Transcripts
All right.
Speaker:Well, welcome back everybody.
Speaker:To another episode of demand gen
Speaker:chat today, we are so thankful to be
Speaker:joined by Jason Widup, Who's the VP
Speaker:of marketing over at metadata and Mark
Speaker:Huber, who is the director of growth.
Speaker:So welcome guys.
Speaker:Hey Kaylee, thanks for having us on.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:thanks for having us Kaylee.
Speaker:So Jason, let's start with you.
Speaker:Can you walk us through a little bit
Speaker:about yourself, where you've been and how
Speaker:your career landed you here at metadata?
Speaker:Yeah, so I, I've been here for coming
Speaker:up on a year and a half, or, sorry,
Speaker:coming up on two years in September.
Speaker:Um, It's my first true
Speaker:high-growth startup.
Speaker:Uh, I've worked at, I've worked
Speaker:at small companies, but not
Speaker:high-growth B2B SaaS companies.
Speaker:Um, my background has been in
Speaker:marketing analytics, operations
Speaker:at much larger companies.
Speaker:And so like Tableau and Getty
Speaker:images and Workfront, um, and a
Speaker:couple of other places where I,
Speaker:you know, basically led ops teams.
Speaker:And so, I Started as an analyst,
Speaker:um, kind of morphed into operations.
Speaker:And then this is my first time
Speaker:running, like the full marketing suite.
Speaker:So there's a lot of things that,
Speaker:like when mark and I were talking
Speaker:about, I'm like never done this
Speaker:before ever like a basic event.
Speaker:Like now what's an event, [Laughing]
Speaker:So, I'm learning as I go too.
Speaker:So mark, how do you assist
Speaker:How do you land here?
Speaker:What's your background
Speaker:so I started out in consulting, uh, moved
Speaker:over to work for a marketing agency,
Speaker:like a mid-sized marketing agency.
Speaker:That was my first foray in the startup.
Speaker:world.
Speaker:Uh, I've worked at two different startups,
Speaker:uh, prior to working at metadata.
Speaker:And I actually was a metadata
Speaker:customer at my last company.
Speaker:And when I started using the product,
Speaker:I was like, what is this thing How
Speaker:Do more people not know about this.
Speaker:Uh, Jason, ironically um, in the cab
Speaker:said that they were going to be hiring
Speaker:for a marketer and they were looking for
Speaker:referrals and long story short I'm here.
Speaker:And thankfully it worked out
Speaker:if he was smart, If he was,
Speaker:like a smarter I'm just kid-...
Speaker:a smarter marketer, he
Speaker:wouldn't have accepted.
Speaker:you know?
Speaker:And, like, No, he didn't know
Speaker:what he was getting into.
Speaker:No, but Honestly, his, his candidate
Speaker:experience had to be one of the worst.
Speaker:Like he actually, if I remember this.
Speaker:right...
Speaker:Didn't somebody tell you, like no?
Speaker:that it's like Jason was giving
Speaker:the job to somebody else,
Speaker:even like in the middle of it
Speaker:No.
Speaker:...or something like that.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:it was just like, it was horrible.
Speaker:It was like, I felt so bad.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I was like, [laughing] thank God.
Speaker:He's actually still excited
Speaker:and willing to join.
Speaker:Cause if, have I had, I been through
Speaker:that I'd have been Like, what
Speaker:the hell's wrong with these guys?
Speaker:Like, what is, do they
Speaker:know what they want?
Speaker:do they, [Laughing] so
Speaker:no, it was, it was...
Speaker:he was, patient, and it was good.
Speaker:It was a good thing.
Speaker:wait.
Speaker:So somebody rejected you and
Speaker:mark, you were like, don't worry.
Speaker:I'm still here.
Speaker:Just waiting.
Speaker:Yeah, kind of, that might
Speaker:be another podcast episode.
Speaker:Okay, Okay.
Speaker:We can do a separate one
Speaker:on HR hiring process.
Speaker:So, Yeah.
Speaker:That's the sign of a Truly dedicated.
Speaker:person.
Speaker:[Laughing] Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Truly dedicated [laughing].
Speaker:He knew he, he knew what he wanted.
Speaker:He knew what he wanted
Speaker:and for anybody that's listening.
Speaker:I, um, obviously we, uh,
Speaker:we at Chili Piper, are a
Speaker:customer of metadata's as well.
Speaker:So I'm very familiar with Jason and mark.
Speaker:both, Um, as well as their product and
Speaker:what it can do for marketers, which
Speaker:is all the more reason why I wanted
Speaker:to have them on, um, to help share a
Speaker:little bit about, more about metadata
Speaker:specifically, but how you guys are
Speaker:running marketing for metadata as well.
Speaker:So I know that you guys in the last what,
Speaker:six months or so, have been doing a lot
Speaker:of work around your overall messaging and
Speaker:positioning and has landed in this larger
Speaker:form of a strategic narrative for your
Speaker:company, your vision, your values, etc.
Speaker:Can you talk us through.
Speaker:I guess a little bit more about metadata
Speaker:first, what you guys are and the pain
Speaker:points you saw for demand gen marketers.
Speaker:And then how that morphed
Speaker:into this brainwork for, um,
Speaker:repositioning your messaging.
Speaker:We, um, we're a B2B marketing
Speaker:platform, demand generation platform.
Speaker:Um, the way we like to talk
Speaker:about it is we help marketers get
Speaker:closer to revenue, but that's, you
Speaker:know, that's kind of what we say.
Speaker:Um, what we do, we really help
Speaker:with audience targeting like
Speaker:laser targeting, uh, campaign
Speaker:automation and experimentation.
Speaker:To revenue and then lead enrichment
Speaker:kind of on the backend, uh, helping you
Speaker:understand who your best customers are.
Speaker:Um, so mark did a lot better job
Speaker:at explaining it on our website.
Speaker:So just commenting what's on our website.
Speaker:Um, I'll say something and
Speaker:I'll turn it over to mark.
Speaker:Just kind of I'll frame it up, you know,
Speaker:from when I started at metadata, like
Speaker:my idea was I want our marketing to be.
Speaker:The kind of marketing that I would have.
Speaker:wa-...
Speaker:So as an ops leader, I was the buyer.
Speaker:I was like the recipient, of a
Speaker:lot of these like outreaches and
Speaker:marketing and etc., And I quickly
Speaker:realized like what I don't like.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:And it was a lot of the things that
Speaker:were, that are like inauthentic or
Speaker:just like, Because, as a marketer you
Speaker:can really see through those things.
Speaker:And when I did like or the companies,
Speaker:you know, and a lot of the buying
Speaker:that I did, didn't come from.
Speaker:Like seeing an ad being so compelled
Speaker:by that ad to click through being so
Speaker:compelled by the website that I signed
Speaker:up, you know what I mean, for a demo
Speaker:and then being so compelled by the
Speaker:demo that I became a customer, every
Speaker:software purchase that I made had
Speaker:some other element associated with it.
Speaker:I either heard about
Speaker:it from somebody else.
Speaker:Heard about it on a podcast
Speaker:friend, used it, colleague used
Speaker:it, I've used it in a past life,
Speaker:you know, at a different company.
Speaker:There's all these just things
Speaker:that go into it, that aren't
Speaker:these digital, like, a-, you know,
Speaker:activities and signups and things.
Speaker:And so, and wanting to build
Speaker:a relationship with people
Speaker:and being a trusted authority.
Speaker:And that's what it, what really, what I
Speaker:saw with companies that I did a lot of
Speaker:business with, is they had a perspective
Speaker:on things they were different, They did
Speaker:a really good job at offering really
Speaker:good content that was helpful without
Speaker:any kind of like no-strings attached.
Speaker:You know, I could tell that they're they
Speaker:just, they were so good at what they did.
Speaker:They just wanted to make other
Speaker:people better at it as well.
