Have you ever wondered if the Book of Revelation was meant to be a riddle for today's readers, or if its mysterious symbols actually made perfect sense to the early church? In this episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders welcomes back theologian Leo De Siqueira to unpack the language, history, and meaning behind Revelation’s most puzzling images—like the beast, Babylon, and the infamous 666. Together, they challenge modern assumptions, reveal surprising insights from the Aramaic text, and explore what John’s visions truly meant for his first-century audience. If you’re ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about Revelation, this conversation is for you.

"Heaven and earth becoming one—that is the revelation and the culmination of Christ's victory." - Leo De Siqueira

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Leo De Siqueira is a theologian and author renowned for his in-depth, three-part commentary series on the book of Revelation. His scholarship focuses on understanding Revelation within its first-century context, highlighting the significance of the Aramaic language and the victory of Christ. With academic training in Hebrew and Greek, Leo leverages his linguistic expertise to unearth subtle nuances within biblical texts, bringing fresh insight into the prophetic literature. He is recognized for challenging traditional interpretations and promoting a holistic, historically informed approach to Scripture.

Reasons to Listen:

1. Discover how understanding the original Aramaic language and first-century context radically changes the meaning of key themes in Revelation—beyond what most modern interpretations offer.
2. Get myth-busting answers to hot topics like the rapture, 666, the Beast, and the rebuilding of the temple—explained in a way that challenges long-held beliefs with historical and biblical evidence.
3. Explore why the prophetic imagery in Revelation resonated deeply with its first audience, and how those symbols connect to the bigger story of life, death, and hope in the Bible—possibly reshaping your whole perspective.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

1. Leo De Siqueira’s 3-Part Commentary Series on Revelation - Leo references his own three-book series that dives deeply into Revelation from a first-century, Aramaic, and historical context. (Book titles include in part: "Dawn of Eternity.")
2. Bible Translation Software - Leo mentions using Bible translation tools for studying Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic manuscripts to gain greater nuance and understanding.
3. Historical Writings of Josephus - While not discussed in detail, both Leo and Tim reference the historical accounts of Josephus, especially regarding events surrounding 70 AD, making his works a core supplemental resource.

Action Steps for Listeners:

1. Re-examine Your Understanding of Revelation - Instead of interpreting Revelation strictly through modern lenses or one-verse doctrines, approach it as first-century listeners would by considering language, historical context, and Jewish prophecy.
2. Explore the Historical and Cultural Context - Read Leo De Siqueira’s commentary series or similar resources that incorporate Aramaic texts and first-century Jewish perspectives to broaden your understanding of Revelation’s symbolism and meaning.
3. Dig Deeper into Biblical Languages and History - Use Bible translation software or online courses to explore passages in their original languages (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic) and consult historical sources like Josephus for context around New Testament events.

Key Lessons:

1. Context Is Key to Understanding Revelation - The Book of Revelation was originally written in a first-century context, likely in Aramaic, and was full of symbols and references that would have made sense to its original audience. Understanding historical, cultural, and linguistic context—especially the Law and the Prophets—opens up deeper insight into its true meaning.
2. Beware of “One Verse” Doctrines - Leo strongly cautions against building major beliefs on isolated verses. These “one verse doctrines” are described as “a cancer to the body of Christ,” often leading to misunderstanding and division. Instead, scripture should be approached as a cohesive whole.
3. The Rapture, Revisited - Contrary to popular teachings, the idea of a “rapture” as commonly depicted isn’t actually found in Revelation—or anywhere else in scripture as a clearly described event. Leo explains that verses often used to support rapture theology are misunderstood when removed from their original context.
4. Prophetic Literature Is Both Immediate and Timeless - Prophecy in the Bible, including Revelation, speaks to immediate historical circumstances but also carries ongoing, timeless relevance. The messages directed at the seven churches, for example, were both real congregations and representative of wider, universal church experiences.
5. Much of Revelation Has Already Taken Place - The events described in the first 19 chapters of Revelation largely correspond to historical events around 70 AD, including the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Mosaic age. Seeing this helps demystify the text and dispel modern sensational interpretations.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 Introduction to Revelation Revealed

01:51 The Importance of Aramaic in Understanding Revelation

05:43 The Deeper Meaning of Salvation and Life

10:31 The Urgency and Context of Revelation's Prophecies

18:20 The Seven Churches and Their Significance

23:14 Literal vs Symbolic Churches

23:52 Urgency in Revelation

26:24 Scientific Approach to the Bible

28:24 Contextualizing Biblical Interpretation

30:16 Rapid Fire: Hot Topics in Revelation

31:02 The Rapture and Resurrection

35:05 The Beast and 666

36:51 The Two Witnesses

37:15 Rebuilding the Temple

39:26 Understanding Revelation's Timeline

43:06 Final Thoughts and Next Episode Preview

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Leo De Siqueira: one verse doctrines

are a cancer to the body of Christ.

2

and they're so prevalent.

3

Tim Winders: Welcome back

to Revelation Revealed.

4

I'm kind of titling this,

everything you've wondered about

5

Revelation and what it really says.

