How do you keep your clients engaged between in-person events without falling back into the trap of trading one-to-one time for money?

Professional drummer and educator Ciara Chinniah joins me to share her journey from teaching in schools to running empowering women's drum camps and co-hosting the ‘Drummer Mamas Podcast.’

In this conversation, we game plan for:

• Even better client engagement

• Leveraging podcasts to serve business

• Build trust and visibility through partnerships

Time-stamps:

03:19 Drum Camps: Emotional & Empowering

06:19 The podcast that supports mamas and papas

12:33 Instant Gratification of Drumming

15:14 Who dynamic ads keep the asset alive

18:20 Who to sell ads space to

21:24 Beware the Tony Robbins Effect

23:01 Post-Event Engagement Strategy

29:06 Balancing Membership Growth and In-Person Engagement

32:01 Power of Price Anchoring

34:41 Women's Retreat

Guest Deets:

Find Ciara at: https://www.ciaradrums.com/

Listen to Drummer Mamas Podcast: https://drummermamas.buzzsprout.com/

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Adding Online Value To In-Person Events with Ciara Chinniah

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Toby Goodman: How do you keep your clients engaged between in-person events? What else can you do without falling back into the trap of one-to-one time for money? And how do you ensure the high quality content you make continues to serve your business as it changes? Welcome to Not Another Business podcast with me, Toby Goodman.

My guest today is Ciara Chinniah, a working mom and professional drummer. She's been through the record deal and touring phases. More recently, she's a published author and educator, frustrated with a capped income. Ciara quit teaching in schools and started teaching privately. On her own terms. Then she made a genius move.

Toby Goodman: If you are in business and identify as pod curious, or your podcast isn't working out the way you'd hoped, I've got more for you, including episodes, my bestselling book, narrow Podcasting and Profitable Pod Method Skill Sessions. For all that and more about how I can support your business, head over to narrow podcasting.com

You're obviously an amazing teacher. You're an author. I think you still do one-to-one teaching. Is that right? Yeah. You're a parent. Then you've got this thing where you do drum camps specifically for women, and you hold space in a really safe way. And that's really interesting because A, it's great that you are doing that.

And the fact that it's drums and that's still women playing drums is still considered to be, not as much anymore, but certainly when I was coming up it was like, oh do you know any girl drummers? Like it's a weird thing and it's not weird at all.

Love that you are doing it. Love that you're, the face of it,. And then you've got, this podcast Drummer Mamas with Gemma Hill. Yeah. Again, I don't know, but I know of. Talking about what it's to be a parent. What? It's to be a drummer. So good. What's next for you?

I love so much my drum camps. I just had one at the weekend and I'm still not over it. I'm still ~like, so like ~exhausted in a really good way because ~it's. I feel like ~it's more than drums. It's so emotional and about all the psychology behind learning, intertwined with being a woman and so many confidence things we can feel, and I'm sure a lot of guys feel it too, but I see a trend.

~Work life a bit better. ~I would like to do some more lessons or workshops online so people can access it online. And I'm not trading my time for money all the time, so I'm making that transition from teaching quite a lot of one-to-ones to trying to ease up a little bit.

~Great. ~Yeah. So his target market, not specifically female, but ~definitely he's ~definitely as women and ~makes people, ~I think most of his clients are in the us. Most of them have got jobs. They just wanna be able to play the bass in a band and it's all great. So he's found this market, which is pretty big.

And the way he communicates is, different to maybe his competitors, which is what makes him unique, which is the same as you. And he has a membership where he teaches, he's got hundreds of videos at this point where he teaches, how to hold a bass or what the string notes are called. Like absolutely from the start all the way up to

Great. You can do that. There's also loads of it already that exists. I think the thing that you have is the ability to coach them and help them and talk to them. Because you, are you in a way that they wouldn't be necessarily interested in Jared whats, his face from Drumeo talking, not because he's bad, but because there's a big difference between being, a woman who lives in the UK who's interested in yoga and all of that stuff.