Speaker:And then just kind of like authen-
Speaker:authentic, like they were really
Speaker:authentic who they were good
Speaker:with, who they weren't good with.
Speaker:or goo- good for.
Speaker:And that's what I really wanted.
Speaker:That's how I wanted metadata's
Speaker:marketing to come across.
Speaker:I wanted us to be.
Speaker:like, That nerdy kid in college,
Speaker:that like, was funny and witty, you
Speaker:know, but still very much a nerd,
Speaker:but they knew what they were good at.
Speaker:They were an expert in some
Speaker:things, they could still be funny.
Speaker:A little self-deprecating, people
Speaker:still wanted to hang out with them,
Speaker:came to them, you know, like trusted
Speaker:them when they needed certain things.
Speaker:Like that's who I wanted metadata.
Speaker:to be.
Speaker:And so Mark's really kind of,
Speaker:and I just teed up for Mark A.
Speaker:Little bit, you know, when it comes to
Speaker:like the messaging and positioning and how
Speaker:we've really started to mold that that's
Speaker:I think that was the starting frame.
Speaker:I hope that you wrote that up in an
Speaker:official document to mark, trying to
Speaker:explain to him that we need to become
Speaker:the nerdy kid at the lunch table.
Speaker:And then mark just like, took it and ran
Speaker:it was actually in a document.
Speaker:It actually, it actually is in a doc.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:[laughing].
Speaker:One of the first docs I wrote.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:The one thing that I would
Speaker:add to what Jason said.
Speaker:is, If you were to look at our old
Speaker:website, you know, towards the end of last
Speaker:year, what was on there, it wasn't wrong.
Speaker:But the messaging itself was very
Speaker:tech um, specific and it was very
Speaker:inwardly focused on us as metadata.
Speaker:And what we tried to do going through
Speaker:this entire process was just making
Speaker:it more about the people who use
Speaker:metadata, uh, and how it speaks
Speaker:to them, not how it speaks to us.
Speaker:So, uh, it was to easy.
Speaker:And then I think the other
Speaker:thing, and we'll probably
Speaker:talk about uh, this more here.
Speaker:in a bit...
Speaker:Uh, we originally just wanted to start
Speaker:with the website and then go from there.
Speaker:And if we would have started with the
Speaker:website first, before we actually knew
Speaker:how we should be talking about ourselves,
Speaker:uh, we would have totally messed this up.
Speaker:So thankfully we did not
Speaker:start with the website.
Speaker:We started with the positioning.
Speaker:And the messaging first.
Speaker:And so when you were coming in and
Speaker:you had fresh new eyes coming from a
Speaker:different org, joining the metadata.
Speaker:camp, W was it something that you
Speaker:picked up on and noticed, that, oh,
Speaker:the website is talking all about us.
Speaker:It needs to be repositioned.
Speaker:Was this feedback you were
Speaker:getting from your customers?
Speaker:Like what kind of sparked this
Speaker:kickoff for this massive project?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it took mostly me annoying
Speaker:Jason saying, Hey, I think
Speaker:we need to re revisit this.
Speaker:And I think once I annoyed him enough.
Speaker:That's when he finally said, all right,
Speaker:like, stop annoying me, go work on this.
Speaker:Uh, but for me it was more so
Speaker:just thinking about how our end
Speaker:users Talk about the platform and
Speaker:how it makes their lives easier.
Speaker:And that wasn't reflected on the website.
Speaker:And I had, I had like a, I had a
Speaker:different, so the hard part for me
Speaker:was I had just got done with what I
Speaker:thought was a redesign of the website.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:Oh no.
Speaker:So I'd gone through by myself,
Speaker:you know, and working with like
Speaker:a couple of, and so I was like,
Speaker:oh, we're, you know, it's gonna...
Speaker:Like, no.
Speaker:like, why would we have to do this?
Speaker:It's been less than a year.
Speaker:It was.
Speaker:a pretty Big change, but mostly design
Speaker:there and that's, and I think that's why
Speaker:I was having a hard time agreeing to it.
Speaker:At first it was like, well, we just
Speaker:went through this, but what I didn't
Speaker:understand is like most of the change
Speaker:really needed to be from a messaging
Speaker:and positioning standpoint and then
Speaker:supported with like the design part of it.
Speaker:You know, like the design
Speaker:had to support that.
Speaker:Um, And I'm a very technical person too.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...So like I have a hard time, like when I
Speaker:see tech I'm like, well, yes, it's right.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:Like, yes, it's, it's, it's correct.
Speaker:Um, and man, like I read something
Speaker:that I write and then mark fixes it.
Speaker:I'm just like, oh, I can't, I can't do it.
Speaker:You know, it's just like, it's a,
Speaker:it's a, it's a skill I don't have.
Speaker:And, um-
Speaker:He gets me all.
Speaker:the facts that I need.
Speaker:... but Now.
Speaker:I know now that I know now I
Speaker:know I don't have it though.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:So now that I know I don't have it, I also
Speaker:told mark I'd like to work on it, but now
Speaker:I know I don't have it, so I don't have
Speaker:to go through any cycles in the begin-...
Speaker:you know what I mean?
Speaker:of thinking is this right or not?
Speaker:I can just write it the
Speaker:way I think about it.
Speaker:And then like, "Yeah, he can fix it."
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So Marks' your fixer that's no,
Speaker:that's, everybody needs a fixer.
Speaker:I am not a copywriter either.
Speaker:Uh, We have a really great director of
Speaker:content here that I worked with in a
Speaker:former life and loved her so much that
Speaker:I tried to recruit her to come here
Speaker:and now she joined, which is great.
Speaker:Um, because I always just say,
Speaker:like, I'm not the words, person,
Speaker:like words are not my friend.
Speaker:[Laughing] Um, and thankfully
Speaker:words are her friend.
Speaker:so I think that's a, that's
Speaker:a good partnership to have.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:... for sure.
Speaker:But mark, when you're looking at
Speaker:this and Jason's giving you the facts
Speaker:and you're like, "Uh, okay, cool.
Speaker:What is your actual like tactical process?
Speaker:for saying we have this huge like,
Speaker:behemoth of a project in front of us.
Speaker:This is like all the things I need to
Speaker:do, or like the order of operations
Speaker:behind, like getting some of these
Speaker:things done accomplished, changed, etc.?
Speaker:Uh, that is a very good question.
Speaker:I would say.
Speaker:It's not to over-plan from the get-go, but
Speaker:it's to have some sense of plan and then
Speaker:be aware of the fact that you're gonna
Speaker:probably correct this plan very quickly.
Speaker:So we put together an initial plan.
Speaker:And then I think what we started with
Speaker:first was I met with as many different,
Speaker:um, people along kind of the spectrum
Speaker:that I'll explain here in a sec of
Speaker:longtime customers, new customers.
Speaker:uh, Prospects that are in pipeline, uh,
Speaker:late-stage pipeline, uh, early-stage
Speaker:pipeline, B2B marketers in my network,
Speaker:and then uh, a very cold audience that
Speaker:we tested on a site called winter.com and
Speaker:trying to see just how they are talking
Speaker:about the platform and their own words,
Speaker:uh, from one end of the spectrum, all
Speaker:the way to the other end of the spectrum.
Speaker:And from there, it, we started to
Speaker:identify what were kind of the common
Speaker:threads that people were talking about.
Speaker:consistently, And once you start to
Speaker:see those things coming up, you know,
Speaker:multiple times, then it's like, Hey,
Speaker:we might be onto something here.
Speaker:Let's continue to explore that.
Speaker:So it was open-end...
Speaker:It was like structured in a way, but
Speaker:it was like, very open-ended to start.
Speaker:And then once we figured out where
Speaker:we wanted to take it, that's when we.
Speaker:kind of Really got specific on
Speaker:how the plan needed to change
Speaker:and how to get there quickly.
Speaker:Yeah, no, I love that too.
