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Building Your Owned Audience for B2B Marketing - Anthony Kennada
Episode 47 • 9th September 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:51:17

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You may have heard the phrase, "every company is a media company"—but what does this actually mean for B2B?

How do you go about building an audience, what content should you use, and how should you measure it?

Here to answer these questions is category-creating CMO and founder, Anthony Kennada. He helped pioneer the category of customer success as founding CMO at Gainsight, and today is helping B2B companies develop owned audiences as CEO of AudiencePlus.

Anthony is a great marketer who has thought deeply about how brands should develop relationships with audiences for the long term. This wide-ranging conversation explores many facets of how to put this into practice.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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About Today's Guest

Anthony Kennada is the co-founder and CEO of AudiencePlus—building software, content, and community to help every company become a media company.

Prior to founding AudiencePlus, he served as the CMO of companies like Hopin, Front, and Gainsight. At this last company, he and his team are credited with creating the Customer Success category.

Anthony is also the author of Category Creation: How to Build a Brand that Customers, Employees, and Investors Will Love, which debuted as a number one new release on Amazon.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/akennada/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:43] - Evolving through growth stages at Gainsight
  • [06:40] - Category creation
  • [14:09] - Why should every company be a media company?
  • [24:31] - Metrics for audience marketing
  • [34:47] - Partnering with content creators
  • [40:25] - Edutainment
  • [44:29] - Golden Hour

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

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Transcripts

Speaker:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

it's 10 years ago and you're a new

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:

CMO building your marketing strategy.

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What do you do?

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You're probably going to roll

out a lot of the tried and

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true content marketing tactics.

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I'm going to start a blog, write

eBooks, maybe post something kind

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of self promotional on LinkedIn.

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And if you're really adventurous and

edgy, maybe you're going to do a low

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budget podcast or something like that.

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If we fast forward to today,

we're in a really different place.

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The business content world is in this

kind of awkward transitional phase

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between more traditional and buttoned

up professional content on the one hand

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:

and on the other, this more consumer

oriented media style, one that's drawing

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on everything from The latest Tik TOK

formats to YouTube style comedy sketches

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to really slick looking reality TV type

docu series, and a whole bunch more,

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:

You may have heard this phrase that every

company is a media company and wondered.

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It's hard enough to make B2B software.

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Why do we have to be a media

company on top of that?

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And here to help us answer that question,

we have Anthony Cannata, CEO of audience

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plus a software platform for own media.

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He's also a multi time CMO and was

founding marketing leader at gain site

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where he helped Pioneer the customer

success software category and scale them

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to nearly 100 million ARR in the process.

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Anthony, so good to have you on the show.

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

good to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

I want to dive into the B2B media

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topic, but first, maybe we can just

roll back the clock a little bit.

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Cause you've had a really

interesting experience at Gainsight.

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You were their first marketing hire.

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As I said, and typically, , companies will

cycle through a few different executives

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during different growth stages, and that's

kind of conventional wisdom that you need

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to do that, especially in marketing and

sales, and you really rode that train all

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the way to a pretty significant milestone.

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Maybe you can just tell us a bit

about that experience and kind of how

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you evolved through those different

growth stages as a marketing leader.

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

I mean, certainly on a personal level,

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that was the ghost that I was chasing

was I don't want to be hired over.

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I want to be the one to scale.

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And, there's something very

motivating about that, but I

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think it's absolutely true.

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I think the different phases of company

building, you require different

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things of your, marketing team.

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and in the first stage of, our business,

it was really 0 to 1, program building,

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what is our approach to marketing?

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Are we content led?

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Should we start a community?

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what's our strategic

narrative, out into the world.

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And it's not that these things go

away over time, but when you're in

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the sort of foundational stages, it's

sort of creating a point of view that

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you're going to become known for.

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And so a lot of that was, first time.

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Program.

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So we did an event called pulse.

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and every year, the idea was how

can we do it better and bigger?

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how do we take it into new markets?

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how do we scale a conference

conference happens once a year?

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what would you do for

the rest of the year?

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So that turned into like virtual programs.

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we talk about content, quite a bit.

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and so that phase was so much fun.

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and really, really enjoyed.

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I'd say it's probably zero to

20 million or so of a lot of the

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net new ideas pretty quickly, a

couple of things start happening.

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one, that in my experience,

the game site was.

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one thing I regret almost was

we really started taking product

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marketing much more seriously at

the, about honestly 20 million mark.

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My regret is not taking it seriously

earlier, but you start to become known

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for the, something, but the question is,

are you able to monetize your awareness?

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Are you able to better, convert

this brand into software?

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And so things got a bit more.

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Traditional from there.

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how do we strengthen our marketing funnel?

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How do we think about these

channels more, efficiently?

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and I would say during the

tail end of my, time there.

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So really, again, they call it

the 80 to a hundred kind of run.

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it became a lot more about.

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Efficiency and managing

to the spreadsheet.

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It's less of like net new programs.

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It's more of like, how

do we do this faster?

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Better get more pipeline out of it and

not spend as much money to get there.

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and so that's probably the 3

chapter arc of my tenure there.

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And it's been awesome to watch what

they've done since because they brought

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in folks that really have seen the

100 million plus kind of journey, to.

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take it to that next level, but for me as

a marketer, I love the inception phase.

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I love the creativity.

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I love, new idea generation.

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And again, it's not to say that

doesn't happen later stage either,

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but, I'm really enjoying now applying

that to what we're doing at audience.

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justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

Do you find that The appetite for new

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things that the, vibe of innovation,

that sort of challenger energy, is

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it hard to sustain that as you become

more established, you have more to

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lose appetite for risk goes down.

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Typically.

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

Yeah, and I don't think that's a bad

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thing necessarily, but think that

there's a reason, there's folks that

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are startup people and there's folks

that want to go work at a big company.

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You work at a big company and if you

want to introduce a new idea, there's

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probably a couple of committees you

have to go through and some internal

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politicking to, get that idea, approved.

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Whereas in the earlier stages, you

can, be a little bit more agile.

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You can try and fail.

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when you have, like, an investor relations

team, it's a lot harder to try and fail.

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It's a bit more of setting proper

expectations and hitting, our

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commitments to shareholders

and to the market at large.

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So, I think just by nature, it's not

like, uh, condemnation on the company,

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but just things change as you get bigger.

