Longevity creates opportunity, and blind spots no one budgets for. Hear InvestInU CEO Jonathan Ainsley on the unexpected costs families miss and how you can guide clients with confidence.

If you’re interested in learning more, please visit: longevityplanning.me

I’m John.

And I’m Julie.

We’re the hosts of the Hartford Fund’s human-centric investing podcast.

Every other week, we’re talking with inspiring thought leaders to hear their best ideas for how you can transform your relationships with your clients.

Let’s go!

Jonathan, welcome back to the Human Centric Investing podcast. It’s so great to be here with you today.

Well it was great to be back, Julie, and to see you as well, John.

Well, Jonathan, welcome back. And you know, every time we have you on the podcast, we kind of want to know all the latest and greatest about longevity planning. But today specifically, we really want to talk about the topic of ageism, whether it’s things that we’re doing when addressing our clients that we may not realize, or maybe it’s ageism as far as how the clients view themselves and how we can help them. So Jonathan, I guess my first question is, you know, when we think about people as being longevity illiterate, and here I’m speaking about clients, what do you mean by the fact that many people are illiterates when it comes to longevity and its implications, and why do you think that happens?

Well, I think, John, we’re working on a model of retirement that most of us have been wired to, centered on 65 that’s nearly 100 years old, and even those in their 20s, 65 is a significant number. So that’s what we’ve been working off. Yet the reality is many are living far longer than they expected. And so since I last saw you both last year, I was the keynote speaker for the Florida Council on Aging’s annual conference. And working with them, they recognize that ageism itself, those most guilty of it, are we ourselves. It’s the negative stories we tell ourselves, the low expectations. And just to bring that home, I last week did a presentation at an elder law symposium here in Orlando. And in working with the attorney beforehand, I was curious about wanting to learn more about what is elder law? What is it that you do? And she said, well, we ask clients how they want to age. And I immediately said, Well, how does that go? And she says, they haven’t got a clue. So that’s the consistent theme. There’s the fear and the frailty. And really, the difference with longevity planning is looking beyond the fear, and the fragility, and the uncertainty, and not having a clue, so that’s longevity illiteracy to the reality. Where now when I do presentations, I will ask the audience, I’ll start by saying, you don’t need me to tell you that many are living far longer than they expected, and would you put your hand up if you have a family member who’s made it to at least 80, even if there’s not still around? And every hand goes up these days, and then what about 90, probably about 70%, and then I’ll try 100 and some hands stay up. And then I’ll say, and it’s probably fair to say, that most of them did not set out at an earlier age with the intention of doing so. They did it more by default rather than by design. So that’s the sort of play space we’re in, is this uncertainty anchored to 65, what I call 65 plus plus plus, rather than the recognition of, okay, I’m 65, I may have another 30 plus years to go. How do I reframe and redefine that to live it successfully?

So let’s talk about how do we get a clue around longevity? What are the opportunities and what should we be thinking about when we think about life after 65 and beyond?

Well, we’ve just done a little promo video. And in that, I actually position, if you think about 20 to 60 and 60 to 100 as being the same time frame, e.g. 40 years, what happens if we start looking at 20 to sixty as just the warmup and the real performance of our lifetime is 60 to a hundred. And what I mean by that is I look back and think, gosh, when I was 20, compared to when I turned 60, I have this know, ream of experience, knowledge and wisdom, hopefully, you know, reaching 60 compared to where I was at 20. But again, because of the wiring and the conditioning to see 65 more as a finishing line, when you flip that, and you know this is not about living forever, it’s about living longer better. But when you start positioning it in those terms, you start opening up a new space when you start asking. I think the second workshop that I ever did was in the villages. And at the end of that, a 65-year-old wrote, this workshop is about the next 40 years, not just about the dollars. Well, how many 65- year-old men, all women, are considering what the possibility of the next forty years might actually be? And once you open up that space and look beyond the fear and the frailty, you’re then mapping into the opportunity that is there once you start looking for it through intention.

So Jonathan seems to me like one of the things we need to work with with our clients is to kind of unmoor that anchoring to age 65 as the kind of the pinnacle and from there it’s just downhill, it’s just a matter of how long it takes. I mean, when I think about it, I know there was a period in our history Where to be retired was like the worst thing anybody could say to you because that meant you were burden on others and then we seem to go to the other extreme which was to be retired was the best thing that can happen to you because you just kick your feet up it was rest, relaxation, golf, tennis, swimming until you can do it anymore and that was supposed to last five to seven years. How do you now position, how do you unmoor people from age 65? Are there things you ask them to consider? What do you think about the role of work? I know it’s probably multifaceted, but I’m interested if we’re trying to cut that anchor line from age of 65, how do you begin the conversation?

