The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Matt Roberts

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe is joined by Matt Roberts, a designer, design leader, and accessibility advocate whose lived experience has profoundly shaped his approach to inclusive design.

As a colourblind designer, Matt brings a personal and practical perspective to accessibility, challenging the idea that inclusion is a constraint on creativity. Throughout his career, spanning hands-on design roles and senior leadership positions, he has consistently embedded accessibility into design thinking, team culture, and decision-making.

We discuss:

1. A personal journey into accessibility: Matt’s path into design, how discovering accessibility changed his perspective, and how lived experience has influenced his professional values.
2. Designing with colourblindness: The real-world challenges of colour-reliant design systems, what often gets overlooked, and how designing beyond colour benefits everyone.
3. Accessibility by design, not retrofit: Why accessibility works best when it’s embedded from the very start of the design process, and how early decisions shape inclusive outcomes.
4. Leadership and influence: How moving into leadership roles creates opportunities to scale accessibility across teams, and why mindset matters as much as tooling.
5. Pushback and misconceptions: Common myths around accessibility, creativity, time, and budget, and how Matt reframes these conversations with stakeholders.
6. Practical advice for designers: Small, achievable steps designers can take today to make their work more inclusive, even without specialist tools or large budgets.

Matt also reflects on why accessibility should be seen as a core design skill, not a niche specialism, and how empathy, awareness, and better design choices can lead to more inclusive digital experiences for everyone.

Follow Matt Roberts:

1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattrobertsdesign/

Follow Joe James:

1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
2. Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/A11yJoe
3. YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital

Visit PCR Digital:

1. https://www.pcrdigital.com/

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

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If you're looking to learn more about the field of

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accessibility,

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how to implement it within your role or your company,

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or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

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navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

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then you're in the right place.

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I'm honoured to be able to share these insightful chats

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with thought leaders,

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advocates and practitioners of digital accessibility

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throughout this podcast and I hope you'll find it a useful

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resource.

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As always,

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thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy the

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chat.

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Today's guest is someone whose creative eye and personal

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experience is starting to shape a unique perspective on

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accessibility and design.

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I'm joined by Matt Roberts, a designer,

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leader and accessibility advocate who's made it his mission

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to champion inclusive design not just as a best practice

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but as the foundation of great user experience.

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As someone who's colourblind or experiences colour vision

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deficiency,

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Matt brings a deeply personal understanding of what

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inclusive design really means in practice.

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We're going to explore his journey into accessibility,

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how he's integrated it into every stage of his career,

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from hands-on design to leadership, the challenges,

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pushbacks and small but powerful design changes that can

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really make a big impact.

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So welcome to the podcast, Matt.

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Thank you very much.

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Thanks for having me.

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You're very welcome.

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Awesome.

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Right.

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So we always start off with the journey or your journey

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into accessibility.

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So what first drew you into the world of, well,

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I guess design first and foremost?

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And then when did accessibility become a focus for you

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personally and professionally?

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Cool.

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So full caveat.

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I'm one of those people that found my thing early.

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I'm one of those people that, you know,

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when did you first think about design?

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I always wanted to create, like from primary school,

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that kind of, like we're talking a couple of years ago,

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should we say a couple of years ago.

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Yeah,

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I didn't know exactly what kind of design I wanted to get

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into, but art and design was my kind of thing.

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And as kind of been reflecting quite a bit recently,

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I was just trying to think about those kind of early

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interactions with accessibility and things like that.

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And it was really weird.

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And I'll have to do a bit more digging,

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but I remember somebody coming in at primary school,

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must have been year five or six for me.

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And someone came in and they were a designer,

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they created all sorts of stuff.

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And they brought in a kind of hairstyle,

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kind of A4 piece of paper that was for visually impaired

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customers, for hairdressers.

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And I thought it was really cool,

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but I didn't really know what to do with that information.

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So this is pretty cool.

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But then he also came in and talked about working on

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special effects for James Bond.

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So it was kind of who this person is, I'm trying to find.

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But that was a really interesting point of just kind of,

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oh, that's the earliest,

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like getting at the earliest bit of accessibility.

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But as a lot of the design education still is,

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and hopefully it's evolving,

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is that kind of accessibility and inclusive design really

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wasn't mentioned throughout GCSE, A-level and whatever,

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the degree, anything like that.

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It was much later on that I kind of found this term

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accessibility from a professional sense,

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but from a kind of a personal sense,

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to go backwards a little bit.

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So I was born a harder hearing.

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I've got a burst eardrums.

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I got told I was colourblind at around 10, 11, 12,

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that kind of age.

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And then I had arthritis diagnosis when I was 24,

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which made me really think, oh, well,

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interact with mobile phones and technology in a very new

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way.

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And kind of taking so much more for granted before that.

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And then kind of really struggling to type a phone number

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onto a phone or whatever it might be.

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And yeah, it kind of these two things kind of collided.

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Kind of,

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I've always cared about other people and kind of making

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people feel included in group conversation or whatever it

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might be.

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And then I had this personal kind of experience of knowing

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what it's like to feel a little bit excluded.

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I never felt like really excluded,

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but I felt these little moments of exclusion,

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even kind of being left-handed and trying to play hockey at

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school and they kind of using the hockey sticks.

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I can't play.

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I can't play because I can't hold it that way or playing

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the guitar.

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Like my dad plays the guitar.

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It's like, learning, I couldn't,

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left-handed guitars are expensive.

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So I forced myself to learn right-handed.