Speaker:and the fact about it being open-ended
Speaker:I think that normally marketers are
Speaker:very risk-averse when it comes to
Speaker:open-ended surveys or open-ended
Speaker:questions because it's harder to analyze.
Speaker:It's like more manual labor for
Speaker:you on the back end, to compile and
Speaker:like resort that into actual trends.
Speaker:Um, but it's so much more telling when
Speaker:you just, you know, kind of tee it up
Speaker:and then don't say much of anything.
Speaker:else.
Speaker:Leave the ball in their court and
Speaker:let them fill in the blanks because
Speaker:it's uh, very telling what they say
Speaker:versus what you think they should say.
Speaker:Um, it's almost never
Speaker:what you're thinking.
Speaker:Like we started, uh, like an internal
Speaker:product marketing doc of like, before
Speaker:we went through this entire process,
Speaker:what we thought it was going to be, or
Speaker:kind of what I thought it was gonna be.
Speaker:And Jason added some feedback and we
Speaker:were like, all right, you know, I'm
Speaker:sure this is what it's gonna end up.
Speaker:as."
Speaker:Shocker.
Speaker:It did not end up like that.
Speaker:So we wouldn't have got there without
Speaker:actually talking to uh, customers.
Speaker:And prospects.
Speaker:And then, how do you
Speaker:keep this process going?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So you've just done this
Speaker:like major overhaul.
Speaker:How do you continue to innovate and adapt
Speaker:your messaging as the market shifts?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I think all markets are probably
Speaker:ever-evolving, but for some
Speaker:reason, maybe I'm biased.
Speaker:I think ours is like hyper-evolving,
Speaker:like two times the speed of anything.
Speaker:else.
Speaker:Um, and so staying relevant and
Speaker:staying innovative has, like,
Speaker:gotta be a part of your mix.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's the other thing is
Speaker:that it's always a moving target.
Speaker:So even though we went through this
Speaker:whole messaging you know, exercise
Speaker:to say that we're done, or don't have
Speaker:to worry about it for, six months
Speaker:or 12 months is just being ignorant.
Speaker:So I think for us, what we're trying
Speaker:to do is continue to talk with
Speaker:marketers uh, that are customers
Speaker:non-customers, and just see, you know,
Speaker:are the things that were huge pain
Speaker:points for them, you know, six months.
Speaker:ago, Are they still the biggest pain
Speaker:points now or are they changing?
Speaker:And and you know, we're moving
Speaker:up-market, So we know the messaging
Speaker:will change over time, but you just
Speaker:have to talk to a lot of people and
Speaker:see how is that change progressing.
Speaker:And that was an important part.
Speaker:I would say that was an important
Speaker:part for us to go through 'cause
Speaker:we have a technical founder, right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:So Gil is our founder, very technical.
Speaker:And so, you know, a technical
Speaker:founder is going to.
Speaker:They're going to err towards what they
Speaker:would want to hear about a platform.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:so what interests Gil
Speaker:about a different platform?
Speaker:Not ours are the specifics, you know, the
Speaker:metrics and like these kinds of things.
Speaker:And so the way that mark did
Speaker:this analysis, yes, it was like
Speaker:listening to calls and things,
Speaker:but it resulted in data still.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:So where we could like still present
Speaker:something and be pretty confident.
Speaker:that, Hey, if we make this shift in
Speaker:messaging, it's gonna resonate because
Speaker:we've had, we've heard enough people
Speaker:say it and we've kind of counted it.
Speaker:And it was a big exercise.
Speaker:Like, you know, we had to
Speaker:lis- listen, like literally
Speaker:listen to each of these calls.
Speaker:I don't know how you, how
Speaker:many you did, but I, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:it was so valuable too, because I hadn't
Speaker:done enough of them nearly at all.
Speaker:And so I learned a lot of stuff.
Speaker:So, you know, mark could listen to, them,
Speaker:he's getting what he needs, but then
Speaker:he's also able to kind of summarize them
Speaker:and also kind of give me what I need.
Speaker:Like the summary of these, without
Speaker:me having to spend all that time.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:I think I got carried away on jumping
Speaker:into this narrative question and didn't
Speaker:even really, normally I start by asking,
Speaker:um, interviewees kind of what the depth
Speaker:and breadth of their roles are because
Speaker:this is a demand gen Chat podcast.
Speaker:And normally I just interview
Speaker:directors of demand gen.
Speaker:Um, obviously that's
Speaker:neither of your titles.
Speaker:However, everything you're doing
Speaker:is very [inaudible 00:14:39]
Speaker:related to some of the things
Speaker:that other demand gen holders do.
Speaker:Um, but where, what I
Speaker:guess, I mean, obviously.
Speaker:you're A team of two, but still
Speaker:getting an incredible amount
Speaker:of work done in front of you.
Speaker:How do you guys divide up your roles?
Speaker:Or like where does your lane stop?
Speaker:Cause it seems like your website,
Speaker:product research, like you're a
Speaker:little all over the place already.
Speaker:So I'm just curious to understand
Speaker:kind of your lanes or your roles.
Speaker:We do what we're good at.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:That's basically the that's, that's our
Speaker:starting point, you know what I mean?
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:And so, um, and I I've always said.
Speaker:I wanna be a practitioner leader, like,
Speaker:no, never do I wanna be the leader.
Speaker:That's just like, you know, telling
Speaker:everybody what they should do and not
Speaker:having a perspective on how it should
Speaker:get done mark over the last year.
Speaker:He's learned through either me telling
Speaker:him or him seeing things, what I'm good
Speaker:at, I've learned kind of the same thing.
Speaker:And so what it's resulted in
Speaker:now is just, like basically
Speaker:every two weeks sprint planning.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:And we basically just take
Speaker:a list of our priorities.
Speaker:What do you want to work on?
Speaker:What do I want to work on or have to, you
Speaker:know, and then we just go through them.
Speaker:Here's some new things.
Speaker:And usually a given project will
Speaker:need a little bit of both of ours.
Speaker:So it's like, it's rare that
Speaker:Just he'll take a whole project
Speaker:or I'll take a whole project.
Speaker:It would be more common for him to
Speaker:take for mark to take over on a project
Speaker:and be able to do it less common for
Speaker:me to, again, 'cause if I'm writing
Speaker:anything, it, it's gonna go through mark.
Speaker:Um, and then also.
Speaker:like, Mark Holds the keys to
Speaker:creative in some areas as well.
Speaker:Cause I'm not good at creative either.
Speaker:Um-
Speaker:you don't want Jason designing
Speaker:things, but I love him.
Speaker:[ Laughing] No, no.
Speaker:no.
Speaker:Nope.
Speaker:You don't.
Speaker:You can get by with me writing things.
Speaker:You definitely don't
Speaker:want me designing things.
Speaker:That's for sure.
Speaker:I don't even know where to start.
Speaker:Like yeah.
Speaker:So, um, but then we ended up having like,
Speaker:some specific, you know, like, and as
Speaker:we started to get a little bit bigger,
Speaker:I'm happy to do more CMO-type things.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:Like parts start to become part of
Speaker:like communities, and too, And then
Speaker:even though it hurts me sometimes, like
Speaker:we're doing more customer marketing,
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:you know what I mean?
Speaker:So like having to bring in, like, we
Speaker:can't spend every dollar in acquisition,
Speaker:you know, trying to do some things.
Speaker:So I've been focused recently
Speaker:more on like short-term demand.
Speaker:So like, as mark is building this
Speaker:content engine and this great
Speaker:website, it's getting more and
Speaker:more demand-driven through it.
Speaker:We still have these short-term needs.
Speaker:And so I've really been focused on that.
Speaker:I seem to be okay.
Speaker:You know, like and good at.
Speaker:kind of Drawing some of that,
Speaker:and I can use my title I know, I
Speaker:hate to say, I, sometimes I can
Speaker:use my title as VP of marketing
Speaker:here to bring other marketers in.
