In this episode, Steve has a conversation with Tschäff (pronounced “Jeff”) Reisberg, the secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council and a professional flight attendant, about the vital role of the labor movement through the lens of MMT.  

They look at the intersection of movement building and labor's role, emphasizing that real economic advocacy should lead to tangible change. Steve contrasts this to the naivety of relying solely on voting within a captured oligarchic system.  

They discuss historical and current labor struggles, touching on the need for transforming unions from business unionism to class struggle-oriented unions. Tschäff shares insights on the positive outcomes of recent labor actions which have revitalized union activity. 

They also talk about the importance of a job guarantee and consider how unions might engage with broader social movements, emphasizing solidarity and the power of labor to enact change by shutting down production. 

Tschäff Reisberg is not only an early proponent of MMT, but is secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council, and an Association of Professional Flight Attendants member. He has been with the American Airlines Flight Attendants union in difficult and contentious times, including through Covid. This perspective has given Tschäff unique insights into the burgeoning labor movement we are experiencing today. 

All right, this is Steve with Macro N Cheese.

2

Folks, it's been a few episodes now

that we have been really, I don't know,

3

hyper focusing on the crossover between

movement building and understanding the

4

role of labor in that movement building.

5

Because many of you guys out

there are addicted to ledgers.

6

You guys love tracing the treasury this,

the fed that, you wanna know about M1.

7

You wanna know about all these wonky,

uh, monetary things when in reality,

8

part of the value of our MMT work

is that it's supposed to enable real

9

actual change by each one to each

one, each one reach one, and you got

10

to have power to do these things.

11

Stephanie Kelton famously says,

we just got to source the vote.

12

And I feel that that is somewhat naive in

this system in terms of sourcing a vote

13

in a captured oligarch driven system.

14

And we see evidence upon evidence

upon evidence upon evidence that we

15

don't have agency within this system.

16

So, in all my talks with labor leaders

and folks, they recognize this.

17

It's not even controversial.

18

They recognize that in order for us to

move forward, we need a strong labor.

19

And, you know, going back to 1978,

there was a great article and

20

I'll let my guest talk about this

some, but back then, UAW had 1.

21

5 million, million union members

capable of taking direct action.

22

Today, that number is

somewhere around 300, 000.

23

We've talked to David Van Deusen who

talks about his revolutionary insurgent

24

style of class struggle unions.

25

We've talked with Joe Burns about

class struggle unionism and the need

26

to go beyond the corporate union.

27

We have talked to Sara Nelson who

says that there's no such thing as

28

an illegal strike, there's only a

successful or unsuccessful strike.

29

And at the end of the day, each

of these things center around an

30

injury to one is an injury to all.

31

And that concept of unity and solidarity.

32

But lo and behold, when we try to explain

this to many of our friends in the MMT

33

community, many of the friends that we

work with, they're perfectly content

34

with just throwing an I voted sticker

on their forehead and bouncing around

35

as if they've solved world hunger.

36

They've got a green new

deal coming any minute now.

37

They have Medicare for All.

38

Oh, if it weren't for this.

39

Oh, if it weren't for that.

40

And nevermind the track record and

the long history of not getting

41

what we want, not getting anything.

42

In fact, getting kicked in the

teeth through genocides and other

43

such things, all being told it's

in the name of saving democracy.

44

Well, I'm focused heavily on bringing

a light to shine on the labor movement.

45

And while the labor movement in and of

itself is not all that we need, it is as

46

good a kindling, it's as good a starting

point as anything else that we have.

47

Because the political

parties, they're captured.

48

The political parties are private

interests being met for oligarchy.

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They're not there to serve we the people.

50

And so until we overcome that, until

we find a path forward, all the

51

MMT conversations we have amount

to a lot of navel gazing, sadly.

52

I mean, it's a radicalizing tool.

53

It's an opportunity for us to

show people you could have this,

54

but instead you have austerity.

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We could do great things, but

instead we're funding genocide.

56

You could have healthcare and a

job guarantee, but instead we've

57

got finger wagging and talking

about making bad decisions.

58

The capitalist world that we live in has

no countermeasure right now without labor.

59

And so with that, labor is

struggling mightily too.

