Why do we put so much emotional stock and resources into 'leaders'? And what is that costing us politically?

Host Jessa McLean and Santiago Helou Quintero make the case that the focus and energy we spend on leaders, both our own and that of our opponents, is a detriment to the movement - a distraction from actual problems and policies to fix them. They discuss the trappings of playing to the leader vs. leader narrative, why they exist and how we can move away from these 'leadership cults' in politics.

All right, so today I wanted to talk about leadership called here with producer Santiago. I mean, I think

it's all this talk about Mike Shriner and Merritt Styles that had me thinking about it, but to be honest, I think

it's kind of just been egging at me for a while because I have been so guilty of falling into that leadership

called kind of mentality, and have since Fallen out of love with it, and now I can't stand to see it, so I just

wanted to explore that in terms of Canadian politics and how much deference we put into leaders, both our

own and the focus that we put on the opposition enemy, Right and the focus that we put on opposition leaders

as well, Did I call them enemies?

Uh, huh,

Anyway? We're trying not to be that black and white about our thinking anymore. However, yeah, I think we're

like just as guilty. I don't think it serves us well right, either in tactics or mentality, So you jumped

like you didn't object Santiago, So obviously you may be wanted to explore this as well. You've never been

in the leadership cult, Or you know, I say that, as I have Chegavera post Behind me, so I'll cop to that

right now.

No, I mean, I think it's kind of natural to have at some point fallen into that in one way or the other,

Who

and

was it?

I don't know. I mean, I mean, you can definitely say Burney was, but that that doesn't feel like you

know the worst thing, but I think it's more of just wanting

M.

somebody to save us. You know, wanting

Yeah,

to believe that somebody's just gonna come along and have all the answers, and just like single handedly

well, the power to fix everything. I think that's like just a deep desire for a lot of people. But

yeah, now Burney is now A good example.

But he is in a way like it still creates the same kind of problems Like you don't get off the hook for being

a Burne brother or whatever they like To the

But

monitor

the whole Burney

they

thing

attached

was the

it.

It was that it was the not me us of it that I loved. You know

Okay,

like I think like, that's what I'm saying. I don't think I fell into the leadership cult of it all,

because it was more of the movement of it all that I fell in

Yes,

love with too, and just Burney was the face of that movement I think I had, but now I definitely

think I have. I just can't think of off the top of my head to be, which is kind of. I mean, I think

that's a good thing. maybe, but

I mean, there's a case to be made to that, Ike. you're You're not the only one. I'm not the only one. It

seems like Canadian politics, Sin General just seems really focused on the leader, and if you've ever been a

part of any campaign, they tell you essentially, and it's even more so with a federal campaign that it's the national

campaign, that leadership campaign that really is going to make the difference in terms of vote count and poles

right, constantly pulling People on their preference for leader, even without asking them any kind of values based

questions. And that is somehow relevant, you know, and there's no doubt it's influenced elections. Like. Do

you think Truthoug would have been elected and been successful this many times if he wasn't so personable.

Um,

No, I mean, I've knocked on enough doors to know what people care about with elections And it's

They love his hair. They will say that at the door, won't they?

And then it's it's. It's the leadership right They don't, Because I've tried to engage people in conversations

at the R. on on policy on like more of like nuance details, and it really just comes down to the

leader. I mean, I remember when I was in grade twelve, My my politics teacher used to say that politicians

are elected based off the beer test, which is people vote for the person they would most want to have

a beer with an

Yeah, and that's probably

H,

how we market

M,

ourselves. You know. that's how the campaign shape up to right like it's all poured everything into the leader

to make them. it was the kinder gentler, Andrea. Right, and that like that obviously didn't work. But yeah, it

becomes like the go to strategy too, and I think that's what really turned me off right with sitting in

so many council meetings. That's on N d P. council meetings where You're told first and foremost that all

the positive stuff that comes out is going to be about the leader and only the leader, not the issues, not

the other people doing the work, and all of the negative messaging is going to be primarily about a person

and not ideas. And I think like that's really what gets me upset when we talk about these leadership calls

and why they're a bad thing is just We're not talking about the issues right

M,

and

Hm,

I'm so guilty of it. Still, you know, in Tiktok, I've got a forward tracker and I've named that and I blame him

and I use his name over and over again because I know that it illicit certain emotions, I guess, but in reality

I'm wasting time by not driving home the point that it's whether it was forward or let J at the helm or any.

If them, it's all going to be the same. No liberal plan, The same capitalist patterns of Now cutting government

spending and leaving us hanging out to dry. and like attacking the person is really just such a distraction.

Yeah, and it's it's also like it's so tempting to follow into just that messaging because it's also

often the most efficient, you know, when it comes to limited resource. If you can knock down a leader

that does have an effect for most people

Yeah, and

it

that's

shouldn't

like easy.

Yeah, and there's also like a certain level of con Roll that you surrender when you use that strategy.

