What does it cost to walk into a room and wonder whether all of you is welcome there?

For many LGBTQIA+ people, that question is not theoretical. It can shape how we move through schools, workplaces, families, communities, and relationships. How much of ourselves do we reveal? Who is safe? What happens if people really know us? And why, in spaces that claim to value dignity and belonging, are people still being asked to hide, shrink, or edit themselves just to fit?

In this episode of The Wheelhouse, I’m joined by three recurring guests and friends of the show, Jamar Green, Mel King, and Rich Ognibene, for a deeply personal conversation about identity, faith, family, belonging, and the environments we create for one another.

Jamar reflects on growing up in a strict Baptist home as the son of a pastor and the complicated intersections of faith, family, and identity. Mel brings his perspective as a trans man, writer, and advocate working with Equality Federation. And our education royal, Rich Ognibene, shares what he has learned across an extraordinary career as an educator and openly gay man.

I’m part of this conversation too. As a gay man who has experienced hostility in the workplace, I know something about the calculations people make when deciding whether it is safe to bring their whole selves into a space.

Throughout this season, we have talked about dehumanization, fragmentation, drift, and the other conditions that emerge when schools and organizations lose sight of the human beings at the center of their work. This conversation reminds us that those conditions are not abstract. People live inside them.

We talk about the difference between being tolerated and genuinely valued. We explore what conditional belonging takes from people — the energy spent hiding, watching, calculating, and protecting oneself — and what schools, workplaces, and communities lose when people cannot fully show up as themselves.

And we consider something equally important: what happens when someone gets it right. When another person communicates, through words and actions, You do not have to edit yourself here.

Because belonging that requires us to surrender part of who we are isn’t really belonging at all.

And once someone has trusted us enough to tell us who they are and what they are experiencing, the question becomes ours: What are we going to do with what we’ve heard?

Takeaways

• Belonging becomes conditional when people must decide how much of themselves is safe to reveal.
• Dehumanization is not always loud; sometimes it shows up in the quiet calculations people make simply to move through a space safely.
• There is an important difference between being tolerated, accepted, affirmed, and genuinely valued.
• Schools and workplaces lose something significant when people spend their energy protecting themselves instead of learning, creating, teaching, leading, and connecting.
• Genuine belonging does not require people to hide, shrink, defend, or apologize for who they are.
• Once we understand someone’s lived experience, we have a responsibility to consider what our own actions — or silence — are communicating.

Follow Students Matter, LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn.

Connect on LinkedIn with each of us individually: Kathy Mohney, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and Dr. Grant Chandler.

To learn more about the Students Matter Ecosystem, stop by:

Students Matter

LearnHarbor

Until next time, remember:

Every student matters. Every educator matters. And what we create together matters.

Stay Oriented.

Stay oriented.

What does it cost to walk into a room and wonder whether all of you is welcome there?

For LGBTQIA people, that question can become part of everyday life.

How much can I say who is safe?

Will knowing this about me change how you see me?

And why, in places that claim to value dignity and belonging, are people still being asked to shrink themselves just to fit?

Today we're joined by three recurring Wheelhouse guests, Jamar Greene, Mel King, and Rich Anyabene, for a deeply personal conversation about identity, belonging, faith, schools, work, and the environments we create for one another.

Because belonging that requires you to hide part of yourself isn't really belonging at all.

A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse.

Lets get oriented.

Throughout this season, we've been examining six conditions that show up when schools lose sight of the human beings at the center of the work.

Lack of alignment, drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, instructional erosion, and future confusion.

We've talked about those conditions through the experiences of students, educators, leaders, and people trying to create something better.

But today we're going to make this very personal.

Because these conditions don't live in a framework, people live inside them.

Our guests today know something about what it means to enter spaces and wonder whether they are safe enough to be fully themselves.

Jamar Green is a PhD student who grew up in a strict Baptist household with a father who is a pastor.

His story sits at the intersection of identity, family, faith, and becoming.

Mel King is a writer, a trans man, and works with Equality Federation.

Mel brings both lived experience and the perspective of someone working every day to create communities where LGBTQIA people can live with greater dignity and possibility.

And then there's education.

Royal Rich Anya Bedi, the National Teachers hall of Fame inductee, extraordinary educator, longtime friend of the Wheelhouse, and a gay man whose career has demonstrated what it looks like to lead openly, courageously, authentically.

And I'm part of this conversation too.

I've experienced hostility in the workplace because of who I am.

And I know something about the quiet calculations people make about when to speak, when to stay silent, and whether bringing your whole self into a space might come with consequences.

So today we're not asking people to explain or defend who they are.

We're asking a completely different why should anyone have to negotiate their humanity in order to belong?

