Artwork for podcast Qiological Podcast
032.8 Listening to The Voices of Our Community
Episode 3221st May 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
00:00:00 00:39:08

Shownotes

We learn not just from our teachers and our patients, but also from our colleagues. One of the real benefits of attending a conference is the opportunities for learning that can't help but arise from the conversations we find ourselves part of.

Here's a few of the many voices that I've learned from this weekend.

Transcripts

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So I'm here with some different guests from the sports acupuncture Alliance.

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Uh, the thing started yesterday.

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We had some amazing classes and, you know, not just amazing classes,

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but you know, an acupuncturist get together and they talk with each other.

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We learn so much.

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And I, you know, this is, I think maybe one of the benefits of a live

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face-to-face thing rather than the online stuff, as good as that can be.

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So I'm sitting here with Laura, who is from the bay area and,

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uh, Laura, I'm curious to know what popped up for you yesterday.

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What sort of things jelled or, uh, really came to your attention

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with the material from yesterday?

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Yesterday was very exciting for me.

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And I've been looking forward to that.

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Weekend a lot of S because the teachers yesterday, uh, Amy mall and Anthony Vander

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mule were teaching topics that I feel like I'm going to be able to plug into, uh,

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using for helping motor vehicle accident, patients, you know, patients who.

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I have been in accidents and their doctors say, okay, now you're fine.

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You shouldn't have any pain anymore.

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Your imaging is all clear and yet they are in pain and they're not

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just in a little pain, but they're in so much pain that they can't work.

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Right.

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And we see this all the time, all the time.

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Yeah.

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They get a diagnosis and they get imaging and they go, you're fine.

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Exactly.

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But what, what Amy offers is.

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Amy mall specializes and post-concussion treatment, and also

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any type of traumatic brain injury, chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

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And so she really showed us all the different manifestations of head injury.

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Don't seem like obvious symptoms of, you know, post-concussion

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syndrome and how, how to help the patients in those situations.

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And, and Anthony was showing us a technique, um, that he's calling Prolo

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acupuncture after prolotherapy, where you can help stabilize joints that have

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gotten hypotonic and just too loose.

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And you actually Titans.

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Ligaments doesn't it?

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It does.

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Yeah.

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You can needle right into the ligaments.

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You can, you know, you, you can test the joint before, do the treatment.

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You don't even retain the needles.

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I mean, there, there is a long-term effect, but there's an

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instantaneous effect in many cases.

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And then afterwards tested again and you can see right away improvement

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in the stability of the joint.

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So that's very exciting for a lot of these cases that

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you're, you're not going to see.

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Imaging on imaging, the laxity and patients are getting tightness

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around the muscles are activated trigger points because those muscles

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try to tighten up to stabilize.

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And so people are stretching and stretching and trying to.

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Loosen up the tight muscles when really what they need to do is stabilize.

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Yeah.

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So it's so great to have an option.

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Well, this is such an interesting thing sometimes where we'll have

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a symptom, we'll have a, I'm using air quotes here, a problem, and we

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go, I'm going to fix the problem.

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Oh, you muscles are tight.

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Let's loosen up the muscles.

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Well, if the muscles are tight, because underlying there's a deficiency in this

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case, loose ligaments, you're taking away a comp functional competency.

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That is going to leave them open to other kinds of issues.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, I just feel like that.

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Well, it's just interesting that, you know, I've been made aware of these

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issues, but, and I've, you know, had some limited success helping

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patients, but I feel like I can do a lot more targeted treatments for

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them now and have a way to correct.

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Gage their improvement with, with these two, after having had these two

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Amy's class, I only got to sit down on part of it, cause I've been mostly

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running around here doing podcast stuff.

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But the thing to me that seemed fascinating about her work is that

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there's all these like weirdo symptoms that people will they'll write off or

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they'll just go, oh, it's ancillary or people just forget about it.

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Or they just stopped complaining about it because no one's doing anything for me.

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And yet it seems brought together as a whole and looked at through that lens

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of here's an issue with the neurology.

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It really brings some things to life.

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Right, right.

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It's something.

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You know, we're familiar a little bit in Chinese medicine with having of this

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constellation of symptoms that seem unrelated to other healthcare providers.

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So, you know, I think that that doesn't scare us off so much.

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We're looking for the bigger patterns, but, um, and this is a whole new set

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of different unrelated patterns that we as acupuncturist might not have

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been so familiar with to put together.

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You know, one thing that she also talked about is.

