I’m joined by experienced HR professional and trade union founder Aime Ayrehart, who shares her perspective from her HR experience and as a trade union representative on what really happens in redundancy consultations beyond the process, scoring and scripts.

We explore what tends to go wrong, how a focus on process can sometimes make things harder, and why honesty about the commercial reality matters more than trying to say the “right” thing.

There’s also a practical look at what helps: giving people space to process, communicating in a way they can actually hear, and approaching conversations in a way that builds trust.

If you’re leading or supporting redundancies, this episode offers a practical, real-world view of how to handle them in a way that works better for everyone involved.

Useful Links From This Episode

Connect with Amy on LinkedIn

Visit the Human Resources and Workers Trade Union Website

Connect with June on LinkedIn

Visit the Wildwood Coaching website

Sign up to hear about our next FREE 1 hour Redundancy Lunch and Learn

Rate and Review the Podcast

If you found this episode of Redundancy Matters helpful, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

If you’re kind enough to leave a review, please let June know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: [email protected]

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Welcome to Redundancy

Matters with me, June Hogan.

2

So this is the podcast where I

help HR professionals and leaders

3

managing redundancies to put

people at the heart of the process.

4

And in today's episode,

I'm joined by Amy Erhart.

5

Amy is someone who brings a perspective

on redundancy that you don't often hear.

6

Because Amy has led HR teams in large

organizations, but she's also experienced

7

what it's like to be on the other side as

she's the founder of the HR and Workers

8

Trade Union, and now supports individuals

as a trade union representative.

9

So she's the person people call on

when things become difficult at work.

10

So that combination gives her a really

unique insight into redundancy, not

11

just how it's meant to work, but how

it's actually experienced by people.

12

And in our conversation we explore

what can get lost when processes

13

take over, and why redundancy can

feel so much harder than it looks

14

on paper, and also what makes a

real difference when you're sitting

15

across from someone in those times.

16

So if you are leading or supporting

redundancies, I hope you find

17

our conversation helpful.

18

So let's dive into today's episode.

19

June Hogan: Welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters, and today I'm

20

delighted to be joined by Amy Earhart.

21

Now I was thinking about how to

introduce Amy in the best way.

22

, She's gonna do a much better

job of it than me when she

23

introduces herself in a moment.

24

But I've known Amy for a few

years, , through our journeys

25

into being independence.

26

And Amy has vast experience as a

HR professional, and she's also the

27

founder and leader of the HR Workers

Trade Union, which if you haven't

28

heard about it, is something which

she's gonna talk about a bit later.

29

So somebody with lots of experience

on both sides of the table, supporting

30

individuals, supporting organizations,

and fundamentally at the heart of it

31

all, Amy is someone who's very purpose

led, values driven, and everything

32

that she does, , comes from the heart.

33

So Amy, I'm so pleased, to

have you on the podcast today.

34

Aime Ayrehart: Thank you

so much for inviting me.

35

I was very excited.

36

It's, it's always a great opportunity

to talk to similar people with

37

a similar mindset, so thank you.

38

June Hogan: Ah, wonderful.

39

So that was my quick introduction, but

tell us a bit more about you what you

40

do now and what's led you to what you

do now, and just give the listeners a

41

bit more an insight into who you are.

42

Aime Ayrehart: Thank you.

43

It, it's a sort of messy journey and

complicated, so my background was mostly

44

senior public sector hr, so I ran.

45

HR departments in the NHS local

government, , until I whistle

46

blew and I guess I then had to sit

on the other side of the table.

47

But it was quite hard to get support

from trade unions, not because they're

48

not fabulous, but because most of the

time HR and trade unions are working.

49

In conflict, let's say.

50

They, we, we worked together,

but it's still, you know, so it

51

made it a little bit difficult

and I felt a little bit isolated.

52

, So when my case went through and

I did write a Amazon bestseller

53

about it, I suddenly realized

also that because I'd stuck to my

54

guns and defended staff at work.

