This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.

In this episode of Grey Minds Think Alike, the host speaks with Davina Hehn, a trained therapist turned mental health coach and anger/conflict specialist, about anger, conflict, emotional regulation, and raising emotionally resilient kids while doing personal healing. Davina shares how her work shifted from court-ordered anger management to helping parents and partners after realizing her own role in conflict and experiencing intense parental rage. She explains why anger is often misunderstood as aggression, how emotional literacy should be taught like reading, and the difference between suppressing anger and regulating it through body awareness, boundaries, and stepping away. They discuss parenting triggers, over-correction into permissive parenting, breaking generational patterns through repair after blowups, and tools for high-conflict co-parenting focused on locus of control. Davina also shares her “A Steady Space” resources and a free anger archetype quiz.

About Davina Hehn

Davina Hehn is a trained therapist turned mental health coach, anger and conflict specialist, and host of the SHIFT Talking Podcast. Through her work, she helps people learn how to regulate their nervous systems, advocate for themselves without causing collateral damage in their relationships, and break generational cycles of unhealthy communication.

Davina focuses on equipping parents and individuals with practical tools for navigating anger, conflict, and emotional triggers so they can build stronger relationships and raise emotionally resilient children.

She’s the mind behind The SHIFT™ Method and founder of A Steady Space.

https://www.asteadyspace.com

About Ali Kessler: Ali Kessler is a writer, marketing professional, passionate parent advocate, and founder of Greyson’s Choice, a 501(c)(3) created to raise awareness about the risk of domestic abuse on children. Greyson’s Choice was founded by Ali Kessler in memory of her sweet, vibrant, and fearless 4.5-year-old son, Greyson, who was murdered by his biological father in a murder-suicide during an unsupervised, court-approved visit in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in 2021. This came just hours after her petition for a domestic violence injunction was denied by a Broward County judge, citing that the “petitioner has failed to allege any overt acts by the respondent which would constitute domestic violence under Florida Statute.”

Ali’s advocacy efforts culminated in successfully passing Greyson’s Law during the 2023 legislative session. This bill now requires the court to consider threats against ex-partners or spouses when making child visitation and custody determinations in the court, expanding to include the following factors: evidence of domestic violence, whether a parent in the past or currently has reasonable cause to believe that they or a minor child is, or has been in imminent danger of becoming the victim of domestic/sexual violence by the other parent, even if no other legal action has been brought or is currently pending in court.

Contact Ali:

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Davina Hehn Podcast

Joining me today is Davina Hehn, a trained therapist turned mental health coach and an anger and conflict specialist. Davina describes herself as a professional friend, helping people learn how to advocate for themselves, regulate their nervous systems, and navigate difficult conversations without causing collateral damage in the relationships that matter most.

Davina's work focuses on breaking generational cycles, the patterns many of us unknowingly repeat because we were never actually taught how to handle big emotions or conflict in healthy ways. Today, we're talking about anger, communication, parenting triggers, and how we can raise emotionally resilient children while also doing our own healing work along the way.

Davina Hehn: I wish these topics were more present when I was an earlier parent than they are now. Yeah.

Ali Kessler: 1,000%. I guess, as a parent or anyone, you don't actually think about these things until you're in the midst of, you know, a child's tantrum or whatnot.

So giving parents or people in general just tools is really important. So I guess if you wanna just start with a brief, description of how you began doing what you do, why you got into this specific topic.

Davina Hehn: Yeah. So my background is in- psychology forensics in particular. And post-grad school, I knew I didn't wanna do therapy, but I knew I still wanted to be an agent of change in people's lives and still be in, in this position.

And it was on day one of my training that I learned that I am a very big problem, that I contribute really poorly. And because he's an external expresser, as men tend to be, and I am an internal expresser, so much more of a, of an emotional punisher, much more of a, an unintended shamer, I learned so much.

Passive-aggressive behavior. Yeah. I'm listening. That's me. Well, it's one of those things that I think we as women, we kind of convert our anger into more of, like, a protective shutdown, and sometimes even into a way of shaming them for not being able to keep their cool contained in the same way that we can.

