Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6 Episode 48 of People Soup. It’s Ross McIntosh here.

Peace Soupers… welcome back to part two of my conversation with Miranda Birch.

In part one, we explored the power of really being heard — the kind of listening that creates space, sparks insight, and builds confidence.

In this episode, we go deeper.

We get into how conversations can unlock clarity — for leaders trying to make sense of their role, their message, and what really matters.

And what really struck me here is how aligned Miranda’s work is with mine.

She helps people find clarity through conversation.

I help leaders build psychological flexibility — moving forward with purpose, even when the mind gets noisy.

And at the heart of both?

Pausing… reflecting… and reconnecting with what matters.

You’ll hear:

1. How leaders can rediscover what drives them
2. Why clarity beats polish in communication

And how real, human conversation cuts through overwhelm.

For those of you who are new to People Soup - welcome - it's great to have you here - I aim to provide you with ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular P Soupers - thanks for tuning in - we love it that you're part of our community.

• Connect with Miranda on LinkedIn
• The Richest Conversations – Helping your organisation to make more impact, through the voices of its founders, teams and clients

Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast

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Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE

People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life

And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn

He's now also on Bluesky

Miranda part 2

Miranda: I think some of it is around clarity in their own head. So they may on the surface, come. Because they feel their communications aren't landing. But actually I always take a step back and and say, are you clear about what you want to say and how you want to say it? Are you clear who your audience is? So if you are in a bigger organization, you might have multiple teams below you and they're all doing different things, and maybe you have to think about the emphasis you give, what you are sharing, because one version might work really well for some of your colleagues, but you need to find a different angle.

P Super's, welcome back to part two of my conversation with Miranda Birch.

In part one, we explored the power of really being heard. The kind of listening that creates space, sparks insight, and builds confidence. In this episode, we go deeper. We get into how conversations can unlock clarity for leaders trying to make sense of their role, their message, and what really matters.

And what really struck me here is how aligned Miranda's work is with mine. She helps people find clarity through conversation. I help leaders build psychological flexibility moving forward with purpose, even when the mind gets noisy and at the heart of both pausing, reflecting, and reconnecting with what matters.

You'll also hear how leaders can rediscover what drives them. Why clarity beats polish in communication and how real human conversation cuts through overwhelm. So get a brew on, settle in and enjoy part two of my conversation with Miranda Birch.

Ross: So Miranda, I want you to tell us a bit more about the richest conversations. How, how it came about. Let's start with the origin story.

And so over that time, I niche down into the fact that what I love doing is having conversations with people in the sense of allowing them to open up and share their insights about their world, their origin story, because of the learning around it. But then. during COVID, due to the fact that a lot of my work had been face to face, and of course that disintegrated, I taught myself how to video edit, and I just started doing bits of voluntary work with people that I knew were having a bit of a tough time during COVID.

You have to put them at ease very, very quickly. You have to get them to open up. About the bits of their story that you know will help your audience and intrigue them and excite them. And you have to do that often in seven or eight minutes, 'cause that's all you've got. Between the first record and the second record, I realized that I was doing things subconsciously that really helped.

All of that. But I realized because I was so used to putting people at ease and trying to get them to relax even though they were in an alien environment and doing it fast, what emerged was what I call really rich conversations. In the space of 15 minutes, you know, it seems a short amount of time, but as a radio or television producer, you'll know that 20 seconds, you can say a lot in 20 seconds actually.

So 15 minutes is a lifetime. So I use that to create, I suppose, a, a business that helps people have those conversations for themselves as leaders to their staff or to their clients. You know, telepathy doesn't cut it.

Ross: Hmm

Miranda: As leaders and colleagues, we have to say what we're feeling. We have to explain where we want to take an organization.

Ross: Hmm. And you talk about working with, business founders or leaders. How, how does that conversation unlock this deeper, deeper meaning and insight? How does that happen?

Miranda: So sometimes it happens with their origin story. So if you ask people to talk about what first drew them into their sector or their profession, and in my experience, if they have an origin story, and we'll come to the people that don't necessarily, often that starts way before professional qualifications.