Because the spin right like a lot of the ways that you can criticize someone. It all comes down to

how that ends up getting spine in the narrative right like I remember, I was taught. I ran into an

activist I knew the other day who, like he does activism in the Philippines, and he was telling

me about how the person he was organizing against There was like some scandal where they were like doing.

They were caught doing coke or something, And and then the media spend it to be that. Oh, they have to

do coke because they're such a hard worker that it's what they do to be able to keep

That

up

might

with

be

the campaign,

true.

and for the record like I don't use this example, because I have anything like. I don't have any

stigmas against Trug. So we're using about like the narratives right,

Yeah,

Like that same Narrative would knock down someone else and here it gets fun into a positive right.

So when you?

Someone had a really creative press team

Yeah,

Like

and apparently it

that's

worked

impressive.

so I don't know. Like this was a passing conversation. I didn't get the most details about it, but apparently

it worked and that's kind of what it comes down to right Is that like when you attack a leader, it's

also very easy to defend the leader. You know what I mean. Like the like, How many things? I think

Trump was the ultimate example of that, which is that the amount of ship that you could get away with

you know it all comes Down to the spin and I think when it comes to criticizing, like when somebody

brought into that cult, and I think cult is kind of a useful term right because it's like surrendering

a bit of like the rational thinking. And so

Yeah, it

when

becomes

you're

entirely emotional.

when you're in that cult, you know it is completely unacceptable for you to be wrong about it. You

know. so so

We

any

know

critics

that

Sums, just get dismissed like they're not going to land, they're not going to land. You attack the

leader, you attack the person. It's not going to land. And so you see that constantly, the people

who support people support those people and will keep supporting those people. And by attacking those

leaders there's nothing you can get. nothing you can say that will get through them. Maybe you get

through to a couple, maybe, but it's not going to be effective on a larger scale, So it's also like

I feel like we're wasting a lot of our time there. I don't know.

Well, I think that's on purpose. right. It's like that moving target, that false target And it's it's in within

our enemies and within ourselves. because like Jagmeatsaing, he's a perfect example. Like people who are frustrated

with the party right now blame him. but he doesn't actually do anything from what we know like he hardly

does anything. Um, and leading right. There's no grand

M.

vision.

hm,

There's no planning that's coming Rough. Him, particularly, he's being propped up and put on display and so

being frustrated with him and thinking that a leadership contest is going to fix it, Just like you know,

the Ontario, N D P. getting a new leader here Like those, aren't even the people actually running the show.

And that's the same on all levels of government. Like Trump isn't actually coming up with most of those ideas,

those horrible initiatives and neither is Trude for the most part, Like there's going to be some exceptions and

cabinets are set up different Ways. But you know it's It's just to like people aren't educated to as well

as how these power structures work right. So it's so easy to be like. Oh, it's him. It's forward it. It's

whoever you want to blame at the time and you can spend all your energy like we've seen entire campaigns, money

spent energy spent to get the Minister of Education in Ontario, fired by whom By forward to be replaced by another

person like that Is

Yeah,

Such wasted time. When it's the ideas that those will continue. The cuts would continue with a different

face because we like we learn nothing, because cabinet shuffles are just one way out of it right. So that's

like Duck and dodge. I asked you before we started recording. You know how we thought to Conservatives.

Do, people on the right put as much hope and deference into their leaders. You said.

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't think they do. I don't think they do. I also think that like one of

the things that I came up for me was there was like this idea. I feel like there's almost this like

assumption that ass hole politicians, asshole leaders, asshole cos, whatever are a finite resource.

That

Ah,

that that by getting rid of them

well,

there.

not for the Ontario N D. P. Right now there was only one to choose from.

But you know what I mean, Like this idea that you get rid of them and the next one won't be the literal

same thing. And that's the case with everything in capitalism. right, you're gonna you get rid of

one of those and it's a hydra, you know, chop off one head to grow back. That's how it is.

What's

right.

worse. What's worse, Though, thinking getting rid of like a trump, yea we be Trump, or and thinking we've won

Yeah,

or that false hope you put in like a boma

No, exactly,

That people spent energy propping up rather than defeating, And obviously there's differences between the

Hm,

two, but I mean a Boma bomb the ship out of racialized people. He built those migrant detention centers.

Like all the things that we just despise and try to jump on Trump. like? Um, Like policy wise, they didn't

differ all that much right, save

M,

for

hm,

like some human rights issues like very few, though, And I'm wondering, like what does us more harm wasting

our energy attacking, like this kind of man behind the curtain that's not there, or that false hope that

false hope that you kind of talked about in the very beginning where we think someone will save us Because

that that probably means you're not doing the work that you would do if you thought it was on you and your

comrades, Right, like

M,

race

hm,

is all the work That goes in behind these leaders, good and bad, Like Jem, didn't get where he was. Fourth place.

I guess without the team that's behind him and trumped it and get there without all these folks propping

him up in the media, Um amplifying it right. But we don't really look there. We just have this really narrow

focus and uh, yeah, I can't decide which one is more detrimental to You know, actually getting the work done.

