Welcome back to ADHD-ish!

In this episode, I sit down with Paul Pape, a creative business coach who brings creativity and playfulness to entrepreneurship by turning business strategy into an adventure—literally.

Together, we explore the starving artist myth, the difference between creatives and artists, and why traditional business advice often falls flat for "cloud thinkers" with ADHD.

You'll hear behind-the-scenes stories about rescuing multi-million dollar businesses with a single round of "D&D Business Edition," how self-knowledge (and a character sheet!) can help you embrace your quirks, and find profit, purpose, and magic—on your own terms.

Whether you’re a seasoned creative entrepreneur or wondering how to turn your neurodivergence into your greatest asset, this conversation is filled with wisdom bombs, real talk, and practical strategies for making business—and life—a game worth playing.

Here are my top 3 takeaways for creative entrepreneurs and fellow neurodivergents:

• Gamify for Engagement: Turning business challenges into quests (not just tasks!) makes even the most daunting to-do list approachable and—dare I say—fun. Paul swears by quest structures with tangible rewards to help ADHD brains stay motivated and follow through.

• Identity Is Your Superpower: Creating a "character sheet" for yourself enables candid self-reflection, minus the ego panic. It’s a way to step outside traditional business coaching and unlock rapid personal growth—especially for those who hide or mask their real selves.

• Redefine Success on Your Terms: Not every creative business needs to scale. chooses bespoke, deeply connected work over group programs and mass-produced results. The real magic? Custom approaches lead to legacy-building impact for both coach and client.

Ready to gamify your business? Take Paul’s personality quiz at www.gamifybusiness.com/quiz

About today’s guest, Paul Pape:

Despite the challenges of running an all-custom operation—a model many believe is doomed to fail—Paul Pape has been thriving, creating more than 3,000 original products for an impressive roster of clients, including Disney, Universal, and Nickelodeon, as well as individuals from around the globe. His unwavering dedication and inventive spirit have sustained his business for over 20 years, proving that passion and adaptability can defy the odds.

In addition to his custom design work, Paul runs Gamify Business, where he is the barkeep in a tavern for creatives. Tapping into his neurodivergent nerdery, Paul takes boring business practices and translates them into gaming themes and terminology. Character classes instead of customer avatars, quest lines instead of project plans. Want to chat with Paul about your business quest? The barkeep is in, so pull up a stool.

Paul’s Body of Work:

Gamify Business

TEDx Talk: Santa for Nerds

Paul’s Books:

Stop Selling Your Shit

The Creative Player’s Handbook to Business

Paul Pape Designs

Your ADHD-ish™ host, Diann Wingert

Diann Wingert brings decades of experience as a psychotherapist and serial business owner and is now a sought-after coach to entrepreneurs with ADHD traits.

Her style is direct, strategic, and always honest—peppered with the insight of someone who lives and breathes the neurodivergent experience.

Diann is a fierce advocate for self-acceptance and meaningful growth at the intersection of neurodivergence and entrepreneurship.

She is the creator of the ADHD-ish Method and host of the top-rated ADHD-ish podcast. Diann is many things, but she is not a gamer. She is, however, learning to tap into her nerdy side.

Mentioned during the episode:

Dragons & Beasties‍ ‍ Breaking Bad‍ ‍Dungeons & Dragons‍ ‍World of Warcraft‍ ‍Joe Dispenza: Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself‍ ‍‍ ‍Vincent Van Gogh‍ ‍Jackson Pollock‍ ‍The Industrial Revolution‍ Target‍ ‍TJ Maxx‍ ‍Tim Burton‍ ‍Nightmare Before Christmas‍ ‍Danny Elfman‍ ‍Johnny Lam’s You Are Player 1 ‍

Loved this episode? Leave a review and tell us why!

© 2026 ADHD-ish™ Podcast. Intro music by Ishan Dincer / Melody Loops / Outro music by Vladimir / Bobi Music / All rights reserved.

G: I run Paul Paint Designs, which is my other business, and it is over 20 years long of working with companies like Disney and Universal, Nickelodeon and I and people all around the world. And what I do is I make whatever people need that they can't find anywhere else so that's kind of been my business model. It's a business model that should not work because it's all custom and they say, you know, custom businesses are doomed to fail. And, you know, I'm 3,000 products in 20 years, and I think I'm doing okay, so we're good there.

H: Try and stop me.

G: Right, right? So, but I think is I love to I guess it's hide is probably the best word. I love to sit behind a table and become a persona. I started out in acting, that's where I got all of this going, is theater. And so I find myself way more comfortable relating to people if there's something between us. And so sometimes that's the caricature of Santa for nerds or the barkeep. It gives me something to kind of take a backseat. I love the idea of the barkeep because the barkeep is about service. It's not about leading and when I work with my clients, I'm not there to take over their business. I'm not there to tell them what to do.

I'm there to give them advice and to serve their needs so that they can then go on without me. Which is also kind of a weird way to approach coaching, is like, I'm not looking, I don't want a long term contract. I'd love to come in, solve the problems and get the hell out and so service for me, so that's where the barkeep comes from but also I play the game master or the guide. And what that allows me to do is kind of present to them situations in which, you know, because life is a game, we can think otherwise, but the reality is life is just a game and it's however hard you decide to play it.

And so that's really what this business is about, it’s about seeing your business or your life as being a game. And then sometimes it's good to have somebody who can give you the rules or if you're unclear about the destination or what you're supposed to do next, to have somebody go to. So that's really who the barkeep and the game master, that's how we got here.

