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How to Optimize Your Podcast Editing Workflow, Fire Clients, and Launch New Businesses - PEM0046
Episode 46 • 18th February 2022 • Podcast Editors Mastermind • Bryan Entzminger, Carrie Caulfield, Daniel Abendroth, Jennifer Longworth
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Producing a podcast is a LOT of work, and it can be confusing. Fortunately, there are editors like us who not only take on some of the workload, but also bring our expertise and structure to the process. And as an added benefit, we are always looking for ways to improve what we do, for our benefit and our clients.

We focus on improving our processes, get better at identifying issues, improving client relationships, and more. However, that doesn't mean that every client is a fit for us and sometimes we have to make the tough call - to decide that it's time to part ways with a client.

Of course, even in parting, how we do it matters.

Join us as Mike Wilkerson of EditorCorps.com and VoiceFarmers.com shares how he not only practices these himself, but also helps other editors get their businesses up and running ... in a way that benefits everyone and gets another pro editor out into the wild :)

Listen to Discover

  • Signs that it might be time to part ways
  • Whether it's worth adapting to match a client's processes
  • Why Mike started EditorCorps.com and how it can help podcast editors get started

Links And Resources

About Mike Wilkerson

Mike Wilkerson is a former certified Sign Language Interpreter for the Deaf, then a Marketing Automation Director for a large St. Louis-based Computer company. He now conjures content of all kinds for a growing client listing across the nation. Mike has been hosting, producing, concepting and enhancing podcasts since 2005. While his interests are definitively pop culture-based, the bottom line is: It’s ALL About Perspective. Whether it’s being captured inside of one of Mike’s Podcast Capture Studios (based in the St. Louis area). – Podcasting is Captured Perspective. Mike also runs a Podcast Editing Team & Academy (The Editor Corps over at EditorCorps.Com) and a Voiceover Team (The VoiceFarmers over at VoiceFarmers.Com). If you're looking for lightbulb moments, education and perspective - Mike is the OG Podcaster you'll want to connect with.

Editor

This episode of the Podcast Editors Mastermind was edited by Alejandro Ramirez. You can find him on Facebook if you're interested in talking with him about editing your show.

Be a Guest

If you're a podcast editor, we'd love to see if you'd be a fit for a future episode. Fill out this form to let us know you're interested, and we'll contact you to see if it's a good fit.

Your Yetis Are

About the Podcast Editors Mastermind

The Podcast Editors Mastermind is for professional podcast editors who want to grow their business and get more clients. We’re creating a community of like-minded professionals that are passionate about the art and science of editing podcasts.

Our goal is to help you build your business by providing tools, resources, and support so you can focus on what matters most—your craft. This isn’t just another group where everyone talks about how great they are at podcast editing; we show our work!

Follow or subscribe and take the Podcast Editors Mastermind with you today!




This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy

Transcripts

Daniel Abendroth:

How much is that,

Daniel Abendroth:

um, um,

Daniel Abendroth:

and welcome to the podcast.

Daniel Abendroth:

Editors mastermind the podcast dedicated to the business side of podcasts.

Daniel Abendroth:

And all the things that we don't or don't want to talk about.

Daniel Abendroth:

So let's get this started.

Daniel Abendroth:

My name is Daniel droughts.

Daniel Abendroth:

You can find me at Roth media audio joining me as the hosting, this shindig below me.

Bryan Entzminger:

Wow.

Bryan Entzminger:

I can't even get the timing right tonight.

Bryan Entzminger:

My name is Brian.

Bryan Entzminger:

You can find me@toptieraudio.com.

Daniel Abendroth:

And today we have a wonderful guest.

Daniel Abendroth:

Uh, if you've been in the podcast editors club or around the editing side, Then you definitely know who this person is.

Daniel Abendroth:

We have Mike Wilkerson, who is a former certified sign language interpreter for the deaf that a marketing automation director for a large St.

Daniel Abendroth:

Louis based computer company.

Daniel Abendroth:

He now conjures content of all kinds for growing client listing across the nation.

Daniel Abendroth:

Micah has been hosting, producing and supporting and enhancing podcasts since 2005.

Daniel Abendroth:

Pretty much.

Daniel Abendroth:

This is the beginning of podcasting.

Daniel Abendroth:

Mike also runs podcast editing team and academy, the editor core, which we're definitely going to get into later on and a voiceover team, which can talk about as well.

Daniel Abendroth:

If you're looking for light bulb moments, education, and perspective, Mike is the OJI podcast, or you'll want to connect with.

Daniel Abendroth:

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Daniel Abendroth:

It's great to have you

Mike Wilkerson:

what a pleasure and thank you so much for flushing everyone into my perspective and situation with the intro read.

Mike Wilkerson:

I appreciate that.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah, I think

Bryan Entzminger:

we should just have a moment of silence here for Daniel, because man, that was a lot to read, so good job.

Daniel Abendroth:

Yeah.

Daniel Abendroth:

For somebody that's been in the industry for 16 years, that's a, they're going to have some accomplishments.

Bryan Entzminger:

Yeah.

Bryan Entzminger:

Just a couple

Mike Wilkerson:

of things there, here and there.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I love that we're talking to, and obviously there's going to be other people that listen to this, but I'm glad that we're talking to editors because while we're all we're talking to a podcast editors.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yes.

Mike Wilkerson:

We were doing interviews and editing those interviews a couple of years before podcasting came out.

Mike Wilkerson:

So whenever somebody says, how long have you been editing podcasts?

Mike Wilkerson:

I typically will say something.

Mike Wilkerson:

1718 years and they'll go, wait a minute.

Mike Wilkerson:

The numbers don't work well.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that's why the numbers don't work because we were making podcasts before there was actually something called the podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

That was one of our bread and butters inside of the television review line was to grab people that make the show and bring them on and have an interview.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then dish that out to our audience via our website.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then when podcasting came along, it was, that was the perfect.

Mike Wilkerson:

It was the way to deliver immediately, automatically by just shunting to one source, um, that had a town crier functionality inside of it as well.

Mike Wilkerson:

So podcasting has been very, very good to me.

Mike Wilkerson:

And again, it's a, it's a wonderful symbiotic relationship that I love to foster with.

Mike Wilkerson:

No matter whom we talk to,

Bryan Entzminger:

let's start with that, because you said you've been editing for.

Bryan Entzminger:

18 ish years.

Bryan Entzminger:

We want to talk about workflow.

Bryan Entzminger:

Let's start with not the workflow that you're using, but how has your workflow changed over these last 17

Mike Wilkerson:

years?

Mike Wilkerson:

I would use the word gravity because inevitably and something just came out today.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'll mention it even though I haven't been anything except watch the initial video of it.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's it's podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

Whole podcast was the most recent tool thing that has been introduced into the podcast space.

Mike Wilkerson:

That literally has something called magic dust function inside of it.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I can remember vividly my original co-host and I was saying, okay, it's time to sprinkle the magic dust.

Mike Wilkerson:

I mean, it was funny back then.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's not so funny now because it doesn't instantly take away work from a podcast editor.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's it's never been that way even no matter how automatic the tool has become, there's always going to be a place for a real editor and a real producer and somebody that can help coach and guide people inside a podcasting.

Mike Wilkerson:

When I see something like, see something like podcasts as a, an influencer, as something that has and will have gravity inside the space, it will not replace everything that's available that people traditionally have to go through and work with to get podcasting done.

Mike Wilkerson:

But it's very, very alluring again, as a O G podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

You're looking at that product.

Mike Wilkerson:

There's a whole lot to like there and.

Mike Wilkerson:

With the, the workflow that we're going to be talking about today across a variety of things, whether it's your guys' stuff or mine, there's so much to talk about and learn from, from something like that, as well as the workflows that we talk about, the advent of the things that conjure gravity inside of the podcast editing space are amazing.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, the other one that I remember within the last couple of years is descript.

Mike Wilkerson:

When the script came, everybody had like this thinked or clinch moment, because like, is this it, is it.

Mike Wilkerson:

And the answer is it is absolutely not over descript is one of the samples I would use to explain to people that we're not an endangered species by any stretch.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's a great product with some training and some skillset that's applied.

Mike Wilkerson:

It does a lot of great things, but is it a one-to-one replacement for you having a great podcast editor that maybe is cost-effective or likes to work for free or whatever your solution is?

Mike Wilkerson:

And the answer is absolutely not.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's.

Mike Wilkerson:

I had

Bryan Entzminger:

recently had to pop into the script.

