Tiwa Topia made a whole stained‑glass thesis about how to put Black skin into stained glass, using experimental techniques so light can do the heavy lifting. Tiwa flipped the usual “light-to-dark” idea and sculpted where the light hits to get depth and warmth for darker skin tones — clever, stubborn, and gorgeous.

Tiwa’s show is at The Yards (at the Public Market) with a closing ceremony on Saturday the 26th from 11am–2pm (go see it in person — photos don’t do the light justice), and you can follow their work on Instagram at @awit.glass (Tiwa backwards dot glass).

We chat about how stained glass is both a craft (all those tools and cuts and lead) and an art (how the sun becomes the final artist), why texture and double‑rolled glass like Kokomo or Youghiogheny give that depth, and how being self‑taught meant a lot of trial, error, and obsession.

We also dig into the story behind the work: Yoruba/Ifa references, family proverbs about Agemo, and the messy love of celebrating culture while calling out the parts that exclude people.

Oh, and we nerd out about glass news — Kokomo stopping production and UK safety rules around lead — because materials and maker safety actually matter when you care this much. Come for the color and the craft, stay for the big, complicated, joyful conversation Tiwa’s putting into glass.

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Visit joebeanroasters.com to get fresh roasted specialty coffee either by the bag or with a Perpetual Joy subscription!

Well, that music means it's time for another episode of Just can't not.

This is our first episode post the Rochester Fringe Festival.

So thank you to everybody for supporting all of the artists that we interviewed.

It matters so much to us that you support the artists that are doing amazing work in the community, bringing amazing work to you.

And you know, this is my opportunity to stretch my legs and try out different kind of interviewing.

So I'm here with another guest who reached out.

Guest, why don't you introduce yourself?

Hello.

Hello.

I am Tiwa.

I am a. I'm a craftsman.

I'm am an artist.

I do a lot of things.

But right now I'm.

I'm going.

I'm going to talk about my work in stained glass.

Yeah.

So first off, I just want to mention that t's got to show up at the yards running through end of September.

The closing show is actually this Saturday.

Okay.

So we're going to put this out, I think on Thursday.

So that'll be out then.

So one congratulations on putting it together.

A whole exhibition.

Let's just talk a little bit about specifically, you know, the show and what you've brought to that.

And then we're going to talk about stained glass in general.

So once you're talking about and I'm going to ask you to pronounce it so I can do this right.

So this is the festival.

Can you pronounce that for me please?

Joyo.

A joyo.

A joyo.

Beautiful.

So this looks one fascinating.

I saw some of the work, really stunning.

But can you talk about like why, why this subject as your, you know, chosen direction with stained glass?

Of course I might help around chronologically a bit.

But this project, I think I.

In my head, it's sort of a thesis of not just craftsmanship but also experimental methods to arrive at an answer, which is how do we get black skin into stained glass?

So one thing I want to do, especially since I'm self taught, as for this exhibition, I wanted to do something that showed off my skills as a stained glass artist.

Then I wanted to show off my ability to think outside of the box and create something that people have never seen before.

A different technique on how to get dark skin like mine into stained glass.

And then finally I wanted to tell a story that was reflective of me and my culture, but not in a way that idealized it.

And that all sort of culminates into a story that my mom told me.

She'd always tell me this proverb in Yoruba, I can't speak Good Yoruba.

So I'll just say it in English.

But she would say that Agemo, which is a masquerade, Agemo gives birth to a smaller masquerade that dances.

Right.

Agemo dances, and it gives birth to a smaller masquerade that dances.

And she'd always say, the baby Agemo doesn't just dance because the older Agemo dances, it also has to learn how to dance.

Yeah, that's sort of her way of saying, I'm an adult.

I figured it out.

That doesn't mean you figured it out.

You also have to learn how to dance.

You also have to figure it out.

Well, and I think that's also a beautiful, beautiful way of describing that, you know, your passions can inspire the next generation or somebody else that, like, following your own passions has value.

