In this episode of the Dirt, Steven Muro shares his extensive journey from software to becoming a leading figure in the B2B marketing sphere, particularly within the grocery sector. With over 26 years at the helm of his own agency, Steven has mastered leveraging data analytics to elevate brands like the Hass Avocado Board and California Strawberries. 

He emphasizes the importance of translating complex data into simple, actionable marketing strategies, ensuring his clients stand out as category captains. Steven's approach to client relationships and his innovative use of data exemplify his belief in the power of focused, client-centric marketing.

Join Jim and Steven Muro as they unpack Muro’s philosophy on blending data analysis with creative marketing to foster B2B success, offering valuable insights for business owners and marketers alike…

3 Key Takeaways

• Data-Driven Decision Making: It is crucial to leverage data analytics not just for the sake of data gathering, but to translate data into simplified, actionable strategies that can directly contribute to overall marketing effectiveness.  This means investing in the capability to analyze and interpret data to set the foundation for informed decision making

• Adapt and Innovate: The ability to remain flexible and open to integrating new technologies and methodologies can significantly enhance your competitive edge.  This underscores the importance of fostering a culture of continuous learning and innovation within your organization, ensuring that your marketing strategies evolve alongside technologically advancements and market changes 

• Focus on the Client: tailoring your services and products to meet the specific needs and expectations of your clients is paramount.  This client-centric approach not only aids in building strong relationships but also ensures that your business’s success is directly aligned with the success of your clients 

Resources

https://www.gowithfusion.com/

About Our Guest 

Steven Muro is the founder of a B2B marketing agency specializing in the grocery sector, leveraging over 26 years of diverse experience from software to consumer packaged goods. With a focus on fresh foods and sustainable products, Steven and his team excel in transforming complex data sets into actionable marketing strategies. His agency's work with notable brands like the Hass Avocado Board and California Strawberries exemplifies a commitment to driving category leadership through data-driven insights and creative solutions. Steven's approach emphasizes client success, innovation, and the practical application of technology in marketing.

About The Dirt Podcast 

The Dirt is about getting real with businesses about the true state of their companies and going clear down to the dirt in solving their core needs as a business. Dive deep with your host Jim Barnish as we uncover The Dirt with some of the world's leading brands.

If you love what you are getting out of our show please subscribe.

For more information on how we dig into the dirt check out our other episodes here: https://www.orchid.black/podcast

About Our Company

Orchid Black is a new kind of growth services firm. We partner with tech-forward companies to build smarter, better, game-changing businesses. 

Website: https://www.orchid.black 

Jim Barnish’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/grow-smart-grow-fast/ 

Orchid Black’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/orchidblack/ 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OrchidBlack 

All contents of this show are rights of Orchid Black©️ and are not to be used unless authorized by written consent.

Okay, Stephen, welcome to the dirt.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for being here. Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and why we should all lean in.

Great start. Well, my background is quite diverse and lengthy, as you can see. My background is actually, I started a long time ago in

software and went from software to consumer package goods, where I worked for some of the biggest brands out there, L'Oreal and a division of P&G, and then started my own agency about 26 years ago.

And we work in the B2B area, and we work with the well-known brands that are sold in grocery stores. That's basically our focus is grocery. And so we know a lot of things about B2B. We know a lot about marketing and sort of that experience of working in all of these different areas, I think has made for a really interesting ride.

And hopefully the people that are listening in today will find that as well.

Yeah, so tell us a little bit about those areas. What are those areas?

Currently? Yeah, currently. Okay, well, we work with a lot of fresh food and sustainable products. It feels good for that. We work with companies like the Hass Avocado Board, we work with California Strawberries, we work with Watermelon Board, we work with all, those are just some, and then we work for other groups as well.

Yes.

But those are the ones that have just sort of naturally occurred. When I started the agency, we were not so focused on fresh foods and items like that. But slowly but surely, we kept getting more and more calls and sort of organically, no pun intended, we went off in that direction. And today, that's the majority of our business. We do a lot of work in research. And.

Mm-hmm.

and data analytics, and then we take that information and we convert that into creative marketing messages and creative layout and things like that. So we go the entire stream. We wanna find out what's going on in the marketplace, how somebody's product fits into the marketplace, and then how we can make them stand out so that their brand rises to the top and they become what we call the category captain.

