Dr Louisa Ashley, Head of Subject (Postgraduate) interviews Dr Jill Dickinson, Dr Agata Fijalkowski, Dr Suzzie Oyakhire, and Dr Anne-Marie Greenslade around the projects they’re working on, their motivations behind them, benefits and challenges to their research, and next steps for their work.

So, hello, welcome. Here we are for our introductory podcast.

We're going to be hearing from.

Four fantastic colleagues today, all based at Leeds Law School and all women, so we're celebrating women in legal research. We're going to be having a little chat with each of the four individually. But just so you know who I've got sat with me today.

I have Dr Jill Dickinson, who is a reader within the law school. I have doctor Dr Agata Fijalkowski., who is also a reader in the law school. I'm also pleased to have Dr Suzzie Oyakhire, who is a senior lecturer and joined the law school in April 2023 and then last but not least, I have Dr Anne Marie Greenslade, who is a senior lecturer here in the law school and completed her PhD with US and graduated from that in, oh, Anne Marie. When was it now? Two years ago? Two years ago. OK. Fantastic.

Jill, let's, let's start with you. So you're a former solicitor. You worked, supervising trainee solicitors.

Workplace students and part of that work inspired you to move into academia, where you, I believe, have principally focused on the areas of place making and professional development. So hoping you'll tell us more a little bit more about place making because that's a fascinating area you've been shortlisted for National Teaching Fellowship and you were selected as a reviewer for the Advanced Global Teaching Excellence Awards.

And your approach has also been recognised in the Emerald Literati Awards for excellence and through your roles on a number of editorial boards and committees. And I don't know how you manage it. But then in your spare time, you also like the outdoors, so you're cycling, skiing, walking, and you've recently taken up paddle boarding. So if you manage to stay upright on a paddle board, then obviously you can achieve anything you put your mind to.

Welcome, Jill. I wondered if you could just ever so briefly provide an overview of your book, which has already been published, I believe, yes. So if you could give us its title, just say a little a little bit about the the book and just expand a bit on your motivation and inspiration, if that's OK.

Thank you. Louisa. Yeah, that's great. So the book's entitled Professional development for practitioners in academia. Pracademia. It was published by Springer earlier this year. It's a multidisciplinary collection. And I Co edited it with a former colleague of mine, Terri Lisa Griffiths from Sheffield Hallam University. And the book draws together perspectives from around 29 contributors from across the UK and internationally, and it critically examines the concept of pracademia, and it aims to further develop understandings of the contributions that academics can make and really champion the benefits of building a diverse faculty for everybody involved. So the intended audience is really broad. And so it includes leaders, policy makers, professional bodies.

Those who, like me, have already moved from practise into academia.

And then people who are maybe contemplating such a move as well.

It's structured around 3 core themes of academic identities, professional development and teaching practise, and includes a mix of empirical, theoretical and reflective approaches. And those topics in case that's of interest include things like building networks, practise informed teaching, doctoral studies, impostor syndrome, cultural adjustment and managing dual professional identities. Finally in terms of motivation and inspiration for the book. So in terms of career background, I'm a former solicitor. When I moved from practise into academia, I really quickly found that there was a lot involved in making that career transition. So working towards a doctorate, publishing research being returned in the Research Excellence Framework or REF as it's known.

And then that was all. Alongside studying for a teaching qualification teaching sorry taking on module and course leadership and becoming an academic personal tutor. So I really, you know, wish I'd have had something like this when I was making that career move and I'm really hopeful that it might help others too.

Thanks, Jill. Yeah, it's a fantastic resource, isn't it? I think trying to sort of bridge the gap between the very practical provision of legal services and then providing the student experience in the study of law. And as you say that the different cultures within those two different entities and institutions, but the Cross fertilisation as well is so rich.

And I think it's fantastic that we've got this contribution that's really celebrating that, but is also providing some guiding principles. And I just wanted to ask you, Jill, because obviously you were undertaking interviews as part of the the research for the book. And I wondered what was one of the most or what might have been surprising elements that you discovered during that process while speaking to people?

