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"The Disaffiliation Dilemma in One Local United Methodist Church" Part 1. Discernment and Divorce with Rev. Tracey Leslie and Lay Person Tonya Hess
Episode 9314th February 2024 • Be Encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble • Bishop Julius C. Trimble
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Bishop Julius C. Trimble is the Resident Bishop of the Indiana Area of the United Methodist Church.

Bishop Trimble has the personal mission to encourage all people with the love of Jesus Christ to rise to their highest potential. It is his commitment to his personal mission that led Bishop Trimble to create the “To Be Encouraged” Podcast along with co-host Rev.Dr. Brad Miller.

Bishop Trimble says, “I am compelled by Jesus to share with you an encouraging word or two about Jesus, theology, the Bible, the pandemic, the environment, racism, voting rights, human sexuality, and the state of the United Methodist Church.”

To Be Encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble is to be published weekly and is available at www.tobeencouraged.com and all the podcast directories.

https://www.inumc.org/bishop/office-of-the-bishop/

This is Episode 093 "Disaffiliation Dilemma Part 1 Discernment and Divorce"

In this episode, Bishop Trimble address the pervasive confusion that has been afflicting United Methodist congregations, surrounding the contentious issue of disaffiliation. We take a closer look at paragraph 2553, the catalyst for many church votes, some marked by a significant lack of clarity, leaving faith communities on the precipice of separation.

Our focus will be on the real and pressing concerns that arise when congregations consider disaffiliation: the tangible effects on church life, ministry, and their ability to influence the community. We confront the emotional and logistical complications that emerge, especially in churches divided by narrowly split votes.

Joining us in this critical conversation are Rev. Tracey Leslie and dedicated layperson Tanya Hess, who bring both expertise and experience to the table. Rev. Leslie will shed light on her role in guiding congregations through these turbulent times, particularly in welcoming and understanding those impacted by church divisions. Tanya Hess presents a heartfelt account of her personal journey with the North Madison United Methodist Church, revealing the hardships and consequences of their disaffiliation debate.

As we explore the difficult terrain of church splits, financial burdens, and the exodus of leadership, our goal is to uncover pathways towards healing and rebuilding. This episode marks the beginning of our exploration into recovery, with the promise of delving deeper in Part 2 (Episode 094 “The Disaffiliation Dilemma: Recover and Hope”.)

We invite you to listen with an open heart as we offer support and guidance to those navigating these troubled waters. Together, we'll seek to reaffirm our commitment to the fundamental mission of the church: to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. Please join us for this important conversation here on "To Be Encouraged."

Rev. Tracey Leslie <tracey.leslie@inumc.org>;

Tanya Hess <tarhess@msn.com>

Transcripts

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The disaffiliation dilemma in

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a Local United Methodist Church.

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Part 1, discernment and divorce.

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Here on episode 93 of the

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To Be Encouraged podcast with bishop

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Julius c Trumbull.

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You are welcome to be encouraged

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with Bishop Julius c Trimble.

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Bishop Trimble is on a mission to encourage you

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with the love of Jesus Christ so you can

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rise to your highest potential.

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On to be encouraged, Bishop Treble speaks to a

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discouraged world with a good word

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on the pandemic, racism, the environment,

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human sexuality, and the state of the church with

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a focus on centering your life on

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the love of Jesus Christ. Has there ever

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been a more needed time for an encouraging

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word to our world? This is

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your time to rise to your greatest potential

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and to be encouraged with Bishop Julius

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c Trimble. Hello, good people, and

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we welcome you to the to be encouraged

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podcast with Bishop Julius C.

