6-time grand slam coach Wim Fissette joins us on the Functional Tennis Podcast to chat about his coaching career.

Wim set a high standard for himself winning 3 out of the first 6 slams he coached at.

Wim worked with some of the best players in the past 15 years such as Kim Clijsters, Sabine Lisicki, Simona Halep, Victoria Azarenka, Johanna Konta, Angelique Kerber and recently finished working with Naomi Osaka. With Iga Swiatek recently finishing with her 3-year coach Tomasz Wiktorowski, is Wim the man to take the job.

He tells us a bit about his coaching journey with each player, some anecdotes and learnings throughout his coaching career.

Hope you enjoy it.

Fabio

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Welcome to the Functional Tennis podcast.

I'm your host, Fabio Molly, and I bring you insights and lessons from players, coaches, parents, and experts who are ingrained in the world of high level tennis. Today's high level tennis guest is multiple slam winning coach, Wim Fissette.

Wim has worked with many great players such as Kim Kleister, Sabine Lisicki, Simona Halep, Angie Kerber, Naomi Osaka, and more. As a coach, he won a crazy three slams in his first six slam tournaments. That's a 50% record. The bar was said hi from the get go.

He tells me all about his experience working with these great players, the challenges he faced, and things he learned along the way. It's a great episode. I really enjoyed it. I hope you will, too.

And before Wim jumps on, a shout out to our podcast partners, Asics, who, in my humble opinion, feel they make the best tennis shoes in the world. Recently, I actually haven't been playing a lot of tennis, which is really sad.

But when I do, the one thing I enjoy doing is putting on my Asics solution speeds ff trees. I find them light, stable, and comfortable. Plus, I wouldn't have the quickest feet in the world.

And I feel these shoes give me the confidence to get the most out of my movement and even get a little bit more. If you've never tried them on, I recommend you give them a go as your next pair of tennis shoes and added bonuses. They look great also.

Okay, here's Wim. Wim, welcome to the functional tennis podcast. How are you?

I'm doing good. I'm at home in Belgium right now, and, yeah, thanks for having me on the. On the podcast.

It's officially episode 239. I think we've had a few more, but you are probably one of the people I would have liked to have on from when we first started this five years ago.

Are you currently taking a break now, or what's your current situation?

Currently waiting on the new project, on the new challenge. So, yeah, I wish I would have been in Asia right now and Beijing right now, but, you know, like, some things you can't control.

And Naomi and I, we had good four years. Like, the last year was really special. Starting from zero.

And I think we just had a fantastic year in the development phase, but definitely didn't have the results we wished or we wanted. I felt she was really, really close to achieving it, but, yeah, players can make decisions where they feel is best for them.

And now I'm at home with the family and ready to get back on the tour, to be honest.

Great. And I don't want people think I watch tennis all the time. I don't have time to be watching tennis all the time. I'd be living more productive.

One of my favorite match of the year was Naomi's match against Iga in the French Open. Yeah, that was a thriller. That was unbelievable, that match. It must have been like. What was it like for you?

I know you've been there a lot of times in those nerve wretching situations, but this special occasion, what was it like for you in the box in that third set?

Well, there was, first of all, a lot of emotions, because since I started with Naomi, it was always like a difficult time of the year. The clay court season and the grass court season, where she never had good results, never felt confident, and felt she had a really good game plan.

To be successful this year was, to be honest, since we started also, the first year, she really invested a lot of time on the clay court, where she really learned from practice sets and where we tried to improve better, like, improve every day. And the IGA match was definitely, like, her best match on the clay I've ever seen her play. It was really impressive.

I was really proud to watch her play like that, watch her move like that. And, yeah, I mean, for me, at the moment, I was just so happy to watch her play that level.

And, of course, you want to beat the best player in the world, and especially the best player on that surface for three years already. But you also know as a coach, that you have to make that last point to win the match, and that's also the most difficult point.

And, yeah, it didn't go our way, but it was definitely like a match to take a lot, a lot of positives from. So that's. That's what we did.

Oh, yeah. It was watching. It was very nerve wracking for us. Oh, it was so good. So that was great. And just going to. Do you have any plans now?

Do you have a player in the pipeline? Are you currently searching? What's your current situation?

I'm here. There are definitely a few players that I'm really interested working with. So, yeah, let's, like, the interest has to come both ways.

So let's see what's going to happen in the next weeks or months. But, yeah, looking for a player with that's a good fit. You know, you spend so much time together, so it needs to be a good fit personally.

Also, the ambitions should be on the same line and, yeah, ideally with, with a great team around. That's because I love to work in teams, so, yeah, that would be ideal.

So you're basically looking for somebody who has the potential to win a slam.

Yeah, I mean, that's the ideal, yeah. And it's a good thing.

You say the potential, the potential doesn't need or doesn't necessarily need to happen within a year, but, like, also on the longer term. So I'm definitely also interested in a younger player with some development to go to be a candidate to win grand slams. But, yeah, great.

And you. So you used to play tennis, you played a bit, you played some tournaments, you had a ranking, and you retired quite young as a coach.

You're still young because you're retired young, though. You've had a very long coaching career with unbelievable players and many great slam victories.

But what were your tennis playing days like and why did you ultimately stop playing?

So I started when I was like six, seven, and I was more or less number three, number four in my country. Number one was Xavier Malise, number two was Olivier Rocro.

So those were like world class players at under 14, under 18, and I was like number three or four, but big distance. And then I finished school at 18 and then I was looking for a solution to train and to play tournaments.