And maybe even a harder one.

What responsibility do the rest of us carry when we know that's happening?

Let's get into it.

Good morning.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, and this is episode nine of the Wheelhouse.

Happy Summer, I am super excited to welcome two members of the Wheelhouse team to the podcast this morning.

Michael Pipa and Dr. Alicia Monroe.

Good morning.

Good morning.

You guys sound so great.

Kathy, Moni is away in the field today and can't join us.

She's really, really upset about that because she wanted to be in the space.

Our amazing guests.

But, hey, you know, duty calls, so it's good to see both of you.

Are you well?

Yes.

I'm very excited for this conversation today.

Yes.

Yeah, this is gonna be a really good one.

We have wheelhouse royalty.

I was thinking about that this morning as I was walking the dogs, getting ready.

Like, all three of our guests are amazing wheelhouse guests who are returning again, and we are super excited.

So I'm just gonna frame this conversation before I welcome them officially.

Belonging should not require negotiation.

Human beings should not have to surrender pieces of themselves as the price of belonging.

So the big question today is, can I be myself here?

For LGBTQIA people, that calculation I know all too well can become a constant.

How much do I reveal?

Who is safe?

What happens if they know?

What will this change how they see me?

Do I correct them?

Do I stay quiet?

So many times I get asked about my wife.

I don't have one.

Do I have to prove that I belong here?

Today's guests are amazing human beings and dear friends of ours.

Jamar Green brings the intersection of identity, faith, family, and becoming.

Mel King brings gender identity, writing, advocacy, and the experience of navigating institutions as a trans man.

And National Teacher hall of Fame inductee Rich Anya, Benny brings decades, decades of extraordinary accomplishment.

He's only 32 in education, while also knowing what it means to live and lead as a gay man.

So, my dear friends, Jamar Green, Mel King, and Rich Anya Beddy, welcome back to the Wheelhouse.

It's great to be here, granted.

Thank you so much.

So glad to be here.

Thank you for inviting me back.

We are thrilled to have you back.

Absolutely thrilled.

And so I'm going to ask the first question because I know we want to jump right in because there's so much to talk about.

I have pages and pages and pages of notes that I want to illustrate, but I want to start with go right for the guts.

Right.

When did you first recognize that being fully yourself might carry a cost?

Well, I'll jump in then.

And I want to just start by saying, in my role as St. John Fisher, I supervise student teachers.

I get into a lot of schools, and I am truly impressed.

Rural, urban, suburban.

Every school I'M in.

Has very visible support for gay and trans kids.

And so I know we're going to talk about areas for growth, which is important, but I think it's important that we honor the work that teachers and administrators, at least in my little blue neck of the woods, are doing.

And many of them are doing very good work.

That being said, teaching is the most closeted profession in the world.

And so while I think schools do a lot for kids, it's clear from the evidence of the lack of out gay non binary trans teachers that it's still not safe for the adults.

And the nonverbal message we send when Most kids go K12 without ever seeing an openly gay teacher, the nonverbal message we send is, this is such an awful thing.

It can't be spoken about here.

And that is dangerous and unhealthy, not only for the gay and trans kids, but for the straight and cisgender kids too.

It's just a bad message for all of them.

I couldn't agree more, sir.

Mel, I'll jump in.

Sure.

You know, when I came out in middle school, I lost friends.

And I think that that was probably the very first moment that I had that realization that being myself would mean some loss, or at least it would mean that it would take some time to find my people.

And when I came out as trans, the first thing I learned about being trans, which I am grateful that young people today have other things that come up on Google first.

Right.

But for me, it was trans day of remembrance.

And so it was immediately linking identity to possible cost.

Right.

And it would take a long time for me to figure out that like, that cost comes to trans femmes of color specifically at a much greater rate than it does to white trans men.

And still.

And still that was the message that I got really early on.

So I guess for me, growing up in like my school district, I guess my school district was very progressive.

And I feel like being who I was, it brought people to me more.

Like more people gravitated to me.

Especially being a theater geek and a band geek, I feel like just being so outgoing and then being an rltc, it's like, I guess everyone kind of gravitated to me and I like, I guess I have a welcoming energy, people say so I feel like it just brought people to me more.

And even like with my school district, we had a gay straight alliance, and then we even had a Same sex gendered bathroom.

I felt like that was very progressive.

So I felt like my school district was a little ahead of its time.

Yeah, Grant you and I started teaching around the same time.

And it was very unsafe to be a gay teacher back then.

I went to the March on Washington that became National Coming Out Day.

And I came out to colleagues at a time when nobody was doing that.

And hiv.

AIDS was a new scary illness and there were no medicines for it.