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This is the podcast where we look to offer an encouraging

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word to an often discouraged

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world. I'm your cohost, reverend doctor Brad

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Miller. And here in episode 93, we have

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part 1 of a 2 part series dealing with one of the more

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discouraging aspects of the current state of the United Methodist

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Church, the disaffiliation dilemma,

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particularly as it impacts a local

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United Methodist church. In today's episode,

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we're gonna be talking to a United Methodist staff

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person who, among other things in her portfolio, deals

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with discernment and disaffiliation issues in

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local churches along with the healing and wholeness aspects as

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well, as well as devoted local United

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Methodist layperson who's a part of that church. We're gonna

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get granular today as we discover as we discuss

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what happens in the disaffiliation discussion

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through the discernment process, through the voting process about whether

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to disaffiliate or not. So today's

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topic is gonna be part 1, discernment and divorce,

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and this is episode 93. And we'll follow it up on

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episode 2, episode number part 2 of this episode, which is

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episode 94. We'll talk about recovery and hope for

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the future of a local United Methodist Church.

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We are incredibly privileged to have a couple people been

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involved with the dynamic that's happening in many of our

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United Methodist churches right now. The very painful

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process of discerning whether you're going to have a vote to do

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disaffiliate or not, the inner workings of the church

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administratively and interpersonally, friendships,

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family relationships, mission events, community

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events, all these things which are impacted in the mission and ministry of a local

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church, which is going through the the process

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of deciding whether to disaffiliate from the United Methodist Church or not.

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So we have with us as our guest, today with myself and

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Bishop Trumbull, Tracy Leslie, who's the C

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director of innovation, engagement and development

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of the Indiana Conference of the United Methodist Church. And

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she was intimately involved with one of the local United

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Methodist Church in the churches in the Indiana conference,

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the North Madison United Methodist Church in Madison, Indiana.

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And we're very pleased to have one of the very devoted and dedicated

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laypersons from the North Madison United Methodist

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Church, Tanya Hess. In this episode

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of To Be Encouraged, it is being done in,

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narrative or narration style. So I just wanted to say a word about what

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you'll be hearing here, today. I, inter I, Brad

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Miller, interviewed C, and later on

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was able to, offer his insights into the answers

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that Tracy and Tanya gave to us. So

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you'll hear, myself setting up the question, the

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setting up the the question, and then either Tanya or C,

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both of them commenting on the question at

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hand, and then Bishop, Bishop Trimble commenting

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on the statements that that they make. I think you'll get the hang of it,

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and it's a good it's a good thing. I hope that you'll listen carefully to

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this episode and to the follow-up episode, episode 94,

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where we talk about the next steps. It may very well

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be applicable to your church if you're a local church pastor or a

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local church layperson who's having these discussions as well. I

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think you're gonna find this incredibly helpful. And, again, a word of thanks for people

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who are sharing out of some painful experiences meant to

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be helpful to you and indeed encouraging

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to local churches, which are choosing to have the hard

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conversations around the, basically, divorce

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conversation regarding disaffiliation in their

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church. So, again, a big thanks to Tracy Leslie

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and to Tanya Hess. Let's join the conversation that

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I had with them and the comments from from Bishop

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Julius Trimble here on the to be encouraged podcast with Bishop Julius

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c Trimble.

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Let's begin by having a conversation with reverend

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Tracy Leslie, the associate director of innovation engagement

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development, Indiana Conference United Methodist Church, to understand a

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little more clearly what her role is and

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her connection between the conference staff and

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leadership in terms of serving and resourcing

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a church and the pastor and the lay persons

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of a church that's having the conversation

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around disaffiliation and how her

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role can serve people going through this

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very tough Trimble. Significant amount of

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the work that I do, it's around what are called lost congregations,

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And those are congregations that take training

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to, to learn how to better welcome

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folks who have experienced that pain and and that

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hurt from a congregation that disaffiliated

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or with even just divisive around this issue.

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And so I do train with congregations to help them

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the dynamics of that and how to welcome well.

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Well, I think there's nothing more critical than helping

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congregations understand how to welcome. My wife and I, we have an

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opportunity to visit congregations. And often, we

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we rate ourselves higher than we should in terms of our capacity

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to welcome strangers, people who are not already part of what I call

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the the collective community that we call church.

