This week I’m inviting you to pull up a chair with my new friend Sally Srok and I! We are happy hour-ing at one of my favorite restaurants, Willi’s Wine Bar in Santa Rosa, CA enjoying delicious food and wine pairings and talking about ALL of the things including:

• How she came to be the GM of a top-notch winery in Sonoma County
• Why the heck she was in the improv class where we met 
• Her Memoir “The New Jew: An Unexpected Conversion"
• Her second Memoir, "Bonus Round: A Divorce, a Gay-Ex Husband and A Life Reimagined"
• The life-changing Cattle Drive that started her path to self-realization
• Asking What If and the struggle to put herself first 
• What the Dining Room table represented and how she let it go
• Helping others to find themselves in the pages of her books 

Find the White Wines we paired with Ahi Tuna and Scallop Dumplings:

Aperture Sauvignon Blanc 

Domaine Orion Chablis 2022

Find the Red wines paired with Pork Belly Postickers:

Patricia Green Reserve, Willamette Valley  Pinot Noir

Ramazzotti Super Tuscan

Find Sally's Books on Amazon:

1. Bonus Round: A Gay Ex-Husband, A Divorce and a Life Reimagined
2. The New Jew: An Unexpected Conversion

Follow Sally on Instagram!

Follow ME on Instagram!

Check out her website to learn more about her.

If you'd like to Support the Podcast, you can buy me a glass of wine and get a shoutout on a future episode!

Please consider Rating, Reviewing and Following Us on Apple Podcasts!

How? Click Here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with Stars and select "write a review" and let us know what you loved most about this episode! 

If you haven't already, Be Sure to Follow! the podcast!

Looking to be better and understanding wine? Download my Free Wine Tips Cheat Sheet here:.

Questions, suggestions and guest requests? nikki@sipwithnikki.com

Mentioned in this episode:

Olive Oil Farmer

Check out americanolivefarmer.com and use code SipWithNikki for $10 off your order!

We both have this beautiful Sauvignon we snack on?

What do you think about the ahi tuna?

I think I love it and I often get it.

Great.

I also love the scallop dumplings.

I was just looking at that.

Perfect.

And or the crab tacos.

I'm not saying we need all of them.

Let's do the scallop dumplings because I haven't had them before.

Okay,

and that'll be nice with this.

Perfect.

Done and done.

Hard not to look ahead at the next wine, but that's okay.

So just so you know, I have finished both books.

Oh my gosh, you finished both books!

I have my candle with me, with my highlighted sections.

Oh, I read The New Jew since we were here.

Oh my gosh!

, so I'll bring up like a couple sections that I love.

And I don't want to give too much away before we get there.

Okay.

But, um,

it's really nice.

It's really nice.

I'm gulping it like water.

Have you been to Aperture?

I haven't been to Aperture.

They've been to us.

They're your neighbor in Healdsburg.

I know.

Beautiful photography all over the winery at Aperture.

I mean, their website's gorgeous, their wines are gorgeous, Jesse makes great wines.

He's young.

Cats.

Jesse Cats?

He's a young winemaker.

So, let's start with why were you in improv class in Sebastopol?

Right.

Why were you there?

I know why I was there, why

were you there?

So, a couple of reasons.

First, Anina, who was in our class, said, you know, it'd be fun, she said we should take, , improv.

She said, I'm so confronted by the idea that I know I should do it.

I said, I'm in.

So we looked for a class.

There was one in the city.

And then we were like, we don't want to schlep all the city.

And then she texted me and said, Hey, guess what?

Remember we talked about taking improv class a couple of years ago.

Still interested.

I'm like, okay.

And I wasn't sure I was interested, but my answer is yes to most things.

Which is the foundation of improv.

Good point.

Good point.

Yeah.

Predating that though, right after my divorce, I was a , a co host, and panelist on a radio show called What Would Your Mother Say?

Okay.

Out of Stanford University.

So we read this book called improv and it was about a metaphor for life, right?

But it was also what being on a radio show is.

It was a call in show College students would , ask for advice, , and we would as a panel of women.

Almost like Dear

Abby from college,

Stanford students.

Yeah, and then it would be this generational thing, like a college student would answer one way..

So it was that kind of thing.

So that's where I got interested in improv.

You've never

done classes or anything before?

But then even

rewind to that, in college I took a couple of acting classes.

It's always been in me, I just never followed through.

When I first moved to New York, I'm like, I'm gonna get an agency or something.

Start doing auditions.

So I got an agent, which like, it was like an agent like anyone could get.

Yeah.

And I just did some open auditions and didn't get anything.

Cause, you know, it's what you do when you're in New York.

What

were you auditioning for?

What types of things?

Well, um, one was Tony and Tina's wedding, which is all improv.

Yes, I remember, yeah.

It's like immersion of a wedding.

So I auditioned for that, didn't get it.

I was working full time in retail.

I think I've always been interested.

And so I thought I'd give it a

try.

One of the highlights from the books, I think it was from The New Jew, which we'll talk about.

And I haven't highlighted it, but I'm going to try to go from memories.

It's something about, , and as kids during the holidays, , we were always upstairs, writing and putting on skits.

Yes!

And I was like, oh my god, that was me.

Did you do that too?

Yes!

You did?

Totally!

I was always, I mean, we called it that.

I was like, you guys love that.

I used to do skits, and they were all like, who do we have now?

I loved, , writing them, and directing them, and starring in them.

Oh, my cast walked out on me a couple of times.

I had a lot to learn about management.

My cast walked out.

My cast were my two sisters.

My sister, my brother, and my neighbor.

It's like, we're out of here.

You're too bossy.

So many skits.

So I laughed when I read what you wrote.

Isn't that interesting?

Like, is everything you need to know about yourself you learn in kindergarten?

Like, it's so true.

It's true.

Yeah, even as a kid, I would make my sister walk with me to the library and check out scripts and, you know, plays and make them act them out.

So you've always had that passion for, , theater.