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And from there.

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There's this appetite towards

predictability and efficiency and scale.

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that becomes more of the

charter than creativity.

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in my view.

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so not, doesn't.

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Speak ill of later stage businesses,

because I think there's some people

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that are really great at that and

love kind of the operational rigor

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love, finding efficiencies and,

the industry needs folks that are

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very passionate about that as well.

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justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: I think

a lot of it is about finding where you

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excel, like where your comfort zone is.

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When I was in consulting, you know, got to

work with a lot of different companies, a

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lot of different stages, including some.

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Really great, fortune 500 brands,

but what you see with those companies

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is that so much of the work is about

the process of doing the work as

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opposed to ideation and, movement.

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, and there's people that excel

at navigating that environment

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and it's a real skill.

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I like an environment where I can

move a little bit more quickly.

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and one of the things that you did, in

moving quickly at Gainsight it's kind

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of build this category for this new

thing that didn't exist before customer

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success platform I had an interesting,

chat little while ago with Mark Oregon,

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who's the founding CEO of Eloqua,

kind of about his journey, founding

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the category of marketing automation.

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And one of the interesting things

he said was like, It's not actually

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always the easiest way to go to market.

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it's actually can be really hard and

some people are just wired this way.

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And I see you now with audience plus

kind of doing this new thing again.

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And it suggests to me, maybe

you are wired this way.

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do you feel that?

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: I do.

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I've learned from Mark so much over

the years on, on this very topic.

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I came into gain site.

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That was my first marketing job.

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So I, a background in product and BD and a

little bit of sales, but never marketing.

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And so any skill building, any

craftsmanship or any 10, 000 hours

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gained was, you know, In a situation

where there wasn't an incumbent

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company, that was dominating that use

case or for that persona or whatever.

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And so I learned how to do marketing

in a world where only looking

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backwards, we can say we were creating

a category or we were building.

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Equity in a problem.

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we were communicating a problem and

driving awareness around a problem

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in an effort to then introduce a

solution to solve that problem.

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and so a lot of the

messaging, a lot of the.

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content, a lot of the narratives

that we helped facilitate within

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the community weren't about our

software, the bits and bytes.

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They were all about this

problem that our persona had.

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and so, yeah, I mean, I think in general.

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it's all I know from back, I'm a glutton

for punishment, because it's definitely

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not the most straightforward way to

build a marketing engine, to build

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a company, surely, but I think for

people that have created a category,

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Mark, hopefully would attest to this

too, one, sometimes it's the only way.

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there is no one doing what

audience plus is doing today.

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You can build it yourself.

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Maybe if you cobble together four or five,

six different solutions, but no one is,

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is doing this and you have to convict

the market on why is this important?

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and that was the case

with gainsight as well.

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But the other thing I'll add too,

is that, if you are wired this way,

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It's actually quite fulfilling.

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it's a rather nice way to find meaning

in enterprise software, because

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there's this emotional part of it.

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There's this kind of

people centricity two way.

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There's a lot of empathy, and

creativity, as we talked about earlier.

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So I think that, even though it's

super hard and there are easier

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ways to make money, ultimately, it's

definitely a more fulfilling journey.

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I would argue for the folks that are,

wired that way are keen to take that on.

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justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: if we

take, those two experiences, you know,

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Gain Sight in the first instance and now

Audience Plus in the second, and we'll

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go much deeper into Audience Plus a bit

later, but I'm just curious, like at

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what stage in the Gain Sight journey did

you feel super confident that we have

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really found a meaningful problem that

people will, pay for and now we just have

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to like put more fuel on the fire where

in that spectrum or that journey do you

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feel that you are now with Audience Plus?

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: Yeah.

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it happened really early.

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because within our first three months

at Gainsight, we talked to analysts.

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We, tried to like find the market

map to figure out how we're

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going to position the business.

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We did all of the things that like

you would do in a traditional context.

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And none of it felt right.

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none of it felt right.

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Authentic to the problem that we were

solving or really seeing the white

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space and where we can make an impact.

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So Gartner was telling us to position

as a CRM, for example, we're like, gosh,

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like, there's no way we're going to take

on Salesforce, you know, or whatever.

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and so that didn't feel

right, but what we've.

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Observed was that there was this

community that met on LinkedIn,

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honestly, and then met in random

office parks around the Bay area.

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and they were all, self named

as customer success managers.

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It's like, gosh, that's interesting.

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What is this role?

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And what we.

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Learned is first of all, there was

about a hundred of them on LinkedIn,

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probably 70 of them worked at Salesforce.

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So I think they get the credit

for like naming the role for sure.

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but they were accountable to the outcome

that our software would help provide.

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However, they didn't have a

brand that was fighting for them.

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They were somewhat marginalized

in the market around the

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sort of leadership table.

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sales had a, career path.

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Marketing had a career path.

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Support did even professional

services, but customer success

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was this rather new cottage thing.

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And there are more questions than answers.

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And so when we went to one of these

meetups, what we felt, and this was

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like, not a highly produced event.

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But we felt this like tangible feeling in

the room of like, I'm, I'm finally around

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other people who are like me or who are

going through what I'm going through.

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And that was sort of the clue that led

to the hypothesis of like, okay, well,

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what if we brought these people together?

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And what if we, maybe did a little

better than the pizza and, soda or

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whatever, like event and did an event

that was a bit more highly produced.

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And it wasn't about us, but we just

radically focused on serving that

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persona and advancing their interests

and fighting for them, championing them.

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Would we benefit?

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would they eventually

buy software from us?

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So about, month three or four on the

job, we hosted a conference that had 300

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people attend all about customer success.

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Aaron Zuora, Jeffrey Moore, who

wrote crossing the chasm, you know,

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incredible kind of speaker list.

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And what we saw there in the room was

that That feeling was validated amplified,

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if anything, maybe some of the fog

machines and lighting might have helped

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to help facilitate that a little bit.

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that was the moment.

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And so we just never looked back.

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We just double down, triple

down on not just doing events

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all the time, building a.

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Digital presence on our website.

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That was all about best practices

for customer success, doing original

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research and sort of ROI work, taking

out billboards, just to use the words,

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customer success, so people would

literally see it and help recognize that

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it was a real thing, investing with like

Forrester and others on putting their

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logo next to the words, customer success

and distributing that content ourselves.