6

The dragons, the bowls, the mark, the

trumpets, and of course that ominous

7

6, 6, 6, that, people have heard

about and used and thrown around.

8

Revelation is full of symbols and

questions that can confuse people, but

9

what if those images made perfect sense?

10

Mostly perfect sense to the

people who first heard them.

11

In this episode, Leo de Sequeira is back.

12

He helps us walk through Revelation the

way the early church did with eyes on

13

Jesus and confidence in his kingdom.

14

Let's look at what Revelation really says.

15

And what it doesn't.

16

Our guest is Leo d Sequeira, theologian,

and author of a three-part commentary

17

series on Revelation that sinners

around first century context, the Aramic

18

language, and the victory of Christ.

19

If you missed the first episode, make

sure you go back 'cause that's where

20

we kind of went over the foundation.

21

In this episode, we're gonna be

actually diving into Revelation.

22

I highly recommend you go back, but

this one will stand on its own too.

23

Leo, welcome back.

24

Leo De Siqueira: Hey,

good to be back, Tim.

25

Tim Winders: So one thing I think we

missed, maybe in this first one that

26

I wanna kind of get started with as

we get started with some of these

27

exciting topics like The Beast and

Babylon, and might even throw in a

28

little bit of rapture and, you know,

talk about where that is in Revelation.

29

And so you could point to

those scriptures for us.

30

Tell us about the language.

31

I didn't get into this in the first one,

but Aramaic, you kind of consider yourself

32

somewhat of a linguist and the language

that this was written in or spoken in

33

or was shared in is kind of important.

34

Talk a little bit about that

before we dive into some of these

35

exciting topics.

36

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

37

So, just by way of of clarification, I

did have the opportunity to study, Hebrew

38

and Greek in Bible college or seminary.

39

And, Aramaic is very similar to Hebrew.

40

So I was able to you know, what

I'd learned and start to learn

41

how to, go through the Aramaic

version of the New Testament.

42

And, thank God for, bible

translation software as well.

43

That certainly helps.

44

And so, you know, I'm, by no means a

teacher, but certainly have been able

45

to learn enough to go through the text.

46

I really became obsessed with just

trying to unearth and dig as much

47

as possible, and I'd say really felt

like an Indiana Jones experience.

48

Just, I just wanna

unearth as much as I can.

49

I don, I, you know, I have no

regard for theological camps or

50

trying to uphold a specific view.

51

It's just like, I just wanna know

what what's there, and then I'll

52

wrestle with whatever I discover.

53

One thing.

54

Never really sat with me is, you

know, modern scholarship is convinced

55

that everything is Greek, that Jesus

spoke Greek, everybody spoke Greek

56

and everything was written in Greek.

57

And okay, perhaps,

58

there's too many tell signs

even in the New Testament that

59

suggests otherwise, you know?

60

And I just wasn't convinced of that.

61

so just started to do some digging.

62

Realized that we have.

63

an Aramaic New Testament

that still exists today.

64

It's not the original, right?

65

like the Hebrew Bible that we read

today is not the original Hebrew, right?

66

That's a eighth and ninth century edition.

67

Right by the Maites.

68

That's why it's called the ma text.

69

And you know, the Greek that we

have today is not original, so

70

we have to accept those things.

71

And the Aramaic too.

72

But it certainly is, it points back

the earliest manuscripts, which I do

73

believe were, were, composed in Aramaic.

74

You know, maybe not every book of the New

Testament, but certainly a lot of them, I

75

believe would've been composed in Aramaic.

76

And if anything, the apostles,

that was their first language.

77

Right.

78

And we have a lot of contextual evidence.

79

We have a lot of historical

evidence for this.

80

That whole region, Aramaic

was the lingua franca, Is the

81

primary language of that region.

82

And you know, even you read through

the Gospel of John, it's like, and

83

then he came to this place, which

an Aramaic was, and then, you know.

84

He was crucified here,

which in Aramaic was called.

85

It's like, well, why would you

mention that it's in Aramaic if

86

nobody spoke it or referenced it.

87

Right?

88

So it's just really

fascinating, little tidbits.

89

And what I found is going through the

Aramaic text is that there's really

90

some subtle nuances to the Greek

were actually quite enlightening.

91

for instance in Revelation 11, the

Greek Bible talks about, outside of

92

the temple being destroyed, but the

Aramaic actually talks about the

93

inside of the temple, being destroyed.

94

And that was really fascinating

because that's kind of the key event

95

of 70 ad is, you know, at this time

it was Titus that they went right into

96

the holy place and they sacked it.

97

They took all the gold,

and then tragically a Roman

98

soldier set it all on fire.

99

And that's why the holy.

100

Of holies burned down and

all the temple burned down.

101

But it's like this prophecy of

John actually calling out the

102

fact that that was gonna happen.

103

You only find that in the

Aramaic, not in the Greek.

104

Right.

105

So there's some really

interesting, subtle nuances there.

106

the other fascinating thing, and

this is less to do with Revelation,

107

but more to do with soteriology,

the doctrine of salvation is

108

The Greek talks about salvation.

109

You know, what must I do to be saved?

110

Right?

111

That famous question that somebody

asked Jesus, the word saved in Aramaic

112

is, is not the word saved at all.