Speaker:[laughing] You know what I mean?
Speaker:It's just easier than, a, maybe an
Speaker:outbound rep or a sales person, or mark,
Speaker:even as a director of growth, you know, so
Speaker:trying to leverage that as much as I can.
Speaker:Um, and I will say we're supported
Speaker:by like a lot of people, you know?
Speaker:like so we do have support.
Speaker:We have, um, a gentleman by the name of
Speaker:Jerome , Okutho, who's our ops person he's
Speaker:out of Canada, found him through Upwork.
Speaker:Just amazing.
Speaker:Probably Spends 30 hours a week with us.
Speaker:Um, the folks at York IE, they're an
Speaker:investor in us, but also provide like
Speaker:PR and other marketing services, um, Al
Speaker:Gert, our designer, you know, and we're
Speaker:just starting to, now we're starting
Speaker:to partner with some new agencies
Speaker:too, to get some more support as well.
Speaker:Um, so it is a big, you know, it's the
Speaker:two of us, but it's like the six of
Speaker:us, you know, it's gonna, it's really
Speaker:gonna be, you know, probably four,
Speaker:four full-time equivalents, I'd say.
Speaker:Mark what did I miss in terms
Speaker:of how we break up work?
Speaker:I mean, mark ends up doing a
Speaker:lot more of the product stuff.
Speaker:You know, the things that really
Speaker:require that messaging and positioning.
Speaker:stuff.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I would say like, one of the big
Speaker:advantages that we have right now?
Speaker:And it's also gonna be the most
Speaker:difficult thing to maintain, but I,
Speaker:I know that we want to is the speed.
Speaker:So it's very easy to go to one
Speaker:person being Jason, whenever we
Speaker:need to discuss something and
Speaker:make a decision really quickly.
Speaker:And I think that's why we've been able
Speaker:to get so much good stuff out into the.
Speaker:market.
Speaker:Now as we grow in team size and
Speaker:we're definitely growing, like
Speaker:we don't want to slow down.
Speaker:So how do you maintain that?
Speaker:Like the short answer is I don't think
Speaker:we know just yet, but that's what we're
Speaker:gonna try and hold ourselves accountable.
Speaker:to, Um, is maintaining
Speaker:that speed and quality bar
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You figure that out.
Speaker:You should come back on here.
Speaker:We'll do another episode because I think
Speaker:every startup wants to know that right.
Speaker:Growing pains, like everyone says
Speaker:that we have growing pains and
Speaker:I think it's because of this.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Everyone loses that.
Speaker:Um, quick feedback loop and it's just
Speaker:like a super, Um, a super-powerful thing.
Speaker:And I think that like, if you've got that
Speaker:startup itch, it's part of it, right?
Speaker:It's what keeps you going back to
Speaker:like sign up for more startup problems
Speaker:It's like, you just want that speed.
Speaker:You want that ownership, that autonomy
Speaker:to just like own it and get it out
Speaker:the door, ship it, figure out results
Speaker:and innovate and move forward.
Speaker:That was one of my hardest problems
Speaker:at like the bigger companies I
Speaker:worked at was just the pace of
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:...things, So you know?
Speaker:like mark and I have been
Speaker:able to get out more.
Speaker:Content more campaigns with the two
Speaker:of us supported by a couple people.
Speaker:than I was able to get out than an entire
Speaker:I'll just call it out and, No, I won't.
Speaker:[ Laughing] I was wondering
Speaker:if you were gonna do that.
Speaker:Then, One of the three previous
Speaker:companies I worked at, like that had
Speaker:80 marketers, you know, 80 marketers.
Speaker:And the problem is all these and
Speaker:especially the culture at that.
Speaker:place, Like all of these
Speaker:just routes of approval,
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:approval decision.
Speaker:Like it just got hung up in there.
Speaker:Like we had enough people to do way more
Speaker:than we're doing now, but oh my goodness.
Speaker:Like, I can't tell you.
Speaker:And I would just get
Speaker:physically upset, you know?
Speaker:I mean, not in front of people, but I
Speaker:would be like, really just like how I just
Speaker:couldn't I just couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker:You know, I just got to the point
Speaker:where I was just like, I just can't.
Speaker:And you you also mentioned something
Speaker:else, like being able to see the
Speaker:impact of the things that you're doing.
Speaker:Like the, when you're working
Speaker:at a big organization,
Speaker:sometimes it's really hard to.
Speaker:like...
Speaker:So when I pull this lever, five
Speaker:dollars comes out of the back end.
Speaker:You know, like you don't really
Speaker:know what you're, you pulling
Speaker:that lever is doing, you know?
Speaker:And so even in a growth role at a small
Speaker:startup, like almost everything you do.
Speaker:Either has an im-...
Speaker:has some kind of impact, you know,
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...good or bad, but you could
Speaker:tell, and you could tell fast
Speaker:and iterate on that fast.
Speaker:And then well, it's kind
Speaker:of the right, right.
Speaker:thing for you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:My quick ah-ha...
Speaker:I want your hot takes from maybe
Speaker:both of you or maybe you collectively
Speaker:share the same, um, thoughts
Speaker:around in-house versus agency.
Speaker:It seems like you guys are, um,
Speaker:pro-agency, but I want like your hot
Speaker:take on why or like, at what point in
Speaker:your growth, maybe that will shift.
Speaker:This is how you know it was not rehearsed.
Speaker:So we'll see how close
Speaker:we are in agreement here.
Speaker:Um, having worked at an agency before,
Speaker:and then, you know, having worked at
Speaker:three different software companies
Speaker:since, uh, it's easy to see why you
Speaker:don't wanna go crazy about hiring
Speaker:people when there's so much uncertainty
Speaker:about the trajectory in the company.
Speaker:So I've been at companies
Speaker:where we hired way too quickly.
Speaker:Uh, we hired ahead of where
Speaker:the market was and then had to
Speaker:go through rounds of layoffs.
Speaker:And that sucked as an employee.
Speaker:And I know that for our leaders,
Speaker:it also sucked, as well.
Speaker:So the flip side of that is, you
Speaker:know, working with agencies, it's
Speaker:much easier to, um, you know, break up
Speaker:with an agency when you say, Hey, you
Speaker:know, we're just not at a point, you
Speaker:know, where we can continue working.
Speaker:Sometimes it's a 30-day out, sometimes
Speaker:it's a 60-day out, but that's a
Speaker:much easier decision to make than
Speaker:having to, you know, let people go.
Speaker:Yeah, I would pile on that.
Speaker:Like, um, I.
Speaker:am a fan of agencies and not
Speaker:at the same time, you know?
Speaker:So like, there's definitely a place for
Speaker:agencies we're in that place right now.
Speaker:Um, because we're growing fast
Speaker:and, and I wanna push that gas
Speaker:as fast as we can, but not to the
Speaker:point where we're hurting people.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:We're like hurting people's lives and
Speaker:that's like, when it comes into like
Speaker:hire or fire, like I'm not about that.
Speaker:I'd rather prove out that
Speaker:we need that position.
Speaker:first, Through agency or freelance and
Speaker:then roll it in once we've proven it.
Speaker:And once we've grown big enough.
Speaker:Um, the other thing too is
Speaker:we're only partnering with
Speaker:agencies that like are top-class.
Speaker:you know, what I mean?
Speaker:So, like, we're, we're not looking to
Speaker:save money by, you know what I mean?
Speaker:Like it's not like let's, let's find the
Speaker:cheapest resource we can to do this work.
Speaker:It's where's the highest quality,"
Speaker:And it has to be agencies that
Speaker:believe in the same thing that
Speaker:we believe in first and foremost.
Speaker:So like we first start there, like, do you
Speaker:believe in the way we're doing marketing?
Speaker:And can you supp-, how can
Speaker:you support us in that?