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So we did a lot of things to

basically build equity into

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that, but it all stemmed from.

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less than a million of ARR, community

of people who validated the thing that

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we were professing into the world.

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justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: What

did they call it before that term existed?

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I'm so now just like in my brain,

I'm like, that's just a thing.

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

I don't think anyone was

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responsible for renewals or upsell.

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If anything, it was account managers who

typically rolled into the sales function.

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and so there was a world where

you could draw a connection from

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the account management community

to us, but typically in the post

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sales organization, it was support.

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Onboarding, maybe, professional services

if you hadn't had an offering there,

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but there was no relationship manager.

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After the deal was closed, who was

accountable to, you know, product

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adoption or CSAT or any of these

leading indicators to a renewal.

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so it was sort of like right

time, right place, I think.

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And by the way, on the mark, the marketing

lessons there, we got very lucky in that

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there was a role with a name that Was

a very like romantic idea who wouldn't

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want to make your customers successful.

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and so we had a lot of intangibles working

for us in that context where I appreciate

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it's a little bit more complex for other

companies that want to follow suit.

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justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

Well, it's an amazing journey.

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And maybe we'll then fast forward

from there to the problem that

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you're trying to solve for today.

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And we could perhaps start with

just a foundational question so that

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everyone listening is on the same page.

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what does it mean from your

perspective for a B2B company

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to act as a media company?

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anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

probably two different vectors for it

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because I think we've overemphasized.

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The media side of the conversation at

the expense of the owned part of it.

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We talked about owned media, more broadly

and I think that the broad consensus is,

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when we think about how we as consumers

are engaging with content today.

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We're either listening to a podcast,

just like this 1, we're following our

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favorite creators who are live streaming

on these different kind of platforms.

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we're watching short form video

clips on tick tock or in these,

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different feeds and we have this.

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New way of engaging with information.

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And then when we go to work, we're writing

SEO articles for search that are written.

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It doesn't matter if anyone even reads

it, as long as we stuff enough keywords in

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there that we can rank the page and drive

some traffic, to we're writing eBooks

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or white papers that are extremely long.

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and what we're finding is

there's this dissonance between

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what people are actually.

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Consuming and the type of

content that we're actually

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producing in the B2B context.

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And again, the consumer world way ahead of

us, the creator economy way ahead of us.

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And it just takes us a little

while to follow suit in, B2B.

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And so I think what we're advocating

for, isn't a new thing on that

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side, which is the idea that.

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We should be producing content in

the formats and mediums that are

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actually going to reach our audience.

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but people have been saying that for a

while, like that's not extremely novel.

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The idea that every company is going

to media company, I think is like a

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eight to 10 year old kind of mantra that

has existed long before we came along.

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The bias that we have is around.

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Leveraging that content, leveraging that

media, that exchange of value to build a

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direct relationship with your audience.

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And we call that owning your audience

or something of the like owned

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media, but said another way to build

subscribership to your content.

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And this is a trend we see again

with substack with patrion.

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We're seeing it now with the tool

called beehive that's enabling

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this on the newsletter surface.

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But the idea is that for too long.

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It's been really hard to cost

justify investment in video

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campaigns and everything.

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When we, YouTube or Spotify or

some of these spaces alone, those

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are important networks, but alone.

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And then we get asked the

question of, Hey, did that work?

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Did we generate any

pipeline from that podcast?

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Did we, and we get pushed around the

impact of these programs when the only

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channels that we're distributing them

on our channels that don't belong to us.

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And so what we're believing is that

the same trend that's happening in the

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creator economy with again, Substack

and other platforms is going to be

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making its way into businesses and

that we're going to be rethinking.

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becoming our own channel for content

distribution, still leveraging those

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other spaces, leveraging LinkedIn,

YouTube, and others to, you know,

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from an organic discovery perspective

to maybe some paid campaigns.

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But we want to drive people to our own

channel where we can both distribute the

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content, but also build subscribership.

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Because if we do one, we're no longer at.

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The throws of the algorithms that we don't

control in terms of actually showing your

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content to your followership to, we can

actually understand all of the data that

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today we don't get from web analytics.

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We get anonymous impression based data

from web analytics or YouTube will

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give us anonymous number of views,

Spotify, anonymous number of listens,

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but when you own your own audience and

they're engaging with your content on

329

:

your own surface, you can understand.

330

:

Behavior that can be modeled

in order to drive outcomes.

331

:

And so that modeling could be, Hey, this

is the type of content that's actually

332

:

from a topic or format perspective.

333

:

That's actually resonating with

specific cohorts of your audience.

334

:

create more content like this.

335

:

If you want to reach them or distribution,

you might say, wow, your email

336

:

newsletter actually isn't driving as

much engagement as you think it is.

337

:

Uh, it turns out.

338

:

Reddit or YouTube shorts or these

non obvious places are where these

339

:

people within your audience are

actually engaging with your content.

340

:

the net of all of this is now

we're rethinking how content

341

:

is actually generating revenue.

342

:

We're modeling that out and we're building

a sort of a brand new buyer's journey

343

:

that's Infused with first party data.

344

:

So we really think of this world as

almost the next generation of inbound

345

:

marketing, where it's different types of

content, different channels, different

346

:

formats, different ways to measure impact.

347

:

We think that that's really a good

thing that should keep happening.

348

:

It's just about 20 years old

and we've all been doing it.

349

:

and so inbound is a great way to

convert the 5 percent of your audience

350

:

that's in market to buy software.

351

:

We think that, own media or some language

or starting to adopt around audience

352

:

marketing might be a better way to capture

the 95 percent of your audience that

353

:

may not be ready to buy yet today, but

they're paying attention there within your

354

:

kind of ICP and you have an opportunity

to build that relationship ahead of

355

:

any would be commercial conversations.

356

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

The 5%, 95 percent split is a perfect

357

:

sort of tee off into the next thought

that I had, which is around the,

358

:

like the business school of this.

359

:

And when I hear you, how you're

describing your product, it's taking,

360

:

um, The concept of like media and

engaging with people and giving them

361

:

content that they want and then it's

fusing that with What have just become?

362

:

You know systemic marketing concerns

with like measurement attribution The

363

:

business justification, the ROI, which

of course all makes sense because we're

364

:

putting money behind it to do something.