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So Tracy's leadership in this role, particularly at this

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particular junction, juncture in history,

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is is critical for the Indiana Conference. And, hopefully, we'll

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be setting some examples that best practices that can be

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used by other conferences as well. We don't just wake up

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knowing, I think, how, Brad, how to welcome others. I think that's

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something that comes with with some collective training and

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learning together and practicing. So this is something we

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think is a good investment for us at this particular time, not just

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because of disaffiliation, just be but because there are so many people

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in Indiana that don't have a place to call their spiritual

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home, their church.

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In a local United Methodist Church, any conversation around

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disaffiliation begins with some

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conversations in the hallways, in the parking lots, and other places

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about dissatisfaction. Such as the

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case at the North Madison United Methodist Church in Madison,

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Indiana, And dedicated layperson Tanya

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Hess begins to unpack for us and sort out in our

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conversation some of the background and some of the

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history behind the conversation which led to

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a eventual vote on disaffiliation at the North

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Madison United Methodist Church. Let's hear Tanya's story.

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Sure. It was probably back in September of

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2022. Our administration at the

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church had decided to enter into that period of discernment.

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And there were disaffiliation talks. There were many

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committee meetings, town hall meetings,

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surveys, question, answer sessions. And as the

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months progressed, I just kept getting very

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discouraged. And, throughout these years, even though I haven't

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lived back home for many years, I kept in touch with a lot of my

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former youth group members or adults that were mentors at the church

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or the nearby United Methodist churches. And kind of in a

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large, group text, I had a friend reply

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and said that, you know, you need to talk to somebody. And it was her

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United Methodist Church pastor and it was Pastor C who was

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in Lafayette at the time with the Trinity. And so I

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reached out to Tracy because, we're a connectional church. I knew she

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would help me and she answered every

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text, every phone call, email and with,

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a lot of factual information and encouragement.

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And, with our disaffiliation, I thought

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there was a lot of confusion, excuse me, with our disaffiliation talks, I

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felt there was a lot of confusion, not a lot of forthright

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information coming to our congregation. And,

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I just wanted to, you know, speak up and reach out and have

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my questions answered, and Tracy was very,

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very helpful with that. So, we had a, leading up to

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in April. It was, April 17th was our disaffiliation

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votes or vote to if you were gonna stay United Methodist or if we were

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gonna disaffiliate from the the denomination.

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And it turned out to be a very, very close vote and as a

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result, we we had lost between a half or 2

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thirds of our members. And, of course, Tracy was

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there after that and, with her new role and

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has has helped with our rebuilding process. You

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said There's a lot of Tanias out there. And, she said

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2 things that really touched my heart, and and I I

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feel for Tanya because I know she's not alone. She said, one, she's

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been discouraged. This affiliation and even the

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process of, quote, unquote, Brad, discernment

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can be this this discouraging because you're discerning

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not about what god's will is for us to grow the church

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or a God's will for us to our next mission focus, but

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you're actually asking people who are part of the body of Christ in

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a congregation to discern whether or not we want to divorce

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the United Methodist denomination. So that in and of itself,

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I know it's gotta be. It was discouraging for me, and I was not living

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it out as a member of a local congregation or a pastor of a

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local congregation, but as a bishop. The other thing she said, which

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I I also found to be encouraging, and that was she

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said and she said it matter of factly as as I C it and

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you say it. She said, we are a connectional church. She

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didn't use it as a disparaging word or a curse word. She

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said, we are a connectional church. So I reached out to

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get help. There's so many people who love Jesus and are United Methodist,

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but don't understand that and maybe don't have a person to

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call. That's the reason we've been get embarked on this

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commitment and this journey of reaching out to person who really wanna

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focus on the mission of being United Methodist and making disciples.

