Welcome to another episode of ADHD-ish, where we explore the intersection of business ownership and the strengths and struggles that come with ADHD tendencies. 

One of the uncomfortable truths about being self employed, whether you’re a consultant, creative, coach or independent professional is the reality of rejection. 

I’m joined for a deep conversation on the topic by Alice Draper, host of the podcast "My Rejection Story" and the founder of the podcast guesting company, Hustling Writers. 

She’s on a mission to make publicity more accessible by reframing the experience of rejection. 

We'll touch on the nuanced fears of rejection that even successful individuals face, the power of tapping into deep personal motivation, the importance of honest feedback from trusted sources, and accountability. 

Whether you're stepping into a new venture or coping with setbacks, this conversation is filled with wisdom to help you understand and navigate rejection with grace and determination.

🎙️ Episode Highlights:

• Conquering the fear of rejection: Practical strategies for building your "rejection resilience muscle."
• The role of cultural conditioning in risk-taking, especially for women.
• Why knowing your "why" can fuel risk-taking and resilience 
• Real-life anecdotes that illustrate the power of community support in overcoming setbacks.

Connect with Alice Draper:

• Free podcast pitch template and guide: https://hustlingwriters.com/template/ 
• Podcast: https://hustlingwriters.com/podcast/ 
• Website: https://hustlingwriters.com/ 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alice-m-draper/ 
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alicedraper/ 

The two most common reasons business owners struggle are:  They are doing too much and fear of “putting themselves out there.” 

I have two openings for my signature coaching program for ADHD-ish solopreneurs, The Boss Up Breakthrough which turns your hidden gem into a stand-out, sought-after, profitable business based on your unique brilliance.  We transform your positioning, packaging, pricing and promoting and remove everything holding you back, including fear of visibility and rejection.  Schedule a free consultation to see if we’re a fit.

Mentioned during this episode:

• The Confidence Code book 
• Haley Jakobson 
• Geraldine de Ruiter 
• Fyre Festival Scandal 

Not ready to work together, but want to share the love?  Rate and Review ADHD-ish and subscribe/follow on your favorite podcast player! 

H: Every single one of your clients has had to overcome issues with rejection. And we can say it's ubiquitous, but I like to remind people, it's actually your brain. It's not your fault that you struggle with rejection sensitivity, whether you have ADHD or not. It is our brain. So why don't we start with the science behind why rejection is so freaking hard?

G: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am not a scientist, so I am going to pull on stuff that I've learned from other people. But if you bring on a neuroscientist for that would be a fascinating episode. But, like, our brains are hardwired to fear rejection because our survival historically has depended on being accepted. So regardless of whether you have ADHD like I do or you do or you don't, if you were rejected from your community, that signals that you could die. Like and historically, if you were kicked out of your tribe, you might not have access to food. You might not have access to shelter.

You might have to swim to another island and so I think, you know, there's that reptilian part of our brain that hasn't evolved to where society is, like, I guess, to where we are as humans now that still screams like danger, danger. If someone says something horrible, if someone rejects you, that signals danger. And, yeah, so there's that and there's also the fact that we are still extremely social beings like, humans are rely heavily on community. There's lots of studies that show that loneliness is one of the biggest things that cause premature aging or early deaths.

We thrive in communities, and rejection threatens us being able to survive. But if we don't work on it, we also end up kind of it becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy in some ways. We don't really get to put ourselves out there and chase the goals that we want or struck like, you know, whether that's in your profession or in your dating life or in friendships. Fear of rejection held me back for a long time. And I know that it does hold a lot of other people back too.

H: You're absolutely right. And I think, Alice, that it's always sort of puzzling in a way to me that the kind of people both you and I work with, coaches, consultants, speakers, thought leaders, experts in their field who know they have something to share, who believe that it is valuable for others to read it, see it, hear it, experience it. And they know that they have to put themselves out there and be visible, to be seen, to be heard, to be noticed. And all of that comes with the risk of rejection. And I find it quite fascinating that we can have the audacity to step away from the herd and say, actually, I'm not interested in a stable job with benefits.

