In this episode, we chat about shopping technology that is changing alongside the news. We have guest Kranti Guduru, who knows all about legacy software languages and the challenges involved in migrating legacy systems to modern ones.

Hosts: William Sikkens, Bill Snodgrass, and Gretchen Winkler

Welcome to

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User Friendly 2.0 with host Bill Sikkens,

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Technology architect.

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And this is User Friendly 2.0

I am your host Bill Sikkens.

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Joining me my co-host Gretchen.

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Bill, welcome to this week's show.

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Welcome to August.

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Hello there. And it's really smoky.

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Yeah it is unfortunately up here

in the Pacific Northwest we're getting the

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smoke from the forest fires

and it has been definitely yucky.

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The smokes one thing,

but what really I don't like about

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that is number one

we're losing the forest.

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This is a burning in an area

by a ski lodge.

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That's a very picturesque area.

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And can you imagine

how many animals are burned to death

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and birds and things like that?

Because it's just all this going on.

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And I know Spokane, Washington,

they're really having some

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trouble up there

because it sounds like an arsonist started

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a huge fire

and has burned over 700 homes in the city.

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You know, it's up to 700 now. Yeah.

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Oh, wow.

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And these type of things are just,

you know, at least the one from

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my understanding that we're dealing with

here in Oregon was lightning, cause.

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So, you know, it's still, it's better

than an arson, but it's still not good.

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So, I don't know, I just give my strongest

support and wishes and positive energy

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to our firefighters and other responders

that are dealing with this.

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Yeah, because I know it's very difficult.

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They don't have the budgets

they need to in a lot of cases.

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And even if they did, it's

not an easy job.

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So more power to them.

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All right. Well, on that positive note,

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hey maybe we need we need cyber hawk.

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Yeah we need hawk.

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We actually need to talk about that

a little bit to a couple coming up.

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Because we're getting a lot of questions

on it.

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Gretchen, people are reading your book.

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Oh well that's

and I hope they're having fun.

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I think we need to put you

on a hot seat interview

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because you're getting a lot of questions

about it. So.

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Okay. Compile those.

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All right.

What do we have in the news this week.

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Well NASA has a virtual guest program.

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Yeah. And this is kind of cool.

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So you know, a lot of times

you watch what NASA is doing,

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a member of the media,

or you're at a location

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where they're doing an event

like launching

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something or whatever the case may be,

they do a lot more than just that, but

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a lot of people can't travel and are not

members of the media, believe it or not.

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So they've been offering a program

that's actually not a new program,

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but it seems like a lot of people

don't necessarily know about this.

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This has been available since 2020.

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So really, what would it be six years now?

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And with 3 million registrations

over 70 events,

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it is something that is getting out there.

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And what this actually is,

is a virtual guest program.

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So you go on, it's free, you sign up

and you get the mission background,

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latest updates, any schedule changes,

educational materials,

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behind the scenes information, links

to live streams, and so on.

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So it would be, I think, more impressive

to actually be at an event.

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But for most of us that can't do that,

this gives you a way to attend virtually,

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where you get a pretty similar experience

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and a chance to see things

that you wouldn't otherwise see.

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So this took off during Covid 19 and

has really been something ever since then.

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And it's NASA virtual guest program,

so NASA does.

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Yeah, I can say this NASA gov.

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National virtual guest program.

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And that's how you get to it.

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Now show that three times really fast

I think so not because I can't,

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but we just don't have the time

in this segment.

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That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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All right.

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The US is investigating

if Iran was behind a cyberattack

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on a water system in seven states,

including Minnesota.

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Yeah.

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And I wanted to understand

this is up to 12 states now.

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But whatever the case may be,

I know in Minnesota alone,

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it was 30 different water systems within

that one state over a 48 hour period.

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The suspects on

this is Iran, Iraq led cyber attacks.

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And the question becomes on this

a couple of things as to

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why this would be the case.

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Well, number one,

obviously water is important and

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what they're trying to do is get in

and damage the water distribution system,

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either by shutting it down or doing things

like putting incorrect chemicals

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in the water and poisoning people.

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There's a lot of different bad things

that they could do with this.

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And one of the reasons

this is being targeted is because

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a lot of municipalities have older

control systems on their water systems,

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so these type of things

are a little easier to hack.

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They have limited cybersecurity budgets,

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so they don't have the greatest

protection against it. And

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what ends

up happening is you have equipment

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that's connected directly to the internet

that wasn't originally designed for that,

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and certainly not the needs of today

to keep it secure.

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So we've been seeing a lot of attacks

on infrastructure, hospital energy

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grids, pipelines, telecommunications

and so on, and now water systems.

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So the idea of this type of a thing is

we do need to be cautious.

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I think we're actually doing pretty good.

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Knock on wood or touch wood,

as those over the pond would say.

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Because we're in a situation

where this has been going on

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and yet we have not seen a major problem.

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That doesn't mean it won't happen,

but so far, so good.

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But vigilance is important.

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And this is why, from our own standpoint,

make sure your stuff is updated.

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Do the updates,

even though sometimes they're a pain

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because that's one of the best ways

you can keep your own system safe.

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And hopefully our leaders will hear that

and do the same thing

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with their systems if they're not already.

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All right.

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In the wake of doomsday, which sounds like

an interesting transition,

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Marvel announces new universe.

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So, okay, I'm glad this is science fiction

and not reality.