Bryan Entzminger:

I had some audio from a client where I don't know if the microphone setting was wrong or if it was the laptop microphone, the room noise was so bad that using RX, even though I have a reasonable level of skill with that was destroying the voice to the point where I couldn't do that.

Bryan Entzminger:

So I ran it through the magic studio or whatever it is that they call.

Bryan Entzminger:

In the script and I sent it and of course that wasn't great either.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I sent her back two versions and said, okay, this one says cleaned up as I could make it using my normal stuff.

Bryan Entzminger:

This one is cleaned up better.

Bryan Entzminger:

However, you'll notice that the breaths and the acids are all mangled.

Bryan Entzminger:

Now, I don't know how to tell you which one of these is the one to use, but these are the two options I have.

Bryan Entzminger:

So I totally popped in there and used it as part of my

Mike Wilkerson:

work.

Mike Wilkerson:

Again, being able to grab or NAB something or a feature inside of a software and utilize it to whack audio on its head to get manufacturer what you want.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's far more typical.

Mike Wilkerson:

And what I know a lot of podcast editors and podcasters use to get the job done.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's why, when you see something like a podcast where it looks like it's this magic, all in one thing inside of one window and your cell phone, it's very, very interesting.

Mike Wilkerson:

And again, You can taste the mouthwatering moment that people are going to have until it gets used.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then what happens now?

Mike Wilkerson:

And again, disparaged podcasts at all.

Mike Wilkerson:

I haven't used it at all.

Mike Wilkerson:

I all I've seen is that video and it looks great and it looks like it does everything magically, including the magic dust moment.

Mike Wilkerson:

I just know that there have been other products like that, that claim very much the same thing where it's an all-in-one solution and you push buttons and magic happens.

Mike Wilkerson:

And typically that's not what happens at all in this way.

Mike Wilkerson:

You need somebody behind the stack, editing your podcast.

Daniel Abendroth:

Yeah.

Daniel Abendroth:

They're all great tools they can have in your arsenal.

Daniel Abendroth:

But I feel like we're a long way off from being replaceable completely.

Daniel Abendroth:

Now, is there a certain, you know, podcasts there's that will, you know, want to save the money, but they're probably not the kind of clients that we're going to go for.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I think the one-to-one drift there is to jump on the podcast hosting for a moment, the instant you have something that is.

Mike Wilkerson:

Everybody comes out of the woodwork to go and find a way to get to free, no matter how much money is spent, no matter how many speed bumps there might be in the path to jumping on and utilizing something for free, or when you get to utilizing something for free.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then you have the discovery moments inside of something that's free.

Mike Wilkerson:

Every free service quote unquote free service has a speed bump.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's just a matter of you either researching them or discovering them after you start the survey.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then deciding whether or not the speed bumps are going to be an impediment for you using it or not.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's what free services have always been about.

Mike Wilkerson:

And sweat they'll always be,

Bryan Entzminger:

as we think about workflow, we'll definitely want to talk about workflow, but one of the things I'm wondering, because I know Mike you're involved in quite a number of shows all with all the way from concept to audio capture, to post-production.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I think even some of the marketing, like all of that kind of stuff, I'm wondering what are some of the.

Bryan Entzminger:

Let's call him workflow full pause that you occasionally

Mike Wilkerson:

or consistently see the largest one and it is consistent and it is done by just about everybody.

Mike Wilkerson:

Is the front end capture very much like what we're doing tonight, where wouldn't it be great.

Mike Wilkerson:

If when you start a podcast, there was, I don't know, maybe like a test moment just to make sure you've got at least decent sound start.

Mike Wilkerson:

What would something like that look like?

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, it kind of looks like you starting a little bit early during a session.

Mike Wilkerson:

Now having a literal session where everything is not on fire, or there is a giant audience waiting for you to get everything collected and then pushing something through and having a moment to test.

Mike Wilkerson:

What is going on with say the microphones, whether it's in front of Daniel or you or myself, is there room noise that is eventually going to be able to be taken out by, I dunno, a filter or one of the many tools that we've already talked about?

Mike Wilkerson:

Is there a technical problem?

Mike Wilkerson:

So if we went and grabbed our mic boom arm accidentally, or if I was using my hands animatedly as a former sign language interpreter for the deaf, if I whacked my boom arm, is there going to be an issue we'll find out now rather than having to have an issue after it happens?

Mike Wilkerson:

It's kind of like, you don't know what you don't know, and that's why the people that are, in my opinion, really great podcast, producers they'll issue a checklist.

Mike Wilkerson:

There doesn't have to be some monumental checklist, but it's a checklist of the things that you don't know, you don't know.

Mike Wilkerson:

And eventually you do get to know them.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's the, that's the value of having a guide in podcasting?

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah, absolutely.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I would even say that if you're hosting a show and you're also engineering, the second.

Bryan Entzminger:

You don't necessarily have to be transparent with your guests.

Bryan Entzminger:

That you're sound checking them.

Bryan Entzminger:

Right?

Bryan Entzminger:

A lot of times with my first show, I would get people on there and I would say, Hey, we're just going to take a couple minutes to get to know each other, make sure the levels are good.

Bryan Entzminger:

Hey, would you mind just, uh, can you tap your microphone?

Bryan Entzminger:

I just want to make sure like, and you can just kind of walk them through that.

Bryan Entzminger:

They don't even have to know what you're doing, but doing that makes a huge difference.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I know that because I've also not done.

Bryan Entzminger:

And the difference between the two is embarrassing, but

Mike Wilkerson:

it's a monumental, uh, way to overcome speed bumps before you ever have to encounter them.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I agree with you also that the more seamless you can make it, the better.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the things that we do inside of the podcast captures inside of my studios since forever is there's a little bit of an introduction.

Mike Wilkerson:

You go, okay.

Mike Wilkerson:

So today there's going to be the three of us there's there would typically be me, whoever.

Mike Wilkerson:

Sitting in one chair and sitting in another chair, and there's only three people that are going to be hearing this live.

Mike Wilkerson:

So just know that if you accidentally mispronounced something, if you need to re pronounce someone's last name, if there's something that you say that you'd like to remove later, all you got to do is just pause for a moment and then re-engage cool and they'll go, wow.

Mike Wilkerson:

That sounds great.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's awesome.

Mike Wilkerson:

Wow.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's a great safety net or whatever the conversation is going to be.

Mike Wilkerson:

And in having that conversation, believe it.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

Your sound checking them.

Mike Wilkerson:

Now, what I also noticed too is when you ask someone, okay, so we're going to be doing a sound check today.

Mike Wilkerson:

And, uh, would you mind saying a few things, we'll

Bryan Entzminger:

go though, hello, or me

Mike Wilkerson:

check one.

Mike Wilkerson:

Right.

Mike Wilkerson:

And all I want them to do is I want them to talk and more importantly, I want them to talk as they talk where they're actually having a conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

I think that that's probably the most paramount thing that people remember inside of podcasting is that the podcast is supposed to be the capturing of a conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

The capturing your perspective is how I describe podcasting.

Mike Wilkerson:

Podcasting is captured perspective.

Mike Wilkerson:

And when you can have a legitimate, real conversation with somebody about whatever it is, whatever the topic is, people are going to be engaged no matter what it is, but it's gotta be that legitimate conversation as opposed to the, oh, now please read this awesome paragraph.

Mike Wilkerson:

That doesn't sound anything like you real quick.

Mike Wilkerson:

Okay.

Mike Wilkerson:

Nobody's going to be interested in anything.

Daniel Abendroth:

Yeah.

Daniel Abendroth:

I know, like whenever I hear like, behind the scenes of like, you know, bigger Purdue production companies, it's always like, tell me what you have a breakfast or some kind of like casual thing that they can talk about for awhile.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

Pod decks.

Bryan Entzminger:

That's what they're for.

Daniel Abendroth:

Yeah.

Daniel Abendroth:

Perfect.

Daniel Abendroth:

All right.

Daniel Abendroth:

So what do you do from then, um, like tell us more about what your workflow is.

Daniel Abendroth:

Clean

Mike Wilkerson:

capture is where I'll start, regardless of whether it's a remote client with a re utilizing a tool to get remote client, or if they're sitting across me from the state.

Mike Wilkerson:

We always want to get that clean, the clean content.

Mike Wilkerson:

First, the second thing is we're just going to record it in the case, in the studio here, we're recording directly to an H six.

Mike Wilkerson:

I've used an H six for the last seven years of podcast capture, whether it be inside this micro studio in lake St.

