Online business coaching has gotten chaotic in a very specific way. Too many people are selling support they are not qualified to give, recycling the same scripts, leaning on borrowed credibility, and creating this MLM adjacent loop where coaches hire other coaches just to stay afloat. Meanwhile buyers are left confused, pressured, or wondering why something felt off.

In this episode I'm joined by my business bestie Stacy Braga and we talk about why the coaching space feels out of control, how shame gets used to pressure people into programs, how “mindset” gets used to deflect real problems, why so many strategies have not evolved with buyers, and what actually helps you make better decisions before investing in anyone.

Inside the episode we cover:

• How shame gets used as a pressure tactic

• How “mindset” gets positioned as the reason something didn’t work

• Why fake urgency still hooks people who know better

• The inbreeding effect of coaches coaching coaches

• How borrowed credibility shows up in marketing

• Parasocial friendship pressure and why it feels manipulative

• What ethical support actually looks like

• What to ask before you invest so you can protect yourself

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

Connect with Stacy online: www.stacybragacopy.com

Listen to Stacy's podcast: CozyPreneur Podcast

Connect with Sydney on Instagram: @sydneyobrien.co

Grab the Buyer Journey Content Map

the tactic that I see all the time is to, like,

Well, you know, in six months from now, are you going to be mad at yourself for doing nothing today?

That one, I hate that one. Yes. There's so many like icky specific like sales calls tactics just like that too. That I've fallen victim to and have been told to do on sales calls and I'm like no.

I also love that we're both like ready to be cozy with our mugs and...

I specifically put my cat sweater on for this.

I love them.

That's perfect.

I thought so. It's been my podcast guest podcast sweater.

I love that. So today I am here with Stacey and we are going to chat about ⁓

business coaching and if it's an MLM and all the shady tactics that are involved there. I've worked with Stacey. She's like an amazing copywriter for gosh, I don't even know a year and a half, two years, something like that now. I feel like it's been a minute. Yeah. She's also one of the few people I've actually met in real life from like the online business world. So that's cool.

them like that. Yeah, it's been a minute. It's been around a while.

But yeah, do you wanna tell us a little bit about your work more before we get started?

Sure, so yeah, like you said, I'm a copywriter and I focus a lot on helping businesses create their brand messaging, so thinking about what are they actually saying and how they communicate it and how to do that in a way that feels ethical and good and not schemey and shady.

Yeah, that's very much needed. I feel like so much of the online space is very schemey and shady, especially the marketing for it.

It's interesting too, because it's like, I feel like I've had to unlearn a lot of things that I learned. And then it was like, as I moved through time and was like doing different strategies that other people were like, do this, do this. I was like, this doesn't feel good. And I've had to like shift the way that I'm showing up in my business and like what I recommend for my clients, because it's like this whole process of like, I feel like I'm unlearning like bad habits.

Yeah, same. when did you start your business?

Right at the beginning of 2023.

Okay, yeah, so, and I feel like around that time, there were like a few big names when it came to like online marketing and like online business things that were really well known and yeah, they were probably not sharing the best tactics and strategies.

And it's interesting too, right? Cause like some of those people are still around and they're like really out of touch now. ⁓ And it's like interesting to watch because it's like you're, it's, it's interesting to watch people not evolve with the times and be like, Hey, you can just like create a course and do all of these things and make all of this money. And it's like, no, that doesn't really work anymore because the market is like, there's way more self-employed people in the online space.

my gosh, yeah.

today than there was five years ago. And so you can't just like put mediocre stuff out there. You actually have to like figure out why you and like what makes you special and do a good job in order to succeed in business.

Yeah, it's such a huge red flag when people are trying to sell any kind of like coarser marketing thing or like business strategy that doesn't acknowledge the changes that have happened in the last couple years, even like the last year. But yeah, those big name people are still writing the same strategies as before and pretending it's fine and it still works and it's kind of crazy. And I feel bad for the people that like spend so much money on those courses, like hoping to get those same results.

because the people selling them have been around for a while and have this huge audience already ready to buy that newer businesses don't have.

And I think the thing too that they don't talk about is like, they have teams. They have like, I know they have a copywriter on that team that is going to their webinars and then writing all the emails afterwards. And now with AI, like they're pushing out even more stuff. And so it's like, they're telling you that this is the strategy that you need, you know, all of these, like you need to be posting on social media every day. You need all of these email sequences. You need ads, you need, right? And those are like,

Hence.

When I work with bigger brands,

Sometimes we have like five or six people working on a project. Like it's not like just me doing all of the work. Like it's a team effort. And so like to tell like a solo business owner that you have to be doing all of these things, like it's just like a recipe for burnout. It's so unrealistic.

Mm-hmm. And my favorite thing is when they say that their way is the only way to get whatever end goal it is that they're selling. There's not a million different things you could do to get there. But no, it has to be their way, and you have to spend however much money, like several thousand dollars to get it. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen for you.

And if it's not happening for you, it's your fault. You're doing something wrong.

