Good design isn’t something you look at. It’s something you live in.

We sit down with James Goodlet from Altereco Design to talk about what “good design” actually means in the real world, and what a proper pre-construction process looks like when it’s done properly.

We get into why comfort is more than temperature, how designers extract the details that shape the lived experience, and why due diligence and risk management need to happen before anyone starts drawing. We also break down why James brings builders in early, how he thinks about budgeting versus estimating versus contract, and why clients need clarity on exclusions and allowances instead of getting buried in noise.

We talk contingency versus inflation, the feedback loop between builders and design teams that improves outcomes over time, and a simple practical fix for smoother pre-con. Whiteboard the whole timeline, agree on milestones, and make sure everyone knows who owns what.

CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 Introduction

01:27 Meet James Goodlet

02:16 Good Design Is Seen Or Felt?

03:00 Comfort Beyond Temperature (Hempcrete House)

04:12 What Comfort Actually Includes (Sound, Air, Light)

07:08 James’ Path Into Design

11:25 Why “Alter Eco” And Sustainability

12:52 Pro Clima Detail Library

14:00 Alignment First: The Real Start Of Design

17:21 The Client Questionnaire (Sleep, Routines, Storage)

21:46 Due Diligence Before Sketching

28:10 Choosing Builders Based On Fit

37:00 Budgeting vs Estimating vs Contract

42:45 Contingency And Inflation

48:22 How Designers Read Trade Breakdowns

49:00 The Feedback Loop With Interiors

Our Sponsors:

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Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

We, uh, joined, um- We're

at the Pro Climba Studios

… Mobile Pro Climba

Studios again Yeah, so Pro Climba, major sponsor.

But we today have, we've had Claire from Alter Eco on before.

She's actually one of our first guests.

But we got- Yeah … we got the head honcho.

So, um, this is continuing on from our, uh, I guess pre-construction series.

And, you know, we've had

Ca- D- Dr. Cam, we've had Brad, you and I have had caught up, um- A number of times

… on a couple of, couple of topics.

Uh, and today we thought it'd, I guess, be best to bring in a designer.

Yeah, so James, Olyslagers Design.

They have a reasonable kind of place in the whole

pre-construction process, I guess.

And it's probably for someone I know pre-construction with

more than any other designer.

I, and you know, here's a fun fact

He designed a house on Grand Designs.

Did you know that?

I did know that.

But here's another fun fact.

Do you know how I first got to know who you were, was

listening to you on a podcast.

Oh, dear.

And I think I then reached out straight away and I said, "Hey, I think we should

work together." This was years ago.

It was like 2021 or something.

It was a long time ago.

It

was a long time

ago.

I've been waiting a long time for an invite, haven't I?

You're like the one of the easiest gets to get on, so it

was like, "We'll just get you."

We'll kick him down the road.

Is that, is that an insult?

No, we're like, oh, we need to fill something.

I'll just get James

in.

No, because it's like we kind of also had that we wanted, we didn't want to

use those type of guests very early on as like disposable guests when

we didn't know what we were doing.

Mm-hmm.

And we didn't have any purpose behind a conversation.

I've got a, I've got a good question to start off with.

Can we, can we go?

Yeah, go for it.

Why is good design important?

Oh, it all starts with good design, doesn't it?

Hmm.

Why is it important though?

Why can't we just draw and just…

That's all they do though, don't they?

Lines on paper.

Lines on paper.

You didn't work out that box cutter, mate.

Come on.

It's just lines on paper.

Oh, don't talk to me about box cut- box cutters.

Yeah.

Why, why is good design important?

Like what, what, what is the value in our everyday life of like good design?

Like…

It helps create how you've… Well, it nurtures the environment that you- Hmm

you're living in.

Like it is the, the essence of how we live.

Like we know the stats about how long we, how much time we spend indoors.

Yeah.

You picture how you would feel in one space compared to another if it was

done differently in any particular way.

Do you think that good design is seen or good design is felt?

Uh, seeing is just one of the senses that contributes to it.

Yeah

But felt

is- Felt is way more.

After living in one of your homes, I can tell you it's felt.

Yeah

Every day of the week.

Yeah.

I, I, I, and it's, I guess it's loaded 'cause I know

what the answer is in my mind.

Yeah.

Because I think aesthetics is one thing, but, like, y- you could live in the

most beautifully aesthetic home- Mm-hmm

and it'd be fucking horrible to live in.

Mm-hmm.

It's like all those ones that have won all those architecture awards, aren't they?

Oh, Matt, you fucking love

fucking with me.

Like I've done- I've done a lot of houses, right?

Yeah.

Um, and then I feel that, I'll give you context right now.

We're staying up in, uh, Lineville, in the hempcrete house.

Oh, did you come down from Lineville today?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh- So- … I saw

you were staying up

there.

Yeah … yeah, we're still friends with our client- Yeah, yeah,

yeah … from five years ago.

Yeah.

Um, and that is a hempcrete house, um, that just sits on a hill

on a little farm in Lineville.

Now, it's middle of winter, right?

It is fresh.

It hasn't got above 10 degrees there.

Um- And it's

probably wet

and damp and- For the two weeks we've been there.

It's flogging it down that, uh- Yeah … this last couple of weeks.

Yeah.

Um, but, like- Like we've built our house, and we love our house, and

the feeling that we have within that.

We have a tree canopy outlook and so forth.

But when you go into this house, it's a completely different site,

completely different environment.

' Cause we're right in the middle of a paddock, isn't it?

Like-

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, it's established gardens and stuff around it now.

It doesn't look as barren as it did when the house was first done.

But the feeling inside that house, I, I…

Acoustically, uh, all, all of those, you know, senses that we

have, it's ju- it just works.

It just works really well.

Do, do you think

it's the density of the hemp?

Yeah.

No, I think- Yeah … that's a part of it.

Yeah.

Like, it's a slab on a ground in a cold environment- Mm … and it's

obviously decoupled, and it is amazing.

I'm walking around barefoot in there.

So this

is a good starting point because we all talk about comfort.

We've digressed already.

No, no, but we talk about comfort as everyone thinks, "Oh, a comfortable

home is something firmly comfortable."

Yeah.

That is, like, the easiest one to tick of a box, but there's also sound,

vibrations, there's, there's odors, there's air quality, and there is light.

Yeah.

So they all contribute back to- Yeah … what we're talking about, good design.

Wi- without a doubt, they all play a part in it.

Um, I think as far as the process of designing that space, like, we all

need to understand movement, and, and function, and different functions, and

how they all connect, and that is good design and experience definitely- Mm

to understand how that all works.

But in this particular house, for a couple to live in and get that sight

and connection working, it, yeah, I just… We're, we're in there, and we're

just like, "This is cool." We really

enjoy it.