And it was... Yeah, I was very quick into that training that I just had this whole, this, like, the corners of the room coming in on me and realizing how big of a problem I was and how much I contributed to our dynamic being really poor. Interesting. And that was kind of the start of me realizing this and taking a different approach.

I was the one who could not keep my shit together. I was the one who was behaving in atrocious ways and did not know how to fix that, how to remedy it, how to even understand it, even being this anger management professional that I was at the time. And so much of this work pivoted away from the court-ordered, only men on the tail end of an ultimatum kind of work that I was doing, and into more parenting, partnering, taking more of a professional friend approach, away from a clinical, criminalized kind of field that anger management is, and trying to normalize this so that we can all lead with more curiosity about where this is coming from, more compassion and grace for ourselves for experiencing it at all, and ultimately be able to actually transform our anger from this, like, deep, dark, ugly, aggressive thing into something that [00:04:00] demands advocacy, that empowers us, that then becomes our compass.

Ali Kessler: Now, you often say most of us were never actually taught how to handle emotions or conflict. Why is anger such a misunderstood emotion? Is it, like, all these feelings that are, that just- Blurred itself out?

Davina Hehn: Yeah. I mean, one, yes. Two, anger can be incredibly destructive, and the reason why I find it to be so misunderstood is that we attribute aggression as the only behavior that should be attached to that emotion.

And anger is such a mobilizing emotion because it's our biggest advocate. It is our most protective emotion. And so if we weren't taught what else to do with it, then we will ultimately repeat that same kind of cycle. And emotional literacy is something that I firmly believe should be treated just as importantly as intellectual literacy.

Ali Kessler: I know for me personally, anger also drives a lot of my motivation. My son was murdered. I have a lot of anger. I started this podcast from anger because I need to see change happen, and that is what actually drives me sometimes. So I wanna just, preface that anger can be healthy and good because it actually drives change-

Davina Hehn: Well, yeah-

in some way ... and because you've found a way to, you've found a direction to place it within. So many of us feel this anger, and we get kind of so trapped and absorbed within it. We ruminate within it, and we feel directionless. We go more destruction-focused, and given there- I'm sure there were plenty of times that it did for you.

But because so much of, so many of us when we experience it, there's a neurochemistry that's happening that we kind of lose the ability to think rationally, to consider the next 15 minutes of my life instead of just the next 15 seconds. And I applaud you in your ability to convert that anger, harness it, and position it in a way that not only demands change but helps prevent atrocities like that from happening again, right?

Ali Kessler: Well, I know a lot of our listeners are parents navigating difficult, family court issues or, parenting issues or, stuff like that. I guess many parents worry about showing that anger in front of the children. As someone who went through it dealing with the co-parent, and hiding that is very difficult.

So what's the difference between suppressing the anger and regulating it?

And so there, there is this part about the whole suppressing anger is more about just shoving this down, acting like it doesn't exist, or feeling the anger, expressing it really quickly, probably in like a really funky way, and then not doing anything to repair or navigate that moving forward.

So the difference there is what I used to do was the suppression of I would feel a ton of anger, and I would want something to be done about it. I would wanna say something. I would wanna do something about it, but then I would immediately feel so much guilt that like these are just little kids, and who am I?

So the suppression is more so this toxic positivity of let it go, it's not a big deal, shove it down, don't be irrational, that kind of thing. And the regulating is actually acknowledging what's happening in your body, giving it life, putting the spotlight on it, and allowing for us to know that, one, it's a normal emotion, and two, if we are not experiencing anger, something is wrong.

We need it. Definitely it's a protector. And so the actual regulation of it looks like just acknowledging it within ourselves, separating ourselves for a few minutes if we need to, even while the kids are still tantruming, even while this adult is still going wild in the background. It's taking that time to just give myself a minute to acknowledge I am angry, this is what I'm feeling, my heart's racing, my, my breathing is shallow.

Right.

Ali Kessler: And in the case, like, if it's external forces that are causing your anger and not actually what the child is doing, sometimes I would just let it roll off my shoulder for the time being, and then deal with it once the child went to bed or whatnot, just so they didn't see things that they really didn't need to see.

