Jennifer MacTavish's career path in agriculture demonstrates the power of curiosity and saying 'yes' to opportunities. Starting with an international development degree and transitioning through animal science, she discovered her passion for the agricultural sector by embracing diverse experiences and learning from her mistakes. Her journey highlights the importance of supportive environments that allow young professionals to develop leadership skills without fear of failure.

Currently serving as the interim executive director of the Agricultural Adaptation Council, MacTavish is deeply committed to addressing generational challenges in the agricultural workforce. She emphasizes the need for mentorship, flexible work arrangements, and creating career pathways that retain talented individuals within the broader agricultural ecosystem. Her approach focuses on valuing employees beyond financial compensation and recognizing the unique skills developed in agricultural work.

MacTavish's leadership philosophy centers on adaptation, resilience, and curiosity. She sees organizational transitions not as obstacles but as exciting opportunities for innovation. By maintaining enthusiasm during periods of change and keeping a forward-looking perspective, she believes agricultural organizations can attract and nurture the next generation of leaders who are passionate about the sector's future.

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.

Welcome to The Future Herd.

I've always been fascinated by how people find their way into

leadership, not through a straight line, but through curiosity and saying

yes to unexpected opportunities.

Jen McTavish embodies that perfectly.

She started with a dream of law school, stumbled into animal science through

a university course catalogue, and has since travelled the world working

with agricultural organisations.

And now she's leading the Agricultural Adaptation Council through a critical

transition, bringing her unique blend of hands-on experience, humility, and

an infectious enthusiasm for learning.

Of course, the A A C is our partner organisation, and Jen is

a member of our production team.

And that's part of the reason why for episode 20, we're bringing Jen on to

add a little more transparency to how we put things together, but also to take a

moment of introspection, of reflection, of thinking about what we've accomplished

so far and what we plan to do next.

So in this episode, we'll talk about what does adaptation really mean?

How do we create leadership cultures that nurture talent instead of burning it out?

And what can we do to make the future heard so that the whole is

greater than the sum of the parts.

Alright, let's tune in.

Welcome to the Future Herd.

Thank you, Jesse.

Good to see you.

actually listened to a few of our episodes.

I can roll right into our first question.

What is, what does the future mean to

Why did I, uh, I am not prepared to answer that question despite having

listened to all of the podcast episodes.

yeah.

I don't know what it means to me, but I think when I think about the future, the

feelings I get are, you know, curiosity, excitement, um, kind of like a brave new

world are the words that are coming to me.

I think the world's going in a in a direction you've never seen before.

And um, yeah, I'm kind of curious to see how it ends.

make it there.

Now, one of the advantages I have

episode is this is not our first conversation, and so I will indulge

in referencing conversations we've had that our podcast audience do

not necessarily have access to.

I was thinking that the one thing, I don't know, in spite of us having a, a.

Quite a number of really interesting chats is how you got into agriculture.

I, I don't think I really know your origin story from a sectoral perspective,

It's a bit of a long story.

Um, I grew up in Brampton, which is not really known for

its agriculture much anymore,

at all.

And I went to university, um, Destin for law school or so I thought, but

found out when you go to Guelph, you could take a whole course on

horses and a whole course on pigs.

And I was in international development and most development

work is agriculture based.

And so I just followed the trail.

I just, I got a BA in international development.

I went back, got A BSC in animal science.

Thankfully they had production courses at the time at the university and

then had a prophet at the University of Guelph who got me hooked on

nutrition and ended up getting a master's in ruminant nutrition and.

Felt literally fell into agriculture through just saying

yes to all the things in front of me that interested me the most.

think there's a thread worth pulling there in terms of, you know,

the way in which leadership is a kind of a force of gravity that as long as you

don't resist it, it kind of draws you

That's interesting.

But a

a with your

early international development stuff, did that, uh, either enable

or encourage you to do any travel?

And, and if so, I'm curious where you went and what your experiences were like.

So I did not travel much in the ID degree.

We had plans for travel that got cancelled and, and things kind of,

um, you know, I travelled mostly through my work in agriculture

and it's sort of weird how things.

Sort of come full circle.

I wanted to do like trade law and a lot of agriculturalist trade.

So things find there, you, you end up exactly where you're meant to be.

Um, but through work I was really super fortunate to be able to go

to some pretty awesome places.

Um,

Do you want me to list them all?

Just,

Well, that as, as an excuse to

Yeah.

into them, because a lot of the

talk to on the podcast, know, their leadership path, I, I

don't wanna say is narrow, but it's kind of focused versus you

have.

A, a diversity, for lack of a better word, like you, I, one

mm.

I keep coming back to on the podcast is

I'm curious about the perspectives that leaders get.

Yours is diverse.

You've had a lot of interesting perspectives.

So why don't we use that as a way to describe the, the different opportunities

that have kind of, uh, you've stumbled into from your own description.

Yeah, like

like

I think, you know, in addition to saying yes to the things that interest

me, which I encourage everybody to do,

um, is,

is,

You know, I, I ended up in a, in an industry where I was allowed

to take on positions for better or for worse, that were kind of

punching above my weight and that, oh.