H: No, I never made myself very popular with other therapists when I was in that career, which was a good 20 years, because my philosophy was we should get in, do the work and return you to your real life as expediently as possible. I never wanted to create dependency and I never wanted anyone to think the reason they were doing better is because I was walking with them. I wanted to transfer my knowledge and my skills to them so they could live better without me. If they wanted to give me credit down the road, that's cool.

But I always saw it like being a good parent, being a coach, being a good therapist is to equip people so that they don't need you in an efficient way. And I also think that the most of the world's therapy is not actually called therapy. And it is facilitated by hairdressers, manicurists and barkeepers because people open up to whoever they feel comfortable with, with or without the training and the title. But you had a really interesting experience that was completely unexpected. We talked about it in a previous conversation. You were already well into your business. You were grossing a nice some of money and then Dragons and Beasties came along and kind of changed your life in the best possible way. Can we unpack that a little?

G: Yeah. So Dragons and Beasties is a company that creates basically like little cute dragons and they sell them to people and they were doing, they've been in business for about 13 years. And they were doing well, they're a million dollar plus business net, but they're no gross, their net was only $50,000. And so they came to me and they're like, we're 13 years, it was three of them who ran the business, four technically, that ran the business. And it was a husband and wife, her sister, and then this outside person, and the husband is the one who reached out to me and he said, I'm either going to die from a heart attack from watching this thing sink or I'm going to get help so I'm reaching out to you for help.

H: No pressure.

G: So I was like, okay, well what am I walking into here? And so they said, we don't know anything about business. We have this guy who's our business guy and we're not making any money, but we're making a lot of money and so they said, can you take a look at this? And just from an outside perspective, because they saw what I had been doing, they'd been listening to me for a while because I used to do an online thing called Twitch where I just sit and talk to people and I explain all this and that's how they found me. And I was like, yeah, sure, let's just break it down. And so the first thing I did was we went in and I just looked at all the books and I'm like, money because the money, you know, money's gotta have a trail. I mean, that's just how business works.

H: Unless you're breaking bad.

G: Correct, correct, then there's no trail. So that's what I did is I went in and looked at the money and what we found was the business guy was doing really really well for himself, but no one else and so the very first thing that I did was fire him. I had to, we got him out of his contract. He was not happy about it because he was a 30% owner and…

H: Oh, boy.

G: Yeah. So basically we had to threaten litigation and the thing is, is they didn't want to burn the bridge. But I'm not a lawyer, you know, I'll just play one on tv, I guess. And so I sat down with them as this guy who's just going through the books, and I'm like, we're missing substantial amounts of money and I know these guys don't have it, so that only just leaves you. And so we asked, you know, so anyways, that was a mess.

But once that guy was gone, unfortunately, he wanted, he's like, yeah, you can pay me off. He said pay me $750,000 and I'll leave. I'm like, we can sue you for $750,000, how about that. And he's like, how about we do nothing, but then I'm free and clear and I'm like, well, we'll do nothing, but we're not signing anything that allows you to be free and clear because obviously the company still is on the hook for all this missing money. So, yeah, it was a mess to get into it.

But then once we did, I said, so, okay, why did you hire this guy? And I think that was the question that really, they had never thought about it. When they started out, the wife of the couple, she was hand sculpting all these little cute dragons out of clay, and they're doing pretty well. And this guy met him at a trade show and said, hey, how would you like to blow this business up? And we'll get you, you know, China manufacturing and we'll get into all these stores and whatever. And they saw dollar signs and opportunity and they jumped for it, but they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

They had no idea and so I had to sit down with them. And so my very first question to them is, I went out to meet them in Salt Lake City and I'm like, hey, okay, so let's sit down. I said, what does everybody do in this business and they said, well, we do everything. And I'm like, no, no, that's the best way to ruin a business right there. I said, so what do you individually do? And so they told me what their role in the business is supposed to be. Like, you know, I'm the CEO, I'm the art, and I'm the banker, basically, those are the three jobs. And I said, okay, they come from a nerd background. I'm a nerd myself. I don't look at that as being a bad thing and so they were also gamers.

One of them used to work for Blizzard, who created World of Warcraft and so there's a lot of gaming that happened in their life. I said, how about this? I'll come back tomorrow and we're going to play and I was just making it up. I said, we'll do Dungeons and Dragons Business Edition, but instead of playing like a warrior or a rogue or a wizard, we're going to play your role in the business. And then instead of fighting monsters we're going to have encounters with problems you're going to run into in business and you're like, okay, sure. So we sat down for six hours, we played it, and at the end of it, the CEO turned to me and he's like, is this what business is?

Because if it is, I think I finally understand it and it sounds fun and I was like, ahahaha, yes, this is what it is. And so, and what was nice about it is once they grasped the concept of business, then they started earning this money. So instead of being 50,000 net, they're at $800,000 net and that's only within six months. Six months of just having the information allowed them to understand and operate their business on their own terms, doing what they want to be doing without losing everything that was there. I mean, it's a huge success story.

H: There's many things I love about this, Paul, but there's two things I love most of all. One is, in true ADHD fashion, you just kind of made it up. Like you just thought, well, this sounds like this might be fun for me, maybe it'll be fun for them, let's just give it a whirl, you know. So you proposed it, they took it, you probably went back to your hotel room and literally created it overnight, came back the next day and did it and it worked. But only people with ADHD would do something so audacious as that, to just literally make something up, because it sounded like it would be fun based on the kind of people that you were sitting down with.