It actually starts in their childhood. So if you are talking to somebody that uses data analytics or something, and you talk about what they love doing as a child and they talk about computer programs or games, I remember talking to somebody who actually was coding at the age of 11, and then suddenly they think, okay, so what's attracted me?

retracing what fired them up to get into their profession in the first place can often indicate to them where their strengths are now, what they love most about their job, and therefore what they should be focusing on and therefore what they should be delegating or ditching.

So whether they're founders or leaders in bigger organizations that sort of retracing their journey can be really helpful to, to them as they prioritize certain things or they try and move their work in a particular direction, or they take their next step in their career. It's fascinating.

Is, is that, am I on the right track there?

And what he loved about it was the conversations he came across, the serendipity, the fact that he never actually knew which train he was gonna get. He never knew which direction he was gonna go in. and just all those relationships he, he accumulated as he traveled all over the world. And then when he came to set up his restaurants and what we.

Uncovered in his story was the fact that as a boss, he was very open, as he said, to throw everything up in the air, see where it landed, and give his teams the freedom to pick up the pieces or, you know, just create their, the restaurant, the backdrops of it or whatever, as, as they wanted. So give them real freedom because he'd experienced that real freedom and that variety when he went to different countries and he wanted that freedom for his, his teams.

to check in with him? So just telling that story sometimes of how you've got to where you are can really help your teams understand what makes you tick and the context in which they're working and that yes, he is sincere when he's giving you all that freedom and you really can decorate.

The tables or the backdrop in the way you want, whatever it is. I'm slightly, building on this example, but yes, explaining why you want to do things can really help your teams. I know another person who she said, I'm seen as a hard task master, but when she explained the story of why she wanted every detail to be right for her clients, because if it.

Someone who was very good at organizational detail, but it really helped her team understand, okay, she's not doing this to be difficult. 'cause often that's how it's perceived, isn't it? Rigor, and you can't deviate. It was because she had huge integrity and wanted the best for her clients. So yes, explaining what drives you, what's important to you, uh, can help you as a leader, but it also helps your team if you are able to articulate that concisely, which is where I guess broadcasting comes in again.

'cause often you don't have many, many minutes to spare when you're getting your message across.

Miranda: I think it's really tough for them as well, isn't it? I mean, it's the [00:13:00] classic. They are usually, and I think it's increasingly becoming the case of dealing with the fires, putting out the fires. Dealing with the urgent, not the important. So it, it's understandable that they just assume people understand what's going on in their head,

Ross: Yes, absolutely.

Miranda: telepathy doesn't cut it, unfortunately, but I totally understand why that happens.

I'm, you know, I, I could speak as a parent as well, I'm sure I don't always articulate consistently and clearly, um,

Ross: Hmm.

Miranda: whether it's at work or at home. So it, it is tough for leaders, but I think it is hugely valuable. And if you, if you talk about outcomes, it's save so much time and so much grief with, as you say, people speculating in a vacuum, people will fill a vacuum.

But that only comes with clarity about what's going on.

Ross: Oh, absolutely agree. Sometimes when I'm doing skills training based around act, sometimes people will say, oh gosh, yeah, I'm gonna leave this organization. I mean, it's not, not mega frequent that I want potential clients to be alarmed, but I think if that does happen, it's, it's a great outcome for the individual and the business.

Miranda: Yeah.

Ross: Because that person was in the wrong, wrong place. Now, you talked about people who didn't have such a strong sense of an origin story. How, how can you unlock things there?

About what you do every day, the skills you use, the people you work with, the context you're working in, you know, is it the sector? Is it the values of your own organization? Is it the fact that you are building something bigger than yourself? It's focusing in, all right, if it's skills. So for me, was it around writing?

Was it around presenting? No. Was it around? Conversations, yes. But what sort of conversations? Well, people who perhaps were timid or under confident. So you just get really granular about what makes your soul sing. Now, people, skills sector, and that when you start thinking, all right, well if there's a particular person, what did they do that made me feel really rewarded?

If you do that, even if it's just focusing on one skill for 15 or 30 minutes, it's amazing if you keep drilling down. So why, you know, it's like the five why's of continuous improvement or is it the five why's or six sigma? I can't remember. then you can you, things bubble up memories. Things that will take you by surprise and then you go, ah, that's what I love.