So I worked in the sheep industry for a lot of years and, um, through

working in the sheep industry, I got, I got to go and do, um, travel in

New Zealand and Australia and Europe.

And talk about things like animal health and sit around the table with

people who had so many more years of experience than I did and had such a

rich diversity and history of experience.

Um, I don't, I don't take for granted how lucky I was to have that at, at

my age that I was when I was doing it.

Um.

Then was, you know, because I

uh,

I I, would, I learned a lot.

I, I would just say I learned so much through that experience.

And of course, you know, I was chatting with somebody the other day

and we were talking about a situation they were in, and I said, you know,

I'm, I'm just giving you this advice because I've made that mistake, right?

Like, I made so many mistakes.

And I think that's where.

The real kind of diversity of my leadership that you speak of really

comes from is where I fumbled.

that's why we should be allowing young people to get

into positions of leadership

Yes.

they have the runway to fuck

Yeah.

from those mistakes in, in a healthy way.

But there's something I want to tease out that I, I kind of

inferred in your description, which is a joy of learning because that

Yeah.

side to making mistakes.

'cause if you

you, you, you are just gonna keep repeating those mistakes.

And, and it sounds like part of your North Star, if I want to use that

cliche, is you kind of enjoyed those challenges and enjoyed those opportunities

because they were hands-on learning.

Am I right in thinking that?

In hindsight, a hundred percent in the moment, it is tough to enjoy

it, um, especially when you are.

You have the capacity and are afforded that capacity

to say, yeah, that was wrong.

Um, or that was a really bad decision.

Uh, and you were lucky enough to have people around you who were gracious

and said, yeah, it's no problem.

Here we go.

This is how we fix it.

So I think not only was I learning by doing, I was learning by doing

in an environment where people.

I had my back and where people were super gracious when I came

back to 'em with an apology and they were like, yeah, no problem.

Here we go.

Let's fix it.

Right?

And I think that's, that's where we really fail sometimes, is when we

don't, when we aren't gracious with people enough to say, you know what?

You made a mistake and it's not life limiting and this

is how we're gonna fix it.

And you have their back.

I think that's, I've seen a lot of.

I've had a lot of conversations with people who haven't had that

level of support around them.

what I get to do as a host of this podcast is flatter my guess.

Uh, and, and in your case,

You don't have to do that.

in your case, you're right?

And the way in which wisdom is both a byproduct of failure, a, a byproduct

of support, and, and the, the, the kind of encouragement that follows failure.

But also, you know, a consequence of the path we take and, and what

you're describing is not so much a path of intention, but more a path

of curiosity and a path of openness.

You know, now that I'm for

it, what role do you think wisdom plays in, in the way in which a

leader matures over time to ideally grow into more powerful positions?

I think what I'm also hearing is.

Develop a healthy sense of humility that allows that leadership

to be even more effective.

like I think so there's just something, I'm gonna pick on a word

there, like powerful, like I think leadership happens regardless of

what position you're in or where you sit in an organisation or if you're

even in an organisation, but, and.

I think humility is really the point.

I think if we can, if we can create environments and, um,

workspaces where, where people are encouraged to make mistakes.

You know, I had a, a board chair Wednesday.

It's okay if you're making a mistake, it means you're doing something.

So if we encourage that in people and we have guardrails around them.

As the people who've been through it in the past, right?

To sort of be able to show them the exit or you know, the

bend, the curve in the road.

Um, that's our best way to help build resilience within that person

who we see as somebody who has great potential in the industry.

Um, and also to keep some in the industry, right?

retention piece is, is easy to gloss over in no small part because

the people who leave be forgotten, right?

They, they're not always there to be counted.

And when we first met you, you kind of gave me this image of generational change.

Which really resonated with me.

And in fact, I've

Yeah.

in talking to other people, those of us of a certain age, and I,

I would qualify it as either Gen X or kind of, you know, older millennial.

We've seen our leaders take a lot of crap and, and we've seen

Yeah.

elevated into

who took a lot of crap.

Many of us are just like,

yeah,

thanks.

I don't know

to subject myself to that kind.

Uh, uh, scrutiny and harassment.

The most obvious example of this, of course, is elected office that we

used to, in theory, get the best and brightest running for elected office.

Now, the best and brightest are like, no,

Sure.

I, I, I don't want to go there.

I, I'm rambling, but I would love to hear you kind of share your

thoughts on this, not just in terms of assessing kind of what's happening.

To your last answer,

how we can address it, how we can reverse it and incentivize people

who should be, uh, uh, taking these opportunities, leaning in, uh,

to the kind of responsibility and opportunities that are in the sector,

but kind of don't wanna take the crap that they've seen other people take.

Yeah, that's a super good question.

And you know, I've had this conversation with a lot of people, some of whom

are like staring down retirement, and they're like, where is my succession?

And.

So there's that part of the conversation is how do we prepare our leaders?

So we're gonna use leaders here in the terms of like our general

managers or our senior leaders with job title, um, job titles.