I mean, I feel like that. I mean, I've seen that false hope so many times stop people from getting the

work done

Yeah,

that like I'm and I think that comes back to like a central theme of this podcast which is like the

The problem with just electoralism right. Just like

Yeah,

only doing the electoralism thing and putting all your hope in the electoralism thing and then losing

All your hope and energy because all you did was the electoralism thing and absolutely nothing changed.

Right

Yeah,

and like that's done so much harm and earlier, when you asked me about, like our conservatives, more

or less on the the cultural leadership, I think an important thing to like kind of ask is when we say

conservative, Are we talking about conservative voters or the actual capitalists, like the people

with resources, money power, who Are really the conservative party? Right, because there is a distinction

there right. I think that conservatives are like more like the Elector is more. I'd say it's just about

as loyal as liberals to the whole cult of leadership, but I'd say that behind the scenes conservatives

are cut throat. They're quick to move on the second someone loses their usefulness, You know,

Except trump ites like. I think I feel like there should be an astre every time we say this, because

But that's

like

the electorate,

they take it to another level, like the swag and the passion and this man has is

But

lost.

those are the voters. Though

He's not

those are the voters, not not not the people behind the scenes. I don't think that there is

Right.

committed to it, and I feel like, I mean they know what they have to gain by playing that up to the

people who are still very much drinking the cool aid. But

I think Trump was an exception in so many ways, though, like you say, voters, I'm I'm thinking half those folks

didn't. I know, the numbers are not going to support me here, but I feel like they're not even voters. That's

just really reactionary. It's like almost like a fuck you to the established political class because he was

just so out there in terms of like being a politician right, it was like

M,

the anti

hm,

politician, even though in the andes, doing capitals bidding the same way just with a different stick. But

It was it was just It did come coalesce around him and then kept its momentum even when he was removed from

power. Even more so right,

M,

like the

hm,

almost rose up in the absence of his power, so I feel like Yeah, there's just like another lens to look at

that situation. But if you look at

Hm,

Canada, we always mark like our eras by Prime minister, Right, like not by an actual political analysis of

the change.

No,

You know, Like Maroni, brought in that A liberal approach that Regan had. but we don't. We don't put those words

to it and teach people that it's like my dad hated Maroni. so I do, and you know, Yeah,

It's not measured by how people are actually doing like quality of life,

Like your average person. Yeah, I know now, and that's we don't even mark our eras that way. Politically,

You know when we shifted away when our foreign policy shifted to a certain way, or you know, our social safety

net became less of a you know priority. We don't mark that or just market by what leader was empowered.

Quite often. people can't name even what party they were. I think that's

And it's also so like complicated also because like, for example, right now, Trudohas been Prime Minister

for high for how long? but almost every province is conservative right and so like, Is it the era of

Tito? Is it the era afford? Which one is it?

It's the area. Well, it's right now. It's like the era of fucktrudo. I think that's what's galvanizing a lot

of people. Like I come from a neighborhood where every other truck has that on their bumper stick, like,

and that again is like this huge focus. The convoy doesn't even really know what they're protesting or asking

for. I mean, there's certain ones that have real subversive motives, but generally I think most of them are

clues. Wouldn't be able to articulate it except that Tyre. he's a tire, Like trudois, just some tyrant, and then

you go into liberal spaces and you try to say anything negative about Trude and you've got to be a conservative

and you know full disclaimer were neither, But

Hm.

yeah, it just elicits such a devisiveness to right. As soon as you start talking about the leader, you're

almost getting a different person in their response. Right as if you talked about an issue right when after

an issue and talked about the importance of health care, you could actually have discourse. But once you

bring the leader into And I feel like that, that's that constructive discourse just disappears. it becomes

irrational and yeah, the amount of media space that's dedicated to it as well, I think is just such a drawback

from like letting folks know what's what's actually in the policies rather than where they are and who they're

shaking hands with, or who's yelling at them outside of their dinner Like

It comes back also like, Just because you mentioned media, it comes back to that fundamental issue

in journalism about. Like because these are not like always. it's It's not like backroom meetings where

they're like planning to like. Focus only on leaders because they want to like not give people information.

but it's because it's easy. right. Like communicating to people politics through the lens of leaders

is the Seest way to do it right. It's much more difficult to try and tell people about all of the nuances

and policy and all three hundred and thirty six. Is it? I don't even know any more. That's good. I'm

glad I don't know three hundred and thirty whatever, Right Like people don't people. Can't you don't

have the time for that, So it's easier to just do the whole leadership thing and sell it all through

that image, but it's also Not doing anyone justice and I don't know. Like Ow, Do you fix that? How

do you? How do you actually change the way that we communicate politics to people?

That is? that

Ah,

is like the question, the golden question. T. because whatever it is, we're not doing it and a lot of it

sounded like education right. It's easier also because people maybe wouldn't understand, So it's digestible.