Well, John, that’s such a great question, because when I was first asked to put the workshop together, it was really an exercise to seek feedback from clients for advisors on the topic of longevity. And the general theme around, you know, asking someone, hey, let’s talk about your aging, is generally met with, yeah, let us not and say we did. You know, it’s intimidating. I’ve had folks in their 20s and 30s saying it’s frightening. So. In creating the initial workshop looking initially for feedback, but then right from the very first one, it was very apparent that it was actually flowing the other way. The clients were engaging, but wanted more. And so as it’s continued to build, and since we last spoke three years ago, the incremental building of the program. So it’s interesting seeing what people come back at me with, e.g. What’s important to them. And so we took what I originally looked at as the four pillars of flourishing longevity, flowed them into six, and have created a flourishing longevity scorecard, for instance. So that’s looking at mindset, physical health, metabolic health, purpose and fulfillment, the importance of community, having the right people around you, and then financial education and financial fitness. So part of what we’re up to is supporting advisors in doing the heavy lifting, because there’s this balance around, you know, advisors live in a much more onerous world, especially when it comes to compliance. So in building the program, as we’ve done in the B2C frame, we help support the heavy-lifting, because if a client takes, for instance, the Flourishing Longevity Scorecard, and that’s preempted. I was actually following the Florida Council on Aging last year. I had the honor of being keynote at the Alzheimer’s Educational Conference at FSU College of Medicine earlier this year, and they recorded it. So we’ve taken the introduction of the recording, the first 25 minutes, put that into the B2C as that introduction, helping shift mindsets from ones of fear and frailty to opportunity and promise. So, and then look at the flourishing longevity scorecard, you’re able to sort of map out, well, how are you doing within these sort of somewhat parameters? And I use those words carefully because, you know, there’s a lot of work going on out there in the longevity space, but you’ll find those commonalities. So the six I’ve referenced, you know again, they’re commonalities and you may find variations on the theme out there elsewhere, but nonetheless, when people take these 60 questions, 10 for each of the six sections, simple yes, no answers, then you have a framework to be able to help sit down with a client as an advisor to actually explore in a more in-depth manner of what’s really available and not just mapping into the financial situation because there’s the opportunity side.

That’s so interesting, the Flourishing Longevity scorecard. For our listeners that haven’t seen it or haven’t accessed it, will you share with us a little bit more about how it looks? So it sounds like it’s 60 questions, 10 sections, 10 questions per category. Does it give you a total score for each and then stack rank where the greatest opportunities are? How, from a financial professional perspective, would that output facilitate a really meaningful conversation on some of these areas that you mentioned?

Well, first off, Julie, come back to the longevity illiteracy. So it’s helping support the advisor in address the client’s longevity illiteracy. So by getting the clients to engage, you then have those 60 answers, in this case, to hand. But then you can start going through. And again, I spent, well, really the last 20 years, five at Schwab as a relationship manager working in the field. And then also over a Merrill Lynch, seven years in the field going desk to desk, I know exactly what the advisor’s world looks like. You see their pain points, you experience those things and what was needed to help move the dial. So part of this is actually having the clients engage. So again, addressing their longevity illiteracy, but then once the, and actually asking them even before they go back to the advisor. Of being able to look at, let’s say you’ve got 20 no’s out of 60, and you’re right when you say you got a score for each of the six, and then you’ve gotten an overall score. But let’s see you have 20 noes out of sixty. Well, rather than sort of overwhelm and say, right, what you’re going to do is now take a look at your results, select three no’s that you think you have most benefit from focusing on converting to a yes. And what would you need to do to convert them to a yes? So again, if the client’s doing that for themselves, but then sharing with the advisor, the overall scorecard and the advisor. We’ve just created a 12 module training program, longevity advisor training program. And the first four modules are all about the advisor looking after their own flourishing longevity and their inner circle and loved ones. So they’re actually getting a level of competency. And addressing their own flourishing longevity, which again, is a big deal in the industry when you look at the data points of what’s anticipated over the next 10 plus years and the whole thing around succession. So again, we’re looking to help provide support to the advisor and the training so that they learn how to effectively engage with the clients.

