Expertise is often undervalued in today's online culture, especially when the coaching industry deems anyone an expert who is "two steps ahead" of their client, but Dr. Michelle Mazur is determined to change that. With a Ph.D. in communication, and a brilliant framework called "The Three Word Rebellion", author, speaker, podcaster, and messaging consultant, Michelle Mazur has a lot to say about expertise, the anti-expert bias that is flooding the internet with cookie-cutter programs, short-sighted advice and leaving people feeling duped. 

If you are a legitimate expert, chances are you think you suck at marketing and don't know how to stand out from the crowd without feeling like a sleazeball about how to help clients who value what you have to offer to find you and hire you. So, Michelle and I are here to break it down, like this: 

• The importance of owning your expertise in your messaging and marketing.
• The rewards and benefits of working with experts to create tailor-made solutions.
• Face the marketing challenges experienced by experts and skilled professionals.
• Streamline your marketing efforts by doing more with less.
• Accelerate your success by forging alliances with fellow experts

Meet Dr. Michelle Mazur

Say hello to Michelle Mazur, an accomplished expert in marketing and messaging for entrepreneurs. With a keen understanding of how to navigate the complex online world, Michelle has dedicated her career to empowering business owners to market their expertise effectively. She's also the founder of the Expert Up Club, a supportive community that encourages experts to embrace and showcase their skills and because I was already a fan, I jumped at the chance to become one of the club's founding members.

Connect with Michelle Mazur beyond this episode:

Visit Michelle's website to find her book, podcast, and more: https://drmichellemazur.com/

Take Michelle's marketing assessment: https://bit.ly/3IygH1z

Follow Michelle on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmichellemazur/

If you remember one thing from this episode make it this: 

Gaining confidence and a sense of control when it comes to owning and marketing one's expertise can be challenging for many entrepreneurs, especially when they face insecurities and potential backlash from the anti-expert community. This ownership should not be confused with arrogance, but rather an opportunity to showcase unique skills and knowledge. During the interview, Michelle pointed out that claiming one's expertise is an identity issue. Many individuals struggle with accepting and truly embracing their expertise, even when they have amassed years of experience and impressive credentials. Taking pride in being an expert allows entrepreneurs to focus on their clients while building a solid foundation for marketing.

Mic Drop Moment:  

“The kind of people who sit around thinking about how to market themselves are not the type of people who develop these exquisite expertises.” Michael Lewis, author of Moneyball  & Host of the Against the Rules Podcast.  

Are you an expert who is ready to take your business from one of many to stand out and sought-after?  Then it’s time to work with me on my 12-week 1:1 program, The Boss Up Breakthrough. Taking the first step is easy, just schedule a free 30-minute consultation right here: https://bit.ly/calendly-free-consultation

Podcast reviews really do motivate me to keep creating this show & bringing you awesome guests and no-BS solo episodes, so if you are a regular listener and haven’t left one yet,  what are you waiting for? 

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Want to go back to the highlights? 

00:00:01 - The Tricky Business of Online Marketing

00:03:41 - The Gap between Traditional and Online Marketing

00:07:02 - The Appeal of Quick and Easy Solutions

00:09:45 - The Importance of Marketing to Seasoned Audiences

00:15:47 - Owning Your Expertise

00:17:36 - Impostor Syndrome and Expertise

00:22:13 - Benefits of Working with an Expert

00:27:05 - Overcoming Marketing Resistance

00:32:16 - Do Less But Better Marketing Strategy

00:36:25 - The Importance of Collaboration

00:40:01 - The Value of Paid Advice

00:43:17 - The Importance of Valuing Experts

H: So if you have been in the online space, and if you have been marketing your expert business longer than a minute, chances are I am not the only one that's noticed that this is actually tricky business and you are probably struggling with it. Legitimate experts, highly accomplished people, highly educated people, thought leaders actually have a harder time attracting their just right clients and even putting themselves out in marketing at all. So today's guest, Dr. Michelle Mazur, is an expert on experts, especially when it comes to their message and their marketing, and she has a whole lot to say on the topic. So welcome Michelle, and let's just talk about how the struggle is real for experts like us putting ourselves out in the world.

