home and he needed

92

more care than we could provide.

93

Navigating those conversations was so a

part of our journey, and yet it was like

94

this much of the health care system.

95

And, I think that was a real, challenge.

96

I think the other thing, that

really struck me was, This was

97

an experience about our family.

98

It was about how my stepmother supported

my father and how I supported my father.

99

I was an only child.

100

but the healthcare system,

their interaction was just

101

with my father and it was.

102

At every turn, all of these decisions

were being made, especially further

103

on as, as my father's dementia

progressed, and, he was even nonverbal.

104

those conversations, and decisions were

being made by myself and my stepmother.

105

The whole system was designed

to support my father.

106

So I'll give you a great example.

107

my father would go in for a visit

and I was working full time, right?

108

So I couldn't come to all of these and

I would be put on the phone, which was.

109

Which was terrific to do, but

it was so hard to participate

110

in that conversation fully.

111

And there are so many

technologies that exist now.

112

Video is a great one, where

I could have been a lot more

113

involved in those conversations.

114

So, this idea of like engaging the

entire caregiving team is so important

115

and, and something that I just

firsthand experience not having, and

116

then the, the third thing, Kimberly,

and this is, this is so hard, I think

117

something like 90 percent of Americans.

118

Want to have a conversation about end of

life and only about a quarter of them do.

119

And that's what played

out in my family, right?

120

It was not until the very end when

we were having these conversations.

121

And, my experience was that the

healthcare team kind of tiptoed around us.

122

And at the very end when we signaled,

yes, we need to talk about this, I felt

123

a sense of relief on their part, but

I was also thinking like, why didn't

124

we have this conversation years ago?

125

It would have, it would've done so many

beautiful things in this situation.

126

So, I learned a lot in that process and.

127

Because I was so young, because I was in

my 30s when this happened, I have taken

128

it upon myself that, every friend that I

know that is now going through having to

129

care for a parent with dementia, I feel

like I, I really owe it to them to talk

130

about my experience, and what I would

do differently if I were to go back.

131

Kimberly: Thank you so much for, for

sharing that because, based on our

132

offline conversation, I knew that,

I know that about you and that topic

133

resonates with me as well, because

I was a caregiver for my aunt who

134

also was suffering from dementia.

135

And had to navigate that

as a family with my partner

136

and the

137

Kimberly: healthcare system.

138

And so I appreciate you sharing that

and I know that there's millions

139

of people out there, that have

gone through a similar experience.

140

so based on those experiences, and I

know you want to, we're gonna explore the

141

topic of shifting from a patient centered,

healthcare system to more of a caregiver,

142

approach or finding ways to better support

or more fully support the caregiver.

143

What can you draw from your personal

experience and the experiences that you

144

may be hearing from friends and family?

145

How can we shift that, that focus or

make it more of a family oriented,

146

a caregiver oriented experience,

how to engage on those topics,

147

move, some of that taboo around end

of life and death so that we can.

148

continue to prevail this topic,

where it's not, fraught with

149

so much anxiety and stress.

150

It's already a stressful, anxious

situation what would you recommend

151

as far as moving in that direction?

152

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, I

have so many thoughts.

153

I, I think on the first one, the

healthcare system tends to want to

154

medicalize things and, what, especially

at the beginning of whatever, diagnosis,

155

caregiving journey you're on, I

think just having peers to talk to

156

about what it's like, I would have

benefited so much from talking to

157

someone in my situation in my community

about the resources that existed.

158

And, what was given to me was, oh,

hey, there's a, you know, there's a

159

caregiver support group that meets at two

o'clock in San Francisco on a Tuesday.

160

Right.

161

And, you this whole idea of like

connecting other people who have

162

been there and, and health care is

so local with resources, that would

163

have been terrific if there had been

some kind of a navigator to help me,

164

and my family figure out, how to, how

to connect in with different things.

165

It doesn't necessarily have to be a

part of the health care system, but

166

a better handoff to a lot of those.

167

Transcripts provided you know, I

also just think we have a lot of

168

existing technology, that can bring

families into the picture more.

169

And I think acknowledging and recognizing

that, you know, if you go, if you have

170

to take a family member, to an inpatient

visit, why can't we have video to pipe

171

in, family members and, and in many

cases, that could be adult children

172

that are spread across the country.

173

I just, there are ways to solve for that

problem and it's, it's really a mindset

174

that, that needs to, that needs to shift.

175

on, on those two elements, I think

there are some pretty clear, fixes.

176

on the end of life piece, I think this

is something, that we, we need to start

177

ourselves like, 90 percent of the country,

folks want to talk about end of life

178

and they just don't end up doing it.

179

And.