But also that you used the fact that they were gamers and the fact that you're a gamer to literally almost take business out of the equation and just make it fun. So all their thoughts about, well, we don't know dick about business. That's why they got swindled by this guy but you weren't really talking to them about business. You were talking to them from the perspective of roles and games, which they were already very familiar with. And then you're like, hey, maybe I could do this for other people too and here we go.

G: That's exactly what happened. And it was funny like from that idea came my first book, which I'm like, why don't we turn this into an actual game and I'm a big Dungeons and Dragons nerd. So I'm like, I'm going to make a Dungeons and Dragons style book and it's going to be the player's handbook. But you're the player and it's not a game, it's your life, it's your business and I was like, yeah, let's go ahead and do that. And you're right, it is the ADHD speaking that allows you to kind of go out into this. But what I loved about it was when we were playing the game, there were aha moments. And I know you've probably seen these as a therapist or as a consultant coach, but their eyes get little bit, I love micro expressions because it's the best way to read.

The eyes getting a little bit big and then they're like, oh, and a little twitch to the side. I'm like, you're getting it, you’re getting it and that's the thing. And what I realized when writing the first book was that it's not about Dungeons and Dragons, it's not about even a game, it's about translation. And so I was like, well, yeah, it's gamify business but at the same time all I am doing is translating concepts into something. I love metaphors and similes so that's my bread and butter and to be able to translate it into something that they can relate to. So I have people who have no gaming experience whatsoever.

I think we've even talked about, you're like, I'm not a gamer, it's like, doesn't matter. What are you interested in? My ADHD brain will go and deep dive into that stuff and then I'll come back and I'll be able to talk to you on something that you thrive in and then explain things in that so that those concepts become like solidified. And I think that's what really came out of it. And I call it gamify because I think, you know, life is, should be fun and if you're not having fun in life, what are you doing? So that's really what I want to do. And so we game it, we game your life, we game business, we just have some fun.

H: It's hell of a lot more fun than most people experience business because let's be honest, most business coaches, not you and I of course, but most business coaches find out what their clients goals are and then give them a roadmap, you hand them a character sheet. And this is where I see your acting background really comes in. Also, even you noticing the micro expressions, that is a therapist skill and that is an actor skill, like, just noticing those little minute changes.

So you hand them a character sheet, you're literally inviting them to play a role. What happens to someone psychologically when they're given that permission and they're given that invitation, like, you get to play a character versus talking about themselves, which, in my experience, most neurodivergence and most creatives and most neurodivergent creatives really aren't so good about that and they don't like it.

G: Yeah, yeah. We like to hide and I was that guy for 12 years, let me tell you. I'd love to hide. I mean, I still I said at the beginning here, I like to be behind a desk. Between me, it's like no, that's the thing. I'll be put on a roll. No, what I found was that working with entrepreneurs or creatives is that especially creative entrepreneurs is that they have zero flaws. That's what they'll tell you. I do everything perfectly. It's great and then but we know it's a lie, because we've lived it. We're experiencing that and so when I say we're gonna, I need you to know who you are. You're like, ah, I already know who I'm good. I'm good. I'm like, okay, cool, let's play a game.

We're gonna create a character, the character is gonna be you. But, you know, in this game that we're gonna play, so what character flaws does that person have? Oh, well, you know, they're not really good at this. They're not really good at that and I'm like, okay, cool. You know, and what I found psychologically is that one step removed from ego opens so many doors, because we're not concentrating on flaws as a negative. What we're doing is we're looking for shortcomings that we can bolster up, and we do that with either skills items or we do it with other people.

But you can't know what you need if you don't know what you need, you only know what you know. And so that's what the character sheet does, is it's just a deep dive into yourself. But from a character point of view, like, we've all played the games where you're like, okay, I got to create this character, or I get a little backstory or whatever. I make them go do that just to themselves and I never look at it. It's not my responsibility to look at that. It's theirs, it's like a diary. But I want them to know fully who they are. And we'll talk about it in sessions and we'll go through it and we'll be like, okay, explain this to me.

Let's, that's too surface, that's the first thing that happens. Everybody just skims through it, they don't go deep and I'm like, no, this is for you. Go deeper, let's see where we can because in that information is your entire business. Like, there's a reason you're doing this, there's a reason you got into this and it's not fame and fortune. Fame and fortune is the result after years and years, but it's not the reason you got into it. And I want to know that seed and so that's really what the character sheet does, is it allows them to separate themselves from their own ego for a hot second so that they can then truly explore who they are and put it on paper so that they can see it, they can reflect on it.

And what I also emphasize is that your character sheet is a snapshot of who you are in the now is not who you were, is not who you're going to be. It's who we are now and then we kind of build around that and you're always going to level up. And I love using gaming terms like that because people respond to it better than saying, well, you're going to improve as a human. You're going to level up, yes, I am, you know, so it just, it fills them with more joy. It's about as strong as a gold sticker, a gold star sticker. I give those out too. And I've never seen adults happier when they get their gold star, you know, it's such a weird thing, but it's how we work. And so that's really what the whole point of it is. It's self reflection, but some somewhat separated so that they feel comfortable enough to explore that area.

H: You know, I'm thinking back to my therapist career and especially very early on when I was working with young children, if kids had to talk about abuse, you know, especially in the family, that felt really, really scary and really dangerous and really unsafe, especially confiding in another adult who was more or less a stranger. So one of the ways we would create safe emotional distance, which is what you do with the character sheet with the avatar, is they would act out what happened to them with puppets, right?