Yes, of course. It's all you. You're doing wrong. the shame based marketing drives me insane.

I definitely, you know, if we're gonna share stories, I've had some weird ones. I've worked with quite a few different coaches in my time. I definitely have moments where I'm like, damn, if I had spent that money on something else, it would have been like so much better spent. But it also, I don't wanna be like, it was a complete waste of money. Like I do think I got a lot of value from coaching. Like I didn't know anything about business when I started and like there is a lot to learn.

I do think like at a certain point, there's not that much more to learn. Like you just kind of have to figure it out and do your own thing. And, you know, now I lean into like my colleagues, right? Like I lean into like people like you where I'm like, Hey, I have a question or like, I hire a consultant and I'm like, Hey, can we talk through this for an hour? so my support looks different now, but I think that at the beginning, like the handholding was like really nice for me because I.

needed that support and I was going through it emotionally too. Like I had just quit teaching. Like I had, I was doing this whole big life change and I'm, you know, it's really hard. So I don't want to like totally shit on business coaches, but I have had some weird experiences. Like I signed up for like a one year program one time and like halfway through our like weekly calls started becoming like basically like church sessions. Like she would just like preach the whole time and like,

I just started feeling really uncomfortable. That's not why I signed up for the program. So I ended up just quietly backing away, but I was like, damn, that was money poorly spent on my part.

Yeah, that's unfortunate. I feel like the same way, like I've also invested in several coaches and programs and things. And there was a lot of really helpful stuff in there, but like you were saying earlier, there are definitely some tactics that I had to unlearn being like, hmm, this probably, this isn't the best way. This doesn't make me feel good. It doesn't make like leads feel good. I'm not doing it.

What are some of the like icky tactics that you see that feel gross to you?

Yeah, kind of like the more, I guess, like pain point marketing, but without like the validation aspect. And also like fake urgency just annoys me.

where you give an example if people don't know.

yeah, so fake urgency, like if you're selling something and you have like some kind of random deadline with no reason for it. Yeah, why? I don't get it.

Because somebody told you to do that.

Someone told me,

I felt like I had to every time. And I don't know, I feel like it can be done right, but when it's like...

I hate it when it's so like hyped up like, oh my gosh, this deadline is happening. You have to do it now. You have to buy. Like that bothers me. But you can be like, you know, the sale ends because that's when it does. That's fine. But like when you go to the extreme of it, it's like stressful, I feel.

Right.

I know, and it's like, I think what people don't understand too, like using those tactics is like pressuring people into the sale ends up with a worse customer experience because they're not like fully bought in. And so like, yes, you got your money, but like you might've just lost like a recurring client that would have stayed with you for a long time.

and like referrals too.

Yeah, and it's so funny because I have somebody who emailed me actually this morning and we've been talking, it's November, we've been talking since the summer about her wanting to join my offer and every time we talk I'm like, whenever you're ready, it's fine, we'll be here, it's up to you. ⁓ And I think that has built more trust than being like, the tactic that I see all the time is to, like,

Right.

Well, you know, in six months from now, are you going to be mad at yourself for doing nothing today?

That one, I hate that one. Yes. There's so many like icky specific like sales calls tactics just like that too. That I've fallen victim to and have been told to do on sales calls and I'm like no.

Yeah,

like asking for credit card numbers on sales calls. Like I got trapped into that because I was like, I'm like, I got stuck. I was like,

Yeah,

it's like so pressure filled and they sometimes some people I don't want to say like all business coaches are evil or anything, but there are some where it's it's like so much pressure and they don't give you an opportunity to say no. It's like I hate it. I hate it so much. Or one person was like asking about the investment because that was my hang up. I was like, this is a lot of money. Like this is new for me. I've got like three kids. This is a lot of money for me to spend.

And they were like, well, one time, you I had to sell some furniture in my house to be able to make an investment. And we're like asking like what we could do, what I could do to come up with the money to be able to afford it. Not like your tactic of, well, I'm here, whatever. And then pointing out like, well, if you don't do anything now, your business is gonna stay the same. It's not gonna grow. Like it was, it felt really awful.

Yep, I've had that happen to me too where like I remember I was like trying to cut costs and like trying to save money and the feedback I got was like, hey, why don't you just stop trying to cut costs and just sell more? it really led into like, it was like the 2X of the pricing for the next year. And I was like, hey, I can't do this. And it was like, well, why not? It's because you're not selling enough. And it's like, it's not my responsibility to pay you.

Right.

Yeah, that's insane. That was like a big thing I saw. Were you, I know you don't spend much time on social media anymore, but were you on threads after like ConvertKit or Kit, guess, raised their prices and people were offering like Flowdesk as an alternative?

Not really.

Okay, so

it was insane. People were like, well, if you can't afford it, probably shouldn't be in business. You should probably be making more sales. And I was like, what a weird take to have. It was wild. It's so bad. God forbid we want to save some money.

That's so awful.