Mike Wilkerson:

Louis or my downtown St.

Mike Wilkerson:

Louis studio or over at my HQ studio in St.

Mike Wilkerson:

Charles.

Mike Wilkerson:

They all have used H sixes, the front end of our HQ studio.

Mike Wilkerson:

We were actually capturing through a mixer into a PC from microphones that were just tethered, like they are inside of this small studio.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that was great.

Mike Wilkerson:

What you instantly noticed is that it's so much easier.

Mike Wilkerson:

If you don't have to involve a whole bunch of stuff, you can just capture directly from microphones to say an age six again, it's about making fewer speed bumps to capture the current.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then utilizing your skillsets and tools to be able to manipulate the file into whatever it is you want.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's what we found a tremendous value inside of the H six for a long, long time or the age six was also what I was using a side of my podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

The podcast bug is in 1974 custom super beetle with a recording studio built into the front of it.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's awesome.

Bryan Entzminger:

It really is.

Bryan Entzminger:

Have you ever seen

Daniel Abendroth:

the pictures of it?

Daniel Abendroth:

I feel like I've seen

Mike Wilkerson:

it.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's when it really starts to matter as well, because sure.

Mike Wilkerson:

I, and I have, I've had a full mixer with the wires and everything runs through the car.

Mike Wilkerson:

I can do that.

Mike Wilkerson:

In fact, what I do is I, I still take the mixer that has full lines run into it and sh and shove that in the trunk that's in the.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'll shove it in there and the microphones are illuminated and there's boom, arms, and it's awesome.

Mike Wilkerson:

But the mixer is not running.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's actually jacking into an H six because it's that easy.

Mike Wilkerson:

You push a record button, you do a sound check.

Mike Wilkerson:

You make sure everything's solid.

Mike Wilkerson:

Everybody speaks, they speak, they have their interview.

Mike Wilkerson:

They capture the voiceovers, whatever it is.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then you stop the recording and they leave.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then you smile and you say next, please.

Mike Wilkerson:

Again, it's about making the fewest speed bumps.

Mike Wilkerson:

You can possible with whatever your skill sets are.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's what this is about

Daniel Abendroth:

and your business.

Daniel Abendroth:

Do you only work on audio that you record or do you have clients send you audio?

Daniel Abendroth:

All of it.

Daniel Abendroth:

So how do you work with your clients to ensure that they're able to capture properly?

Daniel Abendroth:

We

Mike Wilkerson:

always get a sample of what we're going to work on one of the, uh, again, because we're talking to podcast editors, this is something else that I totally encourage.

Mike Wilkerson:

Get 15 minutes of whomever you're talking to his program.

Mike Wilkerson:

Just say, I'll tell you what, we'll do 15 minutes for free do that.

Mike Wilkerson:

Because in addition to giving you some really great skillset training, it's going to let you get different ice cream flavors of the audio that's available from a wide variety of people from every walk of life you can make.

Mike Wilkerson:

I have talked to and worked with everybody.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's got ultra crappo audio to people that have their own studio at home where it sounds like something that's already off NPR and they just need somebody to, to weave it all together and whatever they want to do.

Mike Wilkerson:

And they just don't have the time to do it.

Mike Wilkerson:

So again, I work with a variety of people, especially inside of the other core team where it's people off the street where, or their podcast editor is quit or they've disappeared, or they've ghosted.

Mike Wilkerson:

All the way to finding us on our website, which is over an editor, core.com contacting us, and then just editing their podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

But we always give them that 15 minutes for very, because it's the, it's the theater, it's the instant lead generation, because if you can satisfy one podcaster, the chances are likely that they'll share that they found somebody that can edit their podcast and bring more business.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's how

Daniel Abendroth:

I've gotten.

Daniel Abendroth:

Like 90% of my clients is word of

Mike Wilkerson:

mouth.

Mike Wilkerson:

Totally.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the things that, especially in sales and marketing, that I've noticed that far too many businesses don't take care of.

Mike Wilkerson:

We were going to talk about building business later, but this is a good place for it.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the most important things is remembering to stoke quote old customers because the old customers, if they've been a customer of yours, especially for a long period of time, over a period of time buying from you or getting services from me for a long period of time, they're in your bag.

Mike Wilkerson:

Utilize them as a tentacle to go get more business.

Mike Wilkerson:

Don't just leave those people there, connect with them, tap them occasionally on the shoulder, let them know.

Mike Wilkerson:

Hey, I just wanted to see how you're doing.

Mike Wilkerson:

Are you working on anything new?

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, really interesting.

Mike Wilkerson:

Hey, you know, anybody else's doing a podcast, you know, have a conversation with them.

Mike Wilkerson:

And when you start issuing those conversations, the conversations instantly can turn into new business, especially in the podcast, editing realm.

Bryan Entzminger:

One of the questions I have about.

Bryan Entzminger:

Is how much of your workflow is something that's what I would call proprietary or your thing that you bring to the table versus a client or a customer that already has some workflow that you're fitting into.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, having 16 years of podcast content with rotatable commercials, new intros, front end bumpers for either the two guys talking podcast network or something else that I'm working with, that's called the podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

Being able to shunt in and manipulate all of those things is what I throw to the editor core team members.

Mike Wilkerson:

So the answer is that is a lion's share of the work that we have.

Mike Wilkerson:

But the growing number is just people right off the street that are looking for someone, typically someone else to edit their podcasts because whomever they're using, or one of their podcasts is far more.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's just not able to step up and do something consistently.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so we're jumping in out, I guess, where I

Bryan Entzminger:

was thinking, it was like, when I think about workflow, I have some processes that I use, but I do have a couple of clients that I interface with where I'm actually fitting into a larger process.

Bryan Entzminger:

And so it changes how I do that.

Bryan Entzminger:

I'm wondering like, is that something that you do as well?

Bryan Entzminger:

Or if you want to work with Mike, this is how we do it.

Bryan Entzminger:

Either we capture it or you capture it and everything else goes like

Mike Wilkerson:

this.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'm always willing to hear how somebody has their existing work.

Mike Wilkerson:

What I have started using over the course of the last five and a half years is we're using a, uh, essentially a behind the scenes checklist, a series of boards.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, we just happened to be using a sauna.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's essentially a project management system that if you're not using this as a podcast editor, especially with clients, it can be any system.

Mike Wilkerson:

There are a number of other ones.

Mike Wilkerson:

I click up as one that Brian and I happen to be using on.

Mike Wilkerson:

Where it's very similar to us on it.

Mike Wilkerson:

If you're not utilizing something like this to not only monitor, but share your progress inside of stuff, you really need to be.

Mike Wilkerson:

And it's not so that the client can watch over your shoulder so that it can serve as a checklist for you.

Mike Wilkerson:

But then also making sure that responsibilities both on your end and your customer's end are met appropriately and not always in the hurry up often.

Mike Wilkerson:

For those of you that are charging more money for hurry up offense mode.

Mike Wilkerson:

You probably don't mind it, but man, I'll tell you when that's all it is every single time nobody likes that.

Bryan Entzminger:

One thing I'd like to add to that checklist thing is those checklists don't have to be written in stone.

Bryan Entzminger:

One thing that's happened to me is if, if I have a customer that comes back to me with something that I missed twice, there becomes a new thing on the checklist.

Bryan Entzminger:

One of them was.

Bryan Entzminger:

Uh, file got uploaded to the wrong Dropbox folder.

Bryan Entzminger:

Well, that happens twice.

Bryan Entzminger:

All of a sudden the next thing is check the Dropbox folder to make sure it's uploaded to the right one problem solved.

Bryan Entzminger:

I haven't had that issue since

Mike Wilkerson:

then.

Mike Wilkerson:

I love that.

Mike Wilkerson:

The other thing that those project management things will do is they'll actually tell you if somebody is paying attention or not, where typically, although that's changing too inside of the email representation, you don't actually know all the time.

Mike Wilkerson:

If somebody has seen or even read an email that you'll send out.

Mike Wilkerson:

We're typically inside of the project management stuffs.

Mike Wilkerson:

It'll actually tell you when somebody has gone to look at something when, and I appreciate that, even if it's just an eyeball and I know that you've seen it well, check I'm good with that.

Mike Wilkerson:

It also is a mandate, by the way, when we start working inside of podcast editing circle, if they are not willing to work inside of a project management system, then typically I don't work with them.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's not an always thing, especially if we're doing something small or maybe just a voiceover.