Front, front, front, front page of Sanctuary, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do, do you think- I think, I think our hempcrete house was, like, way

in the back of that particular, uh, episode, but whatever.

Yeah, I was, I was surprised, uh, to see it on the cover of it.

Anna was- I'm not.

I'm- … Anna was there on our- Do you know why, do you know why I'm not?

Yeah.

Because-

It looks fucking cool

… it, n- not only does it look cool, and this is what I actually

love about Sanctuary Magazine, they're actually putting… And big

shout-out to Anna and the team there.

Mm. They're putting homes on there that are not only aspirational, but they're

also achievable- Yeah … in my opinion.

I think that- Mm … particular house, if you… Okay, you, let's compare

the hempcrete house that we built and the hempcrete house that you

guys designed and your owners built.

Yeah.

Two different buildings.

The one that we built- It's also- … is, I don't feel is

achievable for the broader community.

Yeah.

And it also demonstrates a response to the brief-

Yep

… which was only for two people to live in.

Yeah.

So they've got a separate shed with a little studio in it for their woofers and

stuff like that, or, or guests to stay in.

Yeah.

So it's just for them.

Yeah.

You know, um, so- It's literally,

literally a one-bedroom house

… yeah, or one mezzanine

Yeah.

Wow.

So it's a conversation I'm just having with them at the moment

about aging in place, and whether- Ah … a ground floor bedroom needs

to happen at some point in time.

Yeah.

Yeah, int- interesting.

Um-

It's long way to the toilet in the dark.

Yeah.

So where, where does

this- 'Cause it's outside or… I don't know.

You gotta come down the mezzanine.

It's the old outhouse.

Yeah.

Yeah, see I, I love the idea of a mezzanine.

But the volume in there is

tremendous.

I fully meant to say I love the idea of an outhouse.

No.

I was

like- Dude, you

know- … I'm funny in

winter

… dude, you know what?

We have, I was having this conversation with some friends the other day, that

we've, we've been in our house now for two and a half years, and before we had

this most amazingly luxurious laundry.

Huge bench, about as long as this table, where you unfold, you know, fold

all your laundry there, and I was…

It was a really nice space to live in.

I now have to go outside on the south-facing side of the house.

It is cold, and dark, and gloomy, and I go into this little, like, toilet

block style room to do the laundry, and Lucy and I fucking hate it.

So where did it start for you?

You, you did… Have I got this right?

You did an architect degree but never finished it, is that right?

Yeah, so unconventional journey.

Didn't really, uh, do that well in, uh, high school grades, I

guess, to get into anything, even though I was pressured from my mum.

But I grew up on the coast, and I was just enjoying life.

Uh- … full ahead in cricket and then just, yeah, surfing,

and just didn't really care.

Then it came to the crunch, going to uni, and, uh-

Where'd you grow up?

In Apollo Bay.

Oh, so down, well, a little bit further- Yeah … around than where you are now.

Mm. But yeah, down

the coast.

Yeah, I was a kid in primary school in Northcote, actually.

Yeah.

Um, and- Fun fact, I just thought of this when I was on the way here navigating.

We were living on Westgarth Street-

Oh, yeah

… as a kid in Northcote, and my mum used to work on Westgarth Street in North Fitzroy.

Mm. Oh.

I'm like, "I wonder where the building was that she was in." I just remember as a kid

that she li- Do you reckon it's this one?

… lived in one.

It'd have to be one of these ones across the road.

They're all old.

Well, it was for, like, a, um, like, you know, a prop, um- Yeah,

okay … stage building company- Yep … whatever they call themselves.

Anyway.

So you did a architecture degree?

Nah, then I was like, uh… I actually did a year of engineering-

Oh, okay … mechanical engineering.

Yep.

I hated it.

Six weeks in I was just like- Not for me

not even really mentally rocking up, 'cause it just wasn't my thing.

Took some time to think about what I wanted to do and, um,

yeah, went into building design.

Yep.

'Cause I'd, I'd spent all of my, uh, I guess, you know, high school jobs

was working in family construction, so uncles, grandfather, dad, all in

building, so that's what I wanted.

Made

sense.

It made sense, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And I sort of had this in, in this in my mind, like, I don't want to be on

the tools, but design and construct was really appealing to me at the time-

Yeah … in the '90s for some reason.

Anyway, started building design.

Uh, got out of that, and I got a job with an architect in Elsternwick,

and he was, uh, his primary work was converting factories into residential.

So we'd just do all these really unique builds- Yeah … of, uh, butter factories

and- That's cool … old dairies- That's awesome … and stuff like that.

I

actually got one of them now to turn that into a passive house.

Yeah.

Oh, that's sick.

And it, it was really interesting stuff.

It'll be a box in a box.

It was back when they were doing, um, shells, like they would do

apartment shells and just- Yeah

divvy it up and then sell them off with nothing in it.

Yeah.

Um, but he was a master at working spaces and tight spaces, and then

I just learnt heaps from him, being right next to him in his small

practice, just how to make stuff work.

Yeah, okay.

And that's when I was like-

Enough-ness.

Yeah, yeah, and that's when I was like, "Okay, now I know what I want to do."

Yeah.

I just want my own little practice that I can just run like this.

And you just pretty much went straight, straight into opening

your own practice as Alter Eco?

So I went to architecture, did second and third year based on my experience,

and then I was like, "I've got the itch now." I was, like, mid-20s Took off

overseas Came back three years later.

Came back-

Where'd you go?

Where'd you

go?

Uh, first stop was Canada, and that's where I met Claire.

I met my wife in Canada as well.

In the snow?

Yep.

Yeah, same.

Yeah.

Whereabouts?

Fernie.

I was in Whistler.

There you go.

Yeah.

That's where a lot of love starts.

Cute.

It's very cute, isn't it?

Um, yeah, and then we traveled together and, uh, yeah, anyway, just, uh, didn't

end up coming back here for a few years.

And then when I did, uh, I just landed on my feet, got some work.

Went to Sydney for 18 months.

So I just never went back and finished, uh, degree.

And this is the

first time Claire would've come here too?

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

So, and then it just started picking up little jobs, and I was doing

them on the dining table to then quitting and just working on my

own.

Love it.

Yeah.

And was your original business Alter Eco Design?

From the start.

Oh.

100%. I didn't know if you had, like, some weird name, like everyone starts out.

You, you get stubby holders to start with too.

So what's the-

It's like the first thing you get … what's the, um, what's

the idea about behind the name?

Well, it's a play on words-

Yeah

… ob- obviously.

Yes.

But there

was- It's a chocolate company too.

Yeah.

I've looked it up.

I'm pretty sure I beat them.

Yeah.

