Shownotes
In this comprehensive episode of the Women's Room Legal Division podcast, listeners are introduced to the diverse journeys and insights of Millie and Anastasia, a trainee solicitor and paralegal at the beginning of their legal careers. The discussion covers pivotal topics such as the motivations behind choosing a career in law, the academic and application processes, and effective strategies for navigating career fairs and law firm applications. The speakers offer practical advice on creating tailored applications, leveraging resources like Legal Cheek and LinkedIn, and maintaining organised application records. They also delve into the emotional resilience needed to handle rejection and the importance of persistence. Further, the episode explores the varied educational routes to becoming a solicitor, including insights into the Graduate Diploma in Law (GDL) and the Solicitors Qualifying Examination (SQE). Millie and Anastasia share their experiences with online and on-campus studies, the challenges of balancing work with exam preparation, and the importance of resilience in the face of setbacks. Listeners are encouraged to utilise prep courses, and practice tests, and maintain their commitment to succeed in the legal field.
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Transcripts
So today I have two trainee solicitors on the, on the line. And one of them happens to be my daughter, Millie. Hi Millie. And one of them happens to be my goddaughter or adopted goddaughter, Anastasia. So, thank you both so much for agreeing to do this. I know it's probably a bit strange because you know me so well.
but I know you are right at the cutting edge of, Understanding what needs to be done in order to actually land a job in law and then to qualify. So, I wanted to talk a bit about the process of, you know, how did you make the decision, the road to qualification, finding a job, what advice you'd give people.
So, let's start off. I'd love to hear from both of you about your decision to study law. Like, how did you decide it was what you wanted to do? So, Anastasia, why don't you go first?
[:It was, you know, for all intents and purposes interesting, at least to some extent, I think maybe I view that slightly differently now on a daily, but generally, I always thought that it would be a good career. And so I think I knew always that that was what I wanted to end up doing. But I think I sort of spoke to people who were working their careers in law.
And, when I was sort of like, Pre sort of GCSE A level type thing where you had to start thinking more seriously about university and what it was you wanted to do more specifically. I started speaking to people who were working in law firms, you know, through Erica and people she worked with who were slightly younger and more junior in their careers.
And I think the consensus was that Law as a degree ended up not having much bearing on a career as a commercial corporate solicitor and that I should take the opportunity to pursue, broader interests in terms of things I had topics I had enjoyed studying at school and then I would be with the law conversion I'd be able to make.
that decision about, you know, when I was sort of older and had more of an idea, was it something that I still really wanted to do? So I did, an undergrad in history and politics. And then after that, I did a law conversion combined masters, because that allowed me to get masters. student loan financing, and that was the route I went down.
[: [:no, so I guess slightly different to Anastasia, my decision to Being a lawyer that came a bit later. when I applied for university, I sort of looked at law undergrad purely just because both of my parents were lawyers and they both studied law at university. So it sort of came about that way. And I wasn't like completely taken by it.
And I also wasn't convinced that I was able, would be able to do that sort of degree. I sort of thought it was for a people of a slightly more intellectual caliber than I thought I was at the time. And so I decided to do philosophy and politics at undergrad and I loved it. I really, really enjoyed my degree.
And then sort of my second year at uni, I started thinking about what careers I wanted to do. And obviously law did pop into mind purely because of my parents and I'm very lucky to have had that influence. And both my parents were sort of corporate finance lawyers and sort of city lawyers in the traditional sense.
And I wasn't particularly interested in that. And so I originally thought I really didn't want to do it. And then in researching it a little bit more, I discovered this other side of law, which is sort of the family, private client side of law, where you get a little bit more of an interpersonal relationship with clients.
It seems you're helping people with their lives. And it can seem a little bit more interesting, and I don't know, I just sort of found it really fascinating. I thought it would be a really fun way to kind of bring my love for people and like, meeting people and learning about people's lives with something that would, an academic side that would kind of exercise my brain a little bit.
So I kind of latched onto that side of law and was like, actually, maybe, maybe, Maybe I should become a lawyer, not take my parents advice, the only piece of advice I like to think I've not taken. and so yeah, that's sort of what, why I decided to become a lawyer.
[:And in fact, increasingly nowadays, People aren't doing law degrees and increasingly firms really like the fact that people aren't doing law degrees. So you can do anything and you can still qualify as a lawyer. And the second thing I want to say is obviously you've heard from Anastasia and Millie that they both were lucky.