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And it was kind of those little moments of thinking,

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the adaptation that you can do yourself,

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and then the design and everything around you.

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So these little pockets of experiences, I suppose,

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kind of led to this kind of almost kind of Eureka moment,

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I suppose, where someone said, oh,

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do you know what you're talking about?

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It's called accessibility.

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So no, what's that?

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Just type it in.

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Honestly, like, just type it in.

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Follow the hashtags, hashtag accessibility or A bomb on Y,

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all this kind of stuff.

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And I'll leave you to it kind of thing.

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Ah, now this, that's, that's, that's my calling.

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There we go.

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There we go.

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And then talking then about being colorblind and as a

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designer, that kind of,

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kind of juxtaposition opposites kind of thing coming

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together and going, oh, this is mad.

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So yeah,

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I suppose that Eureka moment fueled with lots of mini

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experiences over the years kind of led me to get into it.

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That starting point, that was about seven, eight years ago.

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Wow.

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Oh, brilliant.

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And yeah,

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I think it is if you have the right people around you at

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times, isn't it, to help join the dots and then,

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or at least just push you in the right direction or make

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you aware of something.

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And when you said about you,

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you don't feel that you've ever been like really fully

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excluded.

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I think that I've had loads of conversations recently about

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neurodivergency.

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Currently talking to a few people myself about if I go down

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the diagnosis route,

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just to see what's happening in my brain.

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And I was talking to my mum actually at the weekend and she

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said,

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you were always sort of accepted and people gravitated

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towards you, but you kind of excluded yourself.

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So actually it was like a self-ableism or a self-sort of,

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I don't feel I belong because I identify differently or I

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think that things should be different or you don't know how

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to approach a situation.

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So I think that still really affects you.

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And then when you were talking about guitar,

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it made me think of Jimi Hendrix because he was

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left-handed,

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but he just flipped the guitar upside down and played

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upside down.

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And you just think, okay, well, that's, you know,

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another example of an inaccessible environment and having

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to have those eureka moments or that level of genius to

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sort of navigate it.

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But that's where accessibility comes in, isn't it?

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It's where it sort of says, no,

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you shouldn't have to have that struggle and, you know,

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make things work.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And yeah, you notice those,

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start to notice those little bits, particularly like I was,

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I was kind of,

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the left-handed thing really got to me as a kid.

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And then you notice even like cash points,

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who uses cash anyway.

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Cash points,

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the point to enter the card is on the right-hand side.

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So as a left-handed dominant person,

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you're kind of going across the screen.

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Same with the London Underground,

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the swipe or whatever the mechanism is,

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or the multiple ways of doing it now,

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is always on the right-hand side.

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So it feels really awkward,

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but it's another sign of just one way of thinking.

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The majority of people are right-handed.

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There's the solution right-handed.

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But yes, it's loads of little bits like that.

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But yeah.

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Who knows?

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I could have been a hockey star if only school had supplied

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me with a left-handed stick.

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Who knows?

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Who knows?

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Oh, man.

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And I think that's something that a lot of people could

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probably identify with or recognise because I remember

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being at primary school when there were left-handed

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scissors, you know, safety scissors, of course,

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but left-handed.

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And I thought, why would you?

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And you wouldn't think about it until you're in that

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scenario.

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But like you say,

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even with like the Oyster or the contactless points or an

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ATM or Cash Point,

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you think it must feel really unnatural for you.

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But it's another example of designing for the majority and

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not everyone.

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Yeah, wow.

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Okay.

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That's great.

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I think it's that significance as well.

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Maybe we'll talk about more of it throughout the

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conversation.

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I never felt significant enough to make a point.

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It's just, oh, that's just the way I adapt.

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And so many others do adapt, not just me.

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Lots of people just adapt because that's the world around

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us.

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That's just how it's been designed.

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And yeah,

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just maybe that adaptability is maybe kind of part of why I

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love problem solving.

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So how does that shift and how does that do that?

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And also know that things can change.

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So I talked briefly about my arthritis that hit me for

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quite a period of time.

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You know, I couldn't pick up a pen and couldn't first time.

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So I couldn't use the shortcuts using Photoshop because I

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needed two hands or the dexterity.

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But knowing that over time, this is maybe for another time,

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the extended cut,

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but I ended up running across the country over a two-week

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period after this arthritis diagnosis, like, ah,

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a bit of a kind of, I can do that, like, I'm still able,

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like almost stubborn kind of thing,

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as I can be at times.

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It's like, I didn't want it to define me.

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And I suppose that's an interesting thing.

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It's like, I just, I've got arthritis, but I'm 24,

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but all the material and yeah,

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marketing material is skewed towards older people.

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It's like, no,

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I don't want to be in that box and I don't want people to

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put me in that box.

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So I kind of worked with myself mentally, emotionally,

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physically.

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Just like, I don't want to do that.

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But I might regret it later on with not taking all the

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advice of the doctors.

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But it was a real moment to kind of understand that,

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you know,

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there are some diagnoses and conditions that kind of very

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permanent and they can't change.

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I'm not going to wake up suddenly right-handed,

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but I know that my arthritis will come and go.

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And I know that my eyesight will, like most people,

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will deteriorate with age.

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That is inevitable.

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So it's these little, again,

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these little experiences that kind of kind of just bring

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into my design work and my kind of influencing and advocacy

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work.

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Yeah.

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And I know, sorry, I mean,

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I could talk to you all day long.

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You know that, Matt,

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because I've chewed your ear off more than enough times in

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the past, in the recent past.