60

Labor is dealing with people who are built

with rugged individualism and they're

61

tired and they're not used to seeing wins.

62

So I've asked my friend, Tschaff Reisberg,

who has put me in touch, quite frankly,

63

with David Van Deusen, with Sara Nelson,

with Joe Burns, and I've asked him to

64

come on and talk to me, not only about

the state of labor, because the last

65

time we had Tschaff on, we kind of talked

about the state of labor, but we're

66

going to talk a little bit about the

history of labor and some of the really

67

key moments that have caused us to not

gain progress , and the little glimmers

68

of hope that we have trickled in through

horrific news, that we see on the daily

69

basis that just wears our soul away.

70

So without further ado, let me bring on my

guest, Tschaff Reisberg, the secretary of

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the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council and

member of the association of professional

72

flight attendants and friend of mine.

73

Welcome to the show, sir.

74

Tschaff Reisberg: Hello my friend.

75

Thank you for having me on.

76

Steven Grumbine: Yeah.

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Um, you know, pretty gloomy intro, but I

mean, I, was waiting for my lie detector

78

to go off and it told me I was not lying.

79

It told me that I was simpatico

with my own core beliefs.

80

Tell me what's up with labor, bro.

81

Tschaff Reisberg: My heart was racing

actually when I was listening to you

82

make that monologue because to keep

that honesty going we are in a very

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scary moment in our history right now.

84

It could easily get a lot worse than it

is, or we could start making progress.

85

And there's signs of both

happening at the same time I'd say.

86

Steven Grumbine: You were very kind in

sending me an article about a former UAW

87

president who basically recognized in

88

Let's just keep it real.

89

Let's keep it a hundred here.

90

Right.

91

It was before Ronald Reagan, sold out

labor with the air traffic controllers.

92

So this was on Jimmy Carter's watch.

93

But in 1978, the head of UAW resigned

from a larger body of labor in the

94

name of capitalism basically playing

completely unfair and not being

95

willing to place labor on even footing.

96

Talk to me about this particular letter.

97

I think it's really important.

98

Tschaff Reisberg: Yeah, I'm kind

of surprised that I discovered this

99

and it wasn't more talked about.

100

The president of the UAW,

his name was Douglas Fraser.

101

In 78, He wrote his resignation

letter and he made it an open letter

102

about why he's leaving this group.

103

And he said, there's this group of the

head of big unions and big business,

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they'd meet and they try to find any

common ground on the political front

105

and see what they can achieve together.

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And he said that, uh, the old terms of

this, this truce, and this is what it was.

107

It was, there was a unwritten truce

between labor and capital that labor would

108

not try to challenge capitalism itself.

109

It wouldn't try to challenge the

capitalists' control of foreign policy.

110

It wouldn't try to challenge capital's

control of domestic investment.

111

And in exchange for this, the unions

would get a right to exist and a

112

right to share in the prosperity

that comes with productivity

113

gains and technology advancement.

114

that truce was starting to break down.

115

The capitalists saying, this is

not advantageous to us anymore.

116

And we're going to go back into a hot war.

117

And Douglas Fraser specifically named

three things that - or four things

118

that he was trying to advance or

labor itself was trying to advance.

119

They wanted national health insurance.

120

They wanted a minimum wage

that was, you know, dignified.

121

They wanted social security enhancements

and they wanted tax law to confiscate the

122

wealth of the very wealthy individuals.

123

And they were making zero

progress on this whatsoever.

124

And in fact, corporations,

were going to start challenging

125

unions' right to exist altogether.

126

And so he resigned just stating this

is our scenario right now, we're at

127

an impasse and, there's no point of

coming to these meetings anymore.

128

And we know from history now that he

was spot on on everything he said.

129

It was just a bloodbath

for labor ever since then.

130

We saw this line of

wages and productivity.

131

They were virtually identical between

the end of World War 2 and the end

132

of the late seventies, and then they

started to diverge and wealth inequality

133

in this country got worse and worse.

134

The middle class kept having the

screws turned in them ever since.

135

And we've never made progress

in any of those big issues

136

that labor wanted to advance.

137

Steven Grumbine: It's funny because in

72, obviously Richard Nixon removed us

138

from the Bretton Woods accord, which

functionally was a world standard, a

139

dollar standard for the world, but based

on a gold convertibility of the dollar.