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We're not trying to bad mouth people that have made a decision to leave,

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but we think we need to really help people experience a

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period, a long period, maybe, of healing

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so that we can those of us who wanna be United Methodists and continue to

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focus on the cross and flame can really

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experience help from the connectional church. And

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that's the reason that Tracy's in her role, but it's not her job

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alone. It's all of our all of our responsibility to help

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people understand that we have a commitment to still

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make disciples of Jesus Christ, transform the world, and do it

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with healthy congregations. And some of our congregations have been

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literally decimated because of the discernment and disaffiliation

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process. In a local United

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Methodist Church, conversations around dissatisfaction

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eventually lead to conversations in meetings and

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eventually official process of discernment

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about whether a vote is to be taken regarding disaffiliation

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or not. In this part of our conversation, Tanya

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has goes a little deeper about what eventually led to

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a vote on disaffiliation taking place at

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Madison North United Methodist Church and some of the pain and some of

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the drama and some of the circumstances surrounding that. It's

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worth a listen to understand a little bit about the

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details of this process and some of the painful

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points and some of the important points which have to be

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addressed for a church that's considering disaffiliation.

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It It was decided to, to have the

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vote. And I think probably

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both sides, because now our church has been,

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I think what was so painful is those months you were watching

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your church, you know, family basically split

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and, and you didn't know how it was going to go down. So I'm going

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to say our church was on both sides. There were, we had people on both

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sides of the issue. And so you're, you're watching our, we're

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supposed to be in unity with each other and you're watching

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your church divide, so that was what was so painful. And I think

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both sides were shocked as, you know, you could you could

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hear a a pin drop really in the sanctuaries where we held the

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vote. And when it was decided that our church would

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remain United Methodist, where the one side who who wanted

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us to leave were for sure that they were going to, you

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know, get the church and the church property. And then those of

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us who wanted to remain United Methodist with their our

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church, our church had just celebrated that year, its

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175th birthday as Commissioned Methodist

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Church. So this church has a lot of history and heritage.

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And so to, you know, to sit in the pews with those who

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decided to, you know, kind of be dismissive of that was very

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painful. And so when it came down to the votes, I think

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everyone was just shocked in in in the room.

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Wow. There there there's nothing, there's no

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getting around that. Just to hear that as people

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describe their experience is palpable. It's it's

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it's, you know, people were experienced a visceral experience of,

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you know, you can hear a pin drop because where Jesus

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prays in John 17 that we all might be 1, he prays

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not just for the disciples, not just for those who who

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were 1st century Christians, but he prays for the church

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today. So it's almost counterintuitive. We're not

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our DNA is one of my colleague Bishop says, we weren't built to

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be, to be divided. We were built

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to really come around for congregations to be united.

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So it the discernment process brought drama. The

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disaffiliation brought drama. And when congregations actually came

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to the point of voting, there there was there was drama. It was

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it's a no win situation, no matter which way the vote goes,

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particularly when it's not a significant majority. Either

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as a significant majority of people who've discerned to

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stay or discerned that they want to leave. And here in the story of

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a 100 and 75th anniversary, I've preached at many of

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the churches that have experienced a 175

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years of ministry since I've been here for 7 plus years

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as the president bishop of Indiana. I know what it is to celebrate

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with churches that have celebrated a 150 years, a 175

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years. And that's how many years they've been connected

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to the Methodist movement. So for churches to discern,

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to stay, or discern to leave and then lose

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members as a result of that is very, very painful.