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But something that you've said there as well made me think

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of something that Craig Abbott said in a really early

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episode of the podcast.

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And it was sort of, what would you look,

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what quality would you look for someone that's working in

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accessibility?

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And one of the first things he said was resilience.

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And that just shows that's bred into you, really.

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And I think through that experience,

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through that personal sort of lived experience anyway,

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as well, and being able to identify, problem solve,

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and being resilient,

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because you're not going to let it just beat you down.

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You're not going to just go, oh, I have arthritis.

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I can't run across the country.

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I'm left-handed.

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I can't play hockey.

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I'm sure you still gave it a good go.

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And the guitar, all sorts of things, you know,

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and that shows that level of resilience that's really sort

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of required to thrive in this sort of industry.

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But I will bring that on to the second question,

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where we've spoken before about how being colorblind or

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colour vision deficient has influenced your approach at

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times to design.

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So just wondering what it's been like with like the

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challenges that you've faced,

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anything in any small sort of tips as well that you might

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have or how it's sort of shaped you into being a bit more

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of a, I don't know,

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I've written this down and I don't want to say that you

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were never thoughtful as a designer,

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but more thoughtful designer.

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More thoughtful.

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It's all adding.

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It's all adding.

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Yeah, I suppose the biggest...

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So, yeah,

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I suppose there's been a real shift over the last few

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years.

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You know, I'm nearly 40 to give it context.

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So for about 30 odd years,

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I didn't never really thought of it as something.

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It was never kind of over laboured and things like that

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throughout school or anything.

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And actually,

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I've really been learning what it is to be colourblind and

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like the seriousness of it and where it does could impact

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me, where it doesn't.

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But what I'm also finding really interesting is I suppose

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the biggest challenge, as even someone who's colourblind,

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there's so little information out there how common

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colourblindness is.

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So a lot of the things I do share,

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it's like this one in 12 men are colourblind.

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And you think when you look at that in terms of your team,

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your kind of organisation, the networks you're a part of,

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the family gatherings, whatever it might be.

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So one in 12 statistically are colourblind and it's one in

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200 women.

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So the challenge, I suppose,

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there is just shifting that mindset to how common is it and

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what is the implications of being colourblind and kind of

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working through the challenges of as soon as you anybody

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who's colourblind will relate to this it's like oh you tell

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someone that you're colourblind oh so uh what colour's that

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uh what colour's that uh what it is it's inevitable because

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it's curious it's done with a lot of heart and a bit

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obviously a bit of humour as well but it's uh it's a real

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kind of opportunity then to say look the the traffic lights

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I can can see those traffic lights for my my condition

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which is red green so deuteronomy I can never pronounce it

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but it's the red green variety so where I kind of do do

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struggle in a kind of a more practical sense is say like

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playing cricket and the cricket ball being red amongst them

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the green of the grass spotting that ball is maybe more

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difficult than people with normal vision or kind of um tis

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the season so the Christmas tree being green and kind of

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the the colours within that that are used I can't

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necessarily see the the baubles kind of pop I hate that

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word pop as much as many other people um so but it's it's

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that kind of education and things like that and there's

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obviously micro kind of I say microaggressions it's like

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the the school thing it's like oh you colour blind are you

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colour blind it's those flippant remarks and stuff like

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that um and kind of working also against a system whereby

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it's kind of um there so you see corrections in red in an

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email it's those kind of things it's just been there that's

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where it's been in industry for years and years so working

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with um various teams um accessibility champions teams and

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things like that to kind of okay so that's um inherent kind

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of go-to what's what's the alternative and and kind of um

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using annotated documents in word and google and all that

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kind of stuff that that helps provide a solution to people

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who can't see those things so that's probably uh the

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biggest challenge i think it's from my experience it's a

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fairly new conversation um and uh yeah one i'm kind of

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discovering more and more myself to kind of influence

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people as much as possible to understand it and kind of go

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okay it's less serious than i thought or it's more serious

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than i thought like let's let's work out what i can

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generally do day to day to to support you know technically

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yeah one in 12 one in 12 men or one in 200 women yeah and

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it's it's one of those conditions uh where i've heard a lot

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of remarks where someone's introduced themselves and

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they've for whatever reason the conversation's gone on to

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the fact that they do have color vision deficiency or

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they're colorblind and people go oh but you can still see

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like belittling it like it's not serious and that's a

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really horrible part of not part of the industry because I

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think there's a lot more empathy within accessibility

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itself but that unawareness ignorance I may call it and

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microaggression I think that's actually quite aggressive

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it's that's a real that's going to have a real impact as

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well and there's the conversation of people saying they

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don't feel they belong so they don't think they're disabled

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enough or well is it serious enough like you said and there

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are some real serious implications like you say if people

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are using just colour to define meaning in anything it

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could be a really serious document you could be going to

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jail not you back because you're a jail um it's yeah

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absolutely i mean it's it's and why why should anyone that

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doesn't have the experience um be able to make that remark

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as well so yeah and i think the the biggest yeah again one

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of the most kind of um universal kind of components i

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suppose to understand colourblindness is forms there's a

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form everywhere on every site there's a form to fill out um

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yeah enter your email here for another newsletter or 10 off

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or kind of to fill out um something related to your doctors

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or whatever it might be or kind of claiming anything

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through gov.uk or whatever it might be there are always

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forms there and typically green is good success pass red is

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fail error all that kind of stuff so if you kind of next

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time you're filling out a form or whatever and see oh see

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error in red or think about that page if you couldn't see

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the color could you generally find where that mistake is on