They were surrounded by lawyers were particularly solicitors. And so they were really exposed to what it was like being a lawyer. Understanding, you know, what does it really entail? And although nepotism really does not exist in the law nowadays, because at least in the world of solicitors, because even to get a summer placement, it's incredibly difficult to do it through friends.
Occasionally a client's child will be allowed to come for a short period, but it's all very much controlled through these sort of processes. They have an interview process processes, even for holiday placements. But what it does mean is that you do know about how it works and that this world exists and that these jobs exist.
and I always think if you look at often people's children go into careers where their parents have been involved because they understand that world and they actually know. That job exists. And one of my sons, for example, worked for a while for an asset manager. and I worked as a lawyer for an asset management company.
He probably wouldn't have even known about asset managers if I hadn't worked there. So if you're interested in law, what you need to do is try and find some people that you can talk to who've worked in the law and people are usually incredibly generous with their time. So get in touch with people, talk to them about what they felt about their career.
Try and learn a bit about exactly what does this mean? What's the difference between a solicitor and a barrister? And in fact, when Millie was thinking about law, I've always sort of thought, oh, I probably would have quite liked to be a barrister, at least a barrister who appears in court as opposed to a more academic barrister.
And so, but I had no clue about how do you go about becoming a barrister. And so we found some people that we could talk to who tried to explain the system to us. So it's a really great thing to do is find some people to talk to who will educate you, about what's involved. So, so let's, let's then move on a bit.
So you're both at university and you're not studying law. So when do you first have to do something to start going on the path towards qualifying as a lawyer, going to law school, thinking about applying for jobs? What's the ideal time whilst you're doing a degree to start thinking about that?
[:It's like first year law students and then second year non law students is the sort of earliest time that you can start thinking about insight days and vacation schemes and that kind of thing.
[:What should they do? What should they Google? What should they look up? How do they, how do they educate themselves?
[:I can only really speak to like the city and more corporate, I guess, Millie, you have a bit more experience. Thanks. Bye. The other side, they sort of send teams down there. They're like graduate teams and and various solicitors and you can go and speak to them and get an idea about the firm. And I actually think.
Aside from doing your own research, which I obviously always have to do, I think that's one of the best ways to do it. People often remember people that they spoke to at career fairs. And, you know, I always found that people's like firms websites felt quite obscure that it wasn't clear to me what they would specialize in.
Whereas, you know, I think every solicitor working at a firm should be able to speak to what the nature of their work is and why that firm is sort of. for or not for you.
[: [:There's one called Legal Cheek, which is sort of a blog website that's really useful for researching firms who've got so much information from you know, what the firm's famous for to the pay, like the trainee pay and the NQ pay, how many trainees have been kept on. It's a really good resource for if you're applying and wanting to learn more about a firm.
And they do an online law fair, which kind of similar thing, a heck of a lot of law firms go attend and go to,
[: [:But I felt like it was always quite a nice thing to do because A, they have taken time out of their day that's super busy to speak to you. And also it does show that you are really interested. And ultimately, I feel like that's kind of what firms want to see. So don't be afraid of sort of taking that.
extra step. The worst thing they'll do is ignore it and not reply. And realistically, that's not that big of a deal. and then the best thing is that they could reply and actually, you know, send your name to the recruitment people being like, I would take an extra look at their application. They were really, really great to speak to.
[:So don't be scared. Don't hold back from doing that sort of thing. So then I can't, did you, did you two do summer placements anyway? You did, didn't you? So tell me about it. So there's a separate application process for the summer placements to the training contract. Tell me a bit about, did you both apply for summer placements or Easter placements?
[: [: [: [: [:So sometimes it can be combined. but yeah, I applied. I applied in my second year at uni and didn't get any. And then I applied again in my third year and I very luckily got, got two vacation schemes. But I found that doing the application process in my second year was actually quite useful because you know, it's sort of good practice.