It's cellable. It's drama to write. Policy versus policy just doesn't elicit the same narrative as to individuals

fighting each other. You know, those digs that we like to publish at each other, and it just evolves

Hm,

into this um. battle of the personalities, and another real negative impact that that has is traces the

fact that they're essentially all the same right. It

M.

was like Ford versus Trude, and like now, Trudois, just saying, Oh, well, you know what, your private health care

is really innovative. So like all their bickering back and forth and all this talk about Tito saving us, It's they're

all the same. They're all doing capitals bidding. Um, there's not

Yeah,

much that separates them

You know it's an interesting policy to think about right now is because I was just thinking about

how like whenever they. actually, whenever you want to sell policy, you got to give a catchy name. You know,

you got to make it a whole thing. You know. You got you got your bucket bears, you know, and stuff

like that, But I was just thinking about the green New Deal and how How so many right wing Republicans

and such they hate it, But they have no idea what it is. They just know the name Green New Deal and

then they're against

Like critical

it.

race theory.

Oh

To

yeah, critical race.

what

there

is it?

is

I don't

another

know, but I don't like it.

another great example. There's all kinds of like whenever, like, actual policy gets brought up and

you have to sell it with like some name you know like. but like the actual content of it is not

what people are paying attention to. And then it's so funny how much how angry people can get about

something that they have no idea what it is. You know.

That is so true and I know this is kind of digressing a little bit as well. But if you ever actually read

for nations, See, I even call them That should be. the progressive conservative government Acts like they're

so awful. They're so arrillian. They literally say the opposite of what they're doing. Um, because every time

someone tells me the name of the act, I feel like my response is not really called. That is it? And and sure

enough, if you look at it, it is so. Yeah, messaging is just manipulation in politics and leadership Cults

are not the only example of that. by far, Um, I think it serves us well to kind of talk about the two leadership,

kind of situations in Ontario That got us talking about leadership, this and leadership. that the Mike Shriner

drama. I'm Having fun watching people's reactions to this because they're getting quite worked up and emotional

about it. Have you waited into this? So this is the Ontario Green Leader Is being courted again by this time

like real high ranking liberals, whatever that means. And you know they wrote an open letter pleading with him,

and although he had said he wouldn't even consider it, he's now asked people for some time to carefully consider

it. So

I mean, I got to be honest when I say that I haven't been focusing the most on it. It's been like one

of those times he got asked to run for the leadership of the Liberals. It is

Yeah,

right,

so like you know, you've got your, so I'm goin t feel you in Santiago with the audience. So the you've got liberals.

They're getting all worked up because they've got their favorite one of seven, M. P. Ps, or whoever you know,

they've got a liberal, may be federal hero that they had planned for this job because they see themselves

as researching, and apparently it all rests on who your leader is not your content. so I guess some of them

are very excited at the idea of just replacing it with someone with some star power At the

M,

moment. And then you've got your greens, who you know are enjoying having someone like Shriner who pulls very

well in Ontario, is a bit of a super star amongst Left is because he has, you know, what would be considered ultra

progressive ideas in Ontario politics, even left of the Ontario and D P. most of the time To be honest, And

so the greens there are mixed. Some of them are like. Well, maybe we could all be liberals and actually win.

And then you know the grass fruit. Most of the grass fruits are Just like now. Like we finally have momentum.

We finally have a really genuine leader. That's not Elizabeth May, And you know, how could you leave us right?

How could you do that to us? How could you even think about it? And again it's just like, Although I do

find it amusing at some point because I don't know. I just have fun with the greens. I'm not sure why I'm sorry

to all my green friends there, but it's just again like it doesn't Matt. It should not matter who the leader

of your party is really right. It's like if it's led by really

Hm,

powerful ideas that are communicated, will you should win. You should

M,

transform

Hm,

people's minds, like all of this work, and hope that you know, resting on where Mike Shriner lands. and

like somehow the fate of ontarians rest in that decision is really troubling to me because they're going

to make those decisions a hundred percent based on their Political professional situation, right. Same with merit

styles and all of their decisions like they're thinking about themselves and they're propping themselves up

and creating their own portfolio. I mean, I think that's obvious with what Andrea Howat, Now who's working

very closely with Dug Ford as mayor of Hamilton, You know, they go where they'll win. They'll go where they'll

be propped up. They'll go where they'll have a big spot light. and Yeah, membership be damned. so um, yeah,

I mentioned merit a few times that folks who aren't paying attention to Ontario politics. I don't blame you,

but the Ontario, N. D P had a single person run for leadership, So

And they

you

made

know

sure of that,

they did at the party was absolutely so focused and intent on having this one person become the next leader.

an essential Carbon copy of the last one. I'll bite a better speaker.