~Whatever it's fine. So it's fine. ~So I think there's definitely a market for it. The fact that you've targeted specifically women is really cool and it makes you happy and it makes them happy and awesome. I love the fact that you've got a Drummer Mama's podcast, and my initial thought was a bit.

So how can your podcast. Everything you do just help you get to where you want to go? And am I right in thinking that where you want to go is a membership based business where you are getting recurring subscriptions every month where people have a certain amount of access to you and maybe you're working like you do in real time on your camps with cohorts of women?

That's a good question. ~And I dunno. That's the thing sometimes with the drummer mamas, ~I think it's more about visibility in terms of having the conversations that I've always wanted to hear about. Hold on, that dude is drumming. In the West End, but hasn't he got five children? Like what how's he doing that?

And then if people trust me, then they will more likely want to reach out to me and go, Hey, I'd really like to learn with you. So I guess that's what I've learned so far about podcasting and anything that I put online is to connect. Build trust and also, oh, what's that word? When I can show that people had a good time.

I dunno if I can swear, but I just thought, oh God, I don't want any trolls like saying I'm sexist, which I did get by the way. And then I realized, just target it to ladies. What are you doing? Funny that don't target it to men who could actually, the thing that's really annoying about right, is that if I have two, two boys, but if I had a daughter.

I'd wanna see that and I'd wanna say, Hey, you wanna learn with your old dad? Go. And, because there was that point. And my eldest son, I taught him during Covid and he got into it and he's into it. But he's definitely at the stage now where I'm his dad and I actually would love for him.

But also if I had a daughter, I. I'd wanna see those. Yeah. So target market. How would you describe your target market other than women who want to play drums or who do play drums? You seem to have two levels of camps, right? Yeah, I have a few. I've, total beginners, intermediate, advanced.

I'm gonna add intermediate to advanced next year. But what ifs. How many people are currently on your list of. Oh, so not that many. I'm just building it now. Like I remember a few years ago, I had 12 people on my list and I remember phoning my brother, 'cause my brother's really into like marketing and stuff.

And, it's been really cool seeing it happen, and being really intentional with what I post and then seeing the list grow and it's really cool. I'm really excited to just go for it. What's ~like ~the most outrageous, you, I couldn't possibly say this 'cause I'm British. What's the most outrageous best possible thing 3, 4, 5 years down the line that could be happening?

~Like between Big American style Tony Robbins? Like what's it looking like? ~Okay, so I've got 10 thousands of people on my list, maybe tens of thousands on my list. There's a women's drumming convention that happens and people fly in from all around the world, and it's like huge.

That's what I see. Yeah. I like that drumming is, has an immediate result around, like with a saxophone or something, it can take you 10 to get a note out of it that doesn't split or sound hideous. You can yes. Get drum and it gives you something back. So love that, that you can go in on a beginner's level and teach basic time and get something going very quickly and that's why there's been drum circles and all that kind of stuff for years.

You're not mentioning it on your podcast. Yeah, it feels cringe. Like I, I'll tell you something, a secret, which is not gonna be a secret. I have a podcast ready on my own , and I, it is been my intention to just do a podcast on my own, which is then fully talking about. Camps teaching and ~like my, oh, my, ~like my journey through it, but also bringing people with me so then I can talk about it.

My next drum camp is happening on . Go over here and find out more. That is a piece of audio that is 30 to 45 seconds long. That's dynamic. What that means is that can be placed at the front or anywhere at the middle or at the end of all of your episodes, at the touch of a button. Which means that like you just inter interviewed Derek McKenzie from Jamiroquai, who's super cool, and loads of people know who that is.

And you can share that with your co-host, right? Gemma's got something she's working on as well. Then she can have a spot to talk about specifically what she's doing. Yes. And you can change things. ~I don't know what gemma's up to. That's cool. ~The other thing you can do, because it's such a good podcast, honestly, I think ah, thanks.

The other thing you can do is you can think about. Okay. I'm ~somebody. You are ~somebody who teaches drums, runs camps, da, so you've got a pretty clear target market. Who else who doesn't do what you do serves that target market? I don't know. I'll give you a really easy one. Okay. And I know that because I was in there the other day and I saw.