You knew what the type of questions they were going to ask, particularly at the interview stage, you knew a bit more how to prepare for it. and so I would definitely still do the exercise in your second year, even if you're not a hundred percent sure if you want to pursue law, it's still a
[: [: [: [: [: [:You had to put in every single grade from every module at university, which was so fiddly and you'd have to do it for every law firm you wanted to apply to. And so it was sort of your personal details and then us answering a few questions, sort of like, At least on my side, like, why commercial, like, why corporate law, why this, why, you know, what, what tell us a story in a new story that's interested you and how it might affect clients or that kind of thing.
and then that was the 1st step and then I think my understanding is that they send pretty much everyone from that stage on to do. some sort of psychometric. I think when I was doing it, Mr. Watson Glaser was the particular favorite. I do think that some firms are moving away from that to slightly more, interesting or like testing different skills, kind of psychometrics.
and then, if you did that, maybe, then through to various stages of interview.
[: [: [:So you want to get your application in early, but I think now a lot of the time it's sort of once it's closed, they look at the applications.
it
[: [: [:I think there was a website, I think it was called the Corporate Law Academy, where people would, these threads would appear about training contracts and people would be posting like questions or people who had been successful the year before would kind of provide advice on, on, on their application and people retrading, like, You know, stories or information or helpful tidbits.
I think they're a great resource, but often can be quite anxiety inducing with people posting. Oh, you know, I just got offered the next stage or interview. I got a call and people be like, Oh, when was your interview date? And so I think. You know, whilst they're great resources, it's important not to get bogged down in too much, spending too much time on these threads.
[: [:And it sounds, I mean, that sounds like such an obvious thing to say, but it takes actually a surprisingly long time to create these answers. And there's also often a word limit, usually around 500 words and actually getting it in that word limit
[: [:into other applications. A really good piece of advice I was given when I was doing those written applications was they called it the NANDOS test. And it was if you can take the law firm's name out of, you know, your little answer and insert NANDOS, would it still make sense? So I love the diverse client base of NANDOS.
I love the diverse client base of this law firm. It still makes sense. And therefore it's not specific enough. The next stage is you take out the law firm that you are writing to and put in another law firm that's kind of a similar competitor. Does it still make sense? If it still makes sense, you need to go and be more and more specific.
I thought, I mean, it's quite tricky to get.
[: [: [: [: [:They really care to feel that the applicant is focused on their law firm. I think they know that every applicant is doing, you know, at least five applications a cycle, and they want to hear from you.
[: [:But I think. you know, nine times out of 10, everyone's going to be have, you know, the same grades, you know, more or less. And this is the point that can really make you stand out for that law firm above everything else. Yeah.
[: [:And then again, I do think like websites like Legal Cheek or Roll on Friday are quite good. Ultimately, I think if you can speak to someone who's at the firm, that's kind of the best thing. So if you speak to someone at one of these law fairs, and I found that quite often law firms sometimes like it if you name drop, I spoke to this trainee, and they said this because it really Shows that you've made the effort to reach out, and attend one of the law firms or message them on LinkedIn or something like that.
so yeah, try and just use all the resources that are available to you. Talk to other people who are applying, like what are they saying, you know, help each other through the process.
[:And I think that if your application refers to something you've learned on those kind of courses, again, it just goes to show that you've, you've taken the time to really get to grips with their work.
[:Would you ever do that?
[: [: [: [: [: [: [: [: [:I think an opening specific question would work quite well because I can give a response and that follow ups are fine, but opening questions are difficult because you don't know enough about the person or all these things. I think I would personally feel easiest to respond to write a specific question.
[: [: [: [:Because if you've got the VAC scheme, and you finished it, you can, you go kind of straight through to the training contract stage, or you can go through, as in like to the interview stage. We'll hold interviews at the end of the vacation schemes for training contracts. Okay. But the actual application is, is pretty much identical.
[: [:And I'd be answering, why do you want to work here? And I'd be like sat there in the library being like, oh, don't. I'm trying to think of an answer. and so actually, while you definitely need to do quite a few, I wouldn't like spread yourself too thin, like, because as I said, like, you've got to be quite specific in these applications.
They do take a surprisingly long time. And even just the filling in results, it takes such a long time. You don't have time to apply to like 50 firms. I think I apply to maybe about 10 or 15, maybe, I think, like, next.
[:I think definitely I would go. quality of a quantity. There is numbers game to some extent, but I think anything above like sort of maybe 15 is, you're going to spread yourself too thick. I think that was my mistake as well, that I would try and I knew that I would have to put X number of applications out there and, and it meant that I was less specific than I should have been.