113

It's not soso, it's

actually the word life.

114

And if you swap out every instance in the

New Testament where you see the word saved

115

for life, takes on a whole new meaning.

116

So the man who comes to Jesus,

he says, what must I do?

117

In order to have life, which is

so much deeper than, you know,

118

how do I get my fire insurance?

119

Which is how we read that today.

120

And you look at the gospels,

especially John a Life is a

121

central theme, death life.

122

John, in fact, has an entire

doctrine his writings, including

123

revelation of a first death.

124

And a second death of a first

resurrection and a second resurrection.

125

This is unique to John, and if you

string everything that he's written

126

together, you see thematically, he

talks about a first death, a first

127

resurrection, a second death, and a second

resurrection, which is quite fascinating.

128

These are very central, central themes,

and again, the Aramaic really highlights

129

those themes in a way that the Greek not.

130

Tim Winders: It is fascinating.

131

I believe it was about 10, maybe 12

years ago, my wife Gloria and I, we

132

kind of decided we need to learn Hebrew.

133

Leo De Siqueira: Hmm.

134

Tim Winders: And so we signed up for

some online class and we started,

135

we like to think we're okay.

136

Smart.

137

We found out we're not.

138

It was tough.

139

It was hard.

140

and we unfortunately quit

shortly into that process.

141

but I do think all that you're saying,

Leo highlights, while some of this.

142

There's a simplicity to

the story of the Bible.

143

I don't like to oversimplify, but it

does make more sense when you understand,

144

but there's also these barriers that

kind of keep us from really digging in.

145

I love what you brought up.

146

I don't wanna get off track with what I

really wanted to cover in this episode.

147

Maybe this will be episode three, but the

mindset that many people currently have

148

that we will put in the Christian camp.

149

Is, like you said, fire insurance,

that Jesus did what he did, just

150

so we could accept that, have

salvation and get to heaven.

151

That's it.

152

that is the ultimate story of the

Bible and that that's not accurate.

153

Correct.

154

Leo De Siqueira: You know, it was

like a, um, it was, um, a minister

155

slash scholar, about 150 years ago.

156

I'd asked these questions like,

where was the instruction manual in

157

Genesis warning, Adam and Eve of Hell?

158

Where was the instruction manual to Moses?

159

Warning The Israelites of Hell.

160

Right.

161

And so it's fascinating and people

think, oh, you know, Leo's talking

162

about the fact that everybody dies.

163

and goes to heaven, and you

can live inconsequentially

164

Tim Winders: Universalist.

165

Oh, he's a universalist.

166

Leo De Siqueira: a universal list.

167

And it's like, no, it, it's, we don't,

we don't swing the pendulum from

168

one end, one extreme to the other.

169

That's simply ignorance.

170

And that's not at all what I'm suggesting,

but what I'm suggesting is our binary

171

notion in or out, turn, or burn.

172

Does not fit the biblical framework.

173

There's something much broader at play,

and so again, we have to just very

174

simply ask ourselves if what I believe

today is central to my faith, should

175

be very clearly outlined instructions

in the Bible from the beginning.

176

Oddly you can't find it.

177

While that's quite unfair then all those

people who were living in that time.

178

Right.

179

So Adam and Eve went to hell not

even being told that it exists.

180

Hmm.

181

That's

182

Tim Winders: Didn't have a chance.

183

Leo De Siqueira: I digress.

184

Tim Winders: Yeah, we digress and,

and there's so much there that I

185

don't know, we'll, maybe we could

pick this up in episode three of,

186

I believe that we don't quite grasp

the concept of the writers of the New

187

Testament, specifically Paul and others

when they talk about life and death.

188

I think we're so binary

in that life and death.

189

You know, when they talk about the second

death and the, and the first and second.

190

Anyway, that

191

I think that might fit in a little

bit to our episode three, which is

192

where are we and where are we headed?

193

But let's, let's dive into Revelation and,

and what you did in your three book arc,

194

which I do wanna say here again, how much

they impacted my, my Wife and I's Journey.

195

There were a number of books and

we were reading hundreds, if not

196

thousands as we've been on this

journey, Totally go against what

197

I believe is accurate and true.

198

But I was reading it just to, I wanted

to get it all, you know what I mean?

199

I was really digesting a lot of stuff.

200

I still have this chart on my computer

where someone laid out the entire

201

history of revelation and laid it out

202

You know, Catholic church being the

antichrist and all that kind of stuff.

203

Not accurate, but I just sort of keep

it as a memento just to, you know,

204

maybe might blow it up and put it

on the wall or something like that.

205

But, You've put together the, the

books two and three is where you walk

206

through what we would say the, you

know, book two, I think you got up

207

to chapter 12, and then in book three

here, for some reason I don't have book

208

two here with me for whatever reason.

209

But you go through chapter 12 to 22 in,

in the final book, which we'll talk a

210

little bit about in episode three, but

be before we go into some specifics.

211

I want to say a few things that are

observations of mine, and I want

212

you to either pick 'em apart, agree,

disagree, expound on them or whatever.

213

As I read Revelation in the early

sections and I just read it again kind

214

of in one sitting morning before last

in preparation for this conversation.