Yeah, but I guess I kind of forgot about it.

Yeah.

I always think of it as a one off, but yes.

When you moved from the Midwest to Manhattan after college, you've said you had never visited there before.

Exactly.

Right.

So that to me is so telling about your personality.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Commitment.

Fantasy.

There's another question there about that, but let's unpack that.

Okay.

Why and how and what led you to just pick up and go somewhere you've never been before?

Well, growing up I always knew I'm not going to stay in Wisconsin.

I just felt like I was antsy.

There wasn't enough going on there for me.

And it's really goofy.

I used to watch the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

I used to go to it from New Jersey as a kid on Thanksgiving morning.

The Freezer Patooties.

Remind me to flash forward on this.

So I used to watch that and think, I'm gonna run that parade one day.

Like, I really decided I was gonna run that parade one day.

Not,

I'm gonna be in it.

Oh, no, no, no.

I'm gonna run it.

I'm going to run that parade.

Amen, sister.

Amen.

So, we gotta cheer ourselves up.

So,

I always had New York in my radar, even though I'd never been.

But I just was fascinated by all that was going on there and the pace of it and the glamour of it.

And then I went to school for fashion merchandising.

In northern Wisconsin in farm country.

I can't even put the two together, but that's where they offered it.

So, yeah, so I then, I knew I wanted to live in New York and I had an offer in Chicago, which is close to Milwaukee, which is where I was raised.

Right, right,

much closer.

Much,

but I thought, hmm, if I don't go now, I may never go.

So, God bless my father who was super, , conservative as far as taking risks.

He's the one who said, go.

And my mom, who was more of the risk taker, said you should take Chicago.

So I had 300 in my pocket, which is ridiculous.

And I stayed with a friend of a friend in Manhattan.

I couldn't interview in advance.

This is before internet, right?

So this is 87.

Okay.

And we got New Year's Eve just to make it dramatic.

Just for effect.

Nice.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and so I landed the job I wanted to in retail.

Interviewed with Macy's.

Okay.

And then turned down Macy's and took this other one, Abraham Strauss, which doesn't exist anymore.

A& S?

I remember A& S.

I am of a certain age from the Northeast.

I know A& S.

Exactly.

So they had the best.

It's a retail training program and that's the one I wanted and I was fortunate to get it.

Wow.

So that's what brought me to New York and then I was there for 14 years.

And that's where you met your now ex husband.

Yes.

And he's exactly what I was looking for.

I met him a year later and I thought I want to move here and find a New Yorker husband.

I just knew, when I moved there, I went to Macy's and I'd never been in a department store that was eight stories, like that big.

Didn't exactly story

kitty wooden escalators That only Macy's has still to this day.

Don't

you love that love and I will never forget going I can get chills now It's been so many decades, right?

I'll never forget going into Macy's on 34th Street.

Like oh, this is where the parade is and Going up the escalator Feeling like I was living a dream and I turned around and looked down and all the hubbub in the cosmetics Area thinking This is where I belong.

And I went up to the floor where they had gowns.

I had them unlocked.

Like, all the gowns were locked up, right?

Because it's New York City.

Because it's New York City, right?

And they're expensive, right?

And so I had them unlocked like this.

23 year old.

Unlocking all these gowns for me to try on

because I decided that's the life I'm going to want.

Or I do want.

So we better get used to it now.

And start trying.

You were manifesting.

I was manifesting!

Ha!

Ha!

Not wedding gowns, just gowns, gowns.

No, no, no, gowns, like gala gowns, yeah.

. And then so I said, bookmark, or earmark the flash forward.

When I was newly married, living on the Upper West Side, the parade staging area was one block north of our home.

So we used to go out the night before with all these parties and watching them, inciting all the balloons and the floats.

It's like, oh my gosh, I'm not running the parade, but it's like all right here.

It was just so exciting.

It's so interesting, , to sit here with you to do this interview because I've read both of your books.

So, like, I know a lot.

I know what you've shared.

You know me way too well now.

I feel like I do.

I gotta

stop with the memoirs.

People know me too well.

I'm like, well, I don't have to

ask this question because I already know.

But my listeners don't know.

So, I will ask the questions.

, so, , let me connect the dots.

, so we did our improv class, you and I, and on the last In which you are

incredibly talented, by the way, plugging you.

You are so talented and so fun.

Well, it

helps with interviewing and podcast and hosting wine It's in your blog.

It is.

There was a hot moment where I also thought about, like, SNL.

Oh, totally.

I could see that for you.

Because I was performing improv in Orlando, just at a very amateur level.

Oh,

very cool.

But I loved

it, and I missed it, which is why I went to the class that you and I met in a few months ago.

And at the end of class, we all went next door to that little restaurant and we sat down.

And, you know, here's what is so interesting about the class.

We had a very cool group of people.

And we all got to talk for like six minutes before class.

Five minute break.

Five minute break.

Pee and meet your friends.

And then walking down the street, like, to the car at the end, so we all knew, like, tiny bits of each other.

Morse's, right.

And then we were sitting at that final class dinner, and you said, Oh, I wrote a book, and you were talking about, you said it's called Bonus Round, and it's about my divorce from my gay husband and a cattle drive.

And

I was like, what?

Like every other book.

Like, what?

Like, what did

she just say?

What did she just say?

And then I literally could not wait to get home from that dinner and download all my kino, which I did.

And then I read it, and then, I didn't see you for weeks and I couldn't wait to see you because then I was gonna be like, Oh my god, I read your book, it was so amazing.

But anyway, the cattle drive is how bonus round starts out.

Right.

And it is so powerful.

And so my question is, when you write, especially because I read that book first, so I'm getting to know you as a writer and your tone and your detail, and I'm like, how long ago is this thing that she's writing about because the detail, the conversation, because it's a memoir, it's true.

Yeah, yes, yes.

It's not a novel, it's your life.

How do you recall and write with so much detail?

detail that I feel like I'm there.

When it was, and how many years after it were you writing about it?