They went even so far as to alienate really good M. P. P's attack members, you know, basically structure

the last two years and counting on this transition of power And yeah, it's like whatever you got to do to get the

leader of your choice in place, and it has such detrimental effect on the left. We talked about briefly,

Jagmeetsing, being the leader of the Federal N. D. P. and how he got there. There's still bad blood amongst

Ndpers on. depending on whose camp you were in during that first leadership race for Jagmete, there was you

know, team Nick, Team Charlie, and Teamjgmt And yeah, still, When you, when you're in these circles, there

is animosity and there's folks who don't work together any more because they were in different campaigns there.

And Yeah,

Hm,

like for what? For what? Look where has it gotten us in the last four or five years?

No, and and like, just to bring up another example, just because I was a part of this when N. Paul

was elected leader of the Greens, right in the lead up to that. I remember there was so many members

signing up. There was like a really good energy. He was this whole field of candidates. An Paul wins

and suddenly pouf all of that energy. all of that momentum gone and that happened so so much With this,

where's like? In the lead up to these leadership elections, a lot of great Stuff is happening And then

you just once somebody is elected. Everyone's like Okay. Work is done by by. you know,

Yeah,

And that's the case so much, and you know, like with this, I was like, wonder like, Why is that? Why

is it in Canadian politics that it's always like just one leader? I mean, that's the thing in a lot

of politics. not just Canadian, but

Are you tlkigabotlike The Co leadership.

but even like. what if you?

Like what?

just what if you Didn't have a leader have a party and

Chaos

you just

would

like

ensue San Diego?

now, But what if you like Cychuwhat, if you had like a few people

Yeah,

who all were like cycling through in terms of like media duties, and like talking and stuff representing

the party. but like you didn't and maybe you had, like you could still have like a president. But

just maybe I don't know. not even a fan of that idea, but just saying like what if you didn't How

would Canadians react to that? Do you think? do you think that people would like that? Do you think

they'd fuck with that like

Well, sometimes I wonder if people eat only tune into politics to see the drama around the leadership. But

that idea of like rotation is not um foreign to democracy at all. You know, the Greeks had the Lot system

and your name was in a hat, you know, And

Hm,

if you got drawn to be the Minister of Agricole, Sure, that's what you were doing for the next year, And you know

it had many purposes. It exposed you to all of the ins and out of government, which is society right. How

everything works, the ideas to move around and get. But then you also experience like being the ruled and

being a ruler, so that you know what makes both good right rather than it always being the same person.

It Reduce. Like elections, we talk about the problems like how do you run an election without having that

leader that focal point for people to kind of follow it all. And but elections are really problematic. They're

not as democratic as we

No,

make them out to be. That doesn't? That isn't the only way to structure who will be making the decisions for

the next bet. You know, like if we do look back to the origins of democracy, there are so many other ways

that you can function Without that. But you know the system that we've built up around us makes that really

hard. You know the money that's involved or the way that media is structured to, you know,

M, But let's say

Funnel

like

out sernine stuff

let's say, and I'm just going to pick the Liberals as my example here. just because you know they win

elections. Um, sorry

They do.

if the Liberals said tomorrow, no more leaders. We have no leaders and we're just going to cycle various

M. P. s. Like the Cabinet members, you know, cycle

Trude

the

would

Cabinet

be so upset.

members, But's say they did that. How would Canadians react to that? I'm Only, I have no idea, but

it be really curious to see, and you know, in a weird way it would take certain wind out of the sales

of like

I was just going to say that I'm like well, if you're going to call someone a tyrant if they you know, relinquish

power to a collective. Um, you've got to. You've got to be down with that, but they can be very hypocritical in

their positions, but in theory they would have to support that, and they be in conservatives, Right and the

left would also, in theory support it because we believe in equality, right, Un equalization of power is included

in that. And so, But how would we emotionally react or like, how would our engagement level be? I would like

to think we'd then have to focus on the meat and potatoes,

Right,

right,

right,

the actual substance of what's being put forth, and you know

M,

that might hurt.

hm,

We might not be ready to actually look at how bad you know liberal policies really are When you point out you

know the foreign policies of liberals and the real right wing stuff, like it hurts people to hear that like

they just can't picture Tuto being that way, or maybe Canadians being that way. But

M, hm.

yeah, now

It's

I think

It's interesting like it comes back to like the systemic analysis right, like we're always attacking

various leaders criticising various leaders, but we never criticize leadership itself, you know,

And maybe

Well, we

that's

did

just

on one

like,

episode called Re Imagining Leadership with Duncan Play,

Ah, like

I had to.

I feel like this is like just me, the anarchist and me coming out quite a bit.

Yeah,

but like you know, like, like, there's different ways to do things is my point, and a lot of the time.

the top down leadership structure is the very problem because one person can't do it all. We're all

incredibly flawed.