G: Yeah, thank you Diann, for having me because this is such an important conversation and as you were introducing me, I was remembering this quote that I love from Michael Lewis who wrote the book, Moneyball has the podcast Against the Rules, and he said that the kind of people who sit around thinking about how to market themselves are not the type of people who develop these exquisite expertises, and I'm like, yes, 100%. Like we really believe it's like, alright, we did all of this work, we have all of this knowledge, we can really make a difference to people based on what we know. We can help them, we can move them forward. We're really excited about that and we have no idea how to translate that into marketing to actually get in front of those people. It feels really hard. It feels like the work that we do should stand on its own.

H: And you know what, if you had a brick and mortar business. I had a psychotherapy doing good work and having a good reputation and achieving excellent results, and being referred to by other experts in the community, it used to be enough and maybe it still is for that kind of business. But enter the wild, wild west of the internet, enter the coaching industry, the online marketing industry, and all of a sudden, the conversation has changed in a very drastic and dramatic way.

G: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a sister podcast called Duped, the Dark Side of Online Business, and we just released a bonus episode about the book, Two Weeks Notice by Amy Porterfield, and she talks about how you just need a 10% edge. Meaning you just need to be 10% smarter, 10% ahead of your clients, and frankly, the other 90% you don't know is going to bite you and your clients in the ass. But I feel like that summarizes it, that anti expert bias that we have in the industry so well, because we're always taught, oh, you just have to be one step ahead of your client. You just have to be that 10% edge. You have to be 20 minutes smarter and it's like, oh, no, no, like that is a recipe for disaster.

It creates this system where people just take what they know probably from another course or program they did give people a cookie cutter formula and when the formula doesn't work, they're like, oh, I don't know why it doesn't work for your audience, your business, your people, because this is the only thing I know how to do versus when you're working with an expert, if something doesn't work, it's like, huh, that's curious. I wonder if the audience isn't quite the right one for what you're trying to do or with this message and so there's this troubleshooting. You're thinking about other things to problem solve. It's not like, well, if it doesn't work, it's your fault. It's a mindset issue, let's blame you.

H: Uh actually yes, when you blame your client for their failure to get results, it is always, well, you're not all in, you're not committed. You need to work on your mindset but I'm recalling all the way back in graduate school at UCLA, my first semester in master's program in social work. And I remember all, I was about 10 years older than most of the other students because I had already married and had my family by the time I went back to grad school. And I remember most of the other students asking the professor, what do you do when X happens and everybody was looking for that cookie cutter by the book, like, what do you do when someone discloses, they're suicidal? What do you do when someone says they think they were born in the wrong body and they're considering gender reassignment.

What do you do and all of these things and every single time Dr. Maki answered and it just pissed everybody off so bad he, every single time he answered, he said, well, it depends. And they were infuriated because they wanted an answer that they could rely on. So they didn't have to think, so they didn't have to feel incompetent because the situation was more complex than they bargained for. And you know what, I use that expression all the time now, because I realize it does depend, but you have to be an actual expert to know that it depends that people aren't cookies so cookie cutter solutions don't work.

G: Yeah, and I love, like I say that a lot with my clients too, if they're like, oh, how big of an audience should I grow, I'm like, well, it depends, like it depends on your business model. It depends on, you know, the niche you're choosing. It depends on a lot of different factors. So I can't just be like, oh yeah, if you have like a thousand people, you'll be good to go. I don't know, we actually need to have a more nuanced conversation about it before I can be like, all right, like I think this range might be a good fit for you. But I feel like they're just like, no, just tell me like, how many people do I need on my list and I'm like, eh, defense.