So there was a lot of homophobia and a lot of fear, and it was unsafe.

It felt like it was a risk.

I risk.

Teachers who came out, risked losing their job, not getting tenure, being harassed by students.

In that era, it was not uncommon to be walking down the street or the hallway and you'd hear a fag or.

That's so gay.

Things have definitely evolved how we, for how we treat students.

And I think gay teachers, at least in blue states like New York, where I am, feel okay with colleagues, but they still don't feel okay being out to kids.

And, you know, we need more black teachers.

That's a pipeline issue.

We need more male teachers.

That's a pipeline issue.

We need more openly gay teachers.

That's not a pipeline issue.

That's a culture issue, because they're already there.

They just don't feel safe being honest about who they are.

Yeah, absolutely.

I started teaching in a rural area, extremely conservative.

I chose to commute 75 miles.

Right.

There was no way I was going to live there in that particular community.

So for eight years, I drove 2 hours and 30 minutes a day, right.

So I could live in a place that I felt safe and just put my teacher hat on and went and did my teacher thing.

Right.

During the day.

100%.

100%.

Yeah.

My life as a trans man who passes as CIS is a complicated one.

You know, I'm married to my.

To my lovely wife.

And when people see us in the world, we are read in a particular way that involves a kind of coming out.

And, you know, my life is very queer, it is very trans, and it is intentionally so.

But I walk into spaces like a doctor's office or, um, you know, a network networking event, and.

And there's a.

A choice to be made.

Um, and I, you know, I live my life out, as out as I possibly can be, but I also live my life knowing the risk, knowing the risk of coming out as trans.

Especially now, especially now.

Um, and I live especially now.

And I live in Brooklyn.

You know, I live in New York City, which feels like the safest possible place that I can be living.

Um, and.

And still I know that there's a calculation that comes with that.

I think there are times, not so much in the classroom, but certainly in culture, when I travel to different parts of the world.

There are times when I kind of straighten up a little bit if I'm in a place that doesn't feel safe.

The kind of social distance you would keep walking down the street with somebody that's a gay friend or a partner or husband, you self monitor.

And I think it's important for people listening to this that when we reach out to gay and trans kids, whenever we reach out to any group of kids, pedagogically, we help everyone.

It's the curb cut philosophy that it was done.

Curb cuts were done for people in wheelchairs, but they actually help people on bikes.

And mom and dad's pushing strollers turns out to be doing something to target one group of people actually benefits all.

And a quick story to illustrate that.

I had a student named Nick, lacrosse player, in my chemistry class.

And you know, he was an athletic kid, always had a baseball cap, and as young men are want to be, he had kind of a uber masculine Persona in 11th grade.

And so he was a little wary of the openly gay teacher.

And I won him over by about week three and he started coming in for extra help.

And on report card time, I fudged his grade a little.

I bumped it up a few points because he was trying hard.

And so I get a thank you note in an email from his mom in November, and the header said thank you.

And I assumed she was going to thank me for tutoring him or making his grade a little bit more friendly than it might have otherwise been.

But that wasn't it at all.

If I live to be 100, I'll remember this email said.

Dear Mr. O, I'm Nick's mom.

I feel compelled to say thank you.

Nick's older brother is in college and he came home this summer and came out as being gay.

And Nick didn't take it well.

And there's been a lot of fighting and anger and sadness in our house.

But since he's met you, his feelings have evolved on the issue.

And Nick and his brother are friends again.

And I feel like you've given me back my family.

And that's the kind of unintended benefit of recognizing all people in our classroom and letting people be fully human.

Because we're not only helping the targeted group, we're helping everybody.

Full stop.

All season long on the Wheelhouse, we've been talking about the conditions that get in the way of the schools.

We say we want drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, instructional erosion, future confusion, and the lack of alignment.

But naming the problem isn't enough.

The Students Matter ecosystem was built to help schools do something about it.

Through tactical leadership, powerful student care, instructional excellence, future ready schools, and guided learning through Learn harbor, we help educators create greater coherence, strengthen the human experience of school, and keep keep the work centered where it belongs on students.

Because meaningful change doesn't come from adding one more initiative.

It comes from getting the important things working together.

The conversation, it starts in the wheelhouse.

The work, it continues through Students Matter.

Explore the Students Matter Eco System and learn [email protected].

We'd love to help you turn what matters into what happens.

So I guess for me, yeah, I'm always, like, on high alert when I enter any space, especially with people who I've never met before.

But at the end of the day, I'm always going to be myself.

But I feel like it's like peeling away an onion.

I reveal myself slowly but surely.