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that page so the the um the the way around there if you're

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a designer listening is um looking at absolutely use

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conventional things like expected colours you know it's no

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point in then introducing a blue or a pink or whatever use

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those assumed and colours that have been well established

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is but uh add something to it so it's a green tick next to

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it or a red cross so regardless of colour you could see a

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cross next to the field that's incorrect and it's okay

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there there we go there's you're not again relying on that

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that colour um but yeah i encourage people to have a look

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at uh filling out form if you can't see the colours and

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they're they're saying they're correct correct the field in

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red and you're you've already spent 20 minutes filling out

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the form and now you have to have to find that red yeah

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yeah very frustrating absolutely but thank you for that

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because that hopefully will come in handy to a lot of

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people that do listen to this um love a love a small tip

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and it seems i mean obviously i probably wouldn't be able

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to do that myself because i'm not as technical as you or in

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the design field but um yeah having a easy fix to something

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um i put air quotes up just for anyone that's only

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listening um is always helpful uh brilliant so on the more

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strategic side as well of what you do i know there's some

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leadership as well and um awareness building um in the

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various companies you've worked with but when it comes to

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sort of accessibility within design a lot of organizations

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do treat it still as an afterthought uh something that

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comes in at the testing phase which we know is extremely

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expensive compared with if you shift left as as many will

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understand that term um but how have you managed to sort of

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build accessibility into your specifically your design

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process from the outset and has that had much of an impact

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on your project or the teams that you're working with uh

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yeah so the main bit is i guess accessibility and kind of

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the mainstream is only is a fairly new term i think we can

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all agree it's fairly new into a lot of projects and that's

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been around for years and years and some incredibly

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technical experts out there it's a fairly new term so for a

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lot of project teams it is incredibly new and kind of it's

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it seems like an extra it's oh what is this accessibility

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thing oh no there's another bit of paperwork there's

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another thing to do um but uh where I found it really

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useful is to kind of respectfully ditch the term

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accessibility to prove a point just to kind of say kind of

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put a prototype together and uh say just for for this this

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scenario and no this is kind of very light touch but this

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kind of can work is we all know that the apple mouse is

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terrible so when when it runs out of battery you're putting

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it on its side like a dead mouse and you can't use it so

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that's the scenario we're in your mouse has just died but

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you've got to fill out this form or navigate to this area

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of the website like you now to use the keyboard to get to

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that place like super familiar we've all had that moment oh

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no my mouse is uh put that to the side now navigate to this

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section and use the keyboard but it's a it's a very

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ordinary thing to do it's nothing too technical it's just

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use what tool you now have in front of you and then the the

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penny can drop saying well i can't get get to that thing

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it's like well exactly that's that's part of accessibility

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like i'll put accessibility almost as the the end point but

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the first point is like just try and access this thing just

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do this very simple simple thing of going from this home

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page to the about us page because you want to find out

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about this organization whatever uh but don't use your

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mouse because your mouse has died it's charging there it'll

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be half hour an hour so you've got to work working this way

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um so yeah that's the that's the bit and i'll do that on a

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few few examples where it's just shifting shifting that

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moment go i can't do that thing or yeah another example

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you've had an accident you've broken your arm touch wood

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you don't break your arm on a regular basis but you you're

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only then using one one arm to to do something maybe use

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your phone use a tablet or whatever but again another

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fairly straightforward example scenario to address the

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point of go this is really difficult or this is really easy

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it's like well there yeah that's proved my point that's why

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we stripped down this huge document into such a more

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straightforward thing because you you can do that kind of

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one-handed left hand whether you're dominant or right hand

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whether you're not as dominant or the other way around you

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can still do that thing um and that that's that kind of

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builds up that kind of understanding empathy and kind of

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okay it's part of it's part of the process not this extra

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thing because I felt that I felt the frustration of not

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being able to do whatever yeah I think it's very similar to

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the situational temporary permanent Microsoft design

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guidelines or design principles where if you have that in

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your mind when you're designing for a product service

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whatever it might be it makes things much more familiar I

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think that's the problem I think there's a lot of people

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that are in design development or any kind of technical

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role creating products even content creators everyone's a

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content creator these days I mean look at me I'm actually

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just a recruiter but when it comes to stuff you're putting

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out there you mightn't have that consideration because you

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haven't in the past or whatever it might be you've never

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come across it someone's never complained yet and yeah I

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guess with regulation changes and the EAA now in for in

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force and enforceable seeing a lot more popping up about it

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every day which is good it's going to be hopefully more

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commonplace that these conversations are having and you

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have to be ready so yeah no but they're I think they're

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great tips because it is if you make it that bit more