And then I found a solution in Germany, where I went to train in a team and travel the world a little bit for a year and a half. I had a few injuries, but also was pretty realistic that it was going to be a very difficult journey.

And I'm also, let's say, brought up in a very realistic way and maybe too realistic. I feel now that to achieve a dream, you must be also be able to dream that goal. And I guess I was way too realistic at that time.

So then, honestly, I went studying.

I didn't feel that tennis was going to be part of my life and definitely not coaching because we didn't have, let's say, international coaches in Belgium or like, I didn't, I didn't believe or think that could be an option in the future. And I finished my degree.

I started working in a company in sales and, you know, like on the side, I started coaching a little bit to earn a little bit more money because life is expensive and I wanted to live a good life.

And, yeah, step by step, I was really interested in the coaching and I was enjoying it, and it also took me, I mean, I worked in a company for like, four years until I started slowly traveling with Kim Kleises as a hitting partner. So those were my. Yeah, those were my first steps into the, into the coaching world.

And how did you come across Kim? Did she train the same academy as you or where you worked or how did that start?

She's three years younger than me and we practiced more or less every day from the moment I was, like, from. I was from my 15th until my 18th, and then she obviously went her way. Her career.

I went to Germany and, yeah, her career really took off and mine was a little bit different.

And then when I was working in the company, there was a WTA tournament in my city and they were looking for hitting partners, and I was still top 20 in Belgium, so solid player. I was playing some local tournaments and, yeah, that's how we got reunited. And I was a hitting partner for that week.

And from that moment, we started to train, sometimes together. Then she asked me to go to tournaments, and from that moment, I started to think, like, hey, honestly, this could be something for me.

And when was the day where you decided, I'm quitting the corporate life?

I'm like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. This is what I want to do. And then two months later, three months later, she decided that her career was over.

And that was obviously a tough moment for me, so. But thinking back was actually a really good moment. I mean, I was hitting partner at that time. She didn't have a coach.

I was already trying to help her.

And when she told me she was going to stop, I always felt there was a moment that she was coming back because I still felt she was young and she felt, I felt the love for the game from her a lot. She really loved to play tennis, but it was just. I think it was just a lot for so many years.

And then, yeah, for me, there was a chance to become a coach. So I started coaching 50 hours a week in Belgium next to some really experienced coaches who were technically very strong.

I started the coaches courses in Belgium, in the federation.

So you spent that time from when Kim retired first of all, till she came back, you just spent knowledge, knowledge, learn, learn, learn.

Yeah. And work a lot of hours. I was doing 50, 60 hours a week working with some good juniors and, yeah, learning.

Was she surprised? Was she surprised at your knowledge when you start work was like, what's happened here?

Well, I mean, I had to be prepared, you know, like, of course, you know, afterwards people say how you were lucky to get a chance like that. And I know I was very lucky, but also I was prepared for that. So I think I was, like, technically, tactically really ready for that chance.

But obviously I didn't have any experience on the tour, so that was also really new for me. But yeah, I think she was also surprised.

I'm probably going to ask you this about some of the players you worked with, and I'll start off with Kim. In your eyes, what made her special in your eyes, and what's one thing you still to this day take that you learned from her?

She was able to relax when she needed to relax and focus when she needed to focus, and she could be super relaxed five minutes before the match. But then when she was on the court, she was really a killer and wanted to obvious course, be the winner, be a champion, but have that balance.

So that was, that was, that was nice to see.

That's obviously a great skill to have.

I'm sure many of the legends of the game have had that skill where they just know how to switch it on when it's important and can be a bit playful when they can. What year did she have her babe.

Okay.

And obviously, I think it's just showing how hard it is for other players to do what she did, to come back and, you know, to get to where she is win slams and wonder world after having a baby. Like, it's. That's what I'm sure Naomi's. A lot of them are trying to do this, and it just shows. It's. It's not easy. Do you think it's getting.

It's just got harder and harder because the caliber of the players.

And then she took a little bit of time off, and then she came back. When I compare it with Naomi, her last really good result was Australia 21.

So it was not just coming back from pregnancy, but also a lot more than that. And, of course, Naomi, before she left, she was not a top ten player, so she had to catch up a lot. And I feel like she really did.

And she's very, very close to the top of women's tennis. But, you know, you. The depth in women's tennis now is different than it was, like, ten years ago.

Okay. And. Okay, so, from Kim, then, what was your time stint with Kim on that comeback coaching journey?

And many. Did you win three slams with her?

Is there any of them that stick out the most for you? The most special?

I mean, the first one just. I mean, it was my first grand slam, like, my first grand slam as a coach.

Then her third tournament after coming back from pregnancy and beating all the best players in the world, like Serena and Venus and Lina Wozniaki. Just all the best players in the world she beat in that tournament. So it wasn't even an easy draw.

It was probably the most difficult draw you could have in a grand slam at that time.

Well. And was babysitting part of your job as well?

Maybe some hours, but I would love to do that. But no, no, she was traveling also with a full time nanny.

How hard is it, looking back at players who travel with young kids? Stuff like sleep, kids have to be fed. Is it really, really hard?

I mean, when you are a top player. You earn enough money to make it pretty comfortable traveling. Right?

Like, if you can travel in business class and you can travel with a nanny, and the nanny has a separate room, and before the matches, the baby sleeps in the room with the nanny, you know, like, it's. It's. It's doable, you know? Like, it's. Of course it's different than before.

You have a lot more worries as well, but it's also more relaxing, you know, like, it's. It's. I think it's. It's very different. Traveling and playing tennis just for yourself or traveling with your family and, you know, having.

