In this episode, we dive deep into the world of Odyssey Teen Camp, a safe and inclusive space for LGBTQ+ teens. Listen as Heather and her guest, Adam Simon, the Executive Director of Odyssey Teen Camp, explore the life-changing impact of the camp, the fascinating topic of why 90% of transgender kids at Odyssey Teen Camp were assigned female at birth and the possible influence of societal expectations and the internet. This was a great conversation about the importance of understanding and embracing the coming-out process for both teens and their parents.

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Welcome back to Just Breathe. And if you're here for the first time, I'm so glad you're here. This is a space where you can be exactly where you are in your process. No judgment is allowed only curiosity and self compassion. I had breakfast this morning with a very dear friend who reminded me the value of having a place to come to where you can learn or feel validated and whatever feelings you may be having. Or just be. I think we often forget the importance and benefits of just taking a moment to breathe, to sit in discomfort or contemplation, or feel all the feelings that we're having. I invite you to take this time for whatever you need right now. As you breathe and allow, I want to share a little background on today's guest. Adam Simon is the executive director of Odyssey Teen Camp. Every summer, OTC welcomes around 330 teenagers 80%, of whom identify as LGBTQIA+, with the large majority of them being on some kind of gender journey. OTC did not start out that way. But over time, it has organically grown into a beautiful welcoming space allowing teens to just be themselves. Even though today, the large majority of the camp identifies as LGBTQIA+ that has only been the case for the last three or four years. Adam says, I think we are pretty much the same wacky camp we have always been. The kids are still insecure, creative, sensitive, wonderful, sometimes struggling a funny teens that have been coming to camp for over 20 years. They are just bending or breaking every gender stereotype out there. The minute that many teens come to our camp, they look around and cannot believe their eyes. When they see everyone is queer like they are. I think that alone can be life changing. They recognize that not only are they not alone, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. As always, I will include all the ways you can reach out to Adam and learn more about Odyssey Teen Camp in the show notes and on my website. I have a feeling that you like me, will be touched and engaged by Adam's vulnerability and compassion. And so very grateful that he has created such a beautiful space for our kids.

Parenting your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast, transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath. And know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the just breathe nets. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey. I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Let's see what we can do in that time. And and then, you know, go from there. Yeah. So

I listened to one with where you had a panel of three people talking about non binary and it was interesting. You didn't talk too much. They talked a lot but it was you know Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I didn't talk I don't know that I talked at all that was that was so much fun. That was that panel took me like eight months to get pulled together to get a day that worked for everybody. And I really wanted the daughter of this that lady and then my friend Hate who was the older person? I mean, she's not old by any means. But the older older.

She was. She was only 46. I thought she was gonna say she was 80. But

yeah, I know. She's so cute. Yeah. So I mean, it took me. And that was that was my daughter. Right? Yeah, grace is my daughter. And then Autumn is the daughter of a lady who took my course. And we became really close in the time that she was taking my course. And, and, you know, I love giving young people a voice. So that was not that was that I was just like, here's your here's your place, go for it. Wow, that was that was really fun.

I was gonna say, I have a feeling you've covered just about everything, frankly, even though I know you still go. I mean, you've covered a lot of stuff, obviously, you know, but I guess you're getting new listeners all the time, and all of that, but you've covered a lot of stuff. You know,

I have covered a lot of stuff. Yes, I'm actually going back right now and doing a an intent. Like, I think one of the, it's maybe like episodes two and four. Like, right at the beginning, I did the whole coming out process like talking about the coming out process for for kids, and then coming out process for parents. And those are two of my most popular episodes, people are always asking questions. And so I was like, well, I need to do like a deeper dive on these. So I'm doing so it'll be a 12 part series of one episode for each stage and really like going into it a lot deeper.

No, I have a feeling I have a feeling for you. For you personally, the coming out process, even though I think you said it's a lifetime thing. It was a big deal for you and your family, obviously. And it became something that really, you know, yeah,