Mike Wilkerson:

But if we're getting into something, that's an ongoing project, it is a requirement.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I don't do that because I want to make them angry.

Mike Wilkerson:

I do that because I want to see their commitment and I want them to participate.

Daniel Abendroth:

So speaking practically, I guess this kind of, for both of you, so check this, like built into your project management system, or how do you do that?

Daniel Abendroth:

I'm

Mike Wilkerson:

sorry, what was that?

Daniel Abendroth:

The checklist.

Daniel Abendroth:

So like Brian was saying like, you know, if he meant, you know, upload to the wrong Dropbox now on your checklist is checking that Dropbox folder.

Daniel Abendroth:

Is that something that you have, like an a or an click up, or is that like a physical clipboard?

Daniel Abendroth:

You have marketing's off with a pen and

Mike Wilkerson:

paper.

Mike Wilkerson:

The well inside of the website is we've got the website and via the website, they actually submit whatever the program is going to be.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then they just point wherever.

Mike Wilkerson:

And inside the form contents that come through our website, you can click on the link and go to wherever they've uploaded, whatever.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's not every client, but especially the ones through the website.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's how that works.

Mike Wilkerson:

So if we know that they've uploaded X file to Dropbox file, wherever they loaded it, all we've got to do is click on the link that they submit.

Mike Wilkerson:

What that does is it instantly takes the responsibility of making sure that the link to the download actually works, which depending on the editor is a giant speed bumps sometimes.

Mike Wilkerson:

If somebody drops the link and says, uh, yeah, I'm going on vacation.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'll be back in four days.

Mike Wilkerson:

Okay.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, if the link doesn't work and you're unavailable because you're on vacation.

Mike Wilkerson:

So do we just sit with our hands in our pocket for four days when you get the link from somebody it's then on them and we'll go to where they said or not, but at least it's on them, as opposed to you trying to go to find something in that.

Bryan Entzminger:

Yeah, for me, it's in the software.

Bryan Entzminger:

So I have what in a sauna or Trello would be cards.

Bryan Entzminger:

They call it something different and click up.

Bryan Entzminger:

That's a template.

Bryan Entzminger:

And every time I get a new episode, either through automation or creating one, I just, it's a copy of the template.

Bryan Entzminger:

That includes the checklist for me.

Bryan Entzminger:

And then if I've got any subs working on something, then when I create their sub task, I will add the checklist for that.

Bryan Entzminger:

And it's like for the audio editor is really tough stuff.

Bryan Entzminger:

Edit the audio mark, anything that needs to be fixed, that isn't the editing part of the audio.

Bryan Entzminger:

Send it back to me, tag me.

Bryan Entzminger:

So I know it's done.

Bryan Entzminger:

Like it's that kind of stuff, but it's trying to.

Bryan Entzminger:

Plug the holes that can happen if they upload the file, but they don't tag me as possible that I would miss the notification that there's a new file added.

Bryan Entzminger:

So it's doubling up the probability that I'll notice it before it's late.

Bryan Entzminger:

Right.

Bryan Entzminger:

That kind of thing.

Bryan Entzminger:

And then it's really not super involved.

Bryan Entzminger:

It's just that kind of thing.

Bryan Entzminger:

And you can go nuts.

Bryan Entzminger:

I mean, you know, me, I over-engineered stuff.

Bryan Entzminger:

So mine's probably a little bit over engineered, but it

Mike Wilkerson:

is what it is.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

There's a, there's a client that I work with.

Mike Wilkerson:

Then he's been one of my best clients.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's Dr.

Mike Wilkerson:

Mark, who has the pediatric sports medicine.

Mike Wilkerson:

And again, podcasting is all about perspective and really niche perspective.

Mike Wilkerson:

The faster you can get into a niche, the faster you, my opinion, you can grow an audience and build a really good solid promotional set for it.

Mike Wilkerson:

What mark does is he happened to come in right at the cusp of COVID.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so all of this great knowledge and, um, uh, focus and emphasis that so many companies began putting on remote capture tools was really, really good.

Mike Wilkerson:

Because he didn't have to come in here to the studio, he could capture whatever you needed to inside of the conference room inside of his doctor's office.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then when he uploads a file, he just drops me a note inside of the sauna that says uploaded the most recent file.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let me know if you have any questions and the, uh, again, the, the way that the Asana structures that it's essentially a board, there is a line of information and a dialogue between Dr.

Mike Wilkerson:

Mark and I, so that we both know what's going on.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, we respond if we either need to, or want to.

Mike Wilkerson:

And it's even got just where there's this little where you can click a little thumb and then it turns blue to note that, oh, I've seen that.

Mike Wilkerson:

And those are the things that I appreciate because it, it takes seconds, but it is something that's gotta be a trainable teachable moment inside of a moment between someone who's guiding a podcaster and the podcast or themselves, the question you had about whatever automation there is inside of a checklist for what.

Mike Wilkerson:

The answer is yes, a lot of the project management softwares.

Mike Wilkerson:

They have that again, the thumb thing is just something that's built into the system and it instantly helps serve the project where if you didn't have something like that, you have to rely on email.

Mike Wilkerson:

And it's not that I'm not a fan of email.

Mike Wilkerson:

In fact, I'm a giant proponent of email, but for something like project management, I do want that just quick check.

Mike Wilkerson:

I don't need to have an exhaustive dialogue or a multithread dialogue about whether the file's been loaded.

Mike Wilkerson:

I just need to know if it's there.

Daniel Abendroth:

Brian.

Daniel Abendroth:

Did you have something?

Bryan Entzminger:

I don't remember.

Bryan Entzminger:

Okay.

Bryan Entzminger:

That's how I roll.

Bryan Entzminger:

Perfect.

Bryan Entzminger:

I was listening, not planning my next talk.

Bryan Entzminger:

I don't know what,

Daniel Abendroth:

that's my problem too.

Daniel Abendroth:

And then I'm lost.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

So we've talked about, uh, the different kinds of files that are submitted.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, do we have somebody just off the street?

Mike Wilkerson:

That's got this goonie wave file.

Mike Wilkerson:

That sounds terrible.

Mike Wilkerson:

Absolutely.

Mike Wilkerson:

And as long as they're willing to work or at least send me the first 15 minutes and we'll do that for.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, because I can then either throw that to my editor core people, or I can at least give it a listen.

Mike Wilkerson:

And typically that's what I'll do because then I know which of the editor quarter send to each of them have their own little peccadilloes and attitudes and personalities, just like everybody else inside of planet earth.

Mike Wilkerson:

Again, it's about, um, being the, the dealer of the cards to the people that are on the.

Daniel Abendroth:

Well, that's awesome.

Daniel Abendroth:

So now we're going to move on to something less fun, but I think that as an editor, like it's a skill set you need to have, and that is firing clients for you.

Daniel Abendroth:

What are some times that.

Daniel Abendroth:

About time to let somebody go.

Mike Wilkerson:

It was something I also want to just put an overarching on this topic.

Mike Wilkerson:

Is that whenever you fire somebody, typically, that sounds like a bad thing.

Mike Wilkerson:

I got to tell you.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's not, it's not because I love me firing some people who want warmed up, watch me, watch me chop heads off.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's not what I'm talking about.

Mike Wilkerson:

What I am talking about is that very often, especially inside of the podcast editor realm, when you have to fire a customer, it's because something has become intolerant.

Mike Wilkerson:

There's something there's a hitch in the step.

Mike Wilkerson:

There is a burning your saddle.

Mike Wilkerson:

There is something that is causing yet another speed bump.

Mike Wilkerson:

And very often it's an ongoing speed bump.

Mike Wilkerson:

It doesn't just impact the relationship with that client.

Mike Wilkerson:

It begins impacting the relationship between your, that client and your other clients or the people inside of your workforce or worse yet.

Mike Wilkerson:

All of it.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that's why, especially as you start, it's important to remove.

Mike Wilkerson:

When you start to recognize that there are speed bumps, you need to address the speed bumps.

Mike Wilkerson:

It doesn't mean, and it doesn't give you license to be an asset to people, but it does mean that you have to be assertive as somebody that is a professional, whatever you're doing so that you can go in and say, Hey, I just wanted to mention something quick.

Mike Wilkerson:

It looks like this file upload it's in the wrong directory again.

Mike Wilkerson:

Could you make sure that that's cool and that's the right if it happens a couple of times, I mean, even Brian's talking about the directories being inadvertently wrong.

