In this episode, I speak with April Baker, CEO of the loneliness charity TogetherCo, about combatting loneliness and isolation by improving your social health. They discuss the differences between being alone, loneliness, and isolation. April shares her personal struggles with loneliness in her twenties while outwardly appearing to have an active social life.

We explore how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted people's social connections and mental health, especially for those already isolated or lonely. They talk about how to strengthen social health even for busy, successful people who still feel lonely. April offers practical tips like taking stock of your current relationships, performing small acts of kindness daily, and getting involved in your community through volunteering.

Key Takeaways:

- Loneliness is feeling disconnected even if you're around people; isolation is being unable to leave home or interact.

- You can appear to have an active social life online but still feel profound loneliness.

- The pandemic severely affected social health for many, especially older adults.

- Strengthen social health by taking stock of key relationships, showing kindness daily, and volunteering in your community.

- Making social health a priority is just as important as diet and exercise for overall wellbeing.

Quotes and insights from the episode:

"Loneliness is feeling disconnected even if you're around people...you could be lonely in a room full of people and look like you’ve got loads of friends."

"Loneliness is as bad for us as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It really is a killer."

"The pandemic was a destroyer for some people, some people I know, older people... Soon as that was taken away, their mobility went right down, their movement went right down, their health often collapsed."

"Everybody deserves somebody. We come, we don’t come into this world fully alone...we shouldn’t go out on our own as well. And then sadly, people do."

"Making social health a priority is just as important as diet and exercise for overall wellbeing."

April's Quote:

"Loneliness is feeling disconnected even if you're around people...you could be lonely in a room full of people and look like you’ve got loads of friends."

Get in touch with April & Together Co:

Together Co is Brighton and Hove’s loneliness charity. We create connections to change lives. 

Get support | Help fund our services | Volunteer 

Follow TogetherCo on Twitter | Instagram | Facebook 

Get in touch with Sal

If this episode has caught your attention and you wish to learn more, then please contact me. I offer a free 20 min call where we can discuss a challenge your facing and how I may be able to help you

Hello and welcome.

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Do you feel lonely and isolated sometimes?

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By strengthening your social

health, you can improve your

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physical and mental health too.

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Now this is a really, really important

topic, which I'm delighted to have

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April Baker from Together Co, which

is a loneliness charity, join me.

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Together is a specialist in this

field, does amazing work around

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people, social health and loneliness.

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And loneliness and isolation is something

that we all experience, whether we perhaps

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in a personal space, maybe you're a leader

or a founder, it's lonely at the time.

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Loneliness can touch anyone and

it can have profound effects.

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So I'm delighted to welcome April and

we're going to share with you a lot of

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thoughts and understanding and things

that you can do to deal if you're

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dealing with loneliness and isolation.

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April, welcome!

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April Baker: It's great to be here

and talking all things social health.

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excited.

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Sal Jefferies: Good

stuff, lovely to have you.

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In terms of definition, words

are powerful and sometimes words

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can be, interpreted differently.

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I'd like to talk to the three things of

isolation, loneliness, and social health.

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So what's your definition of isolation?

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April Baker: Yeah, so I think for

me, loneliness and isolation can be

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mixed together and used together where

people think it's the same thing.

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So isolation is objective

part of loneliness.

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So isolation is you are unable to

leave the house because of, let's

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say, a physical health condition,

or we have become isolated because

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of a pandemic and we're locked down.

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So we are isolated.

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So that's the objective part.

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Loneliness.

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Now that is subjective.

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That's something we feel and, and that's

got many layers to it and probably

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a lot more connotation and when you

pitch a loneliness for me, I picture

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older, older person, on their own

living on their own kind of, I always

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think when I'm thinking of loneliness,

Eleanor Rigby plays in my mind, that

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that song comes up was actually,

and I still think that even though I

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have been lonely as a young person.

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So loneliness, it's a feeling.

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And there's different forms of loneliness.

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So it's around a

disconnection from something.

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So it could be a

disconnection from yourself.

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So you just don't get yourself,

you don't know who you are.

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So it's quite existential in that regards.

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But also there's a

loneliness of not belonging.

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So you're not belonging to the

job that you go to every maybe

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the wider community and network.

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It's a real felt thing that One person

that has been a supporter of for many

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years and also used to access our

services beautifully described it,

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where they said, I feel homesick, but

I don't know where my home And that

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for me was like, yes, that is it.

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That is how you feel.

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It can be very stigmatizing.

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To admit I am lonely.

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And so that's the key differences for me.

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I would say you've got

isolation, loneliness.

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Someone can become lonely because

of their isolation, but you could be

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lonely in a room full of people and

look like you've got loads of friends,

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but you just don't feel connected.

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And so I think that's more what

people feel and go, what is this?

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Because I've got loads of friends and I'm

in this room with 400 people and I've got

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a thousand friends on my social media.

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Yeah.

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That's the loneliness that feels

different, I think people, feel, but

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they don't know what that is, and I

think more people need to understand,

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that's because you're a social being,

and something is not quite connected

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for you, that you need to, to find.

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Sal Jefferies: Lovely,

really eloquent and powerful.

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I really struck me your

descriptions there.

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Thank you.

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I know you work with us in depth and

what you said there about Being social

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beings, of course we are, we're hardwired,

humans are powerful as a social species.

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We're, we're quite fragile as a, as a,

as an animal compared to say, a lion

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or a tiger, those powerful number.

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We're very clever as a group and of

course we, we now dominate the earth.

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So we, we work as groups and

we work well as groups and

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we're hardwired for grouping.

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There's a whole lots of things

in the brain, such as mirror

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neurons, to have empathy.

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There's these things that

we very much know now.

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One thing that really struck me is that...

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That perhaps illusion that may be going on

for some people where you've got friends,

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a big social media following, you could

be successful in all these, what seem

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apparently, outwardly good, appearances.

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And yet on the inside, there may

be this loneliness, this sort of

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emptiness, this calling for home and

you don't know what's going on with me.