Speaker:And then it has to be agencies
Speaker:that can take a Corpus of work
Speaker:and get it done without having to
Speaker:a- ask mark and I all the time.
Speaker:Like, what about this?
Speaker:What about this?
Speaker:Direct me on this direct me on this
Speaker:So, they've gotta be like people that
Speaker:we would hire basically internally.
Speaker:Now the thing I look out for in agencies
Speaker:is this is all I've never seen this not
Speaker:happen, except, Honestly by agency York,
Speaker:they're doing a really good job on this.
Speaker:Usually it's like this, you get all kinds
Speaker:of attention and all kinds of like great
Speaker:work and then just fucking, just "Whoo."
Speaker:and then all of a sudden they
Speaker:think they put, you on autopilot.
Speaker:They think that they're in.
Speaker:the, just like, all the...
Speaker:like, no, that will not work.
Speaker:So, Hey agencies starting to work
Speaker:with us, I'm going to send you this
Speaker:podcast so you can listen to it.
Speaker:[Laughing] So don't fizzle
Speaker:out at any point or else.
Speaker:We'll be done.
Speaker:like, you've gotta have
Speaker:constantly new ideas constantly.
Speaker:like, Figure it thinking that
Speaker:this is your company to grow.
Speaker:I just uh, haven't seen it yet
Speaker:again, York actually is doing a
Speaker:pretty good job, Kate, nice job.
Speaker:Keeping the, the gas going, but
Speaker:I have rarely seen like agencies
Speaker:really keep the gas going that long.
Speaker:So I'm hoping, I'm hoping to see
Speaker:different Diff- different with
Speaker:the ones we're partnering with.
Speaker:The the one thing that I would add
Speaker:is I think there are things that I'm
Speaker:more comfortable letting agencies.
Speaker:do, And oftentimes that's the, the,
Speaker:those are the types of things that may
Speaker:not require a total understanding of
Speaker:the business, uh, because when you're
Speaker:leaning on agencies to do things
Speaker:that require like a really solid
Speaker:understanding of the business, I'd
Speaker:rather have that position in-house.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, that's a great point too.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's definitely roles
Speaker:where you need that.
Speaker:You want that Knowledge,
Speaker:you know what I mean?
Speaker:That they just get just to to
Speaker:stay in the company and not to.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I agree with that.
Speaker:And I think those positions might even
Speaker:shift a little bit per company, but
Speaker:I could definitely agree with that.
Speaker:Like there's certain things here
Speaker:too, that we would just never even
Speaker:consider outsourcing because it
Speaker:just needs to be owned in-house.
Speaker:It makes so much more sense uh, barbecues
Speaker:you have to be tied to the product or
Speaker:like our product is constantly being
Speaker:updated or changes or tweaks or whatever.
Speaker:And so it's like being
Speaker:closer to that feedback loop.
Speaker:It's just More critical than
Speaker:trying to use with outsourcing
Speaker:Like, con-, like, to get specific
Speaker:content is one of those things.
Speaker:We talk to big content agencies out there.
Speaker:Uh, we're having our third, uh, full-time
Speaker:hire join us in a couple weeks here.
Speaker:Who's going to be our our head of content.
Speaker:And that is not something that I
Speaker:would feel comfortable, you know,
Speaker:completely handing off to an agency
Speaker:just because I think it really
Speaker:does require an understanding of
Speaker:your business and your audience.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:No, I agree with that.
Speaker:I agree with that for sure.
Speaker:So we talk about.
Speaker:outsourcing.
Speaker:We talk about a little bit about metadata.
Speaker:Um, obviously you guys are running
Speaker:demand gen campaigns, so I would
Speaker:love to segue into campaigns.
Speaker:You all have run for yourself for your
Speaker:own business that you found success with.
Speaker:And then.
Speaker:If you're willing and you'd like to
Speaker:be, what did you use, Jason earlier?
Speaker:You said self-deprecating, if
Speaker:you're willing if you'd like to
Speaker:be self-deprecating, which seems
Speaker:to be on-brand for you guys.
Speaker:I would love to also know
Speaker:about your failures as well.
Speaker:[ Laughing] It is.
Speaker:For some campaigns you've run that
Speaker:maybe just like, didn't turn out
Speaker:as good as you thought they would.
Speaker:Like, and the one that pains
Speaker:me 'cause I keep talk-, I
Speaker:have, talked about it forever.
Speaker:is conversation ads.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:Like conversation ads have just been like
Speaker:the tactic that is just above and beyond.
Speaker:Everything else we've run from a demand.
Speaker:Gen perspective has been the go-to.
Speaker:Now I will also say that because of
Speaker:the success of that campaign, we've
Speaker:dumped a lot of our money into it.
Speaker:Like a big percent of our working budget.
Speaker:We've put into that campaign because of
Speaker:its unit economics and how it works out.
Speaker:So we haven't put a bunch of
Speaker:money behind other campaigns.
Speaker:So I'll just say conversation
Speaker:ads for an entire.
Speaker:like, Full bundle ad
Speaker:experience into a demo.
Speaker:Like it's just worked wonders for us.
Speaker:We've tried other flavors, we've
Speaker:done a scavenger hunt conversation
Speaker:ad which was kind of fun, but you
Speaker:know, uh, a little bit less targeted.
Speaker:We we're doing one with you right now.
Speaker:Kaylee, we're trying to test that out.
Speaker:You know, what does it look like
Speaker:coming from the customers' perspective?
Speaker:So we're trying new things in conversation
Speaker:ads, but we've done a lot there.
Speaker:We recently, and I'll I'll
Speaker:let mark talk about this one,
Speaker:but we've recently started.
Speaker:to Put money behind our content.
Speaker:So we finally like that was our plan
Speaker:all along is really took people to
Speaker:metadata through our content and,
Speaker:and not just solely relying on
Speaker:organic SEO to make that happen.
Speaker:Now I'll talk about a failure real quick.
Speaker:It's a pretty basic one.
Speaker:Um, but I think it was very clear.
Speaker:Um, we, we ran gift card campaigns
Speaker:through conversation ads, right?
Speaker:So get a $100 gift card.
Speaker:If you take a demo you know, if
Speaker:you meet the qualification which
Speaker:you're in, take a demo with us.
Speaker:We tried to run that through two
Speaker:other channels that failed miserably.
Speaker:We tried to run it just through a standard
Speaker:ad targeted, still to the same people.
Speaker:But you know, they stayed in their
Speaker:feed versus in a LinkedIn message.
Speaker:Like maybe that's the difference.
Speaker:It's not coming from a person it's coming
Speaker:from a company like some black box.
Speaker:we tried it in email too.
Speaker:And that one did come from a company,
Speaker:but didn't work out, you know?
Speaker:So there was something about for that
Speaker:one, the combination of the offer and
Speaker:the medium, You know, that somehow really
Speaker:worked versus just the, it definitely
Speaker:wasn't just the offer that's for sure.
Speaker:So that was one of the failures.
Speaker:we learned.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I've got another failure on the offer
Speaker:front and and I think, uh, again, this
Speaker:is one that I came up with and I thought
Speaker:that it was at the time, one of the
Speaker:most creative offers that we had come
Speaker:up with and I was ready for this just to
Speaker:knock it out of the park and it tanked.
Speaker:And that offer was, uh, a subscription,
Speaker:an annual subscription to uh, DGMG.
Speaker:So we ran it past him Dave
Speaker:Gerhardt was cool with it.
Speaker:I mean, it was free
Speaker:marketing for him at the end.
Speaker:of the day, Uh, and it failed miserably.
Speaker:I thought it was a very creative
Speaker:offer for our audience and we
Speaker:launched it and we looked at the
Speaker:data and it just did not land so.
Speaker:no way conversation ad,
Speaker:or was it in the feed?
Speaker:Well, we tried a...
Speaker:in the feed as well.