H: And you know what I mean, we're not here to slam the Amy Porterfield. We're not here to slam, I love your term web celebs but we're not here to slam these people, even though they probably deserve it to some degree. Because the reason why they have become multi multimillionaires, the reason why these books fly off the shelves, as do their courses and their coaching programs and their masterminds and their certifications and all the other things they sell is because people want quick and easy when they are told it's becoming an entrepreneur is easy, fast, fun, ridiculously lucrative, mostly passive and anyone can do it, people just eat, that's what they want to hear. They eat it up, but it's not true and yet that's what sells. That's what people want to hear. That's what they're signing up for so there's a real big gap between the message that sells because it's what they want to hear and what the message they actually need to hear, which is what experts will give them.

G: Well, and I think there's also something about realizing that your audience or the people you wanna reach might be more seasoned. They've already bought into be like, oh, it's quick, it's easy. You just follow this formula and you will have like a seven figure launch and it's going to be amazing. Yeah, they've heard that before and they're like hat didn't really work out for me. Yes. And I feel like there's once you're more established, once you're more savvy, there is an audience you can reach who is opting out of that kind of thinking because they know that it doesn't work. And I feel like we're seeing more and more people become more seasoned. Yes, they've gotten duped a few times. Yes. They realize these things don't work, and so that's a real opportunity for experts to get their thought leadership, their expertise in front of these people.

H: I would totally agree, and I know that you and I both market to and serve predominantly seasoned people, the ones that I really feel sad about are the ones that have invested so much money in their duping that they now legitimately would be in serious financial trouble if they hired a legitimate expert. They've literally shot their wad on the people who can't actually help them and there are a lot of them, I think when I first encountered Duped, one of the most valuable things about it was that I realized, oh, I'm not the only one. Because if these experts are going to the trouble to create this podcast, there must be many other people like me who have gone through this situation. And I think you're right, I think the tide is starting to turn, and I think there are more and more people who are like, you know what, maybe this mass marketed advice really isn't what I need, but you kind of have to fall on your face and fall on your sword a few times to figure that out, I guess.

G: Yeah, I know for a long time I was like, if I could just get to these people before they spent tens of thousands of dollars on these things, then I could really help them but after a while I realized like I couldn't save them. Like this was kind of the process they needed to go through and figure out what didn't work and it's my hope that people hear Duped and they are like, Oh, okay that's what's going on, I'm opting out of that and I'm going to find people who are actually legit and can solve my problem. Which means, yeah, that experts are actually going to need to show up and start marketing themselves so there is an alternative.

H: I so want to believe that people don't have to learn things the hard way. But 20 years of being a therapist would suggest otherwise and even for myself, Michelle, realizing when I would hear myself right as I'm hovering over the buy button, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is and son of a gun, if I didn't, it didn't hit the button. Anyway, so I'm curious if you have noticed if there are any generational effects, because something I'm thinking about is you and I both grew up during the age of experts, if you will. The advanced education that was required to become an expert was valued. We saw the value and the sacrifice, the financial contribution, the opportunity cost, the not having much of a life for five to seven years to go to grad school. We recognized the value of that, we believed in it. We bought services from other experts and valued that.

And I'm kind of noticing in some of the younger generations, millennials and down, that the tipping point seems to be that they don't trust experts as much and the first thing they'll bring up is, yeah, well, how many overweight out of shape doctors that smoke have you been to? Who are they to tell me how to take care of my health and I'm like, yeah, but that's not the conversation we're having. So it's kind of like an across the board you can't trust experts and the kind of expert I'm looking for is someone who understands me, who gets me because they're just like me. Do you think there's a generational effect there?

G: Yeah. I'm wondering about that cause as you were speaking, I was thinking about, you know, being a Gen X-er growing up in the eighties, and there was this real mistrust of authority right? But well, and also, Gen X-ers were latchkey kids. We were the type of kids that would leave our house at nine o'clock in the morning and come back at dinner, and our parents had no idea where we were, what we were doing. It was just like, here's the key to the house and God's speed, I'll be home by six. And so we had this real mistrust of authority, and I'm wondering if that is just kind of a youthful thing. It's like, you see the authority, you rebel against it, and then as you get older, you start appreciating the knowledge that other people have. Because yeah, right now I see it's that influencer culture like, oh, so-and-so's just like me, so I'm gonna parent my child the way that this influencer in parenting says.

