In this episode of The Articulate Fly, host Marvin Cash sits down with Pennsylvania guide Frank Landis to delve into the art of night fishing for predator trout. They explore all aspects of this thrilling pursuit, from scouting water and selecting the right gear to choosing flies and perfecting presentation techniques. Frank shares his insights on the unique challenges and rewards of fishing under the cover of darkness, offering listeners a treasure trove of practical advice and fascinating anecdotes.

Marvin and Frank also discuss the importance of mentorship in fly fishing, with Frank highlighting the influence of his father and other notable figures in his angling journey. They touch on the distinctive fly fishing culture in Pennsylvania and the camaraderie among local guides.

Listeners will gain valuable tips on everything from the best rod and reel setups to the nuances of fly selection and presentation at night. Frank emphasizes the importance of patience, persistence and experimentation, encouraging anglers to embrace the unique sensory experience of night fishing and to be mindful of their surroundings and local landowners.

Don't miss this episode packed with expert advice, local insights and a deep dive into the exciting world of night fishing for predator trout.

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Helpful Episode Chapters

00:00 Introduction

07:56 The Journey to Becoming a Guide

13:01 Discovering Night Fishing

17:43 Differences in Night Fishing Techniques

23:26 Gear Essentials for Night Fishing

35:33 Selecting the Right Flies

48:36 Strategies for Attacking the Water

55:36 Common Mistakes Made by Newbies

58:25 Respecting Landowners and Safety at Night

Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly.

Intro: Before we get to our interview, our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone

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Intro: Our guest this episode is Pennsylvania guide Frank Landis.

Intro: Frank and I take a deep dive into night fishing for predator trout.

Intro: We cover it all, scouting water, fishing and non-fishing gear,

Intro: flies, and presentation.

Intro: I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview,

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Intro: fish as much as we want. Almost overnight, planning a fishing trip went from

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Intro: Now, on to our interview.

Marvin: Well, Frank, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Frank: Hi, Marvin. How's it going?

Marvin: Just trying to stay out of trouble. And, you know, we have a tradition on the

Marvin: Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Frank: Sure. Yeah, I was really young. I have a bunch of young fishing memories.

Frank: I might have been, I don't know, four or five years old. I can remember my aunt

Frank: and uncle taking me out to a bluegill pond and just throwing a bobber under

Frank: some, you know, with worms under a bobber and catching bluegill very, very easily.

Frank: And that was like obviously exciting and then

Frank: to uh compare that to maybe the opposite experience my

Frank: dad took me out um bass fishing in a

Frank: lake with like regular gear as like a five-year-old and

Frank: i don't know that's even the first time he ever took me fishing but like i can

Frank: remember not catching anything snagging all the time you know we're fishing

Frank: like rubber uh you know bass uh you know just you know bass lures and stuff

Frank: and for like a little kid it was just uh you know maybe a little too hard and

Frank: had no success so i had like two good experiences where i had like

Frank: a really easy time and then like a real tough time and you know that's real

Frank: fishing so set me up good for uh you know my expectations going forward yeah.

Marvin: Good thing you weren't uh losing crankbaits or your dad probably wouldn't have

Marvin: ever taken you fishing again.

Frank: Right yeah no just soft plastics yeah i think it was like you know rubber uh

Frank: rubber soft plastics that kind of thing so not too bad yeah.

Marvin: And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing.

Frank: Yeah someone that always fly fished uh and you know while he would be fly fishing

Frank: i'd often just have bait or spinners or whatever you know, kids fish with.

Frank: And then, um, yeah, I would get a situation where everything would be nice and easy.

Frank: He'd hand me the fly rod and, you know, sometimes I'd hook a fish and oftentimes

Frank: I'd break them off because you're trying to pick them straight up with five

Frank: or six eggs and, you know, a stock trout or whatever, and, uh, you know, snap it off.

Frank: But I definitely got that, uh, first experience at super young.

Frank: And then I think by middle school, I can remember like, uh, tying a couple like

Frank: elk hair caddis and catching some fish on them at my local stock upstream.

Frank: So, um, pretty solid early, um, set of memories, fly fishing,

Frank: but then, you know, I didn't really dive in where I'm fully fly fishing until

Frank: I was a little bit older, college age. So.

Marvin: Uh, got it. And so who are some of the folks that have mentored during your

Marvin: fly fishing journey and what have they taught you?

Frank: Yeah so obviously my dad um you know what my dad

Frank: really instilled with us the basics of fly fishing um yeah he

Frank: was a decent angler himself um kind of got me started and

Frank: then what really what i think really like influencing those

Frank: with my dad's like um and one way showed me

Frank: it was to when when you do a hobby just diving full

Frank: in um first it was archery when i was

Frank: young we used to shoot recurve a lot as i got older it turned

Frank: into white water kayaking we'd drive all over the place to

Frank: find whitewater waiting for you know rainstorms to

Frank: hit different parts of the east coast and driving there you know when

Frank: we had the chance and that that eventually evolved into fishing by the

Frank: time i was in college so um he really taught me to kind of uh you know really

Frank: dive into hobbies and indulge rather than dabble um and so that was kind of

Frank: my start and so by college i'm really fishing a lot um eventually i moved to

Frank: carlisle and got a job out this way teaching and then uh worked at TCO Fly Shop out here and then,

Frank: you know, met a bunch of people, but one that stands out is Tom Baltz.

Frank: I think you said you know Tom, correct?

Marvin: Yeah, I met Tom I think at the, for the first time at the, probably one of the

Marvin: last fly tying symposiums before COVID hit.

Frank: Gotcha. Has he been on your show? I didn't, I had never seen him,

Frank: never seen that. I don't remember.

Marvin: No, he's on the list though.

Frank: Oh, cool, cool. Well, he'd be a good one. He's a legend in our area.

Frank: He's been guiding, man, I want to say close to 40, 50 years in this area.

Frank: So, I mean, like you're not going to find a person with a better wealth of experience

Frank: and you're not going to find someone who knows as much just locally.

Frank: And, you know, what better person to talk to than someone who's been doing the

Frank: exact same thing that I'm trying to do for the last 40, 50 years?

Frank: He's just a wealth of knowledge. He's become quite a good friend.

Frank: I mean, we've talked a lot and spent a lot of time, me and my wife hanging out

Frank: with his wife quite a bit.

Frank: And we've become close so he's just been a huge influence to me uh

Frank: on the fishing side of things locally in this area um

Frank: as well and then um

Frank: one more i think is worth that we're gonna be talking about night fishing um

Frank: and then the person who really got me thinking about the night game and really

Frank: got me excited is a good friend sam gall um up at the eco state college store

Frank: um he's uh the head guide up there um and he's just an amazing angler and again

Frank: a great guide um i've spent quite

Frank: a bit of time with him when i'm guiding up in that neck of the woods i'll crash

Frank: at his house and we've had endless conversations about you

Frank: know all things fishing and one of the things that came up over and over was

Frank: night fishing right and uh he really piqued my interest and got me got me thinking

Frank: telling me crazy stories about say still weird things and big fish and you know

Frank: how it's different and exciting and that's really what sparked my interest and

Frank: um not only just the interest but like his platform his methods that's kind

Frank: of what i started with and that was kind of

Frank: where I build my kind of night fishing program off of his techniques.

Frank: So that's kind of my guy there.

Marvin: Yeah, very, very neat. And so, you know, how did you initially get the guide bug?

Frank: So I worked at the TCO Boiling Springs shop for maybe three years when I moved

Frank: in this area before I started guiding.

Frank: It was just a natural transition, I think.

Frank: I'm a teacher, so I fish a lot. I'm already a teacher.

Frank: Those two things go hand in hand when it comes to guiding. So eventually,

Frank: Jake Villewalk, Relentless Fly Fishing, who does all the TCO trips in my area,

Frank: he pretty much gave me that shot.

Frank: And I started guiding a couple trips a year, and it's kind of been growing from

Frank: there. So that's kind of how that all started.

Marvin: Very very cool are there some folks kind of on the guide side that have kind

Marvin: of helped you hone your craft.

