Fame to Fulfillment

Toad the Wet Sprocket's Glen Phllips pulls back the curtain on his decades-long musical journey, revealing the emotional highs and lows that shaped his art.

He opens up about the pressures of success, how nostalgia has reshaped his audience, and why vulnerability is the core of his craft.

You'll get a laugh-out-loud story about a disastrous solo gig that turned unforgettable.

You’ll hear how songs like All I Want became a soundtrack for life’s most intimate moments, from weddings to hospice care.

And, he dives into how the shifting music industry challenges artists to adapt while staying true to their creative vision.

You'll also discover:

When Chaos Turned Into Art

A Songs That Save Lives

Redefining Success Through Connection

When Nostalgia Sparked New Success

Why His Vulnerability Fueled Creativity

The Evolving Sound that has Timeless Impact.

Check out Glen Phillips here: https://www.glenphillips.com/

AND follow Americana Curious on Instagram for the latest interviews and the behind-the-scenes with your favorite artists! https://www.instagram.com/americanacurious

We spotted the ocean at the head of the trail where are we going?

I had years of bitterness after Toad.

It weighed on me for a long time.

I've outdone that record.

The whole band agrees that New Constellation is our best album.

You know, songs like Grief and Praise that it's like, well, it was never a hit, but.

But it gets played on a lot of deathbeds.

It's played by a lot of hospice people.

The letters that I have had about that song and its meaning, knowing a song gets in people's hearts, knowing that it means so much to them at the most vulnerable points of their life.

That's how I gauge success now.

I'm pretty happy now, writing the best songs I can write.

We've been sounding better, We've been enjoying each other more.

Everyone's happier, everyone's more invested.

And for that to happen this long into our careers, unbelievable.

It's wonderful.

Americana music transforms the world.

And unfortunately, too many are unaware of its profound impact.

Americana musicians are the unsung heroes, and here you'll join us in exploring these passionate artists and how they offer inspiration and hope for the future.

This show makes it happen in a fun and entertaining way.

You'll discover new music that you'll love.

Hard earned Lessons from the road, the story behind favorite songs, a big dose of inspiration for you and your friends, and a good laugh along the way.

I'm Ben Fanink and my co host is Zach Schultz.

It's time to get Americana Curious.

Hey there, everybody.

Welcome back to your favorite podcast and mine, Americana Curious.

And we've got an absolute legend in the house today with Glenn Phillips.

You know him also as the soulful voice and creative force behind Toad the Wet Sprocket, the band that gave us unforgettable hits like All I Want and Walk on the Ocean.

Hello.

Striking gold.

Glenn and Toad the Wet Sprocket left a permanent mark on the music scene.

But Glenn didn't stop there.

When Toad hit pause, he took his artistry to new heights with five stunning solo career albums.

Delivery music, that's an intro that's introspective as well as heart stirring.

Oh, and let's not forget his incredible collaborations.

Teaming up with Nickel Creek for the Mutual Admiration Society and joining the folk pop super group Work Works Progress Administration.

Get ready, y'all.

Here comes Glenn.

Glenn, welcome to Americana Curious.

Thank You.

Thanks for having me.

So I had to stop Glenn when we got going here because he was telling us one of his most embarrassing moments from the stage.

And we just love opening it up with something like that.

So humiliate.

You like to humiliate your guests quickly.

Get it right out of the way.

I'm playing Philadelphia on one of my very first ever solo tours.

And I'm forgetting if it was the Anchor Bar or the Tin angel that was a Philadelphia show.

This was, like, right at peak ma Map Quest time, like, where we were just getting out of atlases, but just beginning to have, like, computers be able to tell us where to go.

So I would have, like, stacks and stacks of pages.

The directions, map Quest, continue on 95, left on 95, stay on 95.

Like, a whole three pages of just staying on 95.

Anyway, and I ended up playing the gig.

I'd eaten a lot of spicy chips that day, and I used to go commando, and I felt something go slightly wrong just before stepping on the stage and ran to the bathroom, wiped myself off, wasn't looking pretty, and went, played the show, broke a string, ran backstage, keeping my back to the back of the stage, clean myself off again, and that night ended up getting three encores.

Ended up one of my best solo shows ever.

Three encores and running back between each and just trying to clean myself up and get back.

Just kept my back to the wall, shook hands, back to the wall the whole night.

Luckily, I was staying with a friend who was going to medical school there, so he was not squeamish.

He gave me a pair of pants because he couldn't wash anything out sufficiently enough.

He gave me a new pair of pants, and I don't go commando anymore.

So that's my advertisement for always wearing underwear.

You asked embarrassing stories.

You mentioned underwear.

So I had to go there.

But the best thing of it was the people walking up afterwards and going like, man, you were so intense tonight.

I could just tell you were feeling something.

And I was just feeling like, yes.