And if I get to the point where I realize that the person can't take who I am or just won't, like, just accept me for who I am, I just move myself from the situation.

I feel like God's rejection is for my protection.

So I feel like God puts me in certain spaces for certain reasons.

And sometimes it may not be the best situation I want to be in.

But at the end of the day, it's a teachable moment whether the person learns the lesson or not.

At least they heard me sit there and say, no, this is not the right way you should be treating this person, or this is not the right pronouns.

So it's like now, today's time pronouns are a big thing, especially like in schools, in both spaces.

So I feel like that's for me.

So I've been listening to quite a bit.

I always pick out keywords.

So I hear blue and then I hear calculated.

And to me, they're not one and the same, right?

So blue means that we're progressive, right?

And that we're really embracing the all and the beautiful mosaic of diversity.

But then I hear calculated, and that's a disparity, right.

If we were all blue, then we don't need to be calculating.

So I kind of want to really bring that and surface that a little bit more and discuss that, because then I think we're really.

Jamal.

Peeling back the onion, right?

We're talking about code switching.

We're talking about assimilation for safety.

And I'm going to give you an example.

I sit on a university campus now.

As I sat in my office, I would have a diverse, lovely, beautiful mosaic of students that really just kind of just moved in.

They were there before I even came on campus.

And that's the way I like it.

And Jamar knows that.

Right.

The more students, the better.

However, what hurt me more is that when my students, my trans students, or those who are transitioning sat in my space, they were like, Dr. Monroe, we can't wait till you get on campus.

Because these are one of the few spaces where I feel safe.

So I really want to discuss that more because all is not blue, and this climate does not lend or cater itself to blue.

Right.

It caters itself to blue.

Calculated and assimilation.

And I wanted to know if we could talk about that a little bit more.

Grant, if you're okay with that.

Before we move on to the next question, what are your thoughts?

I have friends that have several, probably four or five couples friends that have a trans child, and one of them lives in Kansas.

And right now in Kansas, they're taking licenses back that are marked with.

They want it marked to your assigned gender at birth, not the gender that you are now.

And there's a lot of fear.

And I know that for kids in schools, and even in blue states, you go 20 minutes outside of Rochester in any direction, you're in a rural area.

That's true for every city.

There are still many places where it's not safe to be yourself.

If you're a student that's gay or trans, if you're a student of color in those places, you might be the only one in your classroom.

If you're Jewish or Muslim, you might be the only one in your classroom.

So, yes, yeah, we have some work to do in making our schools safe for all kids.

And again, when you reach out to one group of kids, be they gay kids or black kids or Jewish kids or whomever, you make it safer for all kids.

And they learn more.

And in the end, that's our job.

They learn more.

To add on, I would say, like a lot of college campuses, they have what they call, like, their little Safe havens for students, for LGBTQ students, students of color.

They'll have, like, their multicultural centers and things like that, but they deem those as safe spaces.

But are they really safe?

Because a lot of times it's meant for those students, but anybody can just walk in at any time.

And at that point, a student never knows who.

If that person that's walking in, are they.

Terminology I use from Doc, from Dr. Monroe's class, are they being an ally or are they an authentic ally?

Are they coming in here to attack me, or are they coming in here to, like, learn from me and to better help the community?

So, like, all safe spaces that are deemed safe spaces are not always safe.

Oh, it's so true.

I really love what Rich and Jamar are saying here.

Yeah.

I really appreciate you pulling on this thread, Alicia.

I think it's a conversation that has been being had for so long, and it takes on such a different tenor in this moment.

Right?

Like, I remember reading Nobody Passes by Matilda Bernstein Sycamore when I was in college, right?

And it was like this.

It's a wonderful book.

Strongly recommend that.

The idea of, like, do what.

What value is there even in the idea of passing right when.

And I think for trans folks especially, it can be held up as an ideal.

But whose ideal is that?

Right?

And in this moment, being able to pass often means safety, depending on where you are.

Right.

And I think it takes a different kind of courage in this moment to live authentically.

And I think that we are seeing both the repercussions of what happens when people retreat, you know, when our institutions retreat from allyship and when.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think that's.

That's a.

That's a big part of it for me right now, thinking I.

And I.

So I work at an LGBTQ advocacy organization, and a lot of my work has become around safety and security.

How do we keep our movement safe?

How do we keep our people safe?

And that is.

It's not a bucket of work that I ever thought I would take on, and it has become so important, because.

What happens when people live, to quote Jamar, in a state of high alert?

Right.

All the time.

All the time.

I wanted to jump in a little bit and just accept an invitation.

I heard both in Jamar's comment and in Rich's comment, as a father of a trans female daughter who is decidedly herself everywhere she goes, but the feeling that both my wife and I have every time she leaves the house, I think every parent can in some way understand that.