Frank: Yeah i mean um everybody

Frank: in the tco kind of world that i've

Frank: run into has played you know some type of role you

Frank: know guys that you've had on the show um other guys as

Frank: well i mean my good friend alex um caliveras he's

Frank: a full-time guy in our area i mean uh he's

Frank: been a great friend in mind just a good peer um brandon

Frank: he that on the show brennan ruch um as well um neil

Frank: sunday i worked with him at the shop quite a bit and uh

Frank: you know i've gone on a couple of you know group trips with neil and just picking

Frank: up on little things like you know the best places to take your clients to lunch

Frank: or or things like that like yeah good tough stuff like that from neil um you

Frank: know eric nagoski who you've had on the show i believe um you know just picking

Frank: up like bug information from them.

Frank: So all the guys that are around that TCO community, I'm missing them too,

Frank: but there's a lot more, but you know, all those dudes.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you know, there's such a unique fly fishing

Marvin: culture in Pennsylvania, right?

Marvin: And so it's kind of interesting to see all those guys kind of get together and share information.

Frank: Oh, yeah. I think it's been a good, like, you know, it's never been,

Frank: I've never felt like people were shielding spots or information,

Frank: at least, you know, most of the people I've ever met in the, you know, in this area.

Frank: I mean, it's all pretty, it's a good community and people are trying to work

Frank: with each other and it goes pretty well.

Marvin: Yeah, neat. And, you know, so when I have guides on, I have kind of two questions

Marvin: that, you know, I like to ask them. And, you know, the first one is,

Marvin: you know, what do you think is the secret to being a good guide?

Frank: Yeah so um i mean there's the the starting

Frank: out point that like you'll hear it over and over hey you gotta

Frank: know your your your fishing stuff whatever fishing program you're trying

Frank: to run you got to be good at it you got to know it um there's that and

Frank: you also have to be a people person right um if you're

Frank: not good with people you're not going to make for a very good guide uh

Frank: you're going to deal with all sorts especially when you're working on a fly shop or you

Frank: might get anybody you know um you have to be pretty good with different

Frank: types of people um beyond that though um what

Frank: i've noticed there's tons of like situations where certain people

Frank: and certain guys really mesh well and it

Frank: could be for any reason like it could be for a fishing reason a

Frank: non-fishing reason but i've seen like so many combinations of

Frank: that so like you know when you have a good you know uh marriage so to say of

Frank: like intentions um i see that work out really well and so you know guides and

Frank: clients out there should be i think they should be looking for finding those

Frank: connections because that's where like the magic happens and you have really

Frank: good experience on the water when And you meet those people and it's really

Frank: working. Everyone's working together.

Frank: And then it's not like you're like, you don't want a really good guy trip.

Frank: You don't feel like you have to do everything. You feel like you're just like

Frank: a part of the process. And that's when it's as smooth as it can be.

Marvin: Yeah, it's neat because, I mean, I've kind of, you know, been fortunate enough

Marvin: over the years to develop those personal relationships with people that I fish with.

Marvin: And, you know, you kind of do kind of become like family.

Frank: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I have a client that, you know,

Frank: I've guided so many times and Alex Clivers guides him as well.

Frank: We kind of, we both guide him a lot.

Frank: And, man, I text him, if I catch a cool fish, I text it to him and,

Frank: you know, we're chatting and keep each other updated on each other's lives.

Frank: And, you know, it's been a good, good, good way to make, you know,

Frank: new relationships with people, new contacts. And yes, it's a good thing.

Marvin: Yeah, very, very neat. And then the second question I always like to ask guides

Marvin: is I ask them to share what they think the biggest misconception is that folks

Marvin: have about the life of a fishing guide.

Frank: Yeah, so I definitely don't live that full-time program. You know,

Frank: I'm a teacher full-time, so I'm definitely doing it on the side.

Frank: And, you know, I think that's maybe what I'd say is that there's a lot of guides

Frank: out there that are from all walks of life on different schedules.

Frank: And, you know, as long as they're passionate about it, as long as they're invested

Frank: into it and they're there, you know, working for you to give you the best day.

Frank: I mean, you can find great guides that are in all different situations.

Frank: You know, there's some I know some great guides that are doing it every single

Frank: day, like a Sam Galt that I've already mentioned or Neil and Alex that are full time for us down here.

Frank: But then there's guys, you know, that, you know, they might only do like 15

Frank: trips a year, 10 trips a year.

Frank: But those 10, 15 trips are quality with like, you know, clients that they,

Frank: you know, we've said had a good relationship with. And, uh, you know,

Frank: that's meaningful to you and it's just a different way of doing things.

Frank: So there's all sorts of different scenarios you can find yourself in,

Frank: uh, with on the guiding side of things. I think you're just really positive in general.

Marvin: Yeah. I think it's neat to watch people that have kind of been in the game for

Marvin: a while because, you know, generally they end up in a place where they're kind

Marvin: of fishing with those people that have become friends that like to be,

Marvin: you know, fish the way they like to guide people fishing or the way they like to fish.

Marvin: And it's really kind of cool to kind of watch, you know, guides as they kind

Marvin: of, you know, for lack of a better word, kind of grow up in guiding to kind

Marvin: of, you know, build that universe of people around them.

Frank: Yeah, definitely. And it's, you know, it's, it's every, it's everything from,

Frank: you know, your clients, the people that you fish with for fun,

Frank: your other guys that you guide with.

Frank: And there's other guys that I've learned a lot from, I've never even spent a

Frank: moment on the water with, you know, I've never even fished with these guys.

Frank: And we've talked and we've shared information and, you know,

Frank: the whole community you're talking about, that's, that's great. It's good stuff. Yeah.

Marvin: And so, you know, it's interesting, right? So you got on my radar screen because

Marvin: you're working on kind of developing this niche and guiding for trout at night.

Marvin: And so I was kind of curious, you know, Frank, what drew you to the night game?

Frank: Yeah so um you know i've always dabbled in night

Frank: fishing to some degree um typically it'd be

Frank: like you know you're fishing an evening hash like you're

Frank: fishing drake spinners or hex spinners or something like that and um

Frank: you know the hash winds down fish stop rising oh i heard about mousing i'll

Frank: throw this mouse on and just see what happens and maybe you catch a fish maybe

Frank: have a pull up and you know i dabbled in like night fishing like that for a

Frank: while just a handful of times a year just like for the novelty of it and then

Frank: like i said starting starting to hang hanging out with Sam Galt, um,

Frank: hearing his excitement, his enthusiasm, that really just like got me going. Right.

Frank: And so kind of how I describe it to people is like, if you are an adventurous

Frank: angler, or if you are the kind of person who's like, maybe you've done,

Frank: you've done a lot of that, you've done it all, you know, you've,

Frank: you've fished for trout,

Frank: you've, you've done some saltwater, you've kind of like went through the,

Frank: you know, the, the pieces of someone going through the fly fishing world.

Frank: Uh, the night fishing game will probably be interesting to those field too.

Frank: Um, it's different. you know you're out there there's

Frank: nobody around you you have solitude the places

Frank: that are shoulder to shoulder you know during a

Frank: hatch or during a busy time you might go out at night and there's literally

Frank: no one you know and it's such an amazing situation just have to literally have

Frank: the whole river to yourself um literally um not just figuratively um difficult

Frank: um you're blind out there you can't see you know the light spits fish so you're

Frank: not turning that light on um it's challenging.

Frank: Um it makes you feel like you're like you're a beginner again

Frank: you have to relearn things that like maybe you took for granted like

Frank: what the best even just like what the best water types of

Frank: fish is i mean that completely now has changed at night so

Frank: just like you know the whole new set of experiences to kind of work through

Frank: mentally and with your fishing um and then also what everybody thinks of you

Frank: know get the big trout um you know that might be a little overplayed uh in terms

Frank: of like uh how easy that is to run into those big trout at night uh but they're

Frank: there and And that's one of the times they feed.

Frank: And it's one of the times they make themselves available to us.

Frank: So, you know, the big trout are there.

Frank: You know, and it's a time of year, like, you know, when the fishing is hard,

Frank: you know, during the day. And the night fishing gets kind of easy and good.