We'Ve all been there.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

So, I mean, hey, Ed Sheeran, right?

I think it was.

It.

What was the.

Like at Wembley.

Oh, gee, something bad.

And had to run off stage and come back.

I mean, it happens.

Yeah, it.

It happens.

And I'm curious.

So I read an interview with Greg Allman back in the day, and we.

And we since had his son, Devin Almond, on the show.

But.

But Greg talked about this interview.

He's like, man, you could be feeling terrible.

You could have an illness, you whatever.

But like, when he would walk on that stage, he would just.

With this.

This otherworldly energy.

And then when you walked off, kind of all the pain said again.

But from your perspective, I mean, the.

Show must go on.

It's not just a thing you say.

It's actually like an imperative.

Unless you're physically incapable of completing the show, you do your absolute best and you hope you're good enough to make it so that people just think you had an intense night.

Well, yeah.

I mean, we had Steve Poltz on and he described having a stroke mid set and finished the set.

Of course he did.

But he's crazy.

Of course he did.

This is also Steve Foltz.

Yes.

Yeah.

Can I go back to the beginning.

Though, before late nights with him?

Oh, have you.

Oh, cool.

Oh, gosh.

So you started.

I mean, you started writing songs at a very young age, sort of.

Were you kind of a savant of music?

Musical savant?

I wrote lots of terrible songs really early.

I mean, my first song was probably the summer after seventh grade.

Either seventh or eighth grade.

I went to Interlaken camp.

I had my first kiss.

And I was really into Rush at the time.

And so I wrote like this, you know, six minute.

Because I thought all songs had to be long and have multiple.

Six minute ballad.

Yeah, Love ballads.

So not very Rush on the lyrics, but I was really trying best to get the riffs and the changes and all of that happening.

So you knew at an early age, though, that you.

You could write a song?

Yeah, I mean, I.

Yeah, I enjoyed writing songs.

At that time I was more of a theater kid and kind of thought that I was going to pursue that.

I.

And then my.

When I was a freshman in high school, I had a theater teacher who was talking about how he was teaching theater because he loved.

He loved the theater more than anything, but he didn't want to have to audition or get bad reviews or have the scrutiny.

And I'm like, oh, that's me.

Because the criticism would fry my brain, which it did, but.

And so I was like, I'll be a teacher.

And then that same year, I met the guys in Toad.

We were in choir and Oklahoma and our town together.

We were doing theater together and started writing songs with Todd.

They were all seniors.

I was a freshman and we started writing songs.

We had a band.

And then, you know, when I was 18, we got signed and so I didn't get to meet and all I.

And you wrote All I Want when you were 20.

And it became.

I Mean a fairly big hit.

Yeah.

So what was that like, twofold?

How what is that like as a young child to have this massive song that you created become really weird?

And we were very much, you know, we were deeply identified with being an indie band.

You know, we recorded our first two records before we got signed, like when I was 17, 18, and we had this indie attitude and we almost didn't put All I Want on on the record.

We didn't put Good Intentions, which ended up being a pretty big hit later on the record, specifically because it was too pop.

We're like, we're not a pop band, we're an indie band.

And so, yeah, All I Want almost didn't make it.

And it was the third single off the record.

It was nine months into the record and it was kind of a Hail Mary single.

And so it was really strange.

It was odd to have this song that kind of felt like an outlier was a little brighter than most of what we did.

And that became our calling.

You know, it's.

What do you.

What do you think was.

What.

What's the.

What do you think that was that song that made.

That resonated with folks that.

I mean, I think it' a positive song.

I think the song's.

You know, I'm trying to think.

I've never really parsed the lyrics to Walking on Sunshine.

I don't think there's much negativity in Walking on Sunshine.

But I think if there's a song, you know, I've just been learning Lovely Day by Bill Withers and like a song that manages to have melancholy and joy and contrast the two.

Because, like, you know, there's the.

That.

The cheap happiness of ignorance, right?

You just pretend stuff isn't happening and everything's great and then there's, you know, joy, which is, I think, being able to feel everything and to come out of sadness or darkness and even not come out, but still be holding it and.

And then still have hope, still have joy, still see beauty.

And I think all I want has that element to it, you know, the contrast of light and darkness.

And I think having, you know, once again, like, I'm just stuck on lovely day right now because I'd never learned it before.

So it was always, you know, lovely day.

Lovely day.

Always wish you pull like a little higher on that, but it's just a little flat.

But it's awesome.

But, you know, but the verse is like, you know, when the day that lies ahead of me seems impossible to face.

And, you know, it's like and someone else instead of me always seems to know the way.

It's like, it's.

But then it's like, you know, and you.

You have the.

The yin, the yang.

And, you know, I think all I want.

Head of yin, head of Yang, 120 beats per minute.

And you know, sing along chorus.

There you go.

And you said, neither am I.