Davina Hehn: Yeah. No, totally. And there is a finesse to it that we eventually learn to navigate within, but in the early parts it's really challenging. So how did you... Like, when you say that you let it roll off what did that actually look like in real time for you?

Ali Kessler: Just, let's say I was getting text messages from Greyson's father, and they were making me angry.

Davina Hehn: Well, I applaud your ability to do that. For a lot of us- Well, it took a long

Ali Kessler: time, because I realize when you're dealing with someone who's narcissistic and have coercive, controlling behaviors, you're just fueling the fire when you respond as much as you really want to.

Sometimes you just have to step away and say, I'm not fueling this fire. I'm not giving more to this conversation.

Davina Hehn: No, and I... It, that's, it's such a powerful thing to be able to do, and I, and I applaud you for being able to do that for a lot of us because it feels like losing. Yep. Because not saying something in the moment feels like they win, like they got something over me.

There is a really big sense of an ego, and not ego in the way that a lot of people portray it, but more so, like, my sense of self, my identity, my self-respect, my self-worth. It's, that's what all of these things, when we experience anger, it's almost like all of those are up for grabs.

He's out of his mind, and I have to remember that." Mm-hmm. "And I am not going to engage." So yeah.

Davina Hehn: I usually describe it as, as taking really shiny bait, that, like, the people around us who know how to get under our skin the, the most, right? They will put out this bait, be really shiny, really enticing, smell really good, and for the most part, all of us will kind of just, like, like we'll just chomp it right up.

And the work is being able to recognize when the bait is there. Whether it's their intention or not, the impact is still there, and then we get to determine whether we are the one who ends up with a hook in our lip, getting gutted on a boat, or whether we are gonna be the one to see it,

Ali Kessler: acknowledge it, and still keep swimming, right?

Now, parenting can trigger our own unresolved emotions. Why does raising kids often bring up so many of our own reactions and patterns?

What kind of response did we get from our parent? And a lot of this is kind of just running in the background, and there is constantly this comparison, and the reason why that creates so much discomfort in us is, for the most part, a lot of us weren't raised in a way that we were allowed to experience emotions.

We weren't allowed really to say no or to dissent. For many of us, we are raising kids in a better circumstance than we got growing up, and there's this constant battle between deep gratitude that my children are getting a different kind of experience than I did perhaps, and also this deep level of resentment, this deep level of envy that I have that they are getting what I didn't.

We can't let him do it like this," and almost act as if we can predict the future based on the current behaviors. So, many of us, if we don't realize it, we are reliving all of these experiences. My son is in third grade. One of my worst experiences was when I was in third grade, and if I don't acknowledge that kind of overlap, the fact that our childhoods may rhyme in some way, then I'm more likely to repeat patterns unintentionally because I'm not even paying enough attention to notice that it's sounding an alarm in my mind.

Ali Kessler: And I know for me, like, my parents got divorced when I was really little, and I always wanted to give my child a complete opposite life of what my parents were and did. Yeah. So I feel like, although I'm sure there were a lot of times where I sounded like my mom or did things like my mom did, I also made a very conscious decision to not be like her.

Davina Hehn: I think we over-corrected. I think for a lot of us, we grew up with so much rigidity that we didn't see the benefit of in the long term, and so we over-corrected into what has, of course, been described as gentle parenting, but it's actually permissive parenting, and we've kind of jumped the shark.

We've gone too far over in assuming that our kids have the wherewithal, the know-with-all, the, the knowledge and the lessons that we've learned from that, but they aren't. They're f- they're fresh slates. They're clean slates who will overstep and take advantage where they can. They will manipulate based on, not out of malice, but just out of, self-preserving- I think they're smarter

bias. Yeah. Like, they're very intelligent, very cunning, and that overstep definitely comes through. And so now, there were certain things that I said I would never do as a parent that now I've called my mom many times over to apologize to her. Right. Saying like, "I get it now." I get it. "I see it now.

Yeah. Right. And then we will then use our anger as aggression and demand respect, but we all know that respect isn't demanded. It can't be commanded. It has to be earned. And so there really is this big difference between permissive parenting and what was intended to be gentle parenting, which was just not using aggression, still holding a boundary strong.