How do we prepare them and get their minds wrapped around the fact that

the best legacy they have is a good succession plan and, you know, train.

Mentor, they're, they're their replacements.

If you, will's a bad word, but replacement.

But you are right, like I know a couple of really bright, um, you know,

enthusiastic people who I would love to just keep in the industry, right?

And they don't have to be in this industry.

They are choosing to work here.

I.

am trying my best to be like, how do we keep you here?

How do I introduce you to people who I think could be good mentors?

How do I find, help you find jobs that align with your

skillset or your interests?

And I think that's part of what we have to sort of engage in as well.

Like we could have really good people working for us and we

want them in the industry.

But do they have to be in our organisation or can we mentor them into a role where

they're just in our other department?

Like our industry is so small, we don't lose them.

When they go to another org, they just move to our other department, if you will.

Um, and so there's two, there's two kind of paths here, right?

Well, and I think what you're describing is a different culture, right?

On the one hand, it's kind of a network

Mm.

where you're sort of accepting that

a larger ecosystem and that we don't need to be hoarding talent.

We don't need to be hoarding resources.

There's, you know, a, a natural

work together.

there, there's something else you said that kind of.

Gave me this, this insight, which is really a unique

sector when it comes to talent.

on the one hand, from my perspective, and this is certainly

what I'm learning and doing, the

herd agriculture produces incredible talent like.

Absolutely

Yeah.

talent.

The, the ingredients in place, especially for people who grow up in

the sector, creates a, a, a talent, uh, talented, diverse and resilient

people, but they're not really valued they can go to almost any take those

skills and apply those skills outside of the sector and probably make more

money and get more respect and get more

And probably make more money.

Yeah.

to me is

Yeah.

that, that we,

to address, not just 'cause we want to attract external talent, but because

I think we need to do a better job of retaining and valuing existing talent.

I, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Like, um,

the, the skillset that people get when they work in agriculture and

agricultural commodity groups.

'cause we tend to be kind of small.

So we're sort of like the jack of all trades is easily

transferable into industries where.

Society holds more value.

So you'll get paid more to do that.

Um, and I tell this crazy story about, I, I had an employee stay with me

probably 18 months longer than they should have for their skillset because

I let them bring their dog to work.

Right?

Like if you, if you can figure out how to like, it's not, when we work

in agriculture, we tend to work in agriculture 'cause we're passionate.

We love the industry.

It is a great industry and you do get to learn so much.

Like it has, it has been probably one of the best choices of my

life to stay in this industry.

Um, but it is not as well paid and the rewards aren't always there.

And it does feel like the slogs sometimes, and it can be incredibly disheartening.

And so how do we set up.

Ways to show value without it being a financial value

to keep you in the industry.

So, um, and we've had, I've had conversations with people

about this as well, right?

Like, uh, for those of us who work in commodities, we work for farmers, we

understand it's a 24 7 job and sometimes we've gotta work weekends and evenings

and we have to be super flexible.

That also could mean we get to work from home.

It also could mean that like there's other ways that we can

show value to our employees without it being a financial transaction.

I'm not sure I answered your question.

I went on my own tangent there, so feel free to poke me on that, but,

and it, it kind of sets up a, a transitional question

because, you know, on the one

hmm.

think of the solution, I think we

We need diverse leaders, we need leaders that kind of address and

articulate what you're addressing.

at the same time, it is kind of.

Cultural that we're, we're trying to kind of adjust the culture.

I think partly to go back to a conversation had in a few episodes

previously to return to the community centric culture that agriculture had in

terms of a healthy rural communities.

this allows me to kind of look at the agricultural adaptation council.

'cause I think part of what we're describing.

Is adaptation.

So to try to enable that transition, you know, we've been kind of

journey, both literally and conceptually, but h how did you

get connected with the A, a C?

Right.

Let, let's kind of, you know, make that link so we

sure.

to kind of talking

that lie therein.

Yeah, I,

Yes.

So, because

because I worked in Ontario agriculture at a commodity organisation,

we all know the A, a C, right?

Because they did pro programme delivery for the provincial government.

So I'd known of it and had been on the periphery for a number of years.

Um, about three years ago now, I started working for myself, and through that.

Began doing some projects with Mel Dotto and Can Lead.

And Can lead was Mel Dotto at the time was the executive director of the

Agricultural Adaptation Council and Can Lead was the sister organisation

that the A a C had created and she, Mel came to me and said that she was

gonna be stepping down to go to Canali full-time and they needed an interim

executive director to help a a c through this period of transition their, their.

Reevaluating how they can better serve Ontario agriculture and would I be

willing to step in as the interim ed.

And so I went through that application process.

I believe there was a couple of us who, who applied for that position.

And um, thankfully I did get it.

And so I've been there since January in the interim ed position,

um, and helping them through this process of their strategic review.

let me ask you a very Jesse question.

What does adaptation mean to

Here we go.

Yeah.

I think it means resilience.

I think it means the ability to

be

and change how you, um.

Respond to what's going on around you.

I, I think it means foresight.

Like how do, what do you see coming so that you can be nimble and you

can set yourself up for success?