It's 'cause I've- I've been around a while, yeah … amount, amount of

times I've typed in your website, and it's chocolate, I was like,

"Ooh, I would like some right now."

It is good chocolate, so yeah.

Um-

Are you, do you have to say that legally now to keep the name?

No, I wouldn't mind- … uh, doing, doing some sort of kickback with them.

Do a collaboration.

Do a collab, yeah.

Um-

Look, it's like I wanted to be a, you know, sustainable designer

at the time- Yep … right?

But having the conversation with clients at the time was not normal.

It was awkward.

Mm. And it was, and it wasn't… And I guess sustainability to me at the time

was probably a little bit more different, and it was me, like, loving building

with natural materials- Yep … and working with timber and all that sort

of stuff, that I was more focused on those things, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

But as it's evolved, it took time before I said, "Nah, this is just how I do it."

That's a common story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think most people, they s- when they get to sustainability, they say

it, but we don't know what it means.

We just, we all green wash to kinda get, where to where we wanna get to now.

Yeah.

And I think what- Like, definitely that was our story

I, I was 100% that's my story.

It, you know, it wasn't until I met Sven and he goes, "Oh, you should look at,

into Passive House." And I'm like- Mm … "Okay, well now I've got something to

kind of, I've got more of- Define it … a north star- Mm … that I can define my-

Yeah … the type of buildings on." And sustainability now has, like, it's become

more than just building a Passive House.

Mm. It's then the choices around materiality and all

that kind of stuff, so.

Mm. Hey, Mattie, I've been talking to a few people recently, and they're

like, "You know what? You've been building with Pro- Proclima for years.

Like, how do we get to where you are?"

So we all started at level zero at one point, and we got there.

But one of the things that Proclima have on their website is they have

a library of so many details, from wall to roof to subfloor to window

assemblies, for multiple different windows, on how to use their product

and install it correctly, and is one of the, the best resources that you can

find online to learn how to do this.

And if you're an architect and you're not sure how to draw something, they've

probably got the answer already.

And I think about, you know, 2018,

2019, when we f- we, we first started getting into this, we had to trawl

through all kinds of different documents.

We had to

make it up.

We,

well, we had to make it up.

It's all there for

you.

Yeah.

The answers are free now.

And social media's great, there's so many awesome videos and content

out there, but the ultimate source of truth is the Proclima website.

They have every single detail that you can imagine.

And you know what?

If they don't have it, you can email them and they'll help you solve it.

Damn right.

So use Proclima, proclima.com.au, if you need to reach out to them.

Hey, um, so we talk about good design, and- Yeah … and good design, you

know, just doesn't happen immediately.

You don't just draw lines on paper and bang, there it is.

Mm-hmm.

What's your process?

'Cause I know it's not just, "Well, let's design something that looks cool."

Mm-hmm.

What is the process when someone first gets in contact with you, and

then how do you end up with, like, a beautiful home like the one in Glenline?

Mm. Like, what d- what does that journey look like?

It's a long journey.

I know it's a long journey, I know.

But try and keep it to about 15 or 20 minutes.

Nup,

but apart from, like, um, I guess alignment-

Yep

… with, with those people- Yep … is, is, is key.

So Clare does a lot of work in the background to make sure that that-

Yep … clearly-

Clare's the brains … yeah, she's the gatekeeper.

Yeah.

Right?

I like that.

Because, you know, we wanna enjoy the process as well.

It's a long journey.

It's critical that we- Have, you know, a level of enjoyment with these

people- Yeah … on, a- along the way.

You know?

Everyone… There's different types of people, but I'm talking about n-

we don't want to be stressed by, or in awkward situations from the start, um-

And 'cause y- I'd say that you guys are very invested in the client.

Like, you take it- Oh, mate … like, you guys take it very personally, each

design, to a degree that I haven't seen before, and even with our own house.

So you, like, of the amount of times I've seen Claire Crowley get excited

when they, the- gets to build.

Like, she's so excited- Yeah, yeah … for them.

Yeah.

Like, all your handover, and she's, like, got a tear.

Like, she- Yeah … it's a, it's a genuine thing.

You can't fake that.

Yeah.

Um, and that, I still remember was at the first job I did

with you when that was closed.

Like, that's weird, and then I walked away.

I was like, "No, no, no, that's why I like this."

Yeah.

She's good at celebrating the small moments.

Yeah.

Like this morning, an email came through.

Uh, the building surveyor said, "All right, we're going to the

BPC for the building permit."

Oh,

dang.

And I'm like, "Yes." But beforehand, I would've gone, "All right, sweet."

Next one.

File that one, you know?

But, um, got to celebrate those small wins.

Definitely.

Particularly now, so hard to get- Oh, very.

… things started.

Um- So, so there's, there's the alignment piece with clients, which-

100% … I think is really valuable.

Yeah, so let's say that alignment works and fees align and so forth, and, and

that's all okay, and then we get to the point where we're like, "Okay,

let's, let's, let's start," right?

This is, like, the hardest part of Taite your job, though, this next step.

Look, it depends really about whether there's an alignment

on budget and brief first.

And first- Is

there ever?

Yeah, some p- some are-

It's getting better.

It doesn't mean it's not hard.

It's a conversation that needs to be had.

And so sometimes my first workshop with them is literally around this

alignment, and it can be a misalignment between them as a couple, if there's

a couple.

Yeah.

But you're, you're also very good at having that conversation and also

not afraid to walk away at a job knowing what it's gonna end up being.

You'll happily go, "No, no, no, I know you can't do that."

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I think that's one thing you're extremely good about is, um… And I would

say probably the amount of times where you have heard of other jobs that went

ahead with another architect, doesn't get built because the budget that it come in

on was what you told them, and all of a sudden you knew they couldn't afford it.

Yeah.

And you would've- And

a similar story with builders as well.

Yeah.

You'd be the same in- Yeah … in that kind of sense.

You're like, "Oh."

Yeah.

" I don't

want- Good luck

… that battle." Yeah.

Yeah.

If you're gonna go off on the, on that foot early.

Yeah.

So, so you… Yeah.

So the, the question I've asked you this many times is, like,

client's given you a brief.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you've got to put that pen to paper at some point.

Mm-hmm.

Like, what do you do?

You

got to- Like, where do you start?

I don't even know how fucking, every site creates its own

opportunities and constraints.

Yeah.

You need to really know those and have that in your head.

Um-

What are some of the questions you ask your clients?

'Cause I'm sure you've got like a, a, a form that,

that- Yeah, it's a quite a form.

Yeah.

Can I, can I actually, can I actually answer this one for you,

having filled it out before you?

You've done

it.

So, yeah, I've done it.

So it was a Google form, and I remember going to Nicole, like,

"Why the fuck are we doing this?"