180

I think, Kimberly, this is where folks

like you and I, need to just start, right?

181

Like, all of us are aging.

182

it is not easy to get off

this planet gracefully.

183

And so I think all of us can

begin having these conversations

184

with our own loved ones.

185

I think there's this tendency,

and I saw it when I was at Kaiser

186

Permanente, and we would, we would

engage what we thought were seniors.

187

To talk about, concepts.

188

And instead of having them resonate

for themselves, a lot of people, in

189

their seventies would say, Oh, that's

great for my mom in her nineties.

190

Right.

191

Right.

192

So, like they're wonderful games.

193

There's a, there's a deck of

cards called hello, that used

194

to be called my gift of grace.

195

And it's like a very accessible way

to start talking about things that

196

are, are meaningful and valuable.

197

And I think Kimberly, rather than

you and I asking, other people

198

to start this conversation.

199

I think we have to start this

conversation ourselves with our own

200

families, our own friends, to just

normalize and de stigmatize this.

201

And, my own kids that are Gen Z,

like they're all over this, right?

202

Like, I think it's a conversation

we can, and we just need to have.

203

So, those are my thoughts.

204

Kimberly: I, I love it.

205

And I, and I agree.

206

And I think that, we've been fortunate

to have other guests on the show

207

to, discuss this very issue, end

of life and the conversations.

208

And.

209

I think it's just hard and I think for

our culture in particular, you know, we

210

have a very youth oriented culture, so

people aren't, end of life, what, please,

211

old age, please don't talk about it.

212

There's, I think there's like a

natural kind of fear or pulling

213

back or drawing away from the topic.

214

And for me, as a caregiver from my

aunt, it was, it was a, there were

215

a lot of positives and there were

a lot of blessings in disguise.

216

And one of them.

217

It got me thinking about my own life

and my own death and my own end of life.

218

And I started to have those conversations

with partners and families and these

219

are things I want and I don't want this.

220

What do you think?

221

And, and the more I talk about

it, the less fearful I am, and I

222

think that's one of my messages I

want to put out there to people.

223

It's like, talk about it.

224

the earth isn't going to open

up and swallow you by having

225

this conversation, right?

226

Like nothing, nothing weird

is really going to happen.

227

You're going to, you know, pick

up and life is going to move on.

228

but what do you think it is that prevents

people from even engaging the topic?

229

Is it fear?

230

Is it something we're just not used to?

231

And how do you think we can, what

other things can we do to begin

232

to integrate it more into our

regular conversations and being?

233

Jennifer: It's such a

good question, Kimberly.

234

I think part of it is fear.

235

And, I think if you start these

conversations later in life, it's a

236

lot more difficult than if you start

them in your thirties and forties.

237

And, I think if you begin those

conversations earlier, there's

238

a lot more runway, right?

239

and, they can even be around like,

Hey, what happens if I'm hit by a bus?

240

Right?

241

so, I think just.

242

starting earlier rather than later

and, and normalizing them is, is

243

the best that, that we can do.

244

But it would be super interesting, for

you to have a guess that that focuses

245

in on that area because there are a lot

of people who do, think quite deeply

246

about end of life and, and some of those

folks, there's been a proliferation

247

in the past 10 years around games.

248

and ways to make these

conversations, just part of life.

249

And, and there has even been, peer

reviewed research that has looked

250

into the effectiveness of these games.

251

I'm not an expert in this area, but

there are people who are, And that would

252

just be a fascinating conversation.

253

So when, when you get that guest

on your show, I want to listen

254

Kimberly: in.

255

Absolutely.

256

Because when you said that my ears

really perked up because I was like, wow.

257

And I taught, um, in public schools

for a while for a couple of years.

258

And, you know, we did a lot of

gaming and, Especially nowadays

259

with kids coming around, gaming is

such an important part, even adults.

260

And it's like, what an idea

to gamify, the gamification

261

of the conversations on aging.

262

I, I love it.

263

I think it's great.

264

I think anything you, anything we can

do to Make things fun and interesting.

265

I'm all for it.

266

And you know, to get back to what

you're saying, the two of us having

267

a conversation and I think about

envisioning the future for my elder

268

care and healthy aging You know, I've

given it some thought and I know I want

269

people around me who are supporting me.

270

I know I want caregivers who are,

engaged in this topic and who

271

understand my needs and their needs.

272

And I know that I want to be in

a healthcare system or a part

273

of a healthcare system that is

supportive of me and a community.

274

So I've given it some thought,

I've talked about it, I've done

275

research and what about yourself?

276

what sort of.

277

What vision do you have for

your own, end of life and that,

278

that level of care for yourself?

279

Jennifer: it's interesting that you

ask that because I think my experience

280

has been when you see an end of life.