Yeah, and it's like, just like so out of touch, because it's like, things are really expensive right now. Like, it makes sense that you're cutting costs. I'm like, budgets are tight, people are making less. Like, it's really, I don't know, I would never tell one of my, like if one of my clients came to me and like, I can't work with you, I would never be like, this is your fault.

Yeah.

Yeah, no one wants to hear that. That would, that's like a surefire way to make sure they don't come back when like things are better for them.

I know. And like you said, like the referrals piece, right? Like I've had people, I had a retainer client that ended up getting laid off from their full-time job. So they couldn't, they were like, all right, we're going all in on business now. But it was like, okay, now I don't have this extra money to like invest. And I was like, hey, I get it. Like it's totally fine. But they're like also a great referral source. And we just like maintain that relationship. And it's not like.

I don't know, it's not like I have to be dramatic about it and like, petty about it and go complain about it on social media.

Right, yeah. I feel like some of my, like, highest ticket, like, recurring, like, retainer kind of clients are all from referrals. like, I would never do anything to mess that up.

Well, and I think that it's really an underrated strategy. Like, doing a good job is like such a good foundation for your success. And like having good relationships with your clients, like that's great marketing. People don't talk about it, but it is great marketing.

Yeah, super underrated. Then you already have like so much trust with that like potential client that you don't have to like build from scratch with random social media posts and email funnels and all the things.

And that's where like, it's nice that you have your website, it's nice that you have your social media, because they will go and check and be like, hey, does this person actually know what they're talking about? But yeah, it's hard to like, it's hard to build that trust online now because of all of the icky things that have been going on.

Yeah, absolutely. When we were first talking about doing this episode and we sent out the emails and I posted on threads asking for experiences, quite a few people told me they have just left social media because of those icky tactics and they got tired of seeing them.

Yeah, I think one of the ones that really bothers me is like using personal trauma to sell your offer. Like they'll be like, here's this like horrible thing that happened in my life. And that's why I'm a great like coach and this is why you should buy my offer. And it's like, it just like feels so gross to me. Like I, I don't know. I am definitely like a proponent of like, you don't have to share your whole self to have a business. Like you can

strategically share your brand, but something about it just like feels like the crying on Instagram, like it just feels so perceived fake.

Yeah, it feels like emotional manipulation.

That's true. It's like when you watch like the cult videos of like the MLM speakers and they cry at the same exact like minute mark at every single presentation that they do.

Like.

Yeah.

I've never cried on Instagram. Of all the like, not great things I've done in marketing, I can at least say I've never done that for a sale.

What other bad advice have you heard up there?

man, I don't know. I feel like there's so many.

an interesting thing. This is an advice, but like, how do you feel about the kind of like inbreeding, like, Ouroboros effect of money spent online and online businesses?

This is interesting because actually when you posted that thread about, we're thinking about doing this episode, like comment on it, somebody that I know commented on it and was like, this is what happened. And I actually reached out to her because I was like, this seems really similar to like my experience and what I saw. And I'm wondering if it's the same person. And it was not the same person, but it was like the person who...

It was like the business coach above them in the pyramid scheme. And so they were using not the actual pyramid scheme, but like they were hiring from them. And so it was like the same like incestual group using the same strategies. And I was like, this is so interesting.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, weird. Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people who just like hire each other and that's like how they make their money. And it's just going back and forth.

Yeah.

It's interesting too, like I think there's like this misconception, right? And I'll say like, of all of my clients in the past three years.

Business coaches have been the ones to not pay me the most.

interesting.

And I think that there's this divide between how much money they say they have and all of this and actually being able to pay you. And so I think there's this misconception too in the online space, especially when people are starting out that they wanna be working with business coaches, which is fine. There's some really amazing ones out there. But where I make my money is like...

actual businesses that provide actual services for people, like not people who are just in the online space, like they're people who are like in real life, like doing real life things. And those people always pay me.

Yeah, I

actually doubt that you mentioned that same. I have like my membership and services for online business owners and then I have my full on management for law firms, medical offices, and I've never had any issues there. And it's like, yeah, agreed.

Exactly, because it's like they have actual money because they're real businesses doing real things.

Right. Yeah. And I don't know, that's not to say like all like online businesses are bad, but definitely, you know, think about branching out.

Well, and it's like, you know, I actually was like worried when I sent the email out. So was like, I feel like there's a lot of business coaches on here. And I actually had a few business coaches reply and were like, thank you so much for sending this email. Like, I'm so glad you're saying these things out loud. Like, you there's like a few people that are like dirtying the name for the whole industry. And it's like really true because it's like, if you're just like a business coach working with business coaches, that feels really MLME because you're just perpetuating the same things.

But if you're like a business coach consultant working with the beauty industry, working with creatives, working with, you know, people, know somebody who does helping businesses who are ready to sell their business and they do like the end of the spectrum. And so I think like when you're niched down like that, there's a lot of value you can provide, but I think like general, like business coaching that is really just how to use social media, like

Yeah.

Is it really going to be super effective in the future? Especially with AI now. You can just AI that. You can AI your business coach.

Yeah.

it's not

real person.