And I was seriously like, "Why do they wanna know how we sleep?" And then it

all started to make sense when you're handing that first piece of paper because

you had just extracted, and we're talking about systems a lot at the moment.

Yeah.

They had extracted every little piece of information out of Nicole and I that I

wouldn't even have thought was relevant.

Give me, give me some more

examples.

So how you sleep.

How you sleep.

You may just do a sleep study or survey.

So, yeah, like if you're- Sleep survey … if,

if you're a bear or a lion or-

Yeah.

That's it.

That's right … you know the, you know the different- No.

So, okay.

So there's, there's different types of, like your, um- Just y- you as a

person, your, your body clock- Yeah

may work differently from your partner's Yeah, definitely.

And so you'll be out of sync with how you sleep.

Yeah.

One goes to bed later- Yeah … sleeps in more, whatever.

And now I find that good information because if you've got someone that's

getting up a couple of hours before someone else, then where the ensuite

is and how that works is- Yeah

probably pretty important.

Yeah.

And how the lights come on when the robes-

Yeah,

yeah, yeah … are put

away.

Yeah, don't put the bed

next to the coffee machine.

All these kind of things, like right- Yeah, yeah, yeah … that's, they're cues.

Yeah, yeah.

If that makes sense.

And, and, and you're not going to be able to, you're not able to

capture everything, like of all the-

No, but it's also good conversations to work out what to weight

with them and not how much not.

It, it, it honestly, I was… What, so what it's in turn done, say four or

five years down the track, is I don't question design choices anymore because

I don't know the reason behind why something is there in a certain place.

Yeah.

Because o- originally we're like, "That's stupid. Why would

you have the ensuite there?"

I don't know-

Mm

… why.

There might be a reason why.

Yeah.

As a builder, I think that's something I've taken away of having

built my own house, and I've learned that there's, there's usually

a reason why behind most design considerations- Yeah … or, or choices.

Which is where, which is why good design and to get it right is really hard.

Yeah.

And I think that's where builders go, and I'll ask the question J-

to James later on, but I think that's one of the biggest thing the

builders do wrong is they substitute or change things within the design.

It's not our responsibility to do that.

No.

Um- Mm … and like the, you asked, like it was questions

like, "How do you get around?

Do you ride a bike?

Do you go surfing?

What, what sports do you play?

What are your hobbies?" Because there's obviously- Who, who

does the cooking-

Yeah.

How do you cook … and what, what those kind of

roles you

t- yeah.

What do you cook?

Mm. Like, 'cause it, it ends up coming out in the whole conversation

of like, well, I can only assume if I have a bike, a surfboard,

and um, like where do I store it?

How do I use it?

Yeah.

Your

stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like your stuff.

And um-

Yeah, so all, all of that information's been gathered even before you've

even drawn anything on the page.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it was, it was insane.

But it's not necessarily in a format that puts itself on paper, but it

creates other conversations- Yeah

to understand hierarchy and the importance- Yeah … of these things.

But you ref- we referred back to it, I think, during our design multiple times.

It does

help.

Yeah.

Like we, Nicole and I were like, "Oh, what did we tell them? Oh

yeah, we actually told them that." Mm. Like you don't, you, 'cause you

forget what you've told them- Mm

'cause you're filling it out and you're talking and, and then you'll

be like, "Why did we ask that?

Why is that there?" And like go, "Hmm, I don't think we had that."

And you're like, "Oh no, that's exactly what we told them to do."

Yeah.

Mm. Awesome.

And does it feel, like for someone who's gone through that process, Matt, and now

living in the home, like does it feel like that was all relevant and that was

worthwhile going through that process?

Oh, it, it's sort of hard to comment because like what if it didn't?

Like th- think of the opposite side, so it just feels home to me.

' Cause I, I, I've, I've been in your home.

Um, I think I might've seen it on a, was it on a TV show?

Yeah.

I don't know if you've seen the TV show.

No, okay.

What TV show was it?

I think it might have been a TV show.

Um, I just remember it being quite warm and it was cold outside.

Yeah.

Don't know how.

So yeah,

it actually was freezing the day you came

over.

Yeah, it was.

But- But like if, if, it, there's a lot, I walk into that home and

I'm like, "Okay, this makes sense." Like, you know when you walk into

somewhere and design just makes sense?

Like, I understand why that's there.

Might not be how I would want it, but I can see how these guys

are living and moving through

their house.

We also had so, so many constraints with my house.

Mm. Like it was bu- building on three boundaries.

Yeah.

So there's not, there's not much you can do.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But it, it, it just, it, it, it was, it was almost like if you really

want to… I feel like I'm a better builder having gone through a whole

design process myself from start to finish to understand how we get there.

Like- Yeah … I understand the process.

And, and my question to James later on will be like, who, what

is everyone's responsibilities in this pre-construction phase?

Mm. Because I feel like from doing that myself, I've got a, a behind-the-scenes

view of like how it, how it works.

Yep.

Mm. So then if, if we're sort of fast-forwarding through that

stuff, like at what point do you st- and what information do you

have before you start sketching?

Like, you know, do you understand their level of

performance?

Oh, due diligence is key, right?

Yeah.

So obviously survey.

Are the clients

fuckwits?

Yeah.

Like,

you know-

Yeah

… property civil plan.

You've already, you've already, the alignment piece

is done by Claire before you.

Easements and all those, all those kind of things.

They all have to be known and understood, right?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, so-

Oh, so many people don't, though.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, I know one story right now, and there's a combined drain, and

I know, I know I shouldn't know this, because I was told, and I'll

s- I'm not going to say who it was.

Oh, jeez, go on.

The architect, there's a combined drain.

They're building over it, and it's been raised by the client.

It's not one of your jobs, not one of my jobs actually either, and the architect

goes, "That's not our problem. That's a builder's problem when they get on site."

Oof.

Oh, my God.

I've suspended a deck over a combined drain before, but even that was a process.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they just like, "It's the builder's site, builder's job when

they get on site to work that out."

Whoa.

That was literally their words.

If you're a builder out there, if you're not doing your own site

inspections and cameraing the drains, you are a fucking moron.

Yeah, but it, but this, this is even before like, they had the,

the fact that they know about it- Yeah, no, it's fucked if

you're a designer out there and

you're not look- Yeah, they, yeah, like-

looking

into that.

Yeah, yeah.

That's their problems later on.

It's,

it's creating… Don't kick those cans down the road, right?

Absolutely not.

We, we, we, uh, uh, digressing slightly, we-

You're really good at not that, that, at that skill.

It's like- Mm … let's do that conversation now.

I'd say this, you say that, and now knowing you for so long, I'd say

it's one of your best traits, just like, "Let's deal with that now.

Let's don't kick it down the road later." Yeah.