55

Even though I was hr, I'd broken some kind

of internal corporate code where I was

56

supposed to do whatever the organization

and especially the chief exec said.

57

I mean, I never read that and I always

thought my job and HR was to balance

58

things, but apparently not always.

59

So, and I think the best HR

people do exactly that actually.

60

But I did have a tendency, I'll be

honest, to support staff, , probably

61

more than fight for dodgy bosses.

62

So.

63

I thought, well, what on

earth am I gonna do now?

64

Because like, I've pretty

much blown up my career.

65

So I set up a trade union.

66

In fact, I tried to apply to

trade unions, but they said I

67

didn't have enough experience.

68

So I thought, oh, well there's one way

of doing this, and I did it myself and.

69

, I wanted to help people who would

struggle to find help other ways.

70

So they were either HR people and

that can be difficult to find, , reps,

71

, or in the industries or in jobs.

72

So directors or salespeople or , or

even people on minimum wage who've

73

never heard of a trade union.

74

So fundamentally what we do is we are

a pay-as-you-go trade union who helps

75

people get into struggles at work.

76

, And really have nowhere else to turn.

77

They perhaps have tried the trade

unions or they need, need more support,

78

and that's where it comes from.

79

The heart led stuff because, you

know, sometimes I do do some for free.

80

I have to charge as well to

make, you know, a living.

81

But it is about trying to help people when

they get into sticky situations at work.

82

June Hogan: And I remember when you,

when you set up the, the trade union,

83

Aime Ayrehart: well, it's

actually six years now, which.

84

Has gone surprisingly quickly,

85

June Hogan: Wow.

86

Aime Ayrehart: but, but yeah, it's,

it's quite established and I was just

87

looking that, 'cause from time to

time employers try and challenge it.

88

But last year I was in the high

court defending a, , client who I'd

89

represented at the, and the judge.

90

Sits on the employment appeal

tribunals and was an employment lawyer.

91

And this top shop barrister sort of said,

well, she's not really a trade union.

92

And the judge stepped in and defended

me and I've just found today that

93

it's all in the documentation

to say we are a trade union.

94

And that is a bit waffly, but it's

like I literally just decided one day,

95

in fact, the 2nd of December, 2019.

96

That it was going to exist.

97

And because it's anti-establishment,

if you do it, it is, it exists.

98

But actually being recognized in the high

court by a very experienced employment

99

appeal judge was very satisfying because

I'm like, like I was always legitimate.

100

Does that make sense?

101

But I'm like properly legitimate now.

102

June Hogan: Yeah.

103

Oh, that's fantastic.

104

And I remember you, you

posted there was some

105

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah.

106

June Hogan: you posted on LinkedIn,

obviously not about the detail,

107

but I remember thinking, go Amy,

when I saw, when I saw that.

108

So, so, yeah.

109

And I'm sure there's.

110

Stories that

111

Aime Ayrehart: Oh,

112

June Hogan: to share with us,

113

Particularly as I'm sure you, you'll have

supported people in redundancy situations,

114

particularly, when it's gone wrong.

115

So why does redundancy matter to you then?

116

Aime Ayrehart: I think

because it is a process.

117

I mean, I have been made redundant.

118

, I have made other people redundant.

119

, I've now supported people through

the trade union who've been made

120

redundant, and organizations often

treat it as a neutral process.

121

But emotionally and relationship wise,

it is not a neutral process, especially

122

if it comes from nowhere and you

thought you were gonna stay forever.

123

So I think it matters to me because

it matters to people, it hurts.

124

It can be upsetting, it can be

discombobulating, because even if you're

125

happy with it and you've agreed to it.

126

You've then gotta get another job.

127

Probably.

128

Or even if, let's say you walk out

with you and I know that people

129

don't often get as much money

as they think they're gonna get.

130

Right?

131

But even if people walk out with lots of

money, it's still a change to their life.

132

You know, it's still how does,

how, what is my, you know, who

133

am I, what is my purpose in life?