281

That you don't want to repeat.

282

You're just a lot more, focused

on making sure that that doesn't

283

happen, to your own family.

284

And so, being able, to die at

home, I think is really important

285

and, and not being a, a burden.

286

to my kids or spouse is

incredibly important to me.

287

so, it's a good reminder that,

I myself need to have more of

288

these explicit conversations.

289

Sometimes you think just because you've

got the thought, doesn't necessarily

290

mean that, that the folks around

you, know what, know what that is.

291

Kimberly: And it's, like you said, it,

like we've been talking about, it's

292

not something that a lot of people

want to talk about, certainly don't

293

want to wake up every day and wonder,

you know, my, about my end of life.

294

But I think, based on my research and

talking to other people, unfortunately, a

295

lot of people end up at that place where

they wish they had been thinking about it.

296

And here they are no longer maybe

in a physical or mental or emotional

297

space to think through those things.

298

and so therefore people are now scrambling

trying to make it happen for them.

299

And we don't know.

300

It's like, I don't know

what Aunt Sally wants.

301

She never said it to me.

302

And then you're dealing

with family dynamics.

303

Some people want this for Aunt Sally, XYZ

person doesn't want that for Aunt Sally.

304

with our family and our aunt, we

were fortunate in that she had

305

given it a lot of thought years ago.

306

So we were just.

307

executing her wishes and we were so

so grateful that she had done that,

308

made it really clear verbally and in

writing and so I can't stress enough

309

for people to start to really make it

clear and write it down and to think

310

about it so that your loved ones aren't

left scrambling and fighting over you

311

know we want to keep on Sally at home

she wants to go here clarification

312

would really help and did you have a

similar experience with your family?

313

You

314

Jennifer: know, I don't think we spent

enough time talking early on about,

315

what, what really mattered, especially

when my father was first diagnosed.

316

And I think, especially with

dementia, that's tough because,

317

you know, there, there's a window.

318

So if, if I would do it over again, I

would probably have some more explicit

319

conversations, really, really early on.

320

Kimberly: What would you recommend,

though, as far as having conversations

321

with younger people, teens, children,

how would you suggest we, we approach

322

it with our, our loved ones, maybe

30s and 40s, but teens and younger?

323

Jennifer: Yeah, it's such a good question.

324

Kimberly, the honest answer is, I

think there actually is quite a bit

325

of knowledge in this space and I'm not

sure that I'm, I, you know, I know how

326

to answer it, but I do know that there

are people who do know how to answer it.

327

And, I think there's a whole.

328

body of work around life care planning,

where there are different conversations

329

that are appropriate at different stages.

330

and that would be something, that

would be super interesting, to

331

explore with, with a real expert, in

332

Kimberly: that space.

333

Awesome.

334

So I'm going to put it out there.

335

If there are people out there

watching who have some expertise,

336

some deeper knowledge on that topic.

337

Shoot us an email.

338

We'd love to have you on

and so we can explore that.

339

Yeah.

340

Thank you so much for being here

We're here with Jennifer Lieberman

341

Discussing, envisioning the future

of elder care and healthy aging

342

I want to shift the conversation

to talk about some topics that I

343

know that you have been exploring

professionally, and that is issues around

344

food insecurity, social connectivity,

and social determinants of health.

345

And, I know that those are buzzwords,

you know, out there, but, tell us more

346

about those issues and how they're,

I know they're kind of becoming more

347

prominent vernacular these days.

348

Yeah, yeah.

349

Jennifer: No, Kimberly.

350

Thanks for the pivot.

351

You know, I think often We think of,

of health care and we talk about the

352

sick care system, and I think there

has been a recognition in the health

353

care industry over the past 10 plus

years that all of the things that you

354

rattled off, those are that social

care or the social determinants of

355

health, and the health care system, I

think, has gotten a lot wiser about it.

356

Thank you.

357

the fact that your, your zip code is

a greater predictor of your health

358

than your genetic code and that all of

those community factors really play a

359

huge, a huge role in, in your physical

health, from the community perspective.

360

That's the work that a lot of

community based organizations

361

have been doing forever.

362

so, it depends on, it really,

depends on your, perspective.

363

there's some exciting

shifts that are happening.

364

so CMS, which is The government agency

that regulates the two big, public health

365

insurance programs, Medicare and Medicaid.

366

they've just put in a new rule that

367

providers are gonna need to screen

for the social determinants of health.

368

and that is a step in the right direction.

369

It is not.

370

that those health care providers,

are required to address

371

the social determinants of

health, but at least screen.

372

And that, that is a first step.

373

There's, there's still a ways to go.

374

so I think there's a greater

recognition of this and that's terrific.