Yeah.

It's not a separate thing from raising the next or inspiring others.

Exactly.

It is tied together, which is something I think, you know, often gets lost in the complexities of day to day life, is you're not following your passions.

And those stories, those passing down the passions, those passing down stories is what led me down the rabbit hole.

I was raised Christian.

I consider myself a religious right now, which gives me the freedom to explore religion from, like an anthropological lens.

And I'm really exploring the religion of my people, the Yoruba people, ifa.

And Agemo is one of the deities in ifa.

And that exploring ifa, it can get really, just like exploring any religion, it can get really rose colored lenses.

You can look at all the good, really nice exotic parts and it could be great, but you start to notice things, drops of, oh, this is actually, this is fun for me because I am no male presenting and I am an Yoruba man, so I get all the fun parts.

But for example, at the Agemo festival, when the masquerade that's supposed to depict Agemo, the, The deity, the orisha, comes out, women aren't allowed to be outside.

And that stark night and day between women, both being the people who told me this story, you know, me learning it from her mom, who learns it from her mom, you know the saying.

And then, while being the vehicle to move tradition and culture forward through the generations are also denied the same access to certain rights that men are not given to.

And I wanted to talk about that.

I wanted to talk about my religion and my culture in a way that showed both the festival, the fun parts, but also what needs the people who need to be discriminated against in order for this festival to carry on.

Yeah, I Mean, that's.

It's kind of the way I like to live in the world is in the gray areas of complexity.

I find it kind of boring to live in the clarity of one thing is right, one thing is wrong.

That in between of this is the reality of the situation.

One, we want to be better.

Yeah.

And two, there is a.

There's something special about understanding the complexity of that situation.

That these are honored people in so many ways and then excluded from the core, you know, core traditions in many ways as well.

Yeah.

And I felt it was important to tell this story in a way that brought not just respect to my culture, respect to my people, but also a sense of realism and to the situation at hand, that it doesn't matter which religion, whether it's Christianity, ifa, Islam, be.

See a different way that men and women are treated in the religions, and we see that being moved forward.

Everybody, I think, has a tendency to idealize the background that they came from.

I think that's very true, but that's.

Not really true love for your background, ethnicity, culture.

I think talking about the parts that make life difficult for our community members and trying to challenge that, that's what really shows love for our backgrounds.

Yeah.

I think it's.

It's honoring, like, it's honoring the.

Yes.

There's value in the togetherness that a common.

A common belief brings.

Right.

There's beauty to that.

There's joy, there's celebration.

But I think that's like, hey, you know, I agree that sometimes the difficult conversations, that's part of love.

That's part of the challenge.

If you don't.

If you're not challenged, like, are you really loving somebody to the most?

I think that's what it is.

This entire exhibition was just me having that difficult conversation out loud with a lot of people all at once.

I think stained glass is such a beautiful medium to introduce ideas to, because the light goes through the piece.

The light's the final artist, and it goes through the piece, and the whole thing's coming at you all at once.

So you have to, like, sit there and form a reaction right there.

And it's usually awe.

Cause it's like.

It's so, you know, overpowering, I think, for sure.

And I think also stained glass, like, as it really is one of those combination creative pursuits.

When you mentioned craftsmanship, it is definitively a craft.

Yeah.

But it is also an art form.

Yeah, it is.

It is very clearly a craft, because the techniques and the history and all that stuff are so.

Are so intertwined with the usage of the tools and the techniques, that the craft of it is something that takes time and effort to become competent in rev.

Let alone.

Let alone, you know, an expert in it.

Right.

And then taking all the techniques in the crafts, you know, the craft side of it and bringing that to the artistic presentation.

There's something I wanted to highlight because I looked at a few of the pictures, and obviously, you know, looking at images of it on a computer screen is a poor substitute to seeing it in person.