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Vagus nerve stimulation and vegal tone.

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And that is, uh, another topic that it just comes up over and over and over for

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autonomic dysfunction and other teachers, you know, I've just went to another

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course with Tom Corbin on a regular therapy, and he's very excited about Vegas

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nerve regulation and, and, um, therapy.

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And it really feels that that's the future of holistic medicine.

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So the Vegas nerve goes all over the place.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, I'm not the person really to, to comment on biggest nursery.

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Cause I'm, it's just learning, this is the tip of the iceberg clued into it.

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Um, so, but that is.

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What I am getting excited about, is that okay.

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My next area.

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Okay.

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I really need to start learning more about that.

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You know, not only can it help people who have so many problems that, you

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know, they're, they're bouncing around to different doctors and no one can help

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them in, and they're really, uh, having some serious disabilities because of it.

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And, um, and here's something so simple and yet so helpful.

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So I, you know, that's kind of pointing me in the direction.

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Where I need to research next.

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What sorts of courses they need to take next?

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Where medicine is going.

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It's great.

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Having a direction where you go.

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Hmm.

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I think there's something here.

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I can mind this out.

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There's there.

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There's something in here that might be helpful.

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Laura, thank you so much for taking a few minutes.

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And, uh, anything else that you want to say to our listeners before

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we head back to the conference?

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I would say.

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Go to some symposia and connect with other acupuncturist there and share ideas.

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That's where some real exciting things happen in the future.

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It's making those connections.

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So I'm here with another one of the participants.

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His name is George.

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And, uh, George, what have you found to be helpful or interesting or something

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that you feel like you're going to be able to take and use with your patients?

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Well, I found Amy Mole's, um, presentation yesterday to be, um, quite motivating.

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Um, she gave a perspective on TBI.

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In the sense that we can treat it, but in a lot of practices, we're

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not evaluating thoroughly enough to differentiate, distinguish.

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And sometimes we get stuck in the same pattern of treatment.

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And maybe we're missing a few things because we haven't reviewed

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our newer valuations in awhile.

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Um, she gave tidbits about how visual cues, um, visual, visual evaluations

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will also benefit and it can break it down into what part of the brain,

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which is very interesting to me.

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What part of the brain is involved?

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What was.

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What may have happened in previous traumas when you're looking at

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evaluating down to different parts of the brain, does that affect how

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you go about doing the treatment?

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It might the focus of the presentation wasn't telling us,

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this is how you have to treat that wasn't a cookie cutter approach.

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It was meant to step back a little bit and reevaluate how we've been

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treating and how we've been diagnosing.

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So yeah, if, for example, you have.

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Uh, trauma and in the part of the brain that was near some acupuncture

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points, perhaps that can have a direct correlation, like in scalp

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acupuncture or in the humunculus where view palpated or put needles

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in that area to affect that area.

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And that could be related to gait, visual problems, anxiety, digestive conditions.

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So it potentially could change the.

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So it sounds like in many ways it's helping to improve your diagnostics.

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So you can start thinking about where do I want to focus my attention?

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Is that, is that the case?

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Definitely.

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That's my takeaway.

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Um, I'm thinking about reviewing a lot of the diagnostic methods that I've

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used, um, and things that I had learned in the past that I no longer use.

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And he used her notes as an outline to have reexamined that

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and maybe start applying that more.

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Great.

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Well, thank you.

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I, it looks like things are about to restart, so let's head on back.

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Hanging out here for the moment with Michelle

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she's one of the organizers of this amazing event.

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It's Sunday morning, we're getting ready for the last day.

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And.

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Well, you've already been listening to a lot of what's been going on here.

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You listeners, if you've been keeping up with it, but I just wanted to check

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in with Michelle, see what she was thinking about, how things are going here.

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I think things are going very smoothly.

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We've had a lot of positive feedback so far from all of our attendees,

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from our speakers, from our vendors.

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So I couldn't be happier with how things have played out this weekend.

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Um, what kinds of things where.

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People are just excited to meet other acupuncturist who have a common thread

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of, of within sports acupuncture.

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And they are impressed with the speakers and the knowledge that they

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bring to the field and the research that they've done within the field.

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And they're excited to be a part of this opportunity with our, our

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group to further the profession.

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Well, the four of you have put together an amazing event and.

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There's something about getting people together.

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I mean, beyond all the content, right.

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Which is great.

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There's something about when people get together and they sort of rub elbows with

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each other connections, get made stories, get told people, learn from each other.