So it isn't what happened to them or with dolls or with a dollhouse or we implement all kinds of different things. But it was like they can project their experience onto this other object or this representation of themself. But it felt safe because, as you say, it was a detachment from ego. I'm also reminded the fact I think I've shared with you previously. I happen to be Buddhist, and so one of the Buddhist core concepts is non attachment, non attachment to possessions, non attachment to this existence, non attachment to your ego and who you think you are.

And it reminds me of this book by Joe Dispenza called Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. And I think I love the title even more than the book because what you're doing the book is pretty dense and, you know, adhd. I don't even think I finished it, but I love the title of it because it's kind of what I'm doing in my work. And what you're doing in your work is you're literally giving them a permission slip to be someone else, but also be like them and I think that is absolutely brilliant. Have you ever found that somebody has revealed something about themselves through this process that they hadn't previously acknowledged?

G: Absolutely.

H: All the time. Right?

G: Yeah. And it's those moments, and you don't want to harp on it. You don't want to be like, oh, you know, yeah, then they shut down, like you mentioned earlier. No, it's what it is, is it's me as the game master, as the barkeeper. You know, I tuck that information away, and then we can pull that, pull it out, or you navigate towards that. Because it's those significant moments that really shape who they are and want to be, or the direction that they're trying to head to.

They just may not have the skill sets yet to get there. And so I think as a therapist, as a consultant, as a guide, I think that's one of the strongest things that you could do is to pay attention to the client, to the other person, and then not parrot back, but to absorb their information, parse it out, and then navigate toward it to help them feel as though they're, you know, these are ideas that they came up with, or, you know, it's the game lays itself out for them, and you're just doing your job correctly as the guy by using that information.

H: Yeah. The game reveals itself. Hey, something we've talked about, and I would love to talk a little bit more about today, is this whole idea of the starving artist, because you know when you were sharing about what happened with your client where they had someone extorting all their money, they hired that person to begin with. Because creatives, artists in particular, automatically I'm not doing this for the money and I'm not good with money. Those are two beliefs. They're not just limiting beliefs, they're true for most of them. They love making the art and they love making other people happy with the art. They're usually not counting their pennies.

And many of us have been told, oh, don't go into a creative field, you're never going to make any money. And there are plenty of creatives who will say, oh yeah, I have a day job where I make real money and then I make my art, which I don't even charge people for because I love doing it so much. Your TED Talk, which I think is coming up in just a few months, TEDx, sorry, is coming up in just a few months is all about that. So like, why do you think people are still falling for this because this has been going on for fuck ever

G: For over 200 years, Industrial Revolution is actually when it really, really started. Before the Industrial revolution, artists were just like everyone else. They either state sponsored or they found patrons. I mean that's what we did. Like Mozart had patrons all the time, he was never starving, he was sought after. But then what happened is the Industrial Revolution happened and with the industry being able to pump out lots of stuff, they didn't have to worry about the artist of creation. What they needed to worry about was the artist of ideation and that was where they got us because they basically put out a giant campaign of you as an artist alone can’t do this.

You are going to fail, you're going to be starving, you're never going to. You need companies that can, you can work for so that we can produce all the stuff that you need. So either do it on your own and starve to death or join us and give us all of the ideas and that's really where it came from. And unfortunately it was a very strong campaign and we think of some of the masters out there, like Van Gogh died destitute, not knowing that he was brilliant, Jackson Pollock, the same thing. You know, it's like all of these current people because we've been told over and over again that artists need to be poor.

They like to relate us to clergy where it's like, oh, you're closer to God, so therefore you should live in poverty for it or come to the dark side and work for this company where we'll make all the money and we'll just pay you a flat rate, but you'll be okay and you're still doing the thing that you love. It's bullshit is what it is and that's what the TED talk is about for me, is saying we are, I believe that creatives, artists especially, are the souls of humanity.

H: Yes.

G: When you want to become human again, you do something that a creative created. You listen to your music, you watch a movie, you eat a fine meal, you drive your fancy car, you dress up in your nice clothes, all those things came from a creative mind. The fact that they bring you back to humanity should be exalted, not punished. And so I'm trying to flip the script on that one to let us know that it wasn't always this way. In, like, way back before civilization was around, artists were revered. They were nearly godlike. We look at cave paintings. We don't look at how they organize their tribes. We look at the paintings that they did of all the animals, the handprints and stuff.

That's us, that's humanity right there and so let's come back to that, especially now with AI. And don't get me wrong, love AI, I use it every day, but yeah, there's a creative behind it. And I fight with so many artists about AI all the time, about this idea that they're stealing it away from me. I'm like, they're not stealing. It's evolving. It's the next Industrial Revolution, so where do we go from there? That's the conversation we should be having, don't fear that your jobs are going to be stolen. We are and will always be necessary, otherwise we just become robots. And it's like, I'm not a robot, you're not a robot. Why do we want to be that way? We don't, we need people to help us bring back our humanity.

H: Oh, my goodness. I feel you. You could either be behind the bar or behind the pulpit. I'm like, preach, brother. But I feel like if I don't confess this right now, it's going to be distracting me. You know, my kids are now grown and flown. Two sons and a daughter, all adhd, thanks, Mom. And before I even knew I had it and two of them are highly creative, Paul. And I am one of those people who, because this was done to me and someone who was creative in my teens and then soon as high school was over, I'm like, okay, that shit is indulgent. You need to set it aside and go out and be serious and get a career going and make money and just if you have time, you can do that stuff, you know, on the weekends.