I didn't say no. I let them get away with everything. There was this part of me that was just so desperate with good intention to give them a really positive, lax childhood, and now I do not know how to contain this child who's about to be an adult soon."

Ali Kessler: You talk about, breaking the generational cycles, like we're talking about our parents and whatnot.

What are some of the most common emotional patterns that you see parents repeating?

Davina Hehn: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. One of the main ones was- And how do we break

Ali Kessler: them?

Davina Hehn: Totally. One of the main ones that I see is losing our shit- And then overcorrecting to being like Mary Poppins the next morning, and not actually addressing what happened in between.

We assume that if I lose my shit and then I show my child I'm sorry through action, through overcorrecting the next morning, the next day, that they'll get that I'm sorry and we'll be able to move on. But with the uncertainty, with the fear, with the discomfort that comes from that blowup, kids need to know where to place that.

But ultimately, that child ends up ruminating, not really knowing what they did wrong or what that really was. So one of the things that I found to be most helpful is to go to my kids later and say, "Hey, when I got upset last night, when I said this, what was your understanding of that? What did you experience during that time?"

And I'd say probably eight, nine times out of 10, their understanding of what they did, quote unquote, "wrong" is off. It's not actually what sparked me. It's not actually what was upsetting. And so we get an opportunity to correct that, so that I don't think that they get it clearly because they're also acting in their best way the next day, and we are just continuously missing the mark.

They're not learning the skills of how to get from point A to point Z. And so what we've done with our kids is we'll come back around and ask them like, "Hey, you heard me and Papa. You heard us fighting behind the closed door. Do you have any questions for us? Can we explain to- like, let us explain to you, and actually what we're gonna do is apologize to each other in front of you so you can learn what this looks like."

So sometimes it's really smooth, and we each take accountability, and it's fine. Every so often, in our attempt to do that, one of us gets flared up, and then the kids actually get to watch us work through it and watch us be able to communicate where we're coming from, where the other person was, what we understood, what we didn't.

So now we're at this point, but at first it was much more messy. It was much more confusing. But everything started with that intention of, to your point, Ali, not just saying what I don't wanna do as a parent, which is where I think a lot of us get caught up-

Ali Kessler: ... And

Davina Hehn: instead pointing toward what I do want to do.

Right. My husband had always told me that he didn't want to be an angry alcoholic like his father was, but he didn't point his direction. He, he didn't point himself in, what do I actually want to be instead? It was just, "Don't do that." And then he became an angry alcoholic father. Of course. Until, of course, we intervened and he did the work and advocated for himself in these ways.

But that's definitely, like, two of the biggest things that I see us make these mistakes in parenting.

Ali Kessler: Now if a couple is divorced or going through a divorce and, the child has two homes, how do you get the other parent on board with sort of the same sort of emotional regulation?

Or how do you teach it to the kids or the other parent?

They will undermine it and dismiss it immediately, even if it's good advice. And sometimes through a mediator or someone like me who works with both sides independently, I do see a lot of really positive outcomes. A lot of the time, though, it just doesn't work out. A lot of us just aren't on the same page.

We feel like me regulating means giving the other person a g- a better time, and we just don't wanna give that to them, so then we rob ourselves and our children of it, too. So in those cases, what we do is work with the parent who is committed to doing the work and teach them how to do that with their kids, how to talk to their kids about when you're in this other household, when you start to feel X, Y, Z, listen to your body.

But through, through that work and taking this radical self-responsibility over what I can do and giving grace and compassion to myself for what I have no control over- That's usually how we get there. Well,

Ali Kessler: I know a lot of families practice the parallel parenting for when they each have their time sharing, where it's like, " Whatever goes on in my house is my house.

And I ran in the house crying. Yeah. And I felt so bad at that point, you know? I cleaned up the glass, and then I went into his room, and I apologized, and I told him why I got mad, why I got angry, why what I did wrong, why I yelled. And of course we hugged it out, and we went on with our day.

Yeah. But to this day, I still, it still bothers me that I did that because he didn't deserve that. So obviously, I was taking some other sort of emotions and, and putting it into something that really didn't warrant it,

Davina Hehn: well, yeah. I mean, there's, there's gonna be plenty of those. In your case, you got robbed of the ability to, to see that long term and to see that how likely minuscule that was- Sure.