Everybody should come see it.

So go to the yards at the.

At the public market and go out and see that.

But something that I did notice that was different than things I've seen before was texture.

And it seemed, especially with the skin, that you used texture of that.

And it's not one thing that texture to one, allow for dynamism and allow for darker tones while still getting some of the light and brightness through.

Yeah.

But also that you could feel.

You could feel time, you could feel things from it because they were.

There was texture to the people in a way that I hadn't really seen much before.

Yeah.

One of the challenges I had when I was starting stained glass is I want to put a little boy in, like, low piece, and I have to use, like, completely pitch black glass, or I have to use clear glass.

But, like, I can't put the skin in because I don't own, like, the paint.

And I just.

It's.

The techniques just aren't, like, fleshed out.

You use, like, brown glass, and it's, like, flat, and it's like, my skin doesn't look like that.

Right.

I decided I wanted to figure something out, so I.

So I did.

I.

It's a lot of trial and error trying different things, but I realized at some point what I'm trying to do is techniques that would work on fair skin, but for darker skin, just to get, like, a little conceptual.

And, like, what I actually do is instead of applying the light to dark foreground, background on the skin, the harsh lines and everything with dark, I can do so with the light.

That way I can push the medium around to allow the light to seep through.

I wanted to.

And allow it to be caught where I need it to.

Essentially, the way that my relationship with my skin and how I take pictures, what I think I look good in, I took that and I just applied it to the artistic part of it.

And I think that's where the experimentational part came in.

But I also had to make sure that it fit well within the craft itself.

That's a.

What a beautiful challenge.

Right.

Like, you know what you want.

You know what you want it to feel like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's the.

When you have that shining, you know that, oh, there's a clear goal.

It's like the light of.

At the end of the tunnel.

I can see it clearly.

I just.

Doesn't matter how I get to it.

I just know it's right there.

Yeah.

And you know, you want it to feel.

Yeah.

Like something you have made that is honoring something specific.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's.

It's such a hard thing.

You can't.

It's hard to describe that.

Right.

It's hard to describe that for somebody else because it's without.

I don't know, without being like self aggrandized or whatever.

It's like, you know, there's people who care deeply about things.

And when you have that goal and that feeling you want to evoke.

Yeah.

And everything in this goes into that.

Yeah.

It's both feeling.

It's technique, it's.

And the thing that's hardest to describe is that 5% difference or 10% difference.

That is finesse.

Because finesse takes time and practice and care.

That is hard to define.

It's that little difference of.

Oh, it's.

It's not the absence of light.

This is beautiful.

Highlights.

Yeah.

And it's.

It honors that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I think that I.

A part of it comes from just the sheer frustration.

Yeah.

The fact that you can go into a hundred churches and only two or three would have, like, black figures or maybe one black Jesus.

Yeah.

And if you're lucky.

If you're lucky.

And I'm not even Catholic, so, you know, I can only imagine what it's like for like a black Catholic.

Right.

Instead of getting white hipster Jesus and every single church.

But I also recognize that feeling.

Sometimes I go to my friend's Catholic church for the vibes.

I love the vibes.

It's.

They're great.

The songs are slow, but the vibes are great.

But I go in and they've got the most beautiful stained glass.

And it's like every time I go and I'm like, oh, man, is this the day I become religious?

Because, like, just that energy of the sun passing through the glass on a Sunday, it's like, it makes you feel like you're meant to be there.

There's beautiful expertise in the choices of how that light was going to hit and the choice of how you angle the building.

You don't think about the architects.

You don't think about the artists.

You're just like, God wants me to be here.

And I want people, I want people like me, black people, to go in a church or go into a room and have that feeling, but also feel like they're the ones being venerated.

And that's part, that's.

I think that's my guiding, that's my guiding light.

And to bring it back to religion, I, again, like, I knew, especially since this piece is tied so deeply into IFA religion.