yeah, well, I think you know, even if it's not like it, I think it, it helps explain a lot of things. So if you're like, like, I was on this call on Friday, and with these, with parents, and they were talking about these different things that I'm like, Oh, well, that's completely, like, appropriate for this stage of where they are like that is appropriate. You know, what they're feeling or a developmental behavior or whatever, like explaining and then for, for them, I'm like, this is very, you know, very normal that you're feeling like your whole world is blowing up like that is normal. This is what happens, like, there's nothing wrong with you. So I think it's the whole, like, normalizing it, right? Like, no, this is, you know, that was like, such a huge thing for me. So regardless of where you are on the spectrum of, of shock, I think it's good to it's always good to be like, Oh, okay, that's what that is. So not a big deal, right? Or, This is what the like this, these are the kinds of supports that I need to find for my child or for myself. So, and I'm very big on like, this is not like you are not to dump your crap on your kid. Like, you know, that's because people really want to do that. And I'm like, they're 14, like, you know, like, one of the things and I was in this, I mean, this causes so frustrating, but this dad was like, you know, they they can't even brushed their teeth every day. How can they decide that they're transgender? And I was like, Oh, the number of things that are wrong in that sense, like right now.

No, no, I remember we I remember reading in one of those books by the teacher, she said, like a parent's job is to hold their kids anxiety for them. So they dump it on us. And we hold it for them. We're not supposed to dump it on, you know, and right. And it's okay to get angry and all of that stuff, right, like, right, I have. I had a boat. We had a bowling reunion in New York City the other day for for campers. And I just talked to one of the mothers who came first and she said, the hardest thing she's dealing with is that her daughter keeps talking about Don't call her by her dead name, her dead name, her dead name. She said. She said every time I hear that she goes, I think to myself, do you know how many hours your father and I spent in bed reading through to come up for that with that dead name? That was four months of work and love to? And I try and I get it but it's okay for her to be angry about it. She just doesn't need to say it to her kid. Right. Okay.

Well, she has to go through her process. Right. Like, absolutely. And you know, you have to let that go. Because yeah, and it's such a hard, hard thing. I struggle with that with it with grace, who you know, the other night at dinner, she looked at my husband and I she was like, you know, I would really appreciate it. It would be great if you guys could really try to start calling me by Grayson and using they more often and I was like salutely Like, and thank you, and thank you for understanding that this is hard. It's not you know, and for any parent, it's, this is a, you're not gonna get it overnight, like, all of a sudden, you're not going to be like, Oh, okay, pay them or, you know, he them or, you know, whatever it is no parent, we're slow man can't have to, like, look at us a little slack. I was like, Guys, come on, I'm over 30 It's just downhill from there.

No, when they fill out the application for the camp application, you know, they put in their kids legal name, and then they usually put in brackets and other name, but they call me on the phone and they say, I don't want that name, you know, their birth name to appear anywhere, you know, they're very nervous, I try and tell them, it doesn't really matter. Because the day they come, they're going to tell us their you know exactly what they want. And that's all we're going to call them pronoun, whatever. But in there, you could see how scared so really, we're going to call them by their the wrong name, you know? Absolutely, absolutely.

And I think too, you know, just having watched. And like you, like you, you see how the kids like how they're experiencing this, right, like kind of the, this process for them. And it is it is very intense. And it is a very big deal. It's not something that they're taking lightly. And they have thought about this, their new name, right, they've thought about this name, this name means something to them. And I think that's something that's, you know, well worth talking about, as you know, as well. And it's hard when, you know, you and I can see it from we have the luxury of being able to see it from both sides, right. So it's kind of like holding it for both, like, it's a both. And

that's a really good point. And I never really thought that how much time they may have put into it even so that's a really good point for me to think about. Because sometimes it feels pretty random, you know, whatever. But maybe it's not, you know, yeah.

Well, I'm sure there are cases where it is very random. But I think there are other cases where it is something that there's there's great meaning to whatever that you know, whatever their name is, their chosen name is so right. fascinating conversation in and of itself, right. Like, what made you pick this name, like does what is the meaning? Just like, because I think that would help parents who are like I spent all this time, you know, I mean, I did I totally know. We all know, right? We took us all forever, unless we're like naming our kids after ourselves. This process is a process. So I think it would be a great thing for kids to be like, No, this is right. I put this, I put this thought in it.

You know, we've had a lot of lately, Planet names. We had like four Mars's, and, you know, things, and we always had, and we've had a lot of planets. We've had a lot of Neptune's and things. It's interesting. I don't know exactly where that came from. But yeah, good. Well, I'll remember that when they, you know, yeah.

The other thing that I've noticed, too, and I that I think is quite fascinating, is sometimes there's like a transitional name. So there's, you know, the the dead name, and then there's a transitional name. And then there's their chosen name. And I think that's really fascinating to

you think it's a process just like coming out is or whatever, to some extent.