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And I have a lot of clients that

come in and try and figure out stuff.

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So they're very clever and try and

cognize and think through problems.

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And it's not a thinking problem,

it's a feeling problem as such, as

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an emotional issue or as a disconnect

and that really struck from when

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you said that and for, for, for our

listeners, I think if that lands for

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you, then it's, it's let's name this.

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It's one of the most

empowerful things, right?

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Naming what's going on.

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Then you can work with it.

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Wonderful social health.

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Now you and I have spoken about this.

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It's something that we're going to

go into, into some, some depth here.

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Please describe your

interpretation of social health.

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April Baker: bit of a journey has, has

happened with, TogetherCo, starting to

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talk more about social really going years.

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And if I first just start by saying that

loneliness can be the negative aspect

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of it so you don't feel like you belong.

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So there's loneliness and people

talk about an For us, we're trying

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to recognise that human beings have

different parts and all those parts

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need to be working well, which will

equate to being and us to thrive.

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So we want to work at what's right

with us and normalise this feeling.

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social health.

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is about your relationships.

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So your network of relationships,

the importance of relationships and

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connections, like I was saying before,

your social health with your close five.

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And then, which might be, you have

three or four very close networks.

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You then may have your local

community, friends, and it's,

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what's that looking like?

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And we have to put social health

into the conversations alongside

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physical health and mental health.

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So we've got physical.

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Health.

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We talk a lot about that.

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We are now talking much more about

our mental health, have social

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We are social beings and those

three combined equals well being.

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Don't miss the social health.

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I think it's the missing part And I think

now more than ever from the pandemic

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that we've all been through collectively

together, this must start being spoken

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about more because through many studies,

what is shown about The key to the good

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life is It's your So that's where we're

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Sal Jefferies: Thank you.

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Yes, really, again, eloquent,

lovely, very succinct.

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and as you know, for my regular listeners,

that my entire philosophy is based

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on an ecosystem of the individual,

how our mind works, our emotional

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mind or body and our physical body.

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And if we only attend to one, we're

missing out on, on the, on the other.

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So you might exercise a lot, but may

not deal with your emotional challenges.

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You may go to a psychotherapist or a coach

and do your mind stuff but if you're not

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moving, and you're getting your body in

a good place, you're missing out on how

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the whole system works as an ecosystem.

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But of course, we are a

system within a system.

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No person works alone.

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It doesn't work like that.

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And we know that.

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We've got family.

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It's just how it actually is.

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It's basic science, right?

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And of course, it's very easy in

our atomized, particularly our

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western culture, our very modern

life that, We are individuals.

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The individual is highly prized.

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it's a big thing and it's a great thing.

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But if it's highly prized at the extent

of I am separate from the other, it's

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this disconnection, this sort of sneaky

problem I see in coming up on one guy or

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another and disconnection is a problem.

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And as you've alluded to,

social health is, it's, it's,

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it's blooming obvious, right?

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It's really obvious.

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It's nice to have some friends.

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It's nice to get on with your family.

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It's good to have some co workers.

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And it's tough when you

either don't get on with those

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people, or you don't have them.

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yeah.

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And I think when we term something

as social health, and then

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add to it, okay, we need this.

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It's not a nice thing.

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Just, keep working your 50 hour

week and, no, we work as a system.

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We're a system within a system.

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How can that work well?

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So that's beautiful.

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April, I'd love to learn a little bit

more about how you got into the field of

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working with social health and loneliness.

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And how did, how did this come to you?

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What, what brought you into

this space in the world?

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April Baker: I think there's

that led me to where I am.

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where I'm, as you can probably

tell, very passionate about talking

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about loneliness and social health.

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The first thing for me is I was raised as

an So I grew up with, mum, dad and myself.

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And from that I had a fascination with

larger families and groups of people.

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And actually, one of my earliest memories

is as a little girl, I used to, so we

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had a Victorian house and I used to,

all the gardens were interconnected

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and I used to cycle up and down the

gardens of these little Victorian houses.

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And there was a few older people up.

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on that road that lived on their own.

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And I used to go in and have a cup of

tea and then try to invite them back.

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So there was something from a very little

girl going, why are they on their own?

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No one should be on their own.

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And my mum is from Ireland.

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She's from Cork.

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My mum is one of 14.

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So I went through, going from

England, me, mum, dad, my family

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around us to Ireland, massive family.

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And so there was this fascination.

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What's going on?

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What's going on?

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Then I went to work in, different

areas within the charity sector.

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So I previously ran services,

including hostels for people

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experiencing homelessness.

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I also ran care homes for people

with mental, health issues.

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And from all of the services

I've ever managed or worked in,

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people just wanted to belong.

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So we'd na we would also

label people homeless.

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mental health.

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They're just people and

they want to belong.

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And some of the most powerful ways that

they got better was through feeling like

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they were connected to something more

than their condition or their experience.

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So that I think started this

journey for me and this interest.

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Then I previously studied

psychology and I'm now studying a

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master's in positive psychology.

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So I got this fascination

with what's right with us.

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How do we thrive?

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what makes us well.

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And every single model that you look at

in well being, in positive psychology, one

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aspect of it is relationships, connection.

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All of this combined made me

realise the importance of what I

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now have said is social health, but

of connection, of social beings.

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And then, as I came to this realisation,

this role came up at TogetherCo, and

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suddenly I found This charity in Brighton

and Hove that for 20, over 20 years

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has been doing exactly that, has been

waving the flag saying people need

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each other, we need to bring people

together, please don't forget that.

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And I was lucky enough to

become their CEO a year ago.

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So I think it's all been

building towards this.

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Sal Jefferies: Wow.

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Wow.

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And so interesting to hear that

as a single child, my niece,

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she's a single child and of

course I grew up with a sister.

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So when you look at these differences

and see what it's like, yeah, these

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things do influence us, our experience.

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It's very, very striking what you

said there about, not the label,

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not the homeless person, but the

condition it's, it, we get caught

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up in labels and, we use labels.

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It's how we make sense of the world.