Having your child after the match or after the practice, it's a completely different thing. So it's. Yeah, I mean, it's. I think it's a good life to travel with your family.

You're probably not going to be doing it if you're 200 in the world.

I mean, it's going to be difficult, right. I mean, I know some players, you know, we had in Belgium, Janina Wickmeyer, who came back two years ago, and she had to start from the. It's.

And it's obviously way more difficult. She had a great career, like, ten years ago, and, yeah, she wanted to come back, but that's obviously, yeah, way more difficult the way she did it.

Okay, so after. After your stint with Kim, who was next?

I worked with a young russian player that was. Her name was Irina Kramacheva.

It was the time that, you know, Kim was an unbelievable player, and it was the last year we worked together was obviously a bit more difficult, and I just wanted to. My goal was to work with, like, a young player that I could develop.

We went through the. Was actually a great experience.

Okay. And so that ended.

That ended with me starting to coach Sabine Lisicki.

And that was in 13, obviously, really special moment for me because I coached Kim for three years, and everyone, including myself, will say, hey, Wim, you were lucky. She was just an incredible, good player, and you were lucky to be your coach and win some slams.

It was obviously hard for me to know, okay, did I do a good job or was she just that good? So I had good experience with the Russian, where I developed arena quite well, I think and then got the opportunity to work with Sabine.

And we started the week before French Open. She won a few rounds in the French, and then four or five weeks later, she was in the Wimbledon final.

So that was, for me, a moment that was super important because that's where I slowly started to believe in myself, because Sabine was a very different player than Kim, very different than the young russian player, and, yeah, to find a way to make her successful through a very different approach, that gave me a lot of confidence in my future as a coach.

And it got the critics off your back?

Well, I think so. I mean, yeah, I believe so.

It's not that I read everything, but, like, I remember, like, when I was working with Kim and we won already, slams that, in the belgian press, they were still writing, like, the hitting partner, Fisetli, you know, like, so it was. It was difficult. Difficult to get. Yeah. To get the respect there. So it took a while, but that's okay.

So how long did you work with Sabine?

Not too long. It was after. After the US opened that we split. Yeah, Sabine, I think she knew it, but she wasn't always the easiest one.

And, yeah, I think after Wimbledon, I think there were a little bit wrong expectations. Grass was clearly her best surface and I believed a lot in her on the grass, but outside of that, she had to develop a lot. She had to develop a lot.

Physically, technically, she was always one of the best players, but tactically, physically, there was a long way to go. Yeah, they felt suddenly they.

After playing the finals in Wimbledon, she had to go to the quarters or the semis every slam, and she wasn't ready for that.

When you say she was hard to work with, does that mean she didn't want to learn? She didn't want to listen to you? She had her own way of doing things, is that what you mean?

Yeah, I think she just had a very clear idea how she saw things. I mean, just every error she was making was a technical error where, like, I was a little bit. I had different thoughts about that.

You know, like, first, everything starts with the footwork. If you don't have a good position behind the ball and you're out of balance. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you can have the best technique in the world, but you're not going to make that. And also tactically, you know, like, there are other things that are also very important, but, yeah, I mean, just, you know, that's how it goes.

You cannot always have the same. Same vision or the same thoughts, but, yeah, that wasn't always easier.

Okay, so you say, okay, well, cheers, and listen to me. I'm out. So next in line was Simona Halap.

That was. Yeah, it was really interesting because. So I had the final of. Oh, yeah, we won, like, with Kim. We won us open.

We won the Australian Open, and I was the final Wimbledon. So at one point, I get a call from the agent of Simona Virginia, and she called me to talk about Simona.

I'm like, you are calling me for the right player, because I haven't been. I've been in all grand slam finals, but I have not been in the French Open finals. So she is the player, and she's gonna do it.

And so, yeah, I started with her, working with her. I started with a tournament just after the Australian Open in Paris, and then we went to Doha, where she won it. So that was a great start. Semis in.

In Indian Wells, and then going into the clay court season, finals in Madrid and then finals in Paris. So that was really special. That's where my dream to be in every grand slam final was achieved.

Okay, obviously, you're working with great player after great player after great player.

So what do you bring forward, like, to the next player to say, would you ever say to Kerber, look, Kleister did this, you got to do this, or Halep did this, or. They don't want to hear that another, you know, that that other player did that.

Are they interested in hearing what other players did that may help them, or. No, it's my way only.

No, no, they. They do. They do. That's. That's. That's. They're very interested in other players.

But obviously, you cannot compare someone like Simona with Kim or, like. Or. Or Kerber.

Like, everyone is so different, but still, you talk about things like you did in practice or how you approach things or how you were going into certain matches. I think what was interesting with Simona is just, like, how much everyone believed in her from a very young age.

The family was involved, and there was so much belief, and, yeah, like, where I grew up, and my parents wanted to protect me and say, you know, like, we all know it's gonna be.

It's almost impossible to do it, and, you know, like, there's only, like, not even 1% that's gonna make it, and it's exactly like, you can try, but it's actually impossible. Where her family was always like, of course you're gonna do it if you work for it, like, and of course you're gonna make it.

And I really felt that with her and, like, there was, there was no doubt. Like, she was. Yeah, she was gonna be a grand slam winner.

Is there a fine line? You talk about your family, how they, you know, they were overprotective of you.

Then we talk about Simona, how the family, like, she's gonna make it if you put into work.

But today, if a junior asks you, like, are the parents say, you know, he's gonna be pro, he's gonna be the best in the world, or she's gonna be the best? How do you draw the line between dream and. I'm being delusional?