365

:

And it highlights to me a very

significant difference between like

366

:

an actual media company and a B2B SaaS

company acting as a media company,

367

:

which is that actual media company.

368

:

They're just looking

to monetize attention.

369

:

As long as you watch, you get eyeballs

for advertisers, the world sort

370

:

of makes sense and we have a very

different sort of problem to solve here.

371

:

So I guess you've kind of suggested

the answer already that, that this

372

:

is a process of longer term brand

building, but I guess I would love you

373

:

to expand on why are we doing this?

374

:

what is the process through

which this media content

375

:

translates into business value?

376

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

Absolutely.

377

:

I mean, I think that the biggest piece

here is an appreciation that even

378

:

in the B2B context, we're selling to

humans on the other end of, of these

379

:

campaigns on the other end of every

contract signature, at least for now,

380

:

until AI totally takes over everything.

381

:

we're selling to people who, you know,

Want to learn and want to grow their

382

:

career and want to, you know, build

their skills and they want to belong

383

:

to something bigger than themselves.

384

:

And these are all very important,

emotional kind of levers that,

385

:

I think we've underemphasized as

an industry for a very long time.

386

:

And so our products and services

help them achieve sort of their.

387

:

You know, Maslow self actualization path.

388

:

Well, because we're helping them

do their job, get more efficient.

389

:

All of that content has a

really important role to play.

390

:

Community has a really important

role to play to actually support the

391

:

people within your, broader market.

392

:

And what's interesting is like when we've

said the word community, historically,

393

:

we've meant like our customer community,

like the bottom of the funnel, right?

394

:

The absolute bottom of the funnel.

395

:

but prospects.

396

:

Who may not be empowered today with a

budget to make purchasing decisions.

397

:

They're out there learning and

they're out there seeking information

398

:

and they're out there, you know,

looking for ways to get better.

399

:

and so what this represents, I think

this movement is an opportunity to

400

:

build a relational equity with an

audience where we've spent, again,

401

:

the better part of two decades.

402

:

Focused on transactional

customer acquisition.

403

:

And that matters.

404

:

Like, I'm not saying like, we don't

need a demo request form on our, on

405

:

our website or don't need to like,

capture the demand that's on the table.

406

:

But the reality is when we look around

today from like a marketing perspective,

407

:

not maybe not for everyone, but for

the most part, it's not going great.

408

:

For us, because we've all been

doing the same things and it's

409

:

just not working in the same way.

410

:

But if we go back to like, what is it

about marketing that we actually do

411

:

better than maybe any other department

is we help companies build relationships

412

:

between a brand or a CEO or a whatever.

413

:

And a broader audience, we help them build

trust and we scale that through different

414

:

digital programs and other things.

415

:

And so in many ways, I view this as a

Renaissance and a pull back to like the

416

:

original intention of, the marketing

team, which is really meant to, build

417

:

relationship for would be buyers.

418

:

and the other piece I'll just add is

it doesn't have to take a long time.

419

:

the challenge.

420

:

Certainly.

421

:

I mean, there is sort of

a relationships take time.

422

:

Trust takes time to develop in, our

personal lives as much as in work.

423

:

But when you have the sort of like

direct relationship, like folks have

424

:

subscribed when we do see a five to 10

X improvement in conversion rate, when

425

:

we lead with a subscription CTA, because

there's no commercial thing happening

426

:

there, it's more of, I'm here to learn.

427

:

I want to see more of

this type of content.

428

:

you can sort of see the impact a

little bit faster than you otherwise

429

:

would relying on the Google algorithm

to rank your page or drive the right

430

:

amount of traffic so that the growth

loops are a little bit faster.

431

:

But I think the point is valid.

432

:

Like you have to be consistent with

the content that you're producing.

433

:

It has to be good and valuable and not,

entertainment for entertainment's sake.

434

:

I think we've all seen some of that

maybe on, on social, has to actually

435

:

resonate and be authentic to your persona.

436

:

so I think that's kind of the thinking,

the philosophy at least behind the

437

:

impact of all of this, but the net net.

438

:

Is people aren't hitting

their pipeline targets today

439

:

brought in the broadest sense.

440

:

And so what you're effectively doing with

audience marketing is you're building the

441

:

pipeline for your pipeline as it were.

442

:

Um, you're building the relationships

that when those folks are ready to buy,

443

:

they're going to think of you first.

444

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

That's a good phrase, the

445

:

pipeline for your pipeline.

446

:

If you don't use that already,

you should, you should use that.

447

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: I

448

:

don't, so I'm going to

449

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

that's a good one.

450

:

it makes perfect sense to me and I'm

a, believer and I think, you know,

451

:

very much ties into this notion of

demand creation that is, I think

452

:

almost an industry standard phrase

now, though, Chris Walker pioneered

453

:

it over the past few years, I think.

454

:

And it's difficult to make a case

internally for that, particularly

455

:

where, you know, when you're not

hitting your pipeline, people want

456

:

to reflexively, double down on like,

put more into paid search, put more

457

:

into the things where I can just

insert coins and see things come out

458

:

the other end, which I think is a losing

game when you can't do that efficiently.

459

:

What are the metrics and what is

the like customer journey of sort

460

:

of archetypal customer journey

That you'd want to present.

461

:

Like, how would you pitch this to a

CFO and a CEO of like, we're going to

462

:

build this media company is going to

produce more pipeline and here's how

463

:

it will work and how we'll measure it.

464

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: Yeah.

465

:

I mean, I think one

nuance maybe up top is.

466

:

I think if you're pitching

the media company proposition,

467

:

it likely won't get approved.

468

:

because the question will always be

like, all right, so you're just going

469

:

to become like a LinkedIn influencer.

470

:

And all of a sudden we're

going to just hit our goals.

471

:

I would position it more as we're going

to focus on building our own audience.

472

:

Using media and events and these other

things in order to help us, effectively

473

:

built this first party engagement

data that we can leverage to drive

474

:

our campaigns kind of going forward

or future proofing our marketing.

475

:

Now, what I would start with as a leading

indicator up top is your conversion rate.

476

:

And so if I, if you built sort of

this, editorial, Property as an

477

:

extension of your website where

we're driving traffic to it.

478

:

We think that we see about a one to 2

percent conversion rate on get demo,

479

:

talk to sales, start using the product,

those commercially oriented CTAs.

