In this episode of The Blockchain Startup Show, I spoke with Ray Dogum, Founder and Host of Health Unchained, a healthcare meets blockchain podcast which has featured over 120 guests. Ray discusses how blockchain technology could revolutionize healthcare data sharing, scientific research, and patient care while exploring the challenges and opportunities in decentralized science.

From open-access research funding to AI-powered diagnostics, Ray discusses the possibilities for rebuilding healthcare and scientific research on Web3 infrastructure.

Episode Outline and Highlights:

[00:00:33] Introduction

• Harrison introduces Ray Dogum and Health Unchained
• Overview of DeSci and its scope beyond healthcare

[02:32] Early Distributed Computing in Science

• Discussion of SETI and CureCoin
• Historical context of decentralized science initiatives

[04:40] Evolution of DeSci

• From early concepts to current implementations
• Role of projects like Vita DAO and Molecules

[28:00] Data Collection and AI in Healthcare

• Real-world evidence gathering
• Integration of AI in medical diagnostics
• Privacy and security considerations

[33:37] The Future of Healthcare Data

• Vision for individualized care through data sharing
• Potential for data-driven health insurance models
• Balancing privacy with research needs

[45:00] Building in DeSci

• Opportunities for founders and businesses
• Importance of community building
• Integration of AI in DeSci projects

[52:16] Current Challenges in DeSci

• Data sharing and user engagement
• Peer-to-peer science collaboration
• Open access publishing

Transforming Scientific Research Through Blockchain

Ray emphasizes how DeSci could revolutionize research funding, data sharing, and scientific collaboration. By leveraging blockchain technology, researchers can create more transparent, efficient systems for conducting and sharing their work, while maintaining privacy and security.

The Future of Healthcare Data Management

The conversation highlights the potential for blockchain to transform healthcare data management, enabling individuals to control their medical information while contributing to research. This shift could lead to more personalized care and innovative funding models for scientific research.

Handle this industry's greatest challenges and make the impact you've always dreamed of.

Health Unchained is, how would I describe it? I would say, you could almost say that Ray was the disciple of DeSci [00:01:00] before DeSci was a thing. Um, do you think that's an accurate description, Ray?

It can be how the data is stored and shared amongst the community as well. So, um, many definitions of DeSci out there. So, um, you know, I'm happy to share mine and dive deeper into it, but I suggest people also do their own research into it because there's a lot to

DeSci and I'm not going to be able to explain all of it in this podcast, I'm sure.

[00:02:38] Ray Dogum: SETI, uh, the like interplanetary communication SETI, sort of.

Um, and then they would send that to, you know, but it was a, it was a distributed effort essentially. And I think you had a couple of things like that that followed.

[00:03:53] Harrison Wright: Is there anything?

[00:04:03] Harrison Wright: Man, that's interesting. So, um, so now, so currently.

And now, it's really interesting what they're all doing.

Think of [00:05:00] like a block works, but with a marketing agency on the back end for client projects as well. That's kind of what it was. It was a block works of biotech. And, um, I remember there was this talk that one of the marketing agency people gave that got a standing ovation and personally, I thought it was incredibly cringe and his talk was around, do you remember that TV show, Chernobyl?

[00:05:26] Harrison Wright: Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:27] Harrison Wright: Well, it was, uh,

[00:05:30] Harrison Wright: yeah,

[00:05:32] Harrison Wright: yeah. So he was talking about the show. And he was talking about how, what the show demonstrated is that scientists are perfect seekers of truth that are held back by the, it was like this whole pandering thing. Uh, hero worship of scientists. And personally, I just found it extremely cringe because what I found is, and there was a lot of that going on and there's certain professions where people think, Oh, these people that do this must be selfless, which is not true at all.

Like Kyogen, Thermo Fisher, et cetera, they would spend millions of dollars a year on content that would mostly be read by academic scientists. Cause the idea was they would get brand loyalty while they were doing their PhD and then 10 years later, when they work in a biotech company, they'd buy their stuff.