Well, the dream has to come together with, with a vision and a clear plan, but also, I mean, do it through, like, analysis. Like, you know, like, do.

Do an honest analysis of the, of the son or the daughter, you know, like, and speak to some experts and, and see what they say. And, of course, if you go to a big academy, they're probably going to tell the parents she's gonna be a grand slam champion.

But, you know, like, find someone. Find someone you can trust, because it's hard.

If you're a tennis parent and you don't know much about the sport, it's hard to judge, like, how, how good is my, my child? And it's. It's. It's. It's really hard.

Yeah.

I think honesty, which is really hard to do in the present when you speak to people, can really save a lot of pain in the future and a lot of funds as well, and, you know, and it can slow down some of these career move in other directions. But I feel.

I feel from, you know, speaking to a lot of parents and seeing a lot of juniors, hearing them talk, it's definitely, you know, a fine line between you think somebody's really, really going to make it has the potential. And also being. I don't think this is going to go that far.

I find it really tough and interesting, and obviously, you, you can break people's hearts by telling them the truth, but I think it's important.

Well, you have some, I mean, beautiful stories. Venus and serena, of course, but how many people tried to do the same like, they did and how many succeeded? Like, naomi is one of them. She.

The parents had the same dream, like Richard, but, you know, like, not everyone was as smart as Richard was and didn't have the same vision. And, you know, Richard also used some really good coaches to help them with their development.

And, you know, it wasn't just going to the court every day and play some tennis and suddenly become a grand slam champion. It was a lot more than that.

We'd all be slam champions if it was just about going to the court.

That's true.

And so after. How long did you work with Simona for?

It was a year.

It was a big transition for Simona, where she was this unknown, like, romanian girl at the beginning of the year, and at the end of the year, she was number two in the world, and she had. Outside of me, there was, like, a romanian team, and really good people created their work.

And especially in the beginning, language was also nothing, not that easy in the communication.

And she decided at the end of the year that she wanted to have a full romanian team because that's where she was really comfortable, and, yeah, that's where she felt her best. And so she made that decision, which she did for, like, three, four months, and then it didn't work out. And then Darren became the coach, so.

So, yeah, he did a great job.

After it worked out good for her.

Yeah.

And so after. Who's next? After Halop.

So, Vika. Okay, honestly, at the. At the end of 14, I was doubting my coaching career because, yeah, like, we had some.

I had some success, but also it was clearly difficult with some short term partnership and difficulties that came with it.

And then my wife was pregnant of our first child, and there were no role model coaches who were combining coaching a top player with, like, with a family. And so I actually joined an academy here in Belgium where I said, hey, let's build something together, like something international.

And I said, well, that's really unfortunate, because now I stepped into this academy. We are expecting a child. So, I mean, although Biga is such a great player, I can't do that.

And then she told me, hey, well, that's really not a problem. Tell us how many weeks you can do, and probably we can work something out.

And then I had a phone call with Vika, and that really impressed me, the way she was open and honest and great conversation about her ambitions, her goals, and that she wanted to work with me.

And I remember after the call, she texted me, and she's like, tell your wife the family can always travel with us, and that's no problem at all, and let's do that. And I was like, I can't believe my eyes. I don't believe this is, like, reality. This cannot work out.

And then I said, well, I mean, I'm gonna try it at least.

And it worked out from the first week, and I always enjoyed working with her from day one, and it worked out with the family and it was never an issue. Yeah, things were really great with her. So I started with her in 15, and it was a year where she still was struggling with some injuries.

And then we finished the year quite early and had a very, very big preseason. And I started the year in 16 almost unbeatable. Like, she beat or she won Brisbane. I think the maximum games she lost in a match was like five.

And she kept that form going into the Australian Open and, like, winning matches really easy, easy, easy. And then she lost to Kerber in the quarters. But I just felt like, yeah, maybe she.

She needed to take a little bit more time off before, like, after Brisbane, because mentally she just missed that little bit of freshness.

And then we continued one Indian Wells, one Miami, and then we had, yeah, the situation that she was pregnant a few months later and that's where it ended. That's where it ended.

And it was, of course, difficult because she was on the way to become number one that year and win at least the grand slam like she was. She was the best player at that time, clearly. So that was difficult.

It was just a matter of a few more terms. It was coming. It was coming. It was just all the good work was coming together. So you're back home to the academy, is it?

I'm gonna leave it right now and I'm gonna still be the private coach and I'm gonna focus on that because I. If I wanted to coach Vika the right way, we definitely needed 35 to 40 weeks in the year to do my job well. Otherwise it would be half work.

So that wouldn't work. So, 16. It finished after Wimbledon. So I was like, what to do now? Because there was just one player I wanted to work with and I was.

That was Vika, but she was pregnant, so it wasn't possible. And, yeah, I did a few little trials, and then I think in October or November, Joanna Conta called me and, yeah, that was definitely something I was.

I was excited about. And I remember going to London for that first week of practice, and of course I saw a great player and I saw good potential. I saw a really nice lady.

But on the other hand, I also felt like we were really, really different. But still, I thought, yeah, let's try this, and could be potentially a great partnership. And it was a really good partnership.

I think we had a great year together. I think we learned a lot from each other. But at the end of the year, we both agreed that we were speaking a very different language, so.

But that was okay.

You talked about being totally different. What was totally different? Just the way you coached her, your personalities, what was the major differences?

The way we approached tennis, where, I mean, just a clear example, and she was really good in that because she worked with a lot of mental coaches.

And the mental part was, the mental part was almost, for her, the most important, where she would, let's say, miss a ball and it could be a really terrible miss. She would immediately switch off and be ready for the next point. And my mentality is like, why did I miss this ball?