I think that's probably through this journey-

Yeah,

yeah, yeah Looking at where the risk is on that particular project.

And so, yeah, a lot of clients, it's the brief and budget alignment,

but you might be in a heritage overlay or something like that.

Mm. And, um, they're risks, right, that, that, that we need to mitigate.

And it's like when are we dealing with which risk-

Yeah

… in what order, or when in the process does it filter in?

Um, yeah, I think they're all- Yeah … all really important.

Yeah.

So- So there's all this due diligent piece that you go through, and then,

um, and then you start designing and you've got a number, and then you hit

it out of the park the first time?

Oh, every time.

From a budget first design point of view?

Probably not, because my ethos is to progressively keep developing the design.

Yes.

Right?

So if I feel like I'm hitting a risky point, and I don't understand about the

pricing part of, "Ah, shit, I've got all these retaining walls and cart-" Yeah

… "all right, we need a builder now."

Yeah.

Okay?

Yeah.

And e- and that's even in sketch stage.

Yeah.

If, if, if I feel a lack of know- like I'm pretty good with my knowledge and

stuff, but I don't know how to price it.

You know what you don't know.

Yeah.

Mm.

So it's time to get someone in who does, right?

Yeah.

'Cause I have no idea what the implications of this cut is in this soil

type when the drainage is down there and-

Yeah

w- what, what are we budgeting here?

Yeah.

200 grand for this job?

Or, or, or, you know, we've got some slight fall here.

Is it a slab on ground or do we put it on s- stumps and bearers?

Mm-hmm.

Like there's all these- Mm-hmm … kinds of things that probably need to

have a bit of a builder's brain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the pros and cons of either- Yeah

pathway, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, there is sometimes it's time to get a builder involved

in that sketch.

And, and at this point- I'd say all the time … and, and I say at this,

at this point though, have you given the, the client two or three concepts

of what their house might look like?

Yes.

In a, in a way.

It might be variants of the same thing- Yeah … if that makes

sense, within those constraints.

Yeah

Um-

' Cause I think I remember you showing us a few concepts.

The reason why I ask this question is 'cause I'm trying to spell out to

builders and try give them an hour of learning that how you will think

through for where it starts to, to…

When they get the plan.

Yeah.

So the client's usually f- you've sh- you've designed three or four designs,

roughly by hand sketch, that will work on their property for orientation, for

performance, of what you know best.

Mm-hmm.

No form or anything probably yet- Mm-hmm … as a floor plan, and then the client

will go, "Ooh, we like that layout the most," or, "We like the combination of

these two, let's kind of combine it."

I

like to be as loose-

Yeah

… as i- initially.

Yeah, like very- Like and I like to actually have tracing paper with them to-

Yeah, yeah … to actually- I remember that, yeah

Yeah, yeah.

And you remember you gave, you gave us some tracing paper.

Yeah, so you like to be, like, quite, like, quite fluid at that point.

Yeah, it has to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then as, as some of those elements are locked in, then the

other things can be worked around that, if that, if that makes sense.

It's probably the most fun part of the whole design.

I actually enjoyed that part the most.

Mm. It's actually kind of cool.

The floor plan?

Yeah, 'cause you kind of, you start with something, and I still remember this to

this day, is like we both would have a very good idea of what a floor plan would

look like, would feel like, and- Mm-hmm

and I remember giving it to James and going, "This is what we've come up with."

I don't know if even you remember this.

And it w- and you go, "Yeah, it's pretty good." And then about two

weeks later he shows me, "Here you go.

He's let me do my fucking job."

Do you know, so I've only ever done it once on a smaller

project, um, extension work.

It was so

much better than what we came up with too,

by the way.

Well, I had an idea.

I went to Sven from AXA and I said- Mm … "Oh, this is what I'm thinking."

He's like, "Oh, that's cute." And then next minute he's like, "This

is what we're gonna do." Yeah.

And I'm just like, "Okay, I'll let you do your job now." Yeah.

"I'll just shut up."

And that's, but everything that, everything that he had drawn

and taken into account in that brief, it just made sense somehow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it

can be a client's way of communicating their brief.

Yeah, true.

If that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah.

And- So you could still have the sum of the parts- Yeah … but

it's just reconfigurated

again.

And the con- critiquing goes both ways.

Yeah.

If that makes sense.

Yeah.

Like I would prefer not to see someone's plan so I can add about it myself.

Yeah.

But if somebody does bring that, I'm more so looking at it as to

what it is that they're actually trying to communicate to me-

Yeah, like, "Oh, we want three bedrooms" and they kind of want

them all together maybe or like-

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, when clients, you know, if they're coming to me first and they

go, "I've got a floor plan, do you want me to send it over?" I'm like, "That's

really great that you're really thinking about that now- Mm-hmm … but let's

let the design team do their job." Hmm.

Yeah.

Because I don't wanna start leading you down a path that- Mm-hmm

may or may not work.

That's not my job.

Mm-hmm.

That's not my role.

That's the design team's role.

Mm-hmm.

So then what?

So you-

Oh, we're back into… Are we going back into pre-con bit or-

No, no, but this, this, yeah, yeah.

So you- We're going more deeper.

Pre-con … but I just wanted to give context on how you get

to that part with the builder.

You s- you interview a few builders, client picks the builder.

Yep.

So I just want to give the context behind how you got there, 'cause I

think it's really important that we as builders know the effort that has

gone i- to that point right there.

Yeah.

So we'll put some builders forward that we think- Yeah, yeah

you sh- they should chat with.

Yeah.

Right?

And then, um, normally they'll take that advice and we

encourage them to choose one.

What happens if they don't?

I've never… I see this one.

Um-

They just go, "I've got this, I've got John from around the

corner." Are you like, "Oh, fuck"?

Well, then l- let's chat with John, that's fine.

Yeah.

But I, w- then I really encourage that we chat with these other two over here-

Yeah

… or three or whatever, 'cause I just want

you to- Carlin, Carlin and Sanko.

Yeah.

Yeah, we wanna know what that's like, what good might look like.

Yeah, but it's just all so different.

Yeah.

And the way they would approach it might be different-

Yeah

if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and I don't mind it being broadened.

I don't mind it being someone I don't know.

Like, I- Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah.

There is, there is a, there is… Not every builder is right for every job.

No, no.

No, no.

Absolutely not.

Like, I'd, I'd… Someone inquire the other day about a inner-city

one in North Melbourne, and they're asking me a question.

I'm like, "I'm gonna tell you what, it's North Melbourne or Port Melbourne. Matt

Carlin is much better set up for this." So they may reach out to you, by the way.

Um, I just looked and I'm like, "I don't want, I don't want to

touch that." Mm. "It's not… I'm not geared for that project."

Yeah, yeah.