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Yeah.

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So Marvel is launching

an entirely new universe, sort of.

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According to their press release,

and Marvel and Webtoon

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have announced a line of original digital

first comics that are designed

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specifically for smartphones.

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So basically what's happening here is

they're not just scanning comic books,

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which is what that sounded like to me,

but they are doing this from the ground

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up to do webtoons

signature vertical scrolling format,

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which they have pioneered

to make these things work well on phones.

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So this isn't replacing Marvel Comics,

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its opening a front door

to a different audience, basically.

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Yeah, something, you know, I would

I don't think I'd like that.

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It would be so tiny, you know.

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And, you know, the artists go through

all that trouble to draw the artwork.

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I want to be able to see it and enjoy it.

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Well, the thing of it is, is

you're still going to have this on this.

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And from what I understand,

it's still going to remain. Marvel's

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been pretty good about real artists,

not AI, you know, that kind of thing.

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So they're still going to be doing that.

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It's just going to be

a digital format of it.

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So you're still seeing

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you're still seeing the same thing

you would in the comic books.

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It's just on your phone screen,

and it's designed

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so that you can scroll it

instead of having to turn pages.

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So, you know, the one thing about it

I will say is

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this is a lot of the younger generation

doesn't go to the comic book shop anymore.

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They may not even be available

in their areas.

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You know, a lot has changed.

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So it's a way to be able to experience

comic books and these this type of thing

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without, you know, being denied that

because you can't get a physical copy.

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And one of the other things that I think

is going to be interesting on

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this is I think this will upsell

the comic books, too,

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because somebody interested in

this would go to Amazon or some other,

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you know, Barnes and Noble or whatever,

and buy them

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if they would know about them.

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So the first one

that's going to be on this

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or I don't, the first one, but

one of the ones that they're announcing

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is going to be Deadpool.

So I'm going to find it interesting.

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I will try it out and see

what it is and report back.

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Data center

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approvals in Texas

halted until audits completed.

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So this is an interesting thing,

and one that doesn't shock me

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because there's been

a lot of concern about this.

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So the Texas Tribune is reporting

on this whole cobbler wrote it.

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And basically what's going on

here is due to the public

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backlash of the rapid

build out of data centers.

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They're doing a stop on them

until regulatory

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agencies can audit proposed data center

seeking connections

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with the state, electrical grid, water

and other things.

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So they haven't announced

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how long this is going to take

or any of the other details yet.

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But basically what's going on here,

not just in Texas, but a lot of places,

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is data centers

always have used a lot of power with AI.

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They're really using a lot of power now

to the point that it's causing problems

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where the normal subscriber

to an electrical grid, say, in your town

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doesn't always have electricity dependably

because the data center

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is taking so much of it

up and it's cooling

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AI and a number of other things

that are going on here.

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Power is important.

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Microsoft announced a while back

that they are buying a nuclear reactor

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and restarting it

to power their data centers,

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so that just goes to show you the scope of

what is going on here.

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And, you know,

I would think that with those big, huge

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buildings,

they put solar panels and those little

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the little windmills on the

buildings, why don't they?

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You're asking me that?

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I'm not sure the building is

building stuff, okay.

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Because to me

that seems like a no brainer.

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Answer your question.

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In a lot of cases, alternative energy

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is being used as part of it,

but it does not generate

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enough power to be able

to cover the entire use of a data center.

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It just does not.

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I was just thinking it might help.

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So it's not. Yeah,

and it definitely is an augmentation.

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One of the other things too

is data centers use water.

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A little bit of an aside

to this specific topic.

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We're seeing them build out

data center in places

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like Arizona

and the Sahara Sonoran Desert,

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which seems a little strange to me

on that front too,

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because, well, you could get

a lot of power from solar, certainly.

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Where are you gonna get the water?

So these are problems.

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We all use these data centers.

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Everybody, right now you're using a data

center listening to our show.

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It's just the way the world works now.

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But on the same token,

hopefully this will create

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some motivation for developers

to figure out a way to use less energy.

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And actually, I'm

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seeing that with some of the new AI builds

and stuff topic to talk about later

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that they're engineering

now using AI to back this up a little bit.

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So I think there's going to be

a lot of different approaches to this.

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But certainly the state

putting a moratorium on it makes sense

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because I don't know about you,

but I like to know that

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when I hit the light switch,

the lights are going to

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come on and my power is not being used

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somewhere else

that I still have to pay for. So

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yeah.

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Oh boy.

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Our pepper spray drones

headed for schools.

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So this is a funny thing.

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This was an Instagram video.

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Gretchen, I know you found and sent over

and I'm looking at this and you know,

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a lot of what you find on social media,

let's just say needs to be fact.

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And there's this video

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that has drones flying through classrooms,

breaking through windows,

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looking like some of the technology

is hitting a mannequin, you know?

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Exactly.

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And you're kind of going,

okay, you know, I think, Bill,

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before we started recording,

you made the comment.

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What could go wrong, right.

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So there is truth to this story,

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but it's not quite like that.

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Fortunately, in my opinion.

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But what they are looking at doing

is having drones

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that can be remotely operated.

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So they're not autonomous either.

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That can be used

in the event of active shooter situations

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and other threats

like that to our schools.

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So when this happens,

they can send one of these drones

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into the classroom

and try to nullify the shooter situation.