375

I, I think, Another, element that

is getting a lot of attention right

376

now, and I am so fascinated by

this, is the focus on loneliness

377

and So the Surgeon General, Dr.

378

Vivek Murthy,

379

just released a report this

year, it was like 81 pages.

380

on the impacts of social

isolation and, social isolation,

381

not just breaks people's hearts

figuratively, but literally as well.

382

and it is tied to increased risk

of stroke and cardiovascular

383

disease, dementia and depression.

384

and when the surgeon general says like,

I am more concerned about the impacts

385

of social isolation than obesity.

386

that is really something

to pay attention to.

387

I, I think I heard the statistic

that social isolation is like

388

smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

389

so there's clearly a problem.

390

and, and by the way, this is not just.

391

with seniors.

392

In fact, I think, young people are at

even greater risk for social isolation,

393

than people later in their lives.

394

but how we address Social isolation,

I think is, is super interesting.

395

it is the kind of thing that

carries a lot of stigma.

396

just like those end of life conversations.

397

Who wants to talk or raise their hand?

398

sign me up for a social isolation.

399

Exactly.

400

Program, right?

401

Yeah, exactly.

402

And so, when I was at Kaiser Permanente,

we were looking at some super innovative

403

programs, to address this and, a

lot of these kind of require what I

404

call Trojan horse solutions because

you can't address the issue head on.

405

You have to kind of back into it for

something that is more accessible

406

and, and has less stigma and, I think

helping people, contributing, when,

407

when seniors are able to volunteer

and share their wisdom, and help

408

others, they are helping others.

409

But they're also really

helping themselves.

410

so there are some super interesting,

models in many communities.

411

there's a an organization called

Eldera AI, which is creating a, a

412

virtual village to connect seniors.

413

and youth in a mentoring relationship

where, folks over 60 are sharing

414

their wisdom in the world, with youth.

415

and, again, I think this idea of it,

it is much harder to receive than to

416

give and models where we engage people

in community service to help others.

417

it's just it's such a virtuous

circle where we're helping everyone.

418

and I'm, I'm super interested,

in a lot of those solutions.

419

Kimberly: And it, it really sounds, you

know, interesting what you're describing.

420

And I think that, you know, as a citizen

of this country and grown up in this

421

society, so much has been, so much

emphasis seems to be placed on being

422

able to do it on your own and being

an individual and, and that's great

423

for, for some things, but not so much

when you're 90 and you're at home and

424

all of a sudden there's no one around.

425

Those connections are not, not as strong

as they used to be because Absolutely.

426

Friends have passed

and family's not close.

427

So how do you envision, you know,

moving more in that direction?

428

Is it just a matter, not just, but is it

one thing to just to get the word out and

429

let people know these kinds of programs?

430

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I

think there are a lot of these

431

programs that that do exist.

432

I would say both formally and informally.

433

So there are a lot of super

interesting elder village models.

434

some of them are, physically, how

do we bring seniors together, but

435

there are virtual elder villages,

Ashby village in the East Bay is a

436

great example where, people opt into

a network to help each other out.

437

and these exist, not just in the Bay Area.

438

They exist nationally.

439

there are a lot of these

all over the country.

440

And lots of different models where,

people really, commit to helping

441

each other, to, to the point of, when

they can't anymore and, and, build

442

relationships and purpose and connection

in the process of, of doing that.

443

So I think there are those models,

as, as I now have a kid in high

444

school and I'm thinking about like,

well, what's next, there are a

445

lot of, Friends that are thinking

about, well, where do I retire to?

446

And there are all sorts of discussions

on what are the best towns to retire to.

447

But when I think about it, it's like,

who's your community and network, right?

448

Like, the geographic places is

always, of course, interesting,

449

but who are your people?

450

Like, what's your village?

451

and I think having.

452

explicit conversations with people

about what, what matters to you,

453

and who your tribe is, is just super

454

Kimberly: important.

455

Mm hmm.

456

I, I agree.

457

And I, like we've been stressing,

it all starts with conversation.

458

So please folks.

459

Go out there and start to have

conversations about life, your

460

future, you're, we're not too young.

461

We're never too young to

really think about it.

462

And even for young people who may

be tuning in, try to strike up

463

a conversation with your family.

464

Let them know that you're

coming from a loving place.

465

So that people aren't scared and recoil

in fear, because, as we know, and I'm

466

sure you know that, you know, the 2030

is that number is flashing yellow.

467

There's going to be of the

population that are seniors.

468

So we're all going to be called

upon to step up and look after

469

a family, friend, colleague.

470

It's just reality.

471

The numbers are going to bear that out.

472

And so the question is, how do we show up?