Love that language. So the data is so important, right, to everybody, no matter what industry you're in, no matter what you do. So talk to us a little bit about how you guys have become, why you lead with data, I guess, and then how you've become the foremost experts in that category.

Yeah, thanks. Well, it's such a change. You know, when I started the company those many years ago, I literally was saying, we've got to start working with data. We've got to start working with research. And I literally had people laughing at me, telling me, go away, there's no need for that. Well, today, obviously, there is a need for that. So the things that I think have made us so successful and the leader that we are in our area.

is that we take very complex information, complex data sets. We work with syndicated data sets that are sometimes 30 million rows long. And we compress that and make it simple to understand. Because the last thing we want to do is to use data speak. Just like I encourage marketers not to use marketing speak when you're talking to a client. You need to make it simple to understand.

So we take that information and we convert it into charts that are graphically appealing. We take messaging that is simple to understand so that our research, our data can be passed along to everyone in an organization and no one has to be a marketer or a data expert. They can all see what's going on and how it applies to their area of the business. And so when we started doing that,

Then we'd have clients say, well, how do we convert this into a marketing message? And I'd say, well, we'll get some creatives in here to help out. And then finally I said, why am I getting creatives in here to help out on a one by one basis? We should probably bring some creatives in house. So that's what we started doing. So that's how we became sort of an agency that does everything from research, data analytics, marketing messaging, branding, strategy, everything in between.

If a client wants it, we can pretty much do it.

So given that you started off in tech and have a lot of big enterprise experience and now bringing some of that down market, when you look at the way companies are doing business and you look at the way that you're helping them, have you already started to develop some sort of...

technology that facilitates the way you do business, or are you always working with third party vendors for technology components?

Uh, well, I would say, you know, for the, for some of the nuts and bolts pieces, you, we don't want to reinvent the wheel. So, uh, we use databases that already exist that we didn't have to invent, but what we really are strong at is, is taking the information that we get out of, let's say of a large database and converting that through our own methodologies, through our own strategies and algorithms.

uh, into methodologies that are unique to us and that no one has. And, uh, and it's always interesting because people always say, well, how can we do that? And I just say, spend 25 years developing the technology and you'll be there. Uh, so it's, that's all it takes. So, so the big stuff databases and, uh, you know, we're obviously not going to be working to develop our own AI engine or anything like that, but, uh,

That's it.

how it's being used, how we're bending it and pushing it into place for the needs of our clients. That's really where our strength shines. Understanding the need that the client has and how do we take these components and push them together.

What are the biggest obstacles that you face when you're bringing on maybe a client that's not as, call it data forward or tech forward as your methodology speaks to? Is there a lot of lift in terms of education and onboarding or what are you finding in new client acquisition, I guess?

You know, it's interesting because oftentimes we'll have a client or a potential client call us and they'll say, hey, listen, we really are interested in finding out more about data and research and things like that and how we can use that in our marketing programs. So our goal is really to suss out how literate are they?

Because sometimes they will say, oh, yeah, we know all about this, but they really don't. They don't know how to use it. And that's one of the early lessons that we had in our company, was people said, oh, we must have this. Our client asked for it, or my boss asked for it. But then when you start talking to them, you realize they know they want something, but they don't know how they're going to use it. They don't know how to apply it to their business.

And so we have to then figure that out with them and basically not get over their heads, so to speak. And the products we deliver are different. If someone is highly sophisticated in their business, we'll give them a highly sophisticated work. But if the deliverables aren't simple enough for those that don't understand, then they will take it in.

Mm-hmm.

They'll look at it and say, well, we don't know what we're supposed to do with this. And that's the end of the relationship. So, uh, so, so knowing where your client's at on the spectrum of understanding is key. And I think that's true for marketing and everything else as well.

So there's, you know, there's this one process that a lot of services businesses will go through that they have a lot of hard lessons learned, right? It's called RFP process. And, you know, I know that you guys have built a solid book both direct through direct channels and other channels and also through RFPs, but life wasn't always so easy in terms of what RFPs to respond to and.

Hmm.

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you know, what one's not to. That's something we haven't really talked about a lot on this show that you've got a lot of knowledge on. So I'm just gonna leave it there and see what you've got to say on RFP process.

Wow, you know, it's lessons that were hard. RFP process is like a minefield. Fortunately, as you learn and you start building these lessons up, things get better. And I always wish that when I started out, I had somebody that, I wish there was a podcast back then that I could listen to.