Mike Wilkerson:

It happens a couple of times, I get it when it starts happening and then it starts impacting a schedule or your ability to grab the file and jump into an edit schedule.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then that's impacting the schedule you have with other clients.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then you got to contact your boss@theeditorcore.com and say, Hey boss, I'm not going to be able to finish these three jobs because of Sally over in podcast X, because well, she screwed it up again.

Mike Wilkerson:

You have to be willing to go to the well and say.

Mike Wilkerson:

This isn't manageable anymore.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then you have to decide is the money you were getting worth it or is it not worth it?

Mike Wilkerson:

And all you gotta do is start counting speed bumps and the cracks and relationships.

Mike Wilkerson:

And as soon as you start taking inventory of all those things, you need to be able to cut the tether, the cords gotta be cut, or it'll end up around your neck.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'm

Daniel Abendroth:

dealing with that right now.

Daniel Abendroth:

Like it's I love the show and I love like what they're doing.

Daniel Abendroth:

I like the purpose behind it.

Daniel Abendroth:

But they're an older client that we underquoted, and now it came to the point where like the amount of work we're putting into it, doesn't mesh up with the amount we're charging for

Mike Wilkerson:

it.

Mike Wilkerson:

That you mentioned that because I think that that hits one of the pinnacle moments inside of just about what I hope is every podcast editors situation, where when you start, you're obviously going to be charging less money because you don't know anything.

Mike Wilkerson:

There've been several conversations I've had in just the last week.

Mike Wilkerson:

In fact, I think Brian and I just talked about it in another program where we're talking about the value of the work that you do, and you must value your own work because if you don't value your own work, who is, and that spills directly into the relationship that I'm talking about, when you start to see the cracks or it starts to get stretched far to.

Mike Wilkerson:

You must be willing to step into the pocket and say, we need to do something different here.

Mike Wilkerson:

And whether it's you need to cut the cord or give them a good solid ultimatum, or look, this, this cannot happen again.

Mike Wilkerson:

You must do that regardless of how much money is being thrown into your coffer, because it's going to impact other things that are going to prevent you from making

Daniel Abendroth:

money.

Daniel Abendroth:

And one thing about undercharging is even though, like, I love this show.

Daniel Abendroth:

When I go and put in all this effort and it's like, I see that invoice.

Daniel Abendroth:

It's just, there's like a bitterness.

Daniel Abendroth:

That's going to bleed into our relationship.

Daniel Abendroth:

So like, I don't want to sound like, it's just like, money-grubbing, it's like, I just want to make as much money as possible.

Daniel Abendroth:

Like there is a correlation of like, I know how much I'm worth and it's more than what I'm getting.

Daniel Abendroth:

It's honestly like making me a worse editor because I care less about their show because of how much I dread working on it, knowing there's that imbalance.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

And imbalance is another killer inside of podcast editing.

Mike Wilkerson:

I know everybody that's listening and likely anybody that will listen knows what balance is when you're in the groove, you're running through the editing stack.

Mike Wilkerson:

You're looking at the waves and man, this is awesome.

Mike Wilkerson:

Edit until it's not.

Mike Wilkerson:

And nobody likes that moment, whether it's they, they had to cough or they got up to go to the bathroom or that phone ring or whatever it is.

Mike Wilkerson:

Nobody likes the hitch in the step.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that's exactly what we're talking about with firing clients is the identification step of recognizing that there is a problem and then immediately addressing it with the client.

Mike Wilkerson:

Doesn't need to be licensed or a reason to where to rail on people, but it is where you do need to step into the pocket and assert yourself, especially as a podcast editor.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the things I try to

Bryan Entzminger:

think about in the types of circumstances we've been talking about.

Bryan Entzminger:

The fine line between being flexible and resilient as compared to enduring chaos.

Bryan Entzminger:

Right?

Bryan Entzminger:

Because as I think about trying to bring more people into my business to provide a certain amount of stability for both me and for my clients in order for my, my team to be resilient and have some kind of reserve when flexibility is required, we can't live in a time of consistent chaos.

Bryan Entzminger:

And so I'm always going over.

Bryan Entzminger:

Is the special request from this client.

Bryan Entzminger:

Something that will allow us to develop new skills and develop a little bit of that resilience, or is this just going to create chaos?

Bryan Entzminger:

And I had one, a couple of weeks ago where I was kind of on the bubble about whether or not I was going to keep this client because his process is that different from the other stuff that we're working on.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I sat down with him and because we'd been doing something, he said, wait a minute.

Bryan Entzminger:

That's not what I want.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I'm like, well, we've been doing this for like six years.

Bryan Entzminger:

He said just this.

Bryan Entzminger:

And so I sat down with him and he's like, yeah, totally.

Bryan Entzminger:

I was totally giving you mixed messages.

Bryan Entzminger:

I was saying, Hey, do this.

Bryan Entzminger:

Oh wait, why did you do that this way?

Bryan Entzminger:

So we had that kind of, I don't want to call it a come to Jesus meeting cause that kind of gives it a connotation.

Bryan Entzminger:

But we had that, that meeting.

Bryan Entzminger:

It was a very friendly meeting where I actually ended up walking away with more business from him because we had the conversation and he was able to address some things on the backend of his process that were creating some stress for him.

Bryan Entzminger:

My team and I can pick up because it's exactly what we do.

Bryan Entzminger:

So it was, it was a perfect conversation.

Bryan Entzminger:

It will require us to be flexible, which I'm fine with, but what it won't be is

Mike Wilkerson:

continued chaos.

Mike Wilkerson:

The most important part there, something that glom onto.

Mike Wilkerson:

And again, I love to allude to feature films and, and pop culture, uh, recently inside the vein of star wars since having the book of Boba Fett on Disney plus, which you can go and check out over@disneyplus.com there, there was a, there was a moment paid promotion.

Mike Wilkerson:

There was a moment where there was a series of very well done gunfighter moments.

Mike Wilkerson:

And what I always tell people whenever they talk about gunfighter moments is that remember inside of gunfighter mode, No one has to die.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's about the conversation that's had between two people, regardless of who they are, whether they have guns on them or not addresses Brian's situation perfectly where yes, absolutely could have been the guillotine moment where you're leading someone up to the, up the stairs to put their neck on the inside the guillotine and okay.

Mike Wilkerson:

It sounded chop, chop, chop.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yes, absolutely.

Mike Wilkerson:

But wouldn't it be cool if you could just have a conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

Where everybody gets on the same plane, and then you continue the relationship.

Mike Wilkerson:

You continue to make money.

Mike Wilkerson:

The customer gets to make the, to get the content you get to then either build their podcasts and issue it and publish it or whatever your role is inside of it.

Mike Wilkerson:

Or you can just get the hand it off and then wait for the next one.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, that's gotta be necessitated with a conversation, not pulling your firearm and blowing their head off.

Mike Wilkerson:

Right?

Bryan Entzminger:

Yeah.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I think that leads into one of the questions that Daniel and I had because we've kind of prepared for this.

Bryan Entzminger:

And Daniel had written some stuff.

Bryan Entzminger:

Talked about not blowing their head off.

Bryan Entzminger:

So let's talk about when you let a client go, Mike, what does that process look like?

Bryan Entzminger:

What do you do to make sure you keep them whole, what do you not do?

Bryan Entzminger:

And what do you do only if you feel like it?

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, again, the value of the project management system and my love of checklists is that I always make a good, solid checklist of the things that are bugging me.

Mike Wilkerson:

I don't typically share that vein of the project with the client directly.

Mike Wilkerson:

I have a conversation with them and I run them through.

Mike Wilkerson:

I always try to also have the conversation in person.

Mike Wilkerson:

Now that changes drastically over the course of the last couple of years.

Mike Wilkerson:

But I have to tell you if you have the opportunity and for those of you watching the video feed, there is something to looking someone in the eye and having a conversation versus you running through a checklist of what's wrong with them.

Mike Wilkerson:

I can't tell you how much more valuable it is to look someone in the eye and have a conversation about things that are not.

Mike Wilkerson:

Because reading an email like that is an almost instant guillotine moment where someone's head gets blown off.

Mike Wilkerson:

Whether it's they just go, look, I can't do this.

Mike Wilkerson:

Or you, look, you say, look, I can't do this because you lose all context of what's going on inside the conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

Especially when it's email.

Mike Wilkerson:

I know that there are many people inside of the podcast space.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, one that comes to mind instantly where a host quits via text.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I can't think of the, uh, a colder moment to have inside of the vain of a relationship of a podcaster, because what was that?