Thank you for pointing that out. Yes, very, very important to keep in mind. But yeah, that's super true. And it kind of goes back to those icky tactics that like those main big people, they're just spreading and then to like the people that hire them, then the people that hire them. And that's why we see like so much of it.

You

It's kind of like, remember like the faceless digital marketing courses. It's kind of like that. It's like, how do you really stand out when you're doing the same things? And maybe like too, like I think another thing is like really, if you're thinking about investing in a business coach, asking the questions, like what experience do they have? What kinds of businesses have they worked with?

Yeah.

What are they promising, right? Because if you're promising tons of money, is that actually realistic? Are your clients actually getting that?

Yeah, that's super, super valid. I did work with a coach like that who did promise like their guarantee was like a certain amount of money. And while they had, I assume some clients because I saw like good testimonials on their website and stuff who were like actual real people. A lot of the people in like the cohort I was in for the course or like group coaching thing.

got nowhere near that amount. So yes, definitely something to be wary of. And on that note, I also saw a course that I was interested in investing in and went to check out the testimonials. They were fake.

No, that's illegal.

Yeah, like I looked up the names of the people and they just like didn't exist.

That's wild.

It was insane.

That is, that can get you a hefty fine from the FTC. Not that the FTC is probably doing anything right now, but in the future. Well, and if you think about it, right, like, you know, some of the bigger businesses, they can pay that fine. But like, if you're slapped with like a 10K fine, like that would really hurt me.

Right. At some point.

Yep, yeah that's quite a bit.

⁓ So other than checking on testimonials, what do you think are other ways people could make sure they're hiring the right person?

That's a good question. I think probably the first step is really thinking about what do you actually need help with and pausing and kind of seeing where are areas you need the most support because it might not make sense to hire somebody who's a general coach. It might make more sense to hire somebody very specific. That might be a better use of your time and money.

but then also just like looking at like their messaging and how they talk about their offers, like, is it?

Does it feel like relevant? Does it feel like... I don't know, for me it's like the out of touchness. Like if it feels like you don't really get it or you're like...

If it feels like you don't really get it, like you're losing me because I want somebody who understands that like, yes, I'm running a business, but like my business fits into the rest of my life.

Yeah, that's super true. I don't think I would ever hire someone who wasn't able to acknowledge that like, this is like a, honestly for me, it's like a part-time thing because you have three kids who take up a lot of your time and energy. If they were all like, well, just get up before your kids get up and get work done, I would be an immediate no for me. Like, no.

No, no, you don't want to join the 5am club,

I actually was talking about this with my husband today. It's insane that I, an extreme like not morning person, is expected to get small children up and ready in the morning. It never goes well. I'm certainly not waking up earlier than I need to to get anything done.

That's so funny. I used to teach and that's like the best part about having my business is like I don't have to wake up at the crack ass of dawn to get to school on time and then deal with lots of children. If I could start at like 10 a.m., I feel like I could have still done it.

I had an office job where everyone just knew I wasn't a morning person and the rule was no one would talk to me before 10 a.m. and it was glorious. That was like, I didn't like the job but I liked that part of it.

That's the dream. All of my calls now are between like 10 and 2 p.m. because I'm like, maybe a nine, maybe. But like, and then it's like after 2 p.m. I'm like, I'm done, I don't want to talk to people anymore. Like, I just want to like focus on writing and like doing things that don't involve people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, valid. Or like, I will only do like one call a day. If I do more than that, I'm done. It's too people-y for me. I'm not interested.

That's too people-y.

Yeah.

don't know, what do you think is like, like I know people talk about like regulating, like the business coaching industry, like what do you think would make it better?

It's such a good question and I have no idea. I know that was a comment on the thread I posted. Someone was like, well, just like in any other industry, there's bad apples everywhere. But it seems like in business, because it's not regulated, there are way more bad apples than not. Because she compared it to electricians or plumbers and stuff. But even then, they have to get licenses to work. They have to have some kind of training. Anyone can call themself a coach.

What's interesting as you say this is I'm thinking about like certifications because I know a lot of people have like the life coach certification, but I also know that that's a certification you can get in like 10 hours over a weekend. there's not continuing education that you need to get, which as a former teacher drives me crazy because I had to do so much education to be a teacher. ⁓

Great.

So even like certification programs, you can just make up a certification program. And so how do even tell that a certification is legit and recognized by different authorities?

Yeah, that's super valid, I use ThriveCart and I can host a course in there and I could make up a random certification for anyone that takes my course. I'm not any kind of accredited school or university or anything. I'm just a random person. It's kind of crazy.

I know. so it's honestly, if you're trying to hire somebody, especially like one of the bigger names, like do a Google search on their name, Reddit, and see what comes up because you will find the tea. If they're big enough, you'll find the tea.

Yeah, that was something someone said to me. They didn't even want to put it in a comment, but they DMed me about someone I was following that was kind of doing those icky marketing tactics and spreading misinformation in their course. And was like, are you sure you want to be following them if you're talking about this on threads? I like, I don't. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I was not familiar with this person's work.