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I can see where

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that would be of an extreme benefit

because it takes people out of harm's way,

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hopefully takes our kids out of harm's way

when these things happen.

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And the other side of it

is, is deterrence are a big deal.

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So you're looking at a situation here that

if a program like this was successful,

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maybe it'll cut back on the shooter

situation a little bit too.

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So there is a place

for this type of thing,

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but not quite what was being promoted

in that Instagram video.

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You know,

it looked like something out of sci fi,

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and I'm glad that's

where that's remaining.

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But I can see a project like this

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being

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something that would be something

that was usable.

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So some of the backstory on it.

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A company in Texas called

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Campus Guardian Angel

is rolling out the pilot program for this.

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They're trying it out in some schools

in Florida, Georgia and Colorado.

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Again, the drones are remotely operated

by train human pilots,

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not all AI making its own decisions.

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They're tended only

for active shooter situations.

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And they can use a combination of video

sirens, flashing lights, pepper gel and,

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as a last resort,

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physically ramming into the attacker

to slow them down until police arrive.

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Now, being said that,

you know, having something like this

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in the schools based on the video

would have bad things happen.

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On the flip side,

if you have someone in the school

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threatening our students, I think using

whatever is needed to nullify

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that up to and including deadly force

is completely appropriate.

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So having it from that standpoint

makes sense.

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As long as there's a human operator

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actually operating the drone,

you know, which there is. So.

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Well, talking about possible robots,

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the FCC to ban on foreign made robots,

including robot vacuums.

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So we talked about this

a little bit last week on the ban.

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But this is where sometimes

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I think our leaders

need to think things through a little bit.

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But there actually is some use for this

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and I understand

where they're coming from.

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So originally,

the way that this was announced to

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the media was that it was humanoid robots.

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Okay.

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So whatever your opinion may be on that,

that's what they were talking about.

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But however, it's a little bit

more than that,

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because the way it's worded is that the

FCC has made this through some expansion

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and some of the original bill,

that it's now advanced robotic devices.

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So that isn't just humanoid robots.

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It includes many of the robot vacuums,

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robotic lawnmowers,

and other things that we use every day.

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So basically, if you already own a robotic

vacuum or related, nothing changes.

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Your Roomba is not going to stop working,

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although it might because of the problems

with the company.

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But the actual FCC controls

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here are not affecting that

it's future made models,

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and why they're doing

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this is not that the FCC is too concerned

about the state of your carpet,

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which is fortunate, but

it's more about what the devices can do.

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So modern robotic vacuums,

just to use that as an example,

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have multiple cameras,

microphones on some models, leader

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mapping systems for your house, Wi-Fi

and Bluetooth connectivity,

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detailed floor plans of your home

with cloud connectivity.

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Bill.

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What could possibly go wrong there?

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They're worried about spying

then? Yes, yes.

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Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Okay.

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And it is, in my opinion, a valid concern.

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Well,

you could have predators take over these,

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these little vacuums

and spy on women and children and men.

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You know, you walk around your house,

you could be

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in your underwear or less

and that could be bad.

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Well, that being one thing.

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But the other side of this too, is

and I decided this before,

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but a number of years ago,

I was involved in a thing

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that where we were doing some testing

on really what could the bad guys do

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with the information that's out there.

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Now, this was done prior Covid,

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I remember this story.

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Yeah. Prior to a lot of the technology

we have now.

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And with that, it was still possible

using social media and information

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from a phone to figure out minor child's

where she was at all times,

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where her classroom was in her school,

where her bedroom was in her house.

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You know, that kind of a thing,

which is just downright scary.

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Now fast forward to 2026.

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Again, this technology has moved

in a direction like you talk about cameras

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in your house and these kind of things,

and this stuff is being attacked.

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And we have had some issues

over the years of bad guys, bad actors

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getting into in-home security cameras

and other things and monitoring people

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and doing all kinds of

other really creepy stuff.

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So you take it a step further

and look at kind of

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what's going on with our technology.

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Now, this does make sense

to try to reel this in

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and get some regulations in place

to just make sure our things are secure.

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Now, that being said, one of the questions

that we get asked all the time

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and one of the ones that I unfortunately

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can't really answer for obvious

reasons, is how do you hack?

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Okay,

but it is interesting to look at this from

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a standpoint of what

this kind of thing means.

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So I did a little checking earlier

this year.

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I'm going to be covering this

on a special edition episode.

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We're going to be doing this

fall on hacking.

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And I'm not going to teach you how

to hack, so don't get ramped up for that.

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But we are going to talk about some of

the things that can be done with it.

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And I got a few routers

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and cameras and things off of Amazon

and some other places like that to,

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you know, some of the

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Chinese sites,

just to see what we were absolutely

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dealing with here in the software on

some of these things was so bad

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that it is possible very easily.

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I don't even know

if it'd be called hacking.

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The system just does not have security,

and you can go on passwords

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and do all that you want, and it just

simply doesn't matter, you know?

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So it is definitely a concern.

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I can see where this is something

that they really should dial back on.

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On the flip side, name brands

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and some of the better quality technology

like this,

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like your ring and other such things

do seem to be reasonably secure.

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Now, I say that with a standpoint

that anything can be hacked,

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so the better you do your security,

the less likely it is.

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But there you are.

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You know what?

Are you guys opinion on this?

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Are you concerned about this?

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Yeah. Yeah I am now.

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Well yeah.