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I think the problem we have with

labels in today's culture is that we,

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we are over labeled and we use things

like, people say to me, I've got

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anxiety or I've got this, got that.

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And while there is some truth in it, I

think the problem I have with labels is

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that we have to be careful that it doesn't

become a prison that we're stuck in.

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And it's One of the reasons I call

it out is because our brain is

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a predictive processing machine.

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some would say.

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Andy Clark of the Professor of

Cognitive Philosophy at Sussex

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would say in his amazing book.

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And if our mind is a prediction

machine and we're thinking we are,

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I'm a homeless person, I'm a lonely

person, people don't love me.

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We've, this, this Bias is our

behaviour and this is the work I do

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with psychologists to go into the

mind and look at what are our biases?

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How do we label ourselves?

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Because actually some of that can

predicate actions and behaviour

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which might lead to loneliness

or might lead to isolation.

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So it's a really important thing about

from the outside and from the inside,

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watching these descriptions, watching

these identity types and labels and

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being careful not to be trapped by them.

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and at the same time using them

for good measure to understand.

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So it needs this, both and approach I

find, which is really, really important.

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Now being alone, I've worked for myself

for a long time and I'm generally,

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to use a label, I'm, I'm an introvert

or I have an introverted nature.

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Most of the time will be accurate, right?

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So I love being around people,

but I can only do so much.

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And then I come back to

my space and re, regroup.

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I was curious because I never was

like this before the pandemic.

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literally I have changed

in quite a lot of ways.

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I don't know, various things

to do with the pandemic.

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I, I was, I had COVID very badly.

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I was out for a month and literally

nearly wiped me out, which is surprising

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because I'm generally quite fit and

and it just absolutely knocked me.

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But for whatever reason, this is

how I am now and, and I'm okay with

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it and I understand what I need.

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But the pandemic was a destroyer for

some people, some people I know, older

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people, they were going out, let's

say a little bit of shopping, catching

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up with some friends here and there.

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Soon as that was taken away,

their mobility went right down,

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their movement went right down,

their health often collapsed.

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And it's so sad, certainly for an

older generation who have to move.

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And, and I see lots of problems

that have come out of the pandemic.

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What if, what's your experience,

certainly with the work that you're

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doing, both professionally, personally,

since the pandemic, what's this, what

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has changed for us around how we act and

how loneliness and isolation has, has

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perhaps it's pulled us in, hasn't it?

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we were imprisoned many ways, locked

in, I would actually say it's locked up.

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it felt like that to me.

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I'd be, I was told I could not do stuff,

which is an imprisonment of sorts.

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And of course we've come out of

it, but there's a collective.

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Trauma, or there's a collective

echo of this still going around.

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Tell me more from your side.

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What are you seeing with this?

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April Baker: agree

around collective trauma.

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And I think for so many people it

depends on how they entered the pandemic.

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Did they become unwell?

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for instance, with the earlier cases of

COVID, and I'm really sorry to hear how

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unwell you were as well with that, and

then what is our opportunity coming out?

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So what we have experienced at

TogetherCo is a much higher level of,

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anxiety and agoraphobia as the reasons

people are being referred to us.

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So people that have, and I can

just say in terms of even my own

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friendship groups actually, people

that have never experienced anxiety.

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what that feels like, or being

fearful to go out and about.

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Suddenly have experienced that

because we got told stay in.

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It's very, very hard to go back out.

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So that's the first thing I

would say we're experiencing.

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The other thing to say is that before

we went into the, lockdowns, there was

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already people that were very isolated and

very lonely and now they are chronically.

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isolated and lonely because, as you

were saying, that one person that

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would come once a week to take them

out was that one bit of movement, that

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one, and actually, if we do not have

that, we decline very, very quickly.

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The thing I haven't mentioned around

loneliness is a really powerful piece of

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research has shown that loneliness is as

bad for us as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

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It really is a killer.

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if people don't get that

once a week contact.

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Sometimes it might have

only been once a month.

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Someone who actually physically

comes, sees that person and takes

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them out, the decline is significant.

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So actually, people that were lonely

becoming chronically lonely as well.

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And then I think there's some

that, what I've noticed is They're

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trying to now be really busy

again and not coping with that.

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So they're like, oh my gosh I've lost

two years of my life and I've got to

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hurry up So we've come back out and

we had a slower pace and now we're

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trying to be as busy as we once were or

more Busy and so you hear how are you?

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I'm really busy I'm tired, I have to

book to see some of my friends five

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months in advance and that's too

much and then people are Needing,

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oh, there's something wrong with me

and I need to go and talk to someone.

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It's like we're just going too

fast back out of it because

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we're like, hurry up, hurry up.

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Because I think there's that fear

of, okay, this could happen again.

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we could be locked down again.

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I could, have my time limited again.

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So I think it really depends on

what came into the pandemic, what

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your situation was in the pandemic,

and how you're coming out of it.

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And I also don't think for the next few

years we are going to realize or see.

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The impact until we start seeing

the younger generations growing up.

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And a another sort of piece of

information that I have on that is

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I've been speaking to a university and

they were having retention issues with

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students staying, and those students.

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didn't have 15, 16, 17, going out and

about knowing their own boundaries.

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And suddenly they've come out

of the pandemic, go straight to

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halls of residence at university.

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And they're asking some of the site

managers, Oh, is it okay if I go out?

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Can I do that?

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They don't actually know because they

didn't have those really formative

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years kind of learn those things and

go through GCSEs and school together.

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And I don't even, if you then think of all

the years prior to that, the generations,

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so there is going to be some impact, there

is going to be some impact, definitely.

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And that's why, even more so, I'm

saying social health, because also,

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it's learning how to be a social being.

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And for some people, that they may need

to learn how to do that, and some of,

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some people, are different to others

in terms of maybe neurodiversity.

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So you've got to learn to find your

tribe, but know that you belong somewhere.

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Everyone belongs somewhere, but we've

got to do more and be more aware now that

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that's going to be an issue longer term.

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Social media is not the solution as well.