But when you add to it the complete lack of, of any veneer of safety whatsoever.

You learn to live with it.

But to me, it speaks to your comment.

Jamar, Even safe spaces don't have the kind of guarantees and assurances that allow you to set down the psychic load that each of you carries as human beings who insist on living in the world authentically.

And for me, that's, that's what I don't understand.

As a straight CIS male who's white, I, I don't know what that burden feels like because it's, it's, you are.

You never get to fully set it down.

And that's one of the things that I learn from.

Every time I sit with our oldest and she talks about a particular news story that is on her feed, that is just inciting rage and consternation, she acquaints me with that burden that loads, that is constant.

But I think about how important it is that every time one of us insists upon being who we are in the world, as you say, Rich, we make it better for everybody.

And it slowly erodes cultures of exclusivity, cultures built on division and privilege.

And it honors the fact that the lesson of biology, which is life needs diversity.

It needs and it requires it that when we have that diversity available to us present in our lives, we can breathe.

To go back to a comment Mel, you made in a previous season, suddenly the air is breathable and our vision improves, our humanity is enhanced and enlightened.

But that burden is the thing that I'm reminded of that I don't know, but I hear and I feel in each of your remarks.

Mike, I want to.

That's a great segue.

I want to tie that burden into pedagogy.

In schools, adolescents are going through self definition.

They're trying to define themselves.

And when that definition changes, it's stressful.

So if your parents are getting divorced, that's stressful.

If you're an athlete and you tear your acl, that's stressful.

And as teachers, we need to know that we need to support the kids because it's a decent thing to do, but also because their head is full of these thoughts and they're not gonna learn the chemistry or the English or the math until we help them get through those thoughts.

So too, for students who are defining their sexual orientation or gender identity and we have this false binary where either teachers are rigorous content providers or touchy feely, Birkenstock wearing, granola munching, psychosocial analysts that just care about feelings and the Answer is we have to be both, because we can't do the former without the latter.

If I want kids to pass the chemistry Regents or the physics exam, I've got to get through that affective moat that is surrounding their head.

And all those feelings.

I might not be aware as a teacher that your daughter just read this awful story about a trans woman being attacked somewhere, but the kids are reading those stories and that's floating around in there.

I might not be aware that a kid is about to come out to his mom and dad and he doesn't feel it's going to go well, but those feelings are flooding his head.

And we as educators, if we want to teach content, we have to navigate, help them navigate.

And you all know as teachers, when you run into somebody at the grocery store 10 years down the road, they never stop me go, hey, Rich, that spellbinding lesson on acids and basis, that's what I remember.

No, they remember those little moments of humanity when we helped them navigate the shoals of life.

And long after the content is gone, that's what they remember.

So we teach as much through our humanity as we do through any lesson plan or formative assessment.

Two weeks ago, we had Madison middlesed on and she was talking about being seen and being heard and being connected to and enriched.

You're exactly right.

Connecting that to pedagogy is so important, right?

Because we have humans sitting in front of us.

I want to connect this conversation because it's an amazing conversation.

I want to connect it to the six conditions that we've been talking about in schools, we all season long.

And so I'm just going to really quickly, I want to just share those six conditions and then ask you to respond to what you hear.

Right.

So we've been talking about lack of alignment.

So an organization says everyone belongs here, while policies, language, behaviors, or leaders communicate something very different.

Drift.

Belonging.

Depends on which teacher, which supervisor, which building, which pastor, which coach, or which colleague happens to be in front of you at the current moment.

Fragmentation.

We divide people into categories instead of seeing them as whole human beings.

There's a student over there, they're gay over there, they're trans over there, they're black over there, there's a person somewhere else.

We have to label them and fragment them.

We dehumanize them.

Because identity becomes something to debate, something that we have to tolerate or regulate or fear or manage, rather than simply part of a human being being worthy of dignity.

And I'm going to quote Cobb and crown apple as a birthright.

Right.

Dignity as a birthright.

There's instructional erosion because for students especially.

And Rich, you just spoke to this energy that should be available for curiosity and learning and relationships is constantly on high alert, and they're scanning the environment for danger.

And then finally, future confusion.

Young people begin asking, not simply what do I want to become, but is there a future somewhere in which someone like me is allowed to thrive?

So I just wanted to connect those to this conversation and then say to these amazing folks, when you hear me say that, what do you want to add to that conversation?

Mel?

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think so.

I think what first comes to mind for me is those teachers who made it possible for me to take the backpack off, you know, to like, lighten that load and to feel just like I could be a kid in a classroom.

And I also, I really heard the drift that it really depends on who's in front of you.

