Shownotes
This enlightening discussion features Kate Huggins, a highly regarded legal headhunter at Leathwaite, who shares her invaluable insights about career progression, changing roles and job hunting in the legal field. The conversation takes a deep-dive into how to approach career progression including practical steps you can take to identify where you want to go in your career, how to put yourself in the best position to identify a new role and how to make sure you get it. Kate's professional journey and her experiences with coaching are also discussed, along with her top 3 pieces of advice to her younger self.
00:00 Introduction and guest background
01:52 Current state of the legal recruitment market
02.38 Kate’s experience of coaching
05:32 Career progression and identifying potential new roles
08:05 The importance of networking
11:14 Looking for live roles, establishing relationships with recruiters
12:50 The importance of LinkedIn
14:37 The key headhunters and advice on interacting with them
22:21 Crafting an effective CV
25:07 Strategic career planning
29:07 Three pieces of advice for my younger self
- A career is not necessarily linear
- Work with people you like
- Don’t let work become too all-consuming
Links to The Women’s Room – Legal Division:
- YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@Womens-Room-Legal-Division
I’d love to hear from you directly using the CONTACT link below about
Contact Me https://www.ericahandling.com/contact-me/
- any coaching questions you have or challenges that you’re facing
- any topics you’d like me to cover on the YouTube Channel, or
- if you have any suggestions about an amazing woman working in around the law I should interview on the Podcast
https://feeds.captivate.fm/womens-room-legal-division/
Transcripts
[00:00:00] Erica: Hi there. So today I'm really excited to introduce Kate Huggins, who is one of the premier legal headhunters in the city, currently working at Leith Waites.
[00:00:09] Kate actually helped place me as European General Counsel at Barclays in my move away from private practice, and we've remained friends ever since then. What I really love about Kate and her approach is that she's thoughtful, she's honest, she's practical, and she really gets things done. She's got real integrity and you can trust her to guide you wisely, which isn't something that can be said with such ease about every headhunter in the city.
[00:00:37] So although I'm usually acting as a coach on this podcast, Kate spends a large part of her time effectively coaching both candidates and firms looking to hire. And so I thought it would be great for this episode if we could have a more general discussion about coaching, but also how to think about career progression, when and if you might want to change roles, and also once you've decided what advice Kate would give you about how to go about finding that dream job.
[00:01:05] But first of all, Kate, it'd be great if you could give us a brief intro into you and your
[00:01:09] Kate: career. Thank you. And it's a pleasure to be chatting to you today. I'm not sure I have all the answers, but, I've certainly spent 20 years trying to guide lawyers, whether they're in house or private practice, through the next stage of their career.
[00:01:24] I think in terms of introduction, first up, I'm a working mum whose parents moved in with her during COVID and never moved out. So, Alongside juggling family life, I lead the legal and corporate governance practice at Leith Waite, have been with the firm for seven years, globally leading the practice for the last 18 months, and earlier in my career worked at a boutique firm called Hedley May.
[00:01:51] Brilliant. Thanks, Kate.
[00:01:52] Erica: And actually, it might be interesting just to get your take quickly on what the market's looking like at the moment, both in private practice and, in the in house world.
[00:02:02] Kate: Legal is surprisingly counter cyclical or non cyclical. good lawyers are always in demand. So I think the overall, the legal market is holding up very well.
[00:02:12] That said, there is an economic uncertainty. There are less IPOs. Private equity is very down. So I think, you know, firms are definitely looking at cost. They're being more conservative in hiring, and in house functions are very much being looked to kind of restructure and bed down what they've got than necessarily go to market automatically for a lateral.
[00:02:33] So I think it is slightly quieter, but good candidates will find great roles.
[00:02:38] Erica: Okay. Well, that's good to hear and hopefully reassuring for our audience. so my first question is really, have you ever had coaching in your career?
[00:02:46] Kate: I have. so I've had informal coaching throughout my career and including you, Erica, there are a number of individuals that I lean on for guidance at various points or depending on the scenario.