Um, and it, and maybe nice full circle question, Jesse.

Um, it's that curiosity.

Let's be curious.

Let's look at what's happening.

What did we just talk about at the beginning of this podcast?

Yeah.

All that.

Maybe I'm the best fit for the transition after all.

you know, correct me if I'm wrong, part of the

nicely done.

is

uh, uh, uh, hopes are high, authority is not necessarily there.

Right?

And.

further, I always understood, correct me if I'm wrong, that

a a C is kind of a meta organisation because your members are

organisations who have members.

Yep.

it, it makes not only

delicate.

at the same time, it is a unique opportunity where a lot of the

groups who are normally doing their all thing kind of come together

and focus on the big picture.

So I'm, I'm curious how, how you, where you find opportunity in that

or, or where you find passion in that.

Because at the one hand, it, it, it can be overwhelming.

But on the other hand, to go back to my, you know, uh, prioritising

perspective, you can start seeing things that no one else in the sector can see.

sure.

And.

I think.

Where I, where I get really excited in doing this work with the

Adaptation Council is precisely because there is no lack of opportunity when

you start talking to our members.

'cause the members are really diverse.

So we have commodity, primary commodity organisations.

We have further processors.

We, you know, we cover a wide swath of the Agri AgriFood industry, so the

opportunities there are almost endless.

The challenge is as we review kind of where we wanna go

in that strategic direction,

how do we maintain, not authority, but that sense of enthusiasm and

walk people through this period of transition, because that.

Periods of transition are not comfortable for people.

They make people feel a bit shaky sometimes.

They don't wanna be part of it, so they're gonna, they're gonna

sort of exit along the sides.

But how do we maintain that core and keep us focused and

enthusiastic about the unknown?

We are heading, we are charter, chartering a new path here.

We don't know where we're gonna land.

But isn't this kind of the fun part of it?

Like, let's figure it out.

And that really.

I get excited,

and what,

what

what is

is

making me really love this job at the moment.

I were, you know, my job is to flatter, I think what

you did really quite effectively there is evoke model of leadership.

And, and I think you're evoking this new model of leadership of spontaneously

based on your own experience, based on your own perspective.

But I'll, I'll frame it and, and then I'll, I'll throw it to you as a question.

think, for example, there's a paradox to change in the agricultural.

Because on the one hand, when I look at the agricultural sector,

I see change like all the time.

Like lots of innovation, lots of new practises, lots

of, of constantly improving, improving yields, right?

Improving capacity, That change is only acceptable to people in the

sector if they feel that they are the one deciding it because, oh boy, do

they hate change when they feel that it's not them, the ones deciding it.

it creates a paradox for the leader because on the one hand, the leader

can't say, Hey everybody, let's do this.

Unless everybody wants to actually do that.

do you balance the need to embrace that change with the need to have

everyone feeling that that change is what they want in the sense of, uh, uh,

Hmm.

and engagement?

A difficult

you know, that's how we roll here at the future

Yeah, so my first response is nobody likes change.

This isn't just an agricultural issue, right?

Nobody likes change that's imposed on 'em, and we have a lot of experience with

that in the last six-ish years, right when the whole world started changing.

So many of us like it.

It creates instability, it creates a sense of insecurity.

Nobody loves change.

So we have to recognise that on the flip side, we are where we are and we

know that the course, like the previous way of existing, the previous way of

doing business might not be sustainable.

It might not be best serving the industry.

It might not be in our best interest.

And so while we may want to stay there.

Even if we don't do anything, we might not be able to stay there.

So instead of letting the future happen to us, why don't we create it

would be my response to that question.

A the, uh, question difficulty as high as possible.

'cause we don't want to be perceived as giving you any special

treatment here on the podcast.

What are the obstacles to that?

Because on the one

you describe it, it, it seems self-evident.

It seems quite reasonable, obviously it isn't.

Obviously this is a

it's not, though.

Challenge Yeah.

The challenge here is whether the challenge here is that human

emotion comes into play, so what I just described as a quite pragmatic

way of attack, attacking something,

not very often are we good at making pragmatic decisions.

Right.

Emotion comes into play all the time.

And so really what we have to balance is, you know, giving people the space.

This is language I use, this is not language that people around me

would use, but giving people the space to have that emotional moment.

Giving people the space, I call it, kick your feet outta your pyjamas.

Giving them the time to kick their feet outta their pyjamas.

And I don't mean that derogatory, like in an awful way.

It's just sometimes we gotta have that big cry.

And then we can, you know, look at things a little bit more objectively.

Um, and also like we have to hold space for one another.

Part of this is like, you know, we can't just do it and come across

as being like top down changing.

We have to go out and start talking about it.

We have to go out and start telling people, okay, these are the of

changes that we need to make.

If we can get people to provide input and ideas, if we can get people to start

talking about it really early on in the process, the more likelihood that the

change is gonna be sustainable, the more likelihood that it's gonna be implemented.

Coming in kind of with this top down approach, I've never

seen that actually quite work.

why, again, I I, I wanna keep repeating both for our

benefit, but for the listener's benefit that we are describing.