473

And we talked about,

the idea of showing up.

474

And, being present and, and how do,

how do we tackle and navigate this

475

situation, this life, experience that

we're, this journey that we're all on.

476

And you turned me on to,

to someone, Joan Halifax.

477

And I just want to read a haiku because

I think her haiku, this haiku that I

478

found really sums up a lot can move into

the next phase of this conversation.

479

And she writes quietly trying to

sort through the 10, 000 things.

480

And I think that's a perfect

haiku for this entire situation.

481

It's not one thing.

482

It's not two things.

483

There's a myriad of issues and topics

and points that all need to be explored.

484

I know that you have a lot of experience

engaging stakeholders on these.

485

broad, large scale, topics, and

I want to talk more about some

486

of your experience with Kaiser

487

Permanente

488

Kimberly: and, break down, some of

the key points from your work with,

489

Kaiser Permanente's Innovation Center.

490

Thank you.

491

And I believe that they can be

applied to this situation as well.

492

number one, there are

no templated solutions.

493

Number two, multifaceted systems

are required to address them.

494

Number three, solutions must scale to

millions of members for true impact.

495

And number four, movement making is

required to transition ideas to reality.

496

So let's explore that because I

know what some of these topics, in

497

particular, this one, like I said,

there's so many different angles.

498

There's food insecurity, there's housing,

there's end of life conversations.

499

How can we apply some of those ideas that

you explored with KP to this situation?

500

Jennifer: Yeah.

501

so all of those challenges that

you just rattled off are, they're

502

part of complex adaptive systems.

503

and, they're, they're really.

504

There are problems that you have to

solve on a systems level, so like you can

505

solve one part of the problem and then

the problem itself may change, right?

506

So, we have to understand, and tackle

these problems, at an individual level.

507

At a community level, and

then a lot of times at like an

508

interconnected policy level.

509

you see this with, with climate

change, there's individual action,

510

but obviously there's, policy level

change that, that needs to occur.

511

and, and the work that I've been doing

with, food and nutrition insecurity.

512

is very similar, right?

513

Like there are programs that, how

do we just get individuals, who are

514

eligible enrolled in snap, which is what

was formerly called food stamps, to,

515

supplement their, their purchasing power.

516

there are other community level solutions

around getting folks, connected into

517

resources in the community and food banks

and all sorts of, supplemental programs.

518

And then I think there's also just

incredibly important work that needs

519

to be done at the policy level.

520

even asking like, how do we

expand eligibility for SNAP?

521

There are people who maybe should

be covered by this benefit.

522

and how do we begin to, have

reimbursement for food as medicine, right?

523

If we, we know that food impacts

health in, in very specific cases,

524

how do we, effectively lobby, a

number of different governmental

525

programs to, provide reimbursement?

526

So, I guess in short, none of

these problems can be solved by

527

a single actor in the system.

528

And so ways that we can bring

people together, that come from

529

very different perspectives is super

530

Kimberly: important.

531

I agree.

532

I wanted to, um, just explore

the whole, uh, idea of, of.

533

food has medicine, just,

534

I know you're, you're involved in

that, or you've engaged on that topic.

535

And, my comment about that is in,

as a caregiver from my aunt, she

536

was fortunate to be a part of the

537

Meals on Wheels

538

Kimberly: program and, she was able

to get healthy, nutritious food for

539

her, and I know it made a difference

for her in the end of her life.

540

And I know that nutrition in general is.

541

is a huge issue for elders.

542

some of them are living alone,

so they're not able to...

543

I think there's nutritionally or they're

not, in a space physically or emotionally.

544

I know with her, just getting her

to eat and getting her to even drink

545

water, what's a, what's a real issue.

546

So it seems like just education is a key

component of that, but I'd love to hear

547

more about, um, the food as medicine.

548

Jennifer: I think there's been.

549

a growing recognition.

550

In fact, I would say we, we

recognize, right, that food

551

contributes to better health outcomes.

552

And I don't think we need

to study that anymore.

553

I think, there are a couple

shifts that are happening.

554

one is, we need to be talking

more about nutrition security.

555

where you're getting the proper type

of food rather than just calories.

556

And, and there's a shift, although

there is not yet a clear definition of

557

what, nutrition security, looks like.

558

but there is also, a struggle,

to, find the resources, to...

559

to pay for a lot of these services.

560

And I think, a lot of the conversation

is, How does the medical system show up,

561

and, provide reimbursement, for a lot of

these programs and that's beginning with

562

a lot of pilot programs, but we're still

just not there, with clear dedicated.

563

funding streams, to pay for something

that we know we see the benefit, right?

564

far better to invest in providing

somebody with proper nutrition

565

to avoid type two diabetes.