And I really did not encourage my kids to go into the arts. In fact, I would say I actively discouraged them. And now here I am 20 something years later realizing one, I can forgive myself because I was just repeating what had happened to me. But I think this is a renaissance that is happening in our entire culture because so many people told their kids, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. Some of them went out and fucking did it anyway and found ways to do it and not starve. But do you see with some of the creatives that you work with that one of the things they struggle with and maybe the gamifying business helps them gain that safe emotional distance from is this internal conflict about, well, can I make art or can I make a living?

G There is it, it is there. It's an elephant and it sits on your back. I mean, I'd say it's an albatross, but it's heavier than that. It is a weight carry and you're not wrong because there's a term that we use in this in creative society, it's the selling out.

H: Yes, I was just thinking that, yes.

G: Artist is going to sell out. What is selling out? Well, when you ask artists to, to define it, and I do often, it's like, what is selling out to you? Well, selling out is when you're making, you know, people are really buying your stuff. I'm like, that sounds like a career that sounds like you're selling the right way.

H: That’s selling. That's not selling out.

G: Yeah, right. And so, well, you lose yourself, you lose your visual voice. Well, that's a choice and you can be hard and fast with your rules, but you've got, you know, I believe to bend, don't break. You know, if you're very firm and rigid in your ideas, you're going to get left behind or you're going to get broke. It's just going to happen. But you can still be who you are and still have your voice in your, and that's what really what your power is, is your perspective. But what happens is we start, and social media has been really bad for this, is that we feel like we have to appeal to the masses.

Like, millions of people have to enjoy what we produce. And the reality is no, because you can't please everyone. And when you try to, you start to gray out everything. It becomes, you're beige. You know, nobody wants to be beige. We want vibrant colors and so that's who you should be pitching to. And so when people say, oh, they sold out, I'm like, no, they're being successful, that's fine. And if they feel like their ideas are getting muddled, go talk to that artist, and you'll see that there's an entire side business that's going on where they're thriving in that.

But it's because they have the opportunity because they sold to some amount of beige, but they're still being colorful off to the side. So I think that's really the weight that has to be removed from them is to let them know that you're not selling out. You can be successful. You can earn a living, and there's nothing wrong with earning a living. But if you've got to carry that weight in fear that you're going to lose who you are artistically or creatively, then make sure that your focus on your customers. The people who should be buying this are the ones who enjoy who you are in the message that you're giving and they're out there. They are out there.

H: You know, you make a distinction. And that was really, really helpful to me in a previous conversation, because I never thought of myself as a creative because I'm not an artist. And you say, okay, I think the way you say it is every artist is a creative, but not every creative is an artist. Did I get that right?

G: That's right.

H: Yeah and I think I'm beginning to reclaim my creativity. And it first came from other people referring to me as a very creative person. I'm looking behind me, like, who are they talking to? Like, so how do you make that distinction in, like, the artist versus the creative?

G: So, like, a lot of people don't know this, but I'm a huge nerd for taxes. I love doing taxes. Okay, weird things.

H: Legitimately crazy.

G: Yeah. Yes, 100%. But there's a game in it, there's a joy in making the numbers make sense. So an actuary has to be creative because there's math that has to go in into that. There are people who, there are cooks out there who are just absolutely creative, and they would say, I can't draw a stick figure, but they can create Michelin star dishes. Yes, that's a creative. Every human is creative. I mean, it's literally the thing that is the distinction between us and animals is our ability to use imagination and creativity. So everybody is creative, but we have like tied creativity to artistic so much that it becomes, it falls into that weight of poor again. It's like, oh, you're creative.

So you're really good at saying, would you like fries with that? It's like, no, no, no, no, it's not the thing. So everybody is creative and so that's why when I talk about, I don't often say artists when I'm this field, I say creatives because it's wide reaching. I had a guy was a client of mine and he started mowing lawns when he was in his teens and he liked doing it and he didn't want to go to college. He didn't think college is for him and so he started a lawn mowing business. And this is 40 years down the line when he's like, hey Paul, can you help me with some stuff? And I'm like, man, you're super creative.

And he's like, I'm not creative at all. I have creative bone in my body but can you help me with this invention that I came up with? You contradicted yourself, you came up with an invention. He's like, well, yeah, but this is a thing that I just need it to do my job easier. That's all invention is, man. So yes, you're definitely creative even though you mow lawns for a living, that's the distinction. So artists are always going to be creative because that's just what we do. But everybody is creative, so you don't need to be an artist to be creative.

H: This also reminds me of another concept we've talked about where you make a distinction between and I refer to it as linear thinkers and non linear thinkers or neurodivergent and neurotypical. But you use a different term, you divide people between linear thinkers and cloud thinkers.

G: Yes. I love the idea. It's clouds are, I've heard linear and I've heard lateral. And I'm like, well that's just a linear turn sideways, that's not how I look at this.

H: Don't drag me back to geometry class, Paul. I'm going to snap out here in a second.

G: Yeah, that takes a creative mind, by the way. But with cloud thinking, adhd is cloud thinking. Because if you ever watched a thunderstorm, like one of those giant thunderheads and you see the lightning sparking, it's never in one spot. It kind of here and then jumps over here. That's how people with adhd, it's how super creative people think they are not thinking A to B to C to D, A to F to squirrel to left, left hand turn. I mean, we're everywhere and that's really what makes it easier for us to do the things that we do. But it also is the thing that trips us up because the world, I'm a lefty, I don't know if you knew that, but I'm a lefty.

