With over 25 years of radio experience, Steve Allen has programmed a variety of radio formats, with winning radio stations in Washington, DC, Boston, Detroit and Cincinnati, He has also held a number of corporate programming positions, and is now Programming Research Consultant for the Research Director, Inc.

Steve is a self-proclaimed 'data-geek' who is on the bleeding edge of the needs and challenges of programmers in today's radio/audio environment, and the best ways to crack the ratings code for measurement and performance.

In this episode, Steve shares some key points, including:

• While radio is still the number one audio reach medium, listening is down overall, especially among younger people. What’s radio’s next move?
• How the pandemic has impacted levels of radio listening.
• Why ratings should be taken with a grain of salt in PPM and Diary markets.
• What TLR is, and how it can impact perceived station impact and real revenues.
• Are Podcasting and Streaming growing threats to traditional radio, or valuable complements to the station brand?

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The good news is that radio still is the number one audio reach medium.

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Without question.

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The challenges right now and

people using radio is down, I

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mean up to 20% across the board.

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Fewer people listening to radio and

we don't know if we're coming back.

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Welcome to BRANDwidth On Demand,

your Guide to Rebooting Radio.

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I kinda looked for two things.

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How is Nielsen performing?

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How's the sample doing?

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'cause we always tell our clients,

you don't pay Nielsen for ratings.

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You pay them for sample

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VO: BRANDwidth on Demand.

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Rebooting radio with a different

take on all radio can be.

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Now your guides through the metamorphosis.

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David Martin and author of

the book BRANDwidth, media

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branding Coach Kipper McGee.

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Dave: This time around, our guest brings

a wealth of programming experience to us.

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He's programmed in Washington d C

Boston, Detroit, Cincinnati, and he's

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held corporate programming positions

for A M F M and Clear Channel.

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He's a self-described data geek and

understands the needs and challenges of

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programmers In today's radio environment,

he serves as programming research

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consultant for the research director Inc.

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BRANDwidth On Demand is

proud to welcome Steve Allen.

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Hey Steve.

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Kipper: Hey, welcome.

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Steve: Thanks for having me.

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It's really nice.

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I appreciate it.

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Kipper: So today we're talking ratings

and to really take things to their core.

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What do you see as the key performance

indicators, the KPIs that rating services

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like Nielsen or Eastland provide?

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And more importantly, what are the very

first things you look for when you're

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checking out the performance of a client

station or even their competition?

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Steve: Obviously ratings and ranking

and share and all that stuff is what

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everybody looks at, but we peek under

the hood and I kinda look for two things.

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How is Nielsen performing?

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How's the sample doing?

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'cause we always tell our clients,

you don't pay Nielsen for ratings.

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You pay them for sample.

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And if they are, supposed to give you

X number of meters or diaries, you

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wanna make sure you hit that mark.

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But even deeper than that, Nielsen does

a pretty good job on a six plus basis.

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But you really wanna look

at your target demos.

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So let's say you're targeting women

35, 44, and the index is, When

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waiting kicks in, that can really

have an effect on your numbers.

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And we see that happen all the time.

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Beyond that, and that's one of

the services we provide is the

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kind of like the ratings whisper.

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But then beyond that there's, there

are certain things we like to look at.

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How's your t s L compared

to the market, right?

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If you have a good healthy market, P

S L, are you getting your fair share?

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How are you doing on rotating people

through day parts and vertically and

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horizontally recycling them, getting those

occasions and how obviously the, obviously

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is how you're performing in your key

demographics and versus your competition.

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But yeah some things beyond just,

AQH, TSL and Cume, can tell you

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whether your station's doing well.

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And on top of that I like

to take a longer view.

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If you just look at one book, so many

things can happen in one book that you

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really can't base it on, on, on one book.

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You have to look at the longer trend.

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And keep in mind that our, our

mantra is there are four things that

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will affect your ratings, right?

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Something you've done.

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You change your music, change

your morning show whatever format,

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something your competitor has done.

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Same thing.

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Something big has happened

in the marketplace.

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Christmas music, the best example of that.

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Orel, we so all those factors play

in to see how well you are doing.

