Artwork for podcast Making a Monster
07: Dagon, Demon Prince of the Shadowsea - Alex Clippinger
Episode 729th September 2020 • Making a Monster • Lucas Zellers
00:00:00 00:13:34

Share Episode

Shownotes

Alex Clippinger brings H.P. Lovecraft's first published monster, Dagon, to 5th edition D&D. We track how monsters become "dungeon and dragons-ed", and explore how game mechanics imitate the experience and intent of the cosmic horror genre.

Get a free copy of "Go for the Eyes!": https://scintilla.studio/monster-07-dagon-alex-clippinger/

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/scintillastudio

Join the conversation: https://www.twitter.com/sparkotter

Meet my guest:

https://twitter.com/Aclippinger

Ezmerelda's Encyclopedia of Evil:

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/319231/Ezmereldas-Encyclopedia-of-Evil?affiliate_id=1485089

Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com

Transcripts

Alex Clippinger:

Dagon lives in his own little layer of

Alex Clippinger:

the Abyss called Shadowsea.

Alex Clippinger:

I definitely envision it as very Marianas-trench style, dark, crushing

Alex Clippinger:

pressure, a very oppressive, and so, so strange, the way that, we don't

Alex Clippinger:

necessarily understand everything about our own ocean to the point where.

Alex Clippinger:

It feels very, very alien.

Alex Clippinger:

when you first encounter Dagon , there are all these different structures and,

Alex Clippinger:

and, horrible demonic architecture and things that have been constructed,

Alex Clippinger:

all these, obelisks and pillars, that have been built under water.

Alex Clippinger:

And at one point you think that there's just another one of

Alex Clippinger:

these massive structures in the distance until it shifts and moves.

Alex Clippinger:

And you realize that , this horrific gargantuan shape, this form coming towards

Alex Clippinger:

you is the shadow of Dagon himself.

Alex Clippinger:

I'm like a "shiny object" person and like the new, the newest thing

Alex Clippinger:

that I'm working on is always the thing I'm most excited about.

Alex Clippinger:

it's Obyrith those are some Good old kids from like third edition that

Alex Clippinger:

I've updated for fifth edition.

Alex Clippinger:

I was excited about them because they're really mean they're just incredibly mean

Alex Clippinger:

creatures and it's fun designing CR 23 creatures with horribly cruel abilities

Alex Clippinger:

for killing high level characters.

Alex Clippinger:

It's always just a great time.

Alex Clippinger:

it's funny.

Alex Clippinger:

I can, I will design and sell, high level, player- killing monsters

Alex Clippinger:

all the time, but I've, I've killed like one - I've killed one PC ever.

Alex Clippinger:

There are times where I was like, Oh, is this too much?

Alex Clippinger:

do I need to pull some punches here?

Alex Clippinger:

And then the longer I was running characters that, tier three or higher,

Alex Clippinger:

it's I need to make it harder actually, because they're doing it just too well

Alex Clippinger:

. what incredibly mean crazy things can I throw at them because I'm just going to

Alex Clippinger:

sit back and watch them conquer it every time, no matter what, they will always

Alex Clippinger:

find a way to do it, which is, which is a rewarding experience in itself.

Alex Clippinger:

I actually finished this monster design and all this stuff.

Alex Clippinger:

Probably a good four or five months ago, but I keep just thinking

Alex Clippinger:

about Dagon , people have probably traditionally heard that name,

Alex Clippinger:

associated with the cosmic horror entity.

Alex Clippinger:

I just, I like , the approach and the tone a lot of times.

Alex Clippinger:

one angle for horror is investigative, where we as readers are asked to go

Alex Clippinger:

along with the protagonist, go along with the storyteller and have, these horrors

Alex Clippinger:

or these terrible things revealed to us.

Alex Clippinger:

And we usually do that kind of hand in hand with the voice of the protagonist.

Alex Clippinger:

They are also experiencing these horrible revelations and things like that.

Alex Clippinger:

And I think cosmic horror really enjoys leaning into that.