I actually went through and unfollowed a bunch of icky coaches on my Instagram and now the space feels a lot better. But it's crazy and it's crazy too like how many like MAGA coaches came out like in the past year where I was like, whoa, did not realize I was following you, unfollow.

Yeah. I can imagine it.

Yeah, that was an easy way to free up my feed.

Just sort some of it out.

Yeah, I think overall just like use discretion, do some research, you know, really see like what is their experience.

and maybe don't jump into like a 12 month program, maybe test the waters. But I think something else that's hard is like, I think that it's a little bit love bomb-y sometimes where it's like at first you get like all of the attention. And I've heard this from a lot of people, right? Where like at the beginning of the program, you're getting like the coach, they're available. And then it's like, as time goes on, you're getting less and less of them. That's something that I've experienced too.

That just sucks. That sucks because you're signing a contract and you're like, okay, now I still have to pay you, but you're not actually fulfilling the terms of the contract.

Yeah, that was something I saw in the comments and replies I was getting as well. People were saying that.

⁓ I think another way, I know you mentioned kind of figuring out what you need help with before you hire someone. I feel like that is definitely something we need to do because a lot of the times the marketing tactics that are being taught are like show them why this one thing is the solution to their problem. But if you're aware of what you need to begin with, whether it's like...

not necessarily like this one specific funnel that someone is selling, but having like a more of an idea of where you need help, it's easier to figure out who you should hire, if that makes sense.

Yeah, and I think it's hard at the beginning because you don't know what works and you don't know what to prioritize. And so like when people are making promises like, like scale to like 5, 10, 20K, you're like, well, I want that money. I want to do all of the things. And then, yeah, I've been in multiple programs where I did not reach like the income promised.

Yeah.

Right.

I know, I would love to see how often that actually happens.

It's so interesting because there has to be like at least one or two people that are making it but then I also wonder like were they how much money were they making when they came into the program? Right and like what do they already have?

If they have teams, like

how big their audience was to begin with, like are they running ads, like so much stuff.

I did have one situation where I signed on with a coach and I was in the sales process with somebody and I think it was the next day I ended up closing the sale and made, it was like I sold a sales page for $2,000. This was right at the beginning. And the next day her marketing was like, I helped my client make a $2,000 sale. And I'm like, you did not do anything in that sale. It just coincidentally happened that I signed the contract and then.

she made that sale within the time frame, but it's like she didn't help me navigate that sale.

That's crazy.

but using it in her marketing and it's like, what?

Right, the audacity.

Yeah, I guess that's another thing, like as someone who does marketing, if you are doing your own marketing, ask permission before you share stories, please.

like, actually make sure that you have something to do with it. ⁓

Yeah,

I would- that's kind of crazy. I would assume that would like go without saying, but you would think.

You would think.

But I think too, like somebody who's like more professional, like they're gonna have case studies, they're gonna be able to talk about like why they do things in the way that they do. They're gonna be able to give you examples of like other clients that they've done like similar work with. And so just like asking those questions, like, hey, like you can ask like how many people actually meet this promise? How many people in the past year have actually...

Hmm.

like done what this program says it's gonna do.

Yeah, that's a good question to ask and I wish I had thought of that several years ago.

I kind say it's always 2020, right? ⁓

Yeah,

very true.

I know, I'm like, man, I should have just like invested all of that money. You know, it's helping me now not paying a business coach thousands of dollars every month.

I

Yep.

It's a world of difference.

Yeah,

I think one marketing tactic that I see is really leading into this like fake friendship thing. And I think it goes hand in hand with what I was saying before with like the trauma, right? And so you're basically divulging all of your inner secrets into your audience to make them feel like.

you're their friend, but you're not actually their friend, and then manipulating that to make sales.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's like a thing not even with online business coaches, but like big celebrity people do that online too, or like big influencers, and it always weirds me out.

It weirds me out too, like, you know, you see it with like T Swift, you see it with like Beyonce and like all of these like, I'm like, they are just people guys and they don't know you. Like they are using you for your money. So it's really, I think just like being cognizant of that, like if you are feeling like an emotional connection to somebody and you want to work with them because of that, just remembering that

It's a business transaction and these are not actually your friends. And I'm not saying you cannot have relationships with the people that you work with. But just being cognizant of that, I don't know.

Yeah, there's a line there that gets blurred, especially in the online space. I work with you and I would say we're friends, but I don't work with you because we're friends. Like we kind of formed that after we started working together. It's not because you cried on Instagram and I felt connected to you because of that.

Right. Exactly. Like, yeah.

you

And I think that it's like, connect too over like, you know, we have a lot of similar values. We approach the work in a lot of the same ways. And we've learned that over time, like through working together, like you've been my client, I've been your client. Not to say we're being incestual business coaches here. But there's a mutual respect, I think versus

some of these bigger coaches are selling you this friendship but then they're not actually interacting with you when you buy their thing. They're keeping you like at a distance. They're not actually like in the room with you even though they're selling like be in the room with you. That's another thing we didn't talk about is like the selling like the energy behind

Yeah.

success and like selling mindset behind success like I'm sorry you cannot mindset your way out of poverty.