H: That totally makes sense.

G: And it's like, and then eventually you figure out like, oh wait, sometimes these people who are experts, who are authorities actually know things that I do not. That these influencers do not, and not listening to them at all is actually harming my life, my health, my family, whatever it is. But I do think it is that, yeah, let's like rebel against the authority figures and then you're like, Oh wait, these people, they have something going on.

H: And they know things and I will say also, I think because of the way women are conditioned. Something I see with my clients a lot is even if they understand they're an authority, they understand that they are a thought leader. They understand that they are an expert. They've like got the street cred, they've got the official credentials, they've done the time, so to speak. The embracing of that identity and sort of stepping into that and communicating it clearly, consistently in a compelling way, and their marketing is like, you know, like it's a disconnect there, right?

G: Oh yeah well, and it was interesting when I was launching my community, the Expert Up Club, I have a question on the intake form that's what makes you an expert. And people would list all of their like education and experience and their credentials and I'm like, wow, you're really an expert. And then they would get on a call with me and be like, oh, I'm really worried, am I expert enough? And I'm like, lemme read this back to you for just a second to show you that yes, you are expert enough. But yeah, it's that you have to own and claim your expertise for yourself and be comfortable with that identity, before you can really market successfully. Like I feel like that's the first step, and even when I think about the expert up club, like one of our core values is that expertise is valuable and vital and you should be owning that. And yeah, I feel like that is something really hard, but like once you do own it, it makes everything so much easier.

H: You know, I had a thought, Michelle, while you were describing that and I absolutely agree a hundred percent that it is an identity issue. Same thing with imposter syndrome, the only people that have imposter syndrome are legitimate experts. If you are a shamelessly self-promoting know nothing, you're not gonna have imposter syndrome. You're gonna think you're all that, even though you got nothing to back it up so it's almost feels like the more you know, the harder it is to step into that and it makes me wonder if part of it, in terms of the identity is, it's kind of like, who do they say I am? External validation like, okay your teacher gives you the A or the B, right? Your teacher decides if you pass this class, your teacher decides, your professors decide if the paper was adequate, you get to go to the next thing.

So all of that is you're doing the work, but you're getting that external validation, and at the very end you get the masters, the PhD, the MD, the JD, or all of the above, but it's still. Somebody else puts that seal of approval. You've got that framed diploma, that degree that, and when you are marketing yourself as an independent expert, an independent professional coach, a consultant, you have to grant yourself that credential. You have to say that all that is enough and yeah, I'm putting all of my emphasis behind as though I gave it to myself. That's a real switcheroo, I think, especially for women.

G: Yeah, it is and I also feel like there is anti expert bias that exists out there. So if you are in, if you're marketing yourself and all of a sudden, you know, you're trying to own this identity of being an expert and then you run across a post that says something, I saw this the other day, that said, don't be an expert, be a human.

H: No way oh my goodness.

G: Oh yeah. Oh yeah and she was like, I had a lovely conversation with her because I was like, I have to say something. I have to say something. She was, she's writing a communication book for experts, and I'm like, Hmm. I was like, that denies the humanity of an expert and I can't think of anything more human than struggling with how to talk about what you love, what you're passionate about, how it helps people. Like that is the most human struggle in the entire world and it's those little things like don't be an expert, be a human, like no, you are a human, like you have humanity. Just because you have, you know, got a PhD or have all these years of experience doesn't dehumanize you. But I feel like there's those little sneaky messages that are all across our society right now that really speaks to that anti expert bias.