I mean, there's got to be something, some research out there on this, or somebody who knows, you know, certainly more than I do, anecdotally, you know, I

write I also wonder why 90% of our, you know, transgender kids and maybe we have 250 or more, why 90% were assigned female at birth for us. And you know, more so than and, you know, we have both, but 90% of our transgender campers are assigned female at birth. I mean, I do think girls in general are more adventurous they're more brave when it comes to all of this, you know, kind of stuff and going to camp in some ways. But it's a real big difference in our camp, at least percentage wise. That is

fascinating. I wonder if it has something to do with just I mean, girls typically develop before boys, right? Even though gender when you think about gender, you really I mean, gender can be known as early you know, really, really early. But

that is a fascinating, huh? Right. Like I've worried personally if it's because girls look around at what's being offered to them, and just look around and go, No, I do wonder about that. I also wonder what they've seen on the internet. And I don't know any of this. But whether they've seen things, whether it's sexualized or whatever, and they just look on, not for me, I don't know if any of that's true, but that's where I go sometimes, you know?

Yeah, that would be an interesting, I think that would actually be an interesting conversation to have with the kids. Because I mean, you could, you could do that in a way that's very non judgmental, like, just out of like, sheer curiosity, because I think that is definitely a question and a concern that is coming from, you know, parents and people who don't understand, right? So to be able to have kids say, these are the factors that I've taken into consideration, or this is what's come at me, and this is how I've internalized it, right? Like, this is how I see that, which is totally different than a 40 year old is going to see it right. And, and if that did have a factor, although, you know, I still like my, to me, it's such a I feel so firmly, this is not a decision that they're making, right? It is a decision that they're making to be brave to come out. But this is something that they've always known or they've known, right, like, This is who they are so so does that incoming information. Does that give them the courage then to do it now, as opposed to waiting? Until they're in their 20s? Or their 30s? Right, and maybe that's why there are more girls in their teens than boys, right? That are transitioning. I am just spitballing here, I'm sure I'm gonna get in trouble for something I just said. But that was literally just stream of consciousness.

And I didn't I didn't want to read a book by a woman who is a psychiatrist, but she's anti trans. She's very, you know, she's really, and she writes about what's going on with girls. And it was a hard book to read, you know, but you know, she has all these any like facts and figures. But it is interesting how they're, they used to say transgender kids knew when they were three, you know, that they were in, you know, the wrong body and whatever. Most of my campers, you know, a handful of them did, but most of them when they were 1314 15. So, who knows? I think everything's probably changing. Right?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's it's definitely on a continuum. And I think there is, you know, when when the question is why, why are there more transgender people now? Well, because it's safer in a lot of areas, a lot of places geographically for them. It's not safer and others, it's terrifyingly, going backwards. But that is why it's not that there's all of a sudden, a bigger number of, you know, kids who are LGBTQ young people, young, you know, young adults, that it's safer for them that that there are safe places for them to be who they are, and to like explore it. And I think there's definitely an exploration in there too. Right? So

then the idea that we're there busting up a whole archetype that probably needs to be busted up in 1000 ways, right? We made a lot of, right, we made a lot of this stuff up, right, you know, we did girls or this, you know, whatever, you know,

oh, a social construct. Yes, completely, completely. So I actually want to talk a little bit like more specifically about camp Odyssey because I want people to know about camp Odyssey and what you do, and how it came into being and all that good stuff.

Yeah. And we call it Odyssey teen camp, even though a lot of people say camp Odyssey so we call it Odyssey teen camp. Okay. All right. There we go. Yeah. Let's see what I can tell you. Well, you know, I started it when I was like, I was 44 years old. And I was working at a place called the Omega Institute, which is a big adult retreat center in New York, kind of years ago was places that like, whoever went on Oprah would go to the Omega Institute and talk and people would pay a lot of money to go and listen to them. And I was like a volunteer there. And I was a little bit involved. Remember, like years ago, there was the whole men's movement or a little young for it. But you know, man, we were going into the woods and we were drumming. It was a whole big thing. You know? I don't know. It was very big. And we all had animal names and things like that. I don't even I don't know. But anyway, I was working and I was leading like men's groups and I had A lot of friends who had teenage boys and, and I hadn't been married, I had no children, and but they told me I'm gonna cry. But they told me that, could I hang out with their son? And I'd say why? They say, Well, he really likes hanging out with you. I guess I wasn't a dad, I was probably very immature in some ways. And I don't know, I guess I was less judgmental than maybe a lot of authors were. So anyway, I would hang out with a few of my friends sons, and maybe I helped them a little bit with whatever they were dealing with. And then I got the idea that maybe I could start a camp for teenagers. And I was working at omega, and I brought it to them. And they had a pretty big reach, you know, they had a catalogue that went to 500,000 people. And they said, Yeah, you can do it, we'll support you, if you find a place, we'll let you call it omega team camp, and we'll be partners. I remember the deal was I got no salary, but I would split whatever the profits were in this nonprofit organization that they they're wonderful people, but they like to make a profit, you know. So I was kind of off and running. And it was interesting. I had never committed to anything in my life. In some ways. I had never committed to a job or a woman or anything. But somehow the day I started this camp, I was pretty committed, you know, it was and I didn't know what I was doing. I was incredibly naive. I didn't know from 2200 regulations, you know, all of that. Sure.