Frank: You know, those water temperatures are creeping up. And, you know,

Frank: maybe people are backing off a little bit because it's low and clear. Fish are spooky.

Frank: Maybe martial temps, middle of the day. But at night, man, that's kind of like,

Frank: you know, another chance you can get after it.

Frank: And it's fun. on um so you know that's the call for all those reasons man it's an exciting game.

Marvin: Yeah it's interesting too you know for me like

Marvin: even on the non-fishing side because you know

Marvin: i generally float uh when i fish at night um but but you know like just the

Marvin: experience of like a little bit of moonlight starlight you know the wildlife

Marvin: you know hearing like you know beaver slap their tail or even better you know

Marvin: hearing that yeah toilet flush sound right when the flag goes away um oh Oh.

Frank: Yeah.

Marvin: It's just a totally different experience, right?

Frank: Yeah, you're tapping in the senses that, like, you don't need to tap into during the day. Like, sound.

Frank: Even, like, thinking about, like, not knowing where your fly lands.

Frank: I mean, you're listening for the splat of your mouse hitting the surface,

Frank: and that's how you know if you got close to the bank or not.

Frank: So you're tapping in the parts of your sensory system that you don't really have to during the day.

Frank: You mentioned the wildlife. I've had so many, like, weird wildlife experiences at night. Right.

Frank: You know, I think Sam told me one time, he's like, you know,

Frank: half of the biological world is happening out there at night.

Frank: But we're kind of oblivious to most of that as humans.

Frank: You know, we don't even pay attention to it. And it's all out there.

Frank: It's available to us and we can experience it and you can be out there.

Frank: You just can't see. Right.

Marvin: Yeah. I tell you, you know, one of the neatest things, and it's not really wildlife, it's fishing.

Marvin: But, you know, fishing at night on the Watauga and floating out into the lake

Marvin: and moving like, you know, 50 and 60 striper schools.

Marvin: You know, fish kind of, yeah, kind of, kind of wild.

Marvin: Right. Cause there's stripers in that system too. And so you're coming out and,

Marvin: you know, you're done, you know, trying to get Mr.

Marvin: Big Brown Trout and, you know, you turn your light on and you've got like pods

Marvin: of like, you know, 40 to 60 striped bass.

Frank: That's awesome. Yeah, we definitely don't have that here. And I think like,

Frank: you know, you mentioned like the floating dynamic.

Frank: Unfortunately, again, my local areas, we don't have rivers that can like sustain

Frank: a reasonable float at night.

Frank: When the night fishing conditions are good.

Frank: You know, if I drove three hours in a direction, I might have some of that.

Frank: But you know, my bread and butter stuff is not really, you know, available on a boat.

Frank: You know, we can float rivers when they're kind of too high to wade in our area,

Frank: like our mainstay rivers.

Frank: River so i don't get the chance to fish them at night as much but like i guess

Frank: like to talk about the differences there like what are you what is the process

Frank: like how much water are you guys covering how far are you floating at night

Frank: um how much how long are you spending in a run or a pool are you moving a lot

Frank: or you know what's what's your basic game plan so i can kind of bounce off that.

Marvin: Yeah i mean so you know i would say the float is probably not quite as long

Marvin: as like a traditional day float right but but i mean you know not unusual to

Marvin: like put on um you know it kind of depends on how you're doing it but you know

Marvin: you could like you know put on like in uh

Marvin: like two or three o'clock in the afternoon kind of quote normal fish right and

Marvin: then kind of eat dinner at dusk and then fish until like four or five o'clock

Marvin: in the morning and so that's.

Frank: How that lasts a long day.

Marvin: Yeah i mean yeah you do it back to back it'll really kind of wear you out But,

Marvin: I mean, I would say since you're fishing, you know, you're not generally going

Marvin: back and refishing areas.

Marvin: You're kind of just kind of consistently kind of working down the river.

Frank: And.

Marvin: You know, I would.

Frank: Say— You're not anchoring up really too much or anything.

Marvin: No. And I would say, too, like, you know, not really anchoring up.

Marvin: And, you know, current's relatively slow. And so, you know, you're just kind

Marvin: of consistently, you know, kind of working your way down the river,

Marvin: maybe sneaking peaks at the bank with your headlamp every now and again,

Marvin: just to make sure that you kind of have an idea about what's coming up.

Marvin: And yeah, and then I don't row the boat for the record.

Frank: So I know that river.

Marvin: Yeah, I deeply trust the folks that I fish with on the Watauga and the South

Marvin: Holston because, I mean, you know, when you're starting to float through,

Marvin: like, you know, Class II rapids in the dark, it makes it kind of interesting.

Frank: Right, right, trying to know your lines.

Marvin: Yeah, and so, you know, I would say that, and then I would say probably compared

Marvin: to how you do it, there's probably a little bit more light pollution,

Marvin: you know, because sections of the South Holston and the Watauga are relatively close to the road.

Marvin: Obviously there are people that like to have houses on the river there's also

Marvin: you know not an insignificant amount

Marvin: of what I would kind of consider light industrial right so you might have a

Marvin: warehouse that's got like you know spotlights and stuff but you know the flip

Marvin: side of that is you know from a wildlife perspective you get to see like you

Marvin: know heron and osprey at night basically looking for shadows to try to find

Marvin: a fish that makes a mistake.

Frank: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's pretty cool. I mean, I love to do that.

Frank: That sounds, that sounds awesome.

Frank: I mean, just, just from hearing your description though, like the big differences

Frank: that pop out as you describe what that's like would be, um, I can fish at night for a lot less.

Frank: Like I don't have to commit such a big night, you know, you know,

Frank: if I have work the next day, I can go out and if it's, especially this time

Frank: of year, we're, we're now in late September, you're getting shorter.

Frank: I can get out of like, you know, maybe eight o'clock nine, eight 30 and it's already dark.

Frank: And if that moon doesn't come up to 11 you know i might i might fish you know

Frank: 8 30 to 11 get home i'm in bed by before midnight and i can get uh six seven

Frank: hours of sleep which you know maybe i should get my full eight but you know

Frank: it's you know at least i guess a respectable amount of sleep and you know i'm

Frank: at work the next day so there's that less commitment,

Frank: um and like you alluded to like i will like refish

Frank: water that's really good on foot um and really work it thoroughly there's and

Frank: i do with a lot of confidence like on that third second pass I have just as

Frank: much faith that that big fish is going to eat on that second and third pass

Frank: because sometimes it takes those fish a second to kind of settle in the spot,

Frank: especially right after dark.

Frank: And then also just like the nature of it being harder for them to find the food.

Frank: You know, you might just simply miss them and you might just kind of pass by

Frank: them. And, you know, you got to give those fish a chance to eat your fly.

Frank: So I have no qualms with, you know, hitting the same spot two and three times

Frank: over and kind of being more thorough.

Frank: And then, you know, obviously you got the weighting factors.

Frank: Or you're stumbling out there at night, you kind of have to know the river,

Frank: pick sections of the river that you are comfortable wading based on your skill

Frank: level, what you're good at, what you know.

Frank: You can really night fish anywhere that you can wade, but it might be smart

Frank: to kind of pick and choose your spots wisely there.

Marvin: Yeah, urgent care is probably not something you want to add to the dance card, I would imagine.

Frank: No, and I've had my trips to the hospital for different things I've laid,

Frank: but hopefully night fishing doesn't get me there either. Yeah.

Marvin: And so kind of in your neck of the woods, you know, where do you like to fish at night?

Frank: Yeah. So, I mean, like, you know, I live in the Cumberland Valley.

Frank: So that would be like the Yellow Breaches and all of our famous spring creeks that are in this area.

Frank: And that's kind of my local haunts that, you know, I guide, you know,

Frank: that water in the day most. And that's where I'm fishing, you know, locally.

Frank: But also like your central PA, like stream reports that you do with George,

Frank: all those rivers that you mentioned on that, They all fish very well at night

Frank: and have something to offer to us at night.