Here's what I should have done instead," so that it's not just this all or nothing. Like, what a lot of parents do is we get really upset. I was just talking to a dad recently where one of his kids broke one of his, like, figurines that was... It was, like, a What's the word for it? Heirloom? Like a... Yeah, Worth money

a collectible. Collector, yeah. Yeah. And he was furious, of course, just so upset, and he yelled at his son, and then w- later on went in there and just kind of gaslit himself to his son constantly. Like, " It's just a figurine. I should not have been upset. You're way more important than that is," and almost diminished his initial upset that had so much validation, that had so much realistic reason to be upset about.

Emotions don't follow those rules. Humans don't follow those rules. And so when we do go and apologize, we can say, "Hey, here's what it was. Not only was I upset about that glass breaking, about that light breaking, it's also glass, and I was scared for you." Which is what I told him. Right. Yeah. You

Ali Kessler: know, I said- And that's why it's like-

"It was glass. I didn't want you to get hurt," and da da da, and I- Yeah ... you know, whatever.

Davina Hehn: Yeah. And so what I did- So- ... with it makes sense. What I- Yeah ... why I got upset makes sense, and is valid, and true, and real, and I do not apologize for getting angry. I do apologize for what I did with my anger, and here's what I wish I would've done instead.

Here's what I'm gonna work on, and keep that on your radar so you can see it too

Ali Kessler: Now words that you, when you're like, "Well, just communicate better." Like, how do you actually communicate better, and what are some tangible tools that parents can use in the moment when they're feeling reactive?

Davina Hehn: Yeah, I think a lot of the- Is it like stop

Ali Kessler: and take a deep breath and count to four like we tell our toddlers?

the blood supply from our logical brain. Okay. So we, even if, we know when people tell us to calm down, like all- Right ... it does is flare us back up. Fuel. Yep. The whole point here is that in those times what I think a lot of parents get are these scripts that are, like, best case scenario of, "Honey, I'm really upset.

I'm gonna take a minute, and I'm gonna go calm down, and then I'll be back, and we'll talk." It's just so impractical, especially for us at the beginning.

Ali Kessler: Okay. So

Davina Hehn: I usually recommend that we just do s- It can be big, it can be loud, but no matter what, we do need to kind of separate ourselves from that situation.

There's, like, our eyes are constantly taking in all of this information, and an active difference in environment can make a huge, huge difference for us. So we don't need anything that sounds super cute or manicured, we just need something that sounds like, "I need a minute. I'm angry, I'm upset. I'll... I need a minute."

And what I've started doing in real time, not only when I'm flared up, but in between as well, when they ask me to play or whatever it might be, is I quite literally do my best to, like, switch that perspective of from their lens looking at me, what can I do? What am I presenting with? Not to root out shame or to make us feel guilty, but instead to give us a realistic account of what our kids are looking at, what our kids are seeing.

I will be with you in a minute," or anything that just acknowledges that you love them, that you're still here, and take a literal few seconds to just look out the window, get a new different kind of visual stimuli coming through. Well, how do you get them to

Ali Kessler: stop that kicking in the car or doing without reacting?

Davina Hehn: I mean, it's really hard, right? It's not easy at all. A lot of the time it can either be something where you address it right then or you just let them gas out Because in th- that moment, their m- their brain is flooded. We are more capable of being able to be the one to regulate and keep our shit together than they will ever be at that point, and so sometimes we just let it keep going.

Ali Kessler: I'd be like, "What do you need right now that will make you stop kicking the chair?"

I don't tolerate this. If you're gonna keep going, I will leave the room, and it's okay if you're upset, but I won't stay for it." And it, modeling that I don't I don't want my kids growing up with the expectation that other people have to conform and bend and change in order for them to stay regulated.

I want them to feel confident in their ability to advocate for themselves and remove themselves when they're able from behaviors that they're not comfortable being exposed to. So sometimes in the car my kids will hear me say, "Stop kicking." They will hear me going, of course, like the full-blown control because these are my things, and, "Stop treating them poorly, and this is disrespectful," and all of the, these narratives that we can have.