And I say, oh, well, that's what I have to do. There was none of that. So I think there's just, yeah, absolutely. So there's so much I can share. I'll just start sharing some ideas with you and your visitors here. One of the things that was very beneficial for us was to create a system, a system of how

Thanks for the plug, Steve. Appreciate that.

an RFP routes through our company. Because before, you know, a salesperson would go out and then they'd start writing the RFP and they go, all right, we're ready. Let's give it to the client. And then the marketing group would say, well, wait, this doesn't include us. And the finance people say, what the heck are you doing? This isn't ready. We have to figure out what the profit is on this. So the first thing is, I think you need to create a system. Who touches the RFP? And at what point does it move forward?

or get axed because as you said a few seconds ago, what not to reply to is just as important as what to reply to. Now it's so much easier for us. We'll get RFPs and we go, hey, this is great. We really thank you, but we're not the right group for this. So let us know if you have anything else. But as we go through this system, there are things that we actually started outlining

that needed to be discovered before we could completely complete an RFP on behalf of a client. So some of the things we said are, ask these questions. Say to the client, what does the finished product look like to you? Go ahead, tell me what it looks like. And oftentimes you'll say, well, I don't know, that's why we're coming to you. Well,

What does that tell you? It tells you that they haven't really thought very much about the project that they're asking for. How hard is it going to be to give them a product that they're gonna be satisfied with if they can't even define what they're looking for? So what does the project look like to you is a very important question, and you should keep probing that question. Other questions are,

Mm-hmm.

Who's the decision maker in this process? Who's the decision maker? Now this happens all the time. They will go, well, I'm the decision maker. It's me. Yeah, right. I had an instance where the guy says, I'm the decision maker. It's up to me. I'm the guy. We revised the RFP four times, four times to make him happy. And then he comes back and says, well, I gave it to my boss and they didn't want to do it.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a fun one.

Right? So if they're the decision-maker, they need to be able to define the process. Here's the hardest one. What's your budget for the project? Now, they never want to tell you that. Oh, I'm not going to tell you what my budget is. So you have to be able to pull that out of them. And I'll tell you, this came from an incidence. Everything came from an incidence. We had a.

Mm-hmm.

client who basically said, I want, and this is the quote, the Mercedes-Benz of projects done here. I want this to be top flight, the best. Okay, what's your budget? Just put the Mercedes-Benz in there. So we came back with like about a $900,000 quote and they went, what? I was thinking

Yeah.

Oh really? You buy a lot of Mercedes Benz for $15,000? So now what we do is I'll say, all right, don't tell me what the number is. Tell me what the range is. And then, well, we don't have a range. Well, is it, I'll throw a number out. Is it $500,000? And they'll look at, you can see the look in their face. Well, no, it's not 500. That's high. Okay. Is it?

five dollars? Well, no, it's not five dollars. It's got to be a lot more than that. All right, so now we're starting to build our range. So now let's get to something that you feel comfortable with because having us come up with ideas and spending your money doesn't work. You have to help us through the process. In fact, we have a phrase and that is client engagement equals agency success.

Yeah.

And this is true through the RFP process. And it's true once you have landed a client. I've seen agencies fail because the client is not engaged. And if they're not engaged in the RFP process, they're probably not going to be very engaged once you've landed them. And as we all know, there's nothing more expensive than the very first projects you do for a client. They're highly expensive because you're learning, you're changing, you're fixing.

Mm-hmm.

It's only after you've had them for a year or more that you can start to understand what they're doing and you can start to take some shortcuts to complete the projects on their behalf and start to earn some money. So these are the things that we're trying to find out all through the RFP process. The other thing you need to say to yourself is how realistic is what they're asking for? Do they have a dream? Do they understand marketing? Do they understand?

the data that they're looking for, the research that they're looking for, or is it just some sort of myth in their head, or that their boss said we need to do it? And that's a big one, right? My boss said we need to do it. So I think these are the things that we really want to think about and really focus on. And

In the RFP process, when you return your scope of work, of what you're going to do, and I learned this the hard way, it's important not just to place in your scope what you will do, but what you won't do. What's not included in the RFP? And we actually put in there, changes equal more money on your behalf. It's like building a house, right?

You've designed the house, the contractor's given you a price, and then you go, well, listen, I want to move the kitchen out another 30 feet. It costs more money. So you need to have all of that sort of lined up. The other thing we always are very careful of is scope creep. That's how you lose money really quick is all of a sudden the clients start saying, well, what if we did this and what if we did that? Well, that's the questions you should have asked before we.