566

then to put someone on a

medication, that they have to

567

take for the rest of their lives.

568

That's a thousand dollars a month, right?

569

Like it's very clear.

570

and like a lot of things were just

not there yet, but we've definitely

571

We definitely started the conversation

and that's, getting back to that

572

last question, like, this is where

people have to come together.

573

and last week I was involved in

some super exciting work, with food

574

banks that, are, are really coming

together to, to understand food

575

as medicine and, and their role.

576

And, I was incredibly impressed, right?

577

they recognize that.

578

There's a whole language and a whole

vocabulary with the health care system.

579

And they spent quite a bit of time,

getting up to speed to understand

580

the language of health care.

581

They invited me to come participate

and, share from a health care

582

perspective what that lens is.

583

And so, to the extent that

organizations can recognize.

584

That they need to bring in partners

and be cognizant of language and be

585

cognizant of external perspectives

and to actually seek them out.

586

that's how we're going to

solve these problems together.

587

it's unfortunately not in isolation.

588

It's not easy.

589

It takes a lot of time.

590

but that's how we're going to like really

address these like super gnarly problems.

591

Kimberly: You gotta, we gotta show up at

everybody and, we're all stakeholders.

592

So if you don't think you're a

stakeholder, I recommend you think again

593

and, think about it, not just from the

perspective of a loved one, but yourself,

594

what sort of future do you want to live

in where you're, an elder person in need

595

of support, healthcare, food, give it

some thought now so that you can start

596

planning and having these conversations.

597

Maybe there are some community

organizations you can be a part of, maybe

598

you can reach out and have conversations

with people like we're having today.

599

And, and I just strongly suggest people

just be proactive and take that step.

600

It'll help all of us.

601

Whatever step an individual will

take, it helps all of us because

602

we're all a part of the community.

603

There are a lot of resources online.

604

we'll have, Jennifer's information as

well, if you want to reach out to her.

605

And we are here with Jennifer Lieberman.

606

We are discussing envisioning the

future of elder care and healthy aging.

607

And I do want to shift and talk

about this whole idea of Optimism.

608

as you've indicated in, and as I

know, this topic is, it's so broad,

609

there's, there's a lot to do.

610

It's certainly not easy.

611

It's hard.

612

we get that.

613

But you, I know that you have considered

yourself an impatient optimist.

614

So tell us more about, that idea

because it's so intriguing and, and I

615

love it because I consider myself an

616

optimist.

617

but it's like, yeah, I'm

tapping my foot though, folks.

618

I'm saying let's, let's move this,

let's move this train forward.

619

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

620

I mean, my family would just tell you

this is, this is the way I'm wired,

621

but, if you've never been to the Bill

and Melinda Gates Discovery Center in

622

Seattle, it's really worth a visit.

623

and this is where I really

learned about inpatient optimists.

624

And I thought, man, that's just spot on.

625

I'm an optimist.

626

just by who I am.

627

and I think the inpatient part is so

important because, particularly spending

628

my entire career in healthcare, there are

just a lot of folks that are risk averse.

629

They want to study things more.

630

whether that's out of fear or a

desire to protect the status quo.

631

I feel like unless we push,

We're not going to make change.

632

and there are so many

things that need change.

633

and, part of this conversation that

we're having is you keep asking me,

634

Kimberly, what to do and whether

you're an individual or whether

635

you're an organization, I think

there's this tendency to say for

636

these really hard things, like, Oh,

somebody else needs to do something.

637

Like, as soon as.

638

X, Y, Z, then our

organization can do whatever.

639

And I think we just have

to get started, right?

640

Like, do you want somebody

else to shape your future?

641

Or do you, in a world of a lot

of uncertainty, want to define

642

that future for yourself?

643

And I, I think.

644

When we think of it in those terms,

it is scary to get started, but we

645

just have to, whether it's me as an

individual saying, gosh, maybe I need to

646

have this conversation with my family.

647

Or me and an organization

saying, Hey, there's a complex

648

challenge we need to solve.

649

are we going to wait for the federal

government to give us advice?

650

Or are we going to get started

defining what we need to see?

651

if you go to the Gates Discovery

Center in Seattle, they are

652

tackling so many social issues.

653

And what's so fascinating is

that everything there, they're

654

doing amazing work, Kimberly.

655

especially around the role of women.

656

there was an incredible exhibit last

time I was there about like women

657

holding the weight of the world.

658

And yes!

659

Every interactive exhibit is

about what you can do to get

660

started in your community.

661

and that's, that's what we have

662

Kimberly: to do.

663

Absolutely.

664

And I agree 100%.

665

I love it.

666

I think you're right.