Speaker:Yeah, we did.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:Um, so yeah, so that was interesting,
Speaker:but also knowing that you're
Speaker:gonna, um, bomb, you know, with
Speaker:quite a few of these offers,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:it's okay.
Speaker:Uh, as long as you're still finding,
Speaker:you know, good offers every now
Speaker:and then, and that's something
Speaker:that we're trying to figure out.
Speaker:now, Uh, with our own platform
Speaker:of, you know, call it product-like
Speaker:growth, call it whatever you want.
Speaker:Like, what is some stripped-down, um,
Speaker:platform kind of add-on, if you will,
Speaker:that we can get people hooked in the door.
Speaker:Uh, so we'll see what comes of that,
Speaker:but that's kind of where our heads at.
Speaker:now.
Speaker:I'm very shocked.
Speaker:Um, I feel like I need to like pick
Speaker:up my jaw off the floor about the
Speaker:DGMG offering, being a total failure.
Speaker:It goes to show, and I say this all
Speaker:the time, like internally, we also
Speaker:obviously are selling to People who
Speaker:have a similar title to myself and
Speaker:to the rest of us here on this call.
Speaker:And so I'll always say my opinion
Speaker:and I'm like, but sample size of one
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's just my opinion.
Speaker:So that's why I'm, like I say
Speaker:something and then I just back it
Speaker:up with my like, disclaimer that
Speaker:I'm like, I'm just one person.
Speaker:Like I'm not speaking for the masses.
Speaker:So, um, we put together offers here
Speaker:too as well that uh, don't take off.
Speaker:And it's because.
Speaker:I am a sample size of one, right?
Speaker:Like I would have totally fallen
Speaker:for your DGMG offer, but the
Speaker:mass population did not agree.
Speaker:Thanks for not converting.
Speaker:Yeah, no.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I'm [inaudible 00:29:54] a customer Mark.
Speaker:You didn't serve me an
Speaker:ad [crosstalk 00:29:55].
Speaker:[Laughing] So I think the other
Speaker:thing that we are, I'd say somewhat
Speaker:of in a lucky spot to be in, but
Speaker:I would definitely advise other
Speaker:companies to do the same thing as
Speaker:we have a customer advisory board.
Speaker:And what we do is for a lot
Speaker:of this, I mean, you know,
Speaker:this, um, Kaylee, from being.
on it:We'll tease out things to
on it:that cab and get initial feedback.
on it:And, you know, there are times where
on it:we think we have a great idea and they
on it:see it and they're like, you know what?
on it:It's just not that strong.
on it:And that's great because we
on it:learned that without having to put
on it:any you know, dollars behind it
on it:and make that mistake in market.
on it:So definitely would suggest anyone to
on it:kind of start up a CAB at their company.
on it:I would agree with that too.
on it:And I think the way that you guys
on it:run your cab is quite unique.
on it:Not that I've had an opportunity
on it:in my career to be on a handful of
on it:ads, because I definitely have it.
on it:Um, but I think it's like tight
on it:enough to where like we've talked
on it:about in other threads too, right?
on it:Like your marketing feedback loop's
on it:really tight, but your cab is too where
on it:it's like a small group of really, really
on it:dedicated humans that believe in you guys
on it:and believe in your product, And that
on it:feedback loop is honest, but also quick so
on it:that you guys can get something of meaning
on it:or something of value and then just ship
on it:it or can it, if it's not going to work.
on it:Yeah.
on it:Followup question Jason, to a
on it:point that you made earlier about
on it:content running content in your ads.
on it:Does this mean that you guys have not
on it:been running a content offer until now?
on it:You wanted to wait until like your
on it:content rea- reached a certain threshold
on it:or a certain quality before you
on it:started running that in your media mix?
on it:We would test, the, you
on it:know, we would do some.
on it:So like a big piece of content.
on it:We would definitely put
on it:some promotion behind.
on it:So when we did our benchmark report
on it:earlier this year, that was a.
on it:big Content piece and then
on it:supported by a pretty big campaign.
on it:Yeah, talk about that.
on it:Talk about what that was and
on it:how you took it to market.
on it:'cause I thought it was pretty brilliant.
on it:a software that helps behavior
on it:marketers do advertising.
on it:We had a lot of data, right.
on it:About how ads perform on
on it:Facebook and LinkedIn that
on it:all run through our platform.
on it:And so.
on it:Um, what we were able to do is take our,
on it:all of our platforms, data, anonymize
on it:it from a customer's perspective, we
on it:turned the customer name into an industry
on it:sub-industry, number of employees, you
on it:know, like they'll, the enriched data,
on it:not a company, but not their name.
on it:Um, and just exposed all the data.
on it:I actually put it into a Google
on it:data senior report and just
on it:really gave it to everybody.
on it:Ungated I think that was
on it:un-gated, yeah, I think.
on it:Was it mark?
on it:Yeah.
on it:Yeah.
on it:Most of it.
on it:It was rarely do we do
on it:something that's gated.
on it:but.
on it:Um, and it was, a real, I was a little
on it:nervous about that because you don't
on it:know like, what you want is you want
on it:that to be a lead gen activity as
on it:well, because you want people to look
on it:at it and say, wow, look at these
on it:other customers in my same industry.
on it:And the CPOs or cost-per-opportunity,
on it:or opportunity size or
on it:whatever they're getting.
on it:Uh, but you also run the risk
on it:of somebody coming in and being
on it:like, well, wait, like these are
on it:in averages, you know what I mean?
on it:So I've got like outliers on both
on it:sides of the average It's not as
on it:good as I'm getting, but like in
on it:reality, we could really beat them.
on it:Or not, you know, not them,
on it:but beat their average.
on it:And so it was a little
on it:risky, I don't, I don't know.
on it:Cause we don't gate our content.
on it:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
on it:I don't know.
on it:Like, do we have opportunities
on it:associated with it Were people
on it:downloading it and then coming in later?
on it:I don't know.
on it:But, um, but it got a lot of good
on it:press, you know, nobody had ever
on it:really released data like that.
on it:And we plan on doing it, either
on it:answering interesting data points.
on it:Using our data licensing our data to
on it:companies that can make sense of you
on it:know, have, like maybe more resources
on it:that can make sense of it, and turn it
on it:into you know, other research reports,
on it:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
on it:you know, we're looking at
on it:other ways of, of using it.
on it:But, um, but yeah, so, but kind
on it:of coming back around on the
on it:content side, that was the kind
on it:of content we promoted before now.
on it:We're actually putting money
on it:behind even just like blog posts or
on it:that mainly blog posts, you know?
on it:So we've got this expert content series
on it:that Mark's worked on called no fluffs.
on it:Given", And we've had like
on it:experts in their fields.
on it:You know what I mean?
on it:Like come and write about
on it:what they're experts on.
on it:and on RBF we put it on our
on it:website and ungated, but really
on it:popular and really useful stuff.
on it:And so we promote that stuff.
on it:And really the intention is if
on it:our potential buyers are out there
on it:seeing our ads about content,
on it:that's going to help them again.
on it:We're building our relationship.
on it:We're building the trust.
on it:We're Aiming for a seat at the table.
on it:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
on it:We're not aiming for you to see
on it:that content and be like, oh wow.
on it:They have an interesting
on it:perspective on gating content.
on it:Let's buy their software,
on it:but they haven an interesting
on it:perspective on gaining content.
on it:Oh, they're smart.
on it:You know?
on it:Oh, I see.
on it:They have an interesting
on it:perspective on attribution on,
on it:oh, they're actually helping me.
on it:They're a demand gen company, but they're
on it:helping me with product marketing.
on it:You know, they're helping me
on it:write better headlines, you
on it:know, like who are these people?
on it:And then for that to just kind
on it:of seed in the mind, With enough,
on it:like sprinkling of who we are.
on it:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
on it:...So it's not just like, oh, these
on it:guys are a media company, like
on it:helping B2B marketers, but like
on it:sprinkling who we are and what we do.