[: [:And obviously don't let yourself be disheartened thinking that, you know, everyone gets it first time round and that's how it works. You know, if you do 10 one year and. You realize actually you can narrow it down the next year, having spoken to more people or gotten a better idea.
[:automated responses quite often rejecting you. I, I have a story where my son was applying to a law firm where I was a partner and was asked to, where I wasn't a partner currently, but I'd been a partner. and he had to answer a question about what do you see as the future of the law? And so I wrote a very fine response to this.
I think people would have paid a lot of money for, and we submitted it, got rejected the next morning.so, you know, who knows what they're looking for? Who knows what the machines that are analyzing these answers are looking for? Cause it's not always human beings. Is there, so tell me, like, tell me a bit about rejection and what you felt.
And then any tips for how you dealt with it?
[:And actually, when I was kind of doing the application process, I don't know if I told you this, in lockdown, we're clearing out some cupboards and we found, so like, obviously, my dad was a lawyer, a solicitor, ends up becoming a partner at Magic Circle Firm, great career in law, all this stuff. And we found, loads of rejection letters from law firms that he'd applied to back in the day.
It gave me some perspective of he ended up having a really successful career in law, despite having had all these rejections. And I think you see people like Erica or whoever, you know, who have great careers in law, and you think that they never. went through this process that the people who, you know, rose to the top and became the top lawyers didn't have that.
And so I think for me getting that perspective on actually everyone goes through this, everyone gets the rejection, that actually made it easier to think about, okay, you just have to do it again. You have to, if this is actually what you really want. And I think that's a way of. That the law firms also ultimately like separate the wheat from the chaff is if you do the applications, you know, it will it will happen one like one way or another if you keep.
if you know that that is what you really want.
[: [:I was like, yeah, okay, they don't want me. I'll move on to the next one and just keep going. But you definitely do need to have, I think, a thick skin. It is, like, it really isn't personal at all. Even at the final stages, when a human's making the decision, they just, they have a set quota of what they want and you never know the decision making that goes into it or why this person gets over this person.
And you just have to, like, keep going and keep feeling, keep that determination going. And it is really, really difficult, but every single person who's applying for these. places and who has got them has done the exact same thing. Like no one has really got their place never being rejected from any other firm, really.
I'd be very surprised. so yeah, thick skin and just staying really determined and as positive as possible.
[:And I work with them. They do the job every day that, you know, very similar to what a trainee would be doing at most big corporate firms and they get rejected from these law firms. And so it's not about whether you are, you can do the job. As Maddie said, it's a metric that's unknown to anyone, even people working law firms, you know, I think wouldn't be able to give you a good answer on why you were rejected from that firm.
And so I think, yeah, as we said, like, the ultimate thing that will get you a job in law is just Keeping going. Yeah. The next cycle, whatever it is.
[:So. Yeah, but it is, you know, I think hearing both of you saying you found it tough, is useful. And maybe talk to other people who are going through it so that you can, you know, commiserate and, you know, and share the pain when you are rejected. Because whatever happens, it's always going to be painful.
It's never going to be, you know, Nice. So now let's let's let's move on a bit because obviously both of you have gone down slightly different paths and millie You're now doing a training contract in a firm and anastasia.
You're you're working as a paralegal. Tell me a bit about, let's do non law. So what do you have to do if you didn't study law? What are the exams that you have to do post not studying law?
[: [: [:Qualified solicitor, you no longer have to do a law conversion course so that you could technically do a degree in history and then go straight into taking the SQE1. I think from my perspective and my understanding is that you would have to be someone extremely special to have had no formal legal training and go straight into taking the SQE1.
I think having now done SQE1 and SQE2 that the doing the GDL gave the foundation to be able to take the SQE2. The syllabus is very similar, but I think It would take a lot of work and I think the formal course to do the SQE1 in my experience builds on having that foundational knowledge of the law that would come with either an undergraduate degree in law or having done a law conversion.
[: [:GDL, I think like postgraduate diploma in law or something like that. Okay. But yeah, building on what Anastasia was saying in the PGDL, you do kind of the core law modules that you would do at an undergrad and it's just combined into one year.