I don't want it to happen a second time. I know what I have to do with the forehand. I have to focus on this and this and this, and then it's gonna, then it's not gonna happen again.

Where for her that didn't work.

And we had the situation where we spoke about, like, if you start a match and things aren't working well for her, was the mentality, okay, well, then I know this is going to be my tennis for today.

So I have to be mentally strong to win the most important points in the match and really fight very hard and be mentally super tough, and then I can win it.

And of course, I was thinking, okay, when I'm zero three down and I don't feel my forehand, I have these and these and these tools to get my forehand where it needs to be, because I know my forehand is there. I want it to be there. And this is, of course, like, I think we were both right.

Yeah.

But because I learned from how important it is to switch off and be ready for the next point.

On the other hand, and especially we had these situations also in practice where she was accept, like, for me to accepting just errors too much, where I was like, in practice, I don't want to accept an error. Like, we have to avoid every error because the more errors you make in the practice, the more you're going to make in the match.

So we also had these discussions on the practice, but these are all very positive and productive conversations we had in a really good way. But we were obviously really different, but it was a great partnership.

It sounded like your boat learning. Her way of thinking is quite good to be able to switch off, and obviously you're thinking of, you got to analyze what I did wrong.

Let's not happen again. If you could combine them two, it'd be pretty impressive.

Yeah, exactly. I think she did. I think she learned through the year. And of course, I adjusted also my way of coaching.

And I think after coaching her, I was again a better coach because I learned a lot and I think she was a better player. So it was a great partnership, was short, but, I mean, we had one really good year, and that was very positive.

Great. If I'm hiring you for a job in the commercial world, I'm looking at your cv. This guy changes job every year. It's kind of.

It's probably something you're told not to hire somebody who changes job all the time.

And maybe what I'm trying to get to is, does it happen a lot in the female world where the coaches tend to change a lot more so than the male tennis players?

Let me go back first to what you just said. I don't really agree on that. I mean, if you look at it, maybe it sounds like it, but I had some really, really good partnerships, and that was Vika.

And so I worked a year and a half until she was pregnant, and we never finished what we wanted to finish.

So when she asked me again at the end of 18, I just needed to go back to her because I felt, I mean, that was almost the ideal partnership I had with her. So I had three years with Vika and it stopped again because her personal situation wasn't ideal.

And she even didn't know if she was going to continue to play tennis. And really happy things sorted out for her. Same with Naomi. I had like, four years with Naomi, and it was also a great, great partnership.

I enjoyed the last year also. I didn't have, like, bad days with her. Like, it was always, every day was good. There was always respect. There was always great communication.

So we had four years and we came. I had three years. So there was definitely a few shorter ones. But, I mean, that's how it goes. If you start a partnership, you never know.

You spend so much time together. You never know after one week, after one week trial, if that's going to be a good combination. Right. You need to have kind of the same personality.

You need to have the same ambitious ambitions and, yeah, that doesn't always work out. And what you say about women's tennis, I agree on that, it's shorter.

There are more emotions or they struggle a little bit more with controlling their emotions. And sometimes losses sometimes are the fault of the coach and they're also obviously more personal situations that gonna influence their career.

So as a coach, you don't always control on that. So, yeah, it's definitely different than in the ATP. It's a lot more consistent than in the ATP.

I suppose there's some roadblocks in the female world that are just life, aren't they, that can stop anything. You know, they stop between having babies and other things. That's. That's just life, isn't it?

And obviously, you're going to be out of a job then, and it's sort of. It's totally out of your control.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's. Some players got pregnant, some players lost motivation or, you know, like, it's.

A lot of things can happen and it's a one on one, and at the end the player has the power and if they feel they need. They need a change, well, they changed.

Yeah, well, I was coaching many times against Kerber, and for me, she's one of the best players in the last ten years. Some people say it's crazy that she wondez three grand slams. And the first thing I always say, it's true, she had to win a lot more.

And then people are surprised and I'm like, well, she's an incredible player. She is so talented, she's got great hands. I mean, she feels the ball so well. She's tactically really strong. She knows how to win matches.

I mean, there are so many good things about her. She's a lefty, of course. And for me, it was clear that she was like when we started, that she was a big candidate to win Wimbledon.

That's where you're going to be that successful player you want to be. And it was really good year, and Wimbledon was obviously very special.

Afterwards, she told me, because we had a training block in Mallorca on the grass, and she said when she left Mallorca, she knew she was going to be unbeatable in Wimbledon. So that was very special.

Did she tell you that after you left or after Wimbledon?

After Wimbledon, of course. Yeah, she was just playing fantastic the first rounds were a bit difficult just because she was tighten.

And then we had the Naomi match in the third round where I told her, okay, if you're gonna just push the ball, you have no chance. So for you, there's only one way. And you're gonna have to hit. You have to be aggressive.

You're gonna be the one that is trying to win the points yourself. Not passive, but proactive. And, yeah, she stepped it up. And from there, she really, really played a great tournament.

It must be tough for players that, you know, they put such high expectations on themselves, like to prepare to win the tournament that the early rounds, you know, you see they are tied on the tv. You see how they didn't start great and then they get into tournament. Is that expectation a big part of the tightness in the early rounds?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the first round is always a difficult round for every player.

It's like just getting started and then the first match on a new surface and a new tournament. Nobody likes to lose in the first round. And it's just things just come together as well.

You can train for a year, but it's not the same like playing a match.