215

To me, after you get through the.

216

Churches list, it sounds like a

courtroom type judgment scene early

217

on, and I bring that up to ask, is

there a general way we could look

218

at what the revealing of Christ.

219

Is as we kinda step into Revelation

and, and you could tell me that doesn't

220

make sense or a little bit or whatever,

221

Leo De Siqueira: You

222

Tim Winders: is that too much?

223

Leo De Siqueira: the incredible

weight of prophetic writings is that

224

they are immediate and timeless.

225

I mean, how often have you, even gone

to like Jeremiah or Ezekiel and found

226

comfort in some of the verses, right?

227

It's like thousands of years later.

228

How is that possible?

229

And that really is the weight of

prophetic literature, is that it is

230

both for an immediate context, and that

is consistent throughout the Bible.

231

Every prophetic book had an

immediate audience and yet timeless,

232

and I think that's certainly the

case for the book of Revelation.

233

And so it would be ignorant to

dismiss either side of that.

234

There is an immediacy the sense

of Christ is revealing himself

235

as true and faithful to his word.

236

Christ is revealing himself to be the

one that he proclaimed himself to be.

237

Christ is revealing himself as

the one to fulfill what he spoke.

238

To those where he said, this

generation will not pass away.

239

Heaven and earth may pass away,

but my words will not pass away.

240

He's revealing himself as the

one who is true and faithful.

241

He's revealing himself as the

one who's told his churches, who

242

are being persecuted, who are

persevering as the one who is coming.

243

There's the revelation then of the

fact that he is the high priest, right?

244

It what's really amazing is

John sees Jesus walking through,

245

and again, the Greek says he's

walking amongst the stands.

246

The Aramaic actually says he's

walking amongst the menorah.

247

So we have this temple

imagery of the high priest.

248

In the, we'll call it

the heavenly tabernacle.

249

The heavenly temple, high priest

is walking through as the one.

250

And then what do we immediately see?

251

The high priest is also the sacrifice,

the lamb, who was slain and as victorious.

252

He's revealing himself to beek, right?

253

And then what we start to

see is the revelation of.

254

The unfolding, the unwinding of the

end of this mosaic age and the tragic

255

consequences that are brought about.

256

And then we also see a revelation

of the age that is at hand and

257

to come, which culminates in

heaven earth becoming one, one.

258

Tim Winders: Hmm.

259

Gosh, I wanna dive into that.

260

but because that's not the way

a lot of people read Revelation,

261

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

262

Tim Winders: they read it line by line.

263

They're often looking at

headlines and things like that.

264

If you look at, we've, discussed in the

first episode, Matthew 24, Jesus words.

265

You know, if we go back to the

origin of the mosaic covenant and

266

the blessings and the curses, you

know, back in, I guess Deuteronomy,

267

I think is where those those are.

268

And then we look at what

is revealed in these.

269

Chapters of Revelation and then also

what we know about history Josephus.

270

Do do all of those kind of start.

271

Coming together.

272

Do, does that make any sense?

273

You know what I mean?

274

Because I read some of the warnings.

275

See, I came from a prosperity gospel.

276

I've shared this with

the listeners before.

277

And so all I did in Deuteronomy was

just, grabbed those blessings and I,

278

shouted them, quoted 'em, wrote 'em on.

279

I never looked at those curses.

280

But when you look at those curses

and then you look at what Josephus

281

talks about actually occurred.

282

And then you look at some of the things

that we can look at in verse by verse.

283

In Revelation, you weave

Jesus words into it.

284

To me, it just like explodes in my mind.

285

All this is related.

286

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah, it is.

287

the incredible thing is that God

actually shows Moses what would happen.

288

ultimately the people

would go astray, right?

289

and then the blessings and

the curses, like you said.

290

if you read those curses, it's

verbatim, you see those curses echoed

291

in Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24.

292

You see those curses echoed

throughout the book of Revelation.

293

then you see curses actually

manifesting in real life as Josephus

294

is chronicling what he's seeing.

295

it's incredibly sobering, but

it's all pointing to that event.

296

you go back to Paul, right?

297

You go back to the apostles understanding

that they were living in a time

298

where they're gonna start to see the

curses of Deuteronomy come to pass.

299

That's the sense of urgency.

300

That's the heartbreak that

they're feeling for their people.

301

Tim Winders: Hmm.

302

What can you say, I know you wrote a

book on this and this was one of your

303

books I have not been able to read,

but what can you tell us about the

304

seven churches in the beginning of

Revelation that we might need to know?

305

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

306

Whew.

307

You know, seven churches

are both timeless.

308

there's incredible, mystery of how

these seven churches and the themes

309

are woven and the sequence of churches,

you know, and what is discussed.

310

I mean, again, there's

timeless aspects to it.

311

There's prophetic aspects

to it that touch all of us.

312

at the same time, those

were real locations.

313

I mean, you can visit them

today if you book a tour, right?

314

A Holy Land tour.

315

And, those places remnants.

316

And you have to think of a time

where there's no local church, right?

317

You're not turning on the radio

and listening to a preacher.