A, a model of leadership.

A vision of leadership, which is.

Innovative, which does incorporate elements that are not already in place.

So I, I, I, a question I probably should have asked earlier in the episode,

and it is something that I think about often when, when you and I chat, what

role has, has conflict resolution and conflict mitigation, both as a

skill, but also as a concept because.

I, I, it's clearly part of the way in which you approach these situations.

You may take it for granted, but I see it, I see it in

oh.

curiosity and your confidence.

So you to tease it out.

So I, I'll say that if you had met me like 15 years ago, it would be

a completely different person and we would not be having this conversation.

Um, but I had a job that was, that had a lot of conflict and

there was a woman at the time, I wish I could remember her name.

She was not in agriculture, and she's like, you know, they take, they

teach a whole course on understanding conflict and I'm like, sign me up.

Um, I subsequently got addicted and I do now have, I do now do,

uh, volunteer mediation and, um, it literally changed how I approach people.

It literally, it changed how I approach my work.

It, I don't wanna sound overly dramatic, but it definitely changed.

It, it changed how I manage, right?

It made me much more externally focused.

It made me much more process focused than outcome focused.

Um, one of the things that we get taught when we do I, um, transformative mediation

classes in particular, is that the people who are engaged in the process are the

ones who are responsible for the outcome.

You just have to make sure they stick to the process,

and that is now how I.

how

I try and sometimes fail at managing people, managing

staff, managing issues, working.

Um, yeah, so it is, it is all about bringing people along in

the journey and getting curious.

The minute you start to feel like you're getting defensive or you think

the person across the table from you is a complete moron, ask a question.

Ask, like just, yeah, dig in.

I went on a huge tangent there.

Sorry.

You.

you, you hit that right outta the park because I, I think unequivocally

any aspiring leader today would.

dramatically increase their capacity, their empathy, and their

resilience by having the kind of skills that you just described.

Because we live in a world with a lot of conflict, and I think that conflict is

Yeah.

So, to your

uh, within the manager's toolkit, the ability to deescalate, the

ability to resolve, the ability to make people feel like their

grievance has been addressed, ah.

I think that's indispensable and, and, uh, without, know, transitioning off the

subject, which one we do have to, 'cause we have other things to talk about.

Yeah.

would you advise people to,

you know, short of going to take similar courses to kind of

operationalize that or integrate that into their practise of leadership?

Wow.

That's a big question.

Like there's, so there's a few tricks I have.

One is lean in, lean into the questions, right?

Like just start asking questions because oftentimes I say this a lot like.

The TSM turning point for me was in the very first class when they're like,

you judge others on their behaviour, you judge yourself on your intent.

And so find out their intention because sometimes their

behaviour isn't their intention.

'cause we don't know how to translate ourselves properly.

Sometimes the words come out wrong, we say the wrong thing.

We're all a little bit awkward.

Um, so try to find intent.

What is their intention?

And try to find that common ground.

Because if, if our goal is to do X right, but we're both behaving

like idiots, you know, if we could focus on that goal or that intention

instead of our behaviour, we can, you know, we can find a path forward.

And I might, I'm gonna say something that's a little bit maybe.

I don't know.

I don't know how people will receive it.

So my intent is that it's helpful is that we have to remove our ego from this.

This isn't about being right, this isn't about having the answers.

This isn't about being viewed as the best boss ever.

Um, it goes back to doing what's best for the, for the organisations we work

in, for the industry that we work in.

And that has the, one of the biggest lessons I learned is that.

It is not about you.

At the end of the day, all we're doing is racing each other to retirement, right?

So, you know, it's not about us or our ego, it really isn't.

It's just about doing what's best for the space in which

we are working and operating.

the best leaders that I've encountered in a lifetime of studying

leadership either, uh, have the ability to separate themselves from their ego

and put their ego aside, or conversely, are so confident and secure in their ego.

That they're not threatened and, and they're able to, uh, effectively put

it aside even if they don't know how.

And recently I actually heard a, a technically inaccurate but interesting

analogy that, neurodiverse people hear their ego versus neurotypical people

are their ego, which I, I, I thought was

Geez, that's too deep for me.

Yeah.

And, and, people and neurotypical people kind of push back and say,

it's not that clear cut, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

Now I

Yeah, like I just, I just wanna, can I just say something because you

know, you said like, you know, you're either really confident or whatever.

It's just, I don't know what I am, I'm just okay with being wrong and

I'm okay with people thinking I'm a little bit odd and I'm okay with

the fact like I'm just a goofy girl.

Like at the end of the day, I'm just kind of goofy and quirky and I'm totally

cool if that's what people think of me.

So I don't know what that, I don't know that I'm super confident and I think

people just have to be cool with, people are gonna see you as they see you, and

you're still gonna go home to the people that love you, and you're still gonna get

to, you know, do the things that you love regardless of what people think of you.

So just, yeah, I don't know.

that, you know,

I don't know if that's helpful.

of attention of easy distraction, it's

easy to forget what matters.

And, and that's

Mm-hmm.

true when it comes to work, but it's

true when it comes to our sense of ourself.