Alex Clippinger:

When horror does that sort of flip from what's going on to, "Oh my God,

Alex Clippinger:

this is what's going on I feel like it flips a lot harder with cosmic

Alex Clippinger:

horror because it's not just, Oh my gosh, this person is a murderer."

Alex Clippinger:

It's stripping away our very basic understanding of reality

Alex Clippinger:

and, things beyond time and space and things that are beyond our

Alex Clippinger:

comprehension beyond description.

Alex Clippinger:

So it, it really does that flip in a much more dramatic, fashion than, other

Alex Clippinger:

horror genres even other horror genre is that engage with the supernatural.

Alex Clippinger:

It's actually translated over in Monster Manual II; that's like

Alex Clippinger:

first edition Dungeons & Dragons.

Alex Clippinger:

There's a lot of legacy monsters today.

Alex Clippinger:

I mean, fomorians and everything are from world mythologies.

Alex Clippinger:

And I think with each subsequent edition they've become more "dungeons

Alex Clippinger:

and dragons-ed", where they say, "Okay, okay, we're going to pull them a little

Alex Clippinger:

bit further away each time from the myth that they came from or the real word

Alex Clippinger:

world origin and root them more and more firmly into, yeah, but it might have

Alex Clippinger:

shared the same name or have the same concept, but like this is a D&D creature."

Alex Clippinger:

We want you to feel like it's not just ripped from the page of some

Alex Clippinger:

other book or some other mythology.

Alex Clippinger:

There are aberrations and cosmic horror entities in D&D, and

Alex Clippinger:

they exist in the far realm.

Alex Clippinger:

You would think, if they wanted to firmly keep it as a kind of

Alex Clippinger:

Lovecraftian creature they would, they would do a Far Realm thing.

Alex Clippinger:

But I think they made a very conscious decision to pull Dagon out of that context

Alex Clippinger:

and into something completely different to make it a sort of D&D creature.

Alex Clippinger:

Dagon , is.

Alex Clippinger:

often presented in art as this long, sinuous, eel-like creature,

Alex Clippinger:

but it has limbs with clawed, with these massive clawed fingers.

Alex Clippinger:

It gives a very distinct sense of being an aquatic creature.

Alex Clippinger:

but not necessarily obeying the laws that we normally associate with it,

Alex Clippinger:

like having almost humanoid like limbs that clearly aren't meant for swimming;

Alex Clippinger:

these many, bulbous eyes are sort of embedded into the sides of its head; and

Alex Clippinger:

of course, you have to have the "Jaws" element of , the massive gaping maw.

Alex Clippinger:

The moment where the light hits.

Alex Clippinger:

Part of Dagon just right or glimmers off, off of its eyes and this

Alex Clippinger:

horrible realization of, Oh, that's that's him like that is real, this

Alex Clippinger:

the kind of moment where it's God, I hate to say it, "That's no moon!"

Alex Clippinger:

Yeah.

Alex Clippinger:

But like the, the very moment where it's like, Oh no, that's, that's real.

Alex Clippinger:

First I guess the most important one, regional effects: spells and other

Alex Clippinger:

magical effects that allow a creature to breathe water, do not function within

Alex Clippinger:

Dagon's lair unless it allows them to.

Alex Clippinger:

So at any point, Dagon's just like "That - no, you don't just

Alex Clippinger:

get to breathe under water."

Alex Clippinger:

which is, yeah, that's a lot.

Alex Clippinger:

And then its lair actions have things like, a whirlpool surrounds day gun

Alex Clippinger:

creature spend extra movement while swimming, which is already a thing that

Alex Clippinger:

if you don't have something that allows you to swim, it's already extra movement.

Alex Clippinger:

So instead of, moving 30 feet, you're moving essentially you're

Alex Clippinger:

moving to 10, which can be incredibly, crushing in a fight.

Alex Clippinger:

layer action, shockwave ripples from Dagon throughout the layer, each creature

Alex Clippinger:

holding its breath must succeed on a DC 23 constitution saving throw, or

Alex Clippinger:

have the air force from its lungs.

Alex Clippinger:

Which is very, very mean and yeah, it's very mean, and just, Oh yeah.