318

You're not going to, you know, going to

the local bookstore and, and you have like

319

35 versions of the viable to pick from.

320

you, you had an encounter.

321

That you cannot deny, and there's a

small group of people who've had the same

322

encounter and you congregate together.

323

That was Christianity at that time.

324

Nobody was walking in there with a Bible

under their arm for Sunday morning church.

325

I mean, was, there was something

that was undeniable that they went

326

literally from the Kingdom of darkness.

327

In, in this pagan society

or if you were a Jew, right?

328

You have your, your mosaic context,

but you had an encounter, you had an

329

experience, you have the Holy Spirit,

and you're hanging, you're hanging

330

onto this, you know that this is

true and this is what you have, and

331

you are, you are facing heavy, heavy

opposition from your countrymen.

332

Again, early church was

predominantly Jewish, right?

333

So your countrymen are

adamantly per persecuting.

334

you Like you are in error.

335

are exactly the type of person

that Moses says we need a stone.

336

Like there's heavy opposition.

337

This is why Paul got stoned so many times.

338

Like they're just following

scripture and, you're like, Jesus,

339

like we know that you are true.

340

How long is this gonna last?

341

And so Jesus comes to these

pinnacle churches that were under

342

John's pastorate to bring both.

343

Correction and comfort, and

we think that, you know,

344

there's a level of intensity.

345

You're like, wow, Jesus.

346

You don't really feel like a, you

know, that tender shepherd right now

347

when you're talking to these churches,

and I would suggest is, you know,

348

when the stakes are high, right?

349

let's say you take your kids

hiking and you're, you've, you've

350

hit the ridge of the mount.

351

I'm, I'm, I'm near the Rocky Mountains.

352

If you're near the Appalachians, maybe

you have an understanding as well.

353

But when you hit that ridge, there's

parts along that ridge where it's,

354

it's like life or death on either side.

355

And so if your kids are following

you and, and your their lives are on

356

the line, you're gonna turn around

and be like, don't go that way.

357

We're not kidding around right now.

358

And it's like, wow, dad, you're

being really harsh and intense.

359

It's like, yeah, I, I, I

can see falling right now.

360

Like, not the time for tenderness.

361

Like this is real.

362

This is happening.

363

This is the narrow path right now.

364

And that's the intensity that Jesus has.

365

Why?

366

Because those people.

367

We're gonna witness their

whole world turned upside down.

368

So the, the people that were

persecuting them were gonna fall by

369

the sword or be sold in a slave trade.

370

Right?

371

Very, very heavy stuff.

372

even in the Roman Empire, the Roman

Empire went through incredible

373

turmoil and ne nerom commit suicide.

374

There's three different coups of

different people trying to vie for

375

power nations that were under the Roman.

376

started to rebel, right?

377

There was, there was

squames and stuff like that.

378

it just became

379

And literally it was the

year of chaos that happened.

380

It was called the year

of the four emperors.

381

And so you're living in those times and

you're like, it's the end of the world.

382

What's, what's gonna, and so Jesus

is like, this is the path forward.

383

And so he

384

Tim Winders: Mm.

385

Leo De Siqueira: Because of the intensity,

what's gonna be going on around you?

386

Tim Winders: We also know there was quite

a bit of turmoil within Jerusalem and

387

within the leadership of Israel, correct?

388

I mean, weren't there coups and

all type stuff going on there?

389

So there was a shaking,

I'll use that word.

390

Leo De Siqueira: yeah.

391

Huge.

392

Tim Winders: of the end of days

that we look back and go, oh

393

no, it wasn't the end of days.

394

No.

395

If we were there, we would have felt it.

396

So, do you believe that the churches

were literal or symbolic or Both.

397

Leo De Siqueira: Both

398

Tim Winders: Okay.

399

Good.

400

Leo De Siqueira: percent both.

401

Tim Winders: Okay.

402

Leo De Siqueira: there were real,

real congregations for sure.

403

Right.

404

We have early church

evidence for that as well.

405

and we have early church

fathers that succeeded John and

406

the pastor of those churches.

407

Right.

408

So we have a lot of early

church evidence for that.

409

But there were also, they're symbolic.

410

Tim Winders: Yeah.

411

Leo De Siqueira: I find comfort in reading

through what Jesus says to those churches.

412

Even today.

413

Tim Winders: Right.

414

Leo De Siqueira: many who would

be listening right now do as well.

415

Tim Winders: Yeah, in the last episode

we talked about the dating of Revelation,

416

and I'll let people go back and listen

to that, but one of the things that

417

you see in Revelation is some very

clear, I don't wanna say timing and,

418

and I know we have to be careful about

literal versus symbolic, but in both

419

the beginning and the end, there is a.

420

This is soon.

421

This is going to happen soon.

422

maybe you have some insight into

the Aramaic if it's different, but

423

was there the thought that this

424

now, or was it going to be soon?

425

What?

426

Tell me what soon means.

427

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah, I mean there's

seven time posts mentioned, and

428

all relating to the urgency, right?

429

So this is about to take place,

this is about to take place.

430

This is about to take place, you know,

so whether you wanna translate it as

431

soon or quickly or swiftly, none of those

words mean long distant delay, right?