Drum shops. Yoga, like whatever, all the other stuff that you do doesn't have to be drums specifically, but anything where you talk about it, and I know that you've got a bit of, you've got deals with Sonor, and a few other things going on that's so good. That's an they would want exposure.

If you are starting playing and you want a low volume kit for your da, da, dah. You might wanna check out this drum set from such and such. Those people or those shops ~or those yoga mat manufacturers ~want access to people who you've built trust from. And because the host Red Ad in podcasting is so strong, American DJs.

So that's another way of bringing money in. ~How do you. ~How do you approach those people? ~What's your, have you have, ~you ~already got, you've ~already got a relationship with at least one or two drum manufacturers. ~Yeah. ~So ~you've, ~you don't need to approach them, do you? You could just say, this is what I'm doing.

Would you like to try ~And, ~because of the dynamic ads, here's the other super sexy thing about dynamic ads ~is you can say. ~It doesn't have to be ~like ~a massive amount of money, ~right? It's all, ~it's about the time. ~So ~you can say, I'm going to do an ad for either the entire brand or, talk about with their marketing department what they're trying to push.

~But you will. ~They call, ~do it like work, ~work out what the thing is, put it on, and then in three months it's gone. And then there's FOMO for those guys because you can sell that space to a competitor or it can be replaced by something else. So you're not signing a lifetime of putting, I love this product on everything you've ever done because of how cool that technology is.

Yeah. But I want you to teach me how to play it. 'cause I like how you communicate and I connect with how you teach. That's literally it. It's interesting isn't it? I was having a conversation with my other brother 'cause I am a Tony Robbins fan. Been to loads of seminars. ~Have you?~

Yeah. ~And, ~he said to me, oh, let's go see Tony again. Let's do it. And I was like, yeah, I'm, I do love him still, but I actually really love listening to all these ladies. ~I. ~Who are kicking ass because they're where I'm at and ~he, ~as I've gotten older, it is really become apparent.

And he said, but not in the way you'd expect. I, he went to a thing. He said, I went to a thing. And I left thinking, how the hell did he do that? And then I made it my life's mission to work out the techniques he was using to, get in his own like thousands of people. And then he also told me about this thing that I think you may have gone through, and he said, have you heard of the Tony Robbins effect?

And that's the problem. And you've just described that because you've said what you are finding inspiring is where people are today. ~Isn't. Owning Fiji or whatever. He, this guy's it's insane. It's great and good on him and ~he's obviously very good at what he does. Yes.

~And there's controversy and whatever. Like he doesn't care about me and he's not listening to my podcast, whatever. ~He's an absolute master, but he isn't somebody. Living in North London, like exactly like ahead, but not so far ahead. They're flying around in private jets. 'cause you want tactical help if you know what you, yes.

Because you want, we all wanna be inspired and we all wanna be motivated by people who are super, super amazing. We also need an element of tactical help that says, okay, so you've got 444 people on your list. How do we double it? What's the lifetime value of a customer? What are you saying to them? Like as soon as you said, I've just done a.

So when I, I see all this stuff you're doing and I'm so excited. ~Yeah. What's. ~What's coming out for you for this conversation? 'cause I'm throwing like, everything at you now.

I feel like I'm just on the beginning with all of this and it's exciting, but it's also can feel a bit like, oh my God, there's so much to learn.

~And so yeah. ~For me I'm like, okay, when it's just after a camp. I, my main thing is get a review now. Yeah. Because they're buzzing. So that's what I do. I'm like, give me, if you can get gimme a review, that'd be great. So then I can show it and it's good social proof. And then, yeah, I don't have much follow up.

And it's really exciting. How many people are in the Facebook group then? 65. Okay, so that, so 444 65. Do you do the pre, do you do the early bird? To my members? Yes. Yeah. So you'd say I'm releasing them. That's super cool. Yes. And for the retreat, that's what we're doing too. We've got like a three step thing where it's like super keen people.

to make sure that camp is happening again, because you can afford to run the thing. ~Yeah. Do you know what I mean? ~Yeah. I love that. So definitely that's something I'd look at. Okay. The other thing that is, it's not like a massive problem, but the thing that I'd be a little bit aware of is the Facebook group thing.