Jonathan, when we talk about, you mentioned the words fear and frailty. I’m wondering from a psychological perspective, where did those notions come from? I think to myself, is it because, you know, I remember back to times where various family members towards the end of their lives had a very difficult time. And it was almost overwhelming emotionally at times. And when we think back, I tend to not think about the 20 years that preceded those moments. Is it such an emotional issue, those end-of-life issues that it kind of flavors everything? Or then I go back and say, or is it the way the world looks at us when we’re retired? Does the world look at us and say well, you’re retired because You got tired of doing what you’re doing or maybe you ran out of runway in the field you’re in or like how do we battle back against those kinds of notions which almost seem to come naturally to younger generations or maybe people who are still working.

Well John, I think that’s one of the most fun things of what I’m discovering on this journey I’m on because I reference my grandmother for starters who spent pretty much 30 years promising me that each year was gonna be her last because she was too old and frail to go on and made her to just shy of 101. Now baked into that, if you think, she’s born around 1900, so she used to talk about the workhouse. So the backstop. Of what’s gonna happen to you, the fear dynamic there. So that also maps into how many of that generation experienced the Great Depression. And of course, this model of retirement was started during the depths of the depression. So the allure of retirement was sort of lurking out there with this uncertainty. And then of course the stereotyping. How many jokes are there out there about how sprightly 90-year-olds are, typically the stereotypical vision. And indeed, on the other side of the fence, my other grandmother, when I last saw her six months before she finally passed in her early 90s, she didn’t recognize me. And I had a bit of a meltdown. So I said, look, we don’t keep animals alive like this. Why are we doing this for humans. So you’ve also then got this dynamic that, you know, in the US we have the highest per capita expenditure on so-called healthcare, although only two and a half percent of healthcare expenditure is preventative. So the other 97.5% is managing our sicknesses. That maps into 12.4 years of chronic illness. So again, if you, you know, the average is 12. 4 years of Chronic illness, most of us probably experience seeing someone with chronic illness out there. And that also flows into AARP earlier this year coming out with a report saying that caregiving has gone up nearly 50 well actually 50%. So in 2015, you had 39 million Americans providing caregiving to an adult to an adult. That is lept to 59 million in 2025. So you know, there’s a crisis lurking out there. I believe there’s now more time off. For caregiving than there is for maternity leave. So there is a reality around the fear and the frailty. But again, this comes back to the sort of the limited self-expectations because once you raise people’s awareness to possibilities and you touched on, you know, the idea that another thing that’s sort of hitting my radar screen is you may have had a job where you were seen as successful either financially or status, social status, but how fulfilled do you really feel in the life you’ve led and money isn’t everything. So that’s the other opportunity here of helping people recalibrate of what would you most benefit from doing going forward. And again, some of the data points popping up about, you know, the demographics on entrepreneurs, again, dialing into all this life experience. You know, if we create more of an ecosystem around that, but all the time helping people take more responsibility towards their own well-being. And just sort of wrap up this a little bit here, Ellen Langer was the first female in the psychology department at Harvard. Her book last year, she did the counterclockwise experiment back in the 70s where they put a bunch of old guys in a resort for a week. And by the end of it, they’re all moving better, seeing better, hearing better. So a lot of it has to do with our environment and coddling people, that’s another issue. But her book two years ago, The Mindful Body, and essentially think your way to chronic health. So again, I think many of us are way more capable of doing better for ourselves than we initially believe. And that’s a another thing. I mean, I’ve had people say to me, Wow, I don’t feel I’m creaking so much as I was before. You know, I experienced the flourishing longevity perspective.

So what I think I heard you say is that when we get a big mass of us all being 75 years old, we got to start making jokes about all the 20 year olds, right? And writing cartoons about them and those kinds of things, reverse this whole thing. I’m just kidding. Just a joke.

Well, you say that, John, but remember, you know, the over the hill, the over the Hill cards, that was age 40. My daughter, when she turned 25 was lamenting being halfway to 50. I’m having as much fun talking to 20 year olds about what does living successfully to 120 look like for you. And they are really engaging because no one else has engaged them. And so beginning to just engage in that conversation. And I think, you know, I know you do a lot of work with MIT. So the Agnes suit, which is for a 20-year-old to feel like what it feels like for a 70-year old. And I heard one of your team on the call a couple of years ago say, well, where’s the reverse Agnes suit for a 70-year to feel a 20 year old? And to me, darling into that, I’ve used Paul McCartney as an example in the workshop since I created it. So he was singing about the theorem for LT. The sixties, will you still need me? Will you still feed me when I’m 64? I was initially referencing him when he turned 80, playing a four hour concert. But if you go and look on YouTube now, he is doing a world tour. And, oh my it’s, it’s incredible. So again, a lot of it’s down to mindset and you know, having this longer term view, once you start, you know looking beyond 65 plus plus plus. To being open to the possibility of 100, like that 65-year-old I referenced. Once you start have 40 years to play within your mind, it’s a whole different landscape.