Right, so that was, that cattle drive had to be 20 years ago.

Is that amazing?

Yeah, like stop.

Yes.

I'll answer this in two ways.

One, I think when you're really present in the moment, It's easy to recall.

Oh, do you mean one of

the principles that we practice in improvisation?

Oh, there you go.

That's right.

That's

right.

Yes.

And I think we all have that ability for recall, even if we don't realize we're present in the moment.

It's just a matter of finding the quiet and the space for it.

So, for me, I think it's an indulgence to pause and really, really focus.

Remember what that felt like in the moment.

And then I have the journals I can go back on to fill in some of the blanks.

Like in bonus round there's some excerpts about my kids that I found in journals I wrote for them.

Like, oh my gosh, I forgot this.

And I wouldn't have had had I not re read the journals.

So there's some of those details.

So journaling

helps fill in some of the blanks.

Fill in the blanks, yeah.

That

makes sense.

But the feeling sense, I think, is more a mark of courage because it's, the hard thing about writing a memoir is

you're feeling it all over again.

I think.

And in my

experience of being a memoirist is, , I'm not telling the story from an observer's point of view.

Yeah, it's from my heart.

It's from the inside.

Like my mom has said, wow, you really, felt all that.

You remember those feelings.

I said, yeah, well, that's a hard part.

You gotta feel it again to write it.

I mean, there were times I was writing, I was just sobbing.

Well, I was crying when I was reading it!

Yeah, so that's, that's how.

How do you in a little nutshell, Starting with Bonus Round, how do you describe what that's about?

Bonus Round is a story about a woman's surprise that her husband is gay and then following her own inner compass, which is my consulting firm, right?

Her own inner compass.

It's being true to herself and how she manages that divorce.

And it is about choice.

I could have chose bitterness, but I chose love, , it's about a woman becoming empowered and having gratitude for her marriage in the face of divorce.

And I'm sure you read, that thread throughout the book, which is like, this is really hard, I'm heartbroken, and I still love my husband, and it doesn't mean it was all null and void.

And that's how many people treat divorce, or people who are divorced, like, oh, well, you know, your marriage didn't quite count, or it was a big mistake.

It wasn't a mistake.

It just was a surprise ending to it.

And it's also a story about a mother's commitment to family.

Just refused to accept that my kids lose a family over this.

They were young at the time.

Eight and ten or Even younger.

Harrison

was going into fourth grade and Ollie was going into first grade.

So that was the hardest part.

It's like, , this sucks for them.

You know?

So, the mother bear in me came out like, there's no way they lose a family over this.

And I did everything I could to prepare them to find out that their dads gay, what that looks like, living in a provincial suburb, essentially.

So, it's really a story about hope, we as women, anyone going through divorce, there's an opportunity for their own reinvention.

So the, the subtle punchline is my husband came out, but then so did I.

Not in my sexuality, but I am fully realized now as an individual where , I was a safe home mom.

Before I found out my husband was gay, and then I had to go back to work and had to boot everything up and have a total, change in lifestyle.

That rollercoaster of you in the book, like going back to work, finding the job, finding the house, setting up the house, not knowing where the paycheck, figuring it out.

Yes, recession hitting.

That's what I admired so much about you like, I live by , everything is figureoutable.

I love that.

Figure it out.

Figure it out.

Yes.

And you just kept figuring it out, one step at a time.

And

it took, and I did, and one of my motivations for writing it is because I've had so many people say, well, you're so strong, you're so resilient.

It's like, I'm not.

, I don't think I come across great in a book because I'm not this strong superwoman.

I question myself.

You come across real and honest.

And then great.

And then strong.

Total

fiction now.

Real and honest first, which I think is what makes it so relatable, emotional, powerful, , yeah.

Thank you for that word, because that's the word that was really important to me.

Like, I didn't want women to look at me as the other, as, oh, well, you're the exception.

You're built differently.

Like, you're really strong.

You can find your way through.

It's like, no, no, no, no.

It's Like when my son Harrison read it, he said, I had no idea how much you questioned yourself along the way.

Which is probably the

best compliment from a child who was in it.

Right.

To not know.

He thought I just always had it figured out.

You had your shit together.

Mom's got her shit together.

Exactly.

He said, no, he said, So he said, your pattern is you question yourself, and then there's this turning point, like, I got this figure, I'm just going to do it.

And that, because I wanted women to know, , what they see in me is the same as them.

You just persevere.

Strong.

Determined.

Absolutely.

Resilient.

Resourceful.

Yes.

And I think most people are.

But human.

Still human.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I read on your website, , part of the motivation of why you have written these books, you wrote, the lives of others can be our compass.

Mmm.

Talk to me about that.

That's why I love reading memoirs.

Well,

I

put this tuna in my

mouth.

The tuna is so good.

I'm fascinated by other people.

For me, doing interviews is hard to talk about myself.

Like writing a memoir is hilarious because I don't like talking about myself.

I work in wine marketing, right?

, I love promoting someone else's brand, but I don't consider myself a brand.

Like I want people to find my story and find it useful.

It's wonderful.

I'm not as promotional with myself at all, but I should be.

Make no mistake listeners.

This is promotion and I am promoting the heck out of her as a person and as an author and as a wine person and as a friend.

It's hard.

Writing is hard.

It's torture.

Like, I've told people, like, sometimes I'll hit a sentence and I feel like we are just wrestling around on the living room floor until we get, like, I just get

You and the sentence?

are wrestling on the floor?

Yeah, exactly.

Totally.

Do you usually win?

It takes time, but yes.

Or we just, we exhaust each other.

We're laying there flat out on our backs.

I just see like this snake of a sentence and we're just wrestling around like, oh, I can't get it, you know, but I know it's there.

I know I can find it.

So and then writing a memoir is hard because especially a memoir like this is very emotional.

. So what motivates me to write is to be of service to others.

That's it.

It comes through.

I mean.

Oh, thank you.

That, that

is not surprising.

You're talking about sentences.