So if you win the match and then the next day or two or two days later, you play your next one and you're always going to play better and then you're going to get a third one and your confidence is going to go up and you play better and your confidence is going up. And that's how players build their game in a tournament.

Yeah, I agree there. And as you, as a coach, finally taken the Wimbledon title, how did it feel for you?

Yeah, top of the world. I mean, the most beautiful tournament in the world. The most beautiful tournament of the year. Yeah. My favorite tournament. Yeah. Super special.

Super special. And also, it was the player's dream. It was Angie's dream since she was a young girl to win Wimbledon one day. So that was her big dream.

Yes, she won us Open and she won the Australian Open. But Wimbledon was her big dream. So that was very special to help someone fulfill their dream.

Was there any thoughts in your mind saying, you know, you've had a great start to your coaching career, winning slams, finals, and then you got a few years there. Were you thinking to yourself at any stage, you know, am I going to get back to that level? You personally, as a coach?

Yeah.

Because that's I'm sure where you want to be.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, with Kim, like, from our first six grand slams, we won three. So the 50% ratio, like, was a good one. I was getting comfortable in that.

But, no, you have to be realistic. And, you know, like, how many coaches have won a slam?

How many coaches have won multiple slams, and how many coaches have won multiple slams with different players? It's like. It's very rare. So. Yeah, but you start doubting yourself, for sure. Do I still have it?

And do I still know what it takes to win in grand slam? So it was very good for the confidence. Yeah, you're right.

Nice. And so. Okay, so after Kerber, did you work Kerber for the end of that year? When did things end with Angie?

Things changed after Wimbledon, and I had open conversation with her. Well, you achieved your biggest dream.

You're already a little bit later in the career, and the motivation for the rest of the year was really difficult.

And we spoke already, or she asked me about the next year when we went to China, and I said, well, AJ, I'm thinking for next year, and I think we're good, but, you know, like, it's not easy, the asian swing. And I know it's always a difficult moment of the year. Well, show me your motivation. Right? She's like, yeah, but I'm very motivated.

Okay, well, show me. And it was not good. So two bad tournaments where I didn't see the fighting spirit and, like, what she needs to be the champion.

And at some point, I got a phone call from Vika to go back to her. And that was a project that we never finished what we wanted to achieve.

Vika was struggling coming back and in her personal situation, and I had open conversation with Kerbere, and, yeah, I decided to go back to Vike. It was really hard because I had a fantastic year with Kerber.

Of course, there were some difficult moments, but many, many highlights on and off the court. But it was like, more like a business decision. And.

Okay, I mean, we're still friends, and we have a drink together, and when we see each other, and so everything is good. And it was a business decision at that time.

Okay, question here. This is.

I know we're going to talk about Naomi after this, but if you're a player today, and you've obviously, I think you're the right person to ask this, because you've worked, you've seen a range of grand slam winners. Do you? And you're going to win one slam in your career. So I'm a female player or male player? I'm going to win one slam. It doesn't matter which it is.

But player one wins a slam at 21st, 2nd slam they played in first year two, they win a slam. Next ten years, they win no slams. Or player two, you know, fights all the way up till 30, and they win a slam at 30 years old.

Which player do you want to be?

The second one.

But I also think, I mean, for sure, like, if you win, like, two grand slams at a young age, and then suddenly you don't win, probably something went wrong in your development, or maybe your motivation.

I see that winning a grand slam and everything that comes with it, and especially a lot of money, can kill someone's motivation to work hard and to develop. And. Yeah, you've seen a lot of players, and it's not easy. Not everyone is a Serena Williams that wants to win 20 grand slams.

Everyone has different ambitions, and I really understand that. So I think it's nicer to develop year by year and year by year. And then later in your career, to win a slam, that's like.

Yeah, I think that's much nicer.

Yeah, I think that's where I'd go, too. And then, plus, I started thinking about it financially. Obviously, if you win it early, you get deals and whatnot.

You can do well financially, but I think even to win a slam in your thirties, you've been there about for the few years before that, so you're doing okay financially, I reckon.

I, you know, you probably end up the same place eventually, but it probably feels a lot sweeter to have worked your ass off for 20 years, and then eventually the slam comes. That's the way I'm.

Yeah, or. Or get a peak in your career, not like, go downhill on your career. Right?

Yeah, but how hard must it be for a player to, you know, retire at the top? It must be one of the hardest things to do, especially, as you say, depends how much fire they have in them as well.

Yeah, I mean, it depends, player to player. Like, again, what's your motivation? What is your goal? Is your motivation to win multiple slams? Is your motivation to maybe win one slam in your life?

Yeah, it's difficult.

I suppose you only know that after you win one slam, because I'm sure Federer didn't set out to win 20 slams when he started.

Definitely not. And from the outside, it's all easy, you know, like someone, they judge players, of course, but you don't always know what's.

What's behind it and how they feel and again, like, no, but not everyone is the same. Not everyone wants to win every single match. Not everyone wants to win every single tournament. You know, like, it's.

It's not everyone is a messi or a Ronaldo. Right. It's just. It's just very different.

Okay, so, on to start working with Naomi.

Yeah. Very difficult decision at the end of eight of 19 with working with Vika.

But the year was a struggle, because, personally, she was not in a good spot. And it was, like, really unfortunate. Really tough to see. Then after Us Open, I got an offer to work with Naomi.

And then I went to China with Vika, and I had an open conversation with her about it. I said, I asked her, how do you see your next year? Because I got this offer, and you're obviously not in the right spot right now.

She told me she was going to think about it, and then a week later, she told me, I have no idea what's going to happen to me right now. So take the job and go for it, and go for your career. So, yeah, I did that and started working with Naomi at the end of 19.