I'm going to depend upon myself. I'm going to be where the buck starts and stops, and I'm gonna have the audacity to think I can actually make a living with what's in my brain as long as I can get it out to other people. What do you think the number one reason outside of just this ancient fear that we will perish if people don't like us? What are some of the other common reasons why you think people will know they have something to share? And we'll even go so far as to write that book, record that podcast, create the thing, but then just choke and be unable to even put it in front of 1 person? What are some of the things that you see with the people that you work with and even the people you've interviewed?

G: Yeah. It's hard to answer that because it's very hard to pinpoint what makes some people put themselves out there and other people never put themselves out there. I can point to some trends. So the people I work with usually are miles ahead of the average person because the fact that they have this business model where they have, as you said, so beautifully decided to use their brain to make a living. They've taken a lot of risk and with risk comes, I guess, proof that you didn't die, that you didn't get kicked out of the tribe. There's it becomes muscle memory.

So, you know, you do those hard things, you realize, oh, I survived that. And maybe there were some also really awesome byproducts or consequences of those risks that I took. And that's at least been my experience with risk because every risk has been terrifying, but, you know, taking those risks and seeing them work out has been like it becomes a bit of an addiction. Like, okay, what other risks could I take, what other great things could happen? So I think one of it is doing it and realizing that the world didn't end. But something else that I've noticed is that being more marginalized seems to make it, and I don't have data to back this up.

So if anyone wants to go look up, I'm sure there are some studies out there, but I've just noticed it with my clients is that the more marginalized someone is, it seems like the more they doubt themselves and putting themselves out there. So I would notice, like, 2 years ago, I had a black woman client who was really shocked at the places we wanted to pitch her to. And then she got accepted, and she was shocked that she got accepted. And I have noticed kind of, like, for example, some of my white male clients can be a lot more audacious in their goals so I don't know if that's yeah.

I think, like, societal conditioning of, you know, what risks you can take, what risks you've seen other people take. I think that white men have seen a lot of other white men take really big risks and be okay. So just if you look at, like, examples of failure, we can point to examples of white men doing really audacious things that Fyre festival scandal comes to mind. Failing, going to jail, you know, having a Netflix documentary made about how this thing you did, and then getting back up and starting another company and getting funding for that other company.

And I think for more marginalized people, they haven't seen that happen. So it feels like the risk of putting yourself out there is a lot higher because there isn't that path of kind of seeing other people take those risks and it fail and then they pick themselves up and it works out. So those are some of the things that come to mind, but I'm sure there's many other things. It's hard to point to any one thing.

H: You are absolutely right. And while this is not a feminist show per se, and I do have a diverse audience, which includes men, it is undeniable that if you have been culturally conditioned as female or if you are marginalized in any way or simply not part of the majority, whether you're queer, whether you have physical differences, and if you're biracial, bicultural. Even people who move to different countries, they don't look like anyone around them can feel marginalized. So all the intersectionality of this, if you are a person of color, if you're female, if you are a, you know, a gender minority, all of these reasons stack the deck. And for the reasons you say, it feels riskier because you probably don't have as much support or much room to fall back, and you don't see others look like you.

I'm reminding of why they finally created a lot more shades of Barbies because little girls had to choose a Barbie doll that didn't have her skin tone for decades before the company finally realized that was a thing to do and each of us has our own individual risk tolerance too. Some people have a tremendous amount of risk tolerance, other people, it's very small. It can be based on past trauma, it can be based on all kinds of things. But I'm fascinated by the book, The Confidence Code. I talk about it a lot on this podcast and refer to it often because 2, women interviewed successful women in literally every field from sports to politics. Every single one of them talked about imposter issues. Every single one of them talked about the fear of failure, the fear of making mistakes.

And I came to the conclusion, Alice, that women are culturally conditioned all over the world to avoid failure, to avoid making mistakes, and to personally identify their worth with whether they succeed or fail. One of the conclusions of this book was that the typical average white man will apply for a job with confidence when he meets 50 to 60% of the stated criteria. A woman will not even apply unless she meets 100%. So if you think about that alone, clearly, the risks of putting ourselves out there, the risks of being visible, and the risks of rejection are not even across the board. And this isn't even taking neurodiversity and other issues into account. But I know because of the work that you do, you this isn't just philosophical. You have actual actionable strategies for helping people deal with these issues. And it goes beyond the Nike slogan, just do it.