Oh, my goodness, yeah, that's a big undertaking.

But I found a camp, it was a Presbyterian center, and they gave us the worst, you know, part of the facility. And we, and we started, I think the first year we we had maybe 30 or 40 kids, and we lost $20,000. And I remember, I had to write out a check for 10,000 to the Omega Institute, after working after working literally 20 hours a day, every day, and making nothing that I somehow didn't care, I guess I had money, and I didn't care. And I knew I was in this forever. So I don't know, we were often running. And we were always a little wacky. And I think we were always a good camp for, you know, for, you know, kids who were gay. But, you know, that wasn't anything near a focus. You know, we were just a regular wacky summer camp for kids who probably struggled to fit in somehow that's who came, you know, we had this tagline a great place to be exactly who you are. And parents said, okay, you know, that's good for my kid, you know. So it was interesting. And, and then it grew. And, you know, was never easy. heathered always hard, you know, but it grew from 40. Kids, maybe to to hundreds, and, and I'll make a started making money. And I started making a little money. And everybody was very happy. And and then it kind of it's interesting that enrollment started going down, and maybe it went from 200 to 140 or 150. And all of a sudden, Omega wasn't making much money. And I don't know, I thought maybe I don't I didn't know what was gonna happen. But I knew I was I was in you know, but I'll tell you like a little bit of a crazy story that my wife says I shouldn't tell. Every year after camp, I would meet with these Omega management people because they weren't in that camp. So they didn't know anything, you know, they and we would do what he called a debrief, I guess, you know. And I knew they weren't happy that it was going a little bit down the pin registration. But I was in a Barnes and Noble in New York City in a basement reading magazines and drinking, drinking coffee. And a voice said to me keep it going. And I said hello, it was very clear. There was some voice. I really thought it was outside my head, you know? Yeah. It sounded like it. And I said, What? And they said, Keep kept going. And I went, Okay, no problem. And right, I got it. And like maybe a week later, I met with omega and they sat there and they said, you know, we appreciate the work you've done, but we're going to drop camp. And I just said, Okay, no problem, but I'm gonna keep it going. Because, you know, I didn't tell them I heard a voice but I told them. I told them, it was what I had to do. And it created the whole thing where they went, Oh, no, you're not I still don't understand, you know, frankly, 12 years later, exactly. Why I have lawyers, you know, two lawyers calling me trying to stop me it was but I don't really know why. I don't know if it was a liability thing or more. Just, you know, you can't do this anyway. So it was interesting. I'll tell you another funny thing. We were at we were Omega teen camp. So we were always called OTC. You know, OTC, I'll make a tincture that was in all our songs, all everything. And I told them, if you kind of back off and leave me alone and maybe support me a little, maybe, maybe give me anything to, you know, make it easier. I said, I'll come up with a different name, we won't be OTC anymore, right? I'll be Adams teen camp, whatever we want to do. And they said no. And I said, Okay, well welcome to Odyssey teen camp and we're still OTC today, like 22 years later, so it's my gosh, that's so funny. Yeah. And then I should say, you know, we were struggling, I was losing money every year, and my wife was looking at me, I got married somewhere along the way and, and had a daughter and my wife was every year, she looked at me and said, you know, how long are you going to do this? Because this is our money, you know, kind of, I don't know, a combination of the pandemic, and the gender revolution, both of those things came along, and we are just booming. And now we have 350 kids, and I try not to take too many to be honest, because, you know, any more than 150 kids for us is, you know, that's a little bit of a number that becomes too much. You know, I think we get overwhelmed, you know, so we take 150 kids at a time. Most of them come for two weeks, some come for one week. And I'd say about 80% of them, or 90% of them would say that they identify as LGBTQ plus, and most of them are on some kind of gender journey, and our staff is very queer, you know, and everybody's queer. And I don't know, it just seems to work. You know, I love it. It's really fun. And they have the same creative one to fool insecure, anxious, sensitive teenagers that they were 22 years ago. They're just talking about their identity a lot, you know, and whatever they're doing,

you know, yeah, right. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

It's interesting. Yeah,

that is so fun. So tell me, I'll tell everyone where it's located. I know.