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You know, I don't

think we need to be paranoid about it,

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but I do think there are some things

where you get what you pay for.

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And in this particular

set of circumstances, it is important

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to make sure you get reputable equipment

when you do this.

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I have cameras in my house

because I have a senior mother, and

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I need to be able to know that she's okay,

you know, I do the same thing.

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And but I also make sure

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that they're not pointed in areas

where people need to remain private.

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Yeah, well, I do the same thing,

but there's still a camera

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at the top of my stairs,

and it needs to be there, you know?

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Yeah.

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And I certainly wouldn't

want some creepy weirdo, you know,

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or worse, a state actor of some kind

looking in on my camera, I just wouldn't.

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Oh, boy.

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Okay,

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here's another thing going on, and I'm

not exactly sure where this one's going.

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Kitchen appliance sold at Amazon, Home

depot

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recalled after one death and 34 fires.

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So what's going on here?

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Well, what's going on is if you have

this appliance, you should stop using it.

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Oh, well.

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Duh. It's.

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So the manufacturer of this is gallons.

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Gallons. I'm probably mispronouncing that.

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The product is called Retro refrigerators.

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And looking at the picture,

they're actually kind of cool.

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About 121,680 of these have been sold.

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And what happened

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is, is the internal electrical components

can short circuit and ignite.

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That's not something you want with

your refrigerator or anything else. No.

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So if you have one

retro are the components.

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Did they go to the junkyard?

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I think they would have done

better with that.

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I think they got the cheapest components

they could find.

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This is my opinion,

but from looking at this stuff,

389

got the cheapest components they could

find, cobbled it together, made the device

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and it's not handling the power properly

because what's in there is not designed

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to be able to handle the power

that's going through it. And

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there's a device in electronics.

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I'll go down this rabbit hole a little,

a little bit called a mOSFET

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or a transistor

that control turning motors on and off.

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Right. It's a switch.

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And I've seen this in a lot of things

where they're

397

using a device that's not rated

for the power consumption that's required.

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Now, if you do this on a low

voltage device,

399

something that runs on batteries,

that type of a thing

400

that's most that's going to happen

is the device will stop working

401

when the transistor or related item

burns out.

402

But if you're running mains voltage,

you know, 110 here in the States and other

403

parts of the world to 20 through that,

it will ignite because it overheats.

404

And that's a bad thing

when it causes a fire.

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So if you have one of these devices, check

with Amazon or Home Depot.

406

That's where they were sold or checked

with the manufacturer's website or the US

407

Consumer Product Safety Commission

to find out

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if yours has been recalled

and what to do about it.

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I believe they are refunding the money,

but again,

410

this may be different

depending on what the specific case is.

411

I don't know if there's a fix available

for them, but definitely something.

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Please be careful and please check it out.

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So that being said, let's talk

about some changes in technology.

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And this is one that we got

a number of questions in about.

415

And it's kind of an interesting topic

because it affects pretty much all of us.

416

And that's a technology

that we, most of us have probably

417

used all of our life, if not most of it,

depending on your generation.

418

It's something that's been out there

since the 70s and that's UPC barcodes.

419

So when you go to a grocery store

or a target

420

or whatever, Walmart, any place like that,

there's a barcode.

421

And when you go to pay for the item

at the self-check, you scan the barcode.

422

If you still have a store

where they actually have people

423

that will do that for you,

the checker will scan it.

424

But that is how it works.

425

And what this does is it rings up the item

so that the checkers

426

not manually entering the amounts,

so there's not an error on that end.

427

Or worse yet,

you know, it would never happen.

428

But if that was manual, in this day

and age,

429

I have a feeling that it could be possible

430

that sometimes they would under

431

charge for their friends,

you know, stuff like that.

432

So it makes it automatic.

433

And this has been a situation.

434

So five decades we've all seen them.

435

Yeah. What's happening.

Are they going away.

436

They're being replaced

and we're getting something new.

437

So you're still going to be able to go

to the self-check and scan your stuff out.

438

But it's being swapped out

for basically a QR code.

439

First scan happened in 1974 by the way.

440

So that gives you an idea of it.

441

Wiggles.

442

Juicy Fruit gum was the first item scan.

443

So just a little bit

of information on that. Yeah

444

okay.

445

But that being said, what

we've got going on here is

446

the new codes

can handle a lot more information.

447

And we were just talking about product

recalls.

448

This is one of the things

when you scan your item,

449

it will know what the lot number is.

450

That came from where it came from,

if it's been recalled,

451

if it's a food item, if it's expired,

452

or there's a problem like that

and automatically be able to tell you.

453

And because we can scan QR codes

with our phone, if you have a device

454

that's questionable or a product

that's questionable,

455

you can scan the code after you buy it

456

and see if there's a recall,

that kind of a thing.

457

And there's a lot more information

that this will be able

458

to track for the retailers, for the point

of sale systems and that kind of thing.

459

But it's next year.

460

My understanding

when these are going to be phased

461

in, we'll be seeing both codes side

by side for a while

462

until things are upgraded.

463

But at the end of the day,

that's what's happening.

464

All right.

We're about out of time for the segment.

465

Join us for our next segment.

466

We're going to be talking

about old programing languages.

467

This is user friendly 2.0.

We'll be back after the break.

468

He's from the future.

469

He's got a really big computer

470

and he uses it uses it every day.

471

And he uses it uses it in every way.