It was kind of a long term investment for them. So the majority, I'd say about. 60 percent of our audience was academic scientists, and then it would be people working in industry, PI's, lab managers, things like that. Um, but the more I got to know that space, the more I realized that what almost any academic scientist cares about 10 times more than they care about anything else is where's my next grant money coming from.

[00:07:07] Ray Dogum: yeah, a lot of good points there. Um, there's definitely this insecurity amongst, uh, academic professors who aren't tenured as well. So they're definitely looking for all the grants they can get, uh, and all the publications they can publish. Uh, so I think those are definitely. Very important for them, uh, which makes sense given the current incentivized structure that you know universities have right now and have had for I would say like decades at least. but what's interesting about that is especially the funding aspect of it DeSci actually is one of the most useful components of DeSci I would say in this space right now is the funding, um, being able to Get, you know, submit application on a website essentially, and then curate money or, be able to get money from all over the world from people who actually may be [00:08:00] affected by this disease or whatnot.

So that's kind of interesting as opposed to just, looking for grants from the NIH, which is currently now in question, you know, their grants, uh, the federal administration is looking into that and seeing how they can reduce costs. If we were to lose, you know, most of NIH grants, what academic science, and even institutional research, science, what are they going to do? are they going to get their grants from? It's not going to come from their own pockets, I don't think. So either they're going to be very efficient with how they use money or they're going to find new alternative sources of funding. certainly I don't think anyone wants science to halt, slow down.

I think we want it. See more science and learn more about our universe and everything around it. Um, so yeah, very curious to see how the next four years will end up

You know, people will put up a Kickstarter and then they'll grow a game studio out of nothing by building things that people want. And you know, there, it's a decentralized mode of funding. Right? And then you also see the same in crypto, it's starting to become calling in to do ICOs. You know, for the longest time, if you had anywhere on your resume that you were involved in an ICO, no one would want go near you.

That's how low status it was. But now. you're starting to see people use these sort of decentralized funding mechanisms again to solve the, solve the, you're seeing with, uh, not all of them, but people are getting annoyed with certain VC backed projects, launching tokens that they're just enrich the insiders.

if you try and get in and run as retail, you're just going to get screwed over. So people are telling you this mechanism, it's the same story, just applied in different places. And we see it time and time again, I think.

You're talking about community networks that are developing. So these are people that are making DeScisions to go out there and acquire these tokens for the purposes of either utilizing them somehow. There must be some utilization them. Um, but. To be honest in most cases it's all speculation thinking that the coin will just go up Um, and that's just something I think innate in human beings is we want to be able to Increase the amount of resources we have and easily and I think that know the stock market Insiders have been kind of doing this for many years [00:11:00] in the stock market.

You could, you can even argue for like, you know, uh, many decades. Uh, obviously there've been regulations to hold on a lot of corruption and insider trading, and that's worked relatively well. Um, but in the crypto space, it's much harder to do that because a lot of the transactions can be obfuscated or the identities of the people doing the transactions can be obfuscated. um, But then again, also once it's on the blockchain, it cannot be removed. So there's also that potential transparency in there.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I think that although there are a lot more ICOs or token generating events, again, we're seeing now sort of like the cycle, um, we have to be careful out there. So do your own research, make sure what you're investing in, what you think you're investing in, makes sense to you and don't just click on a Twitter link and invest in it.

[00:12:03] Harrison Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't want to get too off topic here, but you even have to be careful of PDFs now. Oh, let me send you my resume on Telegram. Maybe once I know you better.

There's very few jobs out there that don't require you to log into something. um, going to have to adapt. And I think people are doing that relatively well. just considering the number of users who are on the internet and the amount of activity that's been going on. So this is, you know, we're talking macro level stuff here right now.

[00:13:35] Harrison Wright: Definitely. Yeah, I'm waiting for the day when every login is Connect Wallet.