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That's not real connection.

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So that, that's what I would say

in terms of what we're seeing and

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what I've experienced as well.

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Sal Jefferies: that's really interesting.

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Some of the clients I have seen since

the pandemic definitely have shown

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that the magnification, or let's call

it the amplification, of what's going

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on for them, whether it's heightened

anxiety, overly, I work with a lot

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of people who are highly responsive.

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We used to use the word highly

sensitive, and I used to use that

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term myself, but I think a more

accurate term without the labels,

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certainly as a man of my generation,

sensitive and shame go together.

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guys who are listening

who are 40 plus, right?

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Sensitive is normal, but actually

from a neurological point of

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view, we are highly responsive.

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we're very, very aware of feelings and

thoughts and all sorts of activities.

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We have extra reception,

which is awareness of what's

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around us, inter reception.

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What's happening in your body and

the higher responsiveness you have

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with that is the more you feel,

which put a pandemic in, put a world

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changing, threat of, imminent danger.

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You're just going to amp that up.

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And a lot of people come from, certainly

to my space with a lot of this sort

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of amplification of their patterns.

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and thankfully they come to

do the work and change them.

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So that's a good thing.

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But yes, I think for, for those who's

listening, if you've come out of this and

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you haven't looked at what's happened.

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Questions, as you said,

April, how did you go in?

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What did you go in with?

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Because that might have got

amplified and it may need some work.

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It might be work with family, it

might be work with a therapist.

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It might need simply

naming and writing it down.

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ah, this is what's going on for me.

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Because the naming and understanding

is part of the solution always.

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Now I'd like to speak to the, the issue of

social media and the issue of connection.

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Now, I'm, I'm of a generation

where computers came in roughly

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when I was, I don't know what,

teenage, something like that.

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So I'm really old, although I'm going to

live for a long time because of the way I

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live, but, today's world is, is predicated

and built on social media and connections.

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And it's great.

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I love my phone.

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I love all the tech that gives

us lots of opportunities.

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I think the issue that we have is,

is that if we are a lonely person

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and it's not comfortable to be in a

group, hence if I'm out, out for a

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drink or out for some food, If a group

of people, two people at a table, and

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someone goes to use the bathroom, the

other person can't not use their phone.

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If that's you, then, we all

do it to some degree . And I

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find it absolutely fascinating.

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We just knee jerk towards that addiction.

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like a smoker reaches for the cigarette.

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It's exactly the same.

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Addiction's addiction.

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And it needs to be named.

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But as you rightly said, there

can be this, let's say, veneer of

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connection, which could be, thousands

of Facebook friends or whatever.

400

When actually human contact now is,

is probably less and absolutely more

401

required and more needed to solve this

challenge of like, I feel alone or I

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feel lonely, And I think there's an

easy out to use a phone or piece of tech

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to go, Oh, on WhatsApp or on TikTok or

whatever it is that you're playing with.

404

Rather than meet that, probably

that existential angst, which

405

is, I feel really uncomfortable.

406

Yeah, and I think it needs naming, and

I'm a big fan of naming stuff, because

407

once we name it, it's not a shame.

408

But if you're feeling massively

uncomfortable, in my experience,

409

that feeling of loneliness is a tell.

410

all emotions have a reason.

411

It's a tell that, yes, you're

disconnected, or you need

412

to reconnect with somebody.

413

And I think that's a really important

thing for those of us who are a little

414

more biased towards tech for connection.

415

than we are going out for a coffee

with a friend or, talking to a

416

colleague and maybe, going out

for some food or, or going to some

417

sport together, something like that.

418

What are you doing with your, certainly

with your work and with TogetherCode

419

to, to address that very challenge?

420

April Baker: So I think for me, what

I wanted to start with, as well as

421

I will come to what we are looking

and seeing at with TogetherCo,

422

is something I haven't mentioned

yet, is my own loneliness journey.

423

So I was in my 20s.

424

Living in London, and I'd moved up there

for work, with a relationship that broke

425

down within the first year, going to work

every day, trying to, climb up the career

426

ladder, also during that time I'd had a

bereavement, so one of my close friends

427

had sadly died, so there was a lot going

on, but what I didn't realise, which

428

I know now, and I wish I'd known, was

actually the main thing that was going on

429

for me, was, disconnection from people.

430

So what you were saying about, if you

looked at my Facebook, because that's

431

what I used back then, because it's my

Facebook at the time for TikTok, I looked

432

like I was having the time of my life.

433

I had.

434

Loads of friends and, you know, atting

people and going to these parties

435

and, Oh look, I've just been promoted.

436

But actually, I was living in a part of

London where I, I didn't know anybody.

437

Up my road, I didn't know my

neighbours, I didn't know the

438

people I was house sharing with.

439

I had to travel across London

to see anyone at a weekend.

440

I remember some weekends

where I had no plans.

441

where I would literally go and

get my nails done or my hair done.

442

And again, that's a privileged position.

443

I could do that, so I'm very

mindful of my privilege within that.

444

But that was just to connect,

to have a conversation.

445

And for me, it took the realisation,

I'll never forget the moment, I was

446

on a train back from Dorset where

my family lived after Christmas.

447

And I was going back to London,

going to, go back to work,

448

go back to the shared living.

449

And I said, enough's enough.

450

And actually, what I had to

do is go What's going on?

451

And I really had to look inside

myself to be like, What am I missing?

452

And that's why I said, What am I missing?

453

What am I missing?

454

Because all the lead up to that was,

I'd been diagnosed with depression.

455

I had been diagnosed with, panic disorder.

456

I was going to therapy, but there was

something else that was not working.

457

The biggest thing that wasn't

working was where I was living

458

and not knowing anybody.

459

That started my journey back to Sussex.

460

And back to Brighton, because I also

realised through that journalling,

461

which was really powerful for

me during that time, I realised

462

the sea was really important.

463

So some people might find woods or

parks, the sea is really important.

464

I grew up in Dorset,

it was very important.

465

And also Brighton was where I

had the most amount of friends

466

in one place, which wasn't a lot.