472

What he uses for

you know, I'm not that sure

473

because we used it here.

474

Welcome back.

475

This is user friendly 2.0.

Check out our website.

476

User friendly show is your one

stop for questions, comments, back

477

episodes and everything

else. User friendly.

478

Check us out at User Friendly Show.

479

So we talk technology a lot here

480

that this is a technology

and pop culture show that does make sense.

481

And one of the things we do look at is

where technology has come from.

482

And in coming weeks,

we're going to be covering

483

some of that in a little more detail.

484

History on things based on a lot of

the questions and comments you've sent in.

485

And this week,

we'd like to invite our guest,

486

who is going to be joining us here

in a minute,

487

who's going to be talking about COBOL.

488

Now, for people of my generation,

we've heard of this language

489

COBOL, Fortran, these were the standard

490

And fast forward ahead to 2026.

491

We're here

492

using a lot more modern languages

in some cases, but a lot of things

493

still run on these old,

many computers, mainframes and that type

494

of thing that need to be migrated

over the systems work pretty well.

495

But the problem is, is that in a lot of

cases, you can't get the parts anymore.

496

You can't get support on

something made in the 70s.

497

I can see that being a problem,

but you're dealing with a situation

498

where not only is the language

499

COBOL that it's in completely different

from anything we're dealing with now,

500

so is the platform.

501

You might have a database

that you need to move over,

502

and it's not like you do it

now where you export it.

503

You have to do a lot of different things.

504

Even the hardware is different.

505

So joining us today is our guest

who is going to be speaking of this

506

a little bit.

507

And some of the things that they're doing

to be able to solve this problem.

508

And welcome to User Friendly.

509

Go ahead and introduce yourself and

tell us a little bit about what you do.

510

Thank you so much. My name is Mark guru.

511

Or I do have a 19

plus years of industry experience

512

on different components that includes

different technologies, different flavors.

513

But my area of specialization

is application modernization.

514

That is, when we talk about application

modernization, that end

515

to end, we're not sticking to the one

single layer here.

516

And I work with multi-million companies,

and I would say that

517

fortune 500 of watching in companies,

as well as supported all of them

518

on a different products, it's a part based

and also consulting firms had a lot of

519

assessments for some of the

520

projects, friendly projects as well.

521

So let's dive into modernization.

522

I know one of the things that you know

a little bit about is our old friend

523

COBOL, and this comes up

sometimes in a history class,

524

but I also know

I worked for a bank for a while.

525

This is still widely deployed.

526

I mean, you know,

you see it all over the place,

527

but it's a language that it's becoming

harder and harder to find support for.

528

Tell us a little bit about that

529

and what it would take to modernize

that kind of a system.

530

Yeah, it's a COBOL is everybody knew

531

that COBOL is really the complicated

532

language.

533

I would say that because there are less

534

experts, which are right now

because most of the experts

535

who develop this,

who own this, who written this code,

536

they already retired

and they are going to.

537

So that is the opportunity.

538

I would say that where we need

to get going and see how to

539

and as you need to understand this,

to what level the dependencies

540

on this COBOL language,

541

they develop the application

and then you need to work reverse.

542

You need to do a kind of a reverse

engineering

543

where you need to understand

dependencies, integrations,

544

how the application flow is working on

what are some of the things

545

which you cannot modernize,

what you have to read, write it, redo it.

546

So so I would start from that point

547

when we talk more

about the COBOL modernization.

548

So many of the many of the clients

or many of the consultants.

549

Exactly.

That's where they're going to miss it.

550

When they say COBOL conversion

or the modernization,

551

they focus solely on this code

and they never mind

552

about the dependencies,

integration, years of efforts

553

which the exports, which they developed

in order that application to function.

554

So that ecosystem being missed

when somebody

555

get themselves

involved in this modernization effort.

556

So that part is really critical

for us to get going, not only the code.

557

That's where I'll start from.

558

From step as a step one.

559

So it sounds like it's easy for clients

to overlook the complications

560

and the years of changes

that have been done

561

to the software,

or how the software talks to other

562

attributes.

563

So is that a good question?

Yeah, yeah. That's right.

564

Because what happens is imagine

that that's a

565

was application

566

And right now it's almost like

we are talking about nearly 40 years.

567

Somebody already joined the aged out there

retired and somebody new joined.

568

They don't even know

569

the roots of the application

how that application being developed.

570

On what basis?

571

Yeah.

572

Well they can say yes,

this is well but if something breaks,

573

no, they're not going to fix it because

they don't have those documentation.

574

Because if we you know, I in my experience

there are a lot of scenarios.

575

We don't have enough documentation

to go back to the roots and say,

576

hey, this is what this is how it built

and this is what it is.

577

Now let's go and fix that now.

578

Lack of documentation also impacts

579

the understanding of the application

or troubleshooting the issue.

580

So your point is absolutely right.

581

They're going to miss a lot of components

around here when they look

582

into this modernization effort

or before the modernization effort.

583

If something happened

they don't even know what's going on.

584

So this is a high risk

when we talk about the banking

585

sector, insurance and also defense system.

586

There's a lot going on with it.

587

If something they cannot troubleshoot it,

that's it.

588

They're not going to come out from that

scenario and it's going to be huge impact.

589

Now you talk about I think you said

590

800 billion lines of COBOL code

still exist out there.

591

What industries do you see this?