134

So it is a complicated, messy,

emotional process so it matters

135

because it matters to people.

136

I also think it matters because.

137

, There's a lot of shame or.

138

Hidden things about these

kind of things happening.

139

So I sometimes find that clients

have told the world on Facebook that

140

I don't know, some weird medical

fact or , they come out as gay or

141

whatever, but they don't talk about

things that are uncomfortable at work.

142

And sometimes they haven't even told

their partners, their best friends.

143

And so they're really, really alone.

144

, But you lose a job.

145

Like this, people don't seem

to want to talk about it.

146

So it's the fact, it's very emotional,

but also I think it's something

147

that's so hidden and I think that

does that any You are nodding, but

148

of course they can't see you nodding.

149

So does that make, does I say,

does that make sense A lot?

150

But does that make sense

from your perspective?

151

June Hogan: yeah, absolutely.

152

And, , the shame.

153

Of redundancy is huge and it's something

that I carried for a long time but

154

didn't realize that's what it was.

155

and I do notice it in clients and

I worked with an organization many

156

years ago and these people were newly

qualified early on in their career.

157

And in, a large corporate organization

and highly thought of that business had a

158

downturn and they were no longer needed.

159

And none of them wanted

to talk about redundancy.

160

They did not want to talk

about it in interview.

161

They didn't want to talk about

it to anyone and just wanted to.

162

ways to brush it under the carpet or

find different ways to talk about it.

163

And the shame was there in the room.

164

, And it was really palpable.

165

And I do see that a lot.

166

You're right, people will

reveal all sorts of things.

167

but do they rarely talk about job loss?

168

Aime Ayrehart: Exactly.

169

And I think that's quite the

point of why we get on and we've

170

chatted over the years, isn't it?

171

Because we are often from a

different perspective helping

172

people through the same process.

173

June Hogan: Hmm, absolutely.

174

And so in your work , as a trade

union rep and I love the fact that.

175

You do this work with all of the HR

experience that you bring into the room.

176

And I've often said, , if I was ever in

a situation where I needed someone in

177

the room with me, then you would be my

number one choice and I recommend you to

178

to to friends and yeah, no, absolutely.

179

I recommend you all the time.

180

, So from your experience, what have

you noticed that kind of goes wrong

181

in a redundancy consultation process?

182

Aime Ayrehart: I think, it's, although

people tend to think it's process,

183

actually, , if you're reasonably

well qualified and trained, you

184

get the process right, but what.

185

I think goes wrong is the emotions

and the relationship stuff.

186

And what tends to happen is the people

doing the process, whether that's

187

managers, hr, need to manage their own

emotions and, you and I have been there.

188

If you are trying to make lots of

people redundant and they're crying

189

because they're saying they don't

know how they'll pay the bills,

190

that's, unless you are a, psychopath,

that is not a nice thing to do.

191

Right.

192

What I think managers and HR people do.

193

As a self protection mechanism, , is

they make it very formulaic and

194

very logical, very process driven.

195

And that is very good in terms of

protecting you from, like, you won't

196

get sued if you do the process right,

but the more they do that, the more

197

emotionally uncomfortable it feels.

198

The other side of the table.

199

So the more you make it about, well, if

you say something like, if a manager says,

200

well, we've done a matrix and calculated,

you are not as good as this person.

201

Okay, that'll, that's really good

In court, that'll defend you.

202

If someone says that to you, what, so

you've calculated what is important.

203

You've done some sort of

mathematical thing and then you've

204

decided I'm not good enough.

205

It's like that's the, so

ironically in trying to make

206

it very logical and procedural.

207

They make the emotions of experiencing

on the other side of the table worse,

208

and of course it then spirals because

the more you make the other person feel

209

uncomfortable, not intentionally, . The

more they get upset, then often HR

210

people and managers get defensive.

211

, It just escalates.

212

So that's what goes wrong.