Um, and, and that's.

of to transition, uh, part of why I kind of enjoy doing this podcast, right in

that I can sort of transparently be both excited about learning, excited about

talking to the guests we have on the show.

also inserting myself into the conversations as imperfect and flawed as

that is, and being totally comfortable being the crazy, uh, weirdo that I am.

I use that as a setup because you are ostensibly the first guest,

and this is our 20th episode, so it's kind of a milestone.

Yeah.

you are the first guest

uh, to at least some of the episodes.

Most of the guests we've had on haven't listened to.

of the episodes, which, which is fair, I don't expect them to, now I get to

actually have a conversation of, so Jen, of the episodes you've listened over the

last 20 odd, that instantly come to mind.

And as you know, the game we play here on the Future Herd is.

Gut instinct, so it's whatever comes to mind first.

is there any guess that you were particularly excited about listening

to or a particular subject that you were like, yeah, right on.

Yeah, there's a few, right?

Like Tyler McCann I listened to and I, I love listening.

I, I worked with him a long, long time ago, or adjacent to

him a long, long time ago, and.

So it's kind of like, oh, I know this guy, you know, it's just

nice to hear what he has to say.

And I watch what happens with Cap.

Um, Lori Nichol, she, that was my first time hearing her.

I've heard her name.

I've, I've worked with people who work with her, and so her,

her podcast was everything.

I thought it would be everything I hoped it would be.

It was kind of like.

You know, hearing someone who you thought would be really cool

and then they were, and you're like, oh my God, that was awesome.

Um, and there was a young lady you interviewed and unfortunately her

name is escaping me at the moment, but I believe she was with like,

Jordan

was her name, maybe Jordan.

Yeah.

Oh God, she is.

We gotta hang on to her.

She's a girl.

We've gotta like, keep in the industry.

Absolutely.

For sure.

And um.

Oh yeah.

There's been so many, like all of them have been really interesting.

Those are the three that kind of pop to mind like right away,

but for different reasons.

you know, part uh, of the cliche of agricultural

leaders is they wear many hats.

And

Yeah.

is true of people in the policy world

that you know, the nature of Canada being the.

Kind of relatively small country we are is that you do get people who show up in

different circles with different roles.

You, you're doing that today in the episode, and that on the one hand, you're

a leader in the agricultural sector.

On the other hand, you're a leader within the Agricultural Adaptation Council,

which is a partner for the podcast.

But on the other

part of the production team of the podcast, so you're.

It's true.

at this, the way I'm coming personality disorder.

Yeah.

so I'm curious,

those three different angles, what have been some of the themes

or what are some of the topics?

What are some of the subjects that have come up that have circulated

in your head beyond just the

Yeah.

So for me, the, the downside is that I'm gravitating to the stuff that

naturally perks my curiosity, which is like the younger people coming up

that I wanna identify and be like, I wanna know that I know them, or I wanna

know how to be able to connect them.

So when someone tells me they need someone, I can be like, I got you right.

I'm gonna hook you up.

Um, but through the other lens, like, and again, full circle coming back

to like my food in, um, international development stuff around food

security and food distribution.

And so when we talk about our food systems, I mean, you've in, you've

interviewed some pretty interesting people at a BC that want I wish I was better at.

Names Jesse.

This is a horrible.

The

podcast.

Thank you, Jessica.

you.

and, you know, coupling her interview with Lori Nichol is a really

interest, like one after the other.

That's a pretty cool way to spend two hours of your day if you're

wanna geek out on food security and how, and, and where that plays into.

And then when we look at it through the lens of where we're headed, um, and

what's going on in the world today, and.

You know, how we are going to, from my perspective, get really, um,

uh, creative around how we solve some of the big problems that are facing us.

You know, guys like Camden Lawrence and bringing in some more of that

indigenous knowledge and how we support local food production.

Um, that's a really cool podcast too.

So.

I really, you know, I am biassed.

You, you've declared our bias already.

I think we've had a, I think we've been pretty good at curating a very interesting

set of podcasts for people to listen to.

Um, that I hope get people really thinking outside the box, right?

know, to do our, our, uh, what's the industry flag

I'm looking for to do our promo?

Uh, part of what we're trying to do with the

is take the kind of one-on-one to.

To the collaborative level, to the synthesis level, to

Yeah.

think of as

Yeah.

a whole bunch of

of jamming together.

So I tell, tell listeners about the panel, uh, that we're organising and

kind of what you want to get out of it.

Sure.

So we are organising a panel with Lori and Tyler and Camden, and

what I really wanna dig into is,

you know, we're, we're talking about a national food security

strategy, food sovereignty work.

Um, and I really wanna dig into what that means.

Like, what does it mean for them to have a resilient food system in Canada?

What does it look like?

Because I know we talk about stuff a lot.

We're super good at talking about stuff, but if we're gonna high five

ourselves in two years, because we, we hit the ball outta the ballpark,

what does it actually look like?

What did we accomplish and what do they wish people knew?

Like what's about some of the speed bumps that are in their way to

getting us to where we need to be, to be food sovereign or food secure,

you know?