517

familiar for anyone to go I can empathize or I can sort of

518

have that understanding of well that'd be a real pain if I

519

couldn't do that so yeah and I think to your point about

520

the PAA coming in came in on my birthday coincidence who

521

knows who knows but I had no role to play in it but I will

522

always remember that they came in um but it's it's to know

523

that particularly if you're very new to accessibility or

524

you've just kind of heard it on the cusp of a conference or

525

whatever is not to be even more afraid of accessibility

526

think it's even bigger and it's rational it's like yeah it

527

is absolutely super important that's why there's particular

528

specialist agencies out there to support you navigate

529

through the compliance aspect of it but it's also to remind

530

remind yourself that it's you have a role and

531

responsibility within accessibility and making somebody

532

feel included in a teams meeting like setting up and

533

presenting through powerpoint will allow that person to

534

control kind of the pace of the slide so he can go back and

535

kind of translate the slides and things like that it's like

536

oh cool like that that helps that's not like a other person

537

else that's an agency coming in that's a that's a me just

538

making sure that when i present through teams microsoft put

539

powerpoint bam and and there you go you know there's

540

there's that kind of simplify quite a simple task you can

541

do to ensure even just that extra person can contribute to

542

a conversation so definitely i think those small

543

incremental changes that you can make to the way you do

544

things presentations like you say or just how you sort of

545

perform your your job i think sometimes people don't

546

realize actually the gravity of that scenario or the level

547

of impact they can have and sometimes they feel well it's

548

an extra step i'm not going to impact anyone it might be

549

one person one person's enough let's just say that if

550

you're impacting one person you could either be ruining

551

someone's day or making it so why wouldn't you want to make

552

someone's day yeah yeah 100 yeah there's so many simple

553

ones out there like like that present presenting three

554

teams and um presenting through powerpoint um yeah yeah

555

it's a no-brainer it's a yeah no-brainer definitely perfect

556

um so moving into sort of leadership and that strategy side

557

we have sort of touched on it already but in that

558

transition from hands-on design into that kind of

559

leadership position for yourself um it's often i guess

560

where accessibility either really takes a hold or it can

561

get sort of lost in the ether if you're no longer the

562

hands-on person doing the thing but how have you helped

563

teams or clients or companies see accessibility as that

564

creative advantage rather than an initial constraint i

565

guess we've kind of already mentioned that but yeah i

566

suppose there's a couple of bits there one is about keeping

567

the momentum of the conversation of accessibility it can

568

kind of fizzle out if you're the onlybody only one kind of

569

firing that fueling that fire so i can only do so much as a

570

little match um but if there's a enough of you and there's

571

a champions network and and things like that it was just

572

even a small group of you kind of regularly talking about

573

accessibility that's a real opportunity to kind of make and

574

ensure that momentum and consistency is still there to kind

575

of get uh get in front of the right people and kind of get

576

them um talk to them in the right way about all these

577

different opportunities um i suppose the creative advantage

578

as a as a designer i love a problem i think every every

579

designer loves a problem to solve uh and maybe not problem

580

is not the right word the the con the constraint the

581

parameters like what have i what can i do yeah problem is

582

not the right word the constraint of it just so oh it needs

583

to be 12 oh it's always six point and because on packaging

584

it's always six points i know you're like in some scenarios

585

like the 12 points the minimum let's let's use that as

586

leverage and let's see how creative we can be with that and

587

kind of not build on a design like almost like start a new

588

kind of design thinking a new design system rather than

589

kind of butchering kind of something that was old and kind

590

of maybe less informed you know we've got this new research

591

about the size and the tactile nature of packaging or

592

whatever it might be is kind of use that and kind of um

593

yeah you use that to to really stand out and kind of make a

594

mark on a on a shelf or on a somebody's screen oh wow

595

they've really they've really thought about it and they've

596

used it and they've not kind of tried to hide it away and

597

put it somewhere else and do what kind of cover it up so

598

it's all available on the qr code like just bunged it all

599

on on there they've kind of really understood kind of um

600

yeah whether it's the uh the size of the font or the

601

colours and so they're a red green organization how do we

602

do that oh my god matt's coming in talking about

603

colorblindness we've got a rebrand no there's there's so

604

many opportunities and i love that as a like as a design

605

design challenge and a kind of opportunity okay what let's

606

understand that further let's go deeper like why does it

607

need to be that size or those colours and kind of um work

608

out what the potential issues are and again by talking to

609

people like talk to people who colorblind or neurodiverse

610

depending on the the scenario like talk talk to them

611

understand what the frustrations are same around dyslexia

612

and things like that just understand that a little bit more

613

so you're not building a solution based on your assumptions

614

like oh it's it's this it's that's have you really spoken

615

to any like have you felt their frustration have you felt

616

actually that uh where people think this is a dyslexic

617

friendly font it it doesn't really do anything more or less

618

than existing this font and this font so like be uh be

619

honest be authentic be kind of uh be open to listening and

620

kind of talking to people and not kind of sitting siloed at

621

home and kind of oh I need to think about all this like all

622

these variants like no use it use it as an opportunity to

623

kind of really solve another problem and you're not going

624

to get it right straight away no very few people do but

625

it's a it's an evolution just kind of building on it and

626

stuff so I guess it's having that I mean a lot of designers

627

will have that level of curiosity as well I think a lot of

628

people might it depends I suppose doesn't it on the role

629

that you've you've got um but I think a lot of people will

630

have that natural curiosity and ask that question and go a

631

bit further and go well who's it going to impact or how are

632

they using X Y and Z but another part I suppose like you

633

said keeping it as part of the conversation you have maybe

634

a bit more control over the design briefs and things

635

because I think if you've got it in there as like a

636

something to be considered in the brief it's like okay well

637

that's another constraint is something that has to be

638