So I'm like, ooh, let me pull up some of my highlights of some of the sentences that I thought were amazing.

So this is actually from The New Jew, which we'll talk about.

That was so beautifully written.

It stopped me in my tracks and it gave me chills.

So from the new Jew, page 45.

The door clicked behind us and we sauntered silently down the carpeted hall.

I clasped Michael's fingers, the handle of my Bloomingdale's bag filled with leftovers dangling from my other hand.

I hoped Bernice had packaged the love and unbridled energy of the evening with a foil wrapped brisket.

So that when I opened it, I would experience the evening all over again.

Like, I was there.

I could feel the carpet.

I could smell the hallway.

I could smell the brisket

that quote makes me, , miss my mother in law.

She was just so loving.

Food is love.

And I think that's why, Food is love.

Wine is

love.

That

resonated with me too.

Just from an Italian family, Mmm.

And the times of crisis and joy.

It's like food.

Mm hmm.

Yes.

Yeah, so the new Jew opens with her passing.

Yeah.

And then we go on the journey with you while you examine your faith.

It's a reflection.

Yes.

And eventual conversion to Judaism.

, Sally: so the subtitle is An Unexpected Conversion.

I never expected to convert, So I married my husband, Who was Jewish, Never asked me to convert, Didn't expect me to, He loved a Christmas tree, So he was good, because I read

these books Out of order, Right, right!

I read bonus round first, So now I know he's gay.

Then I'm going back and reading The New Jew, and you talk about how he loved a Christmas tree and having a theme in the decoration.

I'm like, Sally, Sally!

I know!

Red, flag!

Red, flag right?

Right?

Have people said that before?

Yes, I

love that.

It's like, what's the word, foreshadowing.

Yes, I was like, oh

my god.

Foreshadowing.

Exactly, exactly.

Did I, I do myself

a disservice by reading them.

Not in the order that you wrote them?

Do you think it matters?

I don't think it matters.

I really don't.

In fact, I wrote The New Jew while I was going through divorce, so that was painful.

So I had to put that out of my head while I was writing The New Jew.

And interestingly, it was my former husband, who was my husband at the time, who suggested I write The New Jew.

He said, I know you've always wanted to write a book, , but how about writing about your conversion?

I'm like, who cares about conversion, it's not very interesting.

Yeah, people are really fascinated.

I'm like, really?

It's interesting that people convert?

It is

fascinating.

, if I were to get another two ounce glass of something that will pair with the scallop dumplings and the tuna that's in front of us.

I'm gonna go with Chardonnay.

Chardonnay is really nice.

Ooh.

Mmm, I never have a Chablis.

I'm gonna go with your, , recommendation.

I'll do the same.

Just do what Nikki does.

Two, two ounces.

Two, two.

Thank you.

In Catholicism, , I always say in the book too, like in how I was raised, I can't make blanket statements about the faith.

Right.

But like we went every Sunday.

Yeah.

And that really was a thing, like to be a quote unquote good Catholic, you go every Sunday.

And we were really involved.

My parents were really involved with the church.

Yeah.

It was our, the center of our social life, really.

So in Judaism, absolutely, it's encouraged to come to temple, but Judaism is really what happens in the home.

Absolutely.

And that's why they accept, like, it's hard for families of young kids to come to services on a Friday night, because the most important thing is you have Shabbat at home and have your family time.

Shabbat Shalom.

Shabbat, yeah, Shabbat Shalom.

I grew up with a lot of Jewish friends.

You did.

, I went to many, many bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs just in my, in my neighborhood in central New Jersey.

There were just as many Jewish families as Italian families.

So, yes, I grew up with probably just as many temples in my town as churches.

So different here.

I think it's one of the hardest things about, I mean, living in California is not hard except financially, right?

Amen!

But, um That's why I have

three jobs!

Right?

No, it's true.

It's why I Worked at the Winery, so I'm the GM of Arista Wine, we've just let the listeners know.

We'll just throw that in there.

We'll just throw that in there.

Did you all hear that?

Chardonnay in all the

land.

Oh, so you do know how to promote.

There's an elevator pitch.

See there, for everyone else I can do it.

It is beautiful Pinot Noir and beautiful Chardonnay.

Gorgeous.

Yeah.

In Sonoma County, in Healdsburg.

Exquisite

estate, approachable people and experience, like incredible wines.

Well yeah, because you make

sure

it's that way in your role, I'm sure.

Oh, It was that way before I came in though, to a really wonderful family night.

So, and I've got, you know, I do executive coaching as well and teach at the local college.

But you and I, one of the many things we have in common, we are multi passionate individuals, entrepreneurs, whatever you want to call it, and it's okay, we don't have to be one thing.

No.

No.

We are, I was thinking of this, like the pinot grape, very complex.

Thank you so much.

You're

welcome.

So a little chardonnay from the Chablis

region.

Cheers.

Nice.

This is going to pair perfectly.

Yes it is.

Yeah.

With scallops and ahi.

Very good.

It's just as bright and fresh as the Sauvignon Blanc that I just had.

It really is.

It's not California Chardonnay y because it's not California.

No better from France.

That's right.

So I appreciate people's curiosity, but I've been in California for over 20 years.

But I miss having people know what the high holidays are.

You know, when I first moved here and had to call my kids out sick for school for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

Because the schools were

not closed for that.

Yeah, they were when I was growing up.

Right.

In most of the world they wouldn't be, right?

I was very spoiled.

I converted in New York City.

There's nothing different about

that.

Do you think that helped with it?

Meaning if you were living somewhere else at that stage in your life, would it have been less available to you to convert?

I think if I had, met my husband in the Midwest, he would have been in a Jewish community there too, in a Jewish family.

So it probably would have been the same.

Because there was really more about me.

Not geographically

where you are, but him and his family.

And friends.

And Bernice, my late mother in law.

To Bernice.

Aw, she's smiling

somewhere.

She sounded like a badass.

She's a badass woman.

For sure.