Yeah, that's what I really wanna dig into.

me away in both the, the conversation with Lori and,

and the one with Neil from the Toronto Daily Bread food Bank they

take their perspective for granted.

Like they see the problem.

In a way, I think

Yeah,

don't.

But they

sure.

in a way a lot of

So I think that's the power in, in

Yeah.

folks together and kind of

I, I'm, you know, let, let's give the listeners a kind of a glimpse

behind the scenes or a procedural side and, and here, you know, this

is more a speculative than realistic 'cause we're talking about the future.

But how, how will you advocate, or how will you argue that the broader

agricul, the broader a, uh, adaptation council should make use of the knowledge

and material that we're generating?

Right.

Because on the one hand, we're bringing these people together, we're

creating all these conversations.

that's, you know, there's only so much that you and I can do on another level.

It's for the members and for the

Sure.

to kind of take further.

So how you'd frame it.

I.

don't know if I'm gonna, you know, directly answer your question, but I'm

gonna tell you kind of my wishlist, right?

I hope that what we're doing through this podcast is introducing listeners to people

in agriculture that they should talk to.

So when they're having, when they're having questions or when

they wanna do consultations or when they wanna get information.

As much as agriculture's kind of small and people know each other, I

would love to give them a way into a conversation so that they could,

you know, call up, uh, Steph Towers.

We did an interview with her, a podcast with her, I believe, right?

And say, Hey, I heard you on this podcast talking about x. I

wanna talk some more about that.

I really hope that people are able to, um.

Use some of what they're hearing and get curious about it, and maybe sit on

it for a bit and help it maybe reframe how they're thinking about what's going

on in the world or how they should be engaging with their politicians or their

commodity organisations or whatever.

Right?

So I hope it expand.

I hope our podcasts are both making introductions.

Actually making introductions both to people and to new ways of thinking

or new ideas or new perspectives.

That's what I hope.

would sort of, uh, uh, tag onto that.

Um, and, and this is more, uh, the blue sky part of every episode, uh, that

I'd like to have in the future herd.

What do you think?

What, what, where, where are the gaps?

What do you think is missing?

And, and I'm asking this on an organisational level because the

last question really was kind of the a, a c question, right?

Like, what can the A a C do and what is, you know, within your role

in the A, a C. But let's take a

Mm-hmm.

bigger, right?

What is the sector missing?

Either organizationally, intellectually, or even individually?

'cause I kind of like the vision you're describing that the Future herd

is kind of a talent scouting process where we're trying to get people on

a stage so that other people can see them on the stage and go, yeah, I

like that story, or I like that play.

But we can't do that alone.

What, what, what other pieces in the sector could, could you imagine to

really leadership that we've been articulating and evoking today?

Um,

God, that's a good question.

and you may balling this, but it's kind

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, I think what, what I keep coming back to, um.

What does it look like?

So we talk about the need for more collaboration.

We talk about the need for, you know, bringing everyone together.

And, and, and we do that, like we bring them together into a room and

the group, the industry's very good at facilitation and having group meetings.

But what, where's the why?

So why, why are we doing it and what does it, what does collaboration mean?

Like, so the question I asked, I just had this conversation with somebody

the other day, like, to what end?

So we're gonna send out a survey, we're gonna ask people for

their opinions, but to what end?

So I, I think sometimes we have to challenge ourselves.

We have done this in, in agriculture.

We get around the table, we have discussions with our minister

about the next policy framework.

But to what end?

Like where, where is that going and how is that gonna change

our next policy framework?

Where, where are we seeing, like how are we gonna do different,

how are we gonna move the needle and how do we know we've done it?

Um, that yeah, that would be my, I really, I'm really curious to, to what end.

how do we make sure that the podcast n not only kind of reinforces the

larger a, a c process in terms of enabling the sector, you've kind of created a

challenge that I want us to continue to focus on, which is more than just this new

Hmm.

of leadership, it's the

scouting.

Right that I almost felt that you were creating, uh, not just an opportunity,

but a responsibility for us to find that future leadership, to engage that

future leadership, to create, in my view, a stage for that future leadership.

You know, as we wrap up this conversation, I'm, I'm curious to hear your

thoughts on how we could best do that.

Yeah.

I don't know.

That's my short answer.

I don't know.

I think that there, there's some stuff that we're doing alongside the podcast

that is helpful, like the comments that you've created, which is a website where

people can go in and kind of, you know, chat amongst themselves on certain topics.

I think that's helpful.

I think, um.

That's the first thing that comes to mind.

But I think we gotta put a pin in this.

Like I think this is something that we need to come back to, to really

be intentional to make sure that, you know, we're not just talking about

it, that we can actually act on it.

kind of speaks to another thing that I wanted to bring

up in our conversation today, which we are doing in this episode for

the first time, is to circle back.

there is a tendency in podcasts, there is a tendency in kind of internet

media that you don't look back.

That you just keep creating episodes and you keep going on to the next subject and

versus, I think the power of

herd is in connecting to past episodes, is in revisiting past subjects.