Frank: So, you know, you have that. And then also, man, like anywhere I've traveled

Frank: to, like vacation-wise, like the Rocky Mountain West, a ton of night fishing

Frank: I've done in Colorado with a good bit of success there.

Frank: A little bit in wyoming here and there um i've

Frank: avoided night fishing where i think i could run into a grizzly

Frank: bear because it's kind of freaks me out even though it's probably not likely

Frank: it's still man i don't i don't trust that so i'm not nice fish some of those

Frank: places at least not not waiting i wouldn't do a waiting but um you know so you

Frank: got some wildlife in some parts of the country that might uh make me a little

Frank: hesitant but overall man like you know it's pretty safe thing to do and i've

Frank: not done almost anywhere i've fished except for you know some of those densely,

Frank: grizzly populated places like you know that freaks me out so i've avoided that yeah.

Marvin: It's kind of funny because i would say you know i fished out west a fair amount

Marvin: and i'm more scared of moose and bison than i am a grizzly bears.

Frank: Sure and i think a moose at night would be like you know your you know your

Frank: sneak off the willows along a bank uh you know freaking colorado and that there

Frank: could definitely be moose there,

Frank: um i think about cats you know they're way more active and you know your mountain

Frank: lions and everything so that's been in the back of my mind you you know, on Colorado.

Frank: And, you know, typically I'm trying to go with other people or, you know, keep a light.

Frank: Like if I've been freaked out, whether it was for a good reason or not,

Frank: I like taking my headlamp and turn it on and shine it backwards off the back of my head.

Frank: So like think that like, oh, if a cat's going to sneak up on me or some animals

Frank: out there, that might spook it a little bit.

Frank: So I don't know if that works or not or if that's even, you know, worth doing.

Frank: But that's something that you do to kind of calm the nerves when you're in a

Frank: place where you think like, oh man, what if there's something there?

Frank: You know i've done stuff like that so it's fun it's interesting it's funny if nothing else yeah.

Marvin: It's a good story and so you know in terms of you know when you're waiting uh

Marvin: kind of where you like to fish you know you know how do you find good night

Marvin: water and you know what are kind of your optimal conditions for night fishing.

Frank: Sure yep so in

Frank: terms of like the water types we'll start with that um i

Frank: would say like the the water that's adjacent to the

Frank: good daytime water is kind of what you're looking for that's maybe

Frank: a little slower maybe a little shallower softer um a place where a fish could

Frank: like leave this daytime holding line slide into like a prime feeding spot where

Frank: it can you know take advantage of a you know crayfish or a mouse or you know

Frank: whatever it might be you know that's what you're looking for um so that can be you know,

Frank: the tail out to pools the shallows below or above

Frank: a really nice run um something in your structure

Frank: where it wouldn't you could reasonably imagine like okay a

Frank: big fish lives under this log maybe drops back 10 feet into these shallows and

Frank: eats a crayfish every couple nights you know those kind of places so that's

Frank: the type of water just generally slower calm or stuff than maybe what you fish

Frank: during the day um and then you mentioned like conditions um you know typically

Frank: the warmer Summer months are your best bet.

Frank: I mean, especially in places that have some thermal scenario going on where

Frank: fish feed more at night for thermal reasons.

Frank: That's definitely, you know, I tried and chewed away the fish at night.

Frank: But, you know, I like a clear night, as little ambient light as possible,

Frank: as little moonlight as possible.

Frank: Sometimes clouds can help or hurt that problem. Like, you know,

Frank: clouds might block out the moon, but clouds can also reflect light from a town.

Frank: So you kind of have to, you know, think about what you're doing and kind of

Frank: calculate the moon and light situations.

Frank: And I've found that generally the fish are feeding better on a darker night

Frank: and especially the bigger fish.

Frank: Not to say you can't go out on the full moon and find the shadows and hit those

Frank: spots and get a fish to eat.

Frank: But generally I'm making those darker nights, um, clear water.

Frank: I definitely don't like dirty water.

Frank: And I'm definitely trying to avoid the fog on the surface.

Frank: Uh, when you get like a, you know, maybe the water's, um, kind of warm or cold.

Frank: And then the temperature there temperature is like dramatically different you

Frank: get that surface fog at night um that can cause some problems i don't know why

Frank: but the fish don't like that so that's something i avoid but yeah you're looking

Frank: for those clear nights like a starry night no moon late summer early fall pre-spawn

Frank: those are like my favorite conditions.

Marvin: Got it and i know you know when we were talking before we uh we did the interview

Marvin: you were telling me that there's actually a difference between night fishing

Marvin: at spring creek versus a freestone.

Frank: Stone yeah definitely um the big thing is

Frank: the consistency in water temperature like i'll need

Frank: one river for each to get to give a example for

Frank: those who might know spots that are not you know

Frank: no secrets you said we have in my area i have a little torch spring run that

Frank: runs right through carlisle where i live and that's you know 50 some degrees

Frank: every single day of the year it's not changing it is what it is the fish are

Frank: spooky during the day and from my experience they're They're also spooky during

Frank: the night. You know, they're not necessarily...

Frank: They haven't let their guard down. I think they feel vibrations.

Frank: The way the banks are, I think they feel vibrations.

Frank: I've walked up to the bank at night in pitchback conditions,

Frank: and I've seen big fish push lakes off the bank.

Frank: They felt me coming up to the bank. So they're still spooky.

Frank: And they're also less predictable in those spring creeks because they don't

Frank: have to feed at night for a thermal reason.

Frank: A good example where they have to feed at night for a thermal reason would be

Frank: Penns Creek that I know you guys talk about in your stream report out there.

Frank: Um pens you know it has uh definitely some

Frank: sketchy temperatures during the summer um so

Frank: you know the best time the most predictable time to

Frank: fish a river like that the freestone in pens has some limestone

Frank: influence of spring influence way up top but as it goes you know

Frank: farther down it's more like a freestone um what you'll

Frank: find is like if you have a day where maybe the daytime

Frank: temps are creeping up into low 70s high 60s and

Frank: you want to lay off the trout you know for for thermal reasons seasons

Frank: um at that same night you know let the sun

Frank: go down for a few hours and it might drop down to 62 60 when

Frank: those fish are ready to feed they have to feed so because

Frank: they have to take advantage of that like window for their

Frank: metabolism it's like when it's healthier for them to be active um they're going

Frank: to be interested in eating stuff at night no matter what it is uh surface subsurface

Frank: anything they're on it so um you know that's an interesting little dynamic and

Frank: And I think a freestone or something that has a temperature,

Frank: a predictable temperature swing, you can get that really predictable night.

Frank: But not to say, though, that on the Spring Creek or a tailwater where you have

Frank: that consistent temp, you can get into some good night fishing there, too.

Frank: But it just might not be as like, you know, not clockwork in the same way because

Frank: the fish don't have to feed then.

Marvin: Got it. And, you know, kind of moving on to gear, you know, what's your kind

Marvin: of preferred, you know, rod reel and terminal tackle setup for night fishing?

Frank: Yeah, so in my area, I'm the only one with a 9'6". Like a Scott Centric,

Frank: it's one of my favorite rods I ever casted ever. So, like, it's fun to use at night.

Frank: Any fast action 9'6", I also have a Loomis IMS Pro that I use because I unfortunately broke my Centric.

Frank: So, picked up that rod a little back up, and that's a great rod, too.

Frank: Any stiff 9'6 is kind of perfect for our area.

Frank: You know, out of the boat, or if you are really fishing big flies,

Frank: you could totally go up to a 7 or 8 weight it's not going to hurt you,

Frank: that's an option but for what I do a 6 weight, your reel pick your reel,

Frank: it doesn't matter fly line is pretty important I like the Scientific Angler Infinity Glow,

Frank: the Infinity Taper is kind of ideal it's a good line for mending,

Frank: it's a long taper it's not like an aggressive like an MPX or something like

Frank: that, it's real front heavy,

Frank: that's nice for mending and mending was an important part of my presentation

Frank: so that's why i prefer that line i think it's real gold makes a um a nightline

Frank: to a glow line to a dsa a little bit better for casting big flies and mending

Frank: so i like that better um have you fished a glow do you guys fish glow lines right yeah.