So I've lived in a world of the 10 percenters, 10% of the population is left handed. And so the world, 90% of the world is for right handed people. So everything has for me has been a challenge to adjust myself to being right handed. I'm also adhd, so I'm thinking I'm living in a world of linear thinkers, of everyone living in the gray and the beige, and I'm here sitting in a cloud thinking in rainbows. And so it's like, how do I fit myself into that? And so it's understanding how you think and then adapting the world to that way of thinking which we all do.

Whether you're a linear thinker or not, we just don't think of it that way. When you get a job and you're giving a tutorial on how to do the job, you're basically giving the guardrails A to B to C to D. Same thing with linear, with cloud thinkers is we're given the guardrails but we don't go down the line, we bounce around it all over the place. And so understanding that about ourselves, how we think, then applying that methodology to keep us on track, that's really where that understanding comes in handy.

H: That totally makes sense. Hey, can you work with a linear thinker?

G: I can because I have trained myself to be a linear thinker when I need to. But I find myself frustrated a lot of the times because concepts which like taking a left turn for me, like in the middle of a conversation, jumping into something else doesn't bother me at all. I'm like, yeah, let's do it. But with a linear thinker, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, it shuts them down. So if I'm encountering a linear thinker, if I'm having to work with a linear thinker, I have to then force myself into that lane. And it's small doses for me because I know eventually I'm going to be like, why aren't you doing that?

You know, and getting my frustration level will peak. But in when I'm working with them and a lot of times with business, because especially in the creative business, I have to hire manufacturers. Manufacturers are very linear not a lot of cloud in there, or if I'm honestly like working with Disney. Disney is not a creative industry. They have the people at the top, the ones who are making the decisions are linear 100%, they're bean counters. I like to call them linear thinkers. The creatives are so far down the row here that you're never going to encounter them or that's where you're working.

So when I work with Disney, I'm not working for Disney. I'm working with a company, a company, a company, Paul and there's creatives along the way. But the further you get back to Disney, the further the linear they become. And so you have to understand how those games are played and then how to fit into them so that you're not abrasive because they do want your skills, but if you're going to be an abrasive commodity, they're going to let you go quicker. So yes, you have to learn how to adjust.

H: You know what, I love that you describe that when you're working because people say, oh, I want to work with Nickelodeon. Oh, Paul Pape worked with Nickelodeon and then Disney and all that. It's like ultimately we are human beings working with human beings. And if you are working with decision makers, they're pretty far up the food chain. And the higher up the food chain you go, by and large, the more likely you are to be a linear thinker because you have to have the level of executive functioning that lets you plan, prioritize, sequence things. All of that stuff that we find really quite distasteful.

So but the fact that you still referred to it as a game and I think that you know, and you know, here's my therapist hat slipping back on is that as a lefty and one of my three kids is a lefty and we've had a similar conversation. And also, you know, roughly 10% of people are neurodivergent and we live in a world that's made for neurotypicals. 10% of people are left handed, they live in a world made for neurotypicals.

So you could have, Paul, early on had the mindset, you know, so unfair, why does everything have to be so difficult? Why is everything set up for other people and I am meant to struggle? Or you could adopt what is clearly the mindset you have adopted. And that's what I call the everything's figureoutable frame of mind, which is everything requires a workaround. And you use your curiosity and creativity to create those workarounds and now you help other people do that.

One of the ways that you help people do that that I think is so fun is that instead of calling something that they need to do a task, which usually, you know, they start to throw up in their mouth a little because it's like, oh, fuck all those productivity books, all those productivity courses, no, no, no. You, of course, as the game master, call them quests. But it's not just as simple as, oh, I'm just going to sneak this word in there so that they don't know what's happening. What is the difference between, like, the quest structure and just like, productivity broken down into tasks.

G: So I love a quest because a quest, like, if you think about, let's think about the word quest, I mean, we know where it comes from. We think about the Knights of the Round Table or we think about somebody who's going on this epic adventure but there's a goal. There's always a goal and it's either the pot of gold or the chest or the magic or damsel or whatever. And so all of that is there, and it's insinuated in the word quest. When I say task, I see a beginning, a middle and an end, and it's boring and there's no reward.

But when I hear quest, oh, there's a reward in this for me, I'm going to get something for doing this. And sometimes that something is personal growth, but nobody wants to be told that's your reward and so it's very much the carrot and the stick. And I mean, I hate to break it down to be so simple like that, but we are simple animals. As much as we'd like to say we're not,

H: We just talk and wear clothes.

G: That's right, that's exactly and so what? When we talk about quests, I always make sure that when I'm working with my clients and we work out their quest sheet and I love. When they leave me, I give them 90 days worth of quests and we work out what it is, every one of them has a reward. And sometimes the rewards are simple, you get a candy bar that you love to have. That's your treat for doing this thing. I find that motivation is a lot easier. We also talk a lot in all humans do of the five, ten year plan. What's the five minute plan? What's the five day plan?

H: This is ADHD friendly

G: Yeah. And so like that's what you really need to have is like, so what are these micro rewards that I'm going to get that build momentum. Because you know as well as I do that at any minute I could be working on something and then a squirrel appears and I'm gone doing something else. If I don't have a reason to go back to that original thing, I'm going to continue following that squirrel. And so these little micro quests with rewards at the end are the things that help keep you on track and it does work very well with the ADHD mind.

H: You know what, one of the things that I think I learned about the way you work very similar to the way I work. And actually, as you were talking about the Industrial Revolution and the whole thing, there was scale, scale, scale. I mean, the Industrial Revolution is also where we got the concept of work for eight hours, sleep for eight hours and fit everything else into eight hours. Before that, before electricity, people slept when it got dark and they got up when it was light and whether that was 7 or 6 or 10 or 12 hours. Now we have the Industrial Revolution and electricity to thank for all this regimen at eight hours for this, eight hours for that, eight hours for the other thing. But Industrial Revolution puts scaling on the map.