G: If I knew it was as simple as just doing it and it and at some point, it's actually it kind of is. Like, because, you know, you've wrote up such a good point with, and I haven't read The Confidence Code, but the gendered angle. And the gendered angle is partly, you know, the privilege and being able to fall back on things. But I think another big part of it is cult like, is our culture conditioning women to fail? Is our culture conditioning women to get rejected and, generally, it's not. I mean, if we think of the dating context, many, many women in heterosexual relationships have never been rejected because the man is archetype as the pursuer. But when you think of that from the male perspective, it's that he, in order to find a partner, had to get rejected a lot.

Like and he had to build that muscle and realize that he could get rejected and survive and keep going and you wonder how that plays in other areas. And I think career wise as well, you know, men are often encouraged to be go getters, put themselves out there. And for women, it can feel like the costs are much higher. And I'd argue that the cost of not doing it, the opportunity cost is the cost that is much higher. But yeah so when it comes to actionable strategies, the thing that I think of is I think of it as a muscle. And so I often talk about building a rejection resilience muscle. And I'm just thinking now, like, there are studies that kind of show that rejection can spark a desire to prove ourselves. So there is positive stuff that can actually come from doing the thing and getting rejected.

I think there was a professor at Rotterdam University who did a study where he asked his students to submit proposals, and they, I don't know if it was a couple of studies across different universities, and some were accepted and some were rejected right away. But the people who were rejected were the ones who came back with more ambitious proposals. Like, they really kind of took that as a chance to harness their skills and work on it. So, yeah, I know the psychologists have said that rejection can, like, prompt this rebellious part of our brains to prove ourselves. And I think when we think of that historical, context of us being kicked out of the tribe, rejection can really spark a desire to get included in the tribe in a way.

So yeah so I think of it in the sense that, building resilience would mean putting yourself in places where you can get rejected. And just like going to the gym, you might not go and do, like, a huge dead lift with a 100 kilos. If you've never stepped foot in the gym before, you might pick up some dumbbells and do some other exercises that would prepare you for that big dead lift. So in a similar way, rejection can look like, what are some micro rejections I can do on a daily basis that will prove to me that the world doesn't end? I know that I find getting rejected from people I know a lot scarier, a lot worse than getting rejected from strangers, which I think kinda makes sense because that's my community. I don't wanna be rejected from my community, whereas strangers are not really part of my community yet.

So something that helped me a lot was when I was trying to build a career as a freelance writer, I did a 100 rejection challenge within a group of, Facebook group of writers that everyone was doing it. And the thing that really helped me, I think all of it helped me, one had helped me because I completely flipped the switch on focusing on getting accepted. So I stopped ruminating over every rejection. I became a lot more output driven, which is very useful when you're trying to get your work out there and get visible. But also that there was a community of writers doing the same thing, celebrating their rejections, and these were, like, veteran journalists who'd been in the field for decades writing for the New York Times and celebrating their rejection from HuffPost.

So that means that when I get my rejection from HuffPost, it doesn't seem quite so bad because I was, like, a young newbie journalist and there is veteran journalists. And then also that you can share your rejection story in that group and get a lot of moral support. And that, I think, actually challenges that kind of reptilian part of our brain that is so threatened by rejection. Because when you reach out to community for support, it's saying, hey, I'm safe. Like, actually, people are supporting me in spite of this rejection. And, I mean, I recently discovered a Facebook group called, it was a rejection sensitive dysphoria Facebook group for people with ADHD. And it was 60,000 people, and they just share their, like, things they took personally, basically.

Like my neighbor was rude to me, it's really freaking me out. And the whole purpose of the group is really that people are rallying behind them and saying it's okay. You're not a bad person and that's what we need, I think, to become more resilient to rejections is not only doing them, and building that muscle to show we're okay, but also having community and having that support, which shows that we're not gonna get rejected. And actually, I'm not alone, and I can do this with the support of someone else.