Marvin: I've done that i was just kind of curious on the taper is the taper kind of

Marvin: similar like the titan long.

Frank: Uh yeah but not

Frank: as overly it's similar to the in concept but it's

Frank: not as go over over lined right so the infinity

Frank: is a half size heavy and i think the titan long

Frank: might be up to two line weights heavy so um

Frank: similar in concept but um you know

Frank: i like the uh just kind of straightforward and you know close to

Frank: line weight but a little half size heavy and then the mending of that

Frank: is kind of why i like it so much you know

Frank: for the casting and while i what i do the mpx

Frank: might be better or some of the more like shooting head style lines might be

Frank: a little little better for casting these flies but when it comes to the presentation

Frank: which you know if you know how to cast you're gonna get your fly out there uh

Frank: then the mending and the control the line control i think that's way more important

Frank: so that's why i kind of go down to that uh infinity kind of why i i prefer that yeah.

Marvin: I mean i think the glow in the dark line it really is a game changer right i

Marvin: mean you know um you know like one of the cool things right if you even if you

Marvin: don't charge the entire line and so for folks that aren't familiar basically

Marvin: what you do is you take Take your UV light from your tying bench and use that

Marvin: to charge your line, right? You just ball it up in your hand and zap it.

Marvin: But one of the cool things you can do is you can actually charge sections of the line, right?

Marvin: So you can have like a two-inch section charged and then move up a foot, you know?

Marvin: And so the great thing, right, is you can have really sensitive strike detection

Marvin: if you need it because you just kind of watch the orientation of those like

Marvin: glowing parts to see if they change just like fishing, like,

Marvin: you know, two little, uh, stick on indicators. Right.

Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can do, you can do a lot of cool stuff with the glow line.

Frank: And, you know, I'm always torn on like, whether I'm going to charge it up or not.

Frank: I mean, generally I don't, because I kind of just like simply for the fun of

Frank: it, enjoy not having the added advantage of that glow line. Right.

Frank: I kind of get a kick out of that.

Frank: Right. Just like completely being blind is fun to me.

Frank: So I choose that even though it's a disadvantage, but if I'm guiding or taking

Frank: somebody out, that's new.

Frank: So many times i've seen people like maybe struggling

Frank: to cast or like being completely clueless on

Frank: what's going on and i charge that lineup for them and they're like oh and

Frank: changes them as an angler it makes them like very competent all

Frank: of a sudden and i've seen that happen a couple times and

Frank: it's a cool thing um if i'm fishing on familiar water i'll

Frank: certainly charge it up if i don't know what my swing is

Frank: doing if i'm not kind of sure what's going on out there where i'm

Frank: laying or whatever you know it definitely uh solves that problem

Frank: so i certainly have it on all the time on a night fish um it's

Frank: even like just white and to begin with so it's

Frank: a lighter it's not like an olive or anything like that like a normal fly line

Frank: off it is so like just the fact that it's white in certain conditions i see

Frank: it without even charging it sometimes um i see it enough anyway and you know

Frank: it's a great line i said so i wouldn't i wouldn't be fishing with anything other

Frank: than that line even if i didn't charge it so so it's the way to go yeah.

Marvin: And so what do you put on the business end of the fly line what's your leader and no tippet set up.

Frank: Yeah, I kind of do a store-bought, you know, tapered, real big, nasty.

Frank: I go to a, basically it's a six-foot, really aggressive leader going down to 16-pound.

Frank: And I put a little micro swivel, prevent some twists.

Frank: Like certain flies that we might be fishing, like a Harvey pusher will certainly

Frank: twist lighter, you know, tippets and everything.

Frank: So not that I'm fishing light tippet, but, you know, anytime you're fishing

Frank: big, resistant flies, you could have impart some twists. So I'll put that micro-soil

Frank: on and then a short piece of 12 or 16-pound fluorobarbon for the abrasion resistance.

Frank: A fluoro, I like that pink umpqua stuff that they just came out with a year or two ago.

Frank: That's been good for me. That's kind of what I use. And I think it's like a

Frank: saltwater fluoro. That's how they market it. But I use it at night.

Frank: No, I'll fish 12-pound if I'm trying to go subsurface.

Frank: It sinks a little bit better. if i'm on the surface though where sinking is

Frank: not a factor i'm going i'm gonna open up to 16 pounds so pretty heavy stuff yeah.

Marvin: And it's always great and that's kind of one of the things you kind of at least

Marvin: for me when i started making that transition and fishing more at night is you

Marvin: know you you know you're not fishing six or seven x i mean you know when you

Marvin: hook a fish you can you know strip him in because you're not going to break him off.

Frank: You know you can if that hook

Frank: is buried you can you can play that fish with confidence you

Frank: get them in fast less chances for things to go wrong you know

Frank: sometimes at night i've found like sometimes the fish really freak out and sometimes

Frank: they're just like they're just kind of fooling around like they do during the

Frank: day it kind of depends no matter what they're doing you can really put the wood

Frank: to them with that you know if you have a 16 pound on there and it's just like

Frank: a brown trout in pennsylvania even if it's a huge one you're not going to break

Frank: the fish off unless you've messed up your knots,

Frank: so you know or you have like some nick in your leader from some hitting something

Frank: you know you didn't even know about that's the only way you're breaking the

Frank: fish off so yeah definitely that heavy stuff is a huge advantage yeah.

Marvin: And so what are some of the other gear that you need to have if you're going

Marvin: to go out and fish at night.

Frank: Yeah so definitely the lights um

Frank: the headlamp is crucial you need

Frank: it to tie knots you need it to get around a little bit um i always suggest a

Frank: headlamp that has a red red light option that is turning on first if possible

Frank: um so like you have the option to turn it on first or cycles do it first either

Frank: way um reason for that is obviously Obviously, the white light can spook a trout,

Frank: so if I wanna tie a knot or something that I don't really wanna blow my spot

Frank: up, I'll turn that red light on.

Frank: Catching a small fish that I wanna take a picture of, but it's not worthy of

Frank: a white light, use the red light for that.

Frank: And not going white first, it's big there. And then obviously,

Frank: a nice, good white light for getting around or taking that picture of the big

Frank: one that you got. So the headlamp's super important.

Frank: Um, from there, um, definitely the, on the other end of the likes,

Frank: um, the handheld light is pretty important for my system.

Frank: I gain a lot of information after I'm done fishing a piece of water.

Frank: I'll shine that light and a really bright, like light, like a,

Frank: um, 2000 lumen, like kind of a light.

Frank: And I'll hit the water from the position where you're up a little bit,

Frank: like from a boat, I could see like not being able to even see the fish from

Frank: afar because you don't have the right angle, but you're up in the bank going straight down.

Frank: Shine that and blast that big light on them and you'll see if those fish are

Frank: where they should be on a good night if they're in the shallows and they're

Frank: hanging in a couple inches of water yeah like they were feeding they're not

Frank: in there for no reason so that light gives us a ton of information,

Frank: so you know on the light end of things I think it's important to have both I

Frank: fish with a lot of people that don't have a handheld light and I think it prevents

Frank: you from gaining some information certainly I don't fish a spot anchor I've

Frank: shined a light on it because I have no confidence that those fish are,

Frank: not spooked but you know once you're done you know and before you move spots

Frank: you can get a lot of information from that handheld yeah.

Marvin: And also too just to let folks know that you know the reason that the red light

Marvin: is so important is it doesn't mess up your night vision.

Frank: Yeah oh yeah i forgot forgot to mention that absolutely yep yeah.

Marvin: Because i mean kind of one of the the great things and bad things for fishing

Marvin: at night is all these new headlamps are super bright and so you know the like

Marvin: i mean just compared to like you know i don't know i've probably got like a

Marvin: 10 year old black diamond and I've got one I bought last year when I got a little

Marvin: bit more serious about fishing at night.

Marvin: And I mean, the difference in the, the lumen output is insane, right?

Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a dimmable one?

Marvin: I do. And it's pretty cool. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, um, it's awesome.

Marvin: And, you know, it's great too, cause you can even dim the red light, right? Um, yes.

Frank: Yeah.