140

And you can see clearly that that

understanding the tethering of that fiat

141

currency to a, you know, an external

constraint, such as a peg to a metal had

142

a lot of, things that we didn't consider,

or maybe they knew and kept to themselves.

143

But clearly the working

class didn't understand.

144

Clearly the unions didn't understand.

145

Clearly the voters didn't understand.

146

But big business clearly did understand.

147

The entirety of the movement of

capitalists understood because they

148

began to gain wealth at a level

that - and it continues, right?

149

We're talking about the hockey stick

of wealth inequality beginning.

150

You know, I guess it took a few years,

like four or five years, but under Carter

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and then on steroids under Reagan, we saw

wealth inequality go through the roof.

152

We, the people, never were able to,

vocalize with conviction the things that

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Fraser brought up in his resignation.

154

The four things that he was

seeking are things that we

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all should have been seeking.

156

We all should have known, Hey, gosh,

they took away the peg to gold.

157

Now we can afford these things.

158

We can do it without any of the, or we

could have done it before anyway, but

159

that signaled a real shift in everything.

160

It didn't have to be bad.

161

Right.

162

Obviously, you know, as MMTers, we know

that the lens of MMT is apolitical.

163

It only is weaponized once you

overlay a value system on it.

164

A socialist is going to lay a

very different value system.

165

A unionist may lay a very different

value system over that MMT lens.

166

And a capitalist and a warmonger and

a fascist are clearly going to place a

167

different value system over that MMT lens.

168

As you look back at the gains or the

loss of gains, if you will, of the labor

169

movement, what do you think is the net

effect of that shift to the free-floating

170

fiat currency that was no longer

convertible or pegged to a commodity?

171

If you have an MMT standpoint, you

understand that only a floating

172

fiat non-convertible currency is

compatible with full employment.

173

Tschaff Reisberg: It's good that we

gave up on that promise because

174

that promise was imposing unnecessary

austerity on the population.

175

And, uh, we could definitely do without

that, but here's the thing, like

176

unions have been in a reflective state

because they understand that if they

177

keep on doing business as the status

quo, uh, we're not going to have a

178

labor movement left in this country.

179

Like we see the union density

decreasing year after year.

180

It's flat now.

181

At least we stopped the hemorrhaging.

182

And, uh, what happens next is, uh,

it's very exciting to find that out.

183

But we had this understanding that,

and, and left run unions, by the way,

184

they understood this from the start.

185

Like you read some old union

charters and you'll see that they

186

would be considered like woke today.

187

So they were just all for

equality among workers.

188

We're not going to discriminate each

other based on our race, our religion,

189

our sexual preference, where we're born.

190

Like, if you're a worker, we're going

to have your back and vice versa.

191

We're on the same team.

192

That was, that was the mentality.

193

And because of this peace agreement

with capital, all these people that

194

had a critique of capitalism that

says the system wants to divide us.

195

The capitalists would be happy

to divide and conquer us.

196

They were purged from the unions.

197

And I kind of understand that

decision because you don't want to

198

fight a war you're going to lose.

199

But, it's taken us 50 years since

Douglas Fraser resigned to understand

200

that capitalism is not for us.

201

It has never been for us.

202

And to, come to that realization,

it's very much like MMT.

203

I have Joe Burns to thank for that.

204

Joe Burns has released a book

called Class Struggle Unionism.

205

And it was just, it was the

right book at the right time.

206

All these people are like, man,

what we're doing today is weak tea.

207

We need something more powerful or

you're going to have to change our

208

status quo because we are going to lose.

209

And so one thing that those, old lefty

unions never understood was money.

210

And I think the labor movement's gotten

so much better when it comes to being

211

anti racist and, all the other things

that they want to divide us over, but we

212

have never wrapped our minds around money.

213

And I think those wall street

guys that are happy to just burn

214

the planet to make a profit.

215

Uh, they probably, I'd say most of

them do have a general understanding.

216

You'll see, there's always money if

you want to fund a war, but if it's

217

to fund healthcare, we're broke.

218

Steven Grumbine: So what do

you think it would take to

219

get labor to understand money?