So those core modules are things like contract law, torts, equity and trust, like the sort of basic foundations. The SQE1 prep courses build on those sort of foundational Modules in a practical sense. So, for example, you have dispute resolution, which is all about the civil court process. That's building on taught law and maybe a bit of contracts.
You have criminal practice, which is building on criminal law. So without doing the law conversion, it's quite hard to get thrown into that context without knowing the basics going on. So while obviously the mentality behind making it so you don't have to do the GDL. How to do the SQE was to make it a little bit more accessible and easier.
I would be very surprised if someone saw through the exams without having done the GDL, or if they did take a lot, a lot, a lot of work.
[: [: [: [: [: [: [:round.
Like I think eight months
[: [: [: [: [:I guess, Millie, you'd have a better idea about how you made that decision.
[: [: [:So you can, you don't have to be in London to go to the campus. And they also both run online courses, so you can do it online remotely. I know someone who did their PGDDL while they were living in Bali, and they were doing the online course, so it was great.
[: [:Contracts at the end of my final year of my undergraduate and that was the provider that they would fund us through. So my law school, I was very lucky. I got it all paid for by my firm because I got the contract and that's where they wanted to send us. But some firms send you to BPP or Barbari. It's kind of just.
Depends. but those I would say are the main providers.
[: [:And so doing that in isolation was really responsive by an author because I didn't have that training contract and sponsorship sponsorship set up. And I wanted to. You know, obviously in lockdown as well, it was the right time to start studying, knowing that this is what I wanted to work towards. And so by doing a PGDL and combined masters, it meant that I could receive additional student loans.
[: [: [: [:The, the capacity to pay for that. So the combined master has just meant that I ended up running through to July, and,getting a master's qualification.
[:When did you, when, when did you get your paralegal job and tell us about what it's like sort of looking for paralegal roles?
[: [: [:online shadowing, of someone, which was very generous, very difficult to do that online, I must say.
so, I think they just wanted to get an idea of my commitment and stuff. And then they ended up taking, a bit of a leap of faith at the end of it and saying, you know, do you want to, take a job?
s really lucky in that it was:and I was really lucky in that. The market was, was really busy. I ended up doing my first job in capital markets, and the market was really busy. And I think that that meant that they were looking for lots of support. And I think that had it been a quieter time in the market, I might not have been so lucky.
So I think it's one of those things where. Start sort of a line at certain moments and certain points in your career and that was that.
[: [:So if I'd got a job then I would have done the LPC, that's September. So I was the last year or maybe had just started. I could, I could have been in the first. like class to do it, or I still had the option to do the
[: [:So I wanted to get some experience and I was still thinking about doing, you know, vacation scheme applications and that kind of thing. I think that You know, it took a little bit of time for the paralegal SQE route to associate and qualification to become clear that that was, that was a viable option. I think that people were still set on the training contract.
[: [:And so after six months there, I took the leap because at that point, so to qualify my way, SQE1, SQE2, and even Millie's way, like you have to have two years of QWE, which is qualified work experience. And you can either do that working, which I think that the system was that it wanted people who worked in maybe more regionally and that their law firms couldn't offer a formal training contract process that two years of experience could allow you with the exams to qualify directly.
And so when I got to the point where I made the decision to take the exam, I'd had a year and a half worth of experience. And at that point I was like, I don't want to have to, cause training contracts hire on two year cycles. And so I didn't want to have to wait two years to start the two years of
[: [: [: [: [:You can do them before taking the exams, or you can, you just have to have them in order to qualify, is that right?
[:I don't know, but I have to essentially keep a log, which is an internal policy, but there are certain, like, solicitors. The competencies that I have to track as having been met, so. dealing with clients or, you know, technical work or research, all these things that I have to have covered at some point
[: [:Yeah. I guess, and I guess
[:So I guess it, it has opened up the route to qualification, which is great, but let's talk. So the exams in terms of, obviously they're still new ish. have you got any advice about, how to approach SQE1 or SQE2. And obviously, Anastasia, you were working whilst having to prepare for them, but both of you, any advice about how to deal with them?
[:So just by way of background, SQE1, it's all multiple choice. I think it's 360 multiple choice questions in total. And they're single best answer questions. So, right. Which is horrible because it
[: [:One is just the best answer. So it's quite, it's quite difficult. I feel like you do learn to get a knack with the questions sometimes and practicing all of those questions really does help. And I think doing a prep course, it gives you access to a lot of those questions.