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And what do you look for

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Dave: overall, Steve, when you're sitting

down with a client station and taking

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a look at the the most recent full

quarter numbers what are you looking for

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when you're looking at those numbers?

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Steve: If we've been with them for a

while, we wanna see how the station's

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trending and what their goals are.

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What do they expect?

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Is this a station that it's

expected to, be a top five

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performer or is this a flaker?

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They're just trying to hurt somebody else.

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So it really depends on what the needs

are, and then we want to give them a

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reality check on what's really happening

over time with their numbers in Nielsen.

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Kipper: Steve, we're hearing lots about

the decrease in even demise of radio

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as a distribution platform or device.

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Which leads us to the question, what

trends are you seeing ratings wise in

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the consumption of audio and especially

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Steve: radio?

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There's good news and there's bad news.

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The good news is that radio

still is the number one audio

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reach medium without question.

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It gets everywhere.

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And while we are not at the

levels we were, let's say 20 years

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ago, it's still pretty robust.

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The challenges right now and the

pandemic certainly accelerated.

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This is home is down.

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People using radio is down,

up to 20% across the board.

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Fewer people listening to radio

and we don't know why, and we don't

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know if they're coming back now.

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Hybrid, right?

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People are not in their car

as much as they used to be.

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So if they're only working three days a

week versus five, that's potentially 40%

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of their weekday listening has gone away.

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There's certainly a demo problem.

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Radio is increasingly an older medium.

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Not unusual for markets to have

their median listening age, right

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around 50 people under the age of 35.

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Especially under the age of 24,

oftentimes don't even listen

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to all radio for an hour a day.

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So that radio does have a youth problem.

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And the third thing, and I think,

we're gonna talk about digital

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and stuff there's, there's a hefty

number, a percentage of the population

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depending on the market that does

not even have a radio in their house.

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And that sometimes could

be as high as 30, 35%.

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At the same time, smart speaker

penetration, as we know, has leveled off.

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Everybody bought one with the

pandemic and now they're like,

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eh, do I really need Alexa?

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But that's not even at 50%.

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So the thought that Alexa would

replace your in-home radio,

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it, there's some of that there.

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Maybe the real opportunity for

radio is the mobile apps, right?

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Because we know that basically

97% of people have a smartphone.

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So if you're trying to reach people beyond

your stick, that's a good way to do it.

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Kipper: One question that some of my

clients have been struggling with is the

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idea of total line reporting, especially

versus splitting off their streams

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for different commercials and whatnot.

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So first, tell us about total

line reporting and for stations

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that don't practice it.

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Might that be impacting

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Steve: their ratings?

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No, not yet.

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Nielsen the whole odd I, the idea

behind Nielsen one is to someday be

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the, the one ring to rule 'em all right?

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Where they, it's television, it's

digital, it's radio, it's everything.

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And they could just sit there

and go, boom, here's your number.

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They're not there yet.

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They were close with a system called

s, I think SDK years ago, where

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they were gonna encode every single.

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Audio player on the internet.

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But that fell through.

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We're not sure why.

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It's still the same thing we

dealt with for 20, 30, 40 years.

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It's recall, it's, I

listen from nine to five.

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No one listens from nine to five.

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People have to go to the bathroom.

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Know.

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So it's you didn't see the decline in

listening and time spent listening as

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much in diary markets as you have in P M.

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And PPM is reality.

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I'll say this, give Nielsen it to do, man.

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The meter works.

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It does a very accurate job, not

only of measuring what it hears,

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but if you extrapolate from that,

it shows your listener behavior.

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If you really dig into the numbers, you

can see, you get a better picture of

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how people actually use the service.

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And

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Dave: Steve, what's your counsel to

stations on streaming and podcasting?

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Steve: I, podcasting, eh, I think the

value for podcasting right now for

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radio from a ratings perspective is

if you've got a, a big personality

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and you can get somebody to listen

to their bits within, I think it's

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24 hours, you'll get credit for it.

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Otherwise it's a money play if

you can make money off of it.

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Streaming, I will be upfront saying

that as a company, and we are big

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believers in total line reporting.