So I love that you can even leverage a little bit of competition because I always say that there's 4 drivers that get a person with ADHD to take action. 1 is interest, 2 is challenge, 3 is novelty, and 4 is urgency. So by putting yourself in that group challenge and getting the support and the accountability, you are actually able to leverage all of those drivers because I'm sure that challenge didn't go on indefinitely. It was probably for a set period of time and so you had some parameters. You had some limits, and it made it safe, but also a little bit of a friendly competition. Like, I'm gonna get to my 100 faster than this one over here, which ultimately serves everybody because they're probably thinking the same thing.

G: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like this was a Facebook group, so it was a lot more of a kind of broader community. But I broke it down in the sense that I had actual journalists that I was working with where we would review each other's pictures. And so it's not a rejection goal with no strategy. You know, the rejection goal, there was also someone to, like, kind of take a look at what we were doing, which was us to each other. We had peer review our pitches and share feedback. But, yeah, the accountability piece is huge for getting anything done for me.

But I think on the rejection side, that helped me a lot from not spiraling and not thinking that every rejection was personal, which it had before. And so when I used to sort of I used to sort of mentor writers and authors, that was, I think, the biggest thing that they would often get stuck is that they were doing it alone. And when you're doing it alone, you know, the imagination wonders and everything feels personal. And when you kind of flip to the other side, it's actually not as personal as we thought it was because there are a million reasons why people reject you, and it's not most of the time, it's got nothing to do with you.

H: You know, what I'm curious about, Alice, is that, you know, you're working with personal brands right? You're working with individuals and experts, and they're building a personal brand. And they have the book, or in my case, they have the podcast. And there is always a chance of rejection. And I think there's a part of it that always does feel personal because we're talking about ourselves. We're talking about our stories right? And so there's a little bit of this that's like my brain is a little itchy around because we're telling people it's not personal. If you get rejected, it's not personal but sometimes it is.

You know, I'm thinking of, and if somebody doesn't open your pitch, like, I get dozens of pitches every week to be a guest on the podcast. I invited you, you didn't pitch me. And so I like to be able to choose my guests. And so do people feel rejected when I don't open their pitch, maybe. I don't know. But sometimes, a rejection is personal. Like somebody has said, I would really love to have you as a guest on my podcast but Diann, my god, you swear a lot. And I'm like, yeah, that's why I have an explicit rating. And they're saying, yeah but my audience would just not be into that. So I'm thinking, well, why do you want me then?

You know, like, it's sort of like I'm being rejected because of a facet of my personality, but I was more willing to be rejected by being true to myself. And that's been something that has taken a lot of time. Years ago, I would have been like, who do you want me to be, I'll be that. Like, bend me, shape me, I'm like the Gumby doll. Like, I will be whoever I need to be so that you like me so that you accept me so that I fit in. But I think by the time you're really ready to be a thought leader, you're really ready to be an expert, there kind of needs to be the understanding that sometimes rejection is personal. You're not just a number. You're somebody that they don't like what you have to say or the way you say it. How do we work with that?

G: Yeah. You bring up such an important point because, you know, I brought I have that story of my 100 rejections. And now I run a PR company, so we get rejected all the time, whether it's for, like, the pictures that we're sending about me or clients. And it's like water off a duck's back because I think we're pretty resilient to getting PR pictures. And then I got, you know, I'm thinking of you getting I don't know if that was a real example. You had you getting told you swear too much, but…

H: It is a real example.

G: Yes, it hurts. I got a rejection for one of the like, it was a partnership pitch for my podcast where someone accused me of using fake creating fake familiarity using AI, and that wasn't the case at all. It was a very real pitch, and they concluded with how disgusting, which is, like, I and that's not a rejection that I get very often. I think that's it took me by surprise. Like, you know, there's no responses. That's fine, there's, no thanks. That's fine and then there was this, which was the first.

H: An attack, I think that that goes beyond rejection. That's like an attack on your character. That lands very differently, I think.