~Yeah. ~Because of the fact that you don't own it. And the main thing, you own the email addresses of those people. So if something happens to Facebook, it gets closed down or some nightmare person makes a complaint and then they turn it off. ~You know you Yes. Vibe. ~So it might be worth at some point, owning your own community platform where people log in.

So to say, we are over here on this app, or we've got, there's a private link and it's away from the noise of Facebook really speaks to what you are doing as well. I like that at some point. Not urgent, but I might also look at that because those things aren't that expensive anymore. They used to be really expensive.

They're not. But the value add is massive. Like the perceived value add for the, yeah. So the other things you've heard this phrase, I'm sure that I like to use a lot, the low. Low cost, high value. Cost to you? High value to them. ~Yeah. ~So when you give them a t-shirt or a pair of sticks, when they come in, they get a little care package I've seen.

~So there's, okay. There's people that kind of, oh, hide. Hide behind my screen. ~So I love that you started there and you are moving into online. But we can learn so many lessons from Covid about how people don't want to be online as much anymore ~more. ~They wanna be out in the world playing drums and hanging out ~in, in, ~in person together.

~So I love the hybrid. ~I love what you've built. I'm just so buzzing for that partner thing and making sure that. The podcast or maybe podcasts that you have, if you're about to launch another one, make your life easier, not noisier, because they're all feeding the same goal, which is you are gonna have a massive convention.

Yeah. And that's a business that can run itself. And that potentially you can sell if you need to or if you want to. For whatever reason, that might come down the track because life. I like that. ~I need that to simmer in my head and maybe have a follow up chat, but I like it. ~Yeah, good. I'm so happy. ~And then there's here's another thing that I'll give I'll, that occurs as well.~

So Mike Makalowitz. Wrote a book called Profit First. I think he uses the Starbucks ~as a ~as an example. And the Starbucks example is this, in most flagship Starbucks around the world, in the big cities, you can buy a coffee machine for five, 600 quid. Because occasionally someone walks in and goes, shit, I've forgotten to buy my friend a birthday present.

What it does is it also is a kind of price anchoring, which is, " wow, if they coffee machines, their coffee must be really good". So then you just get more. "If she does a retreat in Barcelona, those drum camps in North London must be awesome". So just by showing people that you sell this other thing.

Now imagine what that's like with coaching and mentoring packages online. ~Okay? ~You pay X for this, and every month we do an ask me anything, and I put out a couple of drum lessons that you get access to first, and you ask me questions. 10% of you're gonna want my personal help. I've got a ~five ~five person group.

Problem is that happens when you're out in the world playing music. Oh shit. And there's no childcare for the gig. You've just been offered. And how'd you ~do that? Yes, ~do that. So the 10 x thing's really interesting because that also helps you think tactically about. Becoming ~the ~the British female drumming Tony Robbins in a real way.

I love it. What's been most useful so far? I, it's how it's messaging. Messaging has been the most useful because you are affirming what I've been thinking about.

How can I expect to it to grow or my audience to grow? Yeah. We built something amazing, we forgot to tell about it. Classic creative move. Yeah. I feel like I've got a creative brain. Yeah. Not business brain. Great yet. You have got a business brain. A hundred percent. The classic phrase, every, probably every conversation I have, like the best marketing phrase in the world, enter the conversation that's already going on in their mind.

That's exactly what you do. Yes. ~Yeah. ~ Thank you so much. That was super helpful.

Buzzing.

Toby Goodman: Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please give it a five star review and share it with someone you think it would help. If you are a business owner considering podcasting, or you are not getting the results you wanted from the podcast you have, I've got more episodes, a bestselling book, narrow Podcasting and Profitable Pod Method Skill Sessions, all designed to help you where you are right now.

For all of that and how I can support your business, head over to narrow podcasting.com