480

:

We see an eight to 10

percent conversion rate on.

481

:

A subscribe CTA.

482

:

So the first way we'll know this

is working CFO CRO is we're going

483

:

to be casting a wide net within our

core ICP, within our audience of

484

:

people that want to hear from us.

485

:

And as they do that, we're now going

to have a direct line into them, as

486

:

opposed to, whatever LinkedIn does

to their algorithm and what, whatever

487

:

changes or name your social platform.

488

:

So the cost of distribution,

we're going to, Aim to capture as

489

:

much of our audience as possible.

490

:

So that gets as close to 0 as possible.

491

:

So there's an efficiency play there.

492

:

Second bit then is like creating some

of this content actually isn't as

493

:

expensive as some of these paid efforts.

494

:

I just think about what I've spent

historically on like out of home

495

:

advertising or, you know, connected TV

or whatever here you and I are today.

496

:

I'm not sure if it's zero, but

maybe close to 0 for us to have this

497

:

conversation from, two different cities.

498

:

it's getting cheaper to

actually produce great content.

499

:

And so the operating costs are

going to run a lot lower, than a

500

:

traditional kind of paid campaign would.

501

:

And so the, what I would say is what

we'll then be able to do is to map

502

:

impact across our target accounts

across, you know, all of these kind of

503

:

downstream, outcomes that we care about

both in the name of generating pipeline.

504

:

And so we'll want to be held accountable

to that pipeline target through.

505

:

All of these, efforts, but also perhaps a

bit further because if we're taking sort

506

:

of an individual or account based view of

how our content is actually impacting the

507

:

funnel, we can talk about things like how

we're impacting renewals or expansion or

508

:

helping drive more product adoption, any

of the other kind of leading indicators

509

:

to a renew, a kind of post sales outcome.

510

:

but of course, like revenue

is going to be king.

511

:

And so as we think about, Again, not

just generating pipeline, but how we're

512

:

deploying content into our own audience

of, contacts affiliated with opportunities

513

:

that are set to close this quarter.

514

:

Next, we can start saying, wow, these

are the topics that are interesting

515

:

to these 6 CXOs who are trying to

close in the next few, quarters.

516

:

Let's deploy a content campaign.

517

:

Directed at them.

518

:

Let's invite them to participate

in a podcast on that very topic.

519

:

We can start getting really like

precision driven around the type

520

:

of content that we're producing in

order to help impact those outcomes.

521

:

These are things we just don't know today.

522

:

We don't know what our CXO, type

of content they're consuming,

523

:

outside the context of our

kind of engagement with them.

524

:

And so the broader kind of.

525

:

Way I would approach the conversation

is like, what if we ran our team, our

526

:

marketing team, our revenue team, like

Netflix runs theirs, where they're using

527

:

audience data about their audience, like

their own, in order to inform production

528

:

decisions, distribution decisions, and to

be able to tell a better story on impact.

529

:

That's sort of the, I think framing

that we found our early customers

530

:

have been successful making.

531

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

and so to take it one level deeper,

532

:

thinking about like the metrics and

how you'd actually report out on this

533

:

subscribers, I think makes total sense.

534

:

everyone can measure that.

535

:

Everyone can understand that your next

step then is it, content consumption

536

:

metrics within target accounts?

537

:

It's like, all right, we have these

target accounts in our subscriber base

538

:

and they're consuming on average X.

539

:

Pieces of content or X minutes

of viewership per week.

540

:

Is that where you take it next?

541

:

Now,

542

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

we want to think through this one

543

:

a little bit more because in the

historical context, we had the MQL,

544

:

which was meant to be a combination of

firmographic and behavioral fit, right?

545

:

But the levers and the scoring was

completely at the discretion of,

546

:

marketing ops or whoever, you know, was

going, it was going to be driving that,

547

:

not, not, not pointing any fingers.

548

:

but you know, we have to think about.

549

:

How do you make that leading indicator

of, of some type of commercial outcome?

550

:

a bit more scientific perhaps

for lack of a better term.

551

:

And so I think a part of it is, is

there's some engagement scoring that we

552

:

have to introduce and we're, you know,

we're not ready to share anything here

553

:

yet because we're still in the lab kind

of thinking about it, but it's some

554

:

function of, are they someone that.

555

:

You should sell to, and then

are they consuming content?

556

:

Are they coming back?

557

:

Are they liking or commenting or sharing?

558

:

Like if we had all of the data that

YouTube has on our audience, you

559

:

know, how do we score that engagement

and monitor engagement on a week

560

:

to week basis, but tune the model.

561

:

Not just to driving more engagement

for engagement sake, but driving

562

:

engagement towards an outcome.

563

:

and that's, I think, the

future AI is going to really

564

:

have a big role to play here.

565

:

and your AI is only so good as your

1st party data that you feed it.

566

:

so that's kind of the way we're thinking

about helping solve this problem.

567

:

but I imagine it's some type of

data driven engagement score based

568

:

on, who they are and kind of what

they're doing in your network.

569

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

engagement data could be telling you,

570

:

I mean, it clearly does tell you how

much does a person like your content and

571

:

which content do they like, et cetera.

572

:

It may or may not be telling you

whether they are moving closer

573

:

towards that commercial outcome

that you're looking for, which.

574

:

Could be dependent on their

own, internal budget timelines,

575

:

replacing another product.

576

:

There's all sorts of factors.

577

:

if we think of the traditional funnel,

it's like, you know, a new content,

578

:

and then there's someone who's engaged.

579

:

And then if we think about that MQL, which

really indicates that they're ready for

580

:

a sales process, is it just sort of a

matter of having those little on CTAs in

581

:

various places within that environment?

582

:

Or is there another thing that

you're thinking about for that?

583

:

Um,

584

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

but also that's where the content

585

:

kind of production strategy kicks in.

586

:

Like, how do we start creating

later stage content and putting

587

:

those assets on our network?

588

:

And so we can start to monitor

folks that aren't just.

589

:

Interested in how to do X for my

profession, but how did this company

590

:

get value from using audience plus

or, product demos or use cases.

591

:

And you

592

:

start to see signals that are a

bit more aligned to buying intent.

593

:

But look at the end of the day, like I'm.

594

:

All in on AI and everything,

but like you could rear end the

595

:

car and be a jerk to your buyer.

596

:

And then no AI will ever

like figure that out.