220

I mean, do you think that there is an

appetite for this sort of awakening,

221

or do you think that they're just

too bogged down with life as it is?

222

And, and just maybe even a tad

bit of that rugged individualism.

223

I mean, cause everywhere I look,

I see people, whether they're just

224

ignorant or whether they're true

believers, but they're just, they

225

fancy themselves capitalists now.

226

I can see them hiding the

answers on their test paper, not

227

working to help others succeed.

228

All in the name of getting the, uh,

valedictorian as opposed to, you

229

know, making sure everybody rises.

230

So what are your thoughts?

231

What do you think prevents that?

232

Tschaff Reisberg: Um, that is the

biggest question I've got personally.

233

I don't know.

234

I've got a way of selling

it to union members.

235

And these, these are ones that

are already in the labor movement.

236

Because you have the situation where

unemployment is used as a tactic of fear

237

in the labor movement, we can't organize

new workplaces because the punishment

238

of unemployment is just so severe.

239

Everybody's got their mortgages.

240

They've got student debt.

241

They've got all this, uh, need

for a job and the pain of being

242

unemployed is, substantial.

243

So if you're trying to organize a

factory and the factory boss is saying

244

that we're going to close our, our

factory, if you guys unionize, that's

245

a powerful weapon against organizing.

246

And take the example of Starbucks workers.

247

These are people that are not very

high up on the economic ladder and

248

Starbucks says we're going to turn

off credit card tipping if you

249

try to organize your workplace.

250

And once they started that tactic,

like workplace organizing right

251

there just dropped substantially.

252

And then on the more distant

horizon, you just have what

253

happens if you're in a bad economy.

254

There's this kind of idea where

we are at a state where things

255

will be like this indefinitely.

256

We don't have this anxiety that the

current situation might not last.

257

It could very well get worse.

258

In all these situations, a job

guarantee would be revolutionary.

259

Because once people are not afraid

to unionize once that they've got

260

like a decent income option for them,

and they can turn off the credit

261

card tipping and everybody will

just go work for the job guarantee.

262

So you're setting the floor of how

bad life can be with this thing.

263

So union members just

very naturally understand.

264

Oh my God, that'd be great if we

had the job guarantee, like compared

265

to what we're doing now, like in

Charlotte, we've got a solidarity fund.

266

If you lose your job because you're

trying to organize, uh, and by the

267

way, this is against the law, but

it still happens, uh, we'll try to

268

basically do a GoFundMe for you.

269

And, try to take that fear away that

the capitalist class will put on you.

270

But a job guarantee that could actually

be the thing that will snowball this into

271

actually a much more unionized country.

272

And if labor has more of a voice, uh, then

things will start to change a lot quicker.

273

Steven Grumbine: You know, I go back to

my friend, Clara Mattei, you've probably

274

read her book, The Capital Order.

275

And she details in great, excruciating

precision about how economists developed

276

austerity as a reaction, uh, an

overreaction, a massive overreaction,

277

to what they saw in 1917 with the

Bolshevik revolution and the backlash

278

against labor, because labor saw that

it didn't have to be this way and labor

279

started thinking different thoughts.

280

But, lo and behold, what has been

exposed in that moment though, and it

281

probably should have been exposed even

before that going back to the start of

282

the nation, especially times around the

Mexican American war, where you could see

283

capitalists withholding grain from the

people in the community and just letting

284

it sit in a barn while they starved.

285

We know capital wants control over labor.

286

We know that they want us pliable,

malleable, desperate so that we'll

287

take whatever is given our way.

288

And when they don't, they offshore

and they outsource and they do

289

all sorts of other things to

ensure that labor is in precarity.

290

The idea of a job guarantee literally

takes away some of, not all, because

291

the job guarantee is the base wage and

most of these wages are not minimum

292

wage jobs, you know, they're above what

would be deemed a living wage even.

293

So it's not a one for one.

294

I want to be crystal clear for folks,

but with that in mind, though, that is

295

literally giving away the power of the

capital order and the capital class

296

to withhold or hold over the head of

labor, the sack, the power of the sack,

297

one of the, you know, she broke out

three different forms of austerity.