[:As Millie said, it's, it's best to answer. And so without Millie's spoken about, you just. I don't, I, I don't, I wouldn't view that as being even viable because you would be unprepared for how, you know, the SRA or Kaplan or, you know, one of the entities who help manage it does have some questions, but not enough to across the number of topics that there are as well.
And these are long exams. I think that's fair. An hour and a half and then you get a break in an hour and a half,
[: [:I think it's like five hours of exams a day.
[:I think particularly with SQE2, which we can get onto, but I, so my approach to it, I have, there's a website called Brainscape. It's quite like Quizlet and it's essentially an online flashcard database. And I made all my own flashcards. cards for all of the knowledge points. And I would just go through them every single day, like on my phone, on the bus.
And that was a great source. So that's like, but yeah, I would say practice, practice, practice as many questions as you can and, know the law, like as much as, as much as possible.
[:You know, I had to meet sort of between 10 and 15 hours a week of studying on top of working upwards of 60 hours or, you know, 50 hour weeks. And so I think, as we said before, the thing that separated, you know, me from other people and the same situation is, is the commitment and knowing that this is what I wanted to do.
And that meant that, you know, weekends or, you know, waking up early and I work alongside, you know. Quite a few other paralegals who are doing similar thing. And I think the people who end up being successful, with the exams is just recognizing that there's a level of commitment that goes into doing that, that route of working and studying.
I know one person who ended up doing the SQE having not taken a prep course, and I think. That they were lucky given that everyone else they were working with had taken it and they could benefit from , all the, the resources. But I think, yeah, as Millie said, the prep course, especially when you're working is a guide on how you can pass, you know, I I think for me, at least working and studying, I wouldn't have been able to design and stick to my own course to allow me to pass exams. I actually did have met people who have. With the resources online and on the SRA website and the guides and that kind of thing, they bought, you know, resources online and they followed them, not doing a formal course.
Wow, okay. So it's definitely possible, but I think You have to know who you are. I know that Millie is like a phenomenal study and I think, you know, she would likely have been able to do that path. Whereas I need certain points that I have to meet and a guide and a framework that. Allows me to almost switch off my mind in terms of thinking about doing it and just doing it.
[:are to pass, and that is obviously, it is true they are a tough set of exams, but I kind of just wanted to say that they are doable if you do, like Anastasia says, really commit to the time and the studying. I think it will, for me at least, it's definitely the hardest that I've ever worked and I was very, very lucky that it did happen to, to pay off, but I just wanted to say that they are doable.
I know it can often seem like all doom and gloom and that these are impossible exams and you can get yourself completely. Wound up into a tears. I definitely was wound up on the days when I was taking the exams, but it worked out and Like if you work really hard, it would be absolutely fine
[:Do you wish you hadn't got so wound up on the days of the exam afterwards like analyzing how you done?
[:I found they were a lot harder. And then I guess that's also another warning. And I was so worried that was going to happen for SQE2 and I just really freaked myself out on the morning. And it actually turned out to be okay. The questions for SQE2, I would say, are actually quite similar to the sample ones that they gave out.
[: [:and I just really, yeah, as I said, like I didn't, I didn't have much confident going into any of my applications. I was very, very pleased and happy to get the training contract and I was just very worried about losing it. And so I think. I was always going to wound myself up, but obviously it would be nice to sort of not feel so stressed all the time, but yeah.
[: [:I think we've both pulled out of this is that things will go wrong. You won't get the job. You won't pass the exam. You know, these things do happen, but if you commit to it, and that's what you want. that that's, that's the part that will get you a career in law and will help you end up becoming a solicitor.
[:so even back in the day when there were still horses and carts, You know, people were failing and retaking and going on to have incredibly successful careers. So look, thank you both very, very much indeed. I hope that's been really helpful to anyone who's listening in. We will in the notes of the podcast, we'll put some resources for people.
and if people have questions, then just drop the podcast, a line, and at some point we'll do a follow up, to cover any questions. that, that people have got. But if you're thinking about going into the law, then do, do explore it. It's a great career. there are many different types of law you can go into, and you'll hear different women from, talking from all walks of life on this podcast, that will give you an insight into the different things you can do, if you do go into law.
And, Millie and Anastasia, thank you both so much. Thank you.