And I wanted to use a medium that people are already associate with religiosity and introduce this topic.

Something familiar.

Yeah, well, and I, I, when I was reading through some of your, you know, some of your writing about this, it was, you know, the two things that grabbed me were, you know, really.

I mean, you're telling stories about the African Diaspora, which as somebody who's a food and drink nerd.

Right.

If you're not thinking about that, you're losing the entire thread of what is food, both in America and the Americas.

And then that, you know, some of the earliest uses of colored glass came from the Tuareg, came from Africa, which again, doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I'm sure artisans were, were, were gently and delightfully brought to Europe to work on those things.

I'm sure if.

I would be shocked if that wasn't the case now, now that you mentioned it, I'm like, oh, of course.

They probably, you know, you know, enslaved people, brought them to Europe to work in these things as experts.

Yeah, of course.

Like the Sahara, Europe's connected to Western Europe is connected to Africa.

We've got the Morocco and Spain, like right there.

Yeah.

And then we've got Egypt.

That connects to the Middle east and then the rest of the Europe.

So that was just perfect highways.

And then the people who actually connected sub Saharan Africa to the rest of Europe, where the Tuareg people, the Amazigh, that were these traders and they had beautiful jewelry, beautiful metal work, and they were also the ones who have the earliest account of having these glass.

Colored glass beads.

Yeah.

That they would also trade as a currency.

That's how it would find its way into the Europes.

And they were like, what's this?

And how can we do this as well?

It's interesting how, like, all the histories just line up.

If you look back far enough.

Yeah, almost always.

I think it's, I think understanding, understanding the complexity of history is wildly valuable to celebrate some of the things we do have now.

I think without the, without that dynamic history with the brutal downs and very, very beautiful high parts.

Yeah, you kind of.

I think you can't understand the high notes nearly as much without understanding the downs.

Yeah.

And that's, that's how I've always thought about the food side too is like so many things that I love and the people celebrate as part of culture and you know, people who are part of that celebrate as part of culture is because of colonization, because of the West African diaspora, because of everything else.

And even like some of the foods that a lot of people enjoy in their culture was also a product of like hard times that just, you know,.

Carried on almost always.

Yeah.

And this, like, that's what we're talking about too is like, hey, this is a craft, this is work.

So, you know, before we move on to, oddly, some current news about stained glass, is there anything else you want to talk about, specifically the show about before we move on?

Yeah, two things.

Two things.

One, this show was made possible by the gbc.

I think that they're great people.

If you're an aspiring artist that wants to do something new interesting, I think you should apply to.

They're grant.

They're great people.

The second thing that I want to say is that the, The art form, stained glass itself is very painstaking and I feel like I, I not to like, like get into the nitty gritty of it, but it's very painstaking.

A lot of people assume that it is something that only special people who've taken lots of classes have done.

I'm self taught, so everything that I've done is completely just off of YouTube or whatever.

This is all to say I would really appreciate if you guys came to the closing show because it's a, it's again, I consider this to be a thesis work.

Everything that I have done up to now leading to this show.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

So definitely swing out.

Like I said, this will be coming out on Thursday the 24th, so make sure you come out.

You said it was Saturday the 26th.

Saturday the 26th, yeah.

Now what time is the show?

The show will be from 11am to 2pm Beautiful.

So definitely go out and do that.

I'm hoping to swing out myself to come see that.

Yeah.

And let's talk about, like I said, oddly, like in this last week I've seen two different articles about stained glass news.

We're like popular now.

Yeah.

Which like what an amazing coincidence that this is when this is happening and when you reached out as well.

So the first was one of the largest producers of stained glass.

For these kind of things.

Kokomo opalescent glass.

Yeah.

Is closing at least a main part of their business coming up very soon.

I'm reading from, you know, the finest source U.S. glass magazine.

Yeah, they are the finest sources.

Yeah.

An Indiana based glass company announced it'll cease manufacturing after 137 years of operation.