G: So it hurts and I think that that's okay. Like, whether, you know, you respect this person or not, it hurts. So I think that the first step, at least this is and I'm not a therapist, so maybe you can you can get better advice on this. But, the first step for me, at least, when I'm kind of navigating how I would approach personal rejections or rejections that feel like an attack is to acknowledge that this really sucks. And then I think, okay what am I gonna do about it? Am I going to hide and shame and not tell anyone, which is my natural instinct. Like, that's all I wanna do because that feels extremely vulnerable to reveal that I got such a nasty rejection. And then I kind of, like I'm like, okay well, that's exactly the thing that would make me not do this anymore, whether it's pitching myself and, you know, this can apply in other things.

You might get rejected by a friend or a partner and the instinct is, like, I'm never gonna put myself out there again. I'm never gonna try and make new friends again. And that's not really gonna be helpful because, of course, you want friends generally. I want to have partners for the podcast. So then it's kind of thinking back to that community aspect again, and it's like, who are the trusted people? I actually wrote a LinkedIn post, but I wouldn't recommend that for everyone. Like, you know, it could have gone badly and no one engaged with my LinkedIn post, and then I would have felt even more rejected. So I would rarely think who are trusted people who I respect that I can share this with.

And that helps a lot, you know, because I, like, have a friend who is very level headed, not emotional at all, very neutral about things. So sharing it with someone like that, he'd put it into perspective. He'd be like, that seems like a very weird thing for someone to say. You know, have you maybe she was having a really bad day. Maybe she has mental health problems like, it's can you imagine yourself sending an email like that to someone? And so then there's, like, a bit of perspective taking, which I can't have in my emotional state.

H: Nobody can.

G: And there's also, like, realizing, okay, I'm not alone. Like, I'm safe, I'm kind of getting comforted by this person who I respect. And so when I think of those people that you would open up to, I think, like, who do I feel very safe with and who do I respect? Because, of course, if you're telling someone who you don't respect and they're just like, oh, they're silly and stuff, but you don't think that highly of them, it's not gonna make you feel that good. So I would, yeah, like, choose the people you respect and feel safe with and open up to them, and they can give you perspective and comfort and don't hide in shame. That's just gonna make it worse.

H: I really appreciate you saying, Alice, that it hurts and that's okay. Because sometimes and resilience is the topic I am most obsessed with and just bouncing back from mistakes. Bouncing back from failures of all kinds, bouncing back from rejections is something it's a skill. Like you say, a muscle. We all need it even if we come from a disadvantage point where we have genuine and severe rejection sensitive dysphoria. Some people need to take medication for this. It's a profound impact on their life. But we don't need to pretend that it's no big deal. We don't need to say, oh, I'm gonna go out and get my 100 rejections.

I have known people in sales organizations who are told by their manager to get out there and get those rejections and consider them like a badge of honor and know that every rejection you get is gonna get you one step closer to a yes. It's like, I understand why they do that and I think to some degree, it can be helpful if you're sort of programming yourself to think, I'm going for the no. I'm going for the no. I'm going for the no. But sooner or later, the feelings get involved. We are after all, this is what separates us from the animals. We have emotions and the more we try to ignore them or deny them or, you know, compartmentalize them as though they don't matter, the more dysfunctional we become.

So I love that you're saying, you know what? It hurts. It fucking hurts. It's always gonna hurt. But you get to decide how much you're gonna let it hurt and for how long. And then what are you gonna do about it? I am famous for writing the flaming retort in an email and just saying everything I wanna say about how cruel and how petty and how foolish and how selfish and asinine. And, you know, I just wanna and I can really go on, and I got a lot of words. But, of course, I don't send it because what I'm doing is I'm acknowledging my experience of rejection in a way that really takes the risk out of making the situation worse. I'm not gonna try to convince the person to give me another shot. I'm not gonna why why did you you know, like, I'm there's there's no point in that.