One of the things I love about your story and to the West Broadcast story is that you did these albums without going to the record label, right?

You.

You did this your way.

You were indie band and that was cutting edge, right?

I mean, the people to have that kind of.

That kind of success, thinking back to like the negotiations with the labels and all that stuff, did that.

Did you feel more empowered through that experience or are you so dang young you're like, what you guys like?

Yeah, well, we had an attitude and, you know, we were young.

We didn't have a lot of needs.

So, you know, we.

I mean, basically what happened with Sony was they were trying to make a name with indie music, and we had been offered a lot of money by other record companies, and the money comes with strings.

And so we took, you know, recording only advances from Sony.

And that was our thing is we weren't going to be expensive and we got a high rate on the back end.

And the idea was that we would earn our money if we made any, and instead of taking it all up front, because that comes with all that pressure, so we were allowed to have creative control because of that.

I mean, when we got to the Coil album, we'd had two platinum records.

We didn't see a single royalty check until we'd had a platinum album and a gold record.

It was right when Dulcinea went gold.

And so we were like, maybe we should get some money.

So we took more money up front for Coyle and we tried not to play ball.

And that actually made for a really sour relationship with parts of the company.

You know, they wanted their hit now.

It wasn't like, okay, you recorded your album, it's fine.

Like, let's see if there's a hit there.

It's like from.

From the get go, there's this different kind of pressure.

And we kind of thought we could take the money but not play the game.

And that didn't work very well in the long term.

Yeah, so.

So when you're starting out with your music scene in Santa Barbara, is there, and you're going through this.

These trials, is there a band that you can look up to, see that kind of Came before you or that gave you advice or how do.

How do you know?

How do you know what to do?

You know, I mean, not so much.

I think we trusted our management.

We had.

We were lucky to have some really good people.

I mean, particularly Tom Gibson at Sony was our product manager through the whole career there, and he was a great advocate.

He's the reason All I Want was a single.

A and R wasn't into having another single, and he pushed for it when he kept.

He really believed in us and kept the.

Kept the company working the records.

So our product manager.

And we also lucked out with A and R at the company.

Our first guy was this guy, Ron Oberman, who was wonderful and just was like, sounds great.

You know, he was D.C.

and our second guy was Chuck Plotkin, who, you know, produced Dylan and Springsteen.

And he just wanted a cool record.

And he would.

He.

He said his job was to protect us from the radio guys.

And I remember him coming in with, you know, Bill Sunny and, like, listening the mixes, and he's like, wow, it's a wild stew.

You could take people on a lot of journeys.

The sequencing is going to be really important because, like, the narrative and emotional qualities, like, that's all he cared about.

So we totally lucked out.

And then Nick Terzo was with us as well.

And, you know, once again, towards the end, we had our first guy who just went, yeah, could be a single.

Like, that was the only response we got.

And so it.

It was a product for the first time in our career, which was hard for us to kind of handle.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Like one of the most.

Like Arnold Schwarzenegger's most profitable movie.

People are often surprised to hear.

You may know this is Twins and it.

Okay, because he set it up.

He and Dane DeVito set it up like you guys did early on in the game, where you didn't.

You're like, hey, this is.

We're going to do this.

And if it's a success, we're going to enjoy the.

We get the back end.

Yeah, yeah.

Versus how it can work.

Great.

It's just.

If you've ever looked at major label accounting, everything's recoupable, and it's recoupable.

You know, if.

If.

If they're making, you know, a couple dollars, $3, whatever profit off of record sold, you know, back in those days, or let's say it's $4 profit, they take $3 profit, and your dollar goes back to pay your debt.

And so they're very, very far in the Black.

By the time the artist sees anything and the accounting is set up in such a way like you're free to audit them, you have to pay for the audit, and you're making a bet that the amount that they've hidden from you, because usually the mistakes are all.

They pretty much always go in the company's, you know, in the company's favor.

And your audit, you're taking a risk that you'll find less than the audit costs.

And so you get a lot of advice, even straight on, of, no, I think there's this.

I think the funds are actually worth the cost of the audit that you have to pay.

But, I mean, that's, you know, a story as old as business.

Right.

So what's one of your favorite?

Schwarzenegger works out a better back end than we got.

Yeah.

I think it's his voice that wins him over.

Do you.

Do you think that.

So.

So looking back at the.

At the Toad, the West Brocket Days, what was one of your favorite shows from the road that did not involve spicy food and underwear?

Oh, man, we had a lot of great shows.

You know, the wildest shows, strangely, were Salt Lake City, Honolulu and Tijuana.

I remember those three.

It's like, I think Salt Lake City because, you know, people.

We played with this band, the Origin out there at the horticultural center.

It was just this huge building full of kids.

They went wild, and they had all the.

All the security was Polynesian dudes, these huge guys, and they would just be, like, plucking girls out of the front row who would, you know, were getting smashed against the front and kind of bringing them to safety and they could walk away.