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Are there any.

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Things in particular that you've heard from the participants in terms

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of connections or things that they've been learning from each other?

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Well, absolutely.

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I mean, I think the, having the question and answer panels with

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Kai from the golden state warriors was an eye opening opportunity.

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It was, um, it was an impromptu opportunity and that.

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I think all of the attendees were extremely grateful that he was able

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to get up there and speak about how he broke into the world of professional

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sports and how, how he did it and what, what things he did within his

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own practice to make that happen.

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Um, so to be able to rub elbows, if you will, with.

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The likes of those types of acupuncturist.

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It's inspiring for a lot of our attendees here.

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And that is something they have said to me that there they are walking away from

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this conference feeling inspired, but they want to go learn more that they want to

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go, you know, reach out to sports teams and reach out to athletic trainers of

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collegiate staffs, you know, to, to break into this world of sports and dive in.

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And so it's, it's really great.

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And it makes me really happy that this conference was.

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Just touch so many people.

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Well, thanks for your efforts and making this happen and look

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forward to seeing you next year.

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My pleasure.

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Look forward to seeing you too.

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Thanks.

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Hey Vivian.

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Hey Michael, how are you doing great.

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Sunday morning.

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Yeah, so much has happened here.

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It's been fantastic.

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I'm kind of curious to know what are the big things that happen for you?

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Any kind of takeaways or insights or connections you've made while,

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while we've been here this weekend?

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Oh yeah.

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Lots of connections.

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Fabulous people here.

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Takeaways, guys.

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There were so many, Matt Callison is amazing.

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A lot of things I can use on Monday, for sure.

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For example, what are you going to use on Monday?

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Well, if I have brave enough patients, I'd like to use that pulling tendon

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technique, that that looks awesome.

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That when we like lift the arch of the foot and the arch of

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the foot, that's pretty crazy.

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You got a couple of, uh, planter patients that I could try that on.

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I couldn't help, but think of a couple of my patients with

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plantar fasciitis as well.

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Yeah.

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And summer's coming up and they don't want to be wearing their they're

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good shoes, so to speak, they want to run around in their flip-flops.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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It'll be a good summer for that, for that treatment.

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I can hardly wait.

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Hey, what about that panel last?

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With the four speakers that we're talking about, how to get your practice

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going sports, medicine, any, any big insights for you from that one?

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I love listening to all of their experiences.

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I'm not going to change my pack.

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I'm not looking to change my practice to get into sports teams.

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And I think a lot of the panel yesterday was like, how do

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you get into the sports team?

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How can you become one of the train?

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You know, one of the acupuncturists and like, I would have liked to have seen.

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Questions regarding their experiences and acupuncture rather than how

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to get into the sports team.

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You know, it, it is a big thing.

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A lot of folks are looking for that, for that big sports team thing.

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Right.

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And certain, and it's needed.

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Right.

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We need people to do that.

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And then there's the rest of us that really like to kind

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of practice that we have.

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And we don't really want it to be any different than it is.

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Tell us a little bit about what your practice looks like.

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I have a general practice I've been practicing for over 30 years.

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I treat.

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Whatever comes through the door.

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I know people hate hearing that, but I do a lot of women's health,

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a lot of orthopedic stuff, a lot of GI disturbance and I'm content years

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ago, I would have thought about maybe going into the sports team, but I

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would miss a lot of the other things.

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It's exciting to have a little bit of everything.

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And it's nice to know that you're content with the work that

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you do last night after that.

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A couple of us got to talking.

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In fact, I've already got the episode up, but all of us have been

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practicing 20 ish years or more.

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And we were talking not about getting started with a practice,

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but what keeps you going in the middle and actually what motivates

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you as you get beyond the middle.

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So you've been practicing for 30 years.

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You've had a long arc to the trajectory of your work.

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And again, a lot of people are worried about getting it

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through their first five years.

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And there's a lot of people that are speaking to that issue.

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But for those of us that have maybe been practicing for 15 or 20 or 25 years,

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any thoughts or ideas or suggestions that you would have for how to take

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your practice from the first 20 years into the second 20 years, keep

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learning, keep coming to seminars, conferences, talking to your colleagues.

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There's always something new.

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There's, there's always things that are exciting, the different ways

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of doing similar things, or there's always ahas with, um, coming to these

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conferences, you know, it's like, you're never going to know it all.

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Yeah.

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You can always learn from other teachers and from your colleagues and just

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being around these fabulous people.