467

I think it was four, four people.

468

so I was like, they're where

most of my friends are.

469

It's by the sea.

470

I know, I know some of the area and so

I made the move and I think for me, the

471

reason I'm sharing that is to say, like,

all of what's shown on social media and

472

what we do on social media absolutely can

be beneficial, during that time, I got

473

to message people and, and, Thank you.

474

connect with someone that I once

spoke to when I lived in Australia and

475

things like that, but it was not the

same as being physically in a place.

476

like actually on your street or in your

town, city, village, knowing people.

477

And that is really, really important.

478

And that is something like,

there is a lot of things that

479

social media can be good for.

480

So you can, through social media,

find your tribe of a particular

481

condition you might be suffering.

482

So for me, I got to join

a forum about anxiety.

483

Brilliant.

484

But it's not going to replace

that connection of an actual

485

person being in front of you.

486

And like I said, it doesn't

have to be best friends.

487

It can be going to the corner

shop and knowing Joe, who runs the

488

corner shop and having a chat every

day, going, to the coffee shop.

489

And that's another thing that we're

losing less and less of is those.

490

places of connection in

our town, cities, villages.

491

So recently, I'll give you an example.

492

They are looking to close ticket

stations at train stations.

493

Big concern for me.

494

And so when I bring into what we do at

TogetherCo, so TogetherCo has spoken

495

about that and said, hang on a minute.

496

Firstly, people need to connect

and a lot of people going to the

497

train station need a conversation.

498

And secondly, their reason

for it was modernization.

499

Surely modernisation in this world is

actually being inclusive of people,

500

and I was reading about the RNIB did

a survey for people who are partially

501

or blind, and only 3 percent of people

surveyed from that community would

502

feel comfortable using a machine.

503

actually, this isn't modernisation at all.

504

For me, this is choosing

convenience over connection.

505

And that is something bringing

TogetherCo back into it.

506

TogetherCo is trying to say,

Look, let's not do convenience

507

and cost cutting over connection.

508

Because those small moments of

connection, it doesn't have to be big.

509

And that's why I don't want people

to feel like, Oh, but I still don't

510

have any, that I don't know people.

511

It doesn't matter.

512

Go and just have a conversation,

in your local shop.

513

Go and have a coffee and get

to know the coffee owners.

514

Those few moments of connection,

it's been proven biologically.

515

Help us every day with

our positive emotion.

516

that's what, so we're

campaigning it together, Co.

517

But also there's a real personal message

from me that I wanted to share at

518

this point to say I have felt lonely.

519

It did cause my mental breakdown.

520

It was caused by my loneliness.

521

My social health impacted

my mental health.

522

Sal Jefferies: thank you.

523

That's a very powerful story

and I'm very touched by it.

524

So thank you for sharing and obviously

sorry for the loss of your friend.

525

Isn't it interesting, the labelling, and

whilst the conditions you may have had

526

at that time, I call them expressions,

we call them conditions if you're

527

medical, but depression, panic disorder.

528

I think if we don't look at the

environment, like you've already

529

alluded to, like the social health

environment, we don't look at

530

what's the bigger picture here?

531

What's going on?

532

And I would actually also say

the better question, certainly a

533

question I drop in my coaching a

lot, is like, what is not going on?

534

Because we often look at what we're

doing, but what are we not doing?

535

I haven't gone to the shop

this week, or, I know, I know a

536

client and they work in, tech.

537

and they spend a lot of time

with them, tech is what they do.

538

And they don't go out much.

539

I'm like, what do you mean

you haven't been out today?

540

What do you mean?

541

I've been out like eight times,

I've done seven miles already.

542

And they're like, oh no, I didn't go out.

543

I'm like, wow.

544

And of course, that's, that's not healthy.

545

Humans are wired to connect.

546

And sometimes it, the, what am I not

doing question is really powerful.

547

Cause if you are having the experience

of depression or you're pulling back, or

548

there's a lot of panic or anxiety, there's

a reason why your nervous system, your

549

brain body system is expressing that way.

550

There's a reason for it.

551

It's not wrong.

552

For some people, it's a,

a maladaptive condition.

553

And there are other elements to it.

554

But if we don't ask what is going

on in the bigger picture, certainly

555

with connections we're speaking to

now, then we're really missing the, I

556

think, the message in those situations.

557

And, yeah, amazing.

558

Thank you for sharing that.

559

That was really powerful.

560

And I too heard about that

shutting down of ticket offices.

561

And, yeah, the word

modernisation, it's very careful.

562

That doesn't mean it's better.

563

oh, it's modernising.

564

It's yeah, the modern world.

565

It doesn't mean it's a better world.

566

And, us...

567

Are rates of anxiety

and depression going up?

568

Are suicide rates going up?

569

Hmm.

570

Are we having issues with the

economy and the environment?

571

we know the answer to these questions.

572

They're pretty bleak.

573

And there's a reason for this.

574

Now, we can't solve all

the problems in one go.

575

But if one of the issues are

disconnection from other people,

576

the answer is quite simple.

577

Not necessarily easy, but simple.

578

It's reconnect with other And let's

look at how that might happen.

579

I want to speak to...

580

So some of my audience are...

581

like you said to, earlier in our, in

our conversation, they're surrounded

582

by lots of people and they have people

in their lives and they're busy and

583

probably successful to some degree and

yet have that gnawing feeling, that

584

feeling if you're in, you're on your own

for a minute in the shower or there's

585

something missing, there's something

wrong with me and I coach a lot of people

586

who do really well in many aspects,

but existentially there's a hole,

587

there's a problem and we go to that.

588

We're like, what is that?

589

And as you've already alluded to,

that if loneliness is, you're at

590

the top, you're, hey, look, you're a

CEO of your company, but it's lonely

591

at the top for a lot of people.

592

A lot of people don't challenge that.

593

And there's also a facade.

594

If you're a CEO or

founder, there's a facade.

595

People don't get to see the

real you, perhaps, because

596

that's just not how it works.