If only.

If only everybody would be rich.

dream. Yeah, like what a crazy thing to say and to like promise people. Like I don't understand that at all. I get like, I get having like a positive attitude can help you to work harder or to reach your goals, but it doesn't stop there. That's not the whole strategy.

The dream!

and of course there's like a lot of social skills that you need to be good at business. Like you need to have some resilience. You need to be okay with people saying no to you over and over and over again. Like there are skills that you need to be successful in business, but it's really not like sit down and journal and write down the five things that you want to do and that's going to make you rich. And that's, that goes back to the out of touchness because I, how many

Yeah.

How many business coaches are writing books about like, just manifest your destiny. And like, all I did was meditate and journal. And I'm like, you are a very privileged person and that's why you were able to meditate and journal your way to success. But I also see some of those people like struggling now because they're not able to adapt and they're not able to see like what's actually going on because they're so out of touch.

Yeah, yeah. Anyone, like I said earlier, anyone who hasn't made some kind of shift in their business is like a huge red flag. It's so different now. Like, pretending the same things work is just insane.

And it's like, in some ways, it is the same things that work, right? You need like a good message, you need good copy, you need to get in front of new people, you need to build those relationships, but it's like, it's the tactics, right, that are not working.

Right.

Yeah. The tactics, not like the base strategy.

right. It's interesting now because now you're getting like the AI experts and you have people building like AI agencies and I'll be interested to see like how all of this plays out.

have so many thoughts on AI.

could be a whole nother crossover episode.

It really should be.

I was like, do I talk about AI? And I'm like, no, we have like other lives to lead. I cannot take this entire day just like yapping and whining about things.

Hahaha

I think being in marketing has made me a little bit cynical. But one thing that has been really bothering me is the people who write books and then have like, number one bestseller and it's like on what list? Which list are you a number one bestseller? Please tell me what list.

Yes.

Yeah. I want to

know. I want to see like the sticker that comes on the book when you get it, like the little gold thing. Yeah, I need it to be legit.

Right, like if you are like number one on like a super niched Amazon list or like, I don't think that counts.

Yeah, with like, where

it's a category nested under like 10 different categories above it. There's like two other books on the list total, because that's all that fits in that category.

Literally.

But you

have such a big audience that all bought your books, so it's of course number one, That drives me crazy.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah. So I think, I think even like asking the question of like, who did you learn from is kind of interesting because then you can kind of see, because it's hard in marketing because I feel like anybody can kind of jump into marketing and like what really gets you clients is like one referrals and then two, like being able to show your portfolio, being able to showcase studies and like, Hey, I have experience. know what I'm doing.

Hmm.

And so that's like the barrier to entry is low, but it takes a while to be able to like succeed, right? Like you have to build the receipts. And it's the same with coaching, but if you have no experience, then it's going to be really hard to build those receipts because you're starting from nowhere.

Right. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I also think a thing with online coaching to like get those receipts, a lot of people are like kind of told to work for free and then they just do it with each other kind of to if you're in the same coaching group they'll kind of trade services in exchange for reviews which I don't know.

how I feel about that.

That's tricky.

because I do understand you have to start somewhere, but I feel like there's a lot of, I don't know, it's a little misleading,

Yeah, and I'm like a big collaborator, right? Like I love working with other people. And I really do think like a lot of my success has come from being able to work with other people. And I think like, especially like at the beginning, you probably have no confidence. So like, feels really safe to like ask people that.

Mm.

are also in the same spot as you. When I first started, I was scared of working with real corporate businesses because I was like, I don't know if I know what I'm doing. And so it takes time. But I think as long as you're honest about what you can actually do and the results that you can promise, then I think it's okay.

Right.

Yeah.

but think it's not okay if the reviews are not realistic or reflective of your work.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

I always worry that it's just like people hyping each other up just because they know each other.

And I think there's a lot of that that happens.

Yeah.

And you start to see too, like as you get like, you you and I have been in the space for a while. So like, can go to a sales page and I'm like, I know these people are friends. I know these people are friends. Like, ⁓ and you kind of see. So it's interesting. That's like another thing with the, ⁓

of one.

What's the word? Discretion. Not discretion. Yeah, discretion.

And that's like a hard thing to notice if you're not you haven't been around for a while or if you're not like in the online space a lot To be able to look and see I know these people are friends So this might not be the most accurate review

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. That's like why these strategies work for people. Like it's hard to tell like whether or not they work.

I would say stay away from any sort of money promises. ⁓

See ya.

you

I think money promises are really hard to actually...

There's so much that goes into making money and making sales that there's no way that like one outside person is gonna be able to solve all of those for you. Like there's a lot of different moving pieces.