So where the research started was with some focus group interviews and then we moved from there to produce this multidisciplinary collection. But yeah, when we were doing the initial research interviews, it was it was fascinating. So we did some focus groups with academics and some of them were telling us how they felt like when they moved from practising to academia. It was like falling off a Cliff.

And they felt like they were starting from scratch. And some of these were quite, you know, they'd had quite senior roles in practise. So it was really interesting to hear first hand about their experiences. And that really helped drive forward the idea for for this book.

Oh, yeah, really fascinating. Thank you. So if you had one piece of advice, if someone else was going to embark upon a similar project, what? What advice would that be?

Thank you. Definitely speak to others who have published to find out about what they felt worked or not about their approach. You know what they do differently or the same next time have an action plan. I love an action plan, but be prepared to build in flexibility. You know, these kinds of projects can take a couple of years from start to finish. However much you plan, they'll always be unanticipated issues and that you just couldn't have foreseen. And I think the main thing for me is very much consider working with others. It can really help to make the process more enjoyable and doable.

And I think it's always interesting and helpful to have different perspectives to draw on, particularly when it comes to making key decisions about the books, potential direction.

Lovely. And I know you've been very active, Jill, haven't you? There's been lots of follow up presentations. You've been invited. I know you're speaking to the committee of Heads of Law school soon, so sounds like you've got a really great sort of future steps in terms of the dissemination of this research and taking it further.

Yeah, hopefully, Louise. Yeah. I'm excited to see where we go next. So yeah, thank you.

Great. Thanks, Jill. So I could say, let me just introduce Agatha to everybody. So as I said earlier, Dr Agata Fjelkowski joined Leeds Law School as a reader in July 2019. She completed her PhD in law at the University of London and has published extensively in the field of transitional justice as well as holding numerous prestigious fellowships, Agata’s ongoing research interest is in the dispensation of justice after the aftermath of World War Two in central east and Southeast Europe, and she's received funding from the socio Legal Studies Association to carry out research about Polish lawyers from this period who shaped key legal principles in International Criminal law and Agata’s got this wonderfully interdisciplinary approach.

Having a home both in law and in the humanities, and fantastically. And congratulations, recently completed a Masters in screen writing here at Leeds Beckett University. Her screenplay draws upon her legal research to tell the stories of protagonists whose confrontation with the law gives the viewer pause to think. I don't think we've got that screenplay in production yet, but if anyone is listening and they're interested in, you know, coming forward with a pitch, then we'd we'd love to hear from you.

So, Agata, could you just see you? You've you've recently had your your book published and you had a very, very successful book launch in London hosted by the Institute for Advanced Legal Studies. Can you just tell us the title and just a little bit of an overview about what you're looking to achieve within that, that publication?

Thank you Lousia for that Introduction.

Very, very much actually. So the title of my book is law, visual culture and the show trial. It's published by Routledge, and it's published within the discourses of Law Series and the book, I would refer to something that's special about it, and I'm trying to showcase what's unique about it is that it addresses and it unravels cultural, historical and political implications of visualising law, and it is the first full, full blown, if you like, exploration of law and visual culture that is set within this context of central, Eastern and southeastern Europe.

These are show trials. Show trials, broadly understood, and I argue that images are an ideal starting point for appreciating how a slight shift in our engagement with an image has the potential to unlock very important and significant narratives about justice. And my discussion looks at three unconventional figures. The protagonists lived in Stalinist Albania, East Germany and Poland, so the time period is 1944 to 1957, roughly thereabouts. If we're taking dating the images that I look at.

I argue that the visual depictions of the show trials within the photograph have an effective power and influence, and they also possess a sort of transformative if you like, authority because of the effectivity of the law.