592

And I know banking is one of them,

but that can't be the only one.

593

If banking, defense, the insurance

companies, all these companies

594

which exist from almost decades,

they do have this mainframe in their DNA

595

and there's DNA we have to shift and lift.

596

Sometimes it is lift and shift.

597

Sometimes you need to rewrite

most of the time.

598

So again, this again

falls under the lack of documentation

599

and also the kind of approach

which we would like to pick.

600

It depends on the

601

bits and pieces information

which as part of requirements we gather.

602

So yes, there are 800 plus.

603

I would say that more than

604

I mean,

it sounds like it could be stressful,

605

especially if you're thinking about, oh,

the banking industry where you could

606

screw up records

and people lose their money.

607

Or if you're talking Defense Department,

oh gosh, what could go wrong there?

608

Exactly.

609

It's highly stressful

because, as I said, the ecosystem

610

understanding somebody,

somebody saying, yes, I'm expert in this.

611

I would say that okay.

612

Did you go through the ecosystem?

613

Because in ecosystem

614

these are all something

which or bits and pieces puzzles.

615

It's not like,

616

you know,

617

you bought an Apple phone and now you have

some Apple Charge or something.

618

No, it's not like that. It's

not organized.

619

It's more of a bits and pieces of puzzle

where you need to form

620

that as an ecosystem.

621

You need to understand that, and then once

you understand, then you need to map it

622

to the modern technologies of modern

hardware, modern platform.

623

What is a solution?

624

You want to bring it on the table.

625

So that's itself

626

we call as a discovery period

and which actually consumes a lot of time.

627

Imagine that your project

628

signed up for two years,

almost like four months, five months.

629

Sometimes you will spend you need to spend

on the discovery period itself.

630

Otherwise, if this discovery is something,

if you miss,

631

then whatever you do,

it will not get connected.

632

End of the day,

you will end up with the problem.

633

You'll end up with a lot of issues

because now it is.

634

There are so many companies

who are working with a

635

modernization effort, but

how many companies are being successful?

636

That's very important point,

which we need to understand

637

because I know this is a

638

this is a multi I would say

that hundreds of thousands of dollars,

639

when somebody is coming up and saying,

hey, I'm going to do this project for you.

640

But how many companies are thorough

with that process?

641

How many people,

how many people are experts in this area?

642

That's very important.

643

Well, yeah, you would definitely

want someone to know what they're doing.

644

And how do you figure that out?

645

Because, you know,

646

even in modern programing

there's a lot of really good programmers.

647

But there are a few that,

648

you know,

649

if you get involved with them,

650

you're never going to have

a finished project or worse.

651

What are some of the things pitfalls

people can look at?

652

Ways that people can figure out

how to find somebody to work with.

653

Yeah. So.

654

Two things here.

655

One thing is the first thing

is the background of what project.

656

What were the some of the projects

which they completed?

657

That is the very first thing.

658

And second thing is what level of the code

base or a data conversion.

659

They participated in it because these two

are two pillars I would call that for.

660

I would call it.

661

As for the mainframe modernization,

662

any of the pillar,

they don't have enough expertise.

663

Then that would be very hard to make sure

the project go live successfully.

664

And also the requirement phase

as I discussed earlier.

665

So the discovery period that we call it

as that discovery period,

666

what is their experience

in their discovery period?

667

How are they going to get requirements?

668

Or believe me when I say this,

even at the client side,

669

most of them, they don't even know

there are certain critical items.

670

They don't have documentation.

671

They don't if they ask you, okay,

how this application, how this code

672

is supporting this feature, they said, no,

we don't know that because we don't have

673

it is working. You are working with it.

674

That's

why we need some expertise to work in.

675

Help us move this code from the mainframe

to the latest technologies.

676

That's where we.

677

That's so many times

I heard that answer from clients.

678

Client team especially.

679

So they are helpless.

680

In one way,

I would say that they are helpless.

681

They need some help on this one as well.

682

Well, you know, your computer

683

platform can be your business

in a lot of cases it is.

684

And, you know,

685

and you kind of touched upon this

a little earlier,

686

but I want to ask a little bit

more about it because we're not talking,

687

you know, upgrading from Windows

8 to Windows 10, you're dealing with 40,

688

50 year old systems, which means

the hardware is completely different.

689

None of the standardization are there.

690

It's not like

you can put a flash drive in it or even

691

I mean, in those days, copying data

between them was a bit of a challenge.

692

How do you even get in

if you have something

693

with like a large database

and that type of thing?

694

Is there a process in place

to be able to do that

695

come from a mainframe to modern,

you know, cloud hosting or whatever it is

696

you might be doing?

And how does that work?

697

So that was reportedly

I was using the discovery period.

698

Right? In the discovery period,

you will understand.

699

For example, the client right now

in the mainframe is DB2.

700

And then they wanted to go on Java

from Java.

701

They want to jump on the modern platforms.

702

They want they can go on the or

703

or they can go on the DB2.

704

They can go on the SQL server.

705

Again, the choice

of going on those platforms depends on the

706

the conversion part, the core

which you are getting from the mainframe.

707

If your mainframe code is okay,

let me put it in this way.

708

If you want to go to the deep

from DB2 mainframe to DB2,

709

AWS EC2 instance,

710

most of the time it is a

you will do is a lift and shift,

711

and some part of the code

you will rewrite it, but not everything.