Mm-hmm.

We completed the RFP on your behalf. So that's why if you don't, you should be using change orders. And those change orders should say, you've requested a change. Here's exactly what you've requested. This is what we're gonna do, but this is the cost of that change. A couple of those, and clients understand really quickly that they can't just keep pushing the envelope. You have to make money too.

Your business has to make money. Your agency has to make money. If it doesn't, then it's no good for anybody.

Some other things we found, and then I'll let you ask any questions, some other things we found that I think are really interesting is we've developed a project and the client will say this is what we want you to do and they'll be very specific about it. That's good. You want that. You want that specificity. Then you develop the project and you give it to them and then somebody else in the organization says, well, why didn't you think about this? And it's something totally different. And then the client comes back and says,

Yeah.

Wow, other people in the organization are saying, why didn't you think about that? And then they look at you like it's your fault. Why didn't you think about that? Like you're supposed to know every in and out of this organization you're working with on your very first project, right? So you have to be prepared to push back on that. And one of the things I think we've been very successful at is we're not afraid to push back, but we are also very polite in the way we push back.

Yeah.

But I think pushing back is key. So now ask.

So let's walk through one of those pushback scenarios because these examples are so helpful, I think, for the audience. Give me an example of a time when you needed to push back and how you were able to push back.

Yeah, we were working on a creative project. I thought this was fun. We're working on this creative project and it was a, there was an ad and there was some materials and stuff. And so we gave them, we gave the client some, this is what we think should be done. And this is the way it should look. And this, we kind of laid out why and the reasoning and the strategy. And they go, well, we really wanna do something slightly different. And so,

in-house they took what we had done and they manipulated it and changed it and then proudly came back and said, what do you think? And I said, well I think the same thing as I told you before, I don't think that works. And they looked and they said, what? I go, and then I went through all the strategy again that we had shared with them. Here's why it doesn't work. You're missing these points here, you're hitting too hard on one point, not enough on these other ones.

And so, yeah, do it, but I think you're missing the boat. I think you're cheating yourself out of a better product. I said, it doesn't have to be our idea, but what you've done here is just simply not the best. And they said, we'd forgotten what you said, and those are good points. So, okay, let's change it back.

Sometimes all it needs is a little push and shove, a little reminder of the history there, right? Because we are human at the end of the day.

That's right. That's right. I had one time, I'll never forget this. This is a long time ago, and I'll tell you how long ago it was. We were developing an ad for a client and they were in a, it was sort of like they came to us and said, we're in a real hurry. We just want to get an idea for an ad. So we had a sketch artist on, on staff. So we did this quick pencil drawing and, uh,

And like that same day we went back and we said, we're thinking of something like this, but you know, it'll be all done. This is just a rough. And they go, so you're gonna make a whole ad out of pencil?

Hehehe

No. And that's when you learn if the client has vision or not, or if everything is very literal. And that's another thing that's important to know about that particular client.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are there any times when Fusion bid for a client and later realized it wasn't the right fit?

Oh, yeah, yes, you know, but unfortunately, sometimes that's a year later when you realize that you have a client that will say we really are looking for help. We really want your brains. We really want your strategy, but that's not really what they want. They just want a pair of hands to do the work for them for their ideas. And, and

Mm-hmm.

I've learned that the hard way because literally one time we did this creative project and then the client changed it all and went to print with it and started making a big deal out of it. And I literally had to make phone calls to people and say, if anybody asks you who did this, please don't give them our name. We didn't do this. The client did it and just use our hands to create the project. And it's an embarrassing piece of work.

Mm-hmm.

And that's when we resign that client. Because your work is what you have to rely on to build your business. And if you start putting out junk just for the sake of making a few pennies, you're in big trouble. And I know when you start a company, you wanna make every penny you can when you start.

Is there...

Yeah, anything for a buck, AFB. That's the motto on day one, but it's easy for that to turn into, you know, no niche at all, because you continue taking on everything under the sun. So when you look at lessons learned from that experience or others, is there anything that the audience can learn from in terms of like how to not select a client like that, or is there anything you do different?

That's right.

That's right.

how to identify those types of clients in advance.