Law and performance are intertwined and performativity is an attribute of the law. Within my book, I'm not so much interested in getting into the semantics of what a show trial is, but for the purposes of the discussion it has to do with the maladministration of justice in relation to these three different case studies and what I would like to do is argue that only showcasing the fact that the relationship between law and visual culture is one that goes back in time, but also the fact that we can engage with the image as an important data set that works very well along other sources of law.

Fantastic. I was just thinking then that, you know, we it's such a fascinating area, isn't it? Because we don't necessarily think of law in visual terms outside of the standard symbols of the law. You know, the, the, the sort of the dress of the judiciary and the building of the court and the internal furniture of a courtroom and that kind of thing. But I think. And because we've spoken before, and I and I, I've I've had the the pleasure of looking at the images that you are referring to, and how much they speak to us about that, that moment and the the political context, the social context as well. And it just got me thinking then about how persuasive images are, but also how they are part of the the rhetoric and the propaganda and and the media use as well. If we still think about some more recent cases as well. So it's really interesting.

In terms of the motivation and inspiration for the book, I'm thinking back to a conversation that we had some time ago now and am I right in thinking that it was a particular image that then prompted and opened up this avenue of exploration for you?

Yeah, I mean, I so I I engage with a lot of archival research and I feel lucky in that sense. I I think it's a very inexplored discussion. If you like, within law and humanities itself, and I just when I was in actually in Albania trying to find trial transcripts, I came across an image of a woman in a black veil dressed in dress in black.

It's a black and white image, but you can see that what she's wearing is is, is black with a microphone, and this microphone is one of those silvery Hollywood like microphones. And you could see people in audience behind her. And I wasn't quite sure what's going on there, but the stance of this this woman. Before this microphone, I mean, to this day, it is something that captivates and I think I can attest to the fact that it captivates a lot of variety of different people who've seen this image, and it was of the political dissident Mussina, Kokolati, and then later just by accident, again. Coincidence. I came across her trial transcript and that I found it was her and her her own show trial. And the reason she was dressed in black was a movement of protest because her brothers had been executed by the authorities. So she was sort of sending this unspoken message to the court that was trying her.

So that that was that was something that provoked this particular project actually. And it made me think about the emotion that is part of the image, so very much in Susan's own talk, it lingers with you. We are always going back and wondering and that's why these narratives are so important to visit and discus, because it's and still an incomplete history, If you like, of this particular period in time in these particular case studies.

Thank. Agata. So just one final question for you. What was the most challenging aspect about this particular project, and I suppose this links to how would you advise someone who might find themselves in in a similar situation?

I think that if one wants to undertake archival work, which I would encourage anyone who's interested in looking at something like that to do, but the challenge is you're never quite sure what you find in the archive, so it's not only a question of like sometimes the administration that's involved in relation to accessing particular materials you don't know what you find when actually you are there, but also to always bear in mind critically. What sorts of information is made available by the archive itself? Because archives are very much in control of the kind of official narrative that it seeks to set out as part of a wider state narrative that has to do with the historical memory, yeah.

Lovely. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. It's fascinating. And yeah, available for purchase online along with Jill's pracademia book. So you know, please, please feel free people to to go out there and grab a copy. OK. So next we have Doctor Suzzie Oyakhire who joined the Leeds Law School in as a senior lecturer just recently in April 2023.

Suzzie, you hold a Bachelor of Law degree from the University of Benin, a Masters of law which you specialised in international law, and then your PhD is from the University of Cape Town in South Africa.Suzzie has published in areas of criminal law and justice and international economic law, in particular international trade.

She is developing and continuing to develop research in issues focusing on victim and witness protection concerns, taking a comparative approach to this. And again in spare time how anyone manages to have any spare time when you're coming out of just having prepared a book for publication is beyond me. But you enjoy watching movies and dancing before we get on to the book. Suzzie, I just want to know what kind of dancing in particular.

Nothing. I just love to dance to music. So hip hop, hip hop music any form of dancing moving my body will do. Yeah. I just and imagine that I'm dancing to an audience and go with it.