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That's what keeps me.

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Tim.

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How's it gone?

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Doing great.

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Yeah.

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Having a great time at this seminar.

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It's really been a great one.

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So what kinds of things have you learned or is there anything here in

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particular that's really caught your attention or some things that are going

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to take and use with your patients?

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Oh, I mean, there's definitely a lot of these different musculoskeletal

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issues looking at the seniors right now, I think is a really hot topic,

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especially yesterday's discussion.

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With, um, Matt Collison and I mean, this whole idea with the

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sun gel and the network of the fascia working with the foster.

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Now it's like a really hot thing too.

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So I thought that was really exciting.

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Pretty cool.

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Now, as I recall, you are like recently graduated from school

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or about to, is that correct?

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Yeah, so I just graduated, uh, from ACTC, um, here in San Francisco.

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Yeah.

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Congratulations.

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So I'm a little curious, the way that you were taught sinew channels in

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school, how is what you've learned here?

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Different from what you got in school.

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We kind of breezed over a little bit about the senior channels.

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Yeah.

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And since the scent gel was discussed, but then the connection between the

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fashion network wasn't, I don't think really explored in a deep level.

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And I think that's something that's really important when it comes to, you

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know, treating musculoskeletal issues.

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Yeah, it's, it's pretty interesting stuff that way.

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I was in, uh, Anthony's class for a bit.

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And he was talking about how some of these sinew channels, even

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though we were initially told that they're, they're quite superficial.

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Some of them dive very, very deep into the body.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, it's, it seems like it's just one big web.

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An Oregon that's just surrounding the entire body, you know?

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And it's just like something that I feel like we need to explore a little bit more

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and dive into and just, well, there it is.

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The Sonjia the organ that has a function, but no form.

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Exactly.

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HANA.

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Natasha.

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Have you guys been having a good time here?

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Yeah, it's been amazing so far.

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Yeah.

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Super great experience.

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So glad we ended up coming.

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What is.

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That you've gotten from this that's like blown your mind.

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That's a loaded question.

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Everything has just been super different than what I feel like

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I have been learning in school.

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And I think just seeing everything clinically in this, throughout this whole

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weekend has been really mind-blowing to me, I feel like, what are your thoughts?

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Hang on a second.

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I want to, I want to get into this just a little bit.

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Mind blown.

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I mean, I get it.

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Sometimes you hear things and it's like, oh my God,

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everything's having to reconfigure.

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Can you give us just one or two things that like, come right to

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top of mind, you need to go, oh my God, this changes everything.

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Yeah.

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Well, what Anthony was talking about on Friday about the Prolo

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acupuncture and just being able to directly affect people's ligaments.

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That was something I had no idea occupied.

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Could really do.

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And so to be able to have that demonstrated on myself and actually

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feel an immediate result was like, wow, this is something I never

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thought of that acupuncture can do.

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And it can.

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Being able to take those experiences home with me and back to class and to

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clinic is going to be really helpful.

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I think.

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So you were one of the models?

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Yes, I was.

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What happened?

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Um, well he did something into my ankle, some of the ligaments on the lateral

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side, and I have had history of a lot of ankle sprains and a fractured ankle and

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just, you know, a lot of clunking and some pain when I run and things like that.

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And, and he got in there with a needle and.

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Sort of manipulated it all around and immediately say, I felt just different.

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I couldn't really pinpoint why it was different, but it just

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felt less collapsed in my ankle.

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And sometimes people have problems that aren't so detrimental that it's like,

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wow, I'm like on the ground, I can't walk at all, but this was something

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that was just a really small change that I'm still feeling the effects

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of the next day and the day after.

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And I feel my posture is better and my ankle just feels much more supportive

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than I really thought it was before.

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So that was really cool to experience.

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And yeah.

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And to be able to not just watch it, but have it, the actual needling and

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experience of, of getting the treatment.

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What did that feel like?

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How is that different from let's just say your common

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yard dog, everyday acupuncture.

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Yeah.

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I thought it was much different.

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It was a different sensation, you know, I'm usually trying to feel

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for like that dull achy sensation, but this was more like, Uh, fanning

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sensation really all around the joint.

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And that's not really something I've ever felt before.

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It's usually just like really deep, and this is more just like fanning

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all around and sometimes a little sharp, but nothing that was like

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too sharp that it was of concern.

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Um, so just.

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Uh, very much different sensation than a regular acupuncture treatment.

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I think that's great.