So there is cost benefit analysis here and like how we secure our wallets. Yeah. Um, of course, if you are a company managing multi billion dollar accounts, you're going to want to have some sort of multi signer, multi signature sort of wallet in place. Um, do you want to have a, you know, a series of processes in place to move large amounts of cryptocurrency?

How do you make sure that there is no way that someone can sort of steal, or coerce you to give your really protected private key.

[00:15:20] Ray Dogum: Yeah. Super terrifying. And you know, when, I mean, I've never been in that situation and thankfully I hope never to be in that situation, but I can imagine the fear right in the person's, um, through the person's mind. It's like, okay, you know, no amount of money the world is worth dying. So they're. Going to comply with these, kidnappers. And then I think in the case of ledger wallet, law enforcement was actually able to recover, the passages. I think it was, the ledger person as well as their loved one or a wife or something [00:16:00] like that.

[00:16:01] Ray Dogum: yeah, he did have his finger cut off. So he did lose something.

Thank you. Um, I'm sure he's thinking about security and safety in a very different way going forward, uh, and that's going to hopefully cascade into other CEOs, other high level executives, thinking about the same, thinking about this in the same way and really making sure that their systems are protected.

But one thing you have to consider is, you know, law enforcement came into action and was able to recover. But what happens in a world where we're cutting out the costs or we're cutting out the, the budgets of law enforcement and it become private security enforcement. And then if there's private security enforcement and there's potentially private, mercenaries out there too, who can potentially request.

Um, I think that's just unnecessary. And, you know, it's, it's short. short term thinking, very short sighted. Um, but yeah, again, everyone has different incentives and different people are living in different situations. And sometimes this is the only way for some members of society to, to, to get by. So, um, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to preach too much on law enforcement anymore, but that's sort of my high level thoughts on that.

[00:18:00] Ray Dogum: No, it's not a lie. But one thing I would say is you are online, you have a podcast, you talk to blockchain people, so it's, I mean, it's very easy for that person you met in person to just look you up and see what you are doing, in the space. And potentially, you know, if they think you're worth it as a target, they could set something up potentially.

So. again, you have to really consider the in the ledger case, you know, ledgers, one of the most well known hardware wallets out there globally. I think these people are targeting high level executives, but we also don't know about all the targets that have happened or all like the hostage situation that have happened ransomware. It's not all reported, so there's a lot of consideration there too.

My LinkedIn says I live in Miami. If someone really was motivated to figure out where I live, I'm sure they could do that. You know, I wonder if they're, you know, Mexico is known for its security issues, right? It's not as bad as people say, but you know, they could look through. Oh, what if I search LinkedIn for crypto in this specific city?

What might I find? Well, no one's going to find me if they do that. and I don't think I'm big and important enough to, be some massive target that everyone's going to seek out. But I think it's just, hey, easy little things you can do to dramatically lessen your risk. like these people that, show up to Bitcoin Miami or whatever with giant Rolexes and this, to me, that's just dumb.

Um, Something tells me that the situation is going to keep getting worse for a while before it gets better

So it is scary. It's definitely. Probably going to get worse just because, um, it seems like there are more targets. So there's more potential for it to get worse. Um, yeah, but I don't know. Uh, that's not too familiar with that sort of space, the black markets of crypto. I know it's obviously a big deal in crypto. One thing [00:21:00] that was interesting that I noticed was. the founder of Silk Road, Ross Ulbrich. He was pardoned recently by Donald Trump and now he's free man. I'm very curious to see what he does as a free man, what he's going to be doing as a free man. just because I don't know, I'm sure, he's probably dropped all his ties to Silk Road and doesn't want anything to do with that given like oh, I think the 10 years of. imprisonment or so, but are others, who are involved in the web, very involved. you know, that market, I think is continuing to grow just because, uh, it can, just because crypto, the nature of crypto and things and how things go, it's not a bank, so you can bank yourself. Um, there are more tariffs, In place.