667

There's this tendency to, tell me what

to do and, and to reach out to people.

668

And, and there's obviously

a need for that, depending

669

on what you're trying to do.

670

But at the same time.

671

what can you do, as an individual and

in navigating this whole issue with

672

my aunt, it was a lot of just my own.

673

I had to read, I had to

research, call people, right.

674

People do all this, do all that.

675

And I said, you know what, I'm

going to start a podcast because

676

I feel like I wish that I had

gotten some of this information.

677

I wish someone had handed me a book.

678

I didn't get it.

679

I didn't get that guide.

680

but you know, we're creating the book.

681

We're creating the

guides and you're right.

682

everyone look and think,

what can you do today?

683

It could be as simple as, you know,

writing down, I'm going to do something.

684

I'm going to take this

issue and make it my own.

685

I'm going to start to have a conversation.

686

I'm going to look at the

Gates Foundation information.

687

I'm going to learn about

innovation centers.

688

I'm going to learn about end of life.

689

I mean, it doesn't have to be

some huge, big dramatic thing.

690

It can just be one step forward, to move

the needle because like I said, we're all

691

going to have to take care of someone It's

just the way the numbers are bearing out.

692

So be prepared, and with the preparation,

you'll find that it'll ease your own

693

kind of discomfort around the topic.

694

and it'll just kind of put you in the

driver's seat and, you can be more in

695

charge of your own future and our own

future and our collective futures.

696

So.

697

You're right.

698

Jennifer's right.

699

Everybody get out there and and do

something and Let's not wait around

700

for someone else to to do what we

we know we can do ourselves And we

701

are here with Jennifer Lieberman

discussing and envisioning the future

702

of eldercare and healthy aging.

703

I do want to talk more about

your experiences in Africa.

704

I know that you have been working with,

that country and the needs going on there.

705

And I'd love to hear more about that and

what takeaways and any, insights that

706

could be applied to this conversation

that we're having now about eldercare..

707

Kimberly: Yeah,

708

Jennifer: gosh.

709

so, fortunately, global, food

insecurity was actually on the decline.

710

the trend was going in the right

711

And unfortunately, with a whole confluence

of factors, so, climate change, where,

712

in Africa, you've had both flood and

drought, with, with conflict, and

713

particularly with the Ukraine war, which

has been, such a, a challenge for food

714

supply, particularly, in, in Africa, and

then COVID, and the economics of the,

715

the supply chain and inflation, all of

those factors have just come together

716

to create a global hunger crisis.

717

And I think the UN estimates like

there are 50 million people, that,

718

that are really suffering right now.

719

So.

720

I had the opportunity earlier this

year, to be in Kenya with, World

721

Vision, which is an NGO and the U.

722

N.

723

World Food Program, looking, with, with U.

724

S.

725

donors, looking at ways, to, to kind

of expand the aperture for, for giving.

726

and also to look at, emergency response

and, unrestricted gifts that really help

727

organizations when there is a crisis, just

kind of go in and do what they need to do.

728

when a lot of the other funding sources.

729

have a lot of restriction.

730

And, when there is a crisis and

you just need to pivot, how do you

731

access, funds to, to really do that?

732

I guess your question is,

what, what did I see there?

733

that.

734

relates to this conversation.

735

so much like Kimberly, we could, we

could talk for about a day on this.

736

So, I, I think overall, like really big

picture, I'm just struck by, I think

737

the challenges in the developing world

are around just food security and.

738

In the U.

739

S.

740

It really is a conversation

about nutrition security.

741

it's just it's, it's in a different place.

742

and I think one could maybe make

the assumption that, the developed

743

world is in a better place.

744

I don't know.

745

I saw a lot of things and

experienced a lot of things.

746

where I think we have just so much, to

learn, and I'll give you an example of

747

where I was just absolutely blown away.

748

there's, there's a lot of research that

shows that societies with greater gender

749

equity do better, economically, they have

better outcomes for, for children, better,

750

representative government institutions.

751

and so along those lines,

a lot of organizations.

752

that really understand that the root cause

of, of hunger is, is a poverty issue.

753

And, and so a lot of the work, is

really also around gender equity

754

and, and engaging, women in society.

755

And I was in a really, remote village

and also one where, they were extremely

756

affected by climate change and hunger.

757

And I had a conversation with a school

teacher, that I will never forget.

758

This young man, Griffin, was probably 25.

759

and he wanted to talk to me,

about just how important access to

760

clean water, was for him because,

most of his students were girls.

761

And when they began menstruating,

they really needed access to clean

762

water so that they would feel

comfortable coming to school.

763

And so what, what just struck me

was here is this young man and he's

764

advocating for girls in his community.

765

and when I think about the U.

766

S.