H: And you know what, you're a word nerd. I'm a word nerd like I love Scrabble. I just love word play. I love all that stuff. But what I would be thinking of is be an expert, not an asshole, you know, or be an expert, but not an arrogant expert cuz for me, the humanity of like owning your body of work, owning your value and thinking that you are enough, that is every human struggle. It's fundamentally, I am enough and I'm going to share myself with you under that premise. So, yeah, the word choice. I'm really glad that you invited a conversation about that.

G: Yeah, cuz it was one of those things where I couldn't not say anything. Because one of the things I tell my clients all the time is, remember like your people, they don't wanna be an expert. They want to benefit from your expertise and communicating from that, oh, how is this going to benefit other people is what experts have to keep in mind because like the things we sometimes like to talk about and get all nerdy about, other people don't necessarily care because they don't wanna be the expert they just want the benefits of working with one.

H: So let's be very specific. What are the benefits of working with an expert? I mean, come on, you're gonna open the door. I'm gonna walk through it all right.

G: Yeah. I feel like there's multiple benefits. I mean, number, I think the biggest one is the way that experts think it's like we have very specific knowledge, but then we're able to apply that to various situations. Really, for me, the mark of an expert is how your brain works. Are you able to take what you know and adapt it to the person in front of you, which means the person gets a more tailored and customized approach, they're not getting like the cookie cutter advice. They're getting something that is thoughtful, but still like based in research and theory that exists out there that they might not even know about and the expert might not even be telling them about. But I feel like you're gonna get a better solution that is more tailored to you. And I feel like that is, the biggest benefit of working with an expert is their ability to think, to be curious, and also to know the limitations of their expertise cause one of the things I often see in business is that these people can do it all right? Like they don't have a scope of practice.

They're like, oh, you need business model advice. I do that oh, you need messaging help? I can do that for you. You need copywriting, I can do that for you. Marketing strategy, great, I can do that and it's like, no, like what's your scope of practice? Like stay in that lane cuz I have no problem telling clients if they're asking me about a business model, I'll be like, okay, I am not an expert in business models, I've just been in business for a long time which I guess gives me some expertise. But this is my opinion based on what I think and what I've experienced and not having a background in how to develop your business model.

H: And I think being an expert and knowing your lane and knowing your scope. And being willing to stay in it and even being willing to say, I'm not the person for you. And this is something that full disclosure here, I am a founding member of the Expert Up Club and one of the questions that you invited us to answer is on this very topic and I think that people being willing to say, you're not for me, I'm not for you. Being willing to turn business away, even if you really feel that you need it right now, because you are not the right person for the right reason at the right time. It's not your scope, it's not your wheelhouse. It's not your genius. You know someone else who would meet their need better, and you have the integrity of an expert to say I have worked too hard to build a reputation around what I do to damage it by faffing around in something that really, I got no business faffing around and this is not my thing, let me send you elsewhere.

G: Yeah. Yes, yes and also I think there's this benefit of being able to accurately diagnose a person's problem and figure out if you are the one to solve it or not. And I know, like I shared this experience in the club where I was talking with someone about working with me on their messaging and their marketing, and I realized there was no there there, like they had this great core message. But when I started poking around like, okay, so what does this mean? What does it look like? How do you know once you've achieved this? They were like, oh, I'm confused, I don't know what you mean by these questions. And I'm like, oh, you need concept development, you do not need marketing messaging. And while I can help people with concept development, it is a totally different conversation that we need to be having. And like, you know, yeah. You go vet the other messaging people you wanna talk to, but I am not gonna throw my hat in the ring because I don't think you need this.

H: I'm also recognizing that one of the other benefits of working with an expert is not only that they can accurately diagnose what the problem is and whether they are the person to meet it, but they're more able to recognize that maybe how you rolled into the agreement and what you represented yourself as having already done or being able to do or willing to do. It doesn't always add up because people don't know what they don't know. They don't know what questions to ask, they don't know how to vet the person. Oftentimes, even people will hire an expert based on their reputation, they don't even know why they're there. And then it's up to us as the expert to say, you know I think it would be great to work with you. But I think we're a good six months, year away from that being the right thing to focus on in your business.