And I feel like that was so much my experience that, like, I knew.

I knew who I felt comfortable with, I knew who I felt safe with as a student, and I knew who I really didn't.

And yeah, so that.

That first comes to mind.

But I also that that last one around, where is there a future?

Is there a future for someone like me?

I mean, I think I did not meet a trans person until I came out as trans.

Right.

So I.

Which I think tomorrow's point earlier.

Right.

Like, I think sometimes that, like, by being authentic, we bring people to us and we find our community by being the authentic human in the world.

But I didn't know if I could be an out trans person thriving in Albany, New York, for lots of reasons, but in part because the only people that I really knew were folks who were generations older than me, that the community there was incredibly insular.

And it felt like I had to leave.

It felt like.

And that was actually this past week, 20 years ago, that I moved to New York City when I was 18 years old.

And in part because I did what a lot of people do, which is go to the big population center where there are queer and trans people.

And I feel very grateful that it was close enough to home.

But I. I hope for a world where people do not have to leave their hometown to feel like they can breathe, like they can find their people, like they can find a future where they belong.

So I feel like, for me, just tying it all back to where I grew up in school, what I hear is just forget it all and just be who you are.

Because even thinking back to my high school graduation, A student actually came out as trans at graduation to the whole class, to over 600 something students.

So at my high school, girls usually wore white and boys wore black and this student wore a black cap and gown.

And we're all like, that's for the guys.

And everyone was so accepting.

Even parents, like, no one even like batted an eye at them.

Everyone was just like, this is your day.

Be who you are.

And like, everyone was just so celebratory.

Like, again, I felt like my district was very progressive and very proactive in knowing the way that the economy was going and where society was going and how receptive that society could be to certain situations like that.

You know, Mike, you talked about authentic and said, you don't know what it's as a CIS straight man, what it's like to come out.

But I'm going to argue that every human I know, every student, every person, has parts of themselves that we hide for reasons that are uncomfortable, we feel embarrassed.

And one of the great lessons for adolescents, for kids, is that life gets really good when you can be who you are.

And sometimes, whether it's a openly trans person, an openly gay person, someone who's honest about their fight with anxiety or depression, all those human battles that we fight, when somebody's honest about it, there's always two other people in the room that are thinking, oh, wow, I'm not alone anymore.

And again, that when we're not alone, learning becomes better, life becomes better, we become better humans.

And so that ability to be authentic and not to fraction our lives off and have compartments here and there, it helps us all.

So when a trans person has the courage at graduation to say that there are a lot of people in the audience who are fighting other battles or the same battle and feel like, oh, wow, I've got hope here.

It's so important, it's so important that we try to model for kids in school the courage to be who we are and to laugh at ourselves and to be honest about ourselves and that we're all navigating life together and it's hard sometimes, no matter what, our life is.

Beautifully said and beautifully opened up.

Thank you.

So those six conditions aren't abstract ideas.

They're real people, real humans living within those six conditions every single day.

So this podcast is in 80 countries, listened to by a lot of people.

I hope even more as we continue.

What do you want listeners to take away from this conversation today?

There have been many nuggets, many things that I want to go back and listen to again and again and again from all five of you.

But as you speak to the audience, who's listening?

And those could be teachers, those could be leaders, those could be students, those could be anybody.

I mean, anybody can download the podcast, right, and listen to it.

So what do you hope that someone listening takes away from this conversation?

I would hope that they would take some action steps.

So if you're in a district where the library has books for queer kids and support, write a thank you note to the school board and the superintendent and the principal and the librarian, because they're getting a lot of the notes in the other direction.

If you're in a district that's not supported of, show up at a school board meeting.

Show up and meet with the principal.

If you can get your hands on a gay or trans alumni to come with you and share their stories and advocate.

And if you're in a place where it's really unsafe, if you're in a place in a conservative state where your schools can't do anything overtly, be like the French Resistance and find ways as an educator to gently support kids.

And even something as subtle as saying in class, I can't say gay in class, but I can say, this weekend I had dinner with my sister Olivia and her wife Katrina, because you can still have family.

There are ways to let kids know that you're a safe person.

And that would be the one takeaway that in any way possible in schools, find ways to let kids know that you're an ally.

Whether it's overtly with the flag and the safe zone sticker, or if you have to do it kind of, you know, under the table a little bit more subtly.

But find ways to let kids know that you're a safe person.

That would be my one hope because there are a lot of kids who don't feel safe right now.

I guess I can go.

So my one thing that I want to take away is if you are part of the community and you feel like you're being rejected from certain people because of who you are, let them reject you because their rejection is your protection.