[00:02:57] I've had two formal coaching engagements. the first one I made the move across from Hedley May to Leathwaite, and was tasked with establishing the legal practice at a firm where most of the individuals thought that I joined to be their general counsel, as opposed to being a headhunter. And then the second when I transitioned to partner with the firm about four years later.
[00:03:18] Okay,
[00:03:18] Erica: brilliant. And then, so tell me what was your experience of it? Did you find it helpful? What was good about it? If there was something good about it?
[00:03:27] Kate: I think a lot of what you get out of coaching depends on what you put into coaching. I think it depends on whether you properly make the time to reflect and put into practice some of the takeaways from each coaching session.
[00:03:41] and And I think it also depends on how you mentally feel about, the goals that you're setting yourselves. I had my first coaching experience, I would say probably didn't achieve that much. my second, I would say has been absolutely invaluable, because I've had the ability to take a step back and really think about what I'm trying to get out of the relationship.
[00:04:03] Erica: Brilliant. Okay. And is it, is it really that. Ability to step back, that coaching gives you to step back and think a bit more strategically about what you're trying to achieve. Was that the most valuable
[00:04:14] Kate: thing? And having a safe space with, with no judgment. So I think, I think very often, and this doesn't just apply to, to legal, Professional work has become all consuming.
[00:04:25] You've got your, you know, your iPhone, you've got your emails, you've got WhatsApp, you've got podcasts, you've got the news, everything kind of is shouting at you seven days a week, particularly if you're also juggling a family. so having a space for 90 minutes, you know, every, every month or however often you meet with your coach.
[00:04:45] Where it's all about you and it's an opportunity to take a step back away from the day job away from the demands of deadlines and think about kind of the practice and where you're going and what you're trying to achieve, but you're doing so with an individual who doesn't have an agenda. They are purely there to challenge you, but challenge you objectively.
[00:05:06] And I don't think you get that from a manager or from somebody that works for you, because a coach is completely objective. And that, that's the valuable piece for me.
[00:05:15] Erica: Yeah. Brilliant. Or even a friend or a loved one there, you know, they all come at it with some sort of angle when they know you well.
[00:05:22] Kate: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:05:24] I definitely wouldn't be seeking guidance from my husband in the same way that I can seek guidance from a coach.
[00:05:30] Erica: As invaluable as his advice would be, I'm sure. so why, let's talk a bit about career progression. So if I was say, say I was about five years qualified, so still working in private practice and I came to you, I was big high flyer, doing very well, potentially on partnership track.
[00:05:45] but I said, you know, I'm not quite sure where I'm going with my career, what, what I want to achieve. What sort of advice would you give to someone like that?
[00:05:55] Kate: I think the challenge within private practice, is there's a very set out route that, that every lawyer goes through, whether that track is seven years, eight years, or 13 years PQE towards partnership, you're very quickly put into a lane that, you progress up to senior associate counsel or legal director, and then into the partnership, and the demands that that, that has on you in terms of billable hours, client relationships, portable practice.
[00:06:22] so I think the first thing that you should do is take a step back and think about what's important to you and what is it about the day job that you enjoy. you know, there are a huge number of options for, for lawyers in a way that there weren't. In contrast to 10 years ago, where the career route was very linear, of whether you stayed in private practice and progressed up towards partnership, or whether you went in house. to an internal legal team, there are a lot more opportunities available to a five year qualified lawyer.
[00:06:52] You are seeing a rise of boutique law firms, who are very entrepreneurial, and are taking on different sorts of cases, are structuring their legal advice in different ways. You are seeing much more commerciality coming into in house. So you can be more aligned to the business. There's a huge breadth around kind of moving into corporate governance, moving into ESG, moving into compliance and risk.
[00:07:17] So take a step back and really challenge yourself around what is it that is important to you. And then from there, you can start to have a conversation either with a coach or with a recruiter or with your friends around if I really like doing X, and if what gets me out of bed in the morning is Y, what are the some of the jobs and some of the opportunities that could be available to me?