597

And I noticed that that's a.

598

Pernicious, slightly more subtle way

of people being lonely or isolated, and

599

yet they're in a busy room and they're

in a busy life, and yet they're empty.

600

And, and that's a really interesting one.

601

How would you speak to that person?

602

What might they be doing to change

their experience of loneliness, even

603

though they have physical people around?

604

What would you say in your, your

professional experience, what can they do?

605

April Baker: I think that's

such an important point you've

606

raised because often people get

alone, confused with loneliness.

607

And actually some people are alone.

608

And solitude is actually something

very positive and be, can be really an

609

amazing space to connect with yourself.

610

But then you'll have individuals

that are in this room ha look on

611

paper like they've got great social

health, but they just don't feel that.

612

And I think for me, the key.

613

message, and I can only speak really

of my own experience, as you said, of

614

being a CEO or being a senior leader

for many years, somebody who has

615

themselves struggled significantly with

loneliness, it has been, for me, about

616

meaning, what gives meaning to my life?

617

What is it that makes buzz?

618

What gives me flow?

619

What is it that I just love doing and

having that filtered out in parts of

620

your week so that you can come back to

that because a key point for me is when

621

I am going to these big events and, when

I am CEO at work, accountable to the

622

staff that I serve, accountable to the

board that I serve, sometimes I feel

623

like I've had to armor up or I feel

that there has to be a few shades of me.

624

And then you, you can move

away from your authentic self.

625

So we need ways, and I, and I really

recommend coaching, and speaking to

626

someone on this as well, we need ways

to come back to who we are, what gives

627

us meaning, so we're not the Fifty

Shades, maybe we're three shades of

628

ourselves, but we know who we are.

629

So I think that's what I've had

to think, how can I bring...

630

me to my work as much as possible.

631

So firstly, becoming a CEO

was never important to me.

632

The loneliness mission was.

633

So that's, because I'm, I'm

working for a cause I just

634

believe in, it's really helped my

wellbeing in many different ways.

635

also knowing, and it's very

interesting, you spoke about,

636

being introverted, knowing.

637

that it's okay to be an introverted

leader because I didn't know that.

638

I thought, you look at all leaders and

it's extroverted and I should love this.

639

I should love all these networking.

640

And I don't, I do it and I do it for

the cause because I'm passionate for

641

the cause, but I have to the next day

have a day free with no socializing.

642

So I do things a lot more like I go

to the cinema on my own quite a lot.

643

I go for walks on my own.

644

I go to the sea on my own because

I know that's where I find some I

645

also know what's important to me.

646

But I've, I've done work.

647

I've, I've always had a mentor,

that's important to say, and a coach.

648

And I believe so much in the power

of someone standing next to you,

649

holding that mirror and, and being

able to talk back to you, but that

650

you don't have to on your own.

651

You really, really don't.

652

So I think if you're feeling

like that, It's okay.

653

You need to find a way, whether that's

through journaling, whether that's

654

through coaching, whether that's

through, you can do some great strength,

655

free strength finders to look at

what your strengths are, values and

656

action, the VIA surveys, brilliant.

657

Oh, that's what I love.

658

I know I love learning.

659

So I'm always going to want to

be in a role that's learning.

660

Try and look at who, you have strengths.

661

Everyone has gifts and strengths.

662

Find those, find that part of you.

663

Thank you.

664

And that's what's going to bring you back

to yourselves in moments that sometimes

665

we have to perform or have to bring a

certain different self to a role, but you

666

don't want to be out in that all the time.

667

And I think for me in my loneliness,

when it was really bad and I may become

668

lonely again in life, but when it was

really bad, it's because I felt like I

669

was dipping into everyone else's life.

670

I feel I was performing at work

and I was like, where's April?

671

Who is April?

672

So that's for me what I feel.

673

Sal Jefferies: the term I use when I've

had that experience to some degree, not as

674

much as you, but it's I've lost my centre.

675

I've lost the centre of who I am

and, we, we are chameleon esque.

676

Humans are very good at chameleon

esque people and leaders and people

677

in their businesses are good.

678

It's great to be a salesperson, perhaps

the ambassador, maybe it's the front

679

of house, whatever it is you do.

680

And, and this sort of flexibility

itself is utterly natural.

681

And I think it's a great skill

set we should all master.

682

not at the expense of losing your centre.

683

It's like if you're not anchored to a

centre point of who you are at your core,

684

then we start to, we slip into patterns.

685

People know people

pleasing, imposter syndrome.

686

They're all built on very shaky

egos or very fragile egos, which

687

are actually not really egos.

688

They're conceptual egos, which

is a lot of work I do is to

689

break that ego, not healthily.

690

And let the real ego come

out, the real self come out.

691

It's, it's deep.

692

it reminds me of the old.

693

quote, or the existential

theory around bad faith.

694

If, I like a bit of existentialism.

695

Yeah.

696

And I've, as from positive psychology,

I trained with, one of the guys

697

who used to lead the course there.

698

brilliant guy.

699

we talk about bad faith in the

existential, that the example

700

is this, it's a very old one.

701

If there was a waiter, being all

gregarious and lovely and serving the,

702

serving the coffees and teas, and they

went home, was all miserable and downbeat.

703

They, they would call that as bad faith.

704

We might call it, in

modern terms, disingenuous.

705

I think there's something really important

about not losing your core centre,

706

even if you're a leader, whatever you

have to do, because if you've still

707

got those attributes, those qualities,

those strengths, they shine through.

708

How you apply those strengths is skill.

709

So if you are, passionate about what

you do, honest, trustworthy, don't take,

710

don't take any rubbish from people.

711

That can be your way of being, how you

deploy it can be skillful and elegant,

712

but if you start to not meet those honest,

authentic parts of you, I think that

713

starts to become in some ways an isolation

from our inner self and Little steep

714

into there's internal family systems.

715

There's a psychological principle model.