Okay, so did you see a lot of potential there?

Yeah, I mean, the potential was huge. Huge. But a lot of margin to grow even. She had won two grand slams at that time. I still felt she was very, very far from her maximum.

And we started December 19. And to be honest, she was not in a situation where she wanted to develop into a better player.

She was in a situation where she was kind of the best player in the world and was more or less winning what she wanted to win.

And then we go to the first grand slam of the year and loses to Coco Gov in a very bad match where she mentally couldn't deal with the situation, playing this young Coco. And there was just. Just a really bad match. And then, you know, because we started in December, it was not always easy to communicate well with Naomi.

She was not the most open person. And after. After the Australian Open, we went to the Fed cup in Spain with Japan, and that's where we had a really good week.

And she opened up about her some issues she has or some struggle she has before matches. And we were speaking a lot, and things really changed after that.

We had a great training block going into Indian Wells, and I felt she was ready to win Indian Wells. And then Covid happened. So that's where things stopped. I went back to Belgium, and I was waiting for the moment I could travel back to the US.

And I actually found quite fast a way to get into the US. I don't know if it was official, but I found a way.

Did you have a private jet?

No. I'll tell you quickly, because suddenly there was a.

A rule that came out that there was an exemption rule for professional athletes and staff, but it was just mentioned that this exception is going to be there. And I didn't have a personal document or anything. So I said, okay, well, I have to go back to ds. Let's try it.

So I flew from Brussels to Dublin, because there's an american border in Dublin, and I was the only one on the plane. And then I go there and I show them the document and I said, well, where's your personal document? I'm like, nobody has a personal document.

But you see, there's an exception rule for professional athletes and their staff, and I need to train with Naomi Osaka. I need to get to the US. And they're doubting and doubting, and then they let me through.

Well, the good old irish common good.

Yeah, I mean, lucky, lucky, lucky.

And so I got to the US and I said, well, Naomi, we don't know when you can have a tournament again, but one thing is sure, like, when you come back, you have to be a better player. There's no other way, because there will be no other moment in your career when you're going to have like four, five, six months of training.

She played very well.

And from there, we continued the same work, developing, developing, and won the Australian Open 21 with, for me, very clear, very clearly her best tennis in her life. So great. Those were the best times.

And then shortly after, you probably got a call to say youre like, not again.

No, no, 21. From there, it started to be a little more difficult. Motivation was not the same. She was taking some time off for some mental issues.

And of course, you take two months off, then you come back and you expect to win. And obviously you're not, because everyone is developing, everyone is evolving, ten is evolving.

So you have to train yourself and find ways to become a better player. And there was still a lot of margin.

And that kept on going until the end of July 22, where there were definitely some good weeks, but then it was difficult after a loss. And, yeah, that's where things stopped with Naomi. And shortly after, she also stopped her first career.

Right, because, yeah, it was definitely problems with. Most problems with motivation and mental issues.

Okay, so that's.

Yeah, that was a difficult time again, like, because I had such a good time with her, and even things were difficult from results and from development. I still enjoyed the coaching job and I had a good time with her. And, yeah, it was a really fun job.

And you've recently been back working with her, but in between all that, what kept you busy?

Yeah, like, you know, like, I love my job, so I like to be busy, but at that time, it was a bit waiting for the next great job and had several conversations. And then I started last year in June or. Yeah, after. After the French Open, I started with Zhang.

It was definitely a player that I was very interested in. Very good player potential, really high, super hard worker. And, yeah, we started after the French, but let's say it was not 100% her decision.

It was not her calling me, like, I want to work with Wim. It was more the parents decision to stop with her previous coach and start working with me. And we had. We had some good months.

We won a tournament on the clay, went to the hard court. Things were. Were good, but it was not like, let's say, the ideal partnership that I was looking for.

I don't think we were, like, the ideal match, and even the results were positive, and even I believed really hard in her, you know, like, as a coach, you travel the world. I have a family. I travel the world for 40 weeks. There are lots of criteria that need to be very good.

And it wasn't that ideal partnership for me, and I felt that pretty much from the beginning.

I had per Rbera on the podcast, her.

I mean, he's still working with her at the moment, per, and it was during the point where he'd stopped, where he was back at home in Spain, he'd stopped. He wasn't part of the Coco team anymore. And we're asking, what's next? And he goes, oh, something's coming up, you know, soon I can't say anything.

And sure enough, the next day, I'd seen that he was back. He'd worked with Zhang already had. He'd worked with her.

Yeah, I mean, he worked with her from. From. I think from when she was 17.

Yeah.

And when I was coaching Zhang, he was coaching Coco golf, and, yeah, like, then when I stopped, when I stopped, he started working with her again. And, yeah, I mean, it's. Sometimes it's hard, and I understand it's hard for the player, but, you know, like, it goes. It goes two ways.

You know, like, I've been in the situation where things were going great, and that the player decides, like, I have to try something new. For me, it was in this situation, like, I don't feel this is, like, a great partnership for me. So, yeah, like, should I. Should I continue or. Or not?

How do you. It's a question I'm asking players and coaches more recently. I'm not sure how good of a question it is. I'm trying to figure it out.

I'm not convinced yet. But who is the boss in the player coach relationship?

Player pays the bills, but the coach is technically telling the player, advising the player, how do you see that question?

The ideal is that coach and the player on the same level.

It's a partnership where together, you want to achieve your goals, and that only goes when you're on the same line, and that you have mutual respect for each other and that you make decisions together, that you ask questions to the player and the player asks questions to you, and you make decisions together. Like, that's how I see an ideal partnership. But at the end, I mean, the player is the one who's making the big decisions.