And then

People like

oh

the

yes,

best of us is Credibly flawed. The best of us can't do it. That's kind of my point. The very best

person out of all of us cannot do it. It's

Well,

too

there

much.

is no best like. I think you said it right

yeah,

the first time like we're all just like infallible creatures. Right And so that is a

M,

huge problem with those leadership calls too. Because we become, they become such easy targets. So if you could

just discredit Jeremy Corban, you would take a huge look at the Labor party. Now look

Yeah,

at the Labor party. Now all they had to do was pull some bullshit claim

M,

that

hm,

he was in Semitic, and now the Labor party is just in ruins. It's destroyed. It's the ugliest thing I've

ever seen to be honest, to have a labor

Brutal,

in the name, although the Canadian labor Congress sometimes

Yeah,

might uh, get in on that, but

M,

like

hm,

yea, we put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak, and then it gets taken down and we are left with nothing.

Uh, and another thing that pisces me up, too. You can't talk about your own leader. Everyone

Uh,

on the

huh,

left knows this is so in true. Um,

M,

like you can't talk about Jegmet on the left for two reasons. One, you'll be labeled to resist or two. you're

bringing down the left entirely. So we've apparently put all of our hopes into a person so much so that they are not

even open to critique anymore, and we can position them so that you know Critique of them is quickly dismissed even

if it's valid critique. Um, even I was once told I was criticizing the Magrath. She's the

Uh,

national

uh,

director because she was a woman. I identify woman by the like. That's what makes that slightly ironic. Is

it was an anti woman position and it was so typical for women in politics to be bashed, And it was just You

know, And the same thing goes with a Boma and the leaders that we have now like even bidin, even Burney brothers

that were just like, No, not bidin like No, like I can't celebrate that. If it's not, it's burning your bust.

They were told to just get in line behind the leader. You're making us all look bad, and in the end bidin is

awful right. That was no victory by Burney brothers. Had every reason to say, like our guy are nobody at

all, but I think that lie, Uh, gives credit to your theory earlier that the Burney Sanders movement was more

about the grass roots than Burney himself. Like he did defer

I don't

you,

think

don't ever.

I think when it comes to Burney, I think

Yeah,

he genuinely doesn't want to be a leader, which I think is the best quality a leader can have.

It's almost like he's saying, Don't take a picture of me Right, like

Yeah,

the mittens, the cot, the dishevelled hair is like

I

I'm

generally

not going to sell

think

any magazine. Stop.

I genuinely think that he just kind of fell into this at a certain point, and and like that comes

back to like In twenty sixteen, Before you know he ran, he was trying to get Elizabeth Warren to run

instead, like he was trying to get someone else to do it, and then no one else to it. And then he

was like reluctantly, like Find. I guess it's up to me and and then it turned into a whole thing,

But I think that's not something. that is it people are attracted to him Bout is that more grass roots?

And and I think they made an effort in the campaign to kind of talk about. You know, all of the door

knocking and all of the like, the grass roots part of the campaign and all of the like, single donations

and everything like that was. That was why that exploded. you know, And yeah, we don't have anything

like that here and people are already like, like with the N. d P. like people are already towing the

line Day one Like I remember, I saw a Where. Like saline panel was like saying about how they didn't

release the results of the vote And then somebody was like Oh, you gotta like fall in line and keep

all the discussions in house, because you're only helping

Okay,

for your divisive. comments are only helping for and I'm like, like, Are you

You

serious?

know I replied to that,

Did you ex applied

You know.

to that?

I. D. Yeah,

The

For sure. I can't believe people can still say that Now you know that they. still, we have not gone anywhere

in terms of waking up to those kind of harms of just falling in line. Honestly, like history has provided

us with so many examples, But left this surprise me in our hypocrisy and I'm just as guilty. Honestly of all of

these things, it's not a. I'm the perfect left is kind of. I've fallen into all of them Traps, and I still do

sometimes because even Burney, when we're talking about him, we can't romanticize him or corban,

Yeah,

because they also

that's

have

the

their

problem

flaws right,

Like, and that's not like, warm

As do

and fuzzy

I.

like rosy glasses that I still have. Like I know when I'm talking about this that I'm just like seeing

this for the energy that I believe in. And you know and I don't. I don't even know any more. What's

what? I just, that's a problem. You want to believe in something you want to believe You know somebody.

come along and just have the answers and save us. Like I was talking about how like, because like

I studied music, right like my, My dream would be really to just make music, do art cook, spend

time like you know, like the basics of life Like I just, I want to do that. I don't want to be trying

to save the world, but it's like, so like, Like somebody, please come and save all of us, But no,

that's not what's going to happen. And and we have to do it ourselves, you know, and we all Have

to be a part of it.

Yeah, like it's that does become a bit of it because you know you absolutely can't be fighting all the time

either, So it's It's nice to think that someone is doing it. I think in reality, though those aren't even the

folks doing the real work most of the time. Um,

Hm,

so they're not the people to be looking to. It's like all those other people, Um, that put them there. And

even when we talk about leaderless movements. when we talk about some social movements, we, We stay there without

leaders, but really there without propped up leaders. So you know you know that there's somebody that is like

leading meetings, you know, chairing meetings, spear heading efforts, certain projects, you know,

M,

and

hm,

there are definitely people throughout history. Two that have just done really great things worth celebrating,

worth learning from worth imitating. Um, But it's yeah, it's just that complete deference that we fall into

that becomes really detrimental right because like there is, there is seventy positives to idolizing somebody.