716

You might Psychosynthesis sort of

deals with this . We talk a lot about

717

the, the internal family, the parts

of ourselves, and, and when you do

718

the inner works, sometimes we have an

isolated part and those who've been

719

through therapy, you might know this,

those who, if you haven't had al therapy,

720

we often have a part of us, which we

don't like, or we've closed it down.

721

It could, it could be the Revel, it

could be the kid, it could either it's

722

one of these parts or it got shamed,

certainly in the male domain, which I

723

can speak to with my own experience.

724

is that part got shamed.

725

So that's not okay to

be that version of you.

726

You have to be, certainly the nonsense

I was growing up in, strong, masculine,

727

I'm a really sensitive individual.

728

I was like, no, that's

not going to cut it.

729

You have to be strong and tough and hard.

730

And, and, and so part of that softer,

gentle part of me got closed down for many

731

years until I did the work to let that

part be seen and also brought back in.

732

So that internal isolation and

loneliness can happen as well.

733

It's a more of a...

734

Deeper level of working, but I think

it's worth naming because it can be going

735

on for many people and that internal

It's like there's something wrong.

736

There's a dissonance within It needs

looking at because actually it's it's

737

an expression what often happens on the

outside That we April social health.

738

Let's let's get let's get practical

now Let's we've got our listeners

739

have lots and lots of understanding

and knowledge What are the pillars,

740

what are the pieces of social health?

741

So if someone's thinking, yeah,

you know what, this is exactly the

742

stuff I need to attend to right

now, that's what's going on for me.

743

What are the key things in social

health can we flag up and go,

744

these are the pieces that make it.

745

What would you say?

746

April Baker: So the first thing is

with social health is relationships.

747

So what I would suggest is looking at

your current relationships with people.

748

So I don't know if people are

aware of, Dunbar's rule of the 150.

749

people, which is actually shown through

anthropology that that's our limit.

750

Actually, the hundreds of thousands of

followers, it's not going to happen.

751

So firstly, it's okay to only

have a few people in your life.

752

Maximum of people you can actually

connect with, they say, is about 150.

753

But what's key is, think about those

individuals that are important to

754

you in your life, that when you're

with them, they give you energy.

755

Note those individuals down.

756

Think about those people that

you like an activity with.

757

You go and do an activity.

758

Note those people down and think

about how much time you're spending

759

with those individuals or how much

timing instead of spending with those

760

individuals, you're scrolling on your

phone or you're working overtime.

761

So I would just do a bit of a summary of.

762

These are the people that give me energy.

763

It could be one or two as well.

764

And it may be at this moment you're

not sure, which then that's telling

765

you I want to find those people.

766

That's okay as well.

767

You can start to find these people.

768

So you want to build up a network of

people that you know in your hardest

769

moments you would be wanting to call on.

770

And that takes time, I've got to say as

well, but just key is people that like

771

what you like, and you're going to go

and do stuff together, like one of my

772

friends, when they moved to Brighton, they

didn't know many people, they knew myself,

773

they didn't know many people, they loved

volleyball, so they joined volleyball,

774

they've now got a massive network of

friendships, and it's fantastic, and

775

friends are meeting friends, so that's

the first thing, I would say, is do that,

776

start building that up, and just in your

week, just like we do with mental health,

777

where we go, I'm going to do mindfulness,

Physical health, I'm going to go to

778

the gym, social health, I'm going to

see Joe because Joe and me have a great

779

giggle and I've had a really tough week

and I'm going to commit, I'm not going

780

to work late, so you add that bit in.

781

The other thing I would say is

don't overlook kindness and giving.

782

So every day you have an opportunity

to increase your well being by

783

doing really small acts of kindness

throughout the day, giving to others.

784

So that could be, get off your

phone, look up on the bus and smile

785

at the person in front of you.

786

You see someone struggling with their

shopping and they live three doors down,

787

pick up that shopping, carry it for them.

788

I promise you, that will help

you just as much, if not more

789

than the person you're helping.

790

You can take that help further as well.

791

And actually, things like volunteering,

and I know I'm obviously going to speak

792

about this because of being charity

CEO, but I cannot tell you the amount of

793

corporates that bring their teams to our

social events and the teams afterwards say

794

it's one of the most amazing experiences

they've had because they get to give

795

back to their local community, they

get to have conversations with people

796

they never usually get to meet, and so

volunteering really is an incredible

797

way to help your own well being.

798

It doesn't have to be massive.

799

It doesn't have to be long term.

800

It could be, okay, I'm going

to go and do this fundraiser.

801

I'm going to go and do one

event for this charity.

802

Think about a cause.

803

We talked about meaning.

804

What gives you meaning?

805

What has helped you in your life?

806

So obviously, as you can tell, for

me, loneliness is important for me.

807

for my, Dad, um, his sister, got early

onset dementia, so he does a lot of

808

work supporting, dementia research.

809

the real, there will be, that will give

you meaning, because it's something that's

810

important to you, but also, you're giving.

811

And, thinking about this the other

day, actually, I took a picture

812

in a, a local bookshop I went

into for the self help section.

813

Massive self help section.

814

And I was like, one day,

wouldn't it be amazing that

815

there's a help others section?

816

Because, and you spoke about this really

well earlier, Sal, about the individual

817

being prioritised, which obviously is

important, but actually, helping your

818

community, helping one another, needs to

be equally prioritised, because that's

819

what's going to help you feel Thank you.

820

more grounded, more connected, that's

going to help you recognise what you love.

821

But also those daily acts of

kindness, just like your daily acts

822

of gratitude, really are powerful.

823

They increase your positive emotion.

824

They're just as powerful as

going for a run, in the gym,

825

which is really equally as good.

826

But we must start thinking of

these other social aspects as well.

827

Sal Jefferies: Really, really nice.

828

Absolutely amazing.

829

We're going to capture those and put those

points in the show notes for everyone.

830

amazing.

831

what struck me when you said there

about, yes, we're individuals,

832

that's what I coach with.

833

Here's the thing, we're also the other.

834

I'm the other to you, or to a

person who passes me on the bus, or

835

on the street, or whatever it is.

836

So we're actually the other anyway.