But I do have feelings, and I do wanna get those feelings out of me. And I find that being able to compose an email and not send it, sometimes it's all I need. But, typically, as you say, I need to run it by someone else because rejection has a very powerful way of making us doubt ourselves, doubt our perceptions, doubt our reactions, and doubt what we think we should do next so it's really valuable. And I'm one of those people who likes people who will speak the uncomfortable truth. I don't cultivate friends who tell me what I wanna hear. As a matter of fact, anybody tries to tell me what they think I wanna hear, I'll tell them to shut up and tell me the truth because it just doesn't work for me.

I know when I'm being, you know, patronized. I know when someone is treating me like a child. I want them to say, and you know what? Yes, they rejected you. You didn't expect it, and that sucks. And I'm sorry you're going through this, how else can I support you? That might be enough. It'd be like, yeah. That did suck, it really did, it was not what I was expecting. And guess what that's just part of being a grown up is sometimes things that you expect don't happen, and sometimes the unexpected does. And just learning how to accept that and tolerate it and work with it, I think, is just part of being a human no matter what business you're in.

G: Yeah, I love that. I mean, everything you said and the idea of, yet also you highlighted a great point, which is to not talk to someone where you feel like you're being patronized. And I think that's really highlights what I was saying when I said someone you respect. Because if you are telling, you know, I don't know your mom and she says everything you do is amazing. It's not that you don't respect your mom, but you know that she's just gonna validate you no matter what. So it's choosing someone who you think would tell the truth even if it's not that comfortable, which can also be like, maybe your pitch wasn't that good, but you still didn't deserve that rejection. That was a horrible rejection, I don't think that rejection was about you. You know, that's valuable. I'm like, okay also can level sets. So yeah so I think that, yeah, I agree with what you said.

H: Do you recall anything that anybody shared with you about their experience of rejection that surprised you or that you hadn't really ever thought about before? Anything that stands out?

G: I'm just thinking the very first interview that I released and also the first interview I recorded with Geraldine DeRuiter, she has a best-selling book that is in multiple, you know, best-selling lists and has sold I don't know what her exact numbers are, but she has tens of thousands of followers, and I assume her numbers are good. And then she had a New York Times review, which we actually spoke about. So what really surprised me about her is that she told me that, one, rejection still terrifies her, and she does a lot of things to avoid rejection. And she said just something as simple as, like, meeting up with someone for coffee is something that often doesn't do because she's too scared of a perceived rejection, them advising her for coffee. And it made me think, you know, she's perceived as so successful online that I wondered, is she afraid that they are not going to like the real her as much as what they need her to be?

And that's an interesting facet of rejection that I think of a lot is, I found it a lot easier to get rejected when I was early in my career when I didn't think that there was anyone had any expectation of who I was and what I could do. But then when you actually have something to lose, it can feel riskier because now you don't know how they're gonna perceive this thing that you're pitching or this favor that you're asking. So that really interests me and that's something that's been a recurring theme with a lot of the guests that I've spoken to is that they said, yeah, as they've kind of made quote unquote, made it or been more noteworthy or people have had expectations that has made the fear of rejection, whether it's people not liking their book or not liking their work or not supporting their next endeavor a lot scarier because now you think, oh, well, they think I'm this great person, and what if I wouldn't live up to that?

H: That's such an interesting perspective because I think most people on face value, Alice, would think, well, the more experienced you are, the less rejections you get. And the more experienced you are, the better you are at handling rejection but your point is so well taken. You have so much more at stake that you might actually be more fragile in that respect. You might actually be more sensitive because you're being compared to a lot more of your body of work. I think people are particularly difficult for someone who is prolific with their writing or musicians, for example.

Every work has to be at least as good and let's be honest most people expect better than the last. And how abnormal would it be for a human being to keep exceeding themselves with everything they create? I don't think I don't think most of us are capable of that. And I would imagine the really prolific people who've written many, many books are probably feeling the weight of that, which would make every rejection feel much heavier and scarier. That totally makes sense.

G: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's this advice of, like, get yourself out there and those content creator world of post all the time like, share content, do it imperfectly. And the thing is when people when you have done it well and people have now, like, read your stuff and follow you or whatever is there's expectation. And I think when we're initially trying to build that brand or that platform, the expectation isn't there, which can make it feel easier.