No one messed with those guys.

They were amazing.

But that show was wild.

Salt Lake, you know, when Salt Lake lets loose, Salt Lake really lets loose.

So that was a ton of fun.

Honolulu, like, nobody comes out there.

We played this outdoor show, and people are, like, climbing over the fences and just.

We felt like.

Because we're, you know, we're kind of shoe gazy.

Like, back in the day when we would play radio festivals, you know, it'd be Rollins and Green Day.

None of them even looked at us in the hall.

Like, we were so, you know, we were sweet songs about sadness, you know, and so it wasn't cool at the time, I mean, which is.

I think part of our popularity is we were filling a niche for melancholy, you know, as opposed to angst.

And so.

Yeah.

And then the.

The last one of those, you know, San Diego, they would do these shows right over the Border in Tijuana.

And so all the 18 year olds would come to Mexico, they would get blastered.

And it was, it was.

That was wild.

Yeah, that's.

I don't know if those were the best, but those were the.

Like, the common thing is like the crowd is somehow in a mindset of just releasing energy to you guys.

Yeah, right.

They're waiting to be free, unhinged for a while.

And there's something.

When stuff is going on, I mean, there's the earlier, you know, story of that, but I mean, one of our other best shows was at Miami University in Ohio.

Forgetting what the benefit.

It was a benefit.

Forgetting what it was for.

But one of my dear friends took his life the day before.

You know, we got them, we had a day off, we got the news.

And that show was incredible.

I think just because we were so full of emotion, you know.

And once again, the show must go on.

And so every bit of that grief and surprise went right into, right into the show.

It was one of our best show.

You know, just remembered it for years and years is, you know, that night where you and the audience are on the same ride and it goes really deep.

So I wasn't bright colored light and I was a song on your lips in the night dreams were heard and I wouldn't rest the weight of the world sat hard on the chest and you were the view at the top of the climb you were the breath in the pause in time you were the beast that wondered if I could ever deserve ever would find when I was a riot.

Well, thanks for sharing that personal thing.

A lot of times I think we in the audience and Zach and I go to a lot of shows, we.

We don't know what's really on the artist's mind when they're performing.

When you have a moment like that, do you like to share?

Like did you share your friends dad with the crowd or did you like internal and just let it express through the music?

Yeah, it's not the point.

I mean there's.

I used to talk a lot about a lot of things from stage.

I've.

I'm like a little.

Especially with how divisive things are these days.

I don't want to shut up and sing.

I firmly hold that it is my right to say what I believe.

I also realized at some point that if I was alienating half the audience and just preaching to the converted with the other half, that I wasn't really doing any good.

I did a lot of that during the lockdown, live streams and Lost a lot of people and, you know, realize, you know, and, you know, still, like, if anything come, you know, I still.

I don't bite my tongue completely.

And when I fail to bite my tongue, it's amazing how many people blow up and are like, I'll never listen again.

You're.

It's like, wow, free speech advocate.

You're a little sensitive.

Yeah.

Oh, well, you know, it's interesting.

Just a couple years ago, I really kind of pulled back and I realized if I have a spiel that works, it's like finding things to say that are unifying or inarguable, you know, and sometimes.

And that is a shockingly, you know, movable item as well.

But just, you know, like this.

This last year, if I, you know, towards the end of the set, I would say something to the effect of, it's so good to see a room.

Every night we do this, you know, there's this room full of people, of strangers who forget that they've been told not to trust each other and harmonize and get along and sing and make peace.

And, you know, regardless of your social media feeds, because left or right, we're all getting feeds that are telling us to be paranoid and intolerant and.

And, you know, just that, like, you know, music is unifying, Harmonizing is unifying and realizing.

People don't, I think, come to my shows to be proselytized to or to be, you know, I'm not Billy Bragg, Right?

Yeah.

Thank God.

We've seen God for Billy.

Brad.

We know.

I love.

We just saw him, I don't know, a couple months ago, and it was awesome.

But, yes, he was saying everything that he wanted to say.

Hell, yeah.

And I think, you know, for people who say shut up and sing, I'm like, I'm sorry.

It's like you telling an artist not to think or feel is a stupid thing to do.

And, you know, I'm sorry if that leaves you with a handful of mediocre artists whose politics.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

The ones that shut up and sing are.

Well, well.

Or the ones who don't shut up and sing.

But if you can only listen to the artists that are on your side.

And, hey, I can even say Kanye, as much as I think he's gone off the deep end, you know, college dropout, like, hell, yeah.

That's a good record.

Yeah.

Nothing can change that.

But.

But, you know, it's.

And, you know, when people have a right, I think to silo.

But I have to go, like, what's my job and what's my, you know, what is the greater content of what I want to do?

And the stuff that I really believe in, you know, I'm about, you know, is love, kindness, vulnerability, better language around grief, better language around, you know, enduring hard times and finding common ground when things are hard.