We're in the Berkshires. And we have a big, beautiful facility. We did move to a town that would like to see us go away, we found the one like real, you know, whatever town, you know, they were a Trump town before there was Trump, you know, anyway. So that's an interesting thing. I'm sure it would be a good reality TV show. But anyway, we're in the Berkshires. And I think we're good at helping kids have fun and relaxed. And there is something Heather, like when I hunt when they come that first day. And their parents dropped them off. And they see 150 kids who look like them, you know, in some way. I think some of them can't even believe it, you know, they go, Oh, how did this happen? You know,

magical.

It's pretty magical.

I mean, it really is there is so much to be said for that the power of that. Right? And, you know, can we talk about that? I mean, what you're doing and being able to see yourself like, see somebody here, you're like, oh my gosh, this like person is like me, right? Or reading a book where there's a character who looks like you like the importance of being able to do that is so huge. And so yeah, I love that you're doing this, thank you so much.

Thank you. And they understand each other, obviously, in ways that you know, and of course, when they have 25, and 30 year old, you know, queer counselors who are, you know, transgender and have jobs and have lived through things and have, you know, husbands or wives and relationships? I do think it opens some things to them where they go, Wow, I could do that. And, you know, some of them are living really interesting, creative things. And they go, Wow, I could do that. You know? Absolutely. Because I would imagine for a lot of our teenagers, and I'm sure this is for gay and straight, they must look out at the world that we have to offer them. And some of them must have a hard time finding anything to feel really kind of excited about, don't you think? Yeah,

I definitely think yes. I think it's a very overwhelming prospect. And I think because this generation of kids too, especially as they are so aware of, like I always think about, like when I was that that age, like in even in college, like, you know, you're focused on getting a degree, you're really kind of aware of what's going on and like your own geographic area, right? You don't have a whole lot of, you know, national awareness, let alone global awareness, right. And these kids do, and that's so much that's coming at them all the time. That and they're you know, they're brought brains aren't developed in their, you know, chemical hot messes. And it mean, there's just so much that you think, Well, of course, this is hard. I mean, I think it's, it is such a gift to be able to have a place, like, out of CTN camp or, you know, these different opportunities where kids can kind of like, take a breath and be like, okay, like somebody, there's a path there there is I can do that, you know, or that is really interesting. And that's positive. Because, yeah, there's, there's not a lot of positive.

No, I would imagine some of them have never been really nevermind celebrated. They haven't even been seeing like, for who they are ever, you know, and so on. When they look around, and there's all these kids who love them just like that, you know, it must be I think it's wonderful. And somehow teenagers need teenagers, don't they? We could, we could talk about, we could tell our teenage forever that. Don't worry about it. You know, you won't care about that. But I guess when you're 13 or 14 those friendships, there's no getting around how important they are probably right.

Yeah, I think they're, I think not only important, but it is such a pivotal time. And so much, you know, is going on that whatever is going on with relationships is it does leave a mark. Right?

I'm afraid it kind of defines them to a great extent at that time, right? Yes,

yeah. Yeah. Again, I would love to have somebody who has the, you know, psychological and the background to be able to explain that because again, that's very anecdotal. But holy cow, just, it is it really does. It really does. And, and how can we better support, you know, as parents, even though they need those positive relationships with their peers? How, as parents, can we support and not make it more difficult for them? Because I think even sometimes, when you're well, meaning you make it more difficult?