Alex Clippinger:

Each one was unique to the, specific demon Lord it was referring to, and

Alex Clippinger:

I did the same thing here, and it has a lot to do with, guess what?

Alex Clippinger:

Drowning, because you're in an, a plane of the Abyss that is

Alex Clippinger:

just a horrible, deep dark ocean.

Alex Clippinger:

the way the madness , tables work is they're like character statements and

Alex Clippinger:

first person and one of them is "I don't feel sane unless I'm immersed in water."

Alex Clippinger:

Which can have very, very nasty role play meets mechanics, effects, for someone.

Alex Clippinger:

And none of those things are even things that damage a player, and none of them

Alex Clippinger:

are even part of the actual stat block.

Alex Clippinger:

And then one more fun, little aquatic specific thing.

Alex Clippinger:

When Dagon is in a body of water and knows the precise location of

Alex Clippinger:

any creature within 120 feet of it that is in the same body of water.

Alex Clippinger:

So no, you cannot hide from Dagon.

Alex Clippinger:

You're in Dagon's domain.

Alex Clippinger:

He is a aquatic, demigod-level creature, like he knows where you are.

Alex Clippinger:

Okay.

Alex Clippinger:

So, yup.

Alex Clippinger:

Yup.

Alex Clippinger:

That's, this is all the fun mean stuff that I come up

Alex Clippinger:

with for high-level creatures.

Alex Clippinger:

So I'm sorry.

Alex Clippinger:

Yeah.

Alex Clippinger:

Yeah.

Alex Clippinger:

I think the goal that I had once I lit on the idea of, "Oh, I want to

Alex Clippinger:

play with drowning rules" - nobody really thinks about drowning or

Alex Clippinger:

suffocation rails and there's a lot of little corners of, of the rule set.

Alex Clippinger:

The people don't really have to think about or engage with very often, how

Alex Clippinger:

long a character can hold their breath.

Alex Clippinger:

Even thinking about swimming, and so I thought, how can I make, how can

Alex Clippinger:

I specifically make this water-based creature challenge players in a

Alex Clippinger:

way that asks them to think about rules and challenges completely

Alex Clippinger:

separate from their hit points.

Alex Clippinger:

Because if you run out of air in the rules, you hit zero hit points and you,

Alex Clippinger:

you start rolling death saving throws.

Alex Clippinger:

You could have a thousand hit points.

Alex Clippinger:

It doesn't matter if you cannot figure out how to solve the problem

Alex Clippinger:

of, , how to breathe under water, or like how it's you out smart, the

Alex Clippinger:

sort of affects that otherwise would prevent you from breathing under water.

Alex Clippinger:

none of your hit points, none of your stats mean anything.

Alex Clippinger:

And I think the solution to that, ideally, in a campaign where Dagon

Alex Clippinger:

is featured as like either the main villain or just a villain in general,

Alex Clippinger:

players could ideally ignore half the stuff that I've done here because a DM

Alex Clippinger:

has broadcast these dangers to them.

Alex Clippinger:

And like they've engaged with the mechanics of researching Dagon,

Alex Clippinger:

or like, finding out the secret.

Alex Clippinger:

I think all of the things about, knowing is half the battle, is accentuated with,

Alex Clippinger:

very, very high level monsters, more, even more so than, than lower level, creatures.

Alex Clippinger:

this is a way for DM to say, okay, I'm going to challenge you in a way that

Alex Clippinger:

you have probably never been challenged before with rules that you never

Alex Clippinger:

really necessarily thought of before.

Alex Clippinger:

And I don't - you know, the mean way to do this is, "Oh, you, you show up in a

Alex Clippinger:

watery area, you fight Dagon, you die", which is not how I want a creature like

Alex Clippinger:

this to be run - as a creator or as a DM.

Alex Clippinger:

I want the dangers and the existence of this thing to be broadcast.

Alex Clippinger:

I think a lot of teams will get a lot of pleasure out of presenting this

Alex Clippinger:

problem and just sitting back for 30 minutes and crossing your arms and

Alex Clippinger:

smiling while players are just trying to figure out, how do we deal with this?

Alex Clippinger:

how do we even engage with this before initiative is even rolled?

Chapters