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That said, it's a

business decision, right?

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'cause first off, if you're

gonna encode your stream, you

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gotta pay an extra fee of Neil.

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So there's a cost involved.

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Secondly, if you can monetize your

stream at a higher rate than what

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the stream numbers will help you.

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Then by all means, do that.

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And third, Nielsen does a awful

job and they've admitted it, of

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recording, streaming on earbuds, right?

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They have a headphone adjustment,

but there's no way they can

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accurately reflect that.

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We've looked at backend, server side

numbers from clients and the actual number

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of listeners compared to what Nielsen

registers, it's, the gap is humongous.

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That all said.

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That if you are total line reporting and

let's say you are, your station's getting

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a point, you're one of, eight stations

in the market with a 0.3 rating, right?

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And we all know that's rounding, right?

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That 0.3, somewhere between 0.250

and 0.349 that 0.3 may be a 0.340.

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And you get an extra 200

aqh from your stream.

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All of a sudden that 0.3 came becomes

a 0.4 and your sales manager realizes

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that their rating has gone up 33%.

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And in big markets, how

much is a point worth?

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It's millions of dollars.

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Okay,

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Kipper: so one question that some

of my stations have had trouble

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wrapping their head around at first

is the idea of total line reporting.

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So first of all, can you tell

us what is total line reporting?

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And then for stations that don't

practice it, what could be the impact?

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Their ratings?

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Steve: The start with p M is extremely

accurate in recording listening.

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They, and I shouldn't say listening what

it hears technically, it's what it hears.

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Very accurate of it.

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Very precise in exactly how long someone

is tuned into a particular product.

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Whereas diary is 100% recall and

we know from years of experience

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that, some people fill it out at the

end of the day, but probably more

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people out at the end of the week.

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It's Thursday through Wednesday.

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And so there.

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I just ask anybody listening, sit

down tonight and reconstruct your

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lunch menu for the last week.

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And see if you could actually remember

exactly what you ate every day.

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You probably can't.

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But you wrote, you would

remember what you like to eat.

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And I probably had a

ham sandwich on Tuesday.

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It's the same way with diary, right?

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It's like my favorite radio station is x.

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So I know I listen to them and I

get to the office at nine and I

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have them on at my desk until five.

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And I don't take into account the

fact that I had a bathroom break,

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three meetings and a phone call.

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So you know, it over inflates the

listening and also the difference

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between the two is that you underestimate

the number of stations you listen to.

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Because all the meter has to do is

pick up five minutes of non-continuous

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listening in a quarter hour to

give you credit for a station.

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So if you know you go into the

deli for lunch and they're playing

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another station that you never

listened to, but you're standing

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in line for 10 minutes, guess what?

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You're now in their queue.

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Oh yeah.

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The other thing is sample, right?

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P M is panel based, so it's

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or whatever your market size is.

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People every single day.

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Every week of the pa every day

of the 28 day survey for diary.

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It's an entirely new sample every week.

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And especially if you're in a continuous

diary measurement market and you're

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looking at three book average at 36

weeks, that's 36 different samples where,

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now there's a yin and the yang to that.

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The good news for the diary people is

that if they didn't find your people

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in week one, they might find them in.

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The problem with the P M

sample is households can be

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locked in for up to two years.

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And if all of a sudden and you

see this a lot like the Christian

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contemporary stations where they'll

get a couple of heavy households and

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all of a sudden they're a top five

station for a year, and then those two

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households leave and they drop to eight.

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And we see that with formats.

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Formats go hot and cold based on

a lot of times on panel because

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there's not enough of that particular

format's fan base in the sample.

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Yeah.

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Dave: Our guest is Steve Allen,

the Nielsen Audio Whisperer and

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Programming research consultant

for the Research Director, Inc.

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We've got links to the research director

and some info you may not have seen plus

246

Steve's blog and more just scroll down

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Kipper: And we'd appreciate it.

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If you do us a favor, just pass this

podcast along to other people in your

249

company or your circle of radio friends.

250

Our mission is to help you level up

your game by hearing from the top

251

media thought leaders like Steve.