Mike Wilkerson:

And the answer is that it was, uh, a very cold, meaningless non-conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

Where things get decided, and it's, it's dire where you just go, sorry, I'm out.

Mike Wilkerson:

And you're not supposed to pull the rip cord on people over a text, right?

Mike Wilkerson:

Anything that fosters the conversation and helps you all try to get on a common level is where everybody should go first, unless it is absolutely untenable.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let's talk about a couple of situations that are completely untenable, giving ongoing files that are worthless, where trains going by or.

Mike Wilkerson:

You continue to forget.

Mike Wilkerson:

Earbuds have been wonderful, especially like these re kind of ear buds that I'm using, which you can find out more about overbreak conduct com.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's awesome.

Mike Wilkerson:

What wasn't awesome is utilizing wired earbuds, which I'm looking at the window here.

Mike Wilkerson:

Do we have any wired earbuds?

Mike Wilkerson:

Okay.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's awesome.

Mike Wilkerson:

Having them continually rub on a lapel or on your Juul.

Mike Wilkerson:

Or whatever guidance you're trying to issue to someone so that the audio is not tenable, especially to a new listener and giving, repeated remarks on something like that.

Mike Wilkerson:

That is a doomsday moment for me.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'm not sharing the betterment of the audio because I'm because it's Thursday and the three of us are talking about things that are kind of boy that bugs me.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'm sharing them because they need to disappear.

Mike Wilkerson:

Because it will instantly repel listers based on my experience and my know-how inside of podcasting.

Mike Wilkerson:

And when people don't listen to things like that, that is a guillotine moment if they don't change their behavior.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so again, it's about the conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's about understanding what the expectations are and then the subsequent behavior afterwards.

Mike Wilkerson:

Now that being said it's, it sounded incredibly calm.

Mike Wilkerson:

Everyone knows that when those moments come along, it's likely not that calm, but you must try to reserve yourself and breathe because if you don't instantly turns into something ugly and in the vein of podcasts, edited them.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the things to remember is that this is a very small community, even though we see something crazy, like Steve Stuart's podcast editors club, that's got 800,000 million people.

Mike Wilkerson:

This is a very small community and I've already had the, the case where say a podcast, or we'll go to podcast editor X.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'm not so interested in their pricing.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, podcasts editor H decided to take on that project.

Mike Wilkerson:

Unfortunately, they too thought that podcaster X was an idiot.

Mike Wilkerson:

Again, it's where the culmination of either the podcasters or the podcast editors.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's not that large.

Mike Wilkerson:

And it will eventually trickle down.

Mike Wilkerson:

So it's important to establish not only who you are, but what your business practices are.

Mike Wilkerson:

Frankly.

Mike Wilkerson:

I think that too many podcasts editors don't actually think about business practices, which kind of leads us into our third point.

Mike Wilkerson:

Whenever we get to,

Daniel Abendroth:

I do want to add real quick to that.

Daniel Abendroth:

Like if you do let a client go like to be professional about it, just cause like what you're saying at the beginning of the show, I'm like, those relationships are huge.

Daniel Abendroth:

And so if you leave on a good note, Then who knows down the line, maybe things get cleared out.

Daniel Abendroth:

They have a bigger budget or they know somebody who they can refer to you.

Daniel Abendroth:

So you never want to burn bridges.

Daniel Abendroth:

They don't need

Mike Wilkerson:

yeah.

Mike Wilkerson:

Something in the vein of burning bridges that I wanted to mention also is that, remember that even if after you finish a relationship with somebody and let's say it didn't go, well, you have to remember that at some point, if you did, especially a long running program.

Mike Wilkerson:

There's a huge chance that someone will say, Hey, so who do you, who have you worked with?

Mike Wilkerson:

And if it was a long project or a prolific project, which has happened to me where it was a sponsored project, it was a prolific project between two professionals generating content to foster, both of their professionalisms.

Mike Wilkerson:

And when someone says, Hey, can I reach out to X person to see what their relationship was with you?

Mike Wilkerson:

The answer you should be willing to say is absolutely go for it.

Mike Wilkerson:

And if you.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's not on your client, that's on you.

Mike Wilkerson:

And a lot of people forget that to just go back to what you'd said, burning bridges helps nobody.

Mike Wilkerson:

So don't burn bridges.

Mike Wilkerson:

As

Bryan Entzminger:

we get to the part about business practices.

Bryan Entzminger:

One of the things that I've found that unintentionally set me apart was that I sent my clients proposals and contracts, just sort of that basic business practice.

Bryan Entzminger:

And it doesn't have to be called a country.

Bryan Entzminger:

But it does need to be something that says, this is what I'm going to do.

Bryan Entzminger:

This is what you're going to do.

Bryan Entzminger:

This is how we're going to exchange money and work together.

Bryan Entzminger:

And this is when it's over, or this is how we plan to renew it in the future.

Bryan Entzminger:

I had one this week where I'd worked on a contract with somebody last year and actually no work ever came from it.

Bryan Entzminger:

So I waited until my year was up and it just send them a nice note and said, Hey, this contract was set up to start auto-renewing after the first.

Bryan Entzminger:

I'm just sending you a note to let you know that I'm not going to be renewing it because we haven't done anything under this contract.

Bryan Entzminger:

If you want to work together in the future, I'm glad to have that conversation, but I just don't want to have an open piece of paper out there committing me to have capacity for something that might never come through.

Mike Wilkerson:

The other thing that that does is it also makes sure that there is an end to whatever your agreement was.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the things, especially inside of business practices, especially for podcasts editors is to have some formal review.

Mike Wilkerson:

A review of your work.

Mike Wilkerson:

At some point during the relationship, you have to be able to go to the customer and go, so how am I doing or what you've seen?

Mike Wilkerson:

It sounds like you're happy.

Mike Wilkerson:

I didn't see anything in the email.

Mike Wilkerson:

And, you know, I was curious, is there anything that could be doing differently with the relationship that we have or inside of your program, and then just shut up and listen.

Mike Wilkerson:

And don't take what is set back to you.

Mike Wilkerson:

If, if it does sound prickly, pointy just listened to it.

Mike Wilkerson:

Many of the pieces inside of especially constructive criticism will come and can be totally evolved into what you're doing inside of the work, likely spill into some other project.

Mike Wilkerson:

A lot of the times inside of projects, people won't realize that the prickly pear moments are actually occurring because there's never a review.

Mike Wilkerson:

Especially when I work with podcasters, guiding them every three months, there is that much.

Mike Wilkerson:

I literally asked them, what is it you like and what don't you like?

Mike Wilkerson:

How could we change what we're doing here to make either the relationship feel better for you or to make it more efficient for you?

Mike Wilkerson:

Because what that is, that's almost the ask for additional services.

Mike Wilkerson:

And you want to be asking your customers, what else can I do for you regularly?

Mike Wilkerson:

Because that means to change more money for you.

Mike Wilkerson:

One of the things that we see inside of it, it's not just, um, many of the prolific podcast, editor groups, it's every business group that I've ever been in.

Mike Wilkerson:

You know, how can I make some more money?

Mike Wilkerson:

How do I find clients?

Mike Wilkerson:

Have you gone back to talk to your existing clients?

Mike Wilkerson:

Oh, you have.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, how many existing clients you have, you know, I've got about 10 really?

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, what if each one of them gave you a couple of extra services or they had another program idea, or they had a friend that wants to start a podcast, but they've been sitting on the idea for months.

Mike Wilkerson:

Maybe you can help them.

Mike Wilkerson:

Okay.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, none of that's going to happen if you don't have the conversation.

Daniel Abendroth:

That's what I do.

Daniel Abendroth:

Every three months, I reach out to my clients being like, Hey, let's have one.

Daniel Abendroth:

The main reason is I don't want to be the ghost at the end of an email chain.

Daniel Abendroth:

I want to be like a real person and build that relationship, but it also gives a opportunity for me to like, sit down, go over that checklist timely of like, here's some things we can do to improve the show, a chance to list and what can we do better?

Daniel Abendroth:

And then also listen to what their pain points are and see if we have a service that we can offer to fill that.

Daniel Abendroth:

So it makes them happy.

Daniel Abendroth:

We get more.

Mike Wilkerson:

Win-win yeah, one of the pieces of feedback I wanted to talk about too, anytime that you've got a feedback loop someplace, it's important to know that sometimes the feedback that you give is not going to be given to the podcasters.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let me give you a sample for the customers that just come in and say, Hey man, I need this podcast edited by X.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, how much is it going to cost?