So that's one thing I miss about being Californian, is having that just be more

Have you found a community here?

A Jewish community?

. . I've joined different

congregations, and it's been fun, but I can't say it's not the same.

Do you

think you'll stay here?

Well, I'm going

to apply for citizenship in Croatia because it's my descendancy.

I'm going to apply for

citizenship in Italy, which I just said was my mouth full.

You and I

are so similar.

It scares me.

Are you serious?

I am serious.

I

decided that after my trip a month ago.

So

can you do it through descendancy?

Yes.

Me too, with Croatia.

See you there.

Oh my God.

See you on the water.

With our EU passports.

So, I don't know.

I mean, I really enjoy California.

I really do love the wine country.

It's special.

It's incredible.

This is where my brain just went.

What is it like to be Jewish in Croatia?

What's the leading religion there?

Not true, do you think?

Right?

No, but it's interesting.

My dad said he always wondered if his mother was of Jewish descent because she was adopted.

So I did the 23andMe.

And it shows I'm 1%.

, Ashkenazi.

Okay.

And so I text my whole family and said, Shabbat Shalom and Mazel Tov, we're all Jewish.

What?

For real?

Yeah.

It's funny.

Interesting.

So today I had an emotional day because it's a stupid reason to have an emotional day, but there's a lot behind it.

So you know, Ollie just moved back, and , Ollie how old now?

25.

Okay.

And living in Berkeley.

But I was looking at my dining room through their eyes, I'm like, what am I, like, it's just schlock, because it's like the dining room table I've had all the time, like since the kids were young.

And so I decided it's time to just go mid century, like I like, like my style.

So I found the table I want.

Your dining room, specifically?

Okay.

Well, not kind of my whole look, but not, it's still somewhat eclectic, right?

But like, Okay.

Just lighter and more contemporary.

Okay.

So, I contacted someone at work, I said to you, want this table.

And he said that would be great.

I would love it.

And then I just wrote, , I'm so glad it's going to someone like, I'm not saying that you talk about in

the book that you moved from one house to the other and started over doing arts and crafts.

Yeah.

What a

great, yes.

I actually wrote about that table.

Yeah.

Did you like get rid of this I'm

just about to, it's about to, yeah.

And so So I wrote to him on, this is the text, I said, I'm so glad it's going to a good home.

I raised my kids around this table.

You know, he wrote back, Oh my God, Sally.

And then I just started sobbing.

Like he understood.

And it's just like,

it's like

me going blonde.

It's like it's a new stage.

It's like,

I'm blonde in the three months that I've known you.

It's been a transformational three months.

The first time we met.

You came in like, what happened here?

You came to class where I was like, oh, look who's here.

Yeah, and so it was very like, I, Olly, you know, Olivia Olly was a, And then, when we got that table, I remember when Michael bid on that table on Ebay.

Michael, the interior designer?

Right, exactly.

Another hint, hint.

Red flag!

Right, exactly.

And then, um.

Not red flag.

That's not the right term.

No, but not red flag, but just like, yeah.

Flag.

We'll just say, we'll say rainbow flag.

Rainbow

flag!

And so yeah, I moved from New York and then the different iterations of California through my different phases of life.

So now, to release it, it's like.

Done.

Like, done.

Like sad?

Melancholy release?

Or like freeing release?

No,

sobbing, sad.

Like, we're done with that thing.

So don't get

rid of that.

The new table arrived today, it's like, I'm good.

Pickle, pickle.

It's good to you.

Right?

It's like, okay, I'm good.

It's time.

It's my dining room now.

Okay.

Okay.

But it's just the letting go of the last phase, and of weighing in, like, what does the next stage look like?

And it's not based on, what do my children need?

It's not based on, what does my spouse need?

It's not based on, what career can I get, do I need to develop?

It's just based on me.

What does Sally want?

Those words are, you just spoke Russian to me.

I don't know what that means.

For myself, because I think now, not that I haven't been, Offer that opportunity.

I haven't wanted the opportunity to think about what to sell you.

It's easier to Distract by what other people need, but that's all been taken away.

That's all in my rearview mirror

It is on paper.

Yeah, they're excited for you.

And there are days I'm super excited.

Yeah.

Hence, looking for Croatian citizenship, but I can do whatever I want.

Taking improv class.

Taking improv class, taking guitar class for a year now.

I took, um, I took the Japanese drumming, which was amazing.

Awesome.

It's like, it does feel wide open, but at other times it's , years ago I wrote this piece, I didn't ever publish it, about, I didn't know the last time my child reached for my hand would be the last time they reached for my hand.

You know, and that's how I feel about them entering adulthood, my former husband moving far away, , and now it's just like, and here I am, and now what?

And it's been a grieving process, it's been a Uh, an exciting process too, but I never thought about the stage.

It didn't occur to me that I'll get to the stage and then what.

So the, the entrance into the wine world kind of came when you had moved out.

It was you and the kids.

You were on your own.

You had to now support the family.

You were hell bent, as people read in this book, about this wine job that you were interviewing and interviewing and interviewing for,

why the wine world?

Especially at

that crazy time you were in.

Right?

I think the wine world came to me.

I feel like it was absolutely meant to be.

, I needed a higher level job than when I was working right after my divorce to support the kids.

Not that Michael wasn't doing his share, but the recession hit, so I had to depend on myself.

So that's the opportunity that came along.

You had to aim

high.

I had to, I had to.

Right away.

Financially, like, I'm, , You needed executive level, I think you write.

I needed executive level, and that came from my, from like writing out my budget and what I needed.

And, . That opportunity came up through my hairdresser, of course, makes no sense.

And I just threw my hat in the ring for this executive job.

That's right, you do

write about that.

The hairdresser was the connector.

Yeah, she's

like, I've got a client who's looking for this person.

Um, for a vice president level job, which I never worked executive level.

I never worked in the wine industry.

I never worked in hospitality.

Did you

like wine at that point?

Love wine at that point?

I knew nothing, I knew nothing about wine.

That wasn't my question.