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Again, which is the reason that we really need to come around each come

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alongside each other, for a long season of prayer

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and and and create places where we can welcome folks

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who may wanna come back. I think there are people who may wanna come back

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to the United Methodist congregations that maybe they've decided to

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leave. When the

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United Methodist Church is going through the disaffiliation

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dilemma discussion, something that often happens

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is a sense of confusion

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and lack of clarity about process, about

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information. In this part of the conversation that we

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were able to have, with Tanya and with Leslie,

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we explore a little bit about this matter, about

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how important it is to be very clear about the discipline, about to be very

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clear about process, and be very clear about everybody to understand

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because confusion becomes a real

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consistent problem. So Tanya,

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Leslie speak to this, and Bishop Trimble responds to

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the matter of confusion during the disaffiliation

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dilemma conversation. Yes. So we were,

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deciding to the administration had decide to

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discern over the paragraph 2553 and

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we had a lot of talks of what that meant

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and, we had members, you know, answer

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surveys, but, you know, sometimes the questions may have not

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been the right questions for our congregation. And

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they, proceeded with the discernment and the disaffiliation

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talks based on, so far, like 80% of the congregation

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said that they wanted to, you know, have the vote. That

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did not mean that 80% of the congregation wanted to

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leave the denomination. It's just that they wanted to have the vote

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so that they would have that say on how they they wanna proceed

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with the church. And there were a lot of talks of

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what what we could be as a church if we weren't United

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Methodist and, I just felt some members

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were just, confused and with what was being presented to

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them. One of the consistent themes during this

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process, and I've talked with other bishops who experienced one of the

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consistent themes has been confusion, confusion about

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what United Methodist believe or don't believe, confusion about

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what happens if you vote to this affiliate or not, even

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confusion about what paragraph 2553 really said

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or really meant. So some congregations were making a

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determination to vote on something that they really weren't clearly

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that wasn't clearly understood, which I think it, to

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me, is cause not to have a vote, but maybe to remain United

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Methodist and wait for general conference or wait for a period of

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time of discernment where you do have a clear understanding of what

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it means. It's also a clarion call for us to

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double down on our commitment to teach what United Methodist actually

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believe. What is Wesleyan theology? What does it mean to

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live in a church that that believes in a heavy dosage of

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grace, understanding grace and practical theology

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and social witness and a commitment to prayer,

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a commitment to preaching from the scriptures that also

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applies to our everyday lives. So I think

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there's a great common theme that the church has

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experienced, and that has been a certain level of confusion about

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what this really meant to vote, to disaffiliate.

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Some some congregations really focus on owning their

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own property, when in fact, we all all

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churches really own their own property and trust. So it's not a

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that's not really something to me that reaches the level of one would

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want to necessarily disaffiliate for.

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So this is something that, you know, we're gonna be living with for for quite

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a while, and I think some of the dis some of the disinformation

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has almost been codified or concretized in the

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minds of people in such a way that it that time may

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not necessarily heal all

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wounds. One of the dilemmas of the disaffiliation

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dilemma conversation is

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trying to get your head around the impact of

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the results of a vote for disaffiliation,

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whether it be to remain a United Methodist Church or to disaffiliate,

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it has tremendous impact on the life and

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ministry and influence of the church and the community.

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In this part of the conversation, reverend Tracy Leslie speaks to

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the impact that it has and to what can begin the

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the process of sorting things out and what can be done next.

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And Bishop Trimble then responds to this, and we began to shift

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the conversation a little bit towards understanding the

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impact of a disaffiliation vote and then

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what's next. Yeah. These are the churches

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that I, at least in my role, are most concerned about.

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Because, you know, there are churches where the vote was not even

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close. And and so once the people that wanted to

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disaffiliate, you know, a lot of times they just left and and

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things kind of con went back to normal. Right?

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I mean, not that there wasn't pain in that, but, you know, but

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here in in churches like North Madison and other places that

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I'm aware of where the votes were really close,

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yeah, oftentimes, lot of people

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are lost, even if the vote doesn't pass, because as we've

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said, you need to hit not, not 51%, but

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66%. And, and so that's

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that's very difficult. Yeah. That's

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an understatement to say it's very difficult, and and it has been very

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difficult. And as a bishop, it pains me to know

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that congregations now have been wounded in such a way that

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carrying on their ministry has been handicapped. You know, how do you

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pay for a full time clergy person if you have a full