⁓ It does seem like obviously who wouldn't want those like 10, 20k months they're promising but it's just so unrealistic especially now with like people buying differently everything being so expensive like

I know. It's... yeah, it's interesting. I think like for me too, I'm like... I think one of the things that has happened for me is like I take way longer to buy. Like I joined a Slack community and I met with the person. I followed her on social media for like months and months and months and I was like, this is... I listen to their podcast every week. ⁓

There was a lot that went into it before, and it wasn't a huge investment, but it was like, I needed to know that this person was reflective of my values. I needed to feel confident that they actually know what they're talking about. And I think that's what you need. And it kind of sucks from the business owner perspective, because you're like, well, you just have to spend more time nurturing your people. And it's like, yeah, that's what you have to do. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah, that's kind of a thing for sure. I think, I think, I know, like we also see kind of trends in like what people offer in the online business world. Do you remember when like funnels were like the thing? ⁓ and like templates for them and stuff. So like those don't really work anymore because that was very much a trend. I mean, they can, but.

but I don't know. Yeah, good.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

people are just taking longer to buy, so it's not gonna be the same.

right, you're not gonna have like your perfect eight emails that are gonna bring you, you know, $20,000. And I think that's like the other thing too, with all of these marketing tactics is like, it doesn't happen in a bubble, right? Like you can have the perfect funnel, you're still gonna have to have conversations with people, you're still gonna have to show up places, like it's not just like put your marketing out there and then disappear, which is like what I feel like the.

marketing tells you that it is, it's like, hey, you just need a good website. Even with a great website, you're still gonna either have to have a sales call or a sales conversation with people. And that's a good thing. It's not bad. It's a good thing that you're checking in with your clients and making sure this is a good fit, this is working really well. And I know it sucks, but we don't like to talk to people, but that's a really important step.

Yeah, yeah, I hate it. I hate it so much. But it just has to happen.

Yeah, and it gets easier, Especially if you're not putting so much pressure on it. You have to remove yourself from the, it's about making money and really thinking about, is this a good fit for the person that's in front of me? And can I actually serve them well?

Yeah, and not even if it's like a good fit for them, but if it's a good fit for you too. Like I don't want to work with people who don't understand like the way I work. Because then it's just not gonna be good for either of us. like, but like I've also been around where like I know other people and if like if it's not a good fit with me like this person might be better for you.

yes.

and think that honesty goes like a really long way.

Yeah, for sure. I have people that I worked with in like completely different industries. Like I worked with like ⁓ someone who made toys and it ended up like a referral for like an editor. Yeah, it was really interesting. knowing that honesty and like the client experience is a big part of it is like so underrated.

much more important than those eight perfect emails that'll get you 20k or whatever.

Right, I know.

I did have to break up with a client this summer and that was a little bit rough, but not a business coach.

Yeah. Those are always like the hardest. I've only had to do it once, but it was like a really tough conversation.

Yeah, had to, that was like a time where I had to lean into my support network because I was like, I don't know how to handle this situation, but I know I need to leave the situation. And so that's where I kind of went to other people that I know have gone through the same thing. And I asked them like, hey, how did you approach this? Like, do you have any advice for me? And so I think like, if you are struggling with something, like don't feel like you have to invest right away, like see who's in your community.

Great.

Like, I'm always willing to answer questions. Like, I know you're willing to answer questions. Like, there are people around who are willing to help. Like, I'm not gonna, like, write your copy for you or give you your messaging, but like, I will help you, like, work through something.

Right, yeah, for sure. I love answering questions. ⁓ I'm not gonna make a month of content for you, but if you have a quick question, I'm happy to chat.

Ha!

Exactly. so I think like just tapping into your network to there are people around who are willing to help. you know, I had somebody when I first started, who was just like, so awesome with me and was very much like, Hey, if you, know it's really hard at the beginning, if you need help, like reach out and they are one of my biggest referrals. because I've just been like responsive and work hard for them and all of that. So.

⁓

You know, I think takeaways are like, be honest in your marketing, use discretion when reading other people's marketing and realize that like it's marketing and they're trying to spin in the best way possible and ask the hard questions and do a good job.

Mm-hmm

Yeah, feel like the biggest thing is remember they're a business first even if it's a person you're connecting with like they're here to make sales ultimately And look at what they're saying from that perspective

right.

Kind of like when you see anything on social media. This is like a thing now that my oldest is getting more access to the internet. I'm like, what is this person trying to say and why? Whenever we see videos so they don't turn into like Charlie Kirk followers.

Yeah. And that's hard, right? It's a skill, right? To be able to look at something and really think about it and say like, hey, is this actually true? Is this actually realistic? And you do have to do some digging. And I think that's like where it's hard because it's so fast. you're getting ads. And then if you click on the ad, you're getting ads all the time for that thing.

And so you're getting exposure to this and you're hearing the message and your first instinct is probably to like jump in and be like, hey, I want this. And so really like forcing yourself to pause and like ask the hard questions and really think about like, is this actually in my best interest? And talk to colleague before you like jump into a big investment to see like, does this actually make sense? Like, what do you think about this? Would you spend this money?

Because sometimes having that outside perspective, somebody might be like, actually, no, that doesn't seem like the best use of your investment.