If we have to make a decision about the tournament schedule, I can only advise what I think is best for the player. At the end, the player will take the decision. It depends, of course, when you say when. I work with Naomi, she's 26 now, and I advise her.

She's old enough and smart enough to make her own decisions.

What's best for her, if you work with an 18 year old who still has to learn, is new on the tour, I think it's ideal that an experienced coach takes a little bit more decisions there, but ideally, more or less, they should be on the same line.

It's the team game.

Definitely. Definitely. The player cannot achieve anything without a great team, and that's not only the tennis coach, but great physio and physical trainer.

All together. Only together, you can achieve your goals.

We've definitely learned that over the years. It's impossible to do it by yourself. But in all the players you've coached, Wim, who do you think overachieved? And who underachieved?

Underachieved Naomi so far. But I do believe that.

I mean, I'm very confident she will win more slams, a lot more, I believe, especially the way she's on track right now and the way she has developed herself into a player that's super focused and brings high intensity on the training and who wants to be the best version of herself. So Naomi has underachieved right now, but I do believe she will pick up there. Overachieved. It's a pretty negative thing to say someone overachieved.

It isn't. It isn't. Sometimes you may say somebody, look, I never thought I was going to win a slam or two. You can overachieve.

I think some people, junior, may have realistic expectations or the promise they're going to win loads of slams. They don't. They've underachieved and other players come out the blue, you know, and I think overachieve.

I can see your side with saying, yes, it is a bit negative. Player may not be happy saying, wim thinks I overachieved. What? But I think it's a positive thing as well.

It means you tried your hard out, you used every tool you could and you found a way to win. I think that's overachieving. I don't think it's as negative. It can be negative, but I don't think it's negative.

No, I will say different. Like, someone who made the most out of her career was definitely Joe. Joe Conta. I mean, she.

Yeah, I think she being number four in the world and semis in Wimbledon and, like, was it semis in Paris? So she. With her work ethic and really growing, because when she was 18 or 19, she wasn't.

She wasn't even close to her maximum and she grew year by year and I think she had an unbelievable career that went uphill and, yeah, I do think she really achieved the maximum in her career.

I personally think it's a positive. She may not be happy. She'd ring you in a few weeks. What do you mean? I should have won slams.

I mean, she could, but she reached a lot in her career. She had a great career. Probably that was the maximum.

Will we ever see you working with a male?

I think so. Oh, my youngest is six year old now. No, but I think so, yeah.

Tennis is tennis technique of women's tennis and men's tennis is the same, tactics are the same. I for sure have to do more scouting once I started to the men's tennis, but, yeah, I think I will be in men's tennis one day.

But again, I don't see it as an upgrade. I worked with the best female tennis players in the world, so I'm super proud of that. And I don't see it as an upgrade to be working with a male.

Is there one player, I'm not sure if you can tell us this, that you'd like to work with tomorrow? Who you would not say no. Who's your dream player to work with that you haven't worked with already.

No, I can't really say no. Of course, from Manston. It's like, I love to watch Alcaraz and sinner. I think it's just so beautiful to watch them play. Yeah, I love to watch tennis.

I'm a big tennis fan. And to be sitting in their box and to watch all of their matches must be a big pleasure, though.

Yeah. And just final question. One or two, you've made a lot of sacrifices.

You say you want to be with a player 40 weeks of the year, 35 to make, you know, to get the most out of it. And you have a family. How many kids do you have?

Two.

Two kids. So I know you talked about previously where you could try. They brought them with you, but now, the past few years, have they traveled with you?

How do you handle that side of things? It must be tough being away from home for so long, year after year. It's not that you're only doing two or three years.

You've been doing it for a long, like, 15 years now.

Well, I mean, sacrifices, you could say yes, but also, like, I love what I do. It's my passion. I love my job, and I don't want to do anything else in this world. So that's it.

Of course, I missed some weddings and funerals and, you know, but, yeah, I mean, that's life. You cannot, like, yeah, be there at every single event, like, and I don't know, I don't have fomo, so I don't.

I'm okay with, like, missing out some things.

And the family kind of, my two sons, I mean, they grew up with me traveling, so they kind of think that's a normal way when dad has to go to work, that he has gone for, like, four or five weeks, and it's actually going really well with. I mean, my wife, she works with me in my company, and she helps me a little bit with stuff. She's also flexible to travel with me sometimes.

The kids have traveled the past years to indian wells in Miami. They've been there several times. I was always. To be honest, I was always against it. Like, can I be focused? Is the player going to be okay with it?

So it's been good traveling with them.

Do they play tennis?

Yeah, they play, yeah, they play nine and six and. Yeah, both doing really well. And the oldest one combines it with football, but the youngest one is fully focused on tennis and.

Yeah, I mean they love it. It's nice to see their passion for the game.

They'll have good experience in their corner.

Yeah, I think so. I hope so. But yeah, at this moment they're training with more experienced coaches on that side.

On the younger ages, like starting without technique, getting the first basics of the technique and yeah, they have some really good coaches. I'm very happy with their development and we'll see.

You're going to be on the road for a long, long time, I feel, which is great.

Traveling is also my life, so I love to do that.

Yeah. Wim, thank you very much. Really interesting learn about your career. Congrats on the great job and I think you have many slams aheady.

I think looking at your trajectory of slam Wayne, I think due on next year.

Am I?

Yeah, yeah, I wish, I hope so. Next year. So I'll be keeping an eye out. Best of luck and thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.