Yeah, that really comes from the fact of that first question I mentioned is what does the finished project look like to you? You know, if they can go in a couple different directions with that, they can become overly specific. I see this and it's got a little green dot in the corner and then it's got a picture of my daughter here and we're going to use my boss or my face as the face on the ad, all those kinds of things.

then you know you're just a pair of hands. On the other hand, if you ask what does it look like to you and they go, oh, I don't know, you're the expert, then you know they haven't thought about it. And if they haven't thought about it, how are you gonna satisfy them? Because they're gonna start thinking about it after you start the project and they may end up in a different place. So we oftentimes will go to a client and say,

We can't bid on this until you give us a little more specificity. Your four or five paragraphs in your RFP aren't enough to give us help. We can ask you more questions. We wanna meet with you. We wanna go face to face with you. Those are the kinds of things. And then pretty soon you learn who not to turn to. And then of course it's easy when people give you project they want you to bid on that have nothing to do with your business at all, nothing. Like...

I've had clients, we don't do websites. We don't design websites. Clients will say, oh, I've been looking at your website and we really would like you to design our website. I go, well, if you were looking at my website, you'd see that we don't do websites. There's not a mention of a website on the.

Or maybe we hired somebody to do the website for us, right?

Yes, right. That's exactly what we did. We said, here's our key messages we want on our site. Put it together. Make the SEO work. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. So when you look at the way that you're building, just to switch gears here for a second, you know, you've been building for almost 30 years, right? And longer than that, if you include all the experience and expertise you learned along the way. And you've accomplished a lot. You've done a lot of great work over the years. And

Yeah.

A lot of times when I'm talking to someone like you, we're talking exit strategy, right? We're talking like, how do I hand this off to the next generation? Or, you know, more often than that, how do I get a nice payday at the end of this so I can go enjoy the next phase of my life? Right. And when we talked, when we had that conversation, you talked about kind of a different path that you're undergoing. And, you know, I call it the annuity strategy, right? So, you know, let's.

Alright.

Yeah.

Let's talk to the audience. What is the annuity strategy and how are you using that to drive wealth for your future?

Yeah, well, let me back up a little bit and I'll get to that in a second. You know, if you have a business like mine, you have a couple of options, right? You can, you can sell it, grab the funds and exit. You can sell it to employees, grab whatever funds there are over a payment period. Grab them some money and exit. But I happen to love marketing and I love what I do.

and I love working with clients. However, as you get older, you don't like it as much as you did when you were a lot younger. So using the annuity strategy, you can work a couple of days a week working with clients. And what it basically means is you start mentoring staff to take over. You start mentoring.

somebody to take over your position in the company, to start working with finance, to start working with sales, to start working with marketing and research, to start doing all of the things that I was doing. And that's a lengthy process, right? Because you have to train them not only on what to do, but how to do it and the overall culture of the company, because you can't sort of mess with that.

Mm-hmm.

The culture of the company is so important. And so the annuity strategy is basically to get those people to take over and then to take funds out of the company every year to sort of take an annuity out of the company and have other people run the company. And for me to basically just stay in place.

but for a limited time. And we have another saying, when it's time to meet new clients sometimes or potential new clients, we say it's time for some gray hair. And that's, oh, there we go. It's time for some gray hair and I've got plenty of it. And so it really helps us, you know, because we can go in, meet with a potential new client. We have youth and enthusiasm.

And then we've got experience and we've got expertise and values and everything else. So that's my goal is to never sell the company, but to partly exit and have these talented younger people take over and to run the day-to-day business and to allow me to meet with clients and perhaps play golf every once in a while with them and take them to lunch.

And a lot of times, even with the people that are taking over now, they'll say, well, here's a situation we haven't encountered before. What would you do? And I love that. Well, here's what I would do.

So.

How do you prepare for and execute on that type of exit strategy? Right. Cause I mean, every exit requires preparation. This is a little bit different of a, there's a personal exit, maybe not a exit event, but a gradual, right, a gradual exit event. How do you, what does the preparation look like for those that are interested in that type of exit?

you

Yeah, it's long. It takes a lot of thought, right? It takes a lot more thought to do this than to just say, let's sell it. Give me my price and I'm done. But even if you do that, if you love your employees, you need to take care of them. And you have to figure out how you're gonna take care of them. You can't just sort of say, well, there's a new owner, good luck. At least I would never do that.

Yeah.