Because like I'm thinking of the poster behind me, like Chigavera, I am not unaware of

M,

the

hm,

issues around that, but I'll tell you right now like I have read every piece of work that I've ever been

able to get my hands on. I'm fully versed in the life of Chiavera and his actions, but I still hold him up

in a high regard. I justify the things that he did For the ends that we're trying to meet. Um, and I don't

hold any regret there at all, and I know he's not a perfect person, or was not a perfect person, But he, now

for me, represents also this ideal of selflessness and sacrifice, and Like global solidarity, that is personified

and it's sometimes there's not even a way for me to articulate other than through that imagery, and that might

not even be rational. right. It is probably very emotional, but I only think I've drawn positives from whole

from holding him in that high regard, and I teach my children about him And other leaders. You know, that

will obviously have flowed past as well, but you know I definitely don't want anyone to come away with the

idea that there isn't people to celebrate.

No, And but that that's the key word is the people of it, which is that the people we celebrate are

still people, and all of us people

Yeah,

are incredibly flawed. You know what I mean,

Because who isn't right? Like like,

Exactly like

I don't think you'd be truly human and it's I don't think. It's also even very self serving to the movement

to display our leaders as perfect.

No,

I think

and

there'd

I think

be something relatable in error.

And I think we need to focus on that on the left sometimes because it's like also, there was nobody

who had all the answers. None of us have all the answers. I'm I'm guarantee I'm wrong about a very

large amount of things that I don't even know that I'm wrong about,

I'm

but

not

none of. but you know what I mean. Right is just like. It's like just wanting somebody to have figured

it all out. Nobody figured it all out.

No,

Nobody, one, Thoughts and ideas of the answer. None of it is perfect is through the combination

of everyone that you're going to find the closest thing to an answer. You know. Like the answer lies

in people, not person, Not one person lies in all the people.

And the same can be said for blame right some when we're looking to make

M.

big changes,

hm,

you know, switching out a minister or even like, Let's be honest. At this point, Pretty much anywhere in

Canadian politics, even a new leader from a new party is really not going to make for transformative change

like in your life. in your daily life. I know we've seen a marked decrease in Under Premier Forward, but you

know it was declining under the Liberals, and Ontario had the worst example there where we came. So focused

on Maginti. Was had that same forward kind of attack, ad ora to it where

M,

he

hm,

was, you know, and he wasn't very handsome. He was. He was easy to demon Is, he just looked like a shady

politician, to be honest, and he was awful and they were corrupt. They were so correct And they were able

to just have a leadership race replaced with Kathleen Win, a kinder gentler version of the Liberals, who did

the same policies. Like all the crumbs that we got for them were just leading into another election. They

weren't things that they had actually had you know foundations for Um. And now we've fallen into that same

trap where we think so. It was like if we could just get rid of the liberals. Now it's like if we could just

get rid of four And then it would all be better and I just you know, even if that's Mike Shriner and the Liberals,

I am really really skeptical on whether that or sorry or Merit, and the Ontario N P, that that would lead

to a real big change in people's lives, But people would celebrate it none the less right. It would be like

victory right, like I could only magine people in B. C. And you know, Alberta and Ottley got in and like that

The excitement of finally voting for a winner and getting a winner and then expecting them to transform everything,

and it just seems incredibly naive. Now

I just thought about something, which is Because we said you mentioned earlier about how Trump is kind

of like Outside of the rule in this

Seems

like

to be

he's What about bidin? where it's like nobody. Actually, nobody actually cared about him as a leader

like there wasn't. Nobody was getting the rosy glasses

Capital.

of No, But, but

You

you know

mean

what

you mean regular folk,

I'm

you

talking

mean

about. Like, Yeah, like the people, the electorate, you know,

The working class?

the work Class,

No,

but like people weren't like he was in a cult. A personality. Let me just

Is

say

he,

that,

is he the anti leadership called leader? Is he going to

Uh,

break down

uh,

our idea that we could ever need to trust in our leaders again Like it's just like throw anyone up there Doesn't

matter. Well,

But and that's kind of the thing right? Is that like? Maybe that's the answer When I asked Like, What

if the Liberals didn't have a leader? it would just be like the Democrats of Bidin, where it's just

like you know, I don't know. Like,

Our system

like,

is a little different, but I get what you're talking about.