213

I think it is people forgetting that

we are all human and it doesn't matter

214

how, like you put a chief exec or a very

senior person and when you've been in

215

HR long enough and seen you enough for

long enough, you've seen chief execs in

216

tears and shouting each other, everybody.

217

Has emotions, they might hide them.

218

Well some deal with

them better than others.

219

So I think forgetting all of

that is then people wonder, well

220

how, why did they react badly?

221

And it's well, 'cause it's horrible.

222

And whereas actually to, and I still

make some redundancies to be in the room.

223

And not try and pretend it's not

uncomfortable to try and take, and

224

notice the feelings, but still hold

them, is fundamentally difficult to do.

225

And actually what I did was went and not

suggesting this as a training strategy

226

for most, I tend to be a bit extreme.

227

I trained myself as a Samaritan and

I went and worked in a mental health

228

hospital with some of the most.

229

Long-term patients are struggling to teach

myself how to deal with any emotions.

230

So that I could not, because I

didn't wanna lose my humanity.

231

We all know HR people who

from self-protection, . They

232

put walls up, don't they?

233

It's trying to make it all more human

and trying to find a way through, but

234

recognizing it's usually very difficult

for everybody around the table.

235

Occasionally isn't, but that's dead easy.

236

It's like someone just

goes, yeah, package.

237

Fine.

238

I'm off.

239

It's like, well, that's okay.

240

But it can really hit people.

241

, I mean, , you are the other

end of it, aren't you?

242

You are.

243

You are helping organizations

deal with it, but you're also

244

helping individuals deal with it.

245

, I would imagine you get the full

remit of people's emotions once, once

246

they've got through the door, right?

247

June Hogan: Yeah.

248

Yeah.

249

And what you said there about the

matrix and the scoring , and his,

250

numbers one to 10 and , you came out

at the bottom, all that kind of thing.

251

Yes, of course.

252

That's necessary.

253

That's procedural, that's required.

254

It has to be objective, has to be

completed in the right way, moderated all

255

of that good stuff that we know about.

256

But the language that you're

using, it , can be unfamiliar

257

to people because they've never

been in this situation before.

258

And as you say, , you've,

, reduced them down.

259

To a place on a spreadsheet they've

been there 25 years and , done

260

whatever's requested of them.

261

Never had a conversation

about performance.

262

Never had any issues or

challenges around that.

263

And I think.

264

, The, of shock of redundancy can be

combined with if they have, they,

265

this is the first time they've ever

been aware of anything being an

266

issue, , in the workplace at all.

267

And that can be really hard

for people to piece together.

268

And , what I do see is going back

to the rationale, whether it's

269

one person or 100 people, that's

really important for people, as you

270

say, to try and understand this.

271

At what can be a very

vulnerable time for some.

272

, So I think getting clear on the rationale

at the start and making sure that you can

273

demonstrate it, communicate it, and that

people can connect with the fact that

274

this is hard for everyone, as you say.

275

, I think that makes a big difference.

276

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah, , I

think it's been realistic.

277

About how much the employee will take in.

278

I think one of the things

that being a rep is all about.

279

It's just being there with them

to help them, , support them.

280

, We can step in and argue and

we can actually do quite a lot.

281

You'd be surprised.

282

And in fact, in certain circumstances

when there's extreme risk to the

283

employee mental health, usually I'll

step in and literally, , become the

284

in go between, which actually HR

often pleased about because they're

285

like, we dunno how to deal with this.

286

If there's someone in between

that's better, but I think.

287

Ironically, sometimes saying

less so , say the minimum, you've

288

got to, does that make sense?

289

So if you've got a matrix in

front of you explain the broad

290

things, but don't labor each point.

291

Like you were really rubbish in last

year's sales figures and you were,

292

you do know what I mean, because

people just can't, it's too much.

293

Also, I guess, and I understand it,

there's a presumption, let's get

294

through this as quickly as possible,

but , you know, this people, it

295

takes people time to process.