712

But if you want to go from your mainframe

to the Oracle or a SQL server platform,

713

there are certain elements

which will be involved, like

714

you need to do a lot of rewriting and also

how your application will function.

715

What is that?

716

You are looking at it.

717

So how many tables

you are bringing on table?

718

How much data

you are bringing on to table?

719

What effort

you are going to keep to do a code

720

rewriting,

or you're going to just lift and shift it.

721

When you lift and shift it will

your code will your application functions

722

as it is functioning in mainframe

once it reaches its destination in DB2.

723

So these are all the components

which you need to think.

724

And also there is a lot of automation

nowadays we are doing in it.

725

Earlier there was everything is manual.

726

But right now since last few years,

I would say that few years

727

we started working on a lot of automation.

728

We developed certain utilities

which will help us converting the code

729

into the natural, into the Java,

and from Java that is going to convert

730

into the sequels, those sequels

you will be deploying in the your target.

731

It can be DB2 or it can be Oracle.

732

So you're going to deploy them

in the your database layer.

733

So this is the end to end

734

on a very high level

I would say that this is how you do that.

735

Yeah.

736

So yeah wow you're talking just data.

737

What happens if

738

your your

your software is actually talking

739

to hardware

that's programed with old stuff.

740

And if you don't realize that

that could be really bad

741

I'll give you one.

742

Let me give you one example.

743

In one of the recent projects,

what happened is the mainframe.

744

They do have this DB2.

745

And then we almost for the actual project

divided into two phases.

746

So the first phase

we have only two applications

747

we want to bring as a

as part of the testing.

748

And the client

749

want to see how this is going to happen,

because it's almost like 40 plus years.

750

They never touched about,

I mean, moving away from the mainframe

751

or anything

because they're really worried.

752

And this is a federal claim

and they don't want to do anything to it

753

unless it is very much proven.

754

So the case is here.

755

There are we we we are

756

we are successful in getting the data

of boarded from the mainframe.

757

But there are certain tables

which we cannot do that.

758

Now, the question is, if you are unable

to bring the complete data out

759

of that mainframe, then you will not call

that as an complete migration.

760

So where I'm coming from is

there will be a tailor

761

made solutions for everything

in the application modernization area.

762

So what we've done is

we worked with another vendor there.

763

They're called as a rocket.

764

And they do this

kind of a replication between any

765

they developed a replication tool

between any source to any target.

766

So what we have done is

we started replicating the data

767

from mainframe to the the target oracle,

768

instead of

769

copying everything,

moving out everything in this way

770

we we copy we replicated in a

it's a live replication.

771

We did it for almost 75 days.

772

And then we, we had this breakpoint,

773

which means that a cut over on a weekend,

774

we did a cut over in the application

connected within Oracle point here.

775

So why I'm bringing this is

this is really really hard

776

because our application

is so much optimized to the mainframe.

777

And if all of a sudden

if you want to bring it and attach it

778

to the different target

modernize platforms,

779

we have, we face a lot of challenges

and we learned a lot.

780

We developed a lot of tailor

made solutions like

781

this is the one simple example

which I explained.

782

It's not

I would say it's not an easy task.

783

Now I'm going to ask about

784

an example because this was something

that I experienced with.

785

It was a government project,

and this was a few years ago,

786

and they were on a mainframe

COBOL type set up.

787

Like what we've been talking about.

788

And their solution,

I didn't work with the conversion,

789

and I'm what

I didn't because I still have hair.

790

I don't think I would have

791

if I had been involved

with what they were doing,

792

because what they were trying to do

was say, okay, we're going to replicate

793

the mainframe in a virtual host

on a new environment, and they set it up.

794

And it would

they never did get it to work.

795

And I think it's what you were saying

is it's tied to the hardware in some way.

796

Have you ever seen

something like that work or is it always

797

where you do have to actually convert

it over to something modern?

798

So what is the point which you think

799

a little bit in this situation

or not able to comprehend what went there?

800

I would like you to repeat

that one more time for me,

801

so that I can put my mind there

and answer your question.

802

Just repeat that. What is absolutely no.

803

So what was going on is

they had the legacy system,

804

and they didn't really want to get

into rewriting

805

the actual cobalt software.

806

So what they wanted

and there was a hardware failure

807

part of this that they couldn't fix.

808

So they tried to recreate

the original mainframe virtually.

809

Oh, okay.

810

Got it.

811

Like I said, that didn't work too well.

812

No, no.

813

So there are certain tools right now,

814

most of the huge companies

they developed in host,

815

what they're going to do

is they're going to bring their data

816

into their utility, into their tool,

and then that tool will actually do

817

this conversion into the different

whatever your target is.

818

But end of the day, if your target

is equal server Oracle or if your DB2,

819

it will develop the sequence where

you need to go ahead and deploy those.

820

Even right now, the automation

reach it to a certain extent,

821

to third extent that all you have to do

is build a pipeline.

822

The data will travel through the pipeline

to the staging and from staging.

823

That conversion will happen

and from their data will use

824

another pipeline

which will send it to the database.

825

Now, the human intervention

826

is very much required

because the character set issues or the

827

worker issues, there are a lot of issues

which will jump into the picture.

828

You need to sort that out

and then you will correct the data.

829

You will correct those lens

calmness and everything

830

and then you will send it to the target.