597

:

Right.

598

:

So I think a part of this, two is

using this data as directionally

599

:

helpful as signals, but, know, you

still need that Human touch point,

600

:

I think, to really, uncover this.

601

:

Like, I don't think there's like

an autonomous marketing kind of

602

:

outcome here, anytime soon, at least.

603

:

and we're going to have to rely

on our, our sales counterparts and

604

:

customer success and others to help

us really paint the full picture.

605

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

makes sense.

606

:

And in a lot of ways, what you're

describing, it's sort of just taking

607

:

that notion of a nurture journey

where people are consuming different

608

:

types of content at different kinds of

stages and importing it into this much

609

:

more richer sort of three dimensional

multimedia environment where there's

610

:

just different types of content.

611

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

And that's where we draw the

612

:

connection to inbound marketing.

613

:

Cause I'm like, it's not wildly

different, but we're trying to like.

614

:

Mature and modernize inbound around

these new formats and new kind of

615

:

buying behaviors and expectations

of the market new channels.

616

:

it's a cognitive reference.

617

:

We already have around A practice, the

only thing I would add, and I don't want

618

:

to make a salesy or anything, but one

of the things to think about is like

619

:

the approach of how data is stored with

your traditional marketing automation

620

:

platforms is typically, every one of these

platforms is built on a static database.

621

:

And so what's interesting

about our approach is.

622

:

effectively building a self

adapting knowledge graph that

623

:

sits underneath all of this data.

624

:

So we can build connections

to different things that

625

:

otherwise might be less obvious.

626

:

And so how topics of content, consumed

in a specific channel for specific

627

:

personas, fit into some type of

different path in that nurture sequence.

628

:

That's sort of where we

think the technology has.

629

:

Uh, evolved since these platforms were

architected and we think there's a

630

:

better way to kind of put this data

to work in this next generation,

631

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: it's

kind of like the vision and reality,

632

:

you know, those memes where it shows

you like the idea and then the reality.

633

:

And I think whenever people graph

out a nurture, that's always the

634

:

vision is like, it's going to be

this multi dimensional adaptive,

635

:

whatever.

636

:

And the reality is drip, drip,

drip, you know, maybe you've

637

:

got two or three streams.

638

:

But yeah, I could see how, given

the right volume of data and

639

:

the right volume of content.

640

:

You could feasibly produce

that, sort of experience.

641

:

And thinking about volume of content,

um, you have, I think quite wisely,

642

:

taken a, like a partnership approach to

producing a lot of your, your content.

643

:

some folks on your team, some

folks, I think that, that you're

644

:

just partnering with that are

independent creators, but like all

645

:

the kind of folks that I tend to see.

646

:

In my LinkedIn feed, who, are going to

be, to be content creators about Drani,

647

:

Todd Clouser, I think he did a show with

Andrea, for more than the mops side.

648

:

you've really built a

universe with these people.

649

:

have you gone about doing that?

650

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

Well, important, confession.

651

:

less than 10 employees.

652

:

We're a very small company

punching above our weight.

653

:

So, I say that both in a way.

654

:

That suggests we have to rely on

a lot of other people, because

655

:

our internal voices are not, you

know, what have as many of them.

656

:

but also if a company with less

than 10 employees can do this,

657

:

anyone can, I'm pretty sure.

658

:

so I think the idea of using, the modern

language would be creators or influencers

659

:

to help create content, you Co marketing

with another brand on a webinar or

660

:

something along those lines or working

with an evangelist or even an analyst to

661

:

some context, this is just sort of the

next kind of chapter of of that same kind

662

:

of thing, does a couple of things for you.

663

:

First of all, it adds equity.

664

:

To your own brand and your own

narrative, because it's one thing if

665

:

I was out there telling the world,

you need to own your own audience.

666

:

And like, no one else said it

back to me that they were just

667

:

like, no, dark social is forever.

668

:

but having other voices, not just

validate that this claim that we're

669

:

making is true, but adding their voice

and experience to actually educate people.

670

:

The market makes audience plus looks

better at the parent level, because

671

:

we're the place for that conversation.

672

:

And I think given our, our conversation

today, this came from Gainsight.

673

:

This was straight up

the play at Gainsight.

674

:

We had a blog and we had other people

right on our blog that were practitioners

675

:

or executives in that industry.

676

:

And so we, as the very young company

weren't making a claim to be the

677

:

experts, but we were making a claim

to be the conveners of experts.

678

:

And so I think there's

something really powerful there.

679

:

I think given our new world now and

how influence is emerging, you also

680

:

get distribution in those partnerships.

681

:

And so these are people that

are going to be promoting your

682

:

narrative and perhaps even the link.

683

:

To your property to their LinkedIn

audience or to their kind of spaces.

684

:

And so that's a little bit of a growth

hack as well, because you're getting

685

:

their traffic sent to your property versus

you having to generate this traffic and

686

:

driving those conversions on your own.

687

:

And so building sort of this methodical

kind of creator program that is activating

688

:

those voices, is strategic and key.

689

:

Now, Over time, as our company gets

bigger, don't think it should be like,

690

:

whatever it is today, maybe 70 30 and

we should be more like, either 50 50

691

:

or 60 40 with our own content that,

you know, thinking about our bench

692

:

of spokespeople or, external voices.

693

:

and that's where I think.

694

:

The, as we talked about where the

cost of production is getting lower,

695

:

building an at home studio like this,

doing a studio in your office, uh, is

696

:

just not as expensive as it used to be.

697

:

there is benefit to over time

you and your brand being the

698

:

authority on a specific topic.

699

:

but again, maybe the last piece

I'll say it gives you scale.

700

:

you know, again, we couldn't do this

with eight people, whatever we're at now.

701

:

and publish content every day, but

at this point we are publishing

702

:

content just about every single

day with a team of one marketer on

703

:

board, activating the voices of all

of these folks within our community.

704

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

Well, it's very impressive.

705

:

and I know you, you

say it's not that hard.

706

:

It's not that expensive to produce

good content, but I, took a look

707

:

through your hub and you know the one

of the series you're doing right now

708

:

no sleep till brooklyn it You know

709

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

That was a little more

710

:

expensive.

711

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: say

that's that's pretty it felt high touch.

712

:

It felt polished.

713

:

there's obviously camera

people you know surrounding

714

:

the That's daunting maybe for some

companies that don't have that expertise.