298

There was the, uh, power of the sack,

there was the fiscal austerity, and then

299

there was, you know, monetary policy, the

interest rates, and ultimately by using

300

the power of layoffs and firing people.

301

That has always been the most

coercive force to keep people in line

302

and pliable and quiet and doing as

they're ordered, sir, kind of thing.

303

Why do you think we would be able to

bring a job guarantee to the table

304

and have it make it through given the

capture of our institutions in this

305

country by the capital order as it stands?

306

I'm interested because obviously as

an MMTer the job guarantee is core MMT.

307

It's a very, very important thing.

308

And as labor, to be able to hear them

understand, Hey, you know, if you go on

309

strike, we got a job guarantee waiting

for you, you know, don't be afraid.

310

Right?

311

Tschaff Reisberg: I love that.

312

Steven Grumbine: So here you go,

help me understand how this, like,

313

obviously I understand it, but the

feasibility of being able to get it

314

through, we have no agency short of

things that are not the norm, short of

315

the struggle, short of these tactics.

316

Tschaff Reisberg: Oh, I

can't wait to answer this.

317

This is such an exciting

question you asked.

318

Okay.

319

Steven Grumbine: Yeah.

320

Go for it, man.

321

Tschaff Reisberg: All right.

322

So we know like even historically

speaking, our political system

323

is, it's like gridlocked.

324

We are not able to make

any changes for the better.

325

Our fights, the fights my union takes on

are ones to just maintain what we've got.

326

And, uh, this also touches on

your earlier question, you know,

327

how do we get people to see the

bigger picture, including money?

328

Let's say your podcast, you know, I

don't hear on NPR, I don't hear on

329

Fox or CNN, any mainstream station,

anybody talking about the job guarantee.

330

So part of that is just

getting the truth out there.

331

And that is a service

that you are providing.

332

And I'm kind of amazed that

like the capitalists even

333

let you put this out there.

334

Because I always thought like pirate radio

stations were really cool in college.

335

And, this is like, you don't

even have to be a pirate.

336

You can do this and not

get arrested for now.

337

So, uh, I'm, I'm against single bullet

solutions, but that is part of it.

338

What you are doing is a

valuable service for humanity.

339

That's why I support this podcast.

340

I wish everybody else would too,

because it is a really a quality

341

product you're putting out there that

is useful for the people that are

342

trying to make the world a better place.

343

Um, so second of all, there's a lot

of people that you can talk to them

344

until your, your voice is hoarse

and it won't really change them.

345

And what I'm seeing, uh, where I work,

which is at American Airlines as a flight

346

attendant, most of the flight attendants

were pretty much tuned out to the labor

347

movement, to what their union's doing.

348

Like, they just pay their dues.

349

They hope they get a decent

wage and a decent contract.

350

And somebody will have their

backs if they're in trouble.

351

But they, they didn't understand like

where the labor movement actually

352

fits in, in the bigger picture.

353

What's changing that is when we start

doing transparent negotiations and we

354

see what our company actually thinks

about us and how they actually value

355

us, because we'll put our proposals

out on the webpage, and it's really

356

insulting what they're offering us.

357

And then when we actually show up to

the pickets , now you start seeing

358

flight attendants start connecting dots.

359

And it used to be like, going back

20 years ago, uh, you couldn't

360

say things like "fuck capitalism"

or "down with corporate greed."

361

That has changed and seeing my coworkers

march and say "down with corporate

362

greed" together was so cool to see.

363

That is actually progress.

364

So part of it is actually the fight.

365

And this is where Joe Burns comes

out with another just absolutely

366

brilliant observation, which is

that showing people is a lot more

367

effective than talking to people.

368

And so his idea was we

should revive the strike.

369

Each one of these strikes

is like a little revolution.

370

You show yourself that you've actually

got power, that your opinion matters,

371

that they're trying to manipulate your

opinion because your opinion matters.

372

And especially when you win, now

you got a little taste of your own

373

power and you want more of that.

374

So part of that is you need

to have a fighting union.

375

And so that's why I've directed

a lot of my attention, uh, try to

376

change our union from a business

union that just tries to cooperate

377

with management to a fighting union.

378

And there's another union

that's, uh, been doing this.

379

UAW, where UAWW, which is this,

uh, democratic caucus responsible

380

for shaking up their own union

to make it more democratic.