Marvin: So super helpful, you know, other than the light stuff, what else do you think

Marvin: folks should bring with them when they get out and fish in the dark?

Frank: Yeah, other than your typical everyday fishing stuff that you bring anywhere,

Frank: probably the wading staff for a lot of people,

Frank: especially the less familiar you are with a piece of water or the slicker it

Frank: is when you can't see, having a third leg there with that wading staff is super helpful.

Frank: That third point of contact is a good thing.

Frank: If you're fishing with friends, and especially if you are not so confident in

Frank: your friend's casting, or maybe you are, but maybe you're going to sneak up

Frank: on them or whatever, a lot of people might fish with safety glasses.

Frank: Glasses um i don't like it because i have

Frank: pretty good vision i i think i see more night than some people

Frank: say they do so um i don't like anything in the way but if you have a real nice

Frank: clear new pair of safety glasses you can see pretty well and you don't want

Frank: to get hooked in the eye with like a size one or a size two barbed behind hook

Frank: uh flying through the air because your friend didn't know that you were sneaking

Frank: up behind them to see how they were doing you know that's

Frank: something that some people fish with and i will situationally hop

Frank: their safety glasses on then yeah you know little things like you know if you

Frank: are around some wildlife maybe the bear spray things like that i mean don't

Frank: really need it in pennsylvania unless uh you know you run into uh you know maybe

Frank: a person would be more likely i'm the most dangerous thing you run into around

Frank: here but uh you know depending where you are the bear spray for the wildlife might be smart,

Frank: When your trip's around at night, you know, you'll get surprised by some animal

Frank: no matter where you are, and you don't want it to be a dangerous one.

Frank: So, it might be smart depending on where you're at.

Marvin: Yeah, and I'd say on the safety glasses front, because, I mean,

Marvin: you know, I don't like it, but I wear them.

Marvin: You know, I've found, I guess, like at Home Depot or Lowe's,

Marvin: they're those clear ones that, you know, fit really closely,

Marvin: so they're not really big and bulky, and they seem to work relatively well.

Marvin: And you're right, right? Like, you know, don't scratch the snot out of them,

Marvin: or they're not going to work very well.

Frank: But you.

Marvin: Know when they're pretty new not so bad.

Frank: Yeah when they're new when they're new they're good and you know if

Frank: i was in a boat like you know you said you must your experience is

Frank: in a boat um that's probably where you want to have them on i probably wouldn't

Frank: fish in a boat without them you know so when you're waiting and you know you're

Frank: 100 yards away from your from your buddy or whatever like you can kind of like

Frank: put them on if you're kind of getting into the danger zone and take them off

Frank: when you're not um you know if you're confident with your own casting and you

Frank: know big thing the big time where you could maybe hook yourself

Frank: and this is the reason i don't go even heavier with my

Frank: tip is like if you can snag on the other side of the

Frank: river and say it's like a river you can't cross like i

Frank: was fishing the upper delaware one time standing on the far bank zero

Frank: percent chance i could cross where i was at waiting you

Frank: know what i mean and i'm like man what do i do if this fly

Frank: breaks off and well it doesn't it doesn't if

Frank: i get it off the snag and it just zings back at me really fast like that's sort

Frank: of dangerous with that d hook coming at me so um you know having a tippet size

Frank: that you can break when you have to is a nice little thing because sometimes

Frank: it's just better if it breaks versus like it flying back at your face at night

Frank: so something to think about yeah.

Marvin: It's actually while you're saying that i was just thinking about i think within

Marvin: the last two weeks um i think chris willen had to extract a hook out of the back of his head.

Frank: Oh yes yeah and i.

Marvin: Don't think he was fishing in the dark but it looked pretty gruesome.

Marvin: I think he went to the emergency room and from what I saw on Instagram,

Marvin: he actually had to get the hook out himself.

Frank: Yikes, yeah. Yeah, no fun. You don't want to do that at any time,

Frank: especially not at night because it's no easier, right?

Marvin: Yeah, and so talking about flies, tell me a little bit about what you like to

Marvin: fish and how you select flies as you fish throughout the evening.

Frank: Yeah, so you can fish nymphs and dry flies at night with a lot of success.

Frank: It's not really what I'm out there trying to do. I'm looking for a predatory

Frank: fish to eat something interesting, right? Something big and fun.

Frank: Um now that doesn't have to be a big fish there's a lot of

Frank: predatory 12 inch trout that are willing to eat your mouse or your streamer

Frank: right so it's not necessarily only big fish but i

Frank: really like like those predatory fish so um with

Frank: five i'm breaking them down into a few categories um you

Frank: got your surface patterns right and that's like your mouse dial uh

Frank: hair bug style foam style patterns that are

Frank: all riding completely on the surface good example

Frank: might be like your master splinter mouse that's like

Frank: you know pretty pretty tried and true simple mouse pattern

Frank: morse mouse morse mouse something like that um surface pattern

Frank: right from there you got like your subsurface stuff um unweighted streamers

Frank: are one of the primary aspects of my night fishing game um i don't like weighted

Frank: stuff i do think the fish are more surface oriented so let's start an unweighted

Frank: streamer unless the going really gets tough i might add some splish out or add of weighted fly,

Frank: but on-weighted streamers that are fished, um,

Frank: what's in a float at the surface, really, is what it boils down to.

Frank: Um, you know, your big wets and your woolly buggers and things like that,

Frank: Harvey Pusher, they're kind of like, you gotta call them wet fly,

Frank: you know, wet flies in that kind of category.

Frank: Mostly swung, a little bit smaller, once again, kind of when the going gets

Frank: tough, that might be a good thing to try.

Frank: And then, uh, the hybrid surface flies, which, what that means is it's a surface

Frank: fly that still pushes awake,

Frank: wake but it has some part of it that's hanging below the

Frank: surface that might be articulation or just the material

Frank: it's riding a little bit lower and that gives

Frank: fish something to see that's not like on the surface film but yet at the same

Frank: time the surface is pushing awake and whatever you know you're fighting on the

Frank: surface makes that v and i think that gets their attention they see something

Frank: hanging below and i think it's a super productive style of fly um and that's what probably if a

Frank: mouse or a frog is actually on the surface probably looks a little bit more

Frank: like that than the actual mouse patterns we fish.

Frank: I'm convinced that when you think you're mousing, the fish might not actually

Frank: be eating your fly for a mouse. It could be anything.

Frank: They're eating it for like not even a thing. And like they're eating it as an opportunity, right?

Frank: So when they see that weight going across the surface, they don't know if that's

Frank: a mouse or a bait fish or whatever.

Frank: It could push a weight, right? They're just eating it. So I definitely think

Frank: something below the surface even just a few minutes an inch or two big difference

Frank: Yeah, I think you'll get a little bit more action a little bit more success

Frank: and hoping help with fish to.

Marvin: God and so a couple kind of streamer questions, you know, what's your,

Marvin: favorite kind of flavor of subsurface streamer?

Frank: Yeah, so I do like an articulated fly. Something that moves a little bit.

Frank: I have a fly that I kind of came up with.

Frank: A guy who's really a big part of the PA night fishing game. His name is Bill

Frank: Ferguson. He gave me a fly that was kind of one of his experiments.

Frank: I looked at it and I'm like, that's pretty cool. I'm going to do something similar.

Frank: I kind of based a fly off of that. I called it Cat.

Frank: It's an unweighted streamer. It has three sections. It has like a B10S number

Frank: two in the front, spun deer hair head, no leather or anything. It's just the deer hair.

Frank: Not packed so tight that it floats. You know, I want it to sink.

Frank: So it's kind of, you know, sometimes I've kind of made them too dense and they

Frank: float a little bit more than I like. So I don't overdo the density of that deer hair.

Frank: Just enough to kind of give it profile and push some water, some marabou behind it.

Frank: And then I have a shank 20mm shank to a Gamma Roost like Harris Gamma Roost

Frank: number 10 hook on the back and,

Frank: I'll trim some like chocolate game shank on those back sections quite flat and

Frank: thin and that makes the fly very like dense up front and very whimsy in the back.