715

:

They haven't done that before It's like

how do we start doing something like that?

716

:

You

717

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

I think it goes goes to

718

:

the creativity part, right?

719

:

Like, this is a documentary that we

created around building an event.

720

:

And from inception, basically

through to the event day.

721

:

Now that budget was mostly of

shooting at the event, which came

722

:

from our conference budget, which

we monetize through sponsorships

723

:

and ticket sales and other things.

724

:

I was sort of baked into that

program where I would say.

725

:

maybe 60 to 70 percent of all

that footage was captured.

726

:

So what we paid for, in addition to

that was a week of filming at our

727

:

offices in Phoenix, where we shot

the opening for the conference.

728

:

We actually did a parody video of no

sleep till Brooklyn by the Beastie Boys.

729

:

And we shot that there.

730

:

We did like customer testimonials

and a number of other things.

731

:

And so we used a week to basically

shoot everything we thought we could

732

:

with this amazing production team.

733

:

And out of it, we got so much more

than just that one show, which we're

734

:

now over the next six weeks, you know,

dropping a new episode every week.

735

:

we got things that, years ago

would have cost maybe, you know,

736

:

six figures plus to produce.

737

:

And everything I just mentioned was, 30

K something along those lines, maybe less

738

:

not including the onsite event stuff.

739

:

So the idea of 30 K for a six

episode series, it's terrible.

740

:

Don't do it.

741

:

Like that's a bad planning unless

you're a much bigger company maybe.

742

:

but the ability to get what we got out

of it because we were strategic with how

743

:

we used our production budget, helped

make it a little bit less daunting.

744

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

just one more question on the, tone,

745

:

the vibe, the formats of content that

you're using, or just that are common

746

:

out there as I was, writing the little

intro for this episode, it occurred

747

:

to me, like how much of what we're

seeing represents some kind of like

748

:

generational shift and sort of this

Gen Z energy I mean, I'm a millennial,

749

:

the formats and the ways of talking.

750

:

It reminds me more of what like my teenage

daughter looks at than what I'm used to

751

:

in the B2B world, what's going on there?

752

:

Maybe you can just comment on that.

753

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

I'm like you, I see some things on

754

:

LinkedIn that again, I don't want to

disparage, but it wouldn't work for me.

755

:

Let's put it that way.

756

:

Maybe it's like a little too

much entertainment and not enough

757

:

meat to some of the content,

that might be a generational

758

:

thing that very well could be.

759

:

I don't know.

760

:

Uh, and so I want to save some

room for that being, okay.

761

:

As you know, this next generation

of buyers get into the workplace.

762

:

but don't know that at least millennials

like us or whatever, Jen X, what came

763

:

before us?

764

:

I'm not even sure.

765

:

I'm not sure that they're making

purchasing decisions on some

766

:

of this edutainment stuff.

767

:

I think it's keeping

your brand top of mind.

768

:

It might give you a chuckle or something

as you're kind of scrolling your feed.

769

:

But I everything we

talked about breaks down.

770

:

If your content isn't good, and good is

subjective, what works for a marketing

771

:

audience may not work for a, engineering

audience or something of the like.

772

:

So what you have to create

has to be authentic.

773

:

It has to actually deliver value and be

educational, or inspirational or hit on

774

:

something more than just entertainment.

775

:

There's room for entertainment.

776

:

But it's got to hit on more, especially

if you want to capture today's buyers,

777

:

who, again, depending on your audience

may not yet be in this gen Z community,

778

:

but all that is subject to change.

779

:

I mean, I'm still listening to music from

the nineties and early two thousands.

780

:

And so it's, quite possible that I'm on

the wrong side of history on this one.

781

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

quite possibly.

782

:

I am too, but I have reflected like

Creating just content that is great

783

:

content, funny content, entertaining

content, is challenging in and of itself.

784

:

Doing it in a way that ties into a

brand, or that achieves a business

785

:

purpose, is like, next level difficult.

786

:

And I wonder sometimes, like I see

these skits and things on my feed, and

787

:

I'm like, Oh that's funny, I like that.

788

:

And then I'm like, I

remember the person I do.

789

:

I remember the brand that

they were even, that it

790

:

was related to or who I feel that

maybe has done a good job of this.

791

:

I look at like corporate bro and how

he's tied his content into what he

792

:

and Sahil are building at bravado.

793

:

I mean, he's just so good, like as a

next level talent in the first place.

794

:

And then it's a very

natural tie into like,

795

:

they're the community for sales.

796

:

So maybe that's a positive example,

but how do you think about that

797

:

problem of establishing that linkage?

798

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

it's of existential importance,

799

:

because people buy from people.

800

:

I think we've been

saying that for a while.

801

:

You had a bunch of likes and, you know,

on LinkedIn, if you say something to

802

:

that end, marketing should be more human.

803

:

It's true.

804

:

It should be, but literally the algorithms

are favoring individual accounts over

805

:

company accounts in terms of distribution.

806

:

So like there's a hard wiring in the

system that is making it harder to

807

:

actually build brand as an entity

versus brand as an individual.

808

:

so like, I think, I think you have

to find ways to, run into the wind

809

:

here and connect it because the

risk, otherwise you're like, Oh yeah.

810

:

Like.

811

:

I don't know, Todd's hilarious.

812

:

I'm never going to buy the

software, but I love following him.

813

:

And that's great for

814

:

Todd.

815

:

It's awesome.

816

:

He should, you know, he should do

something, you know, next after

817

:

this with, with the followership.

818

:

But I think, you've got

to find ways to do it.

819

:

find ways to connect.

820

:

And I think maybe our take on it is.

821

:

Some of the people, we have to use

LinkedIn, YouTube, these other channels

822

:

strategically to like be seen and

have followership for our people

823

:

and our P and we need to create a

bench of people who are going to be

824

:

doing that for us, including your

CEO, including, others around the

825

:

executive table, but the benefit to

sending that traffic back to your.

826

:

Website, which is a corporate entity

building subscribership with that person

827

:

and the entity, I think helps establish,

equity in that relationship as well.

828

:

So maybe there's an opportunity

here, but certainly it's important.

829

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:

Awesome.

830

:

probably last topic we have time for,

but I'd love to talk a little bit about

831

:

a golden hour and what you did there.