You know, for example, we're doing it now in food security

and at some point we'll probably

Yep.

a different subject.

But we

back to food security at some point in the future and go, what progress have we made?

What have we learned?

I, I, I'm curious to kind of have you, uh, riff off that, respond on

that, but in particular, I'm trying to get you to think about ways in

which we can formalise it, either by you and me coming back every 10 or

Mm.

or, the larger point of engaging people and having

other people help us with this process of, of circling back.

I love this idea.

Circling back, I don't know if it was our actual intent when we started,

but I love the fact that this is where we've landed and I love that it's,

you know, the theme of continuous improvement, continuous learning, right?

I would love to hear from the listeners, are we, are we hitting the mark?

Are we giving you content that is, you know, landing with

you and how is it landing?

Because I could have this great vision that I hope it.

You know, generates new ideas and get you thinking in different perspective.

But is it, I don't know.

Um, and maybe that's where we, you know, we request people's feedback

and I think it would be, you know, as we bring together Camden and Lori and.

Tyler for this panel discussion.

Maybe that's a question we ask them as well.

Like, how do you think this is landing?

Where do you, how do you think this is working as a way for

us to be continually improving?

if we let people know that we are serious about feedback, we want it, then

they'll find a way to give it to us.

I hope.

My challenge to our listeners.

we close, uh, you know, the last question I always

throw to people is a shout out.

Um, but in this case the, uh, almost last question, I, I'm also

gonna have you do a shout out.

'cause I, I'm a big believer in transparency in media production.

That was kind of why I wanted to have you on the

Sure.

so that people knew who else

uh, uh, when they hate.

Particular episodes or who else to celebrate, uh, when they

think that what we're doing is

Uh, do you mind giving a shout out to the other person, uh,

who is an integral part of our production process, but has been too

Yeah,

accept my invitation to

Mr. Peter Catona is sitting in the background every

Monday morning with us Yes.

And not appearing on the podcast, so he deserves a shout out.

Absolutely.

He's with the Agricultural Adaptation Council.

credit for the the

brand, uh, the 'cause it was very much

Yes.

of design.

So a big shout out, uh, to Peter

Yeah.

I, I, do like to ask

is there anything, uh, that we did not, uh, talk about today that you

want to get into before we close?

Yeah, we covered a wide round of topics.

I think we are good for now.

Thank you.

uh, who are the leaders you look up to?

Who are the people who inspire you that either we should be booking as a

or that we should be checking out in the world of media and ideas?

So, yeah, there's a lot then some of them I've already given you

as podcast hosts, so we will let people just hear them as they come up.

But I think there's people who I have watched who I, you know, aspire to

be like Dr. Deb Stark out of Ontario.

She's awesome.

Um, Mike McMorris, who is re sort of retired at the moment, was a huge

mentor of mine and, um, worked with.

Be Farmers of Ontario and livestock research innovation.

Um, oh gosh.

I don't wanna name too many because I know I'm forgetting people, but you

know, my board members who were through all iterations, who provided great

counsel and great leadership, and an incredibly soft place to land when

things went sideways to all of them, I think they deserve a round of applause.

while it does have the risk of getting too far into the weeds,

perhaps a future panel, uh, for the show.

Could be, uh, uh, the nature of boards, what makes a good board member, how to

think about board governance in general.

it is one of those things that's kind of neglected that people don't think about,

Yeah.

a keystone sector, which, you know, now that we're in

the kind of closing, uh, I, I did have a thought at one point that

I'll throw at you to see, uh, as a joke, uh, to, to see what you think.

You know, often in leadership we like to use acronyms like CEO or ed.

But then I thought you're an IED, an improvised explosive device.

Well, what an incendiary leadership position to have.

again,

Perfect.

but it does speak to

Yes.

uh, of the position.

Thanks, Jen, a fantastic episode and we'll have you back on the episode.

Real soon now with the panel,

Thanks so much, Jessie.

It was a good conversation.

I appreciate it.

I certainly intend to have Jen on the podcast,

uh, as frequently as possible.

I think today's conversation, uh, illustrated, uh, the unique

perspective she brings, but also the.

Connections that I think we'll be starting to take advantage

of in the episodes to come.

And of course, uh, we will be having the panel that we've mentioned, uh, shortly.

Uh, if you wanna dive deeper into today's discussion.

But of course, all the episodes that we've done on the future

herd head over to our website.

The future herd.ca where we have show notes, uh, links, knowledge

articles, threads that connect to all the different episodes we've done.

This is our 20th and we have built quite the knowledge base.

In fact, the platform that I've been building around the podcast has both

been a lot of fun to build, but is an.

Interesting piece of software that I suspect we'll be talking

about more, uh, in the future.

Uh, of course you can download our, our elder episodes via

your favourite podcast network.

You can check us out on YouTube.

Um.

Yeah, if you have any feedback, send us an email, uh, tweet us.

Uh, whatever social media of choice.

You could tell everybody why you think the future herd is

a great podcast or terrible.

Uh, but until next time, I'm Jesse Hirsch and this has been the Future Herd.