Mike Wilkerson:

We'll give them a rate.

Mike Wilkerson:

Fine.

Mike Wilkerson:

And we do that.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's what.

Mike Wilkerson:

During that we're capturing the shownotes, whether they want shownotes captured or not, because it gives the staff, the training of capturing Charlotte's off of a program.

Mike Wilkerson:

And what we also do is if there's something in the audio that needs to be addressed, like if someone has the microphone literally in their mouth while they're talking, or if they like to have a lozenge in their mouth while they're talking, or any of the other thousand different colloquialisms that the three of us can talk about inside of this program, all of those things.

Mike Wilkerson:

But just remember that, just because you mentioned them, if you're sending that back to someone that's in the middle, it doesn't mean that the person in the middle is going to be giving that feedback to whomever was doing it.

Mike Wilkerson:

That was one of the largest road problems that what I would consider very few problems I've had over the years.

Mike Wilkerson:

That was one of the big ones.

Mike Wilkerson:

Cause originally I, I kind of took that as an offense.

Mike Wilkerson:

Like, look, they're still doing it.

Mike Wilkerson:

We're in the eighth or ninth program of us telling them that there's a loss engine, this dude's mouth.

Mike Wilkerson:

And could he not have it of.

Mike Wilkerson:

At some point, you just have to go look, are you still willing to edit the program with that in there or not?

Mike Wilkerson:

And of course the answer was, yes, we'll, we'll take your money and edit the program and we're just going to deal with the lozenge, but it's something that you've got to address.

Mike Wilkerson:

And just remember though, you addressing it doesn't mean that it's instantly or ever going to change.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I would

Bryan Entzminger:

also add to that, that just because you're willing to work with it doesn't mean that it's not time to revisit your rates and say, Hey, based on what you're providing and the product that you're expecting, we're having to do additional remediation.

Bryan Entzminger:

And for us to continue to do that on an ongoing basis will be this

Mike Wilkerson:

there's a whole bunch of piggybacking topics going on here.

Mike Wilkerson:

So my apologies, but it's the way that it works inside of podcast editing.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh, remember to never be afraid to raise your rates.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'm not telling everyone to pull the COVID card, but I think all of us understand that between what's going on inside of the existing economy, what has happened over the last couple of plus years inside of the COVID environment and just things as a matter of fact, costing more money, don't be afraid to go back to the customer and go, I am raising my rates.

Mike Wilkerson:

If they're getting what they expect.

Mike Wilkerson:

If they're getting something that satisfies them and they know that the relationship can continue and you are raising your rates, there should be checked boxes inside of all of those for them.

Mike Wilkerson:

And they'll say, you got it.

Mike Wilkerson:

You know, I trust you with this.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let's do this.

Mike Wilkerson:

And if they can't or if they say, I'm sorry, becoming too expensive, that's no problem.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let them have that out.

Mike Wilkerson:

But then also know that when they go and try, find, try and find somebody else, that's the caliber that you.

Mike Wilkerson:

They're likely not going to find a lot of people that want to have that lower price point all the time, because it's just not tenable.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's not

Daniel Abendroth:

wherever, but I do want to leave as much time as possible for launching new businesses.

Daniel Abendroth:

So I just, I want to start off.

Daniel Abendroth:

We keep talking about it.

Daniel Abendroth:

You mentioned this several times.

Daniel Abendroth:

Tell us why is the

Mike Wilkerson:

editor core?

Mike Wilkerson:

The editor core started originally as where I would just go and find extra people to edit programming because I can imagine I could not physically do it all.

Mike Wilkerson:

And there wasn't enough waking hours and the four and a half hours of sleep I got were great hours, but it starts to wear on you, especially as you get old.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so it was time to go and grab other people.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so I did, and I started with the cadre of people that I had collected as pod-casters over the course of that first six or seven years to see if they were interested in there were a couple, and then it started to expand.

Mike Wilkerson:

And to date, I found either between 11 or 13, depending on the season, uh, people to go to who I can shunt either my two guys talking podcast, network content too, or just the stuff that we're getting in from editor core to.

Mike Wilkerson:

As the people that are finishing that product would that eventually turned into where people just saying, I need to learn how to do this, because it sounds like a lot of fun.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I spend a lot of time doing other people's podcasts, but I want to know the game.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so we turned it into academy as well.

Mike Wilkerson:

What that means is that in addition to getting your podcasts edited, you can also learn how to podcast based on much of the workflow, but most importantly, the experience.

Mike Wilkerson:

That I love showering people with just like we have inside of this program.

Mike Wilkerson:

The most important thing you're going to learn about podcast editing is the thing you've never experienced.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that's where I hope my team and I can provide for the people in the academy, the experience of everything that they haven't experienced yet.

Mike Wilkerson:

Because again, the worst enemy is not knowing what you don't know.

Mike Wilkerson:

It doesn't matter what you do in life.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's the killer that you've never heard of.

Mike Wilkerson:

That.

Mike Wilkerson:

I've never even thought of that.

Mike Wilkerson:

Those are the moments where everybody goes, man.

Mike Wilkerson:

I wish I had a source.

Mike Wilkerson:

And for podcast editing it's editor Corp com.

Mike Wilkerson:

I know that you

Bryan Entzminger:

have the academy, you bring people in.

Bryan Entzminger:

Do people apply to be part

Mike Wilkerson:

of the editor core?

Mike Wilkerson:

They do.

Mike Wilkerson:

All of there are forms available over at the website, editor Corp com.

Mike Wilkerson:

The last people either submit their podcast for edit, or you can also subscribe essentially to become an editor inside of the editor.

Bryan Entzminger:

So if someone were in a Facebook group was to say, Hey, I'm a podcast editor, or I want to be one, do you know of some training and somebody that can help me gain the experience to build a business editor, core.com?

Bryan Entzminger:

Is that an appropriate place to send them?

Bryan Entzminger:

That is

Mike Wilkerson:

the perfect place to send them.

Mike Wilkerson:

And then

Bryan Entzminger:

when they go there, you'll give them all the unicorns and the magic pixie dust and everything.

Bryan Entzminger:

And there'll be great at everything.

Mike Wilkerson:

Podcasts it'll just cause it magic dust.

Mike Wilkerson:

So absolutely magic pixie dust is what you'll find over at editor Corp com not

Bryan Entzminger:

trademarked.

Bryan Entzminger:

Yeah, please.

Bryan Entzminger:

Don't Sue us Disney.

Bryan Entzminger:

It's not our fault.

Mike Wilkerson:

I forgot about Disney.

Mike Wilkerson:

Have I told you about Boba Fett recently?

Daniel Abendroth:

Uh, was that last week and yeah, we talked to, or not last week, but on our last episode, Chris Kerr and about, um, whether somebody should start their own business and for a lot of people, like, because of what you were saying earlier, not everybody, a lot of editors don't think about.

Daniel Abendroth:

Business practices, which is totally fine.

Daniel Abendroth:

If that's not your wheelhouse, you have other options.

Daniel Abendroth:

And one of those is the editor.

Daniel Abendroth:

Cool.

Daniel Abendroth:

Oh,

Mike Wilkerson:

it is absolutely.

Mike Wilkerson:

And it's one of the, I love spilling entrepreneurial spirit onto people.

Mike Wilkerson:

There are many people that we always glance on that will say, Mike does everything.

Mike Wilkerson:

You do have to make money.

Mike Wilkerson:

I'll say, no, not everything, but is there a way we can have this make money?

Mike Wilkerson:

Because why not?

Mike Wilkerson:

If you're dedicating, spending time and effort and experience.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that we, our blood, sweat, and tears of you learning to do X, why on earth should you not be paid for it?

Mike Wilkerson:

And I've never heard a good answer to that because it's Thursday.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, because you should be a good citizen or whatever the answer is, I would prefer to make money.

Daniel Abendroth:

Thanks.

Daniel Abendroth:

Especially if you're working on something, that's going to make somebody else

Mike Wilkerson:

money.

Mike Wilkerson:

What happens a lot inside of podcasting is that there is a plan to make money on the back of whatever the podcast project.

Mike Wilkerson:

Not always, but many times, especially if they're willing to pay a podcast editor, there is an eventual goal of being able to monetize somehow.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, if you're going to eventually monetize, you have to invest in what you're doing.

Mike Wilkerson:

Somehow.

Mike Wilkerson:

This is one of the best pieces of podcasts.