Frank: It makes it swim pretty well and pushes a lot of water but it also because it's

Frank: so light in the back makes it very easy to cast and that's That's like a huge

Frank: part of like my night fishing patterns is like, I want to cast them on a six weight.

Frank: I don't want to feel like I need a seven or eight weight to throw a nice loop and get it under a tree.

Frank: So I like the cast ability of something that's like easy to cast and still moves

Frank: and still give some good action.

Frank: I don't think the specifics of a pattern at night really matter.

Frank: So like something like how easy it is to cast, like really drives like how I choose to tie my flies.

Marvin: Got it. Any color preferences fishing at night?

Frank: Yeah, so the Pennsylvania way is to fish black flies because of the contrast, right?

Frank: The idea that you're kind of blacking out and silhouetting the best with a black color.

Frank: I don't think trout see color that well at night. And obviously,

Frank: they're eating things in real life that are not black.

Frank: So certainly, you don't have to fish a black fly to have success.

Frank: I've seen plenty of people catch fish with olive. But with the black fly,

Frank: certainly is a confidence thing.

Frank: I think that in more situations, they see it better.

Frank: So that's why I go black and you know I've experimented with going all white

Frank: in full moons and stuff like that just because there is some light,

Frank: saturated in and the one time I was fishing with my buddy Alex on a very small stream and

Frank: the moon was rising like pretty early in the night so we

Frank: had like an hour of no moon but then it was like a really bright

Frank: moon came over the trees and I was like dude just

Frank: put a white stream around and he's like cool I think he even asked me should I

Frank: try a white one I'm like go for it like try anything because it

Frank: was slowing down and he put put that white thing on

Frank: and boom immediately started like getting hits like right away in

Frank: that moonlight so you know that's something i'm going to experiment with

Frank: more i haven't put my time into that like side of things but

Frank: it's something interesting to think about like you know the darker situations

Frank: kind of like dirty water going black um and in the brighter situation maybe

Frank: going the opposite going totally white um something i do uh very little like

Frank: almost never but like when the going gets tough if i am out there in full moon

Frank: something that's in my back pocket to try got.

Marvin: It and how about uh flash and rattles.

Frank: Yeah so i do try

Frank: a little bit of flash and most of my flies like just like a black

Frank: like uv polish and yellow looks like purplish strands coming off of it don't

Frank: know that that really is a factor but like i figure like okay there's star light

Frank: you might have a little bit of moon you might have a street light something

Frank: that reflects a little bit so i'll put her on there just as like uh you know

Frank: maybe it works 10 of the time And like, if so, great.

Frank: And rattles are definitely a

Frank: good idea. The fish are picking up your flies from some type of vibration.

Frank: They're not like always seeing them first. Sometimes they feel them first and

Frank: that rattle just gives them something else to feel.

Marvin: Neat. And so talk to me a little bit about kind of like how you work through

Marvin: your fly box, you know, fishing a particular spot.

Frank: Yeah so basically i'll go something confidence oriented

Frank: like my cat streamer that i like to

Frank: fish the reason i call it a cat is because i think it's better than a mouse and cat

Frank: cats eat mice so it's kind of like a i'll play on words there because i like

Frank: to poo-poo mouse fishing a little bit because i think it's funny but um no you

Frank: know i fish that cat streamer like almost always to start and if i'm fishing

Frank: a river that's dense with trout right i know there's like a good fish per

Frank: mile if they're not eating that streamer i'm gonna make

Frank: a change but i'm not gonna change to like another streamer i'm gonna

Frank: change to like a mouse or something like hybrid surface

Frank: fly or a wet or something different i'm not gonna go like one streamer to a

Frank: different streamer i think that's just like your your fly is your presentation

Frank: sometimes and like i believe in changing presentations pushing awake is a different

Frank: presentation than you know it's a five foot

Frank: or six inches out of the water right so i've changed

Frank: that first i'm not changing pretty frequently if

Frank: i'm in an intensely populated river with a lot of trout if i'm in a place where

Frank: i'm like targeting the big fish i know there's less trout i'm not going to change

Frank: as much i might fish that fly for hours and hours and hours knowing that i have

Frank: confidence in it and i'm not fishing for numbers i'm trying to get that one

Frank: i'll stick with the same fly longer than i I would otherwise.

Marvin: Got it. And so, you know, to kind of get a little bit more specific kind of

Marvin: on the attacking the water and the presentation.

Marvin: So, you know, we've scouted water, we've got our gear, we've got our flies,

Marvin: you know, talk to me a little bit about, you know, you get in the water,

Marvin: kind of how are you breaking down and attacking the water and,

Marvin: you know, what are your goals presenting the fly?

Frank: Yeah. So like I said earlier, I'm looking for that, probably a little bit slower

Frank: lower water looking for water that's adjacent to the daytime water and then

Frank: from there like all of my presentations are some type of like swing with some

Frank: type of tension you know sometimes that is like a traditional like the same

Frank: way you'd swing a soft tackle cast it down and across,

Frank: maybe give it a little men and just like hang on and let it

Frank: go right that's like the easiest way to present a fly a night

Frank: and that actually works very well in a ton of situations um as you fish more

Frank: and get a little bit better at it you can start adding some aspects to that

Frank: to kind of make your fly come alive or give it to the fish a little bit differently

Frank: maybe you're pausing it in a certain place that's key maybe you're moving it

Frank: but generally speaking i like to do minimal,

Frank: animations of the fly meaning like i'm not like making that fly go crazy you know maybe one,

Frank: man and a strip like a one man and one a good strip to bring that slack in whatever

Frank: movement minute gave that's it and I'm just gonna let that fly swing so I think

Frank: less is more when it comes to the night presentation um not necessarily.

Frank: Doing a daytime streamer thing where you're like an active retrieve at all I'm

Frank: not doing much of that now sometimes I've seen it work you know I've seen you know uh,

Frank: good friend of mine up at the state college shop his name's ben um one

Frank: time he was like stripping in a woolly bugger super fast and

Frank: like caught a 21 um out of the blue so like that to me is like who was like

Frank: oh surprising but uh you know just kind of proves that different things do work

Frank: but like from what i've seen the slower presentations are kind of like your

Frank: money on the big fish sometimes the smaller fish will key in on that fast stuff

Frank: but you know the night game is like unknown,

Frank: you know, it's like the least, um, experimented with games.

Frank: So like, I'll say this and then you might go out and strip that streamer and

Frank: really fast and catch a big fish and say, Frank, you're wrong.

Frank: And I'd be like, well, yeah, obviously, because there's an, there's hardly anyone

Frank: out here doing this. So, um, experimentation is big.

Frank: And I wouldn't, you know, I have a spot where I've never caught a good fish on top.

Frank: I've only ever caught them on streamers. And my buddy Alex came with me.

Frank: He's like, I'm going to try a mouse.

Frank: I'm like, please try it. Like, please, please run that mouse

Frank: there because if you get them to eat on top i want to see what you did i want

Frank: to learn like were you able to get them to eat that mouse because i haven't

Frank: you know so i'm thinking slower presentations i'm thinking slower water um swinging

Frank: with tension that's the starting point you can get in the weeds from there and

Frank: things to try but that's kind of what i'm thinking yeah.

Marvin: And then you were telling me too earlier in the interview that you like to kind

Marvin: of repeat and really cover the water thoroughly so you might hit somewhere two or three times right.

Frank: Absolutely Absolutely, yeah. I mean, if I know the water has the fish I'm looking

Frank: for, whether that's a big fish or just the numbers of fish, no qualms hitting it three times.

Frank: Definitely changing presentation, though, might not be a bad idea.

Frank: Just try a different thing.

Frank: Maybe you pause that fly a little longer, give it more of a dead drift for a

Frank: few feet, or maybe go for that fast switch and really rip it through the water,

Frank: just to experiment on those second and third passes, just because,

Frank: you might you might as well but on

Frank: the other hand like if i'm really confident like when

Frank: i'm the most confident in a piece of water i'll do

Frank: the same presentation that i know works over

Frank: and over again waiting for like the opportunity because it

Frank: takes fish time to see your fly they take some time i

Frank: think sometimes even settle into night water because they

Frank: go in from there what they were they're going from their daytime program to

Frank: their nighttime program maybe on pass one they weren't even there they might

Frank: have still been under the root ball but on pass three now they're there so you

Frank: can do the same exact presentation you did on pass one and catch them on pass

Frank: three and i've had that happen a lot a few places neat.