837

We forget that.

838

We are the other, as

well as the individual.

839

So when we realise that, we

realise that, actually we're both.

840

And I think that...

841

Hopefully you can break down

the barriers a little bit, the

842

psychological barriers about oh,

should I do this, should I do this?

843

No, you're the other.

844

It's okay, because what if someone helped

you if you, I don't know, had a shoulder

845

injury and you couldn't carry your bag?

846

Someone said, oh, do you want a hand?

847

Oh, thanks, lovely.

848

amazing.

849

Really, really cool.

850

Last, I really want to just capture

some clear things on what Together

851

Code do, because it's really important.

852

You've got some great programming,

and it also will help encapsulate

853

for everyone listening, what's...

854

You do as a profession,

what you know works.

855

What, tell me a little bit, just

a little, the pricey of your, you

856

guys, what you do in your programs.

857

April Baker: Fantastic.

858

Yes.

859

So Together Co, as we spoke

about, it's a loneliness charity

860

based in Brighton and Hove.

861

So it's all about developing

your social health.

862

We have two main programs.

863

The first one is social prescribing.

864

And this is something really important

just to touch on actually, is National,

865

program and you can go to your GP or you

might find us in job centers and basically

866

it's a professional called a link worker

that will help you around ways to connect.

867

So it might be connecting with some

financial advice or housing advice,

868

but also it might be ways you want

to connect in your local community.

869

You might be a newcomer to the city.

870

So we oversee social prescribing.

871

So wherever you live in the UK,

you can look up social prescribing

872

and also you can go to your GP

and talk about that as well.

873

The other part is befriending.

874

And so I talk about with volunteers.

875

So we match people across the city

in neighbourhoods to become friends.

876

And I cannot tell you the

amount of beautiful stories of.

877

people needing people and that people

are just wanting to be together.

878

But also, if it wasn't for TogetherCo,

which has been going for 20 years,

879

way before, I came on board, those

friendships wouldn't have happened.

880

And some of those

friendships last a lifetime.

881

And because of that, people at the end,

so dying well is as important as living

882

well, people have a friend at the end.

883

And if TogetherCo hadn't matched

them, they wouldn't have had anybody.

884

this is powerful.

885

everybody deserves somebody.

886

We come, we don't come into

this world fully alone.

887

Our wonderful mothers bring us

into this world and we shouldn't

888

go out on our own as well.

889

And then sadly, People do.

890

So that's something very, very important

to us and something we've been delivering,

891

like I said, for many, many years.

892

But we need more volunteers

and we also just have a whole

893

range of volunteer programs.

894

So anyone that wants to get

involved, we don't say no.

895

We say, come on board, what's your skills?

896

How do you wanna get involved?

897

Because then they build up networks.

898

'cause we have volunteer events,

so they become friends as well.

899

So that's a range of,

of what we do, locally.

900

There is other, so if anyone's.

901

thinking, wow, okay, but

I don't live in Sussex.

902

There's lots of other fantastic

loneliness charities across the uk.

903

You've got the Joe Cox Foundation

in London, you've got the

904

Marmalade Trust in Bristol.

905

so there's lots of others as well.

906

Age, UKs across the country do a lot

of, uh, working with older people.

907

But what I would just wanna

stress as well, that loneliness

908

is not an older person It affects.

909

All of us have many points of our lives.

910

Young people are really

affected by it right now.

911

There's a brilliant co op foundation

program called Lonely Not Alone.

912

Really, if you've got, children, I

recommend going and just being mindful

913

of that and what that might be happening

for your children around loneliness.

914

It can affect people who

are newcomers to cities.

915

It's affecting men that we've

talked, you've spoken about with,

916

the connection and being able to

reach out sadly high suicide rates.

917

New mothers.

918

Seriously affected as well.

919

So it isn't just, Oh,

it's an old person thing.

920

I don't need to worry about it.

921

Actually, it can affect us all.

922

Like I've spoken about, it affected me

in my early twenties and it may do again.

923

So lots of options.

924

I hope that explained quite

well a range of what we do, but

925

also I'm just very passionate.

926

Wherever you are, go and have a research

about ways you can connect locally

927

as well.

928

Sal Jefferies: Brilliant, thank you

for sharing and we will of course

929

put your show note, in the show

notes, details to, to learn more,

930

to, to see it together, code, all

the programs that will go in there.

931

yeah, I'm really struck, because

we, we, we, we had a, an initial

932

conversation before this and.

933

The feeling of loneliness.

934

It's so easy in a busy world to not think

about social health and to get caught

935

up running a business, super busy, maybe

you're a parent and then it's when you

936

sit down that, that uncomfortable feeling,

there's something up and disconnection

937

wherever it is, between your mind and

your body, between you and your family,

938

between us and our community and I

see between us and the environment.

939

If we can reconnect, good things happen.

940

a really powerful subject.

941

Thanks.

942

I am so thankful for you

sharing your experience, but

943

personally, professionally,

it's really fascinating to hear.

944

Thank you, April.

945

And of course, let's meet up for

a cup of coffee in real life.

946

April Baker: Yes, let's do it.

947

Social health.

948

Sal Jefferies: health.

949

So my dear listeners, I trust

there is many, many things

950

that you've got from that.

951

But if there's one thing you can

take from it, action is traction.

952

So if there's something going on for

you, whether it's you want to find out

953

about volunteering, whether you want to

solve your own challenges, or a friend's,

954

whatever it might be, take action.

955

Action means change.

956

until the next time, take care.

957

Thank you so much for listening.

958

If you enjoyed the episode,

please subscribe and if a friend

959

would benefit from hearing this,

do send it on to them as well.

960

If you would like to get in touch

yourself, then you can go to my website,

961

which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S

A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.

962

Hit the get in touch link and there

you can send me a direct message.

963

If you'd like to go one step further

and learn whether coaching could help

964

you overcome a challenge or a block

in your life, then do reach out and

965

I offer a call where we can discuss

how this may be able to help you.

966

Until the next time, take care.