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Thanks.

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Thanks for sharing that with us and good luck with the rest of your school.

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Yeah.

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That's Jose, what about you?

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Anything in particular, come to mind that, has you going back to school tomorrow

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and thinking a little bit differently?

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Yeah, I really agree with Shannon.

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You know, we're really kind of deep in the theory right now of

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acupuncture and how to diagnose and how to use all these different points.

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And so I definitely think it surprised me being here in the sports world.

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It seems like they're using a little bit less.

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Traditional theory and diagnosis, less pulse and tongue.

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I mean also using just less needles, right?

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Like in clinic, we're having this very complex treatment all across the body

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for even just something like low back pain is what I've seen in our clinic.

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And here someone like Whitfield is just using one or two.

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Six at the most we saw today needles to make a drastic change

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and even just a few treatments.

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So I think that's really interesting too, that you can just insert one needle,

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like what Shanna had on her ankle and have such profound effects instead

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of having a full, true, full body.

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Yeah.

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Sometimes we hear that less is more, and we've certainly seen

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examples of that and right.

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I don't think I've seen anyone do a tongue or a pulse while we've

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been here and yet we've seen some amazing things happen, right?

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Yeah.

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We were really surprised.

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I think it was yesterday, Matt Callison asked, you know, he was taking

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someone's pulse and he asked, wanted somebody to come up to feel what he

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was feeling pre-treatment and post.

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And so he asked who practices post-diagnosis.

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And I'm not sure exactly how many people are here, but probably about a hundred.

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And I think maybe three or four people raise their hands.

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So we were shocked by that because, you know, it's like instilled in us that

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pulse and tongue is how we're going to be able to decide how to treat a patient.

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So it seems like that.

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You know, there are different variations on how to successfully treat a

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patient, of course, well, and consider to maybe people don't want to get

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up and show off their pulse skills.

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Right.

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That's very true.

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All right.

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Well, good luck with the rest of your school and maybe see you at this, uh,

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next sports medicine conference, huh?

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Yeah.

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Great.

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Thank you so much for having us.

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Yeah.

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Looking forward to it.

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Thank you.

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And what podcasts should your friends be listening to?

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Oh, qiological qiological for sure.

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Go check it out.

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Hey, Seth, how's it going?

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Good.

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Good.

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Oh, it's been a long day and long weekend, but everything's been going well.

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Yeah, it was really fun.

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I know we're hanging out at the bar the other night and, and, uh, great

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conversations as I recall, you either are in school or just graduated.

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Yep.

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I'm still in school.

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I graduate in August, so, so it's coming right up and tell us what you're

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thinking about doing after you get out of school and has this conference shifted

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your thinking about what you'll be.

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So my goal is after school is to first, I got pass boards,

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but so those are coming up.

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But other than that, I plan to stay in like the Minneapolis.

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And hopefully get on with someone who does a little bit of sports medicine.

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My goal is to work with like high schools though, and volunteer sidelines, just

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get my name out there, get more rapport.

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And what this has taught me is that it all comes with

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experience and it all takes time.

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That has to humble me because I'm one of those people that's just driven and want

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to get out there and get everything going.

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So what this has really taught me in talking with other professionals

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is that you're not going to go out.

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Make a ton of money help a ton of people like your first years out.

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So what I really need to do is just focus on the craft at hand and just

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get really good at what I'm doing.

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And you may get lucky and hopefully that's where it'll lead me as to

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getting lucky and being able to do the things that I want to do eventually,

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but it's going to take time and that's kind of what I learned here.

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So it does take a bit of persistence and, uh, you know, I found that sometimes.

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Good luck follows hard work and preparation.

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So you never know when you actually might end up seeing a lot of

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people or things come to you.

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I'm wondering if, is there anything here that's different than what you've

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gotten in your schooling and now you're thinking, oh man, I can go back into

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clinic and do something different now.

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Yes.

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There's many things that I've learned here that I don't get in school.

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Like muscle testing, orthopedic testing.

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We don't get any of that.

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With Anthony, he taught us joint stabilization.

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We don't do any of that at school.

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And then kinda with Whitfield and, um, Matt Callison, Matt

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Callison is more of a deep Needler.

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We don't do that.

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And that's what he kind of taught, said yesterday is we go towards shallow

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needling, not wanting to give patients pain or irritation, or just bugging

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them and Whitfield he's old school.

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So he's more towards just finding that.

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Perfect and making the perfect point.