831

Yeah,

832

there are so many

833

options right now

because this is something each and every

834

consulting company would like to move

ahead and challenge this project.

835

But thing is,

this will definitely take take.

836

Definitely.

837

It will take decades

for all the existing organizations

838

to move away from the mainframe.

839

It's not going to happen immediately

in next, you know, 5 or 6 years.

840

This has got a great life.

841

Who is doing this modernization effort?

842

So is your client base

strictly people doing

843

conversions?

844

So conversions

845

as well as rewriting Ellsworth.

846

Okay, that sounds that sounds good.

847

So tell us,

how does somebody get Ahold of you?

848

Okay,

so when you say somebody get hold of me.

849

Since I work with

and I'm not a freelancer, I'm

850

working with an organization,

so it's a tough

851

I would say it's a for profit organization

in this world.

852

Right. Consulting firm. So

853

the moment we have

854

this Ahrefs and all those we work,

we go ahead

855

and give this presentation to the client

and we refer to that.

856

We understand what

what is their pain area. Why is that?

857

They are looking for this opportunity

to move away from the mainframe.

858

And then we'll spend more time

to articulate and ensure that we

859

give them a very good presentation

saying that, hey,

860

this is your problem,

this is what we want to do.

861

Or these are the multiple approaches

talking about the budget

862

and all those things. So that's sort of

863

the flow is so that's

how somebody can catch

864

hold of a person who is working for

this kind of data conversion

865

and data rewriting, application

modernization.

866

Now I mean sounds amazing.

867

Is there anything

else you want to tell us?

868

I would say that this has got

a great future right now where would like

869

to invest their learning things

because they in doubt everybody is on AI.

870

I would agree.

871

Yes, you need to be on,

872

but at the same time

you are looking at a decade future here.

873

So I'm sure that if somebody really

wants to invest on because this is not

874

particularly about the core,

every component is involved in this.

875

You talk about hardware,

you talk about code, you talk about AI,

876

you talk about logical thinking,

how you would like to tailor the solution.

877

Because every solution cannot

be applied to the companies

878

which are approaching us

for this kind of modernization effort.

879

So it gives immense,

880

I would say, experience

as well as you need to be more

881

and you need to you need to be.

882

More importantly, I would say that

a large scale thing as it'll roll.

883

Otherwise

if you say that okay, this is a solution

884

I implement in X, y, z company,

I will implement 1 to 3.

885

No, it's not going to happen.

886

And I shared my articles as well as in

many of the forums as well as.

887

So I was speaking with some of the

I was developing networking on this as,

888

so I had a quite a few conferences,

889

which I happen when I have some time.

890

Then believe me,

out of the interest on this,

891

I started doing my doctorate as well.

892

So I was really, really impressed.

893

The way we are articulating

and touch pacing within each

894

and every piece of the technology. Mostly

895

ready.

896

Well,

listen, thanks so much for joining us.

897

This has all been really interesting.

898

And the more I'm looking at it,

I'm glad experts like you are out there,

899

because I'm not sure I'd want to

900

or even be able

901

to deal with something like that,

but it is a very valid what you bring up,

902

because there is so much out there

that still runs a surprising amount.

903

You would never guess that much code

is still running on stuff

904

that was written in the 70s and 80s

so well.

905

Thank you again for joining us today.

906

Thank you so much. Have a good day.

907

Talk to you again.

908

Let me ask you guys a question

on using computers.

909

Gretchen, what was your first desktop home

micro that you used?

910

Oh. What brand?

911

What kind?

912

Yeah. Oh, it was an Atari.

913

Atari St, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

914

And, Bill, I believe yours was a Commodore

Vic 20, right? Yep.

915

Okay, so let's say

916

today you had stuff that you wanted

to pull off of either of those computers.

917

In the case of Bill, your Commodore,

probably on a cassette tape,

918

although they did have disk drives,

but it probably be on a cassette tape.

919

Gretchen. Jaws would be on a 3.5in floppy.

920

What if you

in a completely different language?

921

It was a different language,

different format.

922

And modern computers

don't even have a disk drive,

923

usually much less a tape drive.

924

And, you know,

925

so this is the kind of things

that they're dealing with

926

for being able to pull over these systems.

927

And believe it or not,

there's a lot of stuff still on this

928

banking, insurance, other things

he spoke to a little bit, but we still see

929

the old mini and mainframe stuff

around in a lot of different cases.

930

I'm just wondering how we would do that.

931

You know, it's interesting,

Bill, in your case, with a cassette,

932

you probably have to find a tape player

somewhere which you can do,

933

play it on to an MP or your phone

or something to get it digital,

934

and then play that back into the computer

with some kind of a decoder.

935

Do you think that would work?

936

Yeah, it would work. Yeah. Okay.

937

When you use virtualization

for running the old platforms

938

and you load off a tape,

that's how you do it now is with an MP3.

939

So because you're just playing an audio

file, basically

940

analog or digital,

it doesn't care as long as it can read it.

941

Rich in yours is a little more complicated

942

because you can't do that

with a floppy disk.

943

And while there are USB

944

3.5in drives for the PC that you can get,

at least I think you still can.

945

You're looking at a different situation

because, like you say,

946

the formatting is completely different.

947

So this is an issue and it gets older

computers, the more of an issue it is.

948

Until next week.

949

This is user friendly 2.0 keeping

you safe on the cutting edge.

950

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951

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952

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953

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954

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955

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956

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