on it:And then when it's like,
on it:oh, you know, what?
on it:I'm I'm not, I'm not making my demand
on it:gen goals or like, I'm just unhappy with
on it:the way that demand base is working.
on it:pew.
on it:Well, This is getting bold.
on it:They come to us.
on it:And now all of a sudden we see
on it:organic demo [inaudible 00:35:02]
on it:from the website rise that we
on it:can't attribute to anything else.
on it:And so that's really
on it:what we're looking for.
on it:I mean, this came up last Friday, Um,
on it:a senior director of demand gen at
on it:uh, a series B company that everybody
on it:listening would recognize told me,
on it:you guys have the first blog that I've
on it:seen that helps with tactical things
on it:that I can do to run better campaigns.
on it:And he was interested in picking up,
on it:you know, conversational kind of data.
on it:Exactly.
on it:So, That happens over time
on it:is building relationships.
on it:He's the exact kind of person
on it:that we would, you know, we see
on it:could benefit from using metadata
on it:and what he reached out and pinged you
on it:like on LinkedIn or something random.
on it:Right.
on it:Yep, yep.
on it:Which always happens.
on it:Right.
on it:so then you have like these random
on it:screenshots you've taken from
on it:people right around the internet
on it:that, have, like right, that
on it:will never show up in Salesforce
on it:That would never show up in
on it:the Salesforce report, yeah.
on it:...where you're like, look, this
on it:thing is working and here's these
on it:random five screenshots that prove
on it:Yeah.
on it:"...that it's working.
on it:and that's, like, Our new form of
on it:attribution that CFOs do not care about.
on it:Yep.
on it:Um, we don't have a CFO, so I can
on it:say that like CFOs do not care
on it:to see your random screenshots.
on it:[ Laughing] Yeah.
on it:Um, however, that's like
on it:what, you know, is working.
on it:But I think, like how we've done it is.
on it:We use those as the leading indicators
on it:whenever we're feeling unsure that,
on it:Hey, we're seeing these things, uh,
on it:these comments from people that are
on it:really, really positive, That's when
on it:the light bulb goes on for us that,
on it:Hey, you should double down on this and
on it:continue doing it so that you can then
on it:start to prove it out quantitatively.
on it:'Cause, like it takes time and you're
on it:not able to prove it out quantitatively.
on it:Right?
on it:away.
on it:Exactly.
on it:Exactly.
on it:And I think too, that like, um, Sometimes
on it:hearing radio silence is also very
on it:telling we've done that a few times.
on it:where we launched something
on it:and it's like, oh, wow.
on it:normally I get a couple likes, like
on it:three likes, maybe and then this,
on it:this post did, didn't take off.
on it:Yeah.
on it:So no one cares about what we're saying.
on it:Cool.
on it:Check that off the radar.
on it:Like we don't need our...
on it:You know, sometimes we start on
on it:LinkedIn, specifically, organic
on it:LinkedIn, we'll try something right.
on it:testing the market.
on it:that way.
on it:If it gets a lot of buzz and reception
on it:shares, comments, whatever, and like
on it:strikes good conversations then cool.
on it:Like maybe we should turn this
on it:into something greater, do
on it:a blog post around it, etc.
on it:Or if it sits there in radio
on it:silence, no one likes it.
on it:And it's like not showing up in
on it:anyone's feed, then it's like, cool.
on it:cool.
on it:Maybe we save some time and
on it:reallocate resources elsewhere.
on it:Um, because obviously that's
on it:not a pain point for anybody.
on it:Um, but back to you all's point about, um,
on it:Putting things out on the market as well.
on it:It's like they say that um, only
on it:1% or whatever of your actual tan
on it:is in buying mode at any time.
on it:So it's obvi-...
on it:it seems very obvious, like why
on it:isn't everyone marketing this way?
on it:Um, but I think it all goes
on it:back to like attribution.
on it:They have specific goals
on it:and that's the only way that
on it:they can really measure them.
on it:You know what I mean is, yeah.
on it:And so if they don't gate the content.
on it:I mean, there's, There's
on it:just a transition period.
on it:Yep.
on it:You know what I mean?
on it:There's a transition period from like
on it:doing the old-school way of gate-
on it:gating the content, getting the leads,
on it:seeing how it matriculates down,
on it:seeing these really low percentages.
on it:But There's this faith-based period.
on it:know what I mean of
on it:like, and I've seen it-
on it:It requires trust in your
on it:Yes.
on it:...CEO to trust face it.
on it:I think, yeah, and faith, you know,
on it:and some amount of faith because you're
on it:basically saying, yeah, we're going
on it:from this whole way of like capturing
on it:the lead and seeing how it goes
on it:through and the percentages, etc., But
on it:we're gonna do, we're gonna get less.
on it:In the top of the funnel we're
on it:not gonna know where they all
on it:come from you know what I mean?
on it:Right.
on it:they're all gonna be, they're
on it:all gonna be organic or direct.
on it:So like good luck they are though.
on it:Yep.
on it:Like that is exactly it.
on it:Right?
on it:Yep, Yep.
on it:And your actual
on it:yeah.
on it:top-line number is gonna go.
on it:down.
on it:Yeah.
on it:But you've gotta get through that.
on it:There's like that.
on it:because then at the other side
on it:of it, once you make it through
on it:it, then it's like, God, yes.
on it:Like this is okay, this is the
on it:right, the right kind of leads
on it:coming through the right channels.
on it:But most of the time.
on it:They don't make.
on it:And also here's the other part they talk
on it:about a lot, the sales org has actually
on it:been overstaffed for this kind of motion.
on it:And so it becomes this like, you know,
on it:almost like you have to fire salespeople
on it:to move into this other better natural
on it:motion because in the previous one,
on it:sales is doing a lot of the marketing.
on it:you know, you're just getting a name of
on it:somebody and then you're handing it over.
on it:And then sales is sending them
on it:content and they're giving them this
on it:and they're asking them questions
on it:and they're doing your job for you.
on it:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
on it:So when you move away from that you're
on it:like, well, I wanna give you better
on it:leads, but you're overstaffed for it.
on it:It's just a hard ki-...
on it:It's like a, it's an
on it:impossible conversation.
on it:because then the marketer who's
on it:trying to work with the head of sales.
on it:who's a type, a usually like very
on it:strong personality, like, Hey, maybe
on it:too many salespeople on your team.
on it:No, I don't show me that.
on it:You know, like, and then it's a
on it:chicken-egg thing, show me, you're
on it:gonna give me better leads first.
on it:And I guess you could do that.
on it:But then salespeople are like, well,
on it:we're not doing enough activities," And
on it:then, so it's just this interesting,
on it:like biological entity, you know, that
on it:makes it harder to shift away, but
on it:you gotta do it you gotta go through a
on it:couple sales cycles, you know, of time.
on it:And then if it doesn't work, you
on it:know, the, the people studying...
on it:the thing that people get worried about.
on it:And I've sat through this too, is that
on it:if I focus on this other way and I leave
on it:this other one alone, six months later,
on it:I'm not gonna have any of this and we're
on it:gonna be you know, even worse situation.
on it:I just have, I don't think that's,
on it:I don't think that's the case.
on it:You're in a worse situ-...
on it:you're in like the worst
on it:situation now, you know?
on it:And so, you know, now
on it:you can only get better.
on it:all right, Jason, with the
on it:motivational speaking, mark, do
on it:you have thoughts on that too?
on it:I would say, Like one thing is, and
on it:it's not to say like everything is
on it:all, you know, rainbows and sunshine
on it:here, as it relates to, you know,
on it:the campaigns that we're running.
on it:and Us hitting out targets.
on it:Like there are times where we feel, or
on it:we notice that, Hey, according to demand
on it:bottle, we're actually slipping a bit.