It wasn't about your knowledge.

Thank you, you're right.

like or love.

I liked wine.

Liked.

I liked.

I'm

from Milwaukee.

I

drink beer

more than wine.

Don't they?

Wisconsin drinks brandy?

Isn't it like the biggest brandy

consuming state?

. Brandy?

Yep.

Big brandy.

So, liked wine, but wasn't like me where you're like, Oh my god, I gotta figure out how to

work in this business.

No, I had to get in the wine industry.

It's like, I knew I had to get an executive job, and I knew I knew how to run a business.

Like, I'd done that for the construction company.

I'd done that for your

home.

Yes.

Which is essentially a business that you were sole proprietor of all of a sudden.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

And Like, when I launched The New Jew, I definitely promoted and marketed a lot.

I was on a book tour, , and did a lot of public speaking and signing.

Which you love.

Which I love.

When I was on book tour for New Jew, I never even prepared notes.

I'm like, I'll go in and know what the audience needs.

Like that's, I just feel like I was there to be of service.

You know?

And that was it.

To provide the compass

for others.

To

provide the compass for others and find themselves in the pages of the story.

That's the goal.

Yeah.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

That's just cool!

So

White Industry found me, and then I've pretty much stayed in the wine industry since I've had my first job for seven years, and I consulted with a whole bunch of different wineries, ended up being a professor in the wine industry.

But what I didn't expect was to have this connection to my roots, because it's agriculture.

Okay, I remember being at my first, , Vintners event, a grower's event, and looking around, it's like, this is a bunch of people in overalls.

This is farming.

It's farming.

It's just a sexy end product, but it's farming.

I'm in the business of farming, and I could relate to the growers because they remind me of my grandpa who was a farmer..

It's like, we're at the mercy of Mother Nature.

Amen.

And then there's this creative element, like, what do you do with your grapes?

And then there's this philosophy about integrity, like, Do you want to make the same wine every vintage?

That's okay, you can add juice, you want.

Or do we want to have a different philosophy like we do at Arista?

And make it all about what Mother Earth gives us.

And try to, not just accentuate that, just highlight that, let it be that.

It takes a lot of confidence to do that.

So, there are wineries that have customers, their customer wants the exact same wine, the predictability of that bottle, regardless of the vintage.

And there's another customer who loves the excitement of how is 2017 different from 2018.

And so they want to taste what happened that year with the Earth.

And so there's no right or wrong, which is what the customer wants.

Yeah,

that's a great way to put it.

This is what I love about it.

Me as a winemaker on my own project, yes, we're trying to express that year, because I always talk about wine as like a time capsule in the bottle.

I love that.

That year and what happened to get it in that bottle, and this might be a difference between like a boomer Customer base versus a more millennial or Gen Z.

I don't know I'm gonna take your wine marketing class starting next month.

So maybe we'll touch on this.

But I wonder if The younger wine drinker is looking for more of that excitement and okay with it Being less consistent from year to year.

I don't know.

We need some more wine.

We do.

I'm loving these little two ounce pours.

This is fun.

It

is fun.

I feel like, at least for me, and please don't feel like you have to , do what I do, but I want to move into some light.

Only because I have so far.

I know.

Some light red next.

I have to go to Pinot next.

Oh my god, Pinot.

Okay, alright, alright.

Pick a Pinot.

Pick a Pinot.

Yeah, pick a Pinot.

Pick a, pick a two ounce Pinot.

Okay, you know what?

Let's do Willamette Valley.

Patricia Green Reserve, Willamette Valley.

Let's do that.

Two

ounces each, please.

And how are you with food?

Okay, at the moment.

Okay, at the moment, too.

I'm gonna add something.

Yeah.

Potentially.

That's what I love about Willie's Wine Bar, is whenever I go to a restaurant, I want to get all the appetizers.

Okay.

I just want all the apps, like, and I want to go with as many people as possible because I want to taste all the things I want two bites of everything.

Is that not reflective of my life and needing to have a hand in everything?

Right?

I don't, maybe it's FOMO.

I don't know, but that's why I love it here because it's all small.

I think

it's FOMO, but I think it's actually just a deep appreciation for the variety of life.

It's just an appreciation.

It is an appreciation.

It is an appreciation.

Yeah.

I want to just You don't want to miss it.

No.

But because you appreciate it so much.

Yeah.

So I

love that even just with the, with two of us here tonight, we're going to try multiple wines, especially with their, you know, two ounce half glass

program is awesome.

Because we can taste all the things.

And I like to pair.

Right?

The white was beautiful, but now I'm thinking sliders maybe.

Yes, or like the pork belly.

Let's do that.

Potstickers are great with pinot.

Okay, what were

we talking about?

You're talking about the consumer of different Oh, yeah.

Do

you think there is a correlation with generational?

I think maybe it's a correlation

with confidence in wine drinking.

Like I've had Nice word.

Yeah, I've had friends who I think always wanted Same wine, that same, you know, purveyor because it was, it was predictable,

it's safe.

Exactly.

They're intimidated and confused by wine.

Yes.

And they don't want to risk their glass or their bottle money.

In case they don't like it.

So people drink very narrowly,

I think.

Well, I blame the industry for making people afraid and intimidated.

Yeah, that's why I started the

podcast.

To try to help people get out of that bubble.

See?

No one should be hosting in a way like,

Oh, well that's not what it is.

Like, no, whatever you say is right.

It's your experience.

Cheers with our Willamette Valley Pinot Noir.

This is beautiful color.

Mmm.

How immense I smell that earthier Pacific Northwest Pinot.

It's

not Russian River, Sonoma County Pinot.

No brightness in the cherry.

I want to get us back to writing.

I'm thinking with bonus round.

You know, Nikki, I guess I think about people who have just bitter divorces.

Mm hmm.

Or just so much contention that it hurts the children.

You know, and that divorce is an opportunity for us to grow up.

And to still be the adults.