So for me, it's start identifying people when you hire them to come into the company. Where can this person go? What are their talents? What do I see in them? Are they basically somebody that just does one thing over and over again? Are they multidimensional? Are they social? Because once you get into a leadership position, people discount the sometimes

the need for social skills, but that's like the number one thing you can have, is good social skills, especially when you're dealing with clients. So I start looking at these people and start identifying them in my mind, then you start putting together a pathway for them to grow. This person's going to go this way, this person's going to go that way, and you're mentoring them through the entire process.

Mm-hmm.

And you start off not by micromanaging them, but by giving hints all the way along. And I'll just say some really simple things that'll basically seem dumb, but we sort of have a philosophy that if a client writes to you in the morning, you should respond by the end of the day. If a client writes you at 5.30 or six o'clock at night, we say, don't respond to the client. I don't want anybody writing at eight or 10 o'clock at night.

because you're tired, you're hungry, and you're just writing something, and the client could say, well, that was curt, you know? So respond the next morning. So those are the kinds of things that you can share with staff to say, this is how we do things here. This is how we behave. This is how we continue the culture of the company. When we're talking to the client,

We always want to be positive. We never want to say they have a bad idea. We always say, well, have you ever thought about, that's a great idea, but have you ever thought about this? So those are the things I think that we've put in place and raised the level of each person that works in the company. We've raised their level of thinking, how they deal with clients, how they deal with projects. And then...

If they have something rather complex, at first we'll say, well, I want you to share that complex situation with me. I wanna see what I would do. And then I'll share that with them. I'll say, what would you do first? And then I'll tell you what I would do. And then what happens is pretty soon you start getting in tune with them and they start understanding you and you start understanding them. Then it's a matter of letting go because everybody has their own personal style

I don't want to step on anybody's personal style as long as everything's being covered correctly. And so that's sort of how you do it.

So are you looking to home grow an eventual CEO or have more of a executive leadership ownership without a CEO? What does the future look like?

Yeah, well, the future is we're grooming a president right now and very soon. And then I will still be involved mostly on the financial side and on not to control things, because these people are already working with finance. And they're already coming out with scopes of work that have and bids that have numbers in them for what this is going to cost for the client.

And at first I was overseeing all of that. Now I trust that finance and these people want the company to make money because it's been ingrained in them that if the company doesn't make money, guess what? There's no money for anybody else. So this has worked very well. And my goal is to, like I said, play a little golf, meet with the clients, help out occasionally, make sure the company's making money.

even though they've done a great job. And yeah, so this has been in the process for quite a while now. This isn't sort of a, gee, I just started thinking about this last year. This has been several years I've been thinking about this. And it all just stems back from the fact that I didn't want to step away. I have so many friends that were in much, oh, I have a good friend.

Yeah.

who ran a very well-known company that you would recognize if I told you the name. And this guy was traveling all over the world as the president of this company. He retired. And within six months, he was telling me, oh, I wish I didn't have to retire. His company had a policy. He says, I wish I didn't have to retire. I miss it so much. And when you listen to people talk like that,

I've always learned from other people. Just to give you a quick example, when I was 18, I had this Volkswagen. And these old guys, like my age now, would say, Oh, that's a cool Volkswagen. I'd say, yeah, it's my very first car. And they would say, Oh, I wish I had my first car. Oh, I really wish I had my first car. And there's an old Mustang or something. They really loved it.

I want to stay active. I want to stay engaged. Yes, not to the degree I have been, but I want to stay engaged. And that's what it's all about.

So when you look at your team and what's made them be able to take on so much ownership from you, so much autonomy to run the business, are we talking all millennials, all Gen Z, all boomers, a collection of all sorts? What does the team make up from a generation perspective? And how has that worked towards?

Yeah.

what you're looking to achieve.

Yeah, it's interesting. My, it's a mixture. It's definitely a mixture. I'm obviously a boomer. Hey, boomer. My finance person is a boomer, but my marketing person isn't a boomer and they're millennials. My head of research is a millennial. And then from there,

I'm gonna miss it.

I've got even younger people. So we range an entire gamut. And it's all based on talent more than anything else. And it works because we all have different levels of experience and we're compatible. And we're compatible because we all have common interests. And when we hire, we hire, I really don't hire for talent, for quote unquote talent. I hire for...

personality because it's much easier to train somebody how to do something new than it is to say, listen, you're really depressing person. Could you just perk it up a little bit and smile once in a while? Well, so we hire for personality for fit in the company. And then we train them if we need to, if they've got the wherewithal. And I think the other thing that's made this a cohesive team is that

Mm-hmm.