You're not going to be, you won't even know that that is something to take into consideration if you have learned how to be a cookie cutter coach because you have consumed nothing but cookie cutter courses and programs. It's like the blind spots are well, okay, immense. But here's the thing, there are plenty of experts out there who have made the leap into self-employment, and as you and I both know, one of their biggest struggles is quote unquote, putting myself out there. We've talked a lot about why that's so hard and you hear all day long as do I, oh, marketing sucks.

Do I really have to do, I really have to do it and I know you have a lot of really great ideas about how to make marketing suck less because folks, and I want everybody to hear this, including the folks all the way in the back, if you are self-employed, you have to market yourself. Period. Or someone's gotta market you, someone has to market you. They're not gonna just find you that that's impossible. And if you wanna be found and you wanna be hired and you wanna be paid, you wanna stay in business, you gotta wrap your mind around the whole marketing thing so Michelle, how do we know that suck a whole lot less so we can do it.

G: Yeah, so I mean, I think acknowledging the challenge of like a solo business owner, you're juggling client delivery and you're juggling marketing and sales and all of that jazz. So it's like you have a lot of balls in the air and marketing tends to be the thing that falls off because it sucks. It takes a lot of energy to create the content for it. So when I think about making marketing suck less, the first thing I always tell people is like, you should know where you need to focus first. Like, I created a marketing assessment because I wanted to help people like see where they needed to focus. Like, do you need to focus on audience growth? Do you need to focus on how to nurture your people?

Do you need to focus on making offers or most of the time you need to focus on the message first, because that is what powers your marketing. Because I think the mistake experts make is they look at a lot of creators and these creators are prolific, right. They're creating, you know, they've got podcasts in a YouTube channel and they're on LinkedIn and they're on Twitter you know, they blog once a week and they're like, oh my gosh, I have to do that and it's like, no, you don't have time to crank out content like that. Your content needs to be more strategic and it needs every piece of content you create should be able to be repurposed if it works well and it should be moving people closer to working with you. That is the goal of content, as if you're marketing as a solo business owner who is an expert, and the way you figure out like, okay, like how do I move people closer to work with me?

That is the messaging piece of it, it's like thinking about like, okay, well what are those conversations I need to have to like reach people who don't know me yet? Because it's definitely not about your offer and how you do the thing you do. It's going to be more about them and their experience and their problems versus like helping people diagnose what problem they have versus like, okay, now you're ready for a different type of solution. What do you need to say there? So messaging needs to be the foundation of everything you do before you go to market. We skip this step so many times we create a great offer and we're like, all right, now I just need more people so I have to market. It's like, no, you need to figure out what to say in order to get those people, and then you can focus on, okay, do I need to grow my audience or do I really need to create marketing assets that allow me to nurture people and get them ready for this work? Or do I really need to nail down like what my forward facing framework is, and I get need to get some case studies in because I have all these people and I just need to get them excited about working with me.

H: Is that assessment available on your website can we put a link to that in the show notes, because that sounds really valuable, Michelle.

G: Yes, it is @drmichellemaser.com/marketing.

H: I'll make sure we link to that in the show notes because you're absolutely right. In fact, as I'm listening, do you think, do you need to do this? Do you need to do that? Do you need to do the other thing? And people, of course, if they've been following mass marketed advice instead of expert advice, they're thinking, I need to do all the things, which they don't. They don't know what order to do them in because they all sound important. They attempt to do them all and they don't get the desired result and sometimes come to the conclusion, I don't know how to market. Now you need to market strategically and it all comes down to the messaging, which is your expertise.

G: Yeah, and it's like, the messaging and then figuring out what the right marketing channels are like in the club, I always talk about do less but better marketing strategy because most people are doing way too much. They're like, well, you know, Instagram auto post to Facebook, so I might as well. And I'm like, no, that's a waste of your time like that is not gonna get you any results that you are looking for outside of having a Facebook page with a bunch of Instagram looking posts like doesn't make any sense to do it.