That they are stopping manufacturing glass.

This is so sad.

Right?

Okay, so they're the best guys out there.

Can you explain what that like when you've.

Have you used this Kokomo.

Yeah.

Can you explain like what.

How.

How do you define like oh, this is really good.

Or what do you.

How does that.

It's like.

Okay, so this is my personal ranking, right.

Of who's got the worst to best glass.

The worst glass is anything you can get from Hobby Lobby.

I think we can say that in general, but I mean, I will say I will general.

Maybe not the best place to support if you care about diverse communities in our country.

Yeah, yeah.

If you want like the beginner kit.

Sure.

Go to Hobby Lobby, whatever then.

Personally, I like me some Van Gogh glass.

If you come to the show, you'll see it.

It's on one of the pieces, it's got this cool thing where it.

If light's reflected on it, it shimmers.

If light goes through it, it goes gray.

It's really nice.

Then there's Yukogini.

Thank God they're never gonna close because their stuff is so expensive.

But it's so.

It's thick glass and it's got this beautiful like light shining through it and it just looks.

Light shines in one way and it at a certain angle and it just looks different.

There's a depth and there's a depth to it.

Absolutely.

I love that.

I use it so much.

Then Kokomo's like right underneath Yukagini because their stuff is double rolled.

So they roll one sheet of glass, another one on top and it's got that same kind of depth.

Yeah.

Because like, you know, the angles then change the way the light's reflecting.

So you get a different view from a different angle or as the sun's changing angles, you'll get a different perspective, I'm sure.

Also, I don't know if it's them or Whismak that does the dichroic stuff.

Might be both.

But Wismak is cool too.

Yeah.

I can be a nerd without glass for as long as I can.

Well, I love that too.

Right.

Like anything you're.

Anything you're passionate about, you should Care about?

Yeah.

The means.

You know, both the means of production, you know, you as making it, but also, like, hey, where does.

Where your materials come from?

Like, hey, we're.

We're sitting in a studio talking in the microphones.

If I didn't care about the microphones I was using, I wouldn't.

Yeah.

I wouldn't be doing the job I need to do.

So I'll tell you something.

There's used to be one guy that supplied New York with upstate New York with glass as my glass guy before, when I moved here.

And I don't know, he's ghosted me, whatever.

But then he gets his stuff from Maryland, where I used to get it, and they're the only guys that supply the entire East Coast.

Wow.

Yeah.

Anything.

Stained glass, they're in Maryland, and they're like.

They've got this.

It's not even like a.

It's a big warehouse.

And I remember when I first went there, and I was like, whoa.

First of all, there's an entire community of people there who are, like, just doing stained glasses.

And then you also get to just look, because it.

I love when I get into a new hobby, business, whatever it is, and I just have my eyes open to, like, the entire, like, depth of, like, everything that's possible.

Yeah.

My wife calls those jobies, which is kind of where I take so many of my things.

I take things a little further than I probably should, but, you know, I think it's, you know, caring too hard about something is never something I have to worry about.

Yeah.

So I think the other thing that came up during my reading, I mean, again, oddly came up at the same time was the UK is putting health regulations on working with stained glass.

Because, you know, for a lot of it, you know, it's essentially.

I mean, for lack of a better word, like, it's leaded glass.

It's.

It's both.

The glass might be, and then the.

You know, the method of connecting them is lead, or it's almost like solder.

Right.

So it's all that has lead in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's a cane.

Yeah.

So that's like, something that came up as well.

When you're thinking about this as a passion.

Yeah.

Knowing that it does have hazardous chemicals in.

And this is not something new to creating art.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, for how long did paint have cadmium and other things in it that were deleterious to the people creating amazing works?

Dyes and everything?

Yeah.

So how does that.

How does that, like, tie to this beautiful craft and art form.

Yeah.

And somebody who is practicing it.