So it's not an origin story, but it is a story around something that you've done.

Miranda: Do you know? I don't, but I think that's part of my personality and I didn't realize. Not everyone's like me because I remember I, I did um, a group program and one of the people on the program was a coach.

And, uh, I always try and get feedback because I find it really useful. Especially, especially if it's, it's difficult feedback 'cause that will gimme learning.

But she said, Miranda, you are really fearless. You just go in really deep. And I went fearless. and I hadn't thought that, but I think it's because I do go in thinking it's a privilege. I don't take anything for granted. I also think that one of the earliest projects I did in my BBC career working in local radio made me quite fearless.

and actually it was a very serious project and I feel very privileged to have done it. But it was combining, joining forces with the local health authority in the late eighties during the AIDS and HIV, I'd say epidemic. What I mean by that is it was early days at that time where not much known was around about HIV and aids and there was a lot of misconceptions about how HIV was transmitted and a lot of blame in, in Brighton with a large gay community, and I'm using the terminology of the time, they were very concerned about attitudes towards people who were contracting.

Directly affected by HIV and aids. Others, not at all. Or at least they felt they weren't. But that was one of the purposes of the campaign to help create an atmosphere where there was greater understanding and greater support for families that were going through this. Things have changed hugely since then, but at the time it was very, very scary.

And we created 120 listener groups. From the Women's Institute to, student unions to gingerbread for single parents. There were just a huge range of groups who had to fill in lots of surveys. And what was really, again humbling was people saying, I feel very differently hearing first person testimonies from people who are directly affected by this.

And I think probably that shaped, I think I was fairly fearless anyway,

Ross: Hmm

It's, it's remarkable.

Miranda: And I'm sure the leaders you work with appreciate that you are coming from that place that you, it's, it is well intentioned, not, you know, you want the best. It's genuinely wanting the best. So I think if that's. And that probably emerges as part of your groundwork, but then that creates the context where it's a given that actually this is tough.

And I often find people are worried about being themselves and where do they draw the line? What's the corporate messaging and what's the tone? And am I dressed properly? And, and so in that sense, I may be, quote, marks a rebel or slightly disruptive in saying, it's okay, it really is okay to be yourself.

Um.

Miranda: Y. Yes, I would agree with you. I think. Yes. I mean, speaking as a a, an ex program maker, obviously a lot of PR agencies came with ideas for me, and some of them were great. But as you said, sometimes people were media trained. And I used to do a phone in with local mps as well. And of course they had all been media trained.

Found out people will sense that unless you are very good, unless you've got an equity card in pretending so on that grounds, and then flipping it to the positive, but then if you let your enthusiasm out or your vulnerability, that is your strength. You know, genuinely you can tell, I'm like, this is not visual, but there's a lot of hand movements going on.

I can tell you with Miranda at the moment, it's, you know, it's, it's human. And I think when you're building trust in an organization that can really disarm people and charm them as well and they think wow. Okay. I've seen the human side to this leader possibly for the first time, and that can be incredibly powerful.

Or, you know, and rest assured, of course I can do that. so sometimes you do have to work out, okay, how far do I go? I need to be myself, but which bits my story am I going to talk about? And, and that's fine. You know, there may be bits where you think no, but do allow yourself to be

yourself as far as you can.

Ross: Now it's, it's a kind of trite truism. people talk about the power of storytelling, and I do believe in the power of storytelling. For the, the ways you've just described there about authenticity, about perhaps being vulnerable and using your own words is, is there more to it, this storytelling?

That isn't a thread. What you are doing is marshaling the data, aren't you? You are marshaling the facts and the feelings around them and creating something that feels purposeful. And I do think that's powerful, particularly now where we are subjected to a deluge of data all the time, whether we're on our phones or not.

There's a lot of stuff going out there that feels deeply, deeply chaotic. And the feedback I get from founders I work with is there is something deeply satisfying working out the threads of their story that enable them to understand why they do love doing X and they really don't like doing y. which is about.

Fear as a little child, feeling a bit, ooh,

there's a monster there, but stories make sense of that. And I would say the same applies to founder stories or stories around skills. It helps you make sense and. Rationalize things that might otherwise be just a noise in your head. Why? Why don't I like doing that?