You know, the whole manufacturing everything is like, you know, we can make more of these things. They won't be as precious, they won't be as unique, they won't be as artisanal, but there will be more of them and we can reduce costs. And then it was offshore and all that, but you and I both chose bespoke instead of scalable. We both work with about 50 people a year. We both hand pick our clients and we both keep getting told over and over and over, you should launch a group program, you should create a course, you should have a membership or a mastermind or just some sort of quote unquote leverage one to many offer. Why is this a bad piece of advice for you in particular?

G: That's a lovely question and I wish people would retrospect on this a lot more. I could score, you know, I could scale up, but there's something about the connectivity, I believe, that really makes a difference. I'm not here to change the world I just want to change. I want to create a ripple, I want to change individuals and it's I can't do that at scale. I could give again, it comes down to Beijing out everything. I think I could create a class and then give you generic answers, but it's not going to really move the needle for you. It might inspire you a little bit, but then you're on your own again to figure it out. Whereas if I work bespoke, it's my entire business model with Paul Paint Design Santa for nerds, it's like, what is it that you truly want, let me figure it out for you.

And I love that aspect of it because brings genuine magic to people's lives. Whereas instead of being a performer and you're just kind of mystifying everybody with some aether, I think that you're truly creating something that is transformative for an individual. And that approach, I believe it's like having a really good teacher, having that approach. They pass that on and it's like, it's almost legacy building in a way. Kind of serves my own ego a little bit. But it's working with these people on an individual level to show them that the world still has magic, that it can be bespoke to them, and they'll go out and they'll continue that path down the line and that's really what we need more of.

We need less industrialization. We need more creativity, more individualism. Because, again, this is the human experience. It's not the machine experience. It's not the don't be like everyone else. You know, for years, I wore T shirts with graphics on it for years and years and years and sounds kind of left field. But then I realized that at a certain point, it's like, I'm not these things that people want me to be. I'm Paul and so, like, let's get rid of all that. So now I wear, like, nothing.

They're like, it's just all blanks and whatever because I don't want people to worry about, what's this graphic that oh, you're a big fan of Dungeons and Dragons. I can see it on your shirt, it's like, no, I'm just Paul. So now I just walk around with no brand names, nothing, I'm just this dude. But when you talk to me, then they're like, oh, you are the brand. You are that special. Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to put out to other people is that your individuality is the gift, the monotony, the beige is the thing you need to get rid of.

H: This resonates so, so strongly with me, Paul, because I think so many people with ADHD are always moving on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I get it, we're impulsive, we treat boredom like a life threatening condition. We have so many ideas and of course we want to do them all, I totally get it. I live with this for my entire life but I think most of us, and I know we've talked about this previously as well, you know, we don't go into this to become rich and famous. We go into our business because we have passion and oftentimes a sense of purpose. We usually need someone like you or I to remind us, yes, but it also needs to be profitable.

So we need to get that other, we need to invite that other P to the party. You know, so we have passion, purpose and profit. But it's really hard to facilitate. What I think I'm really realizing through this conversation is it's truly an identity transformation. Working with you or working with me. You start with the person that you are and the business that you have. And whether you are going through the gamifying approach or, or the ADHD-ish method, you literally become a different person with a different business on the other side. Because your ego, your identity, who you think you are, what you think you're capable of, all of that goes through a process of iteration over the course of those months.

And nobody is talking about this, nobody is recommending this, nobody is selling this. Because it's really like going back to an earlier way of working where something really unique and customized and special was so prized and so valuable and we've utterly lost it with Target and TJ Maxx. And you know, it's like, and naturally we get rid of those things much more quickly because they didn't mean that much to begin with. You have not only created a business that is completely wrapped around your unique brilliance, but you got the lifestyle to go with it and I think that's the other half of what I think some people miss out on.

They start a business and then they actually duplicate the job that they hated and, you know, escaped from. You're a stay at home dad, you've got a creative costume designer wife, you've got three creative kids, you work out of a studio in your basement. You've literally designed not only the business, but the life around who you are, how you like to live, how you like to work. I would love for you to tell me that that was super intentional and strategic. I have a feeling you kind of like, figured it out over time or stumbled into it but tell me, how did it happen, I have to know.

G: I was literally talking to my therapist about this. So, my brain has always been this way, as you're well aware. It's a condition that you, it's genetic, you can't help it. And so what I found is I am, I built this very specifically, accidentally. But in retrospect, when I look back at it, I'm like, there is not a bit of my life that was not Paul. From the very beginning, in elementary school, I used to have two desks. One for work, one for play. No one else in the these are the old school ones that you could lift up the top. And my teachers never once told me I couldn't do it. But when I needed to be creative, I sat in the other desk, like, I just and I created my own classes in school.

I'm walking my own path here and you can let me, or I'm going to do it anyways and you're going to be upset. And so I think it's just, I had that kind of mentality and it wasn't ever aggressive or mean spirited or hurt anyone else. It just affected me and my timeline. And so I think I was fortunate in the fact that only a handful of teachers in my life ever really tried to corral me. The rest of them just like, let him let's see what he can, let's see what he does and that mentality has helped me a lot. So when I was in my undergrad, I had the wild hair to call up Tim Burton because I wanted the rights to Nightmare Before Christmas so I could put it into a stage musical and so I just did, I called Tim Burton.