432

So it's really nuances, but.

433

can't escape the fact that there

is an immediacy and an urgency.

434

And, you know, the envelope of

revelation is that it begins and

435

ends with pastoral exhortation.

436

So there's the pastoral, like

it's, now it's happening, and then

437

in the middle is like, here's the

prophetic significance of why.

438

And that's the middle of Revelation.

439

That's the core.

440

So on both sides, there's the

immediate boots in the ground

441

like, I see you, I'm with you.

442

I know you.

443

Right?

444

Jesus talking to his church at that time.

445

then at the core of Revelation is

this is the prophetic explanation

446

of what you are about to see.

447

Tim Winders: Hmm.

448

It's interesting to me how people

will say that Jesus, in what he said

449

in Matthew 24, was symbolic, but in

the same breath, they will say that

450

revelation verse by verse is literal.

451

What would you say to someone that

is going to attempt to take verse

452

by verse by verse in Revelation and

literally attempt to interpret that?

453

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

454

You know there there's two things.

455

Two critical flaws.

456

So first of all, we've inherited, know,

ever since the scientific revolution,

457

people decided to take a

scientific approach to the Bible.

458

So the Bible, if you look at

church history, always embraced as

459

a corpus, a corpus of scripture.

460

Jesus embraced the Old Testament

as a corpus of scripture

461

because on the Emmaus Road walk.

462

It, it says like, from

Moses of the prophets.

463

He showed how he was revealed in that.

464

And then all of a sudden we got into this

mindset of dissecting verse by verse.

465

So we've already missed

it in, in our approach.

466

Scientific revolution destroyed, biblical

scholarship, and that's the first flaw.

467

So we have to understand how our

fathers those who went before us

468

actually approached scripture.

469

Going all the way back to

Jesus, Jewish sages as well,

470

have that outlook on the Bible.

471

And the second thing

is, we don't understand

472

the law of Moses.

473

We don't understand the law

and the prophets nearly enough,

474

and we don't understand first

century history nearly enough.

475

You can't talk about the book of

Revelation without having at least a

476

decent grasp of the law and the prophets.

477

A lot of my footnoting to try to

fast track the reader's baseline

478

understanding in order to comprehend.

479

In other words, I'm a first

century Jew from John instructions.

480

What would I have known

as a first century Jew?

481

That's the gap that we must fill

if we're to approach that book.

482

Tim Winders: Hmm.

483

Okay.

484

So

485

Leo De Siqueira: it around you.

486

You take

487

Tim Winders: yeah.

488

Leo De Siqueira: century Jew

and show 'em an Instagram feed,

489

they're, they're gonna be,

what the heck is going on here?

490

So what context would they need to

understand what we take for granted?

491

You're flipping through your feed.

492

There's technology references,

there's government references, right?

493

There's political stuff going on.

494

There's new cultural norms, like where

do you even begin to contextualize

495

somebody so that they can understand

what you take for granted?

496

It's very simple, so you just

flip it around and you're

497

like, oh yeah, you know what?

498

I have to recreate an entire world.

499

In my mind to then understand

how that person might have

500

received this information.

501

Tim Winders: And, I think

it's so dang arrogant.

502

this was my experience in Bible school.

503

Gosh, I love them.

504

I really do love Christians.

505

I'm critical of them at times,

so I wanna qualify that.

506

I really do love Christians, but hanging

out with them in the environment I was

507

in, I really was getting frustrated

with the plucking of a scripture.

508

To attempt to apply it to something

politically or in our world today.

509

I do believe we can learn

from it and glean from it.

510

We have to, but without any

context of the overall biblical

511

narrative or the biblical story.

512

And that's one of the things I

think that's been driving me.

513

I believe we're going to get into that

a little bit in our final episode,

514

but what I'd love to do now, Leo,

I think this is a hangup for a lot

515

of people, and that is some things

that they have had drilled into them.

516

Brainwashed would be another

good word that are biblical, that

517

are in Revelation that exist.

518

I know that you're a deeper thinker and I

know that from your writing and from our

519

talking, you like to expound on things.

520

But I think to wrap up this episode,

I would almost like to do some rapid

521

fire questions about some hot topics.

522

That nag at people every time we

bring this topic up, because they've

523

been taught it over and over again.

524

You know how Lindsey Little Lake, great

Planet Earth, one of the most widely

525

sold books, they've seen it in that they

thought that Henry Kissinger was the

526

Antichrist or Bill Clinton or whatever.

527

They read all the left

behind books like I did.

528

Sorry about that.

529

But, but let, let's hit some topics.

530

I know you go, you go through

Revelation in your books, and so for

531

people that want something that goes

through, that's what the books are for.

532

But let's hit some things real quick.

533

Where in the Bible or Revelation will

we find the description of the rapture?

534

Leo De Siqueira: You won't there.

535

Tim Winders: What?

536

Okay.

537

How about other parts of the Bible?

538

Maybe not Revelation, maybe Thessalonians,

there's a scripture somewhere in Thesal.

539

I'm being sarcastic for those

that can't pick up on it.

540

Where?

541

Come on now.

542

I've built my whole

543

world around that.