[00:23:12] Harrison Wright: I just want to tie a loop on something before we come back to that, and that you accurately assessed we drifted quite off the intended topic here. But the reason we got to talking about security in the first place was when you brought up, uh, you brought up private key management. And I think that's an interesting point that is relevant here, because how I used to think about this, and I'm sure I'm not alone, was, hey, banks control your money.

That's bad. Now you control your money. That's good. But I think the reality is a little more nuanced than that. And what we will see and are starting to see is what crypto technology enables you to do is have a range of choices for how to manage your keys. Okay, you can self custody the entire thing if you want.

in the end, I think the optimal solution for most people is probably not going to be full self custody. Uh, if nothing else for the, from a security perspective, right? Or if you get kidnapped, sorry, I can't give you my money. I don't have access to it. you just make yourself an attack vector. but yeah, like you point out, it's not just.

It's not just losing access to your money, but what would you even do if you lost access to the only copy of your medical records?

No, no one can help you. So I, I'm not a fan of total self custody people for their health records specifically. Um, I think that especially older people, uh, where, you know, they have a tendency to maybe misplace their private key or. they just don't understand how to use the technology. Perhaps. Um, obviously many older people these days are very [00:26:00] technology savvy. Um, but again, if you start to think about certain mental diseases, like Alzheimer's, dementia, these things can impact your ability to self custody. That's really important to consider. you can do multi sig with your family members or, um, Some other, some other sort of. custodian based, uh, processor system can be set, you know, developed for you.

[00:26:48] Ray Dogum: for sure. Absolutely. So beyond funding, I think you can consider like peer to peer publishing as an aspect of decentralization decentralizing where the [00:27:00] data is stored specifically so that it's, more easily. Shared with other members of the scientific community. I think that's extremely important. A use case. Uh, one example of a company, like DeScide labs, I think, for example, is a really good example of that. you can think of DeSci for, Marketplaces, more generally speaking, in terms of, let's say you want to sell your genetic information or your healthcare data, you know, you can, you can do that on a blockchain or on a cryptocurrency based system. this way you have full control of your records, you know, where and when it's being utilized. You can revoke the access to those records whenever you think. Is necessary and also be reimbursed for any future monetization of your own records. So that's something that's not currently in place for most people, they don't [00:28:00] actually get rewarded for sharing their health records. If anything, they share it for free and potentially the researchers or pharmaceutical companies who end up maybe developing a drug based on that data would benefit. Um, yeah, so it's really hard to say the other thing is the likelihood of your data being used to create a new drug, although small is not zero, right? So I think it's, and the likelihood of your data being the most valuable piece, let's say, for example, in a rare disease situation, you know, just 10 or 15 people with a specific rare disease. So as a person, your data is extremely valuable. how valuable really depends on so many factors, but marketplaces like that, I think just piqued my interest

They have their use, but I take as few of them as possible. Uh, as my general principle here. Um, I have to take, uh, medicine for epilepsy. I never talk about that, but yeah, I've, I've had epilepsy since I was 17. I haven't had a seizure in, no, sorry. I've had it since I was 13. I haven't had a seizure since I was 17 or thereabouts, but I've always taken the medicine ever since.

Cause every time I talk to anyone about it, it's, uh, Hey. You could come off it and you might be fine, but there's a 50 percent chance you wouldn't be fine. And if you come off it and you start having seizures again, it's possible that if we put it back on, it won't work anymore, which is to me far worse than the alternative.

But if you could, you know, shared data and LLMs could look for patterns in it. Maybe you wouldn't need clinical trials in a traditional sense to figure this stuff out because you could just match patterns with what was happening and you could control for things without a human researcher having to be involved because the LLM could sort through the data.

I wonder if you could have extremely powerful monitoring and data. Cause at the moment, you know, do you remember the food pyramid? So

[00:30:43] Harrison Wright: according to the food pyramid, we should eat, what, 80 percent of our, uh, our food and carbs and, you know, have a tiny amount of, I mean, how ridiculous is that?