But what they'll hear most oft from me is like, "I want you in this car with me. I will not tolerate you, you treating my car poorly." And then, of course, it's usually an empty threat that like you will get out. But just the other day, I had my six and my eight-year-old walk the rest of the way home because that's what they were doing in the back of the car, and I, and I pulled over and I said, "I'm not gonna tolerate this in my car.

Ali Kessler: Is key. Yeah. That's the hard part, follow through. Mm-hmm. 'Cause you might think or want to do these certain things, but actually using those tools is another story.

Davina Hehn: Totally. So- And that's why, like, what, our threats that we make, these consequences that we tell them will come through, that's why it's so important that they be measured. Because what, what usually we hear is "Eat your dinner or I won't feed you anymore." It's like, well-

Ali Kessler: Right. ... Okay, I

Davina Hehn: can't follow through with that.

Or go to bed

Ali Kessler: hungry. I'm gonna be like, well- Exactly ... I, I can't send him to bed hungry because then he'll tell his father, and we're going through a divorce. I mean, it just, there's so many things. Totally.

Davina Hehn: And that's why, like, everything just has to be measured, but we get desperate. When we haven't followed through with so many small things, when the big thing hits or we perceive it as being a big thing, we are gonna go over.

We will over-correct into something that is so impractical that not only will I not follow through, I can't follow through on, and then my threats don't carry any weight.

Davina Hehn: Yeah, I mean, it's so much more about understanding that our emotions are energy in motion. They are things that happen to us physiologically. It's no longer the days of mental health only being your brain, and it has nothing- Right ... to do with your body.

Ali Kessler: Right. So

Davina Hehn: the emotional literacy comes similar to, to learning how to read, where first you just identify the letters, then you learn their sounds.

Right. Here, we're, we're identifying what's happening in our body and what it feels like. So what, before my kids name what they're feeling, we first start with what the- what they're experiencing in their body. Your face is getting red. Your breathing's getting more shallow. Your heart is racing. You're shaking.

Right. You're wanting to stop. Your voice. Yeah. Right? Like that energy needs to go somewhere, and so the acknowledgement for all of us to notice what happens first because before we even notice that, before we consciously see that our brain has detected a threat, our body goes in- into hyperdrive. That part of our brain can recognize it within milliseconds.

When this happens, it's so important for us to understand what's happening within us in the way that our body was built to experience-

Ali Kessler: Yeah ... and

Davina Hehn: not just this character defect, not just something wrong with you. So we start there, and then once we notice what's happening within our body, then we can start labeling it, and naming it, and being able to identify with words what this means.

So when we say just communicate- Right ... that's that gap where we can, we can actually describe what it is that I'm feeling, and then after that, then we can determine where that came from. But so often, like just this morning, I had this really big pang of anxiety hit my chest, and I immediately went into, like, where is this coming from?

Ali Kessler: with me a lot.

I feel like- Yeah ... I have anxiety, and I'm just like, "Why do I have anxiety?" And I'm like, maybe I'm just not breathing right. I don't know. And I go through, like, steps to think about what is happening in this moment.

Davina Hehn: Well, yeah, because we assume, naively, that everything that's good in life is supposed to happen, and anything that's bad in life isn't.

So when we experience a distressing emotion, we don't quite know what to do with it. Our patterning is that this is bad. Don't be anxious. Don't be sad. Don't be angry. What's wrong? Just calm down. And it sets this tone for us from early childhood that anything distressing is not supposed to be felt.

And with that ideology, of course, we're gonna go right into finding a way to get rid of it, or shame it, or suppress it and just shove it down. Very true.

Ali Kessler: So okay, if there's one skill, I'm sure we already mentioned it, but one skill every parent could develop better to handle anger or conflict, what would it be?

Repair. Repair.

I don't, I don't know how to actually repair and move through it instead of just, like, moving on and acting like it didn't happen. So the- where I view it- Acknowledging ... as us as parents, us as parents, our job is to not only just keep our kids contained to our household while they're under it, it's in their adulthood.

How can I set them up for the most success later with the most realistic expectations of what life and love and marriage looks like? Not just happily ever after and nothing happened. Like, when couples come to me and they tell me that they never fight, I'm concerned. It's a big deal. You should be fighting.