If there are any stained glass makers listening, then you would be familiar with your fingertips just being completely cut up.

Yeah.

Just like they say, wear gloves, but like you, you know, sometimes you got to touch the glass.

There's periods of times when I'm making whatever work I'm making, especially for this show.

Those two big pieces I started since January.

I didn't stop cutting glass until probably toward the end because there was always something that needed to happen.

How big are those pieces, by the way?

I saw the images, but it was hard to tell how big they were.

I'm gonna say close to six feet tall and three feet across.

Oh, wow.

And there's two of them.

Yeah, I thought they were big, but wow, that's a lot.

It's like when you see it in person, it's really a look up moment.

That's awesome.

But just the sheer amount of time working on that.

There's periods of times when I can't like log into my computer with the finger thing.

Cause my fingers are cut up.

There was this one time I needed to get my biometrics done and the person was looking at me like, do you work for the mafia?

Like, what's going on?

And it's like, no, sir, stained glass.

I'm just like this.

And that's just on the glass part, there's like scars that I have.

Like this guy that's just.

You know, at some point you realize that this piece of glass can cut through you like butter.

Yeah, but.

And then we get into the lead stuff.

And I always try to be safe, but it's hard to completely be safe knowing that you're working in a very dangerous medium.

That being said, I enjoy things that you are investing yourself into to a point of madness.

Bad.

That makes sense.

What, what about.

What about that?

What about that dedication kind of grabs you.

I think that when you see something.

When you see it.

When I see a piece of art that is, you know, somebody strung together of 50 billion bobby pins to make this portrait of their grandmother.

And like.

50 Billion bobby pins.

You must be an insane person.

That level of dedication to me, to go beyond what people would consider normal or humanly feasible without wanting to give up.

I respect it.

I respect it.

And just to think about all the stained glass artists, restorers, even people who are more artists and craftsmen and vice versa, just putting their lives on the line to preserve and to further this endangered craft.

And I'm doing that too.

It's like, oh, I have to not put my life on the line, but I have to do work that is worthy of putting my life on the line, if that makes sense.

1.

I think you're also.

I mean, not to put, you know, words in your mouth, but you're also honoring people who have sacrificed so much for you to be here.

Yeah.

For you to be here now.

And whether they chose to sacrifice or not, that sacrifice is why you're able to create some of these things today.

Yeah.

I need to make as much noise to honor them, and this is the way that I'm choosing to do it.

And I like that it's a bit dangerous like that.

It's a bit dangerous, I think.

I don't know.

Maybe that's just like the adventure junkie.

I also go boxing, and I'm not good at it at all.

But I also like that it's a bit.

I don't.

I don't even watch boxing.

Yeah.

But, like, I will go over there and get punched in the head.

I'm like, ah, this is great.

I like things that are hard, but at the end of it, you come out, like, extremely skillful.

I'm doing a PhD now in neuroscience, and that's sort of in the same bucket of this is ridiculously hard.

By the end of this, I'm gonna come out, like, very specifically an expert in one specific thing.

And that sort of, like, excites me as well.

Well, I mean, I think everybody should be excited to go see.

To go see the festival over at.

Over at the Yards, over at the public market closing, closing event from 11am to 2pm on Saturday, the 26th today, or when you're listening to this either 24th or 25th, swing out and check that out.

This is something you definitely need to see in person.

And tiwa, where can people follow you otherwise?

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram.

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram.

Probably be linked to this podcast.

Yep.

At aweet glass await.

Aw.

I t. That's just tiwa backwards dot glass.

You know how to spell glass.

And on that, you can see my portfolio.

You can see the other stuff that I've done, other things that I will be doing.

Trying to, like, talk more there.

So.

Yeah, sounds good.

Hey, thank you so much for coming over to the studio.

If people want to check out other shows on the lunch at our podcast network, go to lunchadore.org and we'll see you next time around.

Rochester.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.

Tiwa is the danger.