H: Okay, I'm just saying right now, do not go look at my Facebook business page after this, because before I started working with you and other legitimate experts, of course, I, you know, lined up at the trough with all the mass marketed advice and ate and drank liberally from it. And, it can be hard to unlearn, but you're absolutely right like, we need to do things differently because we should not be going after influencer status, the blue check mark, vanity metric, none of that is going to find you the kind of clients who actually value an expert, but I know something that will, and it's something that you know a lot about, which is collaboration, let's talk about that.

G: Yeah so one of the epiphanies I've had from doing Duped is that all of the web celebs who are teaching you these marketing activities and to be everywhere and to be omnipresent, that's not actually how they grew their audience.

H: Shocking.

G: I know they grew their audience through collaborating with each other, and some of the people who are the biggest names out there have actually, that's how they got their start. They never started with zero audience and nobody knowing their name because they collaborated with somebody who had a platform who was already willing to promote their work. So as experts, first off, we probably don't need like a huge influencer size audience, all of that is very business model dependent. Like if you're working one-on-one right now, you don't need that many people. So you don't have to worry about like massive audience growth like these people who have like course or membership models and so it's like, alright, what you should be doing is looking for other experts to collaborate with and that doesn't have to look like an affiliate relationship because like Maggie Patterson and I have been collaborating on Duped for what we just finished our fourth season.

And that's been a great way for both of us to individually grow our platforms and reach more people together, and that's been I mean, an amazing collaboration. I love working with Maggie, and it doesn't even have to be a long-term thing, but it's thinking about like, all right, like could I do a lead magnet swap with someone? Could we do like a co-training together so think looking for those opportunities to collaborate with like-minded experts who have similar audiences is probably one of the best ways to grow your awareness and your audience and get more people interested in the work we do. But if you look at what everybody tells you, it's this very much bootstrap mentality. Like, you know, be everywhere and run Facebook ads and paid Google ads, and na na na na na and you're just like, mm, there's an easier way and that's not how these people actually did this.

H: And also I think a lot of the folks that we see who have launched their businesses because they got a boost from someone else who already has that model oftentimes feels very transactional at least me observing from the outside. Like I don't get the feeling that these people actually like each other or maybe they hang out, maybe their kids, you know, have play dates, I don't know. But oftentimes it's like, what are your numbers? What percentage commission are you gonna pay me? What's the size of your this and that and it's like, I think most of the experts I know, because most of us come from a local referral based way of marketing before we took the step into marketing our business online. So it makes more sense to identify people that have the same values as you, who are in a similar place in their business who do something different, but they do it for the same people that you serve and developing a relationship with them.

One of the things that impressed me about listening to Duped, especially the Patreon version is that you and Maggie have known each other for 10 years. That's a really long time and I'm thinking, wow, that really comes through in the level. I mean, I feel like I'm eavesdropping on a couple of really cool ladies at the next table at a restaurant instead of like listening to a polished, packaged interview that is meant to sell and convert. So you and Maggie invested a lot of time in the relationship before you monetized it and I think that's another thing that in the current climate, people want to know what's in this for me and how soon am I gonna get something out of it? They're not really looking to really get to know someone where you actually have a valuable, mutually beneficial relationship that pays dividends to both of you. That almost seems like that's kind of a quaint and outdated concept.

G: I know cuz like the way I met Maggie, I don't remember like how I discovered her, but I really like what she was talking about. And I just decided I was going to be her friend like I made the conscious decision. I'm like, I'm gonna get to know this person cuz I think she's really interesting and I really like what she's about. And that was you know, like we've worked together on and off and you know, like I've helped her with messaging stuff. She's helped me with like business model stuff, so we've had that collaboration. And then when Duped came around, the first three seasons of Duped, we didn't offer anything. There was no way to pay us and Maggie at first was like, we are not having a Patreon. I'm like, fine, I'm cool with that, whatever. I didn't see myself as having a Patreon ever. So this last season we're like, no, we really need to get serious about this and how can we like, cover our costs of production so that we can do this more. And it's very weird cause I feel like the Patreon, yes it's now covering the cost of production. It's gonna cover like some other resources we've wanted to develop for a long time. But I also feel like it's given us like a level of legitimacy like having it.