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On air hosts, program directors,

and others that you usually only

253

see at a conference or convention.

254

Dave: Yeah, think of BRANDwidth On

Demand as your unconventional convention.

255

Episodes of about 15 minutes

at a time, on demand.

256

Coming up.

257

Steve shares some of the

best advice he's ever gotten.

258

Spot: Hi, this is Dave Tyler from

Musicmaster Scheduling, here with

259

another Musicmaster Raving fan.

260

Hi, I'm jeff McCarthy, Vice

President of Programming for Duke

261

Wright's Midwest Communications.

262

Why do we succeed?

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Using Musicmaster for over 30 years!

264

There now you know our secret.

265

Ready to become a Musicmaster raving fan?

266

Get in touch@musicmaster.com slash sales.

267

Kipper: Hey, there.

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Kipper here.

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If your station is so many others,

begging out for some sort of station

270

merchandise for sale or even to give

away, but the budget says Uhuh, your

271

solution could be just a click away.

272

Check out radio swag shop.

273

It's in the show notes or simply go

to radio swag shop.com/kipper, your

274

audience and your budget will thank you.

275

VO: Listen today, lead

tomorrow BRANDwidth on Demand.

276

Dave: We're with Steve Allen,

the go-to data guy for us.

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He's the programming research consultant

for the Research Director Inc.

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Hey, Steve, what's the best piece of

advice that you were given in your

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career so far, either in your PD days or

now, and then what one piece of advice

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would you give to someone in charge of

brand management or programming today?

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Steve: I can't think of a specific

moment where someone said, do this right.

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I can recall early in my career when

I got my first big break on the air,

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it was a W Light in Washington dc.

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I was a night guy and Bob Hughes

was the program director Bob Hughes.

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Just a brilliant programming mind.

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And Bob, I would come in early often

and Bob would stay late often, and

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we would just sit in his office.

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I'm just some schmuck kid, that's

just started, doing full-time there.

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And we would play the what if game.

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What if, whether it was music scheduling

or promotions or songs or whatever, most

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of it didn't get done but his willingness

to sit there and banter back and forth

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with me and just, actually care what I

thought and entertain the ideas really

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opened up a lot of doors for me mentally.

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And I think I tried to carry that through.

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My programming career, and even now

it's let's talk about what we could do.

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And so that was the most valuable

thing that I can remember early on

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that really influenced what I did

as far as the advice I would give.

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Now, if you're managing talent, which

brand managers are, and operations

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director, you're managing talent, you

really have to manage to those people.

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They're a different breed.

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And they, they you could joke that

it's like herding cats, but they're

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all individuals and you want that.

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You wanna enhance that individuality

and you want to, you wanna

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really manage to your people.

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There is no such thing as one size

fits all in creative management.

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Some of your people need to be

coddled, some need to be cajoled,

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some to be challenged, some need

to be the left alone, right?

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I think as a manager, it's

your job to figure out what.

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Buttons to push or not to push

on your people, put them in

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the best position to succeed.

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Dave: Great advice.

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Our thanks to Steve Allen, links to his

website, some great articles and more

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all in our regular show notes email.

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We send it out before every

episode and you can easily get it.

315

Just scroll down on your

phone for a free subscription.

316

Kipper: We'd like to thank

our exec producer Cindy Huber

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for putting this together.

318

Also, associate producer

Hannah B for booking.

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And coming up next...

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Holland: News will be

the Savior of News Talk.

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I'm Holland Cooke and in the next

BRANDwidth On Demand, we all know it.

322

Political talk changes.

323

No mind.

324

You already know today what they're

gonna say 'cause they said it yesterday.

325

But the news is changing from moment to

moment and I will tell you three ways

326

to make your newscast instantly better.

327

Dave: That's a wrap Kipper.

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One of the secrets of

success is endurance.

329

We'll talk about it in one minute.

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Martinizing.

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Find it in show notes at

BRANDwidth On Demand.com.

332

I'm Dave Martin.

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Kipper: And I'm Kipper McGee.

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May all your BRANDwidth be WIDE!.