544

I'm gonna escape from all of this stuff.

545

Leo De Siqueira: yeah, yeah.

546

First Thessalonians talk

about being caught up.

547

Right.

548

And, and the coming, coming of

our Lord and isolating that verse

549

and just, you know, stopping

there is, is what took place.

550

Right.

551

And again, in ignorance because it,

again, it's the corpus of scripture,

552

not the isolation of verses.

553

I mean, one verse doctrines are

a cancer to the body of Christ.

554

and they're so prevalent.

555

What, that, what Paul is talking about.

556

And again, go read 1st Corinthians

15, which Paul also wrote, which I

557

will call perfect ex eschatology.

558

By the way, If you want a Cole's Notes

version of the book of Revelation or,

559

or End Times or anything like that.

560

Just read first Corinthians 15.

561

That one chapter sums it all up.

562

It's fascinating.

563

So what Paul talks is talking about

is being caught up in the air.

564

To not then continue to float away.

565

Now we're now we're adding stuff in.

566

He's talking about, he says to receive our

Lord, we're actually ushering in the king.

567

So this, the symbol of being

caught up is so as to receive.

568

In the same way that in, in ancient times

across almost every culture, if your

569

king returned from battle victorious,

by the way, or if your king returned

570

from a long journey, the people of

that kingdom would come out of their

571

gates in adoration, in admiration, and

celebration to receive back their king.

572

That is the image that we have.

573

Look at Revelation 21.

574

The new Jerusalem comes down from

heaven to the renewed earth as a

575

bride adorned for her bridegroom.

576

the bridegroom?

577

Jesus.

578

So where is the consummation

of matrimony taking place?

579

It's right there in the book.

580

on the ground that you're standing on, but

renewed, made new like in Genesis two, and

581

three before the fall, Eden restored here.

582

and Earth won.

583

So first the Thessalonians in isolation.

584

You can deduct whatever you want,

that's ignorance because you're

585

missing the corpus of scripture, right?

586

One Corinthians 15 talks about the great

resurrection and receiving earth suits,

587

Paul's like, Hey, you know how Jesus

received this new body when he was raised?

588

He could like eat fish and walk

through walls and disappear from plain

589

sight, but they could also touch him.

590

And the holes were there.

591

That body, we're getting that body

the great resurrection takes place.

592

Why?

593

Because we're gonna be in a realm

where heaven and earth are one.

594

Powerful, powerful, Stu.

595

It's in the book.

596

You just gotta read it.

597

Tim Winders: Yeah, we'll

look at that more too.

598

'cause that's that.

599

Leo De Siqueira: That's to

600

Tim Winders: That's that.

601

What's coming and what's next?

602

We'll look at here.

603

All right.

604

Couple other things.

605

the beast.

606

6, 6, 6,

607

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

608

Tim Winders: the beast where,

what's up with the beast?

609

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

610

so there's two wild animals.

611

That's what the, that's what the word is.

612

Two, two wild animals.

613

one's a leopard, one's a ram.

614

they're not Godzilla,

615

unfortunately.

616

It's, it's, you just gotta read the woods.

617

You know?

618

It's, it's just

619

Tim Winders: That'd be kind Cool though.

620

Leo De Siqueira: funky

621

Tim Winders: I visual.

622

I.

623

Leo De Siqueira: A funky looking leopard

and a, funky looking bighorn sheep.

624

it's what they represent that matters,

the leopard representing Rome and I talk

625

about it at length in, book number three.

626

'cause that's chapter 13 of Revelation.

627

6, 6, 6.

628

the first beast is Rome.

629

Second beast is Apostate Israel.

630

very key to understand

beasts in Revelation 13.

631

Rome, apostate, Israel.

632

6, 6, 6.

633

emphatically, neuro, using Hebrew letters.

634

As numerical values,

which is very commonplace.

635

And to even take that a step further,

um, some, if you've ever done a really

636

deep dive in 6, 6, 6, you've come

across the 6 1 6 variant as well.

637

there's some very early Coptic

writings and these were like Egyptian

638

Christians, they wrote 6 1 6.

639

Why?

640

Because in Coptic language, neuro, values

in their translation worked out to 6 1 6.

641

there's no way of escaping the

fact that this was pointing

642

to a very specific person.

643

Tim Winders: Hmm.

644

Okay.

645

Gosh, let me think real quick here.

646

The two witnesses that people

talk about and try to project into

647

future, what can you tell us just

briefly about the two witnesses?

648

Leo De Siqueira: Moses and

Elijah Law on the Prophets law.

649

On the prophets testify there.

650

it's what was written there

that is coming to pass the

651

Tim Winders: Right.

652

Leo De Siqueira: of

653

breach of covenant.

654

Tim Winders: Okay.

655

Um, to sarcasm alert here, let me just

go ahead and preface where in Revelation

656

does it talk about the rebuilding of

the temple, finding the red heifers,

657

getting everything together so that the

temple can be rebuilt, so that we could

658

prepare for the next coming and all,

and the nation of Israel being restored.

659

Leo De Siqueira: no more, and in, in,

660

Tim Winders: On Leo.