H: Why not?

G: Yeah, why not? And then I called Danny Elfman, I talked to their lawyers, and I'm like, I want the rights. And they're like, okay, I'm like, why not? You know, because what's the worst that can happen and so, like, I would love to say that I sat and planned it out, but, you know, adhd don't plan anything.

H: No, no, no, no.

G: But when I look back at it, like, I have been me and unapologetically me my entire life. And that's the thing that I think a lot of my clients are missing is they want to fit inside of a predictable goal in their life and I struggle with this today. I mean, literally was talking to therapist about it is that I feel outside of the current.

H: Yes.

G: And the current of humanity and I was so desperately want to swim in that, to be normal. But my therapist is like, you can jump in all you want, you're never going to not be you. And so I was like, okay, but how do I accept that I'm not with the rest of the herd? And it's like, just keep being you in bringing the joy and the light that you bring with your uniqueness to everyone else. And that's how you fit in, and I talked to you about this earlier. I said, do you feel lonely?

H: Yes.

G: And I think a lot of people who are hyper creative who have adhd, they feel lonely a lot and that's something that I have struggled with for decades. I'm 50 years old and I can still think back to elementary school, and I'm like, I got one friend. I wasn't a team sport person because I always felt like I was outside and so that loneliness is something that's very pervasive. But what I found is that in dealing with the loneliness, I found the ability to chameleon myself into anything. And so I use this as not a way to hide or a way to fit in, but now I find it as a way to relate and I have a giant tattoo on my arm that actually says this.

And it allows me to be who I am, but also engage with everyone else, but without sacrificing what makes me unique and makes me special. And that's when I talk with my clients, that's something that I really emphasize, is that your speciality is not a hindrance, this is not a curse. We talked about it, I said it's a superpower, but it's a superpower that is its own kryptonite at the same time. And so you have to understand how to mitigate both sides of that. But don't ever think about being ADHD as being the wrong kind of life. You've got to find the way to make it your power that works.

H: I can definitely tell that you've had the benefits of therapy, because recognizing that you're different, not fighting that, like accepting it and then really learning how to work with it and being honest enough with yourself to say, yeah, there's some cool things about being who I am and how I am. But it's also fricking lonely because there aren't many people like me. And what most people will say is that loneliness feels so scary and so oppressive that we mask and hide and shapeshift so that we can blend in a little better and I have done it for many, many years.

And now I am in the progressive unpacking of all that and shedding it and letting it go. Because and this is something I wish I had learned so much sooner and I'm so grateful that you did because it literally changes the course of your life. The more we have to shape shift or fake who we are to fit in, the less likely we're ever going to have relationships of any kind that feel satisfying. So I think one of the most important things about being self employed, however your business may look as a neurodivergent person, is find ways and get support if you need it.

To get down to your magic, I call it my magic too and learn how to share that with people in a way that feels safe. Because that is truly the only way you are going to attract people who want exactly who you are and what you offer. Nothing else works, but it can be a very scary, treacherous road and I think it's usually best traveled not alone.

G: Yeah. I mean, I love being Santa for nerds. Because if you think about Santa, what is Santa's a guy who lives at the North Pole by himself, but in one night he helps billions of children. You know what a unique like if Santa doesn't have adhd, I would be.

H: I'm just thinking that you said I don't want long term engagements. I want to get in and get out. Yeah, one night, that works for me.

G: Right. So like, isn't that what we all are? Just a little bit of Santa, you know, it's like we are, it's, there's magic to it, but that magic doesn't have longevity because that longevity affects us. If we caught Santa, it would off Santa, we don't want to do that. The magic is in the fact that he can't be held and I think that there's something beautiful in that.

H: Damn, you’re the philosopher here. Hey, listen, I feel like you have already dropped so many wisdom bombs, but if you have one more up your barkeep sleeve, what would be the most important piece of business wisdom you'd like to impart to folks with ADHD who see themselves as creatives? What's the most important thing about business.

G: The best way to be successful in business is to be the hero of your own adventure. It's when we pursue, we ride the dragon, we try to catch the dragons of Fame and Fortune, but we can't. And in doing so, we have to be fast enough to be swift enough, we have to strip away everything that we are. So by the time we catch Fame and Fortune's dragons, we are not who we want to be. But if we sit and ride the dragon of passion, the thing that makes us who we are, the dragons of fame and fortune fall in behind.

And that's the best advice I can give you, is be your own hero. Be the person who stars in your adventure and know that every other person is the hero of their own adventure as well. But ride passion, find passion and just run with that. And let me say, everything else that you want will fall in place and it will not be an easy road and adventures never are. That's the adventure.

H: So just that's what makes them special. Hey, if somebody's listening right now and they recognize themselves in this conversation, they're creative, they're a cloud thinker. They've been told you have to do this, you have to do that. This is how business is and they have so much resistance to the status quo. What is the one thing you want them to walk away with and where would you like them to find you? Because you've got all kinds of groovy things going on, where would you like them to start to become part of your world?

G: Head over to gamifybusiness.com and if you go, there's a quiz that I want you to take as a personality quiz. You can go to gamifybusiness.com/quiz and it'll take you right to it. And it's a game that you play, but it will tell you who you are, like what your business class like, who you are in this great adventure and how you think. And understanding how you think is the first step into becoming the hero of your own adventure. And so go and take that quiz, it takes 10 minutes, it's fun. And then you get a huge deep dive, like an 11 page deep dive into how your personality works and if that resonates with you, that kind of opens up the door to everything else.