[00:07:42] Yeah, because I
[00:07:43] Erica: think that's the difficult thing that most people find is like, what are the options out there? Like, it's quite hard when you're working hard in a law firm every day to know anything other than law firm life. So is that, is that just really about making sure you go out to your network and talk to people or are there other ways to find out what different options are out there?
[00:08:04] Kate: I'm biased because I'm a headhunter. But I genuinely think there is a valuable role that recruiters can play. So do build up your recruitment network and speak to people who are spending their days, you know, speaking to clients and doing searches for clients. So pick their brains on different avenues that you could pursue.
[00:08:22] Go to networking events. meet your peer group, because you'll, you'll, you'll hear about other stories, you'll hear other people's journeys, and that, that will kind of create inspiration for where you might like to take your role. and don't be afraid of talking to your leadership team, to your manager.
[00:08:40] you can do so in a way. that doesn't say to them, I want to make a job move. You can do it in a way of saying, I'm, I'm interested. I'm curious. I'm passionate about what more I can learn. What can I get involved in within my current role? That's going to teach me more.
[00:09:00] Erica: Yeah, okay. So that's a really, I think, because sometimes I do talk to people who, who want to move, haven't found the right role yet.
[00:09:08] and are feeling quite demotivated at work. And one of the things I quite often talk to them about is what can you suck out of the organization that's going to give you benefit or fulfillment? Like, you don't have to get it. All your fulfillment from your specific day job. Are there other things you could get involved in?
[00:09:25] Are there other skills that you can learn before you do leave? And indeed, you might decide not to leave if you start really, if you start really working out what else can the organization give you. I guess the same thing that you said earlier about, it's all about how much you put in will then dictate how much you get back.
[00:09:41] Okay. So build that network. And I guess one of our rules is always if you're talking to someone and asking their advice at the end, say to them, is there anyone else I should speak to try and get to other people to speak to? Are there resources like online? If people are looking at what options are available for a lawyer, what else could they do?
[00:09:59] Is there anything, would you send them anywhere online? Get them? Maybe they could ask Chat GPT. I don't know what that says nowadays about looking for a new role. but is there any where you'd send them?
[00:10:07] Kate: So I think the, it is a cliche, but the conferences, the legal conferences that are led by the FT, by the Economist, by Thomson Reuters, the lawyer, there's an awful lot of material out there in free webinars that law firms put on, around interesting topics that the lawyer, will put on.
[00:10:27] Sign up to those, listen, look at the topics, look at what people are talking about, because that inevitably will shape the future roles of tomorrow. Mm hmm. Yeah.
[00:10:36] Erica: Okay. Okay. And I guess there are a lot of options now because there are, I mean, I've, I've just got involved with a law firm that, employs, it's law, it's almost like a platform for partners and they have to have a specific amount of business that they bring to the platform, but there is this platform that supports them with HR and all the billing infrastructure, but also actually supports them with coaching.
[00:10:57] So that's quite a new structure that I hadn't seen before. And then quite a lot of these, temporary agency roles, either, either working on specific assignments or working for a few months and then leaving. definitely more options than when I was thinking about what did I want to do other than stay, stay in a law firm.
[00:11:14] So, so if someone's worked out that they would like to move, either they want to stay in house, move to another law firm, or they want to move, in house to in house or private practice to in house, have you got any advice about how they would start looking for actually live jobs? What's out there?
[00:11:33] Kate: Well, so the first thing I would say is you should build a relationship with a small number of recruiters, even if you're not looking.
[00:11:42] So don't, don't. associate a relationship with a recruitment consultant as only valuable when you're ready to make a move. Good recruitment consultants should be your friends throughout your career. As Erica and I now know, 20 years later, because they will be able to introduce you to other people.
[00:12:01] They will be able to share with you. kind of market data in terms of whether you're paid appropriately, benefits, information, opportunities across different geographies. They can really help you with your career, even if you're happy in your role. When you've made a decision that you do want to make a move, you can then go back to those relationships and say, I would now like to think purposefully about, and I think purposefully is a really key word.