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And so that's kind of what I've learned from Matt is, oh, I'm going to go out

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and do different things, figure out what works, but see if something else works.

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And with wit it's, something works.

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Just stick with that, for fact, that, and that's what we don't get at school

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is we don't work these motor points.

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We don't work the, um, any other points besides that.

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So the trigger points, we don't do any of that kind of.

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So that's kind of what I've learned here is being able to work with

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athletes, being able to work with just your average everyday athlete in

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just, or average everyday pains and being able to do muscle tests, see

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where they're weak and reestablish that connection neurologically.

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Right.

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Sometimes you can see the effects of what you're doing very, very

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quickly when you first test treat and then go back and test again.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Great.

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All right.

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Well, Thanks for taking a few minutes to be on qiological and good luck

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with your study is in a new career.

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No problem.

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Thank you for having me and letting me do this.

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I appreciate it.

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He CC it's good to see you again.

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That was fun.

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Hanging out at the bar the other night.

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Of course.

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It's great meeting you at this conference about getting to know

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many people that have a pet before.

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Yeah, I think it's one of the fun things about conferences.

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You meet new people, you learn new things.

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I'm curious to know about something that you've learned here at the conference.

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And especially if you've learned something, not necessarily

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from one of the speakers, but from one of the participants.

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Is there anything that you've picked up from our colleagues?

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I think that because we're all here under.

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A larger umbrella of like, okay, we want to really delve into the specialty of

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orthopedics or sports or sports medicine.

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Everyone has like their own unique story and you really

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get to see what drives them.

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What's passionate, which really kind of forced me to kind of reflect on.

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What my own background is in what and why I want to do this.

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And so I think we talked about this yesterday, where I thought I was going

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to go into medical school at one point.

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Right.

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And then I got exposed to acupuncture and.

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Other perspective.

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And then just really just looking back on my roots and that followed me to

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go to acupuncture school, revisiting my roots in competitive swimming and

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exercise science and sports medicine.

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My passion for it.

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And now I'm even more excited about it now because I reinforced what drives me,

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my passion, my values are, I remember talking with you the other night.

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There's a lot of people here that are really looking to

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break into the big sports thing.

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They want to work for like a major baseball team or football

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team or something like that.

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You seem to have some different ideas.

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As I recall, once again, just kind of going back to my roots.

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I was like, Hey, like I haven't reached out to my childhood clubs when team.

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Why not just go introduce myself to the new coach and

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kind of just see where he's at.

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And we, we met once we kind of talked about like what I can offer, like,

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you know, recovery from injuries.

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Um, maybe some, you know, sports performance and the pool for the athletes.

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And it didn't really happen.

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Like nothing really happened with there.

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Weren't a lot of swimmers being sent to me for like, A few months.

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And then all of a sudden he sends one person over because they have a common

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shoulder injury, and then we treated them.

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They got better.

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And then the referrals amongst the teammates started coming in.

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So it's all about planting that seed being persistent about

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it and following it through.

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Yeah.

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And there's so many levels.

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I mean, if sports is your thing and you love sports, you can work at

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everything from like what you're talking about, clubs, sports, or high school

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or college, you know, all the way up to the big leagues and there's room

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all along that line, it seems right.

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And you know, if you, if you find a young athlete, you know, even if they're like

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seven or eight and you can follow them through their entire career, and they're

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going to remember you that you're you a.

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Part of their team to get them to that collegiate level, to that pro level,

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to that Olympic level and beyond.

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So we can start making acupuncture as part of routine as getting nutrition.

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You want to see a nutritionist having a strength coach, having

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a physical therapist, like it's the norm then for that.

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And then they'll, they'll get to college and they'll be like, oh,

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why isn't their acupuncturist here?

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Like, where's my acupuncturist, acupuncturist.

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That's vital to me.

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And then if there's a demand for it, then if you ask, they will come.

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Right.

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All right, friends, there you go.

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You know, as great as the online courses are, and it's so convenient

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and it can be so helpful not to mention, save a lot of money.

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There's nothing like coming to an event regardless of the event, any

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event that's interesting to you rubbing shoulders with your colleagues, finding.

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What other practitioners are doing in their practices, as well as learning from

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the luminaries that come to teach us, there's really nothing quite like it.

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So I hope you found this to be useful, getting to hear a little bit about how

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the folks here at the conference have been learning both from the speakers

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and more importantly from each other.

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Okay.

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That's it.

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For this episode, I hope you found this discussion to be

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