661

Leo De Siqueira: in fact, you know,

I, I'll, I'll be perhaps even crass

662

enough to say that, you know, you're,

you're getting, you're, you're

663

almost tinkering with like, you know,

664

a opposing the gospel at this point.

665

I don't know how you can

read the book of Hebrews.

666

And then think that there's gonna

be a rebuilding of a temple.

667

Like it, it's the, the ignorance required

to be seduced into that worldview, right?

668

Is like you're dismissing

669

sections of the New Testament to support

a doctrine that is inconsequential.

670

To God's story and what he means

to accomplish with humanity.

671

Inconsequential.

672

It is astounding how many people

have bought into that in ignorance.

673

they might be well-meaning

they are tragically deceived.

674

Tim Winders: Yeah, it's very discouraging.

675

For me to hear that there are

Christian groups and churches,

676

well-known ministers that are raising

money right now to contribute to a

677

temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem.

678

I'm just going, what are

they teaching, preaching?

679

it does make for keeping

people coming back every week.

680

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

681

Tim Winders: you know, some of the

messages that we're speaking about here,

682

I don't wanna say it's one and done.

683

We could keep talking about it, but

it doesn't create something exciting.

684

Every time there's an event that

occurs in the world, it's established.

685

one last thing on this episode I have

in my mind, I don't know if I've been

686

oversimplifying it, but this will kind

of prep us for our final episode that I

687

believe we have time to get in, before

we're finished our time together today,

688

I have been looking at the first 19

chapters of Revelation as being roughly.

689

Already occurred or occurred in

and around that 80, 70 time period.

690

I think a lot of people are too.

691

Leo De Siqueira: Mm-hmm.

692

Tim Winders: Is that somewhat accurate?

693

And we're gonna look at 2021 and 22 in

this next episode, but talk to me about

694

that as we finish up this episode two.

695

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah.

696

the first few verses of Revelation 20,

were fulfilled in that seven 80 D event.

697

Yeah,

698

Tim Winders: Yeah, and it really helps

to look at that and we didn't talk

699

about the storytelling and the code.

700

I think that maybe John May have written

it in, but I think just knowing that

701

those first 19 chapters occurred.

702

Leo De Siqueira: Yeah,

703

Tim Winders: Around 80, 70 really kind

of helps people with their understanding.

704

Would you agree with that?

705

Leo De Siqueira: A hundred percent.

706

I mean, put yourself in the shoes

of a, of one of the handful of

707

Gentiles that would've converted

right in the first century.

708

And you're reading Book of Revelation.

709

I mean, you've not studied the law, right?

710

you don't, you're not familiar

with the culture revelation's

711

just gibberish before you, right.

712

Tim Winders: Yeah.

713

Leo De Siqueira: Revelation

is simply every verse almost.

714

from Revelation five onward is

just hyperlinking some sort of

715

prophecy, some sort of event,

some sort of Old Testament theme.

716

if you had a mouse, you'd be

scrolling over the verses and it

717

would just be giving you scripture

verses scripture verse like, it's,

718

there's hundreds, hundreds.

719

Of Old Testament references as you

read through, chapters five to 19.

720

So how could you have expected somebody

was not a Jew outside of the law to be

721

able to understand what was happening?

722

Meanwhile, somebody who was brought

up in that culture and environment

723

would've immediately picked up on

the illusions in the illustrations.

724

Like the Song of Moses makes no sense to.

725

Somebody in Rome, right?

726

A first century Roman in Rome.

727

What does he care about?

728

The Song of Moses.

729

But as a Jew, I know that the song of

Moses was a prophecy that God gave to

730

Moses, saying, when the time comes in

the future, when this people group goes

731

astray and the curses of the law come to

pass, you will sing this song, or they

732

will sing this song, and then God gives

Moses this song basically saying like,

733

this is why this is happening to us.

734

That's right in book of Revelation.

735

So that's only gonna make sense for

somebody who grew up in that environment.

736

'cause they're gonna be like, and

then the song of Moses was sung.

737

It's like, oh my goodness, the

calamities of Deuteronomy are happening.

738

Right?

739

It, it's like immediately you

understand if you knew the context.

740

Tim Winders: That's good.

741

Well, we busted up a few

things here by, throwing.

742

In that rapture out and no red heifers.

743

I hate to disappoint people.

744

We'll see if that's gonna

still have people listening in.

745

But here's what we're gonna do.

746

We're gonna stop now and next

time what Leo and I are gonna do.

747

'cause I, gosh, we had a conversation

a while back and I love where

748

he goes, especially with his

third book, Dawn of Eternity.

749

I'll go ahead and share with you at

the early part of this next episode

750

how it nest with me a little bit.

751

But we'll look at things like the

millennium, the Dragon, Satan's short

752

time, and possibly what the future

holds based on scripture, not based on.

753

Fake timelines and different things

like that, maybe the most important

754

conversation about how we live today.

755

Leo, I appreciate you.

756

This has been awesome.

757

thanks for joining us here at Seek Go

Create for this episode two and make

758

sure you come back for episode three,

which is kind of a, where are we now?

759

The final vision in that

short time of Satan.

760

Until next time, thanks for

joining us on Seek Go Create.