296

So it's, it might be very efficient

to sit someone down for 15 minutes,

297

tell them they've been put at

risk, but often they don't hear

298

anything after the first sentence.

299

The strangest I ever had was actually

with my HR hat on, . was four people

300

in a team and we were gonna change

each of their jobs and, but we were

301

gonna offer, they were all gonna

have same salary and a job, right?

302

, But we turned up, we'd

done all the right thing.

303

I saw one person the day

after and said, how are you?

304

And she said, I didn't

see you yesterday, Amy.

305

And I'm like, what?

306

You know, when you think.

307

That was yesterday.

308

Anyway, I went and found

the trade union rep.

309

'cause I had an HR hat on at

that time and she, I said, we

310

did have that meeting yesterday.

311

She was there.

312

She says, yeah, she's completely

psychologically blank.

313

It, she is literally

denying it ever happened.

314

And I'm like, oh, that is extreme.

315

Like what?

316

That is the most extreme

reaction I've ever had.,

317

But that can happen, right?

318

She was like you've never had a meeting

putting me at risk of redundancy.

319

And I'm like, we are all there.

320

The trade union rep was there like, I

dunno whether you've ever had one of

321

those before, but that was shocking.

322

June Hogan: No, I've never had that.

323

I have, , in my own, , experience

and when I used to manage

324

redundancy processes , and through

talking , to clients throughout

325

placement is that you are right.

326

Once you hear the words, your

role is at risk of redundancy.

327

The rest of it is just a blur.

328

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah.

329

June Hogan: and I think that point

that you made there about don't have to

330

get all the information out in one go.

331

Yes, there's a procedure to follow,

but just bombarding people with all

332

of this stuff and ticking the box and

saying, we told you all this, so right.

333

Done.

334

We'll see you in two weeks.

335

It's, that's not gonna work

for everyone and that's not

336

gonna be particularly helpful.

337

So, , this notion of.

338

Well, actually, what do we have to say?

339

What procedurally has to happen?

340

Yes, that's important.

341

How do we say it in a way that

makes it human person centered kind?

342

, And then if that means we need

to have four meetings instead of

343

two, then that's what we'll do.

344

, So I think that's, it's about

connecting with the individual.

345

Aime Ayrehart: I think so, and ,. I

would say there's a balance and

346

if you spend a bit more time.

347

And I appreciate there's a cost involved

in that and that's why I think what you

348

do is fabulous, because if organizations

haven't always got the emotional

349

bandwidth and the skills to be able

to support people through the process,

350

but that's, I'd be like, if I could

force everybody to get your services,

351

I would because it will help them.

352

That's the irony.

353

It will be like, okay.

354

, It may seem like it's, I'm not

saying you're expensive, but like

355

people are like, well, it's more

than five piece, so it's expensive.

356

Right.

357

You will make your life so much easier

and , 'cause I've seen redundancy

358

processes where they've started it and

it's still going two or three years

359

later,, or the people have got together

and actually essentially caused so

360

much fuss that none of it's happened.

361

June Hogan: Yeah, and there is

that balance, as you say, between

362

commercially, , what needs to happen

if you've got, , financial year end.

363

Year end deadlines, . But then when you

are in the planning stages, , working

364

with the leadership team saying, yes,

365

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah.

366

June Hogan: do it in a month, but

actually I think it's more reasonable

367

to suggest six weeks, let, therefore we

need to start middle of January to get

368

through to the end of March, whatever.

369

So I guess putting some of that in place

upfront to give you some breathing space.

370

So in redundancy consultations

we talked about making sure.

371

That, you're really thinking

about the individual.

372

, So what do you think that as a

profession, when we're going into

373

these consultations, what do we need

to be doing more or less of, given that

374

theme that we've talked about earlier?

375

Aime Ayrehart: So I think some of

it, as I say, is just remembering the

376

emotions and where the other person is.

377

But I think when you're doing redundancy

consultation, there's specifically

378

an issue about trust and people have

learned to basically say things like,

379

this is what we're proposing, but

obviously you can change anything and

380

everything and we haven't made a decision.