Yeah, I know, I know, You've done a lot of podcasts on that. And I've listened to them. You know, I, you know, a couple of things come up. I mean, I'm, you know, I only have a daughter who's only who's nine. So I haven't even lived this, but I been with 4000 teenagers, I guess in the last 20 years. So a couple. Yeah, I mean, obviously, acceptance is something you talk about all the time. I think maybe talking less and giving less advice. I've heard that said a little bit with you guys, I see how that makes could make a lot of sense. And holding them, I have a friend who only works with teenage girls. And she said to me, the parents of teenagers definitely need to stay in the game a little bit, because I guess she sees a lot of, you know, parents whose their kid is 14 or 15. And they kind of take 10 steps back, you know, and she thinks it's a mistake, you know, right. So you got to, I see you say you got to hold them just the same way, without giving them a ton of advice, and hold all their anxiety and try and understand everything you can with knowing you're never going to understand exactly what they're feeling. But she stayed she used the term stay in the game, you know. You know, I do think one of her one of her patients had had had committed suicide. And I remember meeting with her not long after that. And I guess she she said parents have got to stay in the game. I don't know if she looked in that particular situation. Girl was alone. But anyway, yeah.

I'm so sorry. I think that's a great, that is a great phrase. And it does shift a lot. And And as parents, I'm still, I still have terrible days where I take everything personally. And I'm like, Why are you being so teenager free, and you're hurting my feelings. So just Just know, that happens to everybody. But it's also one of those where I have like this out of body experience. And I'm like, don't let it get you. This isn't about you is none of this stuff is about us. It's all like they're right. We're just here to like cold them, like kind of I feel like we're kind of like the like, and then when they're ready to then that's when we are here, right? And hopefully Yeah, and validate and then let them go back out. And then they come and yell or cry or whatever, right? So it's definitely a like, you gotta get your, like your thick skin on your Teflon, whatever you want to call,

especially, especially moms because like teenage girls, you're the only ones that they're courageous enough to dump on because they're scared of everybody else out there. So If you're you know, they really, I'm afraid, you know, sometimes being a punching bag is the best thing you can be for them in some ways, you know,

totally, and which almost sometimes might be a little more painful is I found that teenage girls like to tell things in real time. So you are going to relive every story, like you were right there. And you just have to smile and nod and it is the greatest thing. And you're gonna miss this Sunday, I promise. So just, you know, listen, my husband's eyes, like, you know, they never tell me all this stuff. And I'm like, do you want to hear five stories in real time? He would check out about three minutes.

And you have to listen together without saying, Are you crazy to them? Sometimes? I guess too, huh? Yeah. Oh,

for sure. And your facial expression? Yeah, love smiles. On the inside. You could be like, Are you freaking kidding me. But on the outside?

Right. And I also think it's important for parents to Yeah, to not blame themselves for anything in some ways. Because, I mean, you know, we love the hell out of our kids. And some of them struggle like crazy, you know, and some of them didn't do anything wrong, other than being a parent and a human. And I would imagine, it's very easy to blame yourself, you know, kind of thing. So I hope parents don't do that too much. Because every parent I've ever met, you know, just Oh, nothing wanted nothing for their kid, but then for them to be happy. Right? Even if they didn't have a clue how to help them. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that is very, very good advice. And then it's very difficult, because I think that is kind of the like, instant reaction, right? If your child is struggling, you instantly think Well, what did I do? Like? How did I cause this? Did I cause this, right? And there's all that stuff that's just natural as a parent, right? So I think the more we can say that, the more it is helpful,

right, a friend, I kind of stole it because a friend of mine has a son who's really struggling. And he went to see, you went to see a man who's a guidance counselor, who was a, who was a good friend of us. And He said to my friend, he said, I've been doing this for 32 years, he said, and I stopped blaming parents a long time ago. So you know, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought that is very, very wise. And it is, it is very, it is very true. And as parents, I think we show our fears and our apprehensions and in all different ways, right. So sometimes it can come out as like, obvious concern or fear. But sometimes it can come out as arrogance. Sometimes it can come out as, you know, overconfidence, like, it can be like the total opposite right thing. So there's so many different way I found it's so fascinating.

I'm thinking underneath it, it's all fear, isn't it? But it comes out in different ways.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, whatever the coping mechanism of of choice. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, my goodness. Well, Adam, I have loved having this conversation. I am going to put in the show notes. How to reach you how to reach you know, to the camp, can we put an application for the camp in or

the website would be great. Okay. I think my guy sent you our website kind of thing. Yeah, the website would be great. And I think they can do everything from there. Yeah.

Okay. Wonderful. Well, I hope everyone comes and checks out of CTN camp. It sounds just wonderful. And thank you so much for your work and your dedication to keeping this going and providing such an incredible, safe space for our kids.

Thanks. Yeah, it's really good work. Whenever I think of doing something else. I always go well, that doesn't sound as good as this. So you know,

right. Yeah, I'm right there with Yeah, absolutely.

All right. Thanks. All right. We'll talk soon. Okay.