[00:12:28] Don't dabble. If you've decided that you want to make a move, go to the market purposefully and partner with somebody that you trust. Be really clear as much as you can around what, what is on the bucket, what is in the bucket rather that some, that a job needs to offer you. And in contrast, what do you definitely not want?
[00:12:50] And then be open minded with any difficult market or down market. LinkedIn becomes critical both in terms of maintaining your own LinkedIn profile, but also looking for roles through LinkedIn as much as we would love LinkedIn not to be taking our recruitment jobs. If companies are being cost conscious, LinkedIn is a much cheaper way for them to go to market than to use a, use a search firm.
[00:13:16] LinkedIn works a little bit like Facebook and, and sort of the algorithms that sit behind a Google. If you are active on LinkedIn and you have a profile that has detail within it, and you are seen as going into LinkedIn and liking or following different channels, you will be jumped up to the top of the queue in the algorithms.
[00:13:38] When a LinkedIn recruiter. does a sweep against a role brief. So while it's completely cringy and it looks a little bit like right move, it is important that you look at your profile with an objective eye and think, if a recruiter was reading my profile against the sort of job that I would like to get, would I, but would I be impressive?
[00:13:59] Would it read well?
[00:14:01] Erica: Yeah. Yeah. That's really good advice. And, and, and sometimes people aren't aware that you can turn something on on LinkedIn that allows you to say that you're open to new roles and only recruiters can see it that, you know, so your boss isn't going to be able to see it or your, or your colleagues at work aren't going to be able to see it.
[00:14:18] I want to just come back to LinkedIn, but just going back to forming relationships with headhunters, because I think sometimes people don't even know. where to begin. would you say, and I quite often will be introducing some of my clients to headhunters that I know, but if you haven't got those sorts of relationships, would you literally go online and look up headhunters and ring in?
[00:14:37] How would you go about it?
[00:14:40] Kate: It slightly depends on what you would like to make a move. To do so, the in house market is very heavily dominated by six or seven key players and, and I can share a list, perhaps as an attachment that considered podcast of people to speak to on the in house side. It is very much dominated by the big global firms.
[00:15:03] So you have Spencer Stewart, Kornferry, Hydrick & Struggles, Russell Reynolds and Egon Zender. And
[00:15:11] Erica: they're called, I know you hear about the Shrek firms, that that's the Shrek firms that people talk about. Yeah.
[00:15:16] Kate: Outside of that, you have three extremely good boutiques. You have Odgers, Hedley May and, and Leathwaite.
[00:15:23] So if you are a senior lawyer looking to move in house between those, those eight firms, you are likely to find your, your next job. Private practice side, the market is much more fragmented and you've got everything from some of the dominant contingent players, like an SSQ through to one man bands that may be specialists in.
[00:15:46] corporate insurance or class action. again, I think the challenge with the private practice market is there are a lot of Sharks out there that will punch your CV quite widely around the market, and you want to find somebody that you trust, and somebody that's going to represent you in the right way.
[00:16:05] But again, in addition to Leathwaite, I can share a list of some of the individuals I think have got the right values and the right integrity.
[00:16:15] Erica: Yeah, so we'll put, we'll put a link to those in the show notes, which would be fantastic. and I guess a couple of pieces of advice that I often give people is number one, don't just make one call or one contact and then disappear because.
[00:16:29] you know, headhunters are very, very busy. They have an awful lot of people on their books and they're, they're trying to fill the roles that are active for them at the moment, but sort of trying to stay in touch on a reasonably regular basis, just so you're front of mind when something comes up, is one piece of advice I'd give.
[00:16:45] I presume you don't want to be irritated by people contacting you all the time, but again, you got advice about how often should they get in touch? What should they do?
[00:16:55] Kate: I think very rarely does anybody irritate. I'd see absolutely nothing wrong with a quick email or a quick check in call probably once a month.
[00:17:03] if you're actively looking, it can be once a fortnight. it, I'm sorry, this is the joy of being, working at home. We have a cat. I think we should
[00:17:12] Erica: leave
[00:17:13] Kate: that bit in. Sorry. so there's absolutely nothing wrong with, connecting. Very briefly, every couple of weeks, certainly every month, a quick email to say hi, a quick check in call.