381

And what over time I think

people have started to realize

382

is that's just not true.

383

That.

384

Actually they can't, they can say

something and it might change a

385

bit of it, but the chances are

depending on the process, obviously.

386

But actually , , if it's a

large scale, then they probably

387

won't be able to change it.

388

And so people perceive it correctly

or incorrectly as hugely disingenuous.

389

So I think trying to be as honest

as you can, especially about.

390

, Reasons because a lot of employees

aren't clued into the sort of strategic

391

top level financial decision making,

so they often take it personally.

392

So they think, , they're

just getting at me.

393

So I think being honest about the

commercial reality is helpful.

394

So if, I have made people redundant

in my own team where I've gone, , I

395

don't wanna make you redundant.

396

The finances of this.

397

I've thought of it.

398

I've tried to think through

everything I can, but I've

399

got to save X amount of money.

400

I don't really wanna lose anyone, but

I don't feel like I've got a choice.

401

If you could come up with any scheme

or suggestion that, , we get out

402

of this, then tell me because.

403

And that is that it lands very

differently than a kind of, but it

404

takes risk because it takes risk that

you tell them too much or tell them.

405

But I found over overall that, , trusting.

406

The employee and not treating

them like an idiot works better.

407

And explaining the honest reasons.

408

Tell them as much as they can in, in

the right context about kind of why,

409

'cause you can be kind at the same time.

410

I once got a thank you letter

after dismissing someone with a,

411

which I'll take as a career high.

412

And , what I've also found is

employees genuinely believe they've

413

got no ability to change anything.

414

And yet when I help them, so for

example, just saying at a consultation

415

meeting, I really want to stay.

416

I really want to do this, this, and

this can have a difference because

417

you can think, okay, well equally I've

been in organizations where individuals

418

have offered, or I've suggested, or

we've, where they've said, look, if

419

I work part-time for six months, if

i, help you out with this project to

420

try and get some more incoming, , and

it's like, you know what, those work

421

a lot more often than you might think

422

June Hogan: I love what you said that

in me about that theme of almost like

423

it's vulnerability and encouraging.

424

HR professionals and leaders

within their own boundaries.

425

You said, you are a very open person, so

when you were having those discussions,

426

, it was just your natural style

427

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah.

428

June Hogan: To put it

and tell it how it was.

429

But I think there does need to be a

level of vulnerability in the process

430

without, , abdicating responsibility

and, things like, , if it was me

431

then, , I wouldn't be doing this.

432

'cause that's a different message too.

433

This is, I don't wanna

lose anyone in the team.

434

You'll understand that we're facing

significant financial pressures.

435

I've thought of everything I possibly can.

436

is a really hard decision.

437

, As well as you said at the start there,

that language of, it's all up for grabs.

438

We can change whatever you like.

439

This is meaningful consultation.

440

Well, essentially, yes, meaningful

consultation means, as you've

441

just described there, put your

proposals forward, put your ideas,

442

put your suggestions forward.

443

But it's unlikely if

it's a factory closure.

444

That

445

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah,

446

June Hogan: that

447

Aime Ayrehart: exactly.

448

So say that.

449

That front and say, it's unlikely

you're gonna change the massive amount.

450

'cause the factory's going right.

451

It's like,

452

June Hogan: But you might be able to

change the fact that it closes in.

453

In six months

454

Aime Ayrehart: yes,

455

June Hogan: months

456

Aime Ayrehart: yes.

457

June Hogan: those sorts of things.

458

So I think you're right.

459

It's about being realistic, being honest,

being prepared to be vulnerable, but

460

still, I guess having that position

of, the word authority 'cause I can't

461

think of a better one, but you know,

you are in charge of the process.

462

They need to know that somebody's, guiding

them through it, and so when people are

463

in that situation and they're calling

on you , as a trade union rep what are

464

some of the benefits that you would say?