And you don't want to be in spaces where you're not welcome because that's just going to make you feel like you're walking on eggshells.

And if you're not accepted and other people aren't accepted, then how are we going to move forward and continue the fight that has been being fought for so many years?

And if we're not continuing this fight, we're not going to get to where we need to be.

I second what Rich and Jamar have said, for sure.

I really loved Rich's call to action.

I will also say that, like nearly every state has advocacy organizations on the ground who are doing this work to change the climate in schools.

Right.

New York had the Dignity for All Students act, the Empire State Pride agenda championed years and years ago.

Right.

And it took years for that bill to pass.

So I just.

I want to second that call to action.

And also knowing who those organizations are and who is doing that great work in your state can be an incredible lifeline to those students in your classroom.

If I had known that those organizations had existed way back when, I think it would have.

I found them my own way.

But I think if a teacher had introduced me to them, I think it would have felt really different.

And I'll also say that it doesn't take much to show that you are an open and safe person.

I really liked what Rich said about just letting someone know that, like, you have queer people in your life or that you have trans people in your life.

Like, I. I think that would have.

It would have meant a lot to me as a young person.

And I think in this day, when it is feeling.

When I know that many people are feeling the urge to close down, step back, that just, Just a word like that means so much.

Yeah.

And I think, I think to the young people, right?

Like, to the young people in those classrooms, being authentic brings you to your people.

You know, if I have learned anything, it is that by being open and honest about my life as a queer person and as a trans person, it has brought me to my people.

Not always the easy route, right, Jamar?

But I think that it.

That's.

That's the way.

Yeah, that.

That's what I would say.

What would the world be like if we stopped asking people to prove that they deserve to belong?

I have been quietly, as the only female voice in this space today, I have been quietly taking this all in.

And what I want listeners to understand that there is a burden to masking.

So if we want to be human truly, and stand ten toes down on empathy, we need to understand that there is a burden to masking.

So I wanted to really.

I heard you elevate your question, Grant, but I want listeners to understand as A female of color, right?

There is this burden that is an undue burden upon me and everyone in this space to have to switch codes to assimilate into a society that has been ingrained in tenets and edicts that don't represent the individuals in this space.

We have to own that, right?

So when we sit in reflection, we gotta own our stuff.

So if we're asking, what would it be for this ideal space, we gotta know what it is now.

And we gotta really be real with this stuff.

It is not a space where we're all blue.

And I'm glad, Rich, you went back and said, well, like Mel said, in Brooklyn it's blue, but in Albany it wasn't as blue.

Right?

Which means that there is a disparity.

There are some states that are just red.

Right?

And we're asking folks to live as human beings and be safe.

I just want us to really, really be grounded in the foundation of what this is.

And it's not pie in the sky.

And thank you for the call to action, Rich, because we got a long way to go, all right?

Because I know what I go through every single day.

So I can identify somewhat with the identities, the beautiful identities in this space.

But where is the empathy, right?

Where is the understanding that with masking and assimilation and code switching comes with a cost?

Right?

And if we're talking about psychological safety.

Right.

And mental health, and we're talking about trauma and we're talking about.

And yet we have to survive every day.

My lived experience is very different, and that is put on me by other human beings who feel that I may not belong.

So this is what we have to really look at when we define safety.

Thanks, Alicia.

That was very poignant.

And tying back into a call of action, one area where we could show some empathy.

Most schools have a program like School Tool or Infinite Campus that they do attendance and grades, and by state law, they have to have the legal name on.

Many districts find ways to put preferred name and pronouns.

So it takes the onus off.

The trans student doesn't have to go to nine different teachers every year.

That's just a small step of empathy.

Another thing, it's also a reminder to the teacher every day of, like, this person.

We have 120 kids.

You sometimes forget.

So having that reminder, it makes the kids feel safe.

It's just better for kids.

Another area where we as educators could take some action is we got to look at health class.

And we gotta say, we have more and more kids now that are non binary and trans.

And gay and pansexual.

And I'm old enough I've forgotten some of the letters at the end of the lgbtqia.

So we have a diversity there.

And I truly wish we lived in the world where kids met their dates at the high school dance and the gym on a Friday night, surrounded by loving teachers.

We don't.

They meet on their phones, and we have to.

And especially gay and trans kids, because it feels safer to talk to a stranger on a phone than to come out in their school.

Sometimes we need to help them navigate that and not be afraid to have curriculum that addresses that.

We have these very real kids, and we have to help them with some very bottom level Maslow safety needs, and that's an area where we fall a little bit short sometimes.

I hear consistently from my gay and trans kids, there was just nothing in the health curriculum that addressed the reality of their lives as adolescents, figuring out who they are.