We really are looking for people who can work together, they're like-minded, and they have an entrepreneurial spirit. You know, there are people that just want stability. So they want to, they think I'll go to work for a big company and I'll be stable. Well, that could have been true many years ago, but it's not the same today. And then you have other people, especially after the pandemic.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I just want to be entrepreneurial. I want to stay home. I want to do my thing. But there's no stability there. So we've tried to combine the two. You can be entrepreneurial. It's your project. Show us what you can do. And you have the stability of the company to help you. Because like all companies, there's ebb and flow. We have busy times and slow times. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to...

make people happy in their position.

How have you seen the, um, the workforce mindset shift over the years at Fusion, especially with the rise of millennial Gen Z workforce and, you know, kind of the polarization of the employer employee relationship in a lot of ways or evolution of, I should say.

Yeah, it's...

For us, it really hasn't changed a whole lot, for us. I mean, yes, you're 100% right. I mean, you know, before it was, and you still see some of this, you've gotta be in the office at eight o'clock and you're gonna stay here till five. And I've never been a big believer in that. From the very beginning, we would say to our employees, do you wanna start at eight, nine, 10? When do you wanna start? But we expect the work to be done. And some employees would say,

I can't get the work done because the office, there's too much activity going on. So I'd say, we'll stay home and finish the work, finish the project. So even before the pandemic came, we all had these little iPads on our desks where you could see everybody working and then you just push their picture and you could have a one-on-one conversation. So people could be home and we could still talk to them through like we're doing here.

And this is really before Zoom became a big deal. So then all through the pandemic, we use that. And now we're in a hybrid situation. You know, we are, we have an office and we go in and we have meetings and people go in and have meetings and they do things, but people work from home and we do like we're doing here today. And I think for all ages, whether they're boomers or.

Gen Z or Gen X or millennials, everybody wants to enjoy their life. And nobody wants to think that, you know, they worked for 50 years and then they retired and enjoyed the last 10 years. It doesn't work that way. So I think if more employers would sort of take that attitude, I think they'd find they would have long-term employees. We have employees that have worked with us for five years.

15, 20, 25 years. And then we have new people that come on because we keep expanding. And then we do fun things. We close down between the holidays and everybody just gets some time off. And that's in addition to their vacation. So we try to make it appealing.

Wow.

What do you think the future of Fusion looks like in, just say five years, from a workforce culture perspective?

If, well, gosh, in five years, I think we're gonna see probably more people working out of their house more. I think we're going to see probably greater productivity out of everybody. And I say that because with the rise of AI, I think that will help people become more productive. We're already starting to use some of that.

And even if, you know, even for simple things, you know, if you wanted to write a blog, you can go and say, hey, you know, write a blog on this and it will write it for you. And we don't use it for that, but we use it for, oh, that's a good outline of how to approach the blog. And then we write based on the outline that AI gave us, not that we're using its words and its thoughts. So simple things like that, you know, all of a sudden you're not spending 20 minutes trying to figure out how am I going to.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

What order am I going to put all this stuff in? So even simple things like that.

What do you think about, like what are you guys doing on the AI front or just on the technology efficiency front, we can call it currently, anything over the last few years that you guys have implemented?

We're always exploring technology. You know, I mentioned at the beginning that I started off in software. So that was like in the 1980s. And I've always been, I mean, I've had my first computer was like in 1983. So, and if you look back there, that computer is from like 1983. And there's are the disk drives for a minute.

Wow.

That looks like one of the computers I played Oregon Trail on as a kid.

There you go, there you go. So, and over further is an old Macintosh. And so there's all kinds of, so I'm really into technology. So, yes, we are constantly using technology to improve what we do. We're always looking for a benefit. You know, what's the benefit of it? We don't incorporate technology just for the sake of it. But in terms of our data analytics, we're using...

Yeah.

algorithms, unique algorithms and things like that. We're using Microsoft Power Tools, which are simple things, but these are all things that you can incorporate. So we're always looking for that. Even simple, crazy things, right? I'm crazy, not crazy. Converting over from a standard phone line to an internet phone line so that you can find out who's calling you and you can use it to, you know.

capture information, things like that. All of those things throughout, that's all the stuff we're looking at. We're constantly scanning what's going on, what improvements. Something unique that I just found out about that somebody told me about is if you're having problems with spam, phone calls on your phone, there's now an AI app that you can go to that will answer those spam phone calls and talk to the person.