[00:17:25] No , recruiter is going to begrudge that. recruiters are juggling a lot of things. And as you say, Erica, sort of almost chasing, chasing the client demands. So a quick, a quick WhatsApp or a message to say hi. Any update I'm still keen to catch up with you is well received because it reminds us to call you back.
[00:17:46] Erica: Yeah. Okay. And I mean, another thing I sometimes say to people is partly based on my experience is don't worry. If they sound a bit negative sometimes, if you're making a move that isn't really easy. So if you're trying to move into something brand new, where you haven't got experience, if you're not the round peg for the round hole, I think sometimes if you're talking to a recruiter who hasn't got a live job that they want to put you in, they can sound a bit negative and off putting about your chances.
[00:18:15] I presume because you don't want to raise false expectations, but I don't know. What would you say? That's what I tell people. Don't be put off. Keep trying. But I don't know if you got any, would you add any comments to that?
[00:18:26] Kate: I would, I would echo that and say, don't be put off, but I would also ask the recruiter, the follow on question, which is who can help me or who would you recommend I speak to because none of us will have all of the jobs in the market.
[00:18:40] It's a big market and there are a lot of recruiters. So if that individual isn't able to help. They will know individuals in the market who they're up against, or they've pitched for roles against, and they should be able to point you in the right direction. I apply this to all walks of my life, but it's through not to.
[00:19:00] If you speak to somebody, how can you use that conversation to go through it to somebody else that can prove helpful? Excellent.
[00:19:07] Erica: I like that very much. Three, not two. Okay, excellent. So on that, let's go back to LinkedIn. so again, I mean, I have to say. Even when I first came out of my full time job, like six years ago, I was pretty amazed that people managed to find me on LinkedIn without me doing anything.
[00:19:27] They literally, I got rung up by a headhunter who asked me about a non exec role. One of my non exec roles, at the moment is from a cold call from a, from a headhunter. So, so I would really stress to people the power of LinkedIn and how often, even when you're using a recruiter now, firms will post the roles.
[00:19:44] On LinkedIn? I mean, do you do that? If you, if you, if you've been hired for a role to find someone, will you put it on LinkedIn as well? I think at the level that
[00:19:53] Kate: we work at, and I would say the Shrek firms will work on the in house side, are confidential. So no, we wouldn't necessarily post it on LinkedIn.
[00:20:05] But I do think LinkedIn is becoming the default job board of the future, and we just can't get away from it. So, whether, if you're not on LinkedIn, it will severely hamper your ability to make a move.
[00:20:18] Erica: Yeah, okay. And then, and the other thing that I did, you know, and that I should do more often is spend a bit of time broadening.
[00:20:26] My network on LinkedIn, it's also really helpful because it suggests people that you might know and that you might want to connect to. one of the things that I found useful about having premium is apart from that, there's a sort of peer interest in who's been looking at my profile, which probably doesn't tell me anything useful.
[00:20:42] It's just interesting, but I can look at my contacts and see who their contacts are. And sometimes that's just really useful in terms of jogging my memory about people I did know or whose names I've forgotten or other people I've forgotten to connect to. So I'd always recommend that for people, but have you got any tips about how to broaden your network?
[00:21:02] Kate: The beauty of LinkedIn, and it's a little like Instagram, is that people like to be followed and people like to post what they're thinking. So actually the best way to your LinkedIn connections is to send people invites and to follow.
[00:21:19] Articles or, or forums that interest you. And you'll be amazed at how quickly people will A, accept those invites and accept those connections. But then we'll also post something and link you with somebody else that you can connect with at, at a basic level, people like to be connected. So if you just start getting involved, it will, it will grow naturally.
[00:21:43] Erica: And is it, is it important to post on LinkedIn?
[00:21:47] Kate: No. Okay. I, I, I think feeling the pressure to post actually can, can make main mean people sort of lean back. I think it's important to like a post. I think it's important to comment occasionally on individual's, good news, but don't feel the pressure that you have to come up with something inspirational and post yourself.