H: Well, I mean, people are literally opening their wallet to you and it's $7 a month. Folks, we're not talking about, nothing's gonna bust the bank here. But I do think, and I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on this like, let's face it, there is no shortage of information out there. There are, and I know you probably know the exact statistics, but the number of blogs, the number of podcasts, the number of YouTube channels, like there is so much free advice and free information out there and you know, add everything on social media, TikTok, and so forth. There are plenty of people who will give you free information but the ones that will actually want to pay you look for opportunities to pay you and begin kind of transforming their relationship with you to one where they pay for your assistance.

I think that's something a lot of experts still need help sort of navigating that because getting paid for your expertise is a very important step for the customer to take, even if it's your Patreon or your book, or your low level offer, oh, maybe some of them will work their way up to your higher level and more transformational work. Maybe some of them won't but I personally think that people have to have some skin in the game, and I don't know very many people at all, whether they are following experts or total charlatans who are getting transformational sustainable results based on nothing but free advice there, I said it.

G: Yeah, no, I agree at some point you actually have to invest in the tailored advice. I mean it's just because there's no way, like running a business is complex. There's a lot of moving parts, and at different seasons of your business, you need different things and people to come in and help you. Like I was resistant for years for having any kind of community. Like I had this idea for the club probably three years ago, and then I was like, oh no, I don't wanna run a community. I'm not really community minded, da da da da. And then finally I started having a conversation with an expert in community and then started to be and was like, oh, if I hire her I can create this foundation that is strong, that the community can thrive from. And that was my thinking cuz like I feel like most of the communities I'd been in, like they never were that great or dynamic and I'm like, oh, they probably didn't have this foundational piece that only an expert in community knows about.

H: And also as an expert, you recognize that you can't, shouldn't, and aren't expecting that you are an expert in all the things. So because you value experts hiring them and being one, you found a legitimate expert to help you create the thing that was outside of your genius. Yeah. Yes, it seems perfectly obvious, but it it's astonishing. How many other attempts that don't work out most of us have to go through before we get there?

G: Yeah, and I do think there's this pernicious belief that people have, especially when it comes to like messaging it's like, I should be able to do this myself. I am smart, I am capable, I should be able to talk about my work in a way that's persuasive and compelling. And the truth of it is, it's like you don't see yourself clearly at all like you don't know what's going to be valuable for someone else. You don't know how to simplify it in a way that makes it relevant and resonates to the person you most want to reach. Like it's impossible to do that for yourself, but we think, well, if I'm so smart, I should be able to do this.

H: A hundred percent, especially if you're a word nerd and you love wordplay as much as I do. I'm like, oh, I should figure this out. But the truth is I am always amazed when people, when I ask, okay, what did it for you? When did you decide that I was the person for you to hire? So many times it's something, A I don't remember saying and B, it is not what I would think would seal the deal. I'm sure after listening to this, there are people that are like, how do I get some more Michelle Mazur in my life? So where do you want them to find you because we are gonna have links to Duped. We're gonna have links to the Expert Up Club. We're gonna have links to your free assessment. Where else can they find more Michelle?

G: Yes, so if you wanna connect with me directly, LinkedIn is always the best place to do that.

I am all in on LinkedIn because I think that's where the experts are so if you're there, please join me. I also have my own solo podcast called the Rebel Uprising Podcast, where I talk about messaging and marketing for experts like some of the same conversations we're having here, but in more depth so that you can really make savvy decisions about how you wanna show up and market your business and how you wanna talk about your business.

H: Yay, I've been a fan of podcast for a long, long time, you should absolutely listen. So, Michelle, thank you, I can literally talk to you all day, but we know that people's attention spans are not limitless so we will bring this to a wrap for now. Thank you so much.

G: All right.