832

:

And I mean, I wasn't there, but I saw it

kind of play out on LinkedIn and the way

833

:

that it was positioned, even the name

golden, I mean, it's not your typical

834

:

like rah, rah, rah, marketing conference.

835

:

It was much more, um, Let's get inspired.

836

:

Let's, you know, sort of artistic.

837

:

It was a bit more of a laid back vibe.

838

:

It was intimate, deliberately.

839

:

So, you know, local craft

food, all that sort of thing.

840

:

really different than like dreamforce

million people, everything, you know,

841

:

how did you think it's, it sounds, I

can see now some of the roots of that in

842

:

your experience at Gainesite perhaps, but

tell us about the genesis of that event.

843

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: Well,

part of it too, was, you know, Gainsight,

844

:

we were optimizing around scale.

845

:

it was like world domination, right?

846

:

how big can this thing get?

847

:

How many people can we get into the venue?

848

:

And eventually it was like Moscone

center was like the dream of any tech

849

:

marketer is to fill out Moscone centers.

850

:

That's where Dreamforce it's held.

851

:

and then I went to hop in, for

a short period of time where.

852

:

I saw kind of firsthand the evolution

of the medium where events went to only

853

:

virtual, and then there was conversation

around hybrid and how that would work.

854

:

And so a lot of what I've been

learning is that events themselves

855

:

were changing, way people's expectation

of attending events was changing.

856

:

and so against at audience plus,

like, I definitely went back to.

857

:

The same playbook where I gained

said it was our first three months.

858

:

This is our first two years.

859

:

So I actually waited long enough

till we had again, seven full time

860

:

employees, I think, or whatever

it was to, to host a conference.

861

:

but there was definitely, again, as

our conversation has led us to like

862

:

this movement orientation to what we

were creating, there's a community

863

:

of early believers in this movement

and we want it to be the convener

864

:

brand to bring these folks together.

865

:

Um, But we wanted to do it in a way that

was modern because now, unlike customer

866

:

success, we're marketing the marketers.

867

:

And so we start to look at like, well,

what are the marketing conferences

868

:

of record today that people go to?

869

:

probably if not dreamforce, the thought

is inbound for HubSpot, which is built

870

:

on that again, old way of thinking

in terms of how many people can we

871

:

pile into here and what I learned at

Hopin is like, people don't travel.

872

:

For content anymore.

873

:

Uh, they travel for connection, for

experience, for exclusive access.

874

:

and it's going to be hard for any

brand to drive thousands and thousands

875

:

of people to an event anymore.

876

:

And we've all changed COVID has changed

our feelings and expectations, right?

877

:

Like, I don't know that I want

to be in a hall with a thousand

878

:

people, 2000 people or whatever,

like at least have given a choice.

879

:

Maybe I need to for

work, but I don't know.

880

:

Kind of rather not.

881

:

And so we're like, okay, if what

is the example of a marketing event

882

:

where the medium is the message where

it's not just the content from the

883

:

stage, but it's everything else.

884

:

It's the experiential kind of component.

885

:

And so that's sort of the original

idea and vision for golden hours

886

:

meant to inspire not just based on

the content and who was in the room,

887

:

but how the event was produced.

888

:

And so that meant.

889

:

picking a venue in a host

city that was non traditional.

890

:

We kind of got lucky with Brooklyn

won't be the forever home, but that

891

:

was sort of an example of a, you know,

I don't think any B2B conferences

892

:

that I know of happened in Brooklyn.

893

:

At least everything in Manhattan.

894

:

the hotel venue was very like artsy

and kind of hipster y and, you

895

:

know, felt very like experiential.

896

:

We kept it to 300 people.

897

:

We'll never have more than

300 people in any one city.

898

:

and.

899

:

Focused a lot on networking

and how we kind of curated

900

:

relationship building on site.

901

:

we invested in entertainment in year

one dinners at conferences or this thing

902

:

that only like the privileged VIPs or

speakers or prospects get invited to.

903

:

we set a table for every attendee

a seat at the table and sponsors,

904

:

speakers and attendees alike.

905

:

We're all, you know,

kind of treated the same.

906

:

Um, we had an entertainment kind of

hook as well around Lindsay Sterling.

907

:

And I think the biggest piece that

was the differentiator was, um.

908

:

The 300 people in the conference hall down

below had this exclusive experience, but

909

:

20 floors up, we built a broadcast studio.

910

:

And so we actually built a digital

broadcast, which was not just like hitting

911

:

go on the live stream and the main stage.

912

:

It was.

913

:

Sort of like a, you know, from E

from the red carpet or college game

914

:

day or kind of desk experience that

had exclusive conversations clips

915

:

from earlier in the day for what

you missed if you didn't attend.

916

:

And we broadcast it on LinkedIn to create.

917

:

A widespread kind of level of awareness,

but also hopefully FOMO because

918

:

people are like, I want to know how

that Colin Fleming keynote went.

919

:

You're like, well, you got to come

next year or wait until afterwards,

920

:

because all of this content is going to

be exclusive just for our subscribers.

921

:

So make sure you subscribe

in order to get access to it.

922

:

And what we found is in the

weeks after golden hour.

923

:

We had more subscriber growth week on week

than we did in the weeks building up to

924

:

the conference, by strategically dropping

content, in the weeks that followed.

925

:

So it was just year 1.

926

:

This was meant to be our like,

proof of concept, and already

927

:

some good ideas for next year.

928

:

but I think a lot of

these core principles are.

929

:

reflective of what the event

community is seeing in general as

930

:

things evolving and changing from the

inbound dreamforce models of the past.

931

:

justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: I love

that execution and driving it a they like

932

:

the desk experience and then driving it

back into your kind of subscriber base.

933

:

Is brilliant and it certainly

seems just if I observe the events

934

:

that people seem to really love

like winter spring or in more In

935

:

you know my world like mopspalooza

on the mop side or revops af in

936

:

the revops community these more

intimate events seem to be where The

937

:

winds are blowing so I know we've

938

:

reached time, but uh, this was

just a super cool conversation.

939

:

I love what you're doing It seems awesome.

940

:

And just wish you much success You We'll

have to check in again a little bit down

941

:

the road and see how things are going.

942

:

anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:

Sounds good.

943

:

Yeah.

944

:

Great conversation.

945

:

Thanks for having me on.

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