[00:22:09] Erica: Excellent. Thank you. and then, and then in terms of when you've actually, there's a live job you want to apply. Any advice
[00:22:16] Kate: about cvs?
[00:22:17] Be yourself. write it in your own way. I think people tie themselves up in knots sometimes, thinking that they have to write a CV in a particular way. Focus very much on what have you achieved. When you read it back, Does this paint a picture for what you contributed? Mm-Hmm. to that organization or to that role?
[00:22:39] I think a lot of the time we see cvs where it's a list of responsibilities. It's a job description. Mm-Hmm. . Flip that on its head. You need to write a CV that focuses on what did you do in that role? What were the outputs? what did you achieve? Yeah.
[00:22:56] Erica: Okay. I mean, I remember giving my CV to a coach, before I left private practice.
[00:23:02] and I had a, you know, I was thinking about, could I go into the public sector? Could I do something different? And she just said, this is the worst CV I've ever seen, unless I want to hire a derivatives and structures finance lawyer, in which case it's great. and she made me completely rewrite it. And I think it's what, as you say, and I, I try now to get people to do an introductory paragraph always about what's.
[00:23:23] Great about them, which again can be quite cringey. You just have to get over it and say, why are you great? What's your USP? But then say, ideally, what are your strengths? And then follow them up with how that's illustrated. So if it's execution, it's like being involved in some big project that you've helped deliver.
[00:23:39] So, so say what your strengths are, then say what's the evidence for it? And really all the detail about the. Which roles you've held, you push right to the end, and certainly things like exams and where you went to school, put them in a smaller box as possible is, is part of my, my advice. But make it easy to read because I know often when I was interviewing candidates, if I'm really honest, I'd be reading the CV when I was going up in the lift on the way to the interview.
[00:24:04] So you've got to make it easy to absorb quickly as well.
[00:24:07] Kate: And don't be afraid to lose the commentary from your early roles. Mm hmm. I think all too often we feel this need to kind of display everything. When you reach a certain point in seniority, what you did when you were 21 or 22 or 23 actually doesn't matter.
[00:24:25] As long as the company and the role is there, don't worry about all the blurb underneath. Are you, are you still
[00:24:32] Erica: telling people to put hobbies in? Because I always find that a bit cringey, unless someone's done something really interesting, but would you say put hobbies in? No, I
[00:24:40] Kate: think it's the cringe, and actually in a world where a lot of our clients are looking to blind shortlist, and what I mean by that is they don't want to know that somebody is married with 2.
[00:24:52] 4 children and is female. Actually, we, we would take the hobbies part out in any event because we wouldn't want it from a subconscious perspective to create any bias. Thank you.
[00:25:04] Erica: so just thinking a bit more about career progression. I mean, again, one of the great things about coaching, as we've discussed, is that taking time out and taking away from taking time away from the day job, thinking a bit more strategically about your career and your life, ideally with a with a thinking partner who doesn't have an agenda.
[00:25:22] But I find time and time again, that People don't invest time or don't set aside time to think about their career or invest in themselves, including doing research or reading articles that are going to help them further down the line. Is that your experience as well? Yes.
[00:25:40] Kate: and actually, arguably, I'm, I'm also guilty of that.
[00:25:43] in my, in my more recent years where I've, I have managed to crack this, I think a little bit better, is A lot of people think that strategic thinking needs to be put onto the calendar, where you're sitting at your desk between nine and five. You can do some fantastic strategic thinking while going for a run at lunchtime or walking the dogs 7am in the morning.
[00:26:06] so I've sort of pivoted a little bit and said, actually, my strategic thinking time will be through an activity that could be a dog walk. It could be a run, but make sure that you are away from the desk. You're away from the to do list. You're actually purposefully away from the screen and the usual setting where you would work.
[00:26:28] And at times that could be, you know, go into the garden on a sunny day with a clean pad of paper and a pen and, and just sit in a different setting and write things, write things down. But you need to be away from your desk where it doesn't work. And I see this so often is people will block an hour in their diary on sort of a Friday morning from 10 to 11 sitting at their desk.