And so I have to practice what I preach in that.

And I had to give up the habit of, you know, being on my high horse and telling people what to think.

And I mean, even the process of talking about this, I'm sure there's a dozen people who said, come and turn it off.

So I get it.

I get it.

And we're in that time where it's so aggrieved.

And I think, you know, even this year, the politics, like, I, as a lefty, I feel like there's been a real wake up call throughout.

How unheard people feel.

Yeah.

How disempowered, how unfair the system is, which everybody I totally agree with.

I don't think either party serves anymore how much people want change, how frustrated they are and how they feel disrespected and unlistened to and angry.

And I'm.

I'm understanding that better.

I don't think I got it.

And I think I've been at times part of the problem.

And so I have to ask what I actually believe in and what.

What I think is in my wheelhouse to be able to move the needle.

And so I want the Billy Braggs.

I want the.

I want the people shaking their fist and seeing their truth.

And I also, at the end of the day, I'm probably better when I talk about issues of the heart than, you know, it's just a better subject for me.

I'm better informed.

So we can talk grief as much as you want.

I'm really good with grief.

All that you love be taken someday by the angel of death or the servants of chain in a flood water Time without rancor.

What's a.

What's a misconception, Glenn, that people have about your music?

A lot of people thought we were a Christian band back in the day.

There's a lot of imagery, biblical imagery, because it's the mythology of our culture.

It's something people understand.

It's a language.

I'm fascinated with not having grown up in the church.

And so for me, you know, I started reading mostly Apocrypha, like, when I was like, 16, 18.

Let's pick a rare book of the Bible to start on.

Yeah.

I don't know.

And I got really into Eileen Pagel's Who's.

She's a great agnostic style.

She's fascinating.

And so, like, you know, songs like, you know, Fly From Heaven and stuff, I was.

I was heavy into Pegels, and so I was, you know, kind of feeding off that stuff.

Yeah.

And so.

But what I love is that I've had people come up about Dulcinea and say as a record.

I've had people who thought that that was a record about being born again and were shocked to find that it wasn't.

And I met another person who thought it was about coming out of the closet, and it wasn't about that either.

And I love that it worked for both of them, because if there's something that it's about, it's wrestling with who you are, trying to find truth, like what's.

What's true inside you.

I was having that experience.

I was trying to find truth.

I was in college, very.

Felt aimless at times, and it spoke.

To me that way.

And so those things are universal.

So I think if that, like.

And I.

I tend to write.

I call it like emotional specificity with situational ambiguity.

You know, so you don't necessarily understand the thing that's happening, but there's enough details to kind of put you.

You in a place where you can imagine well, and that, you know, in emotional specificity, it's not just one thing.

Like, my favorite.

One of my favorite words is.

Is ambivalence.

Because, like, the way, you know, like, the ambivalent gets used.

Meaning, like most people think of it as.

It means you don't feel strongly about something.

Right.

I'm ambivalent.

I don't really know, but like, the etymology of the word, it's ambivalent.

Right.

Dual valence.

So it means you feel two things really strongly that might be looked at as being contrary.

You know, I really want to go to this family reunion.

I'm scared to death of Uncle Ted, and I never want to talk or, you know, whoever.

I have not.

Not my Uncle Ted, but, you know, it's like, it's.

But, you know, you feel two things really strongly.

You're really excited about moving into the new house.

You're scared shitless.

You're, you know, you're having all these emotional reactions you don't understand.

And I think emotional tension carrying ambivalence around and, you know, being non.

Dual.

Right.

As you're.

As you're thinking about your feelings, like it's a blend of colors.

It's.

You know, you're not one thing or another.

You're always a number of things, and so trying to have that kind of, you know, a slightly complex emotional palette, I think make songs resonate for people in a different way.

Like.

Yeah.

So how do you.

I read something about a game that you play with Matt the Electrician, who's a songwriter.

Is this a.

It's a text.

Well, explain it to our listeners.

But is it just to stay sharp or.

Yeah, I mean, I've been so bad at it this year, I completely fell out of it over the last six months.

But I still get the emails here.

Wait, I'm going to call up.

Just a second.

Matt.

Matt, Electrician.

Come in, Matt.

All right, here he is.

So it's like every week there's an email that will say something like, hey, song peoples, Happy Sunday.

Hope your worlds are spinning.

New title.

There were no flowers.

Do Friday by Midnight.

Art emoji.

And so.

Wow.

And then there's like, 24 people in the group.

And on Friday, everyone but turns in a song and it's not responding.

I mean, I'm an asshole.

There were no flowers, so.

But it has to have those words in order at some point.

It doesn't have to be the chorus, doesn't have to be the title.

Just those words have to appear in the song, and they're.

They're usually like stumbly phrases.