Mike Wilkerson:

Editor knowledge is always go to people and tell the podcast or podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

I know you love podcasting.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I know you hate sitting in front of an editor stack for between three and four hours for your hour program.

Mike Wilkerson:

Don't ya.

Mike Wilkerson:

And all you gotta do is just wait for the nod because as soon as you get the nod, the hook is set.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let me edit your podcast.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let someone that has been doing this for other people do this for you.

Mike Wilkerson:

So you can go back and reclaim the time that you waste and hate sitting in front of an editing.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's what we do at, at evercore.com and it works.

Mike Wilkerson:

You just have to have the conversation.

Mike Wilkerson:

Interestingly,

Bryan Entzminger:

I was talking to a group of high schoolers today about podcasting, and one person said, how much do you make from your podcast?

Bryan Entzminger:

And I was like, well, from my podcast, none of them make money directly.

Bryan Entzminger:

If you were to look at a balance sheet, all of them cost me.

Bryan Entzminger:

The money comes because of the relationships I build and because it provides proof of what I can do to perspective clients.

Bryan Entzminger:

And I make my money by serving them.

Bryan Entzminger:

One

Mike Wilkerson:

of the things that we talk about in podcasting is podcasting doesn't instantly.

Mike Wilkerson:

But what it does do instantly is as you build your library, it instantly builds a library of authority based on whatever it is you're talking.

Mike Wilkerson:

Whether it's about entertainment review, whether it's about law enforcement, whether it's about being law enforcement, dispatcher, whether it's about being a sports pediatrician, whatever it is, you are building a library of you being an authority of.

Mike Wilkerson:

And so really that's the answer.

Mike Wilkerson:

The front end of Brian's answer is absolutely perfect where you go.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, no, I don't like put out my podcast and Hey, look a check for $500,000.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's not how it works.

Mike Wilkerson:

What does happen though?

Mike Wilkerson:

Is that either the advertisements or the body of work now stands as out a shingle, that issues that I am an authority inside of this business industry.

Mike Wilkerson:

And you should come to me to use me, to pay me, to do my skills.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's how podcasting makes money for lots of people.

Bryan Entzminger:

Absolutely.

Bryan Entzminger:

The way you make money is you sell something.

Bryan Entzminger:

That's the only way to make money in a, in a society like ours.

Bryan Entzminger:

You can sell your show.

Bryan Entzminger:

You can sell advertising, you can sell goods and services, anything, but ultimately if you just make a show and don't do anything with it, it will never make you money.

Bryan Entzminger:

You have to sell.

Bryan Entzminger:

So.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah, I can remember vividly.

Mike Wilkerson:

When, when, uh, apple back then it was iTunes.

Mike Wilkerson:

When apple iTunes reviews started rolling in, we would get something consistently, always inside of two guys talking content.

Mike Wilkerson:

And it was, I hate the ads one star.

Mike Wilkerson:

Okay, well, that's great.

Mike Wilkerson:

And unfortunately, we didn't have a way to issue a response inside of the iTunes reviews, but what we did have is we had an all fan input app.

Mike Wilkerson:

We're typically either halfway through a season of a program, the television program that we were reviewing or after a movie review that we did after it had been issued for.

Mike Wilkerson:

We issued an all fan input episode for that.

Mike Wilkerson:

And inside of there, when we would address those, I hate the ads and that's fine.

Mike Wilkerson:

You can hate all the ads hate.

Mike Wilkerson:

Please hate all the ads you want.

Mike Wilkerson:

Just remember that the ads are going to be there because we're trying to make money.

Mike Wilkerson:

And the money allows us to do the project.

Mike Wilkerson:

We're happy to make programming that doesn't have ads.

Mike Wilkerson:

In fact, we'll even give you a program that has no ads, but you got to pay us.

Mike Wilkerson:

Now fast forward here into these low, these 16 years later, really it was several years ago, but the concept of say a Patrion or a subscribed star.com.

Mike Wilkerson:

Well, it instantly is that where all you got to do is become a subscriber.

Mike Wilkerson:

And now with your subscription, you get free ad free podcasts.

Mike Wilkerson:

Awesome.

Mike Wilkerson:

We'll see.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's what we were seeing before.

Mike Wilkerson:

The difference is that there was no advent of say a Patriot or a subscribed star.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's trying to find the ways to monetize.

Mike Wilkerson:

That makes sense.

Mike Wilkerson:

That allow your audience to help foster the effort.

Mike Wilkerson:

And that's why, as things like subscribes are really great.

Bryan Entzminger:

Well, we have run over a little bit.

Bryan Entzminger:

Daniel, do we have time for a pod next question of the day, or should we skip it?

Bryan Entzminger:

I think let's go ahead and do

Daniel Abendroth:

it.

Mike Wilkerson:

Yeah, let's take long.

Mike Wilkerson:

Let's take the project question.

Bryan Entzminger:

I need you to pick a number between one and five.

Bryan Entzminger:

For it is we have, so we actually have real pod decks cards and none of us have seen this yet.

Bryan Entzminger:

Oh, this is a great John Lee Dumas question.

Bryan Entzminger:

What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's not what you preach.

Mike Wilkerson:

It's what you tolerate.

Bryan Entzminger:

I'm going to go with donate the yellow snow part

Daniel Abendroth:

of the pressure.

Daniel Abendroth:

I have no idea, but we talked about tonight, but I'm going to say something that I hear all the time and editors club is know your worth

Bryan Entzminger:

and charge

Mike Wilkerson:

your worth.

Mike Wilkerson:

So that's good.

Mike Wilkerson:

That's a great one.

Daniel Abendroth:

Well, thanks so much, Mike, for coming on.

Daniel Abendroth:

I feel like we need to have you on and keep talking about this.

Daniel Abendroth:

That could have kept going, but if you're watching, thanks for watching your blessing.

Daniel Abendroth:

Thank you for listening.

Daniel Abendroth:

Be sure to subscribe, like to all the things you know, what to do.

Daniel Abendroth:

None of this is new.

Daniel Abendroth:

Um, if you want to be a guest on the show, Brian, what do they need to do?

Daniel Abendroth:

Oh, that's

Bryan Entzminger:

it's easy.

Bryan Entzminger:

You go to podcast editors, mastermind.com/be a guest.

Bryan Entzminger:

There's a little form there for a little bit of information.

Bryan Entzminger:

Putting your information right there that will send an email off to Daniel.

Bryan Entzminger:

It will arrive immediately to his spam box and about once every two weeks, he'll pop in there to see if there's anything there before he goes and deletes it.

Bryan Entzminger:

Thank you, email.

Bryan Entzminger:

And then we'll get back with you and see if we can set up a time to talk about it.

Bryan Entzminger:

Uh, if you have something that you want to bring to the table, or if you have a business problem you're working through, and you're just looking for some advice from us and from the.

Bryan Entzminger:

Go ahead and fill that out.

Bryan Entzminger:

Podcast editors, mastermind.com/be a

Mike Wilkerson:

guest.

Mike Wilkerson:

And

Daniel Abendroth:

our guest tonight has been Mike Wilkerson.

Daniel Abendroth:

You can find him at editor Corp com, voice farmer.com and honestly, where we thought we'd get to this, but podcasts kotlin.com.

Daniel Abendroth:

It'll probably have to bring you on just to talk about that as well.

Daniel Abendroth:

I

Mike Wilkerson:

would love that, but before we stop.

Mike Wilkerson:

All of you for having me in a, this is an incredibly valuable platform.

Mike Wilkerson:

And I foster everyone to come on here and have the dialogues that they're going to make a difference inside of the podcast edited.

Daniel Abendroth:

I appreciate that.

Daniel Abendroth:

Um, Dana, I haven't drowned.

Daniel Abendroth:

You can find me at Roth media audio

Bryan Entzminger:

I'm Brian and Springer.

Bryan Entzminger:

You can find me@toptieraudio.com and unavailable.

Bryan Entzminger:

Tonight was Carrie Caulfield.

Bryan Entzminger:

Eric, you can find her@yappodcasting.com.

Bryan Entzminger:

What is it on instant?

Bryan Entzminger:

Carrie, Eric, I think on Instagram, I don't know, go to Yaya podcasting.com and she's got all of her links right there and she's way smarter than we are.

Bryan Entzminger:

So go, go talk to her.

Mike Wilkerson:

And if you

Daniel Abendroth:

want links to anything and everything that we talked about on this episode, you can go to podcasts, editors, mastermind.com to find it there.

Daniel Abendroth:

And we will see you in the next week.

Mike Wilkerson:

Uh,

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