But it's, I think it…

But it's not even just the location.

Like, sometimes we'll look at a project and go, "I just know that…"

Like Brad's one, for example, like, uh, that he's got right now.

Oh, yeah.

It's the amount of detail and time that one person needs.

Like, "I can't give you that." Hmm.

"My business is not set up for you to do that and it's gonna cost you a fortune."

Brad is-

We're the same.

We have to be able to say no.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, we, we had a passive house inquiry recently and I was like, "Oh, cool.

Passive house." And then, uh, "We're really keen on, uh, a

mock Federation facade." Hmm.

I'm

like, "Oh, okay,

yeah." Yeah.

" I don't want to deal with that." Yeah.

It's like, I don't believe in it, right?

You have to get proportion and materials and everything right.

And then, and

then it's just- Federation.

Why, why, why a Federation-

I didn't need them.

They, they- Didn't need that farm

… it's what they wanna

do.

But it's just like the, you, you need to be able to say no as well,

what, for what- Yeah, yeah, yeah

doesn't work- Okay … or what's gonna be painful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

So- So it's qu- it's quite a lengthy process, even before you… I mean,

we haven't even gotten to, like, actually starting to design yet.

Mm. That, um, this is probably a question that I'm interested in.

Once you've got a floor plan, as you're designing a floor plan, and

you're kind of dialling that in, and I'm, you know, it's obvious that

you're designing for orientation and performance at the same time.

Mm. As you're designing it, are you, in your mind's eye, seeing how, like,

the actual 3D form is coming together?

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So as you're, as you've got a floor plan, you're actually sort of seeing,

okay, well, that's gonna be a bit of higher wall, and there's some angles

in the roof and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

Yeah.

And has that always been something you've been quite good at?

Or, or is it a, is it constantly evolving, that kind of style?

'Cause if I look at your homes, I feel like- Mm … it's got your style.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm like,

"Oh, that's an Alter Eco home."

Yeah.

It's interesting.

We're doing a, I'm doing a design at the moment, and it-

Federation

house?

Yeah.

Totally.

Victorian actually.

You can't, you can't really get an angle at it.

Like, it's a period building at the front.

It's a, it's a, it's a terrace.

And then at the back there's, it goes right through to the back

street, and there's, like, a-

That's the one you were doing on social media last night.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like a studio over the back, over the garage at the back.

But the actual house proper, you'll never get an angle at it.

So I'm like, "What am I gonna make this look like?" It's kind of irrelevant.

But it's all about the space, and what is it feeling like from the

inside itself, so that- Yeah, okay

I'm not being l- I'm not being led by what this looks like

for someone from the street.

Yeah, okay.

' Cause it's not relevant.

Like, it's-

It may be the back- It's different … facade a little bit, but, like,

ultimately- Yeah … it's like, well, if we do that on that wall, what

implications does it have with the height and the ceiling space, and-

It becomes a really good interiors project for

you guys.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm setting it up for the interior designer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so we then… So okay, so builder gets involved.

You're very, you've done that since I've ever known you.

Yeah.

Like, before this was cool.

Yeah.

Um, where do you think the- That's why I

reached out to you the first

time, actually.

Like, where, where, where do you think builders go wrong with this process?

Oh, that's a good question.

Um-

' Cause you work with a lot of different builders that do things a very different

way, and then you might get comfortable with, say, how I do something.

You know, a lot of projects- Mm-hmm … with Ned, you might get

comfortable with how he does it.

Mm-hmm.

And we also operate very similar.

Mm-hmm.

Like, where do we all go wrong?

It's not where you all go wrong, it's about pointing out some of

the things that some do well.

Yeah.

And it re- uh… okay, I'll start with where do they come into the project-

Yeah … and how broad is this figure to help us make the next decision- Yeah

if, if that makes sense.

You're talking about the range, the number that we're…

Okay, so let's say we're, we're building a team, right?

Mm-hmm.

The three most important people in this are the people paying the money.

Mm-hmm.

It's their house, right?

Yeah.

Mm. A builder to build it, and a designer-

Yeah

… to design it.

Or actually, can, can I just define what the designer does?

Sure.

' Cause some people- Are we, are we talking about, are we gonna talk

about roles and responsibilities?

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, yeah, let's jump to it 'cause that's my second question.

Let him, let him, let him answer his question.

Well, it's, it's sort of like setting this up.

Yeah.

Right?

So we're not only just designing it, we're being engaged as the lead consultant.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

I'm only a building designer.

I could just be engaged as a draftee.

Mm-hmm.

"Here's your plan, catch you later." Yeah.

But it's not how I run my business.

Yeah.

Like, we are here to lead the client on the journey through the project- Yeah

if that makes sense.

Um, so in then once we, you know, get the third leg to the, to the,

to the stool- Yeah … get the builder involved and we're all right.

Okay, what are the roles and responsibilities here?

Um, I think- When setting objectives, I guess for each of the parties, we

all want a successful project, right?

And a successful project for the client is what they- Yeah … looking at the end.

I think I've heard you on the podcast before, Hamish, say, you know, a builder

needs to be financially successful.

Yep.

Um, and then they're also looking for, you know, the next referral and so forth.

Mm-hmm.

An architect or a building designer also needs to be financially successful.

Yeah, there's

actually no different, yeah.

Um, and that is a difficult thing in, in, in practice these days.

Like, I don't know if you know much about what-

I've openly told you- A bit … you guys don't charge enough.

Yeah, I guess.

Everyone doesn't.

Yeah.

And I know our fees aren't cheap.

Like, you know, we're, we, we've got fees like a- an architect would, but we have an

extensive process that we go through- Yeah

from start to finish, if that makes sense.

There's

also so much work now.

And to give context to that, there is so much red tape and work that

needs to be done because of that.

Yeah.

Like-

We haven't loaded all of

that ourselves … yeah, yeah.

It, it's just because everything takes so much fucking time.

Yeah.

Like, your standard probably muscle memory response is like, how long

is it gonna take before on site?

Oh, it's 12 months if you're not going to council, it's anywhere above 18 months-

Yeah … if you've got council involved.

Yeah.

And, and that, that is ridiculous.

Yeah.

You c- if you would have a free flowing process-

Yeah

you could smash that time.

Yeah.

But I think, you know, yeah-

Also rely on clients to get back to you at the right time too.

Yeah.

Like a business like ours would be targeting 15% profit, you know?

But we don't have the turnover that a builder does either.

Yeah.

And to miss that mark is very easy to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, digressing a little bit- Yeah … but we want to be successful-

Yeah

… financially.

Um, but we also really want to be, uh, like enjoy the journey with the

client and builder, and then also just to see that lived experience

at the end- Mm … like we're seeing now- Yeah … in, in Lyonville.