You know, he likes to throw things at you that are slightly awkward.

And.

And so it's.

You know, and.

And everyone.

Nobody has to comment on anyone else's song.

Nobody has to write the songs.

It's, like, recommended that you try to get a minute, you know, at least a minute of music.

And it doesn't have to be good.

It just has to be done.

And it just keeps everybody kind of in shape.

You know, you get tossed something.

And I found when I was.

You know, I just had realized I was getting divorced, you know, 10, 11 years ago, and I was trying to bypass the experience I was going through.

I was, like, trying to write, I'm going to write a dance record, and I couldn't write a thing.

And then I got these titles from him.

What was the title?

It was Reconstructing the Diary and then Leaving Old Town.

And I got these titles from Matt, and I started writing the songs I had to write and that I wouldn't do on my own.

But that title, you know, it's.

You kind of dive and you see what you come back with.

And, I mean, the songwriting process anyway, for me is really exploratory.

I will often have a thing I want to Write about.

And I sit down with the intent of writing about that, and then a line will come along that's way better than the song I was writing, but it doesn't really fit, right?

I'll sing one line.

It's like, oh, that's true.

And so my job as a songwriter is to put the song I wanted to write off for a later date and write the song that I'm writing instead.

You know, and let that.

Let that line or two tell me what the rest of the song is about.

Like, you follow the truth and not necessarily what happened.

There's.

There's also that thing, but you follow the truth of the song and, you know, you can start in one direction and end up a completely different place.

But I love that process of writing.

It's discovery, right?

It's, you know, when people talk about the muse coming, it's like, you gotta listen to the muse.

You don't tell them what to.

They're not chatgpt.

You're not getting edited stuff back from them.

Like, the muses have an agenda, and you gotta listen to that.

So, so powerful.

So many things in there.

But you seem like a songwriter or songwriter, right?

You show up every day, you're writing.

You know, you've got a process, at least until the last six months maybe.

But you.

Five solo albums, man, and I mean.

I mean, you've got more solo albums now than Toad the Wits, Sprocket albums, correct?

I think so, yeah.

I mean, I've written a lot of Songs of Variance, and I think as I get older, you know, even, you know, post divorce, losing my soundproofed room.

I lived in an old studio for a while.

I lived in Dishwaller's old practice studio for a year and a half a while ago.

Wait, wait.

Dishwaller?

Remind me.

Tell me all your thoughts on God.

Yeah.

So do you live in the Dishwallah studio?

It was in this, like, old lighthouse building.

It was a lighthouse keeper's house on the mesa in Santa Barbara.

And they'd made all the walls.

It was literally, I was looking for a place to live.

And the first apartment I looked at, it's like, that looks like the bedroom wall looks like a.

Like, it had a bed in it.

But it's like that window looks like a studio window.

It's got, like, the double glass at the angle.

Like, I gotta call this person.

And so it was nicely soundproofed.

That's all I'm saying.

Like, carved into the wall.

Anywhere was here.

No good.

No, but there were, you know, living now it's like, you know, remarried and the place where Ian.

There's not a lot of acoustic separation, so I don't like anyone to be able to hear a thing I'm doing when I write.

So it's like I have to choose my times, and it's writing discipline.

Before, cell phones in the Internet was much easier for me, and, you know, so it's.

It's interesting now to try.

Honestly, co writing is the best thing for me these days because it gets me in a room with somebody, and I can't disappear.

Yeah.

I was gonna ask.

Keep my attention.

I was gonna ask.

Because you love collaborations, so I love collaborating.

I love assignments.

You know, it can be difficult for me at home.

I'm, you know, really trying to figure out my mind these days.

The road is very easy for me because all the tasks are very.

They have to be executed.

They're finite.

Right?

You got to get to the venue, you got to sound check, you got to set up the merch, play the show, shake the hands, settle the show, settle the merch, pack up, get to sleep, do it again.

Like, every day is this kind of combination of novelty because it's a different setting, so you're figuring out different stuff.

But it's like, everything must be done every single day.

And when I get home, it's very.

It's daunting because there's not.

I haven't learned how to have a great structure at home.

I mean, the people I know who've become, like, professional songwriters at home, like Dan, well, like, they have schedules.

They.

They're really good about that.

And I have, as of yet, been truly terrible.

And it's something I need to work out because it gets me depressed.

But it's weird.

It's a difference to go, like, I gotta play the best show I can play tonight.

And when I get home, I should be thinking, I gotta write the best song I can write right now.

And that's the advice.

You know, the book that I keep starting and stopping on songwriting to give all the advice I don't take, is.

That'S the best way to learn, is to teach it.

Yeah, I know, but.

But is you write the best song you can write right now.

And I come home and I'm like, I gotta write the best song I've ever written.

I gotta write great songs, and I can't write if it's not a great song and that then you don't write.

I gotta write important.

You know, it's like Toad, like, all.