767

We have a lot of conversations about

gender equity and the role of women.

768

And from my vantage point, we're having

those conversations among a lot of women.

769

And here's a 25 year old wants

to talk to me about this and

770

had absolutely absolutely.

771

no squeamishness about

talking about, these issues.

772

And so, that gave me a lot of

hope, for what is possible.

773

It's, it's a starting point.

774

I think there's a lot of work

that, that still needs to be done.

775

but, a lot, a lot, a lot to, to

learn, from, from those experiences.

776

Kimberly: Awesome.

777

Thank you so much for joining us today.

778

This conversation has been

amazing and I know it will

779

resonate with a lot of people.

780

Obviously timed well, seeing that

there's a lot of conversations and a lot

781

of movement on this front in general.

782

I do want to just pick up on what you

were talking about as far as hope,

783

I think hope is obviously important.

784

It's a through line for a lot of

big change in society in general.

785

And in particular, I want to talk to

you about this concept of wise hope

786

and if you can expand on what exactly

787

does that mean

788

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I think

as we tackle and I really saw this

789

particularly, you know, in the developing

world where things at times can feel

790

hopeless, like, it's just such an

uphill battle with, so many challenges.

791

But even here in the U.

792

S.

793

I think it can be at times for people who

work in this space feel kind of hopeless.

794

I think we need to keep showing

up and to maintain that hope that

795

we can, we can make a difference.

796

Well, at the same time,

acknowledging how challenging

797

some of these problems are food.

798

Insecurity is, is complex.

799

It is not easily solved.

800

so we need to honor the challenge in

front of us and yet keep showing up day

801

after day with that north star in mind.

802

That that we're going to solve

these issues, and to be in

803

fellowship with each other, right?

804

Kimberly, it's, for the people that

are working in this space, to be able

805

to have relationships and call people

and celebrate the small things, right?

806

The, the CMS, requirement that we at least

screen for social determinants of health.

807

We want, of course, The healthcare system

to address those, but let's celebrate

808

those victories, so that we can, we can

keep our energy, up as we tackle problems

809

that, that really do, need to be solved.

810

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

811

, I agree.

812

And just when I think about my own

experiences with my aunt, every day it

813

was, Like a new day and every step forward

was an accomplishment and every little

814

thing that happened We acknowledged and

I think I know that that really helped

815

us in navigating her her journey We just

kind of had to dial it all down and say

816

what is really needed in this moment.

817

Okay She needs to take her inhaler.

818

Okay, we need to get the oxygen whatever.

819

Okay, we need to go to the doctor

and celebrate You know what?

820

She was able to walk across

the room with the walker today

821

and didn't get as tired as the

822

day before.

823

Kimberly: There was no need

for a social media post and we

824

didn't have to blog about it.

825

It was just in those moments of

this is what we have to do and

826

I'm here serving that purpose.

827

It didn't always feel good, but

it was the right thing to do.

828

It was what was needed and I couldn't

have been more youthful for my

829

aunt and my family at that time.

830

And so...

831

I agree with you 100%.

832

We have to celebrate all of those.

833

I woke up today.

834

We woke up today.

835

You know, we'd make jokes about it.

836

It's like, how are you doing today?

837

Well, I'm up.

838

I'm here.

839

And that's cool because otherwise,

they're, there's so much that

840

feels like it's not moving.

841

But when you really think about it, a lot

positive, wonderful things are happening.

842

We have connected over

this, over this issue.

843

I have met amazing people

and have learned so much.

844

So keep going, everybody keep showing up.

845

We really need you.

846

and we have been here

with Jennifer Lieberman.

847

She's been breaking down so much, so much

wisdom and insight that she has gained.

848

In the healthcare field and from

her own personal experiences.

849

We love it.

850

Jennifer Lieberman can

be found on LinkedIn.

851

She's a great, great person to

connect with and she's very open.

852

So I recommend.

853

And you do that and Jennifer, we're

at the bottom of this conversation.

854

Thank you so, so, so,

so much for being here.

855

I really appreciate it.

856

I have to give a shout out to, to

Brandon's as who was, uh, you know,

857

one of the driving force of, of us

connecting, And for people who are

858

watching, please feel free to connect

with Jennifer and to explore the various

859

topics that we have talked about.

860

If you're interested in being a guest

on our show, you can reach out to us.

861

We'd love to hear more about what

people are doing in their communities.

862

You don't have to be a

quote unquote expert.

863

Love to hear from.

864

And we are going to close out episode

four of envisioning the future

865

of elder care and healthy living.

866

Join us next time for episode five.

867

We'll have another topic and another great

868

Kimberly: guest.

869

Thank you so much.

870

And we'll see you next