And when you see, and when you bump into those old clients

or catch up with them- Yeah

or hear stories, that's brilliant.

Like that's, that's, that's gold.

Do you know what I mean?

We don't, we can't… I guess we're not- changing the industry.

Like, I've, I've sort of reduced my goals and ambitions, if you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And moderated how many projects I can do and how many people I can impact.

But, um, yeah, there, there are benefits that are- Just do

better.

Yeah.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, within, with what we can do.

Yeah, absolutely.

Hey, I'm about to go on a journey with systems and I'm working with

James from BizTech Guru, who, he was a guest on our podcast.

He was, and I've actually done a lot of work with James in the past,

and it has transformed my business from just being this classic

clusterfuck of a building company to a systems-orientated focused business.

And what is, from my understanding, it's all focused on builders, and-

Yep … we're going to be doing a live webinar with him coming up-

Yep … as part of this, and it's gonna be a big introduction to systems

and how it can improve your business.

And you know the beauty about it?

It is gonna be absolutely free.

Yeah.

So keep an eye out for the dates.

Uh, this is gonna be a really incredibly valuable workshop to not miss out on.

Yeah.

So either shoot us a DM, um, check the show notes, but we'll put a link

below here to show you how to sign up.

So- Cheers … make sure you sign up

Go back to the question.

What do builders do wrong?

Okay.

I think-

And you be brutally honest.

Yeah, I will.

So I think it's very difficult for a builder to… Let's just

say we're talking about… I, I go through this in three stages.

We're, we're budgeting.

Yep.

We're estimating, and then we're looking at a contract, right?

And so when we're just in that budgeting phase, it's broad, but we need to

know where our risks and so forth are.

Yeah.

And, and, and we're, all we're really trying to do is give the client enough

evidence to commit to more design and more evolution and more investigation

from a builder to get to the next point where we have an estimate.

And

that's-

With- … where we're at with, uh, the two projects are past that point now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But l- but reflecting on that and going through that process.

Yep.

And so once we get into the estimate part, I like to see the estimate

look like a format that's similar to what the tender would be like.

Yeah.

And the reason for that is I find that when all of those categories

aren't considered in some way, some of them get forgotten.

So this is a question- And that makes sense … we actually asked

Rick from Estimating Online, then your final contract price, should

we have that or should, should it just be this is 1.52 as per plan?

Like, do you, at that final price- Mm-hmm … sh- do we need to give you

the categories or should it be simple as like, this is a number as per plan,

as per spec, everything included?

Yeah, I think that'd be okay.

'Cause I think all the, a lot of the work- Yeah … is going

in in the estimate stage.

Yeah.

Do you know what?

I actually love that you've just said that.

Yeah.

And because you have not, you don't ha- you know, you're not privileged to that

last conversation we just had in here.

Yeah.

And what you've just said is almost identical- As in- … to

the process that Rick was saying and the process that we do It's

like the perfect follow on without you knowing- … of what we just spoke about.

Yeah.

It just like, literally is like, pew, you've just taken

everything you heard and gone…

It's just reiterated

it.

We, we, we need- Which, which is great … when it gets to the

point of the contract, that's the most stressful point for a client.

The noise needs to be taken away.

And so having 54 page bullet points of all these different inclusions

and blah, blah, blah- Agree.

I agree

… is not necessary.

They need to know what's not in it.

Yep.

Yeah.

That needs to be really clear.

And provisional sums and prime cost costs need to be listed out.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you can't, I've learnt one thing is you can't be trying

to still do value management o- once you're doing the contract.

You can't be doing two at once.

Agree.

I, I think that's probably a mistake I've made, is like you're still

trying to tie up little loose ends.

It's like, "Hey, let's start s- the contract as well." No.

Our, no- Yeah … our new process is, until you practically, you

almost sign like a pre-contractual agreement- Mm … that is the number.

Yep.

Now we will start the contract.

There's no point sending a draft contract, 'cause they're getting distracted.

Yeah.

Mm.

And they say- Just

been through that process where the client wants to get budget out, but they're not

giving us a fixed target to get it to.

Yeah.

The goalpost.

No, no.

And

so-

You know, if you're a client and you want- … the value

management stuff, we need a number.

Like, it's not just, "Oh, we need to take it down." Yeah.

It's like, we need a number and what are the things that we can't touch?

Mm-hmm.

Like-

Yeah, yeah.

A bit of- Oh, I don't know, just give us something.

A-

No, no, no, no, no.

True.

No.

Okay, great.

We'll take the kitchen out.

Yeah.

And I think-

' Cause there's 50 grand.

Done.

I think that- Oh, well, we need the

kitchen

… well, okay, well, we'll leave the kitchen in.

Kitchen.

Yeah, I reckon the-

Take the flooring out.

There's 70

grand Take the whole house out … the detailing in there, okay, the process

through this, I think you're right.

Mm. We need to be really clear about moving through particular stages.

'Cause- Once all of the estimating part's done and the, the eff- effectively this

is in, this is out and the, w- we know what we're getting, we need a clear shift

where you're moving towards getting your contract together- Yeah … and we're

mo- facilitating the building permit.

Yeah.

And all the last final-

Yeah, so- … bits and pieces for that … so for me, I like the process now.

It's like pro- like all documentation is completed, that means we can

do all our pricing and finalised.

"Hey, we wanna change one, two, three, three." Okay, RFI list.

James changes all his documentation.

We fix the pricing.

"Oh, we want to change two items." James finishes all, like you… Until it's

like literally all done, 'cause it's… Otherwise, what happens, everything gets

lost along the way, and it's annoying for everyone to slow it down, but things

get lost.

There's a s- there's a part of me that agrees and there's a part of me that

disagrees, because I've been on the other end of it- You're trying to go on site

where, where, where, where, where we're trying to dial everything

in and I'm like, you know what?

Let's just flag that, get a contract signed, and set up… W- we know

that these things in the contract need to be updated or sorry,

the plans need to be updated.

Let's sign a contract now.

Let's list all the things that we know are gonna change, and

these are just, you know- Within-

half

a dozen … w- within, within a, within reason.

If, so they, they- But,

but they're not gonna change the price or the- They

have to become a provisional sum or price item

… yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And they get reconciled at a point that you agree on.

Yeah.

A base stage or frame stage or whatever.

If, if

you're comfortable communicating with the client that they're

not influencing the price.

Correct.

Yeah.

That makes- And that's, and that's the, that's the biggest

point I'm trying to make.

Yeah.

Like, if we know that they're gonna change the price, well, it's gotta be

updated- Yeah … and we need to cost it.

' Cause I just want that, I just want that contract dot set,

that is matches everything.

The specs all match.

Everything is aligned.