The huge hits you had before.

Is it.

Is it empowering or is it like a big.

Like, I gotta outdo that album.

It weighed on me for a long time.

I've outdone that record.

I mean, I think the whole band agrees that New Constellation is our best album, without a doubt.

It's the best songs, it's the best playing.

It's best arrangements we got.

We became a better band.

And, you know, individual songs I have written, you know, songs like Grief and Praise that it's like, well, it was never a hit.

Maybe somebody will do, like, a country cover of it someday.

But it gets played on a lot of deathbeds, gets played by a lot of hospice people, gets played in a lot of therapy sessions.

Like the letters that I have had about that song and its meaning, or the song, you were meant to be here with so many parents of kids with disabilities.

And, like, I like, it's really beautiful.

Like, knowing a song gets in people's hearts, knowing that it means so much to them at the most vulnerable points of their life.

And, like, that's how I gauge success now.

Being on the radio, you know, is an artifact of time, luck, marketing.

You know, we were on a major label at a time when things were changing rapidly in radio, when formats were incredibly open and we were doing something that was just indie enough to be indie, but also kind of pop enough to be pop.

We had this little sweet spot where we could get played on rock radio and pop radio and the emerging, you know, they weren't even called alternative stations yet.

So, like, we, you know, it's an artifact of timing, and I think that's fine.

You know, there are a lot of great songwriters now who are coming out of TikTok world, are coming, like.

And TikTok, you know, the technology of the time and the media of the time will also favor certain kinds of artists, certain kinds of music, certain kinds of personalities.

And I had years of bitterness after Toad thinking, like, I'm a better songwriter than I was when I was 18.

I didn't know what I was talking about.

I was, you know, faking it half the time.

And I'm a better writer now.

And I still believe that, but it's different, you know, And I'm not hitting people in their 20s when they're making their notebook of the soundtrack of their life, right?

It's like there's something about hitting people just as they leave home, just as they're creating their adult identity.

Those albums stick with you in a different way.

And so, you know, and, you know, now I'M there as, you know, adult children leave the house or as people get divorces or, you know, I'm good for all that stuff.

But, you know, let's follow by the new record.

That's.

That's a great one if you're facing major life changes.

But it's, you know, all of that stuff, you know, I.

I have to define SEC success differently because of the biometrics of popularity.

You know, so we're having an upswing because 90s music is back in and there's a multi generational thing of people's kids in their 20s who grew up listening to us because their parents listened to us.

They come and see our shows now, which is awesome.

And so all of that is happening.

But there's also, you know, if we're, you know, maybe some director will feature a new song of ours in a film or a TV show or a trailer, and we'll have our Kate Bush moment, you know.

You know, you're like Stranger Things.

I mean, hell, like, what a great song and also what a completely surprising, like, windfall for her, right?

And that could happen.

I'm looking forward to it.

I still think all I want somebody should, you know, do the hip hop version.

Hopefully that'll happen someday, you know, but, you know, barring that, like, lightning strike, I'm pretty happy now, you know, writing the best songs I can write.

And, you know, I love touring.

The band is in a.

You know, we really turned a corner a few years ago and it's been getting better.

We've been sounding better, We've been enjoying each other more.

Everyone's happier, everyone's more invested.

And for that to happen this long into our career is unbelievable.

It's wonderful.

So, you know, trying to be happy for what I have, if I, if I go comparison, you know, even you too, you know, they're not as big as you two used to be, and I'm sure they have to fight.

Like, we're not the biggest band in the world anymore.

Like, what did we do wrong?

It's like, dude, just go, great.

You're good.

Like, the idea of a musician and your band defining success and impact on your own terms versus popularity versus impact and the depth of your newer songs.

I mean, clearly it's a powerful story, my friend.

Yeah, well, and, or, or, you know, I've been locked in things like, you know, affording a house in Santa Barbara post, which I, I almost got one before I lost the house years ago.

And, and, you know, it's like.

And the, you know, once Again, the things that just go through your mind again and again.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

And it's like, well, now I, you know, if I could ever afford a home here, it would be truly remarkable.

But even a good amount of success doesn't get you a home.

Speaking of success, you mentioned something about some stories with Steve Poltz and.

What?

Oh, it's one of your favorite stories.

No, I mean, he was on our show.

He told about Jewel.

He talked about all kinds of stuff.

Oh, he's got crazy stories, clearly.

I will generally, in his crazy stories, let him tell them because also he tells them best.

And I have known Pulse.

I knew Pulse in his wild days.

Right after Toad broke up, we did a tour.

When did they want to call it?

He called it Fraser Fair.

That was when.

When Toad broke up for the first time.

Fraser Fair instead of Lilith Fair.

And he.

It was him and Pete Droge and.

Wait, I'm messing up.

Oh, and John Doe from X.

So awesome tour.

And four of us, we each played like an hour.