Any kind of movement? Definitely. Well, it raises the spirits, that's for sure. I love dancing. I used to like dancing in the kitchen with my children and OK, so.

I'd be really interested to know a little bit more about your your recent book, Suzzie and the the motivations for you publishing in that particular field. The title of the book, just Your experiences. Because am I right in thinking that your book built upon your PhD thesis?.

So thank you, Louisa, for the introduction. So the book is titled Witness Protection and criminal Justice in Africa, Nigerian in international perspectives and to just published in June of this year by Ralph Ledge. And it was part of the contemporary issues in criminal justice and Procedure series. So like you rightly said, it's actually a modified version of my doctoral thesis. OK. And it's explored the concept of witness protection, which is still at an early development and the developmental stage in several jurisdictions, including Nigeria, but more importantly, the concept is one that lacks clarification and so recent developments in the Nigerian criminal justice space prompted the need to clarify the conceptual and legal issues within the concept of witness protection. So using the Nigerian case study, the book eliminates some of these obscurities inherent to the concept of witness protection.

But those were highlighted around 5 critical areas.

For example, what the definition of witnesses who will require protection, the scope of crimes that will require protection. The nature of the protective measures that should be available, the administrative control of witness protection, but more significantly, even the definition of witness protection itself. OK, so the clarifications made in the book are utilised in making nomative proposals for development, developing a legal framework for witness protection in Nigeria.

And for many African countries that may be interested in developing their own practise in terms of my intended audience, it will serve as a reference point for legal scholars, researchers, academics, especially postgraduate students and policy makers, criminal justice experts interested in the concept of witness protection. The book fills an important gap, as is currently in notebook that focuses on the Nigerian practise and how it shapes the understanding of witness protection, so by discussing witness protection using the Nigerian perspective, my book actually contributes to that African conversations on the topic

In terms of motivation, any knowledge of witness protection actually or the idea itself was actually limited to scenes from blockbuster movies from Hollywood. There was really nothing. In fact, my earliest influence on criminal law and justice were from movies or John Grisham novels that I read in my teenage years. However, a personal experience with police officers from a particular police station somewhere in Lagos, Nigeria, raise concerns about my safety, as I had to move out of my accommodation and because I had made some formal complaint against them. Now this singular encounter got me curious about mechanisms.

What mechanisms were in place to protect witnesses, or anyone who had reported civil wrongs or criminal justice? You know, at criminal activities now this coincided my curiosity actually coincided with my desire to begin my doctoral studies, and so that formed the basis of my dissertation or my research. OK, at the time, my curiosity was just limited to knowing the practicalities of witness protection.

But with time I realised that the concept was more complex than I imagined, and in fact, depending on which criminal justice practitioner or actor I spoke with, the concept had a different meaning. And so for four years as a doctoral student, I tried to deconstruct the concept of witness protection while ensuring to take into consideration practical limits in which witness protection can be proposed for developing countries like Nigeria.

Absolutely fascinating, Suzzie. Thank you. Yeah, I've got all sorts of things spinning around my head having listening to you. To you speak there. You know, I'm thinking about the the nature of dangers to to witnesses, not only in the Nigerian context and the African context, but worldwide as well. And the similarities, the differences. And also thinking about particularly in those sort of high profile cases, but also not in the high profile cases.

You know that those instances where we've got members of a local community that are being encouraged to come forward as witnesses and some of the difficulties that they may have and that the experiences in that respect. And I just wondered if as as part of your research, what was the most sort of revealing aspect for you know sort of was, was there a particular light bulb moment? Or a particular challenge or problem that that really sort of stuck with you.

So most of the conversations or literature and witness protection are from, you know, developed country perspectives and so much of the proposals from the usually would give suggestions that it might work in a system that's actually functioning. So one of the challenges that I encountered was trying to adapt it within the social cultural context, OK.