H: I'm wondering what you think about this, from what you've been saying, it sounds like you would encourage people to start with the smaller rejections and kind of, as you say, like your example of going to the gym. You don't pick up the heaviest barbell, you go for something smaller. Would you ever encourage someone to go for the big item first instead of kind of I'm thinking like baby stepping your way up to the more risky rejection versus just dive in the deep end even though you don't know how to swim. Would you under what conditions might you, if ever, recommend that instead?

G: It's so hard to say because every human is different. And also, like, I'm not an expert on human behavior. But I think that use your self-knowledge and something when I speak about those rejections because you brought up and I just wanna go back to this quickly. You brought up a great point of how, you know, having a sales goal where you're hitting a 100 rejections can feel very obscure and very demotivating to many people. And so one of the things I just wanna clarify with hitting the gym and starting with the small asks is make sure it isn't a 100% integrity with you and your mission and what you wanna be doing. You know, if you are just randomly asking people for free coffees or something, like, there might be some value in seeing you can survive, but it could also just feel really torturous if you have a lot of social anxiety and you might find that it never gets better.

But if you know that there's something you really care about and you're doing all these things to make that happen, whether it's grow a platform or share a mission or whatever it is, you probably will grow that resilience in a sustainable way because you're seeing the results of you get doing the thing you really care about. So to answer your question about whether people should dive in the deep end or not, I kind of think it's kind of like if you actually dived in the deep end of a pool. Some people might drown and some people will figure it out and swim, and they will learn a lot quicker that way than if they were kind of going and paddling in the shallow end.

My judgment would be that if you think that you wouldn't be able to recover from this huge rejection, like, if you look at it and, you know, you might be biased, so this probably isn't a full proof thing, but I can think of some people who'd be very fragile. So for example, I don't think she would mind me sharing this example. My best friend went through a really bad burnout that was it was post her first proper job and she, burnt out just really, really badly. And so her confidence was at an all-time low during the burnout. So if I would never advise someone like her go for this huge audacious goal, that you really care about because that could almost confirm that very low confidence.

She's in a really good place now and has, like, an amazing things. So in the place she's in now where, you know, she's thriving and everything is going so well and, like, just on top of the world, I'd be like, yeah, shoot like, shoot really high. I know you struggle with rejection, but do it because you will prove to yourself that you're gonna be okay at the end of it. And she would be okay because she's in a good so I think if perhaps are not your self esteem and confidence is not in a great place, it could do more harm than good, but it's very much on a case by case basis.

H: I really appreciate your approach, which is someone who gets a lot of pitches and someone who pitches herself as well. I appreciate that you are encouraging people to develop their resiliency, to develop their tolerance to rejection in a strategic way that involves a lot of self awareness. I think it's the combination of those three things that makes it successful and also a little bit less scary. You're not just telling people, you know, get out there and be visible. However you do it, just do it, and you'll desensitize yourself. No, that may be true for some people, it will be totally traumatizing to others.

You're saying, yes, this is something that you can develop more skill at and make it easier on yourself, but you have to know why you're doing it. And you have to be able to do it in a way that really honors who you know yourself to be and that's both strategic and self respecting. That's what makes it work otherwise, it's just another, you know, bit of advice that doesn't really land with people and might actually do harm. I really appreciate the approach that you use because there is a lot of individualization with it. Not everybody can do it the same way and guess what, not everybody needs to.

G: Haley Jakobson, one of the podcast guests that we had on, she was talking about getting rejected from initially, she studied to in theater school, and she was talking about, how she gave up that as a profession, a potential profession because she didn't think she could handle the rejections. Because, obviously, if you pursue your career in acting, you're gonna be met with an obstable.

H: Constant rejection.

G: Yeah then she was talking about her process of getting a book manuscript published. And so she's a New York Times editor's choice for, like, the, I think, the teen awards or something. So, she said that she realized in that process that it wasn't the rejections that made her give up acting, it was that she didn't care about it enough. And when she realized that she cared enough about writing and getting her work published, she could like, it was tough, it sucked. And, you know, she had to do a lot of work, a lot of work on herself to get through the rejections. But realizing that she cared so much about getting this published, and so she was willing to do that work.