Right, right, right, yeah. It's, it's, it's there. And learning- What stemmed it, yeah ... more about themselves. Yeah, I mean, it's- Right ... it's curiosity. Yeah. And if we grew up in a household where we felt ignored or abandoned or unimportant, we sure as shit are not gonna be the people who continue doing that to ourselves in our adulthood.

So if I can acknowledge that within me, why this is valid, wh- where this upset came from, and still take accountability for it, and also navigate with our kids what to look for, right? Usually what, what I used to say is, " I got really upset last night. I'm really sorry. I should not have done that. That glass that broke, it's not important, and I will not do that again."

So I want them to, I want us all to work on acknowledging what it is within me, validating it, taking accountability, and then setting realistic expectations for ourselves and for what our kids can expect of us as we move through. Put it on their radar. Let them know what you're looking for. So what I've shared with my kids- I think that, I think that goes for-

Ali Kessler: Yeah

almost everything that adults can do because almost everything that we do do results from our childhood at some point. Like, I was studying, like, relationship attachment theories. Yeah. And I'm like, "Okay, you have the anxious heart and the avoidant. Well, why is this person so anxious? It's probably something had to do with previous relationships or the way your parents handled things or to you."

Davina Hehn: Totally, and I mean, we, we know that our attachment is pretty much ingrained by the time we're between five and seven years old.

So much of that is a working memory that I don't have access to. I don't really remember much before four, likely even five. So when we're talking about the first five years of our lives that we don't even know that we kind of got wired within- Of course ... and what we do is not what I used to do, which was understand people so deeply that I would give them passes and not hold them accountable to it, or not demand better for myself just because I felt so bad for the upbringing that they had.

That's your shit, and I have my shit, and then we have our collective shit. But I'm not gonna just continue eating shit just because we each have our own."

Ali Kessler: Well, if in that scenario, like, what if you understand where that behavior comes from and you understand A to B, but that doesn't mean it's okay.

So how does that person deal, how do they both deal with it?

Davina Hehn: Well, and it becomes this of there's a difference between an explanation and an excuse, right? I can, we can explain these behaviors, and you're still responsible. You're not to blame for the way that you were wired in your, in your childhood. You are responsible for rewiring that in your adulthood though.

Right. And so that's just where- They have to see it, though,

Ali Kessler: I think. Yeah. I have to, they have to see, recognize that in themselves, which I think might be the hardest part.

Davina Hehn: It totally is. That's why it's, it's usually just getting someone, like, in the metaphorical chair in our work is oftentimes just the hardest part.

Anger feeds off of guilt and shame and regret, and when we're sitting across from a clinician who is working out of a workbook, also how I used to do it and people had fantastic outcomes. There's no... I'm not shitting on any other modality. I've just noticed so much more progression in clients when we can use really dark humor together, when we can acknowledge things together, when they're also hearing from their provider what she experiences as this person who is in, like, the provider chair.

Ali Kessler: That was all very, you know, informative. How can our listeners get in touch with you, read more about you, all that good stuff?

Davina Hehn: Yeah. So the, my handle everywhere across socials and including my, my website is A Steady Space. It's the whole point is like, come in, find your balance, and go back out into the world.

And on my website actually, or any of my socials, I have links to an anger archetype quiz. So when we're first starting to do this work and we're just inundated with conflict with me and my partner, with me and my kids, me and my coworkers, me and the guy who cut me off in traffic, there's oftentimes this overwhelm that comes from like, "I have no idea where to start, and I don't even really want to because that seems so distressing and overwhelming."

So that's a free quiz that you can find anywhere, and then everything else comes from that place. I'll put that

Ali Kessler: in the show notes, and I'm gonna take that quiz.

Davina Hehn: Yes, please do.

Ali Kessler: All right. Well, it was so great having you. Thank you so much for sharing these tools and helping us understand how much power we have to change the patterns we grew up with.

And for parents listening, breaking cycles isn't about being perfect. It's about becoming more aware, learning new skills, and showing our children what healthy emotions and communication can really look like. So thank you so much again for coming on and talking with us, and maybe we'll chat again soon.

Yeah, honored. Thank you. All right, great.