For example, of course, we know that it deals with high profile cases usually limited to terrorism, organised crime, but in terms of the the mechanisms available, one is to change the name. But we found that within that local Nigerian context, names are so important they have both a spiritual and a cultural origin to it, so it's not easy to tell a witness whose only motivation is to come and give evidence to change the name. So those are the kind of challenges trying to develop something that is workable Within Nigeria and not taking away from a cultural and social political setting. So yeah.

Lovely. And in terms of some advice, because you developed this book project from your thesis. How straightforward was that process?

So that, that that was a challenge because you know, while I wrote the thesis, I was a student in UCT, University of Cape Town and I had access to materials. And now at the time I was modifying my book, I was back home in Nigeria and one of the major challenges was access. OK, I needed to modify an update and I didn't have access to the materials that I was seeing. So I'll rely on my friends in institutions who had this access and that actually.

Affected my flow, because there are times I'll be seated ready to work, but I wouldn't have the materials and those are people who are busy. So I had the challenge of access, OK, but more importantly because it was a pH. Di had taken it for granted that since most of the research had been done during my doctoral studies, it would be easy to modify. But this turned out to be false because I constantly battled with the impostor syndrome. I had a question of how how to Can you imagine you yould be an author, you know, like who told you you'll be an author? I knew that there was a gap. So the impostor syndrome was something that also kind of prevented me or limited me in writing and this. But I had signed a proposal. And so this cost I'd signed a contract and I had a timeline. And this cost additional stress, but I was able to overcome this by going back to the feedback of the comments by the reviewers of my doctoral thesis. Their reports were very excellent.

And also the feedback from the reviewers. OK. And I told myself if this people, this experts believe that my research was worth something, then it meant something. And so that became a source of inspiration. So in terms of advice to people who young people writing their book, like me, I would say be kind to yourself, celebrate any task completed, no matter how little it is. And when you think you need time then you need a break. When you need a break, you need a break. But have a workable schedule, and push on to the end, it is worth it. That's what I was saying. Thank you.

I think that is there's some fantastic advice there, Suzzie. And I think what you're sharing in terms of that essentially negative in a voice with regards to the impostor syndrome can sometimes be so debilitating contact. You know, it can stop people pushing forward and pushing through. And I think reaching out to other people having mentors, having role models like yourself will really assist people with that. So thank you.

And so now going on to Anne Marie. So we have Dr Anne Marie Greenslade, who, as I say, is a senior lecturer at the. Leeds Law School at Leeds Beckett University and Anne Marie has got a background as a frontline practitioner both in the voluntary and the public sectors. And Anne Marie came to us having had experience supporting refugee communities in Kosovo and this fueled her interest in international human rights practise and research. And then later Anne Marie worked alongside the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. I understand, As an independent advocate for survivors of rape and sexual abuse.

So you were awarded your PhD, which was focusing on frontline services for modern slavery survivors in 2022. And you've won awards for your three minute thesis and the partnership for Conflict, Crime and security research snapshots you've had. One previous publication, which was a co-authored chapter in an edited volume focusing on modern slavery and human trafficking, looking in particular at the victims journey and in your spare time, you also enjoy dancing as well as sewing. So I'm just gonna ask Anna Marie, is there a particular form of dancing which is the thing that really gets gets you going, keeps you happy?

I also do not have a particular style of dancing other than chaotic freestyle. I just hear music I like and I just go for it. My friends call me Tigger. I just bounce a lot.

Excellent. I went to a French dancing festival a few weekends ago and did a dance class, and that was possibly one of the most hilarious things I've done in a long time. Anyway, that's completely irrelevant to what we're talking about today, which is finding out a little bit more about your book, which I understand you are working on at the moment. Similar to Suzzie, your book has come out of your PhD thesis. Am I correct?

Yes, you are. Yeah. So it's actually been really interesting listening to Suzzie's experiences and the advice that she's just given. Because, yeah, I'm still in the process of turning that PhD into this this published thing. So yeah, I mean the title of it is modern slavery survivor pathways, policy legislation and practise in the UK. That's with Routledge and hopefully it will get published next year 2024.