considered rather than just well I've got personal

639

experience and I want to make it better for for me or

640

people like me but something else I was going to say there

641

was I can't remember that's really bad that's fine we'll go

642

on to the next bit but just on that point of the briefing

643

is that if it's not part of the brief then how how are you

644

approaching it are you then approaching a brief not making

645

it accessible is that the is that the mindset that that's

646

the genuine conversation that's not kind of a little bit

647

provocative is kind of but so so you're creating something

648

that's not accessible and and by accessible we mean like we

649

can't kind of always really mindful of using accessible

650

just like to cover absolutely everything but kind of let's

651

kind of think about kind of approaching an advertising

652

brief mobile app or whatever does it need to explicitly

653

kind of say make the most accessible app ever or whatever

654

it might be it's like no if it's commercial and it's public

655

facing it should adhere to actually some disability acts

656

and etc etc uh as a given it's not an extra it's a given it

657

needs to be compliant um eaa and all that kind of thing

658

coming in um so in a brief the the additional bit is that

659

we know it's targeted for a certain age has a certain

660

demographic or certain certain um kind of uh uh yeah

661

whatever it might be a certain organization that okay then

662

we need additional um insights and actually we've got a

663

really really um really great opportunity here to talk

664

directly to the audience and do user interviews and

665

prototyping and all that kind of stuff so yeah i'd i'd kind

666

of challenge that kind of brief where it hasn't got it in

667

it that um you do it instinctively anyway as as part of

668

good design a good design is kind of understanding your

669

audience and understanding the breadth of that audience as

670

well so another sorry we're gonna probably carry on for the

671

rest of the day but um another thing on and it's just

672

popped back into my head what i was gonna say and it's full

673

circle with what you were just mentioning there the i think

674

a big problem in the design space is how subjective good

675

design is it's what you think is good design others may not

676

so you putting accessibility in there others might go but

677

that's not good design that's not in my definition of done

678

or um but i think someone i really i've been racking my

679

brains to try and remember who said this to me i think it

680

may have been jamie and lion um or charlie turrell so bbc

681

days and they said rather than putting it into a brief or

682

talking about accessibility they actually rephrased it who

683

are we willing to exclude because then as soon as you

684

phrase it like that decision makers is will prick up and go

685

well no one we can't exclude anyone well that's what you're

686

doing by not considering so yeah really interesting

687

terminology really helpful exercise that i've had child

688

talk about it before and it's it's really good it's really

689

helpful and it's like i think you're particularly

690

mentioning bbc here it's like talking about um particular

691

like news round which is kind of slightly younger audience

692

and slightly older audience who we willing we're happy to

693

exclude willing to exclude at a certain age when it's kind

694

of 10 o'clock news we're kind of willing to kind of exclude

695

kind of uh the younger younger audience here we don't need

696

to kind of necessarily go into explaining every acronym and

697

kind of the history and kind of simplifying the language to

698

that age-appropriate kind of audience we're happy to

699

exclude if they watch it great why are they up at 10

700

o'clock at night but it's just kind of understanding kind

701

of who your audience is and if if by just listening a few

702

few audience types out at least you've acknowledged it

703

you've acknowledged inclusion and inclusion in the in the

704

same kind of same conversation so yeah like purposeful

705

exclusion it sounds like uh trying to make a negative a

706

positive but in that in that sense definitely like you say

707

if it's not for that person then you don't really want kids

708

sort of hearing too much graphic sort of stuff about what's

709

going on in the world um unavoidable unfortunately these

710

days but yes um yeah good point um the other so practical

711

tips for designers if you i mean you've already shared

712

quite a few throughout the chat so um has there been any is

713

there anything on your mind at the moment that you know if

714

if it's a designer that's thinking about this space

715

accessibility um inclusive design but they might not have a

716

budget or they're doing things on their own as a side of

717

desk are there any sort of small things that you would say

718

will make a an impact and sort of start them on that

719

journey yeah i guess you mentioned budget i hate the word

720

budget um i was really careful earlier to not say make it

721

pop yeah yeah i was going to say it's like uh yeah budget

722

impactful and engaging i hate them hate them all um in

723

different ways um but i i honestly being useful in a kind

724

of a flippant comment is like don't waste energy kind of

725

thinking about budget as particularly start starting up oh

726

it's a budget thing it's hard to control better um and just

727

think about some simple things that you can do and i i

728

think for for me when when i've done done occasional

729

freelance work over the well occasional but i've done lots

730

of freelance work over the years is kind of talking to

731

people that are genuinely around you and and you know

732

there's a lot of um statistics out there of how common

733

dyslexia is and different neurodiversity and um age like

734

like I'd highly recommend like there's a whole stint I

735

worked did some freelance work from the local library and

736

sitting in there whilst overhearing kind of the IT um kind

737

of tuition kind of one-to-one tuition the the amount of

738

invaluable insight I got from putting myself somewhere else

739

that wasn't typically my comfort zone like I know what

740

people like that are generally in my circle but putting

741

yourself somewhere else in kind of a library setting you

742

kind of come up with a you hear this insight that there was

743

a scenario where an older lady was having some tuition and

744

she was just simply trying to sort her online shopping out

745

like Sainsbury's Tesco's whatever it was and she says I'm

746

always at this blocker like when I go on and it's always

747

asking me for an email I haven't got an email I've got a

748

Gmail how do I get an email and it was genuinely like that

749

those little bit you're not going to hear that kind of

750

you're not going to necessarily read articles or kind of

751

sit in a book or whatever it might be and around other

752

friends but actually sitting there and hearing that as a

753

designer I'm thinking okay what do I need to do what could

754

I do but and it's just kind of that that that demographic

755

and it's not an over generalization it was just that could

756

happen at any age is just the email gmail kind of thing

757

they're so close together it's like is it is there an F

758

mail I don't know is that EFG like what what what's the