It's like, so many people take a hall pass, and it's like, Well, I'm divorced, I can make comments about my ex, and

so,

I think that's, it's really a big part of the reason I wrote too, is like, you can do this differently.

With grace, grace for yourself, grace for your former, and just surrender and acceptance.

Like, I'm getting divorced, this is how it goes.

My hope is that if people read Bonus Round, when someone says I'm divorced, they take pause and realize there's a lot of pain behind that statement, and to handle them with care.

You've got to feel like, with both of your books, even just how they affected me, you've got to know and feel how much you are helping, influencing, enlightening, lifting people up.

I mean, I'm sure that's a big part of why you do it, right?

I'll, I'll hear you.

It's funny, that's how I feel about other people.

Like they just, people amaze me.

I find People just amazing.

So I write in bonus on how I find myself being like a sociologist watching other people.

Mm-Hmm.

and how they are in marriage.

Like, oh wait, that's not us.

There's.

But it answers like I knew there was something missing in my childhood too is something that I yearn for.

Hence I gotta go.

I think I gotta go to New York.

I just, I need a clean plate.

I think I gotta

move somewhere that I've seen on TV and the Macy's.

Exactly!

I

gotta run that

parade!

I think, I have a real passion for sharing the courage of being who you are and whatever that is.

I just remembered When we were in our class where we met and I overheard you say about bonus round about a divorce and a next husband in a cattle drive

and

Then I heard you talking to some of our classmates a couple weeks later You about your other book, The New Jew, and it was about conversion to Judaism.

And you were speaking to someone, our classmate, who is Jewish.

Roberta?

Yes.

Yes.

And I remember hearing that in the moment, you know, on one of our little breaks in our class.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting.

After six minutes, get to know you.

But I was kind of like, well, I don't need to read that.

That doesn't really apply to me.

I'm not Jewish.

I'm aware of Judaism because I grew up around it.

I'm not looking for anything.

And I kind of dismissed it, right?

Sure.

But then I I read Bonus Round and I loved your style and how you write and getting to know you that I was like, well, I can't not read it.

And I have to say that it, having literally just finished it this week, the new Jew, was just as, if not more, moving

even though On paper, you wouldn't think, Oh, well I can relate to that.

I absolutely can relate to so many things that you're saying.

So, I'm saying this because , I think everyone should read both of them.

Mmm.

Because there are things to take away from both, even if you can't draw a literal line to your situation and what you are writing about.

, there's so much poignancy, thoughtfulness, and care in how you write that I think, regardless of people's situation.

There's something to be taken away from both.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And I didn't put that together until just now.

And then I remembered, I heard you say to her, Oh, it's about my conversion to Judaism.

And I was like, Oh, okay.

Yeah.

I'm not just kind of already now studying Judaism.

I don't need to learn about the gay husband.

Cause I think that's fun.

Yeah.

You know, which was cool.

So yeah, that was just a realization.

I just had sitting here at the table.

Oh, thank you.

Well, as you're saying, I'm

realizing there's this, like, the new true, I think, is more about the reconciling of who I was raised to be versus who I am.

It's deeper than just the converse.

Yeah, it's not about the religion so much.

It's like, who am I, and where was I finding my place in the world, away from the place I was raised, both geographically and spiritually.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think giving ourselves permission to question everything is critical.

I wish there was more of that now.

Should we order another dish for, you know?

Yeah.

Okay.

Talk to me.

Pork belly potstickers?

Yes.

Let's get that.

Anything else?

I think that's good.

I look at this menu as if I don't know exactly what's on here.

Yeah, you haven't memorized what's on here.

I know exactly what's on here.

I think that's good.

Yeah, we'll just do that.

. What

is the last thing that you said?

You said it's about being okay to explore.

I realized that as a teenager, and I remember telling my mom, I'm going to have to start making changes or I'm not going to have a very fun life.

And I did, like I went to a different college, and then I took an internship in Chicago, then I moved to London for a little bit for a, semester.

It's like, and every time was super uncomfortable, but I did it anyhow.

I parallel

your life, my life and your life parallel.

Tell me more.

In this.

I don't want to get into all the details of me.

Okay.

This is about you, but just that theme of change and getting settled somewhere and then changing and then whether it was my choice to change or things were being changed for me.

And then getting comfortable and then getting uncomfortable and finding out for like that's reinventing and recreating myself for 48 years has been the only concept.

So I'm used to But you must have people in your world that mirror that.

Because I, like when I go back to the Midwest I

world

that support that.

That's

different.

They support it.

Or admire it.

Go.

Try it.

Like your dad said about New York versus Chicago.

Go.

Right?

Everyone around me has always been supportive of even the craziest things that I've wanted to do.

Like going through a divorce and moving to California by myself.

to work in the wine business and live in a house in the middle of a vineyard on a mountain with no cell service.

Like, and they were like, okay, go.

You can always come back.

You can always come

home.

We're here.

And that support is wonderful.

It's, none of this would have happened without them.

I love that.

And I feel the same.

I feel really fortunate and blessed to have a family that's so supportive.

I mean, they couldn't wait for Bonus Round to come out.

. As we're talking about improv, I'm realizing that huge value.

And we may not be talking about how we are testing ourselves or being uncomfortable, but just by the mere fact that we're there, we've got a common

value.

That we're there in class, you mean?

Even just To take the time to carve out six to eight on a Tuesday for eight weeks as all working professionals.

Yeah.

Not easy to get there yet.

We did, and like

for me, it's really hard to do something.

I'm not good at

. I'm just definitely not good at it.

Well, first of all, you were good at it as your classmate, but I get that

and the great thing about improv is it's so supportive.

Yeah.

By nature of improv, right?

Like, you can't, like, no one's, there's no judgment.

It's so positive.

I gotta take a picture of these.

This is like one of, I mean, all the dishes we've had tonight are beautiful looking and tasting.

But in my opinion, like when I tell guests when they're asking for somewhere to go in Sonoma County and I say, Oh, go to Billy's Wine Bar, I always say, I get the pork belly potstickers.