Jonathan, you started to mention 20 year olds thinking about these concepts and maybe even taking their own flourishing longevity scorecard. But I’m thinking for the financial professional that delves into these meaningful conversations with their clients, is there an opportunity then to facilitate a multi-generational conversation amongst families? Parents can share their thoughts, ideas, concerns with the next generation or generations to really bring those discussions home. And I know that that’s something that financial professionals struggle with is how do I engage the next-generation in a meaningful way and get to know my client’s adult children?

Well, that’s a great question, Julie, because you’re absolutely right. And if you look at some of the key pain points within the industry at large, you’ve got the $84 trillion wealth transfer. I think it’s something like 70% of the assets leave after either the first spouse dies or both spouses die and the next generation take the funds away because there is no relationship. The wonderful thing with this longevity planning is I’ve worked with 93 year olds all the way down to 20 year olds. And so, again, with the training, helping advisors ease their way into this conversation because it is so impactful. And things are bubbling up out there where advisors with clients age 70, whose parents are still alive. So what are the blind spots when it comes to finance with unexpected costs? That no one’s taken into consideration. So you’re right with the multi-generational approach, and that’s what’s the neat thing with what we’re putting on the table with the flourishing longevity focus is that planning to live longer, better, start that in your 20s, and you’re gonna be better off than some of us trying to do it in our 60s, perhaps. Not that being in your 60s you can’t move the dial, but again, the real message here is A, this benefits. You know, all generations and be, you know for the advisor who’s embracing this especially in the face of AI and you know the change that that’s gonna bring the disruption that’s going to bring, you know, it’s a great place to be navigating into because there is such a need for it.

Well, Jonathan, thanks very much as always for your words of wisdom. And you may remember from the last time we visited together that Julie and I like to run our guests through the ringer of what we call a lightning round of questions. And if you recall, uh, we, with your permission, we’re going to fire away on some questions to help our audience learn a little bit about Jonathan Ainsley away from longevity planning about Jonathan as a person. So if you’re a game. Julie, I’ll start by beginning to reel off some questions at you, or will you go?

I wondered about this, so yeah, let’s just go for it.

That’s what happens when you’ve been here before. See, you know, more tricks. Well, Jonathan, what’s your favorite go-to karaoke song?

You will never get me doing karaoke. So the sound of how about the sound of silence?

We get that answer a lot. So there we go.

Yeah, let’s put this way. I’m closer to actually probably coming up with an answer to that these days. I think someone’s going to coax me into doing it. But yeah, let us just stick with the sound of silence.

Jonathan, what’s your favorite way to spend a Sunday morning?

Ah, well, you can tell from this accent, I live in Orlando. So quite invariably, it’s watching the English Premier League.

Ah, there you go.

What’s your favorite app on your phone?

Ooh, what’s my favorite app? I don’t know if I’ve got a favorite app. I mean, it’s, it’S funny. Just trying to keep up with them because something’s always pinging. So, um, again, let me, let me give you a mumble swerve on that because conversely, I’m not sure anything’s really standing out in terms of, yeah, let’s, let’s let’s just, yeah. That’s that’s still drinking from the fire hose.

If you had to tell someone what your super power is, what would it be?

Connecting dots to see the bigger picture

Oh, that’s excellent. I love that. Well, Jonathan, we can’t thank you enough for rejoining us here on the human centric investing podcast. And I said it before, and I’ll say it again, thank you for continuing to push the envelope of longevity and educating us and helping us think outside of the box and for our listeners who are interested in learning more about Jonathan’s important work, feel free to visit longevity planning dot me longevity planning.me. Thank you again, Jonathan for being here with us today.

Well, thank you to both of you. It’s really fun to be back.

Thanks for listening to the Hartford Bunds human-centric investing podcast. If you’d like to tune in for more episodes, don’t forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter or YouTube.

And if you’d like to be a guest and share your best ideas for transforming client relationships, email us at guestbooking at HartfordFunds.com. We’d love to hear from you.

Talk to you soon.

The views and opinions expressed herein are those of the guest who is not affiliated with Hartford Funds.