[00:31:06] Ray Dogum: And I would even argue in terms of the food pyramid is every individual is different too. So maybe that pyramid does work for some people. And I think we should, that should be okay. I think what we need to do is individualize. care, and when you talk about like real world evidence or real world data I think that's ultimately the holy grail of what d health is To me the idea of being able to for each individual to be able to share like a daily basis sort of thing their vital stats their Dietary intake their activity level their social interactions, basically the digital twin of you um Are the digital your digital self? online privately to some sort of federated, system where AI can essentially review the whole population set of data [00:32:00] over time. So when you, if you do have an adverse event, let's say from your epilepsy medicine, it could indicate, you know, what, what time that was, when that was, were there any other sort of confounding factors around you?

Our heart rate would be one thing. steps, diet, uh, you could ECG, all these different types of data points can be collected and shared specifically. I think that's key. and then you'll basically be able, theoretically, again, the holy grail of this whole D Health movement your health insurance premium will be paid by your own data, essentially. So you'll be able to live your life. unlimited good health care for free because you're providing your health care information.

[00:33:40] Ray Dogum: yeah, no, absolutely. This is sort of something I've been thinking about for a very long time. Uh, but it's really difficult to nail down, you know, essentially, uh, especially when you talk about centralized organizations and governments doing this, because that'll be really, really challenging. Um, But I can see it working with DeSci, DeHealth, [00:34:00] Citizen Scientists. It's just a matter of how do you build something that can work across the board for everyone. So that's one of the challenging part. Like, is it a product? You have to integrate it into existing systems. So like, you can't just build something and people will come.

You have to build it in a way that existing traditional systems can plug into it, essentially. Yeah, no, I'd love to go in deeper about that and like the concepts and how a typical day would be in the future for these types of, individuals.

Because you hear from my accent, come from Europe. now I'm on this side of the world. You'll find people in Europe, They'll have to turn their nose up at [00:35:00] the American healthcare system, and people in the States will turn their nose up at the European healthcare system, and they're both correct. The Europeans will typically, oh no, we get it for free.

But when it's not free, it comes out of the 70 percent taxes you pay to the government. And then you have to go on a waiting list for nine months. And then it's, there's so many downsides with that. But then the U. S. system is insane as well. I know people who pay multiple thousands of dollars a month. For coverage that doesn't even cover the first ten thousand dollars And then I live in latin america, right where you kind of as long as you have some money I think it's the best of both worlds because it's an actual private market system and for us it's affordable So we have, we have, uh, you know, health insurance that is, you can get a local plan here, which is vastly cheaper than this, like, probably by a factor of 10.

We have international health insurance, which, the reason we have that is, let's say you pick up a pre existing condition, well, it's actual insurance, not Obamacare, so they have, they're not going to cover you for that, right? Um, so if we were to move country at any future point, we can keep the plan, that's why we have it.

As you would expect but you know, if you want to go see the doctor here You can go and see an oncologist or a neurologist or whoever you want the next day and pay forty dollars for the appointment Now i'll spend that even give you their whatsapp, you know in america doctors will give you their whatsapp You just message them anytime you imagine that.

[00:36:40] Harrison Wright: the down

[00:36:42] Harrison Wright: I was going to say the downside of it is for us. It's affordable If you're a working class person in mexico, you can't afford that stuff So there's no out of the current paradigm. There is no system that works for everybody They will have major downsides.

It's already been playing a big role here in terms of being able to, you know, I don't want to say self diagnose because I think that's very dangerous actually, but to help with most cases you can use And again, I'm not a physician so I could be absolutely wrong here But I think that there are many ways that AI can streamline the diagnostic process diagnostic journey for many patients and potentially also save money along the way doctors Are extremely important because they're able [00:38:00] to translate a lot of the complex science and medicine and research that's going on in the world the patient and make it clear to them and help them understand it. But that activity is actually, I know AI is, there's no human touch with AI. And that's kind of the one thing that I think doctors and nurses and nurse practitioners, all. Um, are able to do is empathize, able to like, listen to the patient and, be with them like in person. I think there's value there, but why do they need such a really such a high degree, to be able to be with the person?