on it:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
on it:So we'll go all hands on deck for you
on it:know, probably two weeks-ish, at a time
on it:and knowingly drop some of the other stuff
on it:that we were making progress with to make
on it:sure that we get back either on track
on it:or ahead of where we're supposed to be.
on it:Uh, because we're always
on it:looking at that demand model.
on it:And if you slip too far, then you
on it:get to the point that Jason's talking
on it:about, where it's the point of.
on it:no return.
on it:Yeah, no, that's a great point too.
on it:Um, because I feel like, yeah, it's
on it:really easy to talk about the upside.
on it:Right.
on it:But in reality, it's like,
on it:look, no model is perfect.
on it:Right.
on it:And so we all have months where
on it:we're like, "No, not gonna
on it:meet our goals this month.
on it:Like will you do a quick pivot, what's
on it:our [inaudible 00:41:02] for not?
on it:Like what's our quick win
on it:or what can we optimize?
on it:Or, you know,
on it:Yeah.
on it:...what ball did we completely
on it:forget about and drop because we
on it:were over here looking at the next
on it:shiny thing and like, forgot to do
on it:these things that, you know, we're
on it:supposed to do every month or whatever.
on it:Um, and I think that's
on it:just like part of reality.
on it:Judging by how good Jason's
on it:hair looks right now.
on it:You can tell we're in a
on it:good spot with our numbers.
on it:[Laughing] Whenever we're
on it:not hitting out numbers.
on it:It tends to look a little
on it:all over the place.
on it:That's Like your real-time
on it:pulse, like almost
on it:it's more [inaudible 00:41:27]
on it:Brown there's more dark brown.
on it:[Laughing] Yeah.
on it:Yeah, It's more dark brownish.
on it:Yeah.
on it:when we're not doing too-
on it:Oh, then it's good.
on it:It's like, oh.
on it:Sometimes I get on a call too.
on it:And I I, if the first time I've
on it:seen myself in like the first call
on it:I get on I'm like, oh, good...
on it:you can't take me seriously on this call.
on it:So give me a minute.
on it:Or you're just like all of a
on it:sudden your camera goes off
on it:and you're like, okay, hold on.
on it:Let me get myself together.
on it:Oh, that's good.
on it:It's like a real-life mood ring,
on it:Yeah.
on it:um, based on your hair.
on it:I'm okay with that.
on it:I'll start, I'll start doing a
on it:better read of the room next time.
on it:and make sure your hair is in check.
on it:Um, okay.
on it:I always like to wrap with this question.
on it:So.
on it:who's another marketer that you're
on it:following in the space that you've
on it:read their book, that you've attended
on it:oh, through a podcast or something
on it:that they're putting on that you've
on it:learned something from that you'd
on it:share with others that are listening
on it:so that they can go and take a
on it:listen or follow them on social.
on it:Mark has to go first.
on it:I'm really bad at this.
on it:Oh no [laughing].
on it:Yeah.
on it:I'm gonna give like a, kind of a
on it:basic answer to this question, but,
on it:uh, obviously awesome with April.
on it:Dunford helped me so much when I was
on it:going through the positioning and
on it:messaging, uh, part of earlier this year.
on it:So that's huge.
on it:And then I think the Dave Gerhardt book
on it:that he's coming out with in the fall
on it:Founder's brand, I think, or founder,
on it:brand, I'm pretty pumped for that one.
on it:I'm gonna cheat I'll, I'll first
on it:start by saying I don't listen to.
on it:Enough podcasts or read enough things.
on it:And so that's something I'm
on it:actually trying to get better at.
on it:And mark has seen me trying to progre-,
on it:Mark has seen me actually try to do that.
on it:because every once in a while, I'll
on it:listen to a new podcast and he'll know,
on it:because I have like three new ideas.
on it:He's like, "Ah, you're listening to a
on it:fucking new podcast again, aren't you?
on it:So I need to get better about that,
on it:but I did, actually, I really enjoy it.
on it:Like I'm listening to DG's podcast and
on it:I got like a lot of things out of it.
on it:And so I think I just need to pick and
on it:choose the right ones, but I would say.
on it:Like anything that helps you get closer
on it:to revenue, you know what I mean?
on it:Like, so anything that I'm listening to,
on it:you know, that's just like a marketer
on it:that takes on like revenue-related goals.
on it:I'll listen to all the time, but
on it:like, I'm trying to get, I think
on it:really more specifically anyone
on it:that can talk about how brand really
on it:impacts demand, I think that's just.
on it:like...
on it:People talked about it a lot.
on it:There's some people that understand it.
on it:And then a lot of us like me, the ops like
on it:people that grew up in the ops world they,
on it:they have to like really understand that.
on it:And I'm just starting to understand it a
on it:lot more like just how critical brand is.
on it:And so I'm trying to listen to anybody
on it:that like, has a perspective on that.
on it:yeah, 'cause it's hard, right?
on it:Especially like even me in my
on it:career, I've been a performance
on it:marketer, my entire career.
on it:So like two plus two always equals four.
on it:And in this game of brand
on it:equals revenue, Right.
on it:It's like a weird mind-shift-
on it:Yep.
on it:...where you're trying to adapt to,
on it:like, you cannot rely on the numbers.
on it:Attribution is basically a joke.
on it:Like you're gonna have to get over it.
on it:And like Jason said, have a little bit of
on it:faith or whatever it is you need to have.
on it:to just, like, Suck it up for a period
on it:and then it'll land you in a better spot
on it:on the other side, but it's so hard.
on it:Um, and especially like I've always
on it:been the numbers gal, like in any
on it:org I've landed in somehow I've
on it:always been the numbers person.
on it:And here we are of course, in line with
on it:how you guys are doing demand gen and how
on it:you're running your marketing, org, and
on it:We are doing very similar structure and
on it:it's just very hard, but it's so worth it.
on it:And it, it's, it's just not
on it:two plus two equals four.
on it:And I don't know how else to explain it.
on it:Yep, it's not.
on it:And so like, those of us.
on it:that Start on that side of the brain.
on it:You know what I mean?
on it:Like we've gotta Start to pull more
on it:on our intuition on our gut, on like
on it:the intangibles and really understand
on it:that that has just as big, if not a
on it:bigger impact as these like little
on it:digital interactions you know.
on it:it does.
on it:Right.
on it:And it, And it all compounds.
on it:And I think too, that like in this
on it:role in marketing, in this way, as
on it:opposed to marketing in like the
on it:waterfall model world that we used
on it:to live in really just shows that you
on it:have to be close to your customers.
on it:Like closer than ever to your customers.
on it:like even us in this world where
on it:we're marketing to people who
on it:have similar titles to ourselves,
on it:we're still a small sample size.
on it:And so, as we've talked about in the
on it:rest of the episode, it's like, even
on it:if you think your gut says one thing,
on it:vetting it with a smaller population
on it:of other people who look and think like
on it:you or have similar responsibilities
on it:within their role will get you further.
on it:The closer you are to them on a recurring
on it:basis, than you just trying to get,
on it:check and guess your way through it.
on it:Quick plugs on where
on it:people can follow you guys.
on it:If they wanna follow
on it:you after the episode,
on it:Jason's gonna give his TikTok handle,
on it:Oh, we're doing TikTok?
on it:We're not [laughing].
on it:Do it.
on it:Definitely not
on it:I don't have one.
on it:Yeah, this is a...
on it:just LinkedIn.
on it:Yeah, I'm on, I'm on
on it:LinkedIn all the time.
on it:Uh, I'm on LinkedIn too.
on it:And then you'll see me lurking around
on it:in, uh, DGMG or some good Content
on it:with John Bonini sometimes too.
on it:Beautiful.
on it:Awesome.
on it:Well, thank you both
on it:so much for your time.
on it:This has been a lovely chat.
on it:I feel like there are tons of
on it:great takeaways that people can go.
on it:that are actually actual, They can
on it:implement within their orgs today.
on it:So thank you.
on it:Thank you.