Yeah, and that's like another way of that, that fake urgency just feels so icky. Cause like you really do need to take the time to think about it and make sure it's a good decision. So when people are like, you only have 24 hours to buy, you don't eat it. The offer will probably be there later or another one just like it. Like it's not that serious.

think the other thing that I really hate is the messaging behind, if you're not willing to give it your all, you're gonna fail. And really telling people that they should spend their last amount of money or whatever it is. ⁓ It's so gross.

Yeah, that's so gross. Like there's,

there's so few things in life that I give my all and I never want to do it unless it's like sitting on the couch that I will give my all every time.

that there's this whole thing about making your business your identity. And I think because I was a teacher before, I'm extra sensitive to this because I feel like teaching was such a big part of my identity. And it's like, yes, I am a copywriter, but I'm not just a copywriter. I'm a full-fledged human, and I work nine to four most days.

Yeah.

and you know not friday but then i like check out like i treat it like a job and i think that treating it like your whole personality is not setting you up for success and it doesn't like acknowledge that you're like a full human with the family and like hobbies get some hobbies if you don't have hobbies

Yeah,

it's hobby. I feel like it's very similar as in like the parenting space, especially moms who are like typically like the primary caregiver, like default parent where it's so easy to like let motherhood be your whole identity, but you're not doing yourself any favors when it's like parenting or your business. You got to have things outside of that.

and why do they have to be connected? Like I see that a lot too with like, you know, religion is coming into a lot of business coaches now, which is like fine, but like, if that's like your niche, but it's just like, why, why are those identities connected? Like they're separate things. And like when you're working with like, I don't know, like I work a lot in the manufacturing space, like.

Yeah.

I would never refer out like a Christian business coach to like, you know, my engineers that I work with. ⁓ So it's interesting, like the way that it's niched down. I don't know. It feels, it feels weird to me to like, make it so much of your identity instead of just like a piece of what you do in your work.

Yeah.

That's valid like I You kind of market more towards mom business owners, obviously, you know, but Most of my clients aren't actually moms But yeah, I think just if I this is something I've actually been thinking of Not putting mom in there but focusing more like the time-saving strategies because that's why I did it because

Kind of.

Yeah, it's not something I want to spend a ton of time on. Like I said, I want to do as much as I have to to get the results I want. And sometimes I have very little time to do it. using that without mentioning moms is like perfectly fine.

And I think like for you it makes sense because it's part of your story, right? Like it's part of your brand. Yeah. But I also feel like, I don't know, reading your stuff, like I'm not a mom, but I don't feel like your whole brand is about being a mom. Like you're not really like putting your kids out there and talking about what's going on with your kids and talking about motherhood. You're really saying like, you know, this is.

Yeah.

how to do the thing when you don't have time. And that's it's great for moms. Like it's not really like you're not bringing in that parasocial relationship necessarily where you're like, here's what my kid struggled with yesterday. Buy my thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah,

that's a that's another thing I feel like I could go on like a super long tangent about is like people that use their kids for content. Can we not? Can we not? I feel like I share on my personal social media, I will share like pictures of my kids because that's it's private. But like using my kids for content is so weird to me. Like they're not old enough to consent to be like on the Internet like that.

I don't know, it makes me feel kind of gross.

I'll be interested to see how this plays out when these kids are older and they need therapy to reflect on why they're on the internet so much and why people know their whole lives.

Yeah.

I haven't seen it, but there's also some documentaries on Netflix for child influencers and the crazy relationships they have with their parents and how negatively affected the kids. I think California is making laws about it too now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's weird. ⁓

It's good documentary.

Yeah,

they're making laws. basically is like they because child actors have like really strict laws, but there are no laws for like the influencer space. It's so

you

Right.

Because the

parents are making money off of these kids and like forcing them to perform just like an actor. Like it's a weird thing. I don't understand. like, yeah. Right. And even just sharing pictures of my kids online, I'm a little wary about. The internet is a weird place.

It makes me sad. I'm like, can you just let your kid be a kid?

It would be one thing if if like kid led, you know, and you're like, Hey, like, you're a middle schooler and you want to like do something fun, like with your friends, let's create a YouTube channel. like, then it like crosses the line into like, you're making tons of money and like, your parents are your managers now.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's like a lot of regulation that needs to happen there.

that seems to be the theme of this episode.

Yes.

Yeah, for sure.

All right, I feel like we could talk about this forever and ever and then we want several tangents.

Honestly, yeah.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, we do have other lives to lead. So, probably wrap it up.

We can wrap it up, but if you have your own story of the online space, we would love to hear it.

Yes, absolutely. I know you don't spend too much time on social media now. Where is the best place for people to connect with you?

All of the updates for my business will be on my email list so you can just find me at staceybaragacopy.com and join the email list if you want the updates.

Yes, definitely do that. She has great, helpful emails. And I am on Instagram at SydneyOBrien.co if you want to share your story with me there.

Awesome.

well, thank you so much for coming and ranting and and venting with me.

Yes, thanks for having me.