So those are two action steps that I'd love to see schools take a little focus on.

And a huge shout out to the state of Massachusetts, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, for adding LGBTQIA curriculum to their health curriculum.

It's pretty amazing and pretty powerful for those students to be seen when they're learning very important, very important topics to their lives.

Okay, who wants the last word?

As we bring this episode to a close, We've got Rich and Mel and Jamar.

Who's going to take it home?

I'll end where I started by saying thank you to all the teachers and administrators who are trying their best to help gay and trans kids.

I think, yeah, I think that I want to say thank you to those who are doing this work, because it's not.

Doesn't come without risk.

Being a teacher in a classroom today and being an empathetic person in a world that is trying to eradicate empathy in all of its forms.

And so I appreciate you bringing this conversation together, Grant, because it feels not just urgent, it feels vital in this moment.

So thank you.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you to everyone here.

Just want to say thank you to the teachers, staff, administrators that do put their foot forward and put a target on their back to help LGBTQ students feel seen.

That's an important.

That's an important comment, Jamar.

Absolutely.

Michael, Alicia, any final comments from you, my amazing team?

I'm sitting here just feeling that if I'm somebody listening, like I'm listening to our conversation, if I don't feel like I can be brave, maybe reframing it and saying to myself at the Very least, can I resist being driven by fear?

So much seems to be an appeal to fear in the discourse in our culture today.

And resisting that call to be afraid, but instead to act on the fundamental principle of humanity that has created all possibility in our lives.

So I usually have one of the last comments.

However, this has been such a deep, needed conversation.

I just kind of want the silence of me not saying anything to just rest in the space, to elevate the other voices.

So, my dear brother Michael, I'm gonna, I'm going to let your comment be the last word.

I think it's, it's for us to elevate these thoughts more.

So as I listened deeply, there were deeper levels of inquiry that just kind of flourished from my spirit.

Like, great point.

Okay, so what I am going to ask is for more.

I think we just skimmed the surface here and I would hope that everyone in this space would avail themselves to another conversation because it's absolutely imperative that, like you said, Rich, we build community.

When this voice is elevated or when the voices of other subgroups that have been marginalized by this society is elevated, we then build awareness and then community.

And with humanity and with thinking about that, we're asking that pedagogy and practice align in the sectors of education, but not only there within a faith based community.

And I can go on and on and on.

So my last word, Grant, is an ask and a friendly request that this not be the last, that this be the first of many.

So I'm just gonna say stay tuned because we're gonna see if we can get Mel and Rich and Jamar to return to the wheelhouse in season 14 in the fall to continue this great conversation.

So they're nodding, so it looks like that's a possibility.

So we will say, see you all soon for part two of this amazing conversation.

And we'll see you next week for the finale of season 13.

There's something I keep coming back to after this conversation.

How much energy do people spend trying to determine whether it's safe to simply be themselves?

Energy that could have gone toward learning, creating, teaching, leading, building relationships, dreaming about what comes next.

And that's why this conversation belongs so squarely inside the work we've been doing all season.

Dehumanization isn't always loud.

Sometimes it looks like silence.

Sometimes it looks like a person deciding not to correct someone, not to mention a partner.

Not to talk about their family, not to ask for what they need, not to reveal one more thing about themselves because they aren't sure what the response will be and sometimes organizations proudly proclaim that everyone belongs while the people inside them are still calculating how much of themselves they're actually allowed to bring through the door.

That's not belonging.

And this isn't only about LGBTQIA people.

It's about the kind of schools, workplaces, and communities we choose to create.

Because if belonging is conditional, someone will always be standing at the edge of wondering whether the condition applies to them.

Jamar Mel Rich, thank you for trusting us with your experiences, your wisdom, and most importantly, yourselves.

And to Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro, thank you for continuing to create the kind of space where conversations like this can happen.

Last episode we asked, how many students have to tell us the same thing before we finally do something about it?

Maybe today adds another question.

Once someone has trusted us enough to tell us who they are and what they're experiencing, what are we going to do with what we've just heard?

That's ours to answer.

There's one more thing I want to acknowledge before we close.

We recorded this conversation on August 25, the very same day Dolly Parton died.

And I've been thinking about her.

Not simply because of the music or the extraordinary life she lived, but because of the way she seemed to move through the world.

Kindness mattered.

People mattered.

Children mattered.

And if she could help, she helped.

And somehow, through all of it, she never seemed to lose her joy, her humor, or her humanity.

Maybe that's not a bad challenge for the rest of us.

See people take care of one another.

Use whatever influence you have to make somebody else's life a little better.

Until next time, stay oriented.

We'll see you next week for the finale of season 13.