Ashley, Louisa 33 minutes 52 seconds

Brilliant. So tell us a little bit about what the key objectives of of your book are and some of your motivations around your research in this particular field.

Before my background was really at the front line supporting survivors.

And you're working alongside the criminal justice system. So this was in the UK and you start to see where the flaws are in the system. You see how victims and survivors are treated as witnesses for this bigger behemoth that is the criminal justice system, the interactions that they have with all the legal professionals with law enforcement professionals. And you're just trying to manage their expectations and you know, obviously support them emotionally.

But this for them is, you know, the most serious thing that's ever happened in their lives. It's it's a really big deal. But of course, as part of that broader system, unfortunately, there's just another statistic. And having, as you said before, having also worked abroad, working with refugees, it kind of morphed into this feeling of I'd like to actually go back and study the law and see how I could perhaps try to improve the system in some way, even if in a tiny, small way. And it it did sort of morph into doing a master's in international human rights law, which then started making me look a little bit more other types of victim survivors. So that's how I really got involved in looking at modern slavery and human trafficking. And at the time, it was a very new area of law in the UK. So the modern slavery Act only came out in 2015. So a lot of people weren't really even aware of it at all. And I just really wanted to look at how that law and how, you know, broader government policy, was being fed at the frontline and how this was actually working.

There was, you know, a few small charities building up around the UK, but it was in its nascent stages and I just really wanted to see what was working well, what areas of good practise there were and what we really still needed to work on. So I just went around and started interviewing people that were actually working at those front lines, finding out what was going on and started putting that research together as part of my PhD.

And really at the Viva, one of the pieces of advice that I asked for from my Viva examiners was, well, we know. What can I do next with this research and a few people had already said it's probably worth looking at turning it into a full book rather than chopping it up into small pieces and turning it into a number of articles. And so that's what I did. And really what I'm hoping will happen because, as I say at the beginning, the reason for studying law in the 1st place was I wanted to improve things. So I'm really hoping that as well as other academics that the book gets picked up by people that are working on the front lines, so organisations that would hopefully see those areas of good practise and where things can be improved and ideally picked up by people that actually run the country as well. So you know they get some nice advice from it.

But yeah, it's it's really about trying to improve the system overall for the people at the heart of it, who the victims, survivors, the ones that have actually been through all this in the first place.

And whose voices are really crying out to be heard.

So for any policy makers that are listening right now, please do get in touch for some guidance and advice there. One thing that I did want to ask you Emery because obviously researching in this particular field you're dealing with very sensitive subject matter.

The people that the law is designed to protect and assist are often very traumatised and in need of access to other services and and support networks, and I just wondered what your overall sense was in that respect and the nature of the support for people working in this field, given the people that they are supporting themselves.

So you thinking about things like vicarious trauma and how those practitioners actually support themselves and look after themselves? Yeah. I mean, it's something that one organisation in particular was really hot with because they they did recognise that. So with the nature of any sort of work where things like counselling and therapy or frontline support work, you've usually got something called clinical supervision. And that is where you speak to somebody.

It’s not quite counselling, but it is a form of being able to offload and address any issues that you have with particular clients or anything that you may feel that actually yeah, this is really getting to me. And so this is something that one organisation has already got the ball rolling with. They've already put in place clinical supervision. It's not something that's necessarily mandatory, but it is an area of good practise that I've mentioned in that book.

Lovely. Thank you. Well, what, what a wonderful time I've had listening to all of you speaking today four very, very different areas of focus and all really vital and important individually. But I think also collectively they speak to some really crucial matters of the time, you know, and I know I get to. You're looking at archival stuff, but it's fascinating, isn't it, to see how the narratives and the stories of the past continue to be played out today in, in the present day.

So thank you everyone and I hope our listeners have enjoyed it and there will be an opportunity in subsequent podcasts to do a bit more of a deep dive into each of these areas and to hear more from our authors and how their projects and their future research are progressing. So that's it. Thank you all of you. And we'll be together again very soon.