759

difference here and that kind of those experiences really

760

feed into kind of thinking about design in a kind of a new

761

way or not a new way an evolved way because you're kind of

762

thinking about different scenarios like sit at a bus stop

763

and just listen or go to a cafe and not put your your

764

headphones on for a bit like give yourself a break like

765

just listen and see where the frustrations are or see how

766

people interact at the shops and they're trying to kind of

767

read labels and kind of do that and see how people react to

768

certain adverts or getting into a football stadium or

769

whatever you kind of start to notice these little

770

experiences and then you think as a designer or somebody

771

who's involved in projects it's going how would you solve

772

it but aren't i grateful that i've witnessed that and i've

773

heard the frustration and i've heard when it works well and

774

that's another point is just to also recognize what does

775

work well and really celebrate that it's like do you know

776

what it was really i went to the cinema the other day it

777

was just really straightforward i didn't have to think

778

about getting in i i could find my seat really

779

straightforward like bam bam bam and and i could enjoy

780

enjoy that which is a very simple thing or booking a

781

doctor's appointment or whatever it might be so it's all

782

also about those and yeah just being observant i guess

783

don't kind of overcomplicate it just sit and listen just

784

observe it's it's those real world experiences i suppose

785

but i think the problem not problem i'm not adding to your

786

lists of problems but i think the problem i see with that

787

is that so much of our lives is lived in our own little

788

bubble a lot of it is online now a lot of it people are

789

walking down the road with their pods in on their phone so

790

they're not going to be but that's a great bit of advice

791

it's actually almost like the gen z quote like go touch

792

grass i think it's uh yeah pretty much it's quite nice new

793

audience for us you know hopefully but i think the um

794

absolutely having that real world experience hearing what

795

other people are going through and and giving a damn i

796

think as well and uh yeah perfect okay no that's really

797

good advice i'll um i'll keep telling people that's what

798

they need to do matt told me you need to just go outside

799

and touch grass touch grass go to the library just get away

800

from the algorithm for just half a minute and yeah that

801

maybe we'll touch on that in a minute but just get outside

802

of your own algorithm which is great to a certain extent if

803

you're really interested in whatever films and sport and

804

whatever but to allow yourself or kind of force yourself to

805

go into that alternate setting it doesn't have to be

806

extreme just go into a shop that you've always walked past

807

like like just go and see and listen to what their

808

customers are interested in and whatever it might be um

809

yeah and open up and as a designer you're you're typically

810

going to work on a quite range of industry as well so

811

having that breadth of insight is is always going to be a

812

real benefit definitely perfect um and there we go so as

813

the design world evolves tools like figma a ai assisted

814

design now coming in uh there's a lot of worry around that

815

as well i think um in terms of who's going to have a job um

816

other than the robots uh new interface technologies and

817

things but is let's try and make it i guess positive if

818

possible but what's exciting you about the future of

819

inclusive design like where could it go or where's it going

820

to have a really big impact do you think i think um yeah

821

going on the positive positive positive um it is uh a

822

couple of things um again trying to go on the positive side

823

um is um uh metabolized it's really i'm so i'm so on the

824

fence i've got so many splinters sitting on the fence with

825

this but it's so nuanced and there's so many different

826

scenarios to you it's like it's almost like when um someone

827

goes oh what do you think of the internet what do you mean

828

the internet like this it's so broad and i'm at an age

829

where i just didn't feel that kind of introduction of

830

internet as but our ai is that equivalent it's like what do

831

you think to it like it's big it's broad it's complex it's

832

nuanced it's all this kind of thing um we're going on some

833

positive examples i've seen of ai inclusion let's go there

834

is um so uh some chat with uh hector minto um um he's one

835

to one to follow on linkedin if you've not already come

836

across him um and we were talking about dementia and the

837

metaglasses so um other brands are available but it was

838

kind of uh in the scenario where a patient uh is wearing

839

these glasses and as a carer or somebody going in um to

840

check up on a an elderly relative or somebody you generally

841

care for is like have has this person been in to see you

842

today insert name it's like no no it's like and then say

843

hey meta have you um has that person come in it's like yes

844

they have or no they haven't and it's a real kind of

845

interesting opportunity to kind of be the supportive memory

846

and as trying to stay away from all the black mirror stuff

847

because this isn't we haven't got time to go my full depth

848

analysis of metaglasses and the data breaches and stuff but

849

i thought that would really interest as a conversation

850

start kind of actually the opportunity there in terms of

851

helping memory and helping that um maybe palliative care or

852

whatever it might be it's like it's really helpful insight

853

um and uh i think there's yeah other examples of where you

854

know there's within any organization there's always a

855

document to read it's typically quite complex and long and

856

actually having ai overview summaries can be really helpful

857

it won't obviously need to depend on what model you're

858

using but it's a really good overview of just saying okay

859

this is the general tone and this is kind of what this

860

thing's about and I think that's really going to help more

861

and more people be part of a part of conversation and it's

862

not then reliant on the speed in which they read and kind

863

of the language and whether it's first like native language

864

second language search or whatever it might be it's kind of

865

a really kind of opportunity to kind of bring some of that

866

maybe those simple opportunities into a space where they

867

can contribute to conversation and like the live

868

translation of the language is awesome um but yeah I mean

869

the data breach thing is is where we go into black mirror

870

and horrible scenarios but there's really beautiful and I

871

think this is where I really like it is just beautiful

872

moments of helping an individual be included in something

873

and not feel left outside and I think that's probably where

874

my take is for the positive angle.

875

I love that because there are going to be an awful lot of

876

positives on the application of AI.

877

I think that we just need to not get too carried away and

878

use it for everything.

879

A lot of people saying no code solutions or getting AI to

880

develop everything without a consideration of human

881

experience.