It was a really long night.

And that's how I got to know him was on that tour.

And that was like more not.

Not his wildest of wild days, but he was still in.

In the wild days.

And so I've known him through a lot of changes, you know, and he's always had this.

Just the, the.

His lust for life is kind of unmatchable and his, his kindness and his just like he is there, you know, Like, I would love to.

I don't know if I could handle feeling as alive as he does, but I would like to try it for at least a couple hours sometime.

But it's, you know, my favorite story with him is seeing him play.

We did a show.

We were both playing this festival in San Diego once.

And like, because he does love having the crowd in the palm of his hands and he was playing.

I think it was a song about a veteran.

It was like this very heartwarming.

Like, you know, he has his ones where he's really going for the like, wrap his hand around your heart and squeeze a little song.

And he just done this song and everybody was like holding their kids or their partner and like having this, you know, people were crying, like he totally had them.

And his very next song he had.

He pressed play on his phone that was hooked up through the PA and it started doing this.

And he did this song called Sewing Machine about somebody, like, steals children and sews them to the wall.

And he was, you know, doing these, like, scary movies and like, to just go from, like, tears and hugs and, oh, Steve, whatever you say.

And then sawing marching, and he's like, crazy.

I can totally picture that.

And people are, like, hiding their kids away and, like, nobody knows what to make of it.

And he just stays in 100.

He's like, this is what I did.

This is me.

It's not giving two in the best way possible.

Like, even at the expense of your audience.

Like, he's gonna go where he's gonna go.

And, man, if you want to take that ride, like, go.

Go for it.

It's.

It was.

It was one of the most audacious, like, U turns I've ever seen a performer do.

We gotta.

We gotta get you two to write a song together.

I know.

I gotta go out to Nashville and write with him.

Do you have a dream collaboration that.

That you would like to work with somebody?

Oh, I have a.

I mean, a bunch of dream collaborations, but, yeah, I do.

All right.

We're keeping it secret.

Yeah.

Well, what is your parting thought for our listeners today?

Because, man, you can take this anyway, Glenn, talk about music philosophy.

Oh, we could do.

Actually, I will tell you.

I'm going to go back to the last question and then we'll get back to the other.

I'd like to write with McGee.

Oh, okay.

I think McGee's amazing and the collaboration on the Dijon album absolutely is stunning.

His aesthetic is so interesting to me.

His writing is so good.

His melodies is like.

He's a great musician doing something really unique and innovative.

And if I could spend time the way Dejan spent time with him and make a record like that, hell yeah.

Awesome.

There you go.

So what's the last bit?

I'll just open it up to you, Glenn.

I mean, we.

We covered a lot of territory here and it's been so much fun.

What's your party thought for our listeners?

You can see if you want.

I'm not through these.

It won't.

Won't work well.

It'll sound all zoomy and messed up, but I don't know.

Just looking forward to being out.

I'm doing some shows coming up in December.

I'll be out solo.

Gonna be in the Rockies with John Craig.

February, going to do a couple shows with Big Head Todd, opening for them acoustic in.

In January.

Toad's going to go out again in the summer.

Just, you know, it's another year.

We did.

I did a hundred plus shows this year, and I hope to do a handful less next year because I like being home.

So trying to make that balance.

But, you know, if you.

If you do less shows, you have to join the Matt the Electricians writing class some more.

I will.

And maybe I'll do some more.

I used to do some songwriting lessons online and stuff like that and having that stuff going, so, you know, making it work.

It's an interesting era to be a musician.

You know, it's a very interesting era, generally, but it's.

It's a really.

I mean, you know, it's the best of times, it's the worst of times, right?

It's like.

And I've met older musicians who still can't get over the fact that people don't buy records anymore.

But, you know, I think we've always, you know, since recorded music started, we've always kind of been at the whim of the current technological trend.

And, you know, the thing about those who hold the purse strings is, you know, as.

As Gillian Welch said, they.

They understand that we're going to do it anyway, even if it doesn't pay.

So, you know, it's something you got to do if you got to do it.

And, you know, I just.

I don't know.

I love playing music.

I love musicians.

I love people who've made art their life.

You know, it feels really lucky just to even get to know the people I know.

And, you know, that at the end of a long day of driving and checking all those things that I get, you know, an hour or two to play songs for people, it's like, it's.

It's pretty.

Pretty great life.

Americana curiosity.

Go check out Glenn on tour and give his other albums a spin, which is kind of a throwback to album days, so go with that.

All right, Glenn.

Thanks, my man.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Be well.

Nice to be here, my heart.

Breath my way through a string of stars to write your.

Thanks for joining Zach and I for this episode of Americana Curious.

Subscribe where you listen to your podcast so you are notified when a new episode is released.

I'm Ben Fanning, and it's been great sharing these artists and music with you.

Until next time, stay Americana Curious.