[00:26:51] Your emails will ping, the calendar will pop up. It won't be proper thinking
[00:26:56] Erica: time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that you've got to, if you are, I mean, I, I would always advocate scheduling it if you can at various points, you know, even if it's four times a year, just take some time to think about your life.
[00:27:10] Ideally, like block out a day or half a day is I quite often get people to do that for other reasons, because it's amazing if you, if I block out a day in, in. It doesn't feel that painful and then it comes round and you've blocked it out and it might get interfered with a little bit, but you still got quite a lot of time, but definitely that time away.
[00:27:30] and again, I think people. tie themselves up in knots, thinking about, oh, if I'm going to create a personal strategy, or how do I do a strategy? And really it's like a, a to do list, and then plus an analysis of where you are on that to do list. So there are things you can do like wheels of life, where you can look at, Where's your satisfaction with lots of different areas of your life?
[00:27:50] You can work out what would you like to experience in your life and how are you, how might you get there? How are you trying to create opportunities to allow you to get to some of those areas you would like to experience? and then thinking about how much are you enjoying what you're currently doing?
[00:28:06] Are you fulfilled? Could you do less of something and more of something else? Could you add something in or take something out? But I, but it's that it doesn't have to be fancy. And I do have a, a sample of a, of a personal strategy document, but it's really nothing more than thinking like, what would I like to do and what am I doing at the moment and what's the gap
[00:28:24] Kate: really?
[00:28:25] And be honest with yourself. Some individuals have a plan. I have a very good friend who is a vet and he knows. That he is going to work in the same veterinary practice for the next 10 years, servicing the same farmers, looking after the same cows. Other people won't know where they want to be next year, let alone in 10 years.
[00:28:46] So be honest with yourself around how much of a planner you are, and then those plans accordingly. Don't create a mountain to climb. just, you know, figure out where the next style is that you want to get to and then make a plan to get to that style. Yeah,
[00:29:02] Erica: absolutely. Look at the next step, not the mountain.
[00:29:05] That's really good advice. Okay. So on the topic of advice, if you were going to give your younger self three pieces of advice, have you, could you have a think about what they might be?
[00:29:17] Kate: Three pieces of advice for my younger self. A very important woman once said to me that a lot of people assume that your career is a diagonal line that consistently goes up, and each year you need to be making another step forward, whether it's in pay or in role profile. The reality is that your career goes in a wave.
[00:29:37] There'll be moments where you stake a steeped position. step up, there'll be moments where you plateau. And there are also very valid reasons and times where you want to take a step back and drop down a little. And I think being really honest with yourself. each year. Is this a year where I would like to move up?
[00:29:55] Is it a year where I want to stay stable? Or is it actually a year where I want to take a little bit of a step back and look after myself a bit more, take my foot off the gas? And that's okay. You don't have to progress your career in a consistently linear fashion. I think the other piece of advice is surround yourself with people you like.
[00:30:16] life is too short to be working with somebody that you don't like. so if you find yourself sitting amongst an individual, a set of individuals that don't share your values and you're struggling with that, don't be afraid to make a jump and change that set, that situation. And a third piece of advice is don't allow the rat race, I think, to take over what's really important from a family and a hobby.
[00:30:42] And a personal interest perspective, the current economic climate, and ways of working means that work is all too easy to become completely all consuming. but schedule in that trip to do the school run or knocking off early on a Thursday to go and play basketball or go for a run. the, the corporate world won't fall over because you're taking a bit of me time to focus on your family and your friends.
[00:31:08] Erica: Yeah, those are fantastic pieces of advice, Kate. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you'd like to, that we haven't covered in terms of career progression, actually getting that new role, or have we covered it all, do you think?
[00:31:21] Kate: I think everyone is different, and I'm always happy to have a chat, with somebody and point them in the right direction.
[00:31:26] Even if I can't, help you, I can point you to, to somebody that probably can. and I think, don't be afraid to Ask questions and ask people to help you on your journey.
[00:31:38] Erica: Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you.