So, and basically, and actually blow them off, you know. I don't know, I have to find out. I just found out about this yesterday. But I'm gonna buy that. Whatever it is, I gotta go online and buy it, you know, because that is like, okay, there's just one more incident of technology being useful. So.

awesome what what's that one called

That's great.

Mm-hmm. All right, well to close us off here, I've got five quick hit questions about you and your growth as a human, as a founder, as a business owner. And the first one is, what is the top metric or KPI that you are relentlessly focused on?

Okay.

profitability.

Good one. All right, what is a top tip for growth stage founders like yourself?

Say that again, what is the what?

a top tip for growth stage founders and business owners like yourself.

Focus on the client, not on yourself. Focus on the people that you can make happy. Don't worry about making yourself happy, and you will be happy. Another expression, I always talk about our expressions, if our clients are successful, we'll be successful. And I believe that 100%.

clients first.

What is a favorite book or podcast that has helped you to grow?

Do you want me to say your podcast?

You can only plug us once in a show where people are gonna think I'm paying you, Stephen. T-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-

You're not?

Favorite book or podcast? You know, I don't know that I have a favorite book or podcast because they've all been so beneficial. And as I've gone through my career, there have been different books that have touched me in that moment. But when I look back, I go, eh, now. Cause that's like part of just, it's part of doing business now. It's not.

Yeah.

unique or revolutionary like it was when I first read it. So I would say my favorite book is the next one that's going to inspire me and keep me motivated. And after I've read that one, then it's going to be the next one that's going to inspire me or keep me motivated.

Has there been one recently that has left you super motivated?

I've read so many recently and I've seen so many podcasts.

I can't name one off the top of my head. I feel like Sarah Palin. Okay, there you go.

All right. You can come in the comments later and leave it. How about that? All right. What is a piece of advice that you often say that counters what one would consider traditional wisdom?

that counters traditional wisdom.

Oh my goodness, that is an interesting question. Well, I guess, you know, one of the things I said earlier was focus on profitability, and I do focus on profitability. And that seems like the natural thing to focus on, right? But sometimes, because everything comes from there, right? That's the gasoline to keep the car moving, or the electricity to keep the car moving.

You would think.

Yeah.

Right.

But sometimes you can't be focused on that. Sometimes that's the wrong thing to focus on. Sometimes it's best to focus on a project that is going to expand your capabilities, going to challenge you mentally and your experience levels, and you're going to gain other things from it that are not as tangible as profit.

And so I would say when those things arise, when those opportunities arise, put the common wisdom of profitability out the window for a little bit and focus on making the client happy and challenging yourself. So I don't know if that answers the question, but.

Yeah, it's terrific. All right, last one here. What is going to be the title of your autobiography?

It's been a long road. Five-0s. Yeah, actually it would be something, seriously, it would be something like it's been a fun ride. I have enjoyed, I've, you know, I tell my kids all the time, I say, if I die, if I die suddenly, don't feel bad.

With five O's.

because I have had so much fun. I've had fun in life, I've had fun in business, I've made so many great acquaintances, I've seen so many things and done so many wonderful things that yeah, it's been a fun ride. Oh man, I just, I'm pumped on life. I just wish it could go on forever, but obviously it can't. And maybe that's why I try to gather all the experiences I can, because I love it.

That's a great way to end this year. So you've given a ton to our listeners today, Steven. So I always allow for a little bit of self promotion here at the end. How can those help? How can those listening help you out?

Oh gosh, if you have any ideas that amplify anything that I've said here today, I would love to hear those because right, we're always learning. You never know it all. And I'm still learning, I'm still asking other people how they do things, how do they do an RFP? How do they deal with their clients? How are they dealing with retirement? So I would say contact me.

It's steven, S-T-E-V-E-N, at gowithfusion.com. Gowithfusion.com. And write me and share any information, or if you think I'm wrong about something, or I should look at something in a different manner, I would love it.

That's a good one that I don't get often to close this off. So well said. Thank you, Steven, for joining us on the dirt and thank you Orchid Black for making this show possible. And thank you to all of you listening in. Keep dialing in and if you haven't done so already, please subscribe. Steven Muro is the man. All right, thanks everyone. Thanks, Steven.

Thank you.