It can detect based on the cough, what's going on potentially. So there's a lot more involved and it can organize all [00:40:00] that information into a medical record. So it's not just a transcript dialogue. It's data taken in by AI and then, extracted by the AI. And then essentially. put into place into like a dashboard, into like a, uh, easily readable, place for the provider and the patient. And I guess you can say the medical team to just take a look at and easily identify what's wrong with the patient or what's going on urgently with the patient that needs to be right away. and you can set up alarm systems for that. There's a lot of notification systems, to prevent any serious major issues.

[00:40:45] Ray Dogum: Exactly. And how many doctors can read all of the medical journals out there? None of them. They can not read all of them. It's just impossible. Uh, but AI could, AI could read all of them. And I know it's scary [00:41:00] to think about that, but I think it's also great. I mean, you're going to be able to help patients faster.

To me, it makes a lot of sense.

Which just looked completely cringe. You know, the LinkedIn posts with the 10 emojis and the 50 hashtags, like you can just spot 'em a mile away. Um, but they're dramatically better than they were two years ago. And now I, I'm, I'm sitting, I use Claude all day. I use it as my deal co-pilot. I use it to little bit.

I, I don't write my LinkedIn posts or tweets or stuff with AI and I never would. But I use it for things like the show notes for the podcast.

[00:41:53] Harrison Wright: Not, not for now. Um, yeah, like things like podcast show notes. Yeah, I'll use it for that because [00:42:00] A, again, creating show notes is mostly about pattern matching and it does a better job of that quicker than I could.

Um, but also from a quality point of view, I mean, nobody cares that the show notes are the most amazing show notes ever. They don't, they just need to describe what's going on and link to the thing. So I'm okay using AI for that, but beyond, you know, beyond the content, I'll give it data metrics, KPIs from the business that spot the patterns in this.

Okay. Sometimes I'll bring up, Oh yeah, that's okay. I'll take a look at that. Um, so for those use cases, I think it can be very effective.

And, um, you know, you're not putting garbage out there,

[00:43:03] Ray Dogum: Yeah, it's, they're sort of predictable in that way sometimes. but you can also customize them too, which is, you know, own thing too. I'm thinking about a lot of corporations, like, for example, McDonald's, right? McDonald's for most cases can probably get away with a lot, uh, using GPT, uh, chat, GPT, just because it's, you know, there's. risk there. You're ordering fries and burgers. so if you wanted to approach like a drive thru and talk to the drive thru and tell it what you want, instead of talk to a person, I mean, what's the risk there, they might order an extra fry for you or something you can, you can see on the dashboard or on your screen exactly what you're ordering.

[00:44:02] Harrison Wright: Really? Well, I haven't seen that. It's out of thing.

[00:44:35] Harrison Wright: I'm personally not a fan of this development, but I'm sure it has its benefits.

There are machines essentially zapping the weeds off of plants with little lasers, We're going Towards a direction in society where robots will do all the work that people didn't want to do but then what are we going to be doing right? Is it just are we just going to be purely socializing all day long with other humans and just hanging out and being artists I think that's potentially You Uh, the direction we're going into, but, I don't know, speculating now.

And I didn't really see where else to go. I was kind of trapped. So my motivation at the time was I need to get out of this at any cost. [00:46:00] So my, my whole thing was driven by how can I make money as quickly as possible so I can retire and now, you know, we're several years later and I actually enjoy what I do.

Some days more than others, which I think is true for anyone. But I think about, okay, we're on the cusp of a situation where that can actually occur. I'm thinking, what would I do?