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time clergy person? And, you know, 2 thirds or

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40% or 50% of your giving is no longer

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committed to supporting the church with their prayers, their presence,

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their tithes, and their witness. And so we are really

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discerning how we can best come alongside as an annual

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conference and also best reach work. Our superintendents

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are really paying attention to those congregations,

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not not adding undue expectations upon

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that have lost some of their leader key leadership as well

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as their key financial support. We pray that we we serve a

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mighty good God and a gracious God who can do anything

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but fail. So we are expecting the congregations

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will rebound to a certain degree and

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also continue to extend their witness in such a way

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that people that don't have a church may find a welcome place in many of

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our congregations across the state of Indiana.

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We're going to conclude

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this first part of our conversation around

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the disaffiliation dilemma in 1

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local United Methodist Church, North Madison, UMC in Madison,

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Indiana. I hope you benefited

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from the conversation that we had around this conversation

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in part 1, particularly about discernment and

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divorce. I think the, the metaphor is appropriate.

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We talk about this decision whether to separate from the

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United Methodist Church or to remain a part of the United Methodist

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Church. It's a painful decision. I know that you heard

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that in the conversation that Tanya Tanya has

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had to the devoted layperson from Madison North. We

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thank her so much for being a part of our conversation as well as

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reverend Tracy Leslie. And I think you also heard how

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bishop Trimble really speaks poignantly to the situation

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at hand in this particular United Methodist Church, which

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certainly speaks to the to the, drama and

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the trauma that takes place. It has taken place and continues to

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take place in many United Methodist churches.

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You gotta go through the divorce in this process,

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unfortunately, in order to deal with the ramifications of

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ministry moving forward. I hope that you'll tune in for our

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part 2 of this series, our spec part 2, which is episode

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94. We're gonna talk about recovery and hope

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moving forward. If you allow me an analogy, divorce

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recovery and moving forward. And we're gonna talk particularly

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about one important ministry

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that Madison North United Methodist Church had in

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their local community, which was impacted dramatically by this

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decision about the disaffiliation dilemma. I think you're

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gonna find it very applicable to situations and missions and

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ministries and people in your local United

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Methodist Church. So if you're a local United Methodist Church

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pastor or devoted layperson or someone who cares about doing

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mission and making an impact in the world, then, please

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share this this episode of To Be

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Encouraged, which we kinda understand the problem and try

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to sort out the actual granular details as it

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were of the conversation around disaffiliation

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and the dilemma it opposes. But our next episode, we're gonna talk about next

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steps, about recovery and hope moving

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forward. Because here at the to be encouraged podcast, we're all

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about understanding and dealing with the real

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life issues that face the United Methodist Church.

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Sometimes they're really delightful and wonderful, and sometimes,

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they're really, really tough, like this discussion around

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around discernment issues and disaffiliation. This

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is as good a time as any to to be reminded that the mission

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of The United Methodist Church is to make disciples of

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Jesus Christ for the transformation of the

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world, and the purpose of the To Be Encouraged podcast

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with Bishop Julius c Trimble is to offer

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an encouraging word to an often discouraged

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world. We hope you join us next time here on To

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Be Encouraged. Until then, I am reverend doctor

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Brad Miller for Bishop Julius c Trimble,

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encouraging you to always do all the good

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that you can.

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Consider yourself encouraged

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and appreciated for listening to be

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encouraged with Bishop Julius c Trimble.

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Now please share the blessing and encourage others in your

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life to listen, to be encouraged. You can

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do just that by pointing your people to the website

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to be encouraged .com.

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That's tobeencougrad C,

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or connect through Apple Podcast, where you can

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follow, rate, and review to be encouraged

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with Bishop Julius c Trimble. When you do that, you're doing

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your part to bring a good word to a

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discouraged world. Remember, to listen next week, to

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be encouraged with Bishop Julius C. Trimble, and never forget,

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God loves you, and there's nothing you can do about

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it.

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