882

But some people have described AI as a visually impaired

883

user at times because technically it is a program that does

884

it have the human experience of sight, you know,

885

so it's interesting.

886

What I would say on that, doing overviews of documents,

887

we have to obviously recruitment,

888

procurement teams we're talking to all the time and reading

889

long documents.

890

My boss Jane is actually doing a speed reading course at

891

the moment to try and quicken up.

892

But AI has come in really handy, like you say,

893

and it to de-jargonize, I don't think that's a real word,

894

but I'm making it one.

895

Or explain a document back to you at a level that you might

896

understand it, but it's getting your prompt accurate.

897

You know, you have to sort of say,

898

only use the information in this document.

899

Do not make assumptions or give sources from the internet.

900

So it's very useful.

901

And I think it's the known that it's that balance of AI is

902

still a robot.

903

And if I think you kind of still, in your mind's eye,

904

as human as it might sound, it still kind of hasn't.

905

I had a quote from a, I'm going to butcher this now,

906

but it's a leading creative from an agency.

907

It's like,

908

AI's never had their heart broken or fallen in love or been

909

bullied or been welcomed or been excluded.

910

So in terms of understanding how kind of humanity works and

911

behavior and kind of psychology and kind of the development

912

and kind of learning from its mistakes and going somewhere.

913

I don't think it will ever reach that because it is so

914

nuanced.

915

And I just love that idea of like, hey,

916

I've never fallen in love or broken up and then kind of

917

fallen in love.

918

It's just such a nice, nice thing.

919

But from like systematic process, summarize this, blah,

920

blah, blah.

921

Yes,

922

I can see it working and automating that kind of thing.

923

But when it comes into kind of replicating human behavior

924

or an emotion, you feel that kind of slight difference.

925

And it's another example where it's the difference

926

sometimes between Coca-Cola and Pepsi.

927

Like, you know, there's a difference,

928

but sometimes you just don't know,

929

but you just don't trust it, like whichever way it goes.

930

But yeah,

931

AI will never kind of replace that humanity aspect.

932

I think I know a few people that would argue with you about

933

the difference between Pepsi and Coca-Cola or even actually

934

original versus Diet Coke because I can't taste the

935

difference.

936

I think it's all taste the same.

937

We shall extend this podcast and we shall have a good solid

938

debate about that.

939

Coca-Cola, Coke Zero, Diet Coke.

940

Yeah, there's a...

941

All the same.

942

Yeah.

943

Amazing.

944

Right, so that brings me to final thoughts, Matt.

945

So thank you so much for spending some time with me.

946

I know that you've got a lot going on yourself as well.

947

So I really appreciate it.

948

But before we wrap up,

949

is there anything you'd like to leave with listeners?

950

Is there a message of your own or a mindset that you'd like

951

more designers to have when they come or take forward when

952

it comes to accessibility?

953

The biggest thing for me,

954

and I suppose it's going right back to the first question,

955

it's like that kind of Eureka moment of kind of finding a

956

word, finding a book, finding a person.

957

And I really encourage people just to start, honestly,

958

just, I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, welcome.

959

Hello.

960

That's a good, good start.

961

You've had the words digital and accessibility in into

962

somewhere.

963

So that's good.

964

And I encourage then those people to, again,

965

like go onto all the social media networks and stuff like

966

that.

967

And or kind of all your bookstores and things like that,

968

just type in all those kind of key words, accessibility,

969

inclusion, exclusion, ableism, disability,

970

and all these kind of these words and see what comes up and

971

find your way into it.

972

Not all of it has to be kind of big and complicated and you

973

have to read everything to have an opinion and have an

974

approach.

975

There is some really simple ways of getting into it.

976

And maybe that is just simply following somebody who is an

977

accessibility person or an agency that does this stuff on a

978

daily basis and kind of posting kind of,

979

this is really good.

980

We're at this event.

981

It's like go to that event.

982

So it's a kind of just, I guess,

983

just start and be the other side of kind of being,

984

be willing to evolve and be challenged and be wrong

985

sometimes.

986

But, you know,

987

just make sure you put something out there and it's, it's,

988

yeah, just, yeah,

989

putting something out there that can really kind of make

990

sure that nobody kind of,

991

or fewer people get left excluded.

992

So much punchier if that was a much more concise sentence,

993

but you get the point.

994

We'll get AI to make it sure.

995

We'll get AI.

996

Yeah,

997

just get rid of all the uhs and ums and we'll cut this

998

podcast down to about 13 minutes.

999

No, it wouldn't be human, though, would it, Matt?

00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:05,760

Exactly.

00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,360

And that's the beauty, right?

00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,880

We are people.

00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:10,080

Absolutely.

00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:11,040

Well, I appreciate that.

00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,720

And absolutely, you know, it's such a welcoming community,

00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:16,880

as you hopefully have found as well.

00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,520

There's so much sharing, knowledge sharing.

00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:25,200

And it's just really nice to feel that you're no longer one

00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:26,400

person trying to do it all.

00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,200

There are a lot of people out there currently trying to

00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,760

make the world more inclusive in all aspects of it as well.

00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,200

So, no, but really appreciate your time as always, Matt.

00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:38,000

It's always a pleasure.

00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,760

I'm sure we could have carried on for another good couple

00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:42,320

of hours.

00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:44,400

And maybe we will once we stop recording.

00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,240

But thank you so much.

00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,960

And yeah, I'm sure we'll catch up again soon.

00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:49,920

Thank you very much.

00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:50,640

Cheers