Marvin: And so you know what are some common mistakes that newbies make when they start fishing at night.

Frank: Yeah, the big, like, technical mistake that's, like, very easy to solve,

Frank: like, well, easy to explain, but hard to get people to actually do is the hook set, right?

Frank: When you're swinging a fly downstream, current's taking it out, there's some tension.

Frank: The less you do, sometimes the better. Sometimes these fish will hook themselves

Frank: because they're going to grab that fly and turn away and swim away.

Frank: If you just hold your ground and, you know, grab one of that rod real tight

Frank: and hang on to your cork and just wait for it, it's going to happen, right?

Frank: But one of the big mistakes we can do is lift that rod and rip that fly upwards

Frank: to the way you would set for a non-nymph, right?

Frank: That's not what we want to do at night. So many people are bottom or nymphing,

Frank: you know, here or nymphing, whatever, where you need a fast hook set.

Frank: That is just like the opposite instinct that you want. Your default should be

Frank: nothing when you feel something.

Frank: And then like, as the fish gives you more, you can then kind of give it more back, right?

Frank: So like if this fish is, sometimes like you'll feel, especially on subsurface

Frank: spots, It feels weird to tap.

Frank: Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. It gets faster. The worst thing you can do is rip that

Frank: fly out because it's not hooked.

Frank: It's not even in their mouth. It's not really ready to be hooked.

Frank: But as they start to swim away, that tap can get heavier and heavier.

Frank: The heavier you feel something on the end of your rod, like on your line,

Frank: you can then give that, with a low angle with your rod, you can give that pressure

Frank: back, but you can't do it. You can't rush it, right?

Frank: Maybe you have some slack. You have to maybe set the hook a little bit,

Frank: it but lots of times we don't have slack we have tension so less is more don't

Frank: lift the rod let the fish kind of swim away and then kind of give them the wood got.

Marvin: It uh any other tips you're willing to share with our listeners tonight.

Frank: Yeah i mean there's a ton i mean things to avoid um we've talked about it a

Frank: little bit but like avoid the bright lights avoid the bright moon you might

Frank: break that rule and have some success but like typically like time and time

Frank: again we see that's That's a problem.

Frank: Dense fall on the surface is something to avoid. Sometimes you can't see that

Frank: until you turn your light on. It can be problematic.

Frank: I'm not sure why. It might affect their ability to see things close to the surface,

Frank: but the fall there might just affect the way things silhouette.

Frank: It might be a little muddier to them, sort of, as I describe it.

Frank: So maybe they aren't as confident to take that risk to go and eat your fly.

Frank: On the same note, the muddy, colored-up water, not my favorite thing.

Frank: Well you know on the other hand like you know when

Frank: you're out there you know um be willing to experiment i

Frank: kind of alluded to it before but try different things and you

Frank: know there might be something that's specific to your water type like we

Frank: don't really see what they're eating at night they might be eating something that does

Frank: swim quite fast through the shallows and where you're at and maybe a fast presentation

Frank: i'm telling you to go slow but maybe fasting here you know particular river

Frank: might be a good thing so we really don't see everything so don't be afraid afraid

Frank: to try things that are that are a little bit off the off the program and sometimes

Frank: it does uh result in some success for you yeah.

Marvin: And uh is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before i let you go.

Frank: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple little things, like, about the nature of fishing

Frank: at night and, like, certain properties, right?

Frank: A lot of our stuff in Pennsylvania isn't, like, true public land.

Frank: It's, like, private but not private, where, like, the landowners are,

Frank: like, cool with fishing.

Frank: They'll let people fish during the day. They have no problem with it. They won't think twice.

Frank: But maybe that same landowner is not expecting someone to be walking through

Frank: their cornfield at night with a flashlight on, and that might raise some red flags to them.

Frank: So, like, definitely be a little courteous to the situation.

Frank: Situation um you don't want to have run-ins with other

Frank: people at night when you can possibly avoid especially like a

Frank: grumpy landowner or someone who's just like you know

Frank: maybe they're freaked out that someone's poking around their land that night with

Frank: a light on so they might be open during the day but just be

Frank: mindful of that and if you are going to try those places maybe

Frank: don't hoot and holler when you catch a day one or

Frank: like don't shine your light towards people's windows when they're trying

Frank: to sleep you know just courteous things those are something else

Frank: to keep in mind and just so that like you don't lose that opportunity

Frank: because like you know you make someone mad or freak

Frank: somebody out they might say no way no one's fishing here now

Frank: it freaks me out like you don't want to do that you don't lose your lose your

Frank: spot or lose your access so be mindful and respectful of uh landowners that

Frank: are out there and uh you know public water you know like uh state forest land

Frank: or something you can be kind of less concerned with that sort of thing to let

Frank: your guard down but uh certainly if you're like dealing with private property

Frank: not a bad idea to say, hey, say,

Frank: you know, Sarma or whatever, like, do you mind if I, you know,

Frank: there's this water, and I've done that before, and people don't really care.

Frank: They just want to, like, be aware. That's all.

Marvin: Yeah. It's interesting, too, because the wrinkle when you're in a boat is,

Marvin: you know, you sometimes meet some very interesting people in the wee hours of

Marvin: the morning at boat ramps.

Frank: Oh, boy. Yeah, boat ramps, man. That's probably a magnet for the wrong crowd.

Frank: People parking and doing God knows what.

Frank: Yeah, definitely something. I run into it more like when I'm fishing the Latour.

Frank: And, you know, we're close to the PA Turnpike. We're close to Interstate 81.

Frank: We're close to Carlisle. Major hotels all along the Latour.

Frank: Shipping and stuff, like freight kind of stuff coming in and around,

Frank: in and in and out. So, like, you get some characters.

Frank: I've had some odd run-ins. uh one time i had

Frank: a landowner like shining his light at me and thought

Frank: i because he saw me fish he saw me shining my light i was looking for fish and

Frank: you know i went up to him and talked to him because i didn't want to alarm him i

Frank: said hey i'm just fishing like hope it's all cool and he was like yeah well

Frank: right before you came through somebody on the other side was just walking around

Frank: with no light and i thought it was real weird so i was on my guard and i saw

Frank: you and i was like well that wasn't me because i was on the firebank so you

Frank: know that kind of freaked me out because like there was a dude right across

Frank: from i had no idea god knows what he was doing was he

Frank: homeless was he just some dude at the hotel staying there and

Frank: uh uh just walk around who knows

Frank: well i mean you can't begin to guess what people are doing out there at midnight

Frank: or something so yeah be be on the be on your guard and you know be smart you

Frank: know definitely some uh strange situations happen at night whether it's the

Frank: fish or the people or anything that's definitely something to you know think

Frank: about but it keeps it interesting right yeah.

Marvin: Fish with a buddy and carrier bear spray.

Frank: Yeah for the people right yeah yeah and.

Marvin: So frank if someone wanted to book a day or a night on the water with you or

Marvin: follow your fishing adventures where should they go.

Frank: Yeah so you can hit me up on instagram my instagram handle is uh frank fly fishes

Frank: um but then you can also call if you don't have you're not on instagram you

Frank: could call like any of our tco locations i'm down in boiling springs i'm a guide

Frank: there through relentless fly fishing fishing, um,

Frank: mostly I do run like the occasional, like odd trip for state college when they're

Frank: over book. So you could call them and they know me up there too.

Frank: So call one of the TCO shops and ask for me or hit me up directly on social

Frank: and I know I will get it squared away.

Marvin: Uh, very cool. Well, I appreciate you spending some time with me this evening

Marvin: and, uh, helping me as I go more and more down the rat hole about fishing at night for big trout.

Frank: Awesome, man. So it was great fun.

Marvin: Absolutely. Take care.

Frank: Hey man, have a good one.

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