Why do I like doing that? So that systemization, I think is really powerful around storytelling, particularly in the workplace for leaders. It just helps 'em save time and reassures them and roots them, gives them ballast. You were talking about, you know, when leaders step up into a new role, sometimes it's really useful to remind them, you know, that skill that you haven't used in a long time, you could use that in this new role.

What, what's important, what's significant, and what isn't.

Ross: Lovely. now in your work, this type of work with the founders and and leaders, have there been any surprises or, or bumps in the road along the way?

Miranda: So I've, I've mentioned some of them. I'm just thinking, so I mentioned, you know, my shock and horror that not everybody has a beginning story. I think sharing too much is a thing that leaders and founders do need to think about. If, so, if you are leading in a bigger organization, it, it's making sure you know where your boundaries are.

and same with founders who might be sharing stories with an external audience or internal audience. I think you do need to think about that. So vulnerability is good, but sometimes being too open. You just need to think about it carefully. And I say that probably that's rooted in my experience of being, feeling very protective.

because people have come out, you know, I remember a managing director said when she read the story I'd written around her, she just burst into tears. She still used the story, but it can be really powerful working out what really matters to you. so I think there's that. I think also, sometimes, the thing that you think is your superpower and of great value to the person that you are with often turns out to be a huge burden to them.

And that's fine for a bigger organization. But when I've done it for a founder and we've come away with 60 minutes of material and then I hand over what I call these nuggets, little answers clipped up into little bits, that can be really, really overwhelming for them because there's just too much material.

And suddenly having vaunted myself as a person who can give them clarity and consistency in a really defined way, suddenly I'm overwhelming them with the amount of material. So that is something I've had to curb. I can be very enthusiastic on behalf of people

and produce lots of things, and then it can be overwhelming.

So reducing overwhelm is something I have to be wary of.

Ross: So, Miranda, if, if someone was listening to this, really interested in what you were saying, why might they come to you for, for assistance?

I'm using journalistic terminology, a different angle. That lands with others. And that may be around, you know, what, what are they, what are they gonna get outta this change? What difference is it gonna make to them? Why should they bother? Should they leave now? So there's that clarity of thinking that comes before you open your your mouth.

Suddenly your elevator pitch at that meeting, which might be an internal meeting, a town hall with colleagues become so much simpler to share. So there's something around reducing the stress of not being clear about what you want to say. That comes down to time, which is something we've discussed before.

Sometimes you haven't been given time to think about, you know, what is the direction we want to go in and why do we want to do it, and why are we ruling this out and why are we ruling this in? so I think a lot of it is around clarity before the communication bit. And there's something really powerful about having that conversation.

So recording it, watching it back, realizing, oh, actually I don't look too bad when I'm expressing this really important thing, or having this light bulb moment. You know, it works at several levels that can build people's confidence and. Confidence, as you know, is a, a big thing for me. I love seeing that grow in other people, including leaders who people regard as being supremely confident in many things they do, but might not be confident in that area.

So it could be a, a, town hall meeting, or it could be a, a client meeting or a one-to-one, and then without being derailed by the unhelpful content that the mind naturally generates. And it just strikes me that we are very much aligned in, in what we're doing in our, in our work with leaders.

Miranda: Which is why I've always, always loved working alongside coaches. It's really odd that. The coaching world tends to gravitate, and I think there's several things which might spark more. There's one about leaping in the dark, being that willingness to leap in the dark because leaping in the dark is where often you find things that are really valuable.

But it's the same with coaching isn't there's something intangible and it's the way you move and what you refer back to and the appreciation you show.

It's amazing what comes out. And it's that invisibility that produces huge value.

So coaches and what they can do, Wonderful.

I've never had any coaching training, I should say. Now I've learned everything on the job. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that, but, yeah, there we are.

Ross: So where is your curiosity and your creativity and focus going in the next year or so?

And my lovely mum died at the age of 63. And, my father very sadly, died when I was 18, but that, but 63, here's a narrative. So I've got in the back of my mind, I've got, if I was being maudlin, it would be, oh, okay, this is not good yet.