I mean, there's many jobs related to chemistry, but not one where you can just take videos of doing relatively, um, know, controlled experiments with video, um, your own time, essentially how you want to do it, where you want to do it. I think that's the cool thing about creator economy. [00:47:00] You can take any niche interest and turn it into a business. I mean, the concept of using blockchain for healthcare. When I first started health on chain was, I mean, people laughed at me. Yeah, it was, it was something of a joke because blockchain was associated with basically just Bitcoin and fake cryptocurrencies that are going to get your, um, know, get your computer hacked or something.

There's a lot of ability to own your own assets in the gaming world. as opposed to having a centralized company able to take away your special sword. not much of a gamer, but I just want to use that example as a very adopter of blockchain, um, and low risk. No, it's not highly regulated.

The gaming industry as it, as healthcare is, even finance is more regulated. The gaming, far as I know. So yeah,

[00:49:06] Ray Dogum: absolutely. So if you're looking to start a business in crypto or in DeSci, I think it's super important to understand how you're to build your community and what that means is. If you are generating a token for your company, you have to be able to understand what that tokenomics is going to look like, not just in the next two to three months, but really years the line and thoughtfully your initial users.

[00:50:38] Harrison Wright: I wonder what, if you would actually analyze it, which is another thing we could use LLMs for. What percentage of crypto businesses are really just vaporware with a token pump?

What are the big sort of problem spaces that need to be solved right now that could be solved with DeSci?

They share their data, uh, then After a couple of months, they realize, you know, they're not getting enough value from it. They just sort of stop. They don't want to share. Another part of the problem with that is where a lot of these D side companies haven't been audited. Uh, so the way they actually potentially could use your [00:53:00] data might not be clear unless they're totally open source. you know how to read code, it's, it's still a danger to share your data with some of these companies. So please do your due diligence and, uh, know what you're, you know, getting yourself into. Um, another part of D side that I think is important is just this concept of, um, peer to peer, to peer science happening.

So scientists sharing data, not just on themselves as individual scientists, but let's call it research data, investigational research data, sharing it with the community in a way that they're recognized as one of the contributors of this pool of data.

Open access is something that is enabled with DeSci. and you know, let's continue to grow.

[00:55:05] Ray Dogum: Exactly. So open science, this concept of open science has been around for a while of sharing even pre DeSci, pre blockchain, but there was no way to implement it. It was just not possible. Uh, the technology to make that really happen. Did it, it wouldn't work. Uh, but now with blockchain and these decentralized. Technologies you can build an open science platform. Research hub is a good concept. I think it's worth sharing with the audience. Uh, and I think you know what they're doing is essentially, um, building a community where you can have different scientists collaborating with each other. ask questions, you could submit your papers. Um, so it's a really interesting future. Hopefully that we're entering. Um, It's just a matter of communicating how to do that, ironing out all the [00:56:00] details, all the edge cases need to be considered because, you know, you don't want to publish bad data and have it go through iterations and other scientists using that bad data and it'll, that can also be wasteful too.

[00:56:25] Ray Dogum: Thank you. Yeah. And if anyone's interested in learning more about the size space, definitely check out a health on chain podcast. I recorded over 120 episodes with people who are also passionate about making healthcare a better place using blockchain technology. And I think, you know, we're all observers of the future. So we're all waiting to see what will happen. Um, And Harrison, I just want to thank you again so much for your time and for letting me be on your podcast and talking about, um, DeSci and all these things yeah, thanks to the audience for [00:57:00] also listening.

[00:57:08] Ray Dogum: Yeah. Um, LinkedIn is probably the best way. Uh, Ray Dogum, you could find me there. Uh, my website is healthunchained. org. You can also. set up a meeting with me if you'd like to chat and I'm happy to listen to your concepts and ideas. And I think there's so many ways to build here. So I'm excited for the future.

[00:57:41] Ray Dogum: Absolutely. Harrison.

[00:57:49] Narrator: [Outro]