465

You mentioned there before

about if you've got someone who.

466

Either isn't taking it in,

doesn't understand, has got

467

some mental health challenges.

468

Clearly you can step in

and speak on their behalf.

469

But what are some of the other

benefits that you've noticed when trade

470

unions are working in partnership?

471

I know that's very much

what you are all about.

472

Aime Ayrehart: I think, , there's

a, there's a piece of research that

473

says that having a best friend at

work can make a massive difference

474

to your life experience at work.

475

What, fundamentally I try and

do for a short period of time,

476

and I do charge people, , is.

477

Be that best friend at work to help

you through something . Difficult.

478

But of course it's the best friend

who happens to have a law degree of

479

psychology degree, a master's in hr,

being a senior HR person, it's like having

480

a very specific type of best friend.

481

Does that make sense to

get you through that?

482

And that's why when you.

483

You might not have articulated like

that, but when people sort of say

484

I know who I'd want sitting next to

me, or I know who I would advise if

485

it was your daughter or your son or

your best mate, or whatever it, it's.

486

Yes, I can do the strategy and I can also,

I would say, I can explain, so often I

487

do some of the HR teams work for them.

488

Because, they come outta something,

they say, well, I don't understand.

489

Why did they put, and I, I explain,

no, no, that's just standard.

490

That's, you know, like sometimes

people sit, take a letter and

491

I think it's hugely personal.

492

I'm like, no, that, that letter

will have been sent to like, that's

493

not, literally isn't personal.

494

But then I can.

495

I mean, you know, when we do learning

and development, you, I will adapt

496

to the learning needs of the person

to, what are they understanding

497

about the context they're in.

498

I can also say, 'cause it's very

hard and you, you get this from an

499

HR perspective, if someone says.

500

Do you think my job will go?

501

Like they want that personal, am I gonna

go, is this, you can't answer that.

502

You really can't answer that

question without getting yourself

503

in all sorts of hot water.

504

Right?

505

June Hogan: Yeah.

506

Aime Ayrehart: You can't say it right.

507

Because it would be inappropriate . But

what I can do is say what I genuinely

508

feel so I can say to people, I'll read

the room, I'll watch people's faces.

509

I'll watch how, and say.

510

Actually, I don't think they wanna make

you redundant, but they really do think

511

the suitable job will be, , 'cause

again, suitable alternatives sometimes

512

are great and sometimes people are

worried about, but I had one case and

513

it was very commercial area and the

employee was obviously, I can't tell you

514

actual details, but until you, a loose

story where the employee was absolutely

515

certain they were out to get him.

516

And I went in quite strong in the

meeting and halfway through I'm like, I.

517

I don't think he's read it right.

518

I think this manager really

likes him and wants to keep him.

519

I don't even think there were several

people who could have been made redundant.

520

I'm thinking she wants to

keep him, not the others.

521

, So I switched tack in the middle of the

meeting and , but actually it sounds

522

like you want to keep this guy right.

523

And she just went, absolutely.

524

So I'm like, okay, so, right.

525

Okay.

526

So, and even if you can't, you,

she said, yeah, there's some jobs.

527

There might even be a promotion.

528

And this guy ended up with a promotion

and the, , and the, , manager, even though

529

I'd been quite strong, said, you are like

the best trade union rep I've ever met.

530

I was like.

531

I'm not sure that's a very big pull.

532

'cause I don't think she'd ne, but the

point was it's seeing things and changing

533

the dynamic in a way, , because, , you

and I, we've sat in those rooms, we

534

know, and I can also sometimes see,

'cause sometimes people are quite

535

naive and they think, I won't go.

536

This isn't, it's never gonna happen.

537

That real denial stuff.

538

And I don't challenge it too much

because I, I'm not there to shock anyone.

539

But I can see sometimes the way, , you

can read between the lines, right?

540

And you're like, okay, this.

541

This redundancy might be

the best option right now.