It's not something like, "Oh, we've changed this tile or this tile,"

and kind of gets forgot along the way and then we're going to order

and like, what do we actually do?

Like- Yeah … I want it all completely tied off so the

contract becomes the Bible for us.

Yeah.

You know that what you have designed is what we've allowed for.

Yeah.

There's that three-way stool, stool, you haven't got an uneven

leg is- Yeah … like you're not, "Oh, what's happening here?" Yeah.

The clients to know exactly what they're getting for what they're paying, and

then anything from that point then black and white, that's not like, there's no,

"Oh, I thought we were getting this."

It's like, well, where in this documentation set did you

think you were getting that?

I think if we go back to that estimating process, and you've got all the

breakdowns- Yeah … and you might have provisionals in 'cause you've got limited

interiors info or engineering back or whatever and, and so to get to the

confident figure, work needs to be done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If that makes sense.

Um, and so while that work's happening, we might be then tracking to understand

are we cl- near budget or not?

Yeah.

And then, so I think, um, the further this estimate is out from the actual

build- The more fluid it's going to be- Yeah … or the more risk that's involved.

Yeah.

And I think there's two numbers that I think are in- important that not a lot of

people talk about, and that's contingency-

Mm

and inflation.

Yep.

Mm.

And they're two different numbers.

Yeah.

And I want them as two line items because we can have a conversation

about, "I have no interiors," or, "I have no engineering," that

contingency's gonna be a bit higher.

Do I have to- So

when, so when you say contingency, are you having that conversation

with the client or with the builder?

The three of us.

Okay.

So as a builder estimating in that, um, middle stage where we're giving them

much more detail, we might put a line in that says contingency- Mm … and we

might put a line in that says inflation.

Absolutely.

And, and, and that's like a- an allowance.

The, the pro- Exactly … the problem that I have with that is then they see

this high number and they freak out.

Yeah, but let's

not, let's- It's being honest.

The thing is being transparent is the hard part there, 'cause you're

doing the right thing by the client.

Yeah.

But you could say, "This, this contingency number will drop

if we can look at these items."

Yeah.

Yeah.

'Cause we're getting more confidence.

And really, the contingency on a project is within the ground and demolition.

Once you're at the ground and demolition, the, the contingency risk factor drops

from, say, a high to, like, a, a very low.

And the, the changes become the client's choice to change.

Well, I think, I think what you're talking about something different.

You're, you're talking about, you're talking about just a provisional

sum once you've gone to contract.

I- No … you're, you're talking about a line item- A design

contingency

Just a line item at estimate

to allow for- At estimate.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah

… things that aren't, aren't, uh, could be overlooked

or- You'll, you'll do it when you, when you go to construction.

Oh, okay.

Good idea.

'Cause I'd just say that that's a- Yeah

yeah, I, I wouldn't be putting a conting- a contractor contingency.

No, we

can't anyway.

Yeah.

No, no.

That's what I'm saying.

So yeah.

I thought, yeah, okay, that's actually a good idea.

I like it, that point

there.

Yeah.

Just, and you can set what that figure is based on what you

think the lack of information is.

Yeah.

It's just a risk profiling

in there.

Like 1%, 2%.

Yeah.

Now- Yeah … when it comes to the inflation, you know, what are we

tracking at, 4 or 5% or whatever?

But- Oh, I've got that done … we can u- we can use that information

on how far are we looking at, when are we looking at starting this?

Is it Q2 next year, Q3?

Yeah.

Do we have to still get through planning?

Is it- Yeah … like, how early are we getting you involved

to help us with numbers?

The bigger that, those contingencies are gonna be.

Yep,

yep.

And, and it w- you would think that the contingency drops the further

you- Yeah … further the design progresses- The closer you get

the more information we have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is what I was saying before.

Yeah.

At, at contract, you don't have a contingency.

Yeah.

To give you context on- This is ABS building construction output data.

So this is real life, quarter by quarter, um- On the ABS data.

So if you were to say hypothetically at the moment, March 2026 if you started,

you're at 161.1 and just say a year belo- before that, you'd sort of got your

price in March 2025, you're at 154.6.

So you have gone up- 6% … nearly seven, seven per- 7% in the

year as construction price.

That's Austra- that's ABS data.

So you can- Right,

and that's inflation.

No, that, no… Well, is it inflation?

I, I'm not an econ- economist.

I'd

be interested, 'cause that's in March, that's right when the bloody war started.

What's it,

what is it?

That's, that's why, that's why I wanted to

bring- What, what is it now?

So that's still, uh, the latest one wouldn't have come out just yet.

This is the most up to date.

So you can see quickly within a year how- Yeah … fast something could

go up that is a killer projects.

Go back, go back to COVID, and you wanna go back to March 2029, uh,

2019.

So that was 115.

We're now at 161, so you can see how much they've gone up.

You jump, you jump into the end of, or March 2020 or June

2022, you're sitting at 134.

So pretty quickly, quickly.

Mm. And the graph, you actually put in the graph, I've got in a graph on

my computer, and it starts to look so linear because it's gone up so fast now.

Yeah.

Like, you actually, unless you push it all back in- Mm … you

don't see the, the, the tick.

Mm.

Um, but that's, it's a good one.

The contingencies, I think, I think the inflation is one that we, what

I have in every, um, pricing guide that we give for the first estimate,

we just type in the current inflation rate, and I just Google it and go,

"Hey, at the moment, inflation as of this quarter, recently it was 3.61%."

If you think that your project is gonna be another year, allow that.

We also don't know what is gonna happen in the world.

There's a little orange man out there at the moment- I, I don't, I,

I- … that can click his fingers and who knows what the fuck's gonna go on.

I don't get as specific.

I don't get as specific, but I certainly say, "This is a number

that I'm giving you today.

This is a line in the sand." Today.

"And it could change in 30 days."

Yeah.

But the

inflation- But just be prepared for that.

So just about that communication I think is important.

We

just have a blurb, 'cause I want them to read it.

I want them to understand that, yeah, there's a thing called inflation.

And it's ironic because we all think it won't affect us.

Like, "Oh, my project won't be." Yeah, yeah.

My, I, it was, my same with my- myself with my house.

"Oh, the, the build costs won't affect me." Yeah, it fucking does.

Mm.

What I find interesting is when you look at those one or two pages of the

trade breakdowns and the subtotals of those, um, in general I can look at

those and, 'cause I see enough of them often enough that I can go, "Okay.

Oh, roofing's up on this.

What's, what's going on with this one?" Yeah.

Yeah.

Or identify these things that we could dig into a bit further, right?

Um, uh, but I… It's, it's interesting how you can go, "Oh, that seems about all

right. That seems about right." And then you look at the total and you're like

things are higher than it was last year or, you know- Death, death