It's like an orange citrus sauce, got these mushrooms on the top, the greens.

They're a little bit crispy.

Beautiful.

They did such a great job here.

If you were gonna have one more, two outs, to close it out, what would it be?

I'm thinking a red blend.

Yes, let's do it.

Because there's definitely some richness

to this pork.

Yep.

They have Rmazzotti on here.

Rmazzotti

is our

grower.

Oh, really?

I think we

should have that then.

For Sollevato.

Let's have that.

Super Tuscan.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Perfect.

All right.

Two, two Ramazzotti.

You're good ears.

Thanks.

So,

when I think about my leadership style, two of my favorite words are, what if.

What if we try it this way?

What if we add a subscription model to our membership?

What if we have walk ins?

It just seems like the more things feel unsteady in the world, the more we grip onto the sameness of life.

Definitely.

Right?

Definitely.

So, I love the what if.

In leadership, and giving people a safe place, be like, let's just give it a try.

The only sense of failure is we didn't try.

You know, what if trying is the way to go?

I think the same is true for personal lives.

For my personal life.

Like, what if there's a different religion that fits me better?

What if it's Judaism?

That would never fit me.

You know, what if the East Coast is a fit for me, you know?

What if the wine business, and the wine industry, like, I just, like I said, I knew nothing about wine until I enjoyed it enough.

But what if I'm really capable?

There's that, that passage in Bonus Run where I'm interviewing for this Vice President role and I'm talking to my friend on the phone and I just start doubling over laughing.

Standing on the sidewalk in San Francisco going to a different interview like, this is ridiculous that I'm interviewing for a Vice President role in a up and coming winery.

And her response was, it's not ridiculous at all, Sally.

Why would that be?

That's not ridiculous, you're completely able to do this.

Just the title,

because of the title?

No.

Yes.

And the scope of work, I've never had, you know, hundreds of people report in to me.

Much less three.

Hundreds.

Well, when I started there were 13 people, and then it turned into 300 in two months.

Just craziness, right?

But I, in my heart of hearts, I knew I could do it, even though I hadn't done it before.

And I love that saying, just because you can't, haven't done it, doesn't mean you don't know how to.

Like, we know what we know about ourselves.

But what if you are capable without having to prove you've done it?

And I think that's, I think that's the model for life.

I think it's what will keep me young, is living the what if.

What if I what if it's all absolutely possible?

The only task we have is to believe it.

Or try on the idea of believing it.

Going to Macy's and trying on the gowns for a gal I've never been invited to because I've been in there 36 hours.

You know, in flash forward, I absolutely have that.

In fact, I worked for a fashion company that made gowns.

Couture.

And so like, like you just, it's like we know where we're going.

We just have to let go and let it happen.

So, coming back to the cattle drive, there's so many metaphors in there, and one is, like, if you were to drop the reins on the horse, they know where to go, but just let go a little bit.

Don't hold on too tight, you're going to be bucked off, you're going to be reared up.

Isn't that such a metaphor for life?

Like, just, like, just let go a little bit.

Loosen up on the reins.

You'll go where you're supposed to go.

And P.

S., you probably pretty much know where you're going, you just may take a moment or two to believe it.

Start living as if you are.

When you talk about the cattle drive being such a metaphor,, my last highlight that I have in my Kindle, During the cattle drive, you write,

In the saddle, I had learned what it felt like to be taken care of on the cattle drive, And it was a stark contrast to how I felt in my marriage.

The message was clear.

It should not be this hard to be loved.

But it took you getting on a freaking horse in the middle of the desert, getting lost, sorry, spoiler alert, and meeting some crazy personalities in there to actually listen to what was already in there.

Right.

That's how I read that.

That's great.

So many people read back that line, like it should not be this hard to be loved.

Yeah.

It's so true.

So, yeah, it took being removed

from my environment and everything that made me comfortable in that environment to be with myself in a brand new environment to see that.

That's why

we do those things when we get out

of town.

Yes, like when I'm in the out of town.

Literally and figuratively.

When I was on the cattle drive, I wasn't a mother.

I wasn't a wife.

I wasn't a volunteer in the laundry room.

Girl, you had chaps on.

You had

absolute chaps.

I know, I love those chaps.

They're very well worn because I've gone on a lot of cattle drives since that first cattle drive.

Last question.

Yes.

As we cut into our pork belly potstickers with our Rmazzottis.

Is there another book

Oh, there'll be many more books.

I just don't know what the next one is.

Okay.

Probably not a memoir.

There'll be other books, and what I've been sort of meditating on, it's like, what Cheers.

What do I have to say?

And what do people need?

That's what I've, that's what I've been pondering.

Is that why you teach?

Oh

yeah.

And coach.

I love coaching too.

But like in a classroom teaching.

Yeah, I love, I feel like, again, like this isn't my knowledge to hold.

Like when you read back from those sentences, like, oh that looped through me.

I almost can't take credit for them.

That's how it feels.

Except when I get in the wrestling matches.

Those I win.

Do people ever read back highlights or quotes from a book like that to you and you are like, I don't even remember writing that.

Like you said, it moves through you.

Is that different than, I don't remember writing that?

Yeah, it's funny, I almost feel like I can't take credit for it.

I think it's more like, I'm glad I could capture the feelings of them with the right words.

Like, words fascinate me.

Like, all that makes a book or an essay is words in a certain order.

Isn't that crazy?

There's words in a certain order that can evoke a feeling in others.

It's just fascinating to me.

They're just words.

Wow.

You know the order, and you evoked a lot from me in both of these books, so I'm really excited for people to pour themselves a really nice, lovely glass of wine, and jump into these books, and

they go well with a glass of wine for

sure.

I mean, what doesn't?

Thank you for doing this.

It's been amazing talking with you tonight.

for eating and drinking with me tonight.

for having me.

I love talking to you.

And I'm of course

gonna put all of your links, your social media, your website, the books, I'll put all the links in the show notes so people know how to find all your things.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.