542

If they don't go on redundancy,

they might find themselves on

543

a PIP in five, five weeks time.

544

But , this is what I specialize in and

I've basically, I've just turned it,

545

all the things that Chief execs found

me annoying because I was challenging.

546

I was just like I might

as well lean into it then.

547

June Hogan: Yeah.

548

And I love the way that you described

yourself as someone's best friend at

549

work, but with all your experience,

qualifications, and your ability to, as

550

you say, piece things together, , and

spot things and, , read the room and

551

make those insights, which can be

beneficial , for both sides, as you say.

552

Aime Ayrehart: Oh yeah.

553

June Hogan: And it's not,

it's the partnership approach.

554

And I think, , my, my experience

of trade unions is, not recent,

555

but when I was working with trade

unions, it would often be in

556

conflict, which made things very hard.

557

But when you've got someone who actually

wants to work in partnership, and

558

clearly, as you say, you just want

the best outcome for the individual,

559

that's all you are interested in.

560

, So if someone listening to this is

listening to this thinking, I need Amy.

561

At work, I need to have a best

friend like Amy at work, or they're

562

thinking about their organization and

whether this is something they would

563

want to offer to their employees.

564

How can people find you?

565

How can they get in touch?

566

Where do you hang out?

567

, Aime Ayrehart: I think honestly the

simplest answer is social media, isn't it?

568

LinkedIn?

569

It's , I haven't.

570

Unusually spelled name, , which

is a IME to start with, and then

571

Airhart, which is A-Y-R-E-H-A-R-T.

572

And I'm saying that because obviously

people are listening and they can't

573

see it, but there is only one Amy

Aha spelled like that on LinkedIn.

574

So instead, like you, you just type it in.

575

You'll find me.

576

In fact, if you type it into Google.

577

You'll find me.

578

Because it's an unusual name.

579

, So I, yeah, , find me.

580

And then, , what I usually do both

ends is a, I call it, a magic hour.

581

And it's basically you

pay for an hour of my time

582

but it's like for at the moment it's at 89

quid for, individuals, and then you're not

583

invested a huge amount of money or time.

584

It's like, we'll have a conversation

and then see what happens.

585

And then with trade union clients, um.

586

What I then do is I do it on a

casework basis, so it's a fixed fee.

587

I'm not everybody's cup of tea.

588

But I don't try to be, it's like

if, and by the way, the other

589

trade unions are fabulous, but

they can't offer what I do because

590

they just don't have the resources.

591

They have the skills and the people,

but not, the amount of time I can put

592

into one client is hugely different

to what a typical trade union can,

593

but that's just their costing model.

594

It's not their fault.

595

June Hogan: Yeah.

596

Yeah, absolutely.

597

And it might just be what somebody needs

but didn't know that e that existed.

598

Well, Amy, we've had , a whistle

stop tour of all things kind of

599

redundancy, and clearly , , you don't

just deal with that with individuals.

600

But, um, I'm guessing that it

does come up quite a lot, even if

601

Aime Ayrehart: Yes.

602

June Hogan: as redundancy in another,

something disguised as something else.

603

Aime Ayrehart: Yeah.

604

, June Hogan: So I found loads of

that really useful and , I know

605

that people listening are gonna

have found it useful as well.

606

And it's just great to hear that

perspective that you've got, which is

607

really unique because you are on that

other side with people and you've also.

608

Experienced it , as a HR professional.

609

So thank you so much.

610

And I'll pop links

to, , your social media.

611

We'll pop some links to your book as well,

612

Aime Ayrehart: Oh, thank you.

613

June Hogan: show notes and

website and all of that good

614

stuff so people can get in touch.

615

And, um, yeah.

616

Thanks so much, Amy.

617

I've really enjoyed

our conversation today.

618

Aime Ayrehart: Oh, thank you.

619

It's been an absolute pleasure.

620

June,

621

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

622

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

623

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

624

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

625

people who are managing redundancies.

626

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

627

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

628

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

629

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

630

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

631

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.