Yeah, it's just like It didn't matter there. It did not matter that he was like the least appealing

leader ever, and that nobody really liked him and that he was not a good speaker and had no policies

to like. He had nothing. He had nothing going for him. nothing at all except that he wasn't Trump, who

was the cultive leader and he beat the cultive leader. So I guess forty nine minutes into this episode

I don't know where I am. Not any more because I I don't know. Just politic bad is that

No, Well, I think you drifted into the partisanship to that like No matter who you put up there, Umweyll, vote for

right. So that kind of lessons. Our argument that everything is based on leadership

Yah?

called, but it definitely plays into it because I'm going to say this. It sounds self serving, but in my writing

you know ur, M P, who I ran against twice so obviously I'm a sore loser, but literally you could have run

a dead fish not because it was me as the opponent, but because they Goin to vote conservative no matter what like

He cannot speak publicly. sweats whenever he has to, he just repeats the same words he embarrasses himself

on in committee on camera, And it's just endless, but it really even people in town. you go door to door and folks

were like. Oh, I went to school with him. I don't think I could vote for him, but you know and you know they

did anyway. you know. Like so partizanship like that's another episode Als agother

Yeah,

that we've kind of Dived into a little bit, But yeah,

I think the message is less. I mean, cult leadership is the message, but I think the overall thing

is just cult cult mentality, cult politics,

There you go. cult politics Like you've renamed the episode As we've We've gone along, but you know

But

we

I

do

think

it with

that

capital.

we have gone into that like throughout the episode of Like, Explain

Oh yeah,

to other things, And like that is like, and that comes back to like. These cults of leaders are not actually

seen as people. The sin is something else, Gods, or whatever you know. Like

I think we do that with a lot of people in the public sphere.

M.

you know,

hm,

they become a bit of like fair game, but also this, even like when you think of when you're a little kid, and

you realize your teacher has an outside life like a real life, like a family, and they go to the grocery store

and your mind is blown that they exist

Dum.

outside of the realm that you experience them in.

You mean they don't plug them into recharge underneath the cafeteria

I

every

mean,

day.

I mean

Like

to get the things that they get Done. they must, but know, like, um, yeah, they're kind of like different

entities. We do that with capitalists who you know, we attack Galen Weston a lot, And you know that's fair

game. We can. You can hit on Galen Weston, and should, but think of all the other millionaires that are

just like Galen's, taking the heat for all of us, sucker,

Uh,

you know, like all of them are ferfixing

uh,

our prices. All of them are getting rich off our misery. but Galen decides to put himself into commercial,

and now he's just like The

Those

king

commercials

of mimes.

scare me so much. so

Well, they

anyone

should,

who can speak like that is just like you know. like like that. Like that artificial carisma,

Well,

It's horrifying. It really is a scary thing is like. Oh you are. You have no empathy and are very scary

like I don't know like that's just

Well, it takes a certain kind to lead in that way, right to exploit to that level. But you know about you mentioned

this about bidin, and uh, just now about this foe. Carisma. the Greeks, also back to the Greeks,

Yeah,

warned us of orators, right of people who are well spoken, and that they will persuade you to do things, And

it's kind of like look up here and listen and I'm picturing myself just crying to a Boma speeches right, just

balling my eye So that that that emotion that those moments evoked, and then looking back on that and feeling

so ridiculous and thinking of that warning from the Greeks, that like those are actually the people to be

worried about. You know, I say this as a podcastare. That's talking into him

We

like

say

all the time. Don't listen to

as

people

rabbelerousers

who are well spoken.

when they warned about rabble rouses specifically to

We. We're not gonna listen

H.

to that part. I'm just cherry picking what I need

H.

from the ancient Greeks to make my point, Santiago.

No, and

Geese,

to be fair, some of these ancient Greeks involved, like you know, the Platos, the Aristotles, who they

warned about the speakers, and then said, And this is why we need aristocracies and all garches,

And you know

Yes, no, they're not. They're definitely not like leading examples, but you know.

No, but it's but it's funny how like they wren about the thing that they are.

Yeah,

To you know what I mean, Like they were good speakers. They were like clearly because we're still

teaching about them. but it's like and then they would warn about the exact kind of people that

they were like.

Well, that's an ad hominem attack.

M.

It's still a valid argument even if there jerks

No, but it's just like the irony of it, you know,

now

like very.

and the hypocrisy like, Yeah, that I'm also demonstrating throughout this episode repeatedly.

M. Hm,

But yeah, now I appreciate coming on to kind of hash this out with me because it just wasn't sitting well

and I think I've kind of transition from one camp to another and I freed myself of a lot of cult mentality

and include like Nationalism, partisanship and leadership cults, Kind of all, there, all really deserving

a globalist socialist revolution. So I'm working on it myself and I thought it would be helpful to have this discussion

so maybe audience members could start to challenge their perception of how we view leaders and how we should structure

ourselves around them. Because yeah, they shouldn't shape ever Thing. You know, That's really

No,

not. that wouldn't be pursuant to our goals right, but we do it anyway, so I think there's certainly work

to do there, but yeah, we got to start somewhere.

Well, yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know. Cult got to just look at. Learn about cults. I guess, because

that's all. this is cult

Yeah,

mentality. I don't even know anymore.

Oh

This was just all over the place, but

Dam.

I feel like we got somewhere, so yeah,

Yeah, now I'm still like piecing it together, but we're good.