However, flipping it, which I like to do, it's like I have got to grab everything, and I need to just make the most and be grateful because sadly, you know, too many people I know have since left this world.

Really simple frameworks to help them do that for themselves because. I can no longer, I can do it one-to-one. I can do it for you, but it would give me huge, huge joy to help organizations, whether they're leaders, whether they're frontline teams or founders, voice, what matters to them. Share those stories as small videos, so it inspires other people.

It inspires their clients or their volunteers, or their donors or their teams. It helps 'em attract the talent they need to grow, because in a bigger context, what I feel is in the world of social media at the moment, there is stark polarization going on, which would have us believe that we have lost our humanity and our ability to connect with people.

And my feeling is if I can help people share there. Stories and their voices and help their organizations to grow in a more meaningful way because people understand their leaders better and leaders are clearer about what they want of their teams, what they want on behalf of their clients or volunteers, whatever size of organization.

If I can help enable those voices to be heard and captured, maybe on video or just captured live in a meeting and just sort of challenge the rather polarized debates that are going on about us, that would make me really happy. So I am. Trying to pump out resources called the Richest Conversations on a website that will soon be rebranded.

but already has resources there for people. You know, I just want to help people do that and be heard and be seen and be valued. So, yeah, that's my, my big, hairy, audacious goal for this 63rd year of mine.

Ross: Love it. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And it's, and it's compelling and the website is already great. So, um,

Miranda: That's very kind. If it's a Purplely website that you look at that's pre branding, I'm working with somebody who's lovely and it will be a bit more colorful,

the way you describe that is, is really compelling and, and energizing, so thank you. Now, I wonder, you've been so generous with us, Miranda. I wonder if there's a, a, closing thought or insights that you'd love to leave listeners with, maybe an idea, habit or a practice that they could start just experimenting with or.

Miranda: So you said the word listener. And I really believe that the richness of conversation comes from our ability to listen to one another wholeheartedly, which is something we've discussed. But I love it because it's something that you can apply at work or at home. So it might be about being really intentional when you meet your friend in a cafe or you have a meeting with a colleague and you do put your phone away.

What difference would it make? I'd argue. Probably quite a bit. You know, even at the supermarket checkout, I do have a tendency to check LinkedIn, but what if I put it away and ask the person at the supermarket, how are you, how are you doing? Rather than looking at my phone, well, well, the goods are being passed on the conveyor belt.

That probably would make a difference. In fact, I've experimented with that and it is lovely to see the reaction. the other thing I would do, again, it's linked to listening, is what I call layered listening, but that's my BBC view. Where as a. BBC radio producer of live programs, you'd had to do a lot of layered listening.

Tune into what's going on. I might hear the rumble of the trams, or if it's really early in the morning, the tweet of the First Birds of the Dorm chorus, or my own breathing. So what I'm trying to do is focus on all the different sources of sound that are coming to me. Julian Treasure, who's a very well known person who works in sound and listening talks about the mixer.

and it's a similar thing. It's listening to all the things, all the sounds going on around us that perhaps we're not tuned into. And in doing that, first of all, you become more mindful. And if you are sleepless, it sort of calms you down and eventually you fall asleep. But if you're doing it during the day, you're in a cafe and you decide to tune into.

And, uh, honestly, it will have an amazing effect on the person opposite you, whether they're your colleague or your teenage child, or whoever it may be,

Ross: Wow. Thank you so much. Oh, Miranda, it's been so great to, to chat to you. Thank you for your, your generosity, your, your wisdom, and your fearlessness to really just explore. Conversations and how useful they can be for, for us in the workplace. Really appreciate it. It's lovely to spend time with you.

Miranda: is been an utter pleasure. Thank you.

You don't need to be perfectly scripted. You need to be human from an act perspective, that psychological flexibility, moving forward with purpose, even when things feel uncertain. So maybe there's something else to try after this episode.

Pause and ask one more question. Or give someone your full attention because as Miranda said, telepathy doesn't cut it, You'll find links to Miranda's website, the richest conversations in the show notes. and if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it.

Miranda: No, no, you are lovely as I, uh, because I've been listening to you anyway, but also I know you No, no, no. You made it very easy and you listen.