381

And they were responsible for getting

Sean Fain, their current president.

382

And their current president had

a mandate to organize the South,

383

which is something that labor

unions have been very wary to do.

384

They thought it was just a lost

cause, that the workers are just too

385

brainwashed to ever go for a union.

386

You're just gonna be wasting your time

and money trying to organize the South.

387

And then they just won huge in Volkswagen.

388

And then they just, uh, more

recently they won at Daimler here

389

in North Carolina, where I live.

390

They just got a great

contract, major gains.

391

And, they're doing Mercedes now.

392

And that's looking pretty optimistic.

393

Before that they did the big three

strike and came up with huge gains.

394

The actors and the writers

did their strikes and they all

395

came out ahead in those fights.

396

So we're seeing a transformation

of the character of unions.

397

They have to be more democratic.

398

They have to actually share like a

critique of capitalism, and to be

399

democratic and actually like have

that democracy mean something means

400

that the membership actually has to

stay informed about what's the nature

401

of our, of our world we live in.

402

And so education has to

be a huge part of that.

403

Steven Grumbine: You know, in

talking with Joe previously, one of

404

the things that really was, I mean,

he, he didn't really hold back.

405

Was that a lot of union leaders had

really grown quite comfortable with

406

their five star dinners and their golf

course trips with the business leaders

407

and their cushy, you know, offices in

DC, as opposed to actually being with

408

the workers they supposedly represented.

409

And I think that that snapshot, that

vision, if you will, of a corporate union

410

and a corporate union leader lapping

up the benefits while simultaneously

411

selling out their constituency

just really, holds a lot of people

412

locked into that paradigm and, and

they don't see the value of unions.

413

I'm curious, given that, you know,

so much of this is predicated

414

on unions changing and shifting.

415

And you know, I see, you know, Sean Fain

and some others working to line up their

416

contracts to enable the potential even,

even the mere threat of a general strike.

417

And yet there's Sean Fain right

away, before it even had to be

418

done, endorsing Genocide Joe Biden.

419

Just to, you know, show that, you know,

people that are out there looking and

420

wondering, you know, where these folks

are going, it's it's hard to put trust

421

in that when you didn't have trust in the

guy to begin with who has shown himself

422

to be a capitalist through and through.

423

How do you convince people that leadership

of the unions is really fighting for them?

424

Tschaff Reisberg: Part of business

unionism was you're gonna try

425

to cooperate with management.

426

Intuitively it makes sense to us,

like, we want our companies to

427

survive, we depend on our companies

making profit to put food on our

428

table and we value our job security.

429

So we don't want to be

adversarial with management.

430

But that is a test we've

done so many times.

431

And unfortunately it's

not our, our choice.

432

Like capital is going to take

as much from us as we can.

433

And we have to fight

to defend what we got.

434

We have to fight to make any gains

and it's going to be a fight.

435

There's no cooperation.

436

This is Douglas Fraser's

resignation letter.

437

You will not find common

ground with these guys.

438

You guys have nothing in common.

439

So unfortunately it just

has to be adversarial.

440

And, I think the last 50 years

of unionism bares that truth.

441

But there's also a necessary for

every union member when speaking

442

to another union member to bend

over backwards to be honest.

443

I'm talking about an honesty that you only

see in like maybe some parts of science

444

and even there they struggle with it.

445

But if you're going to make an

analysis and try to tell that to

446

somebody, you have to tell that

person you're talking to every reason

447

you have to doubt your analysis.

448

You have to say why, what facts shed

light on that analysis being wrong.

449

You have to tell exactly how you came to

your, your thinking so that they can be in

450

a position to make an educated decision.

451

And, much of what unions do is

when they're getting started is

452

like, uh, it's like salesmanship.

453

And this is a part that I struggle with

personally, because I don't like sales.

454

I don't think that's,

it feels manipulative.

455

It's like when you go to a car dealership

and they're going to tell you all the

456

great stuff about the car that you want

to, that they want you ,to purchase.

457

They don't tell you the bad stuff.

458

And so they say, Oh yeah, you need to

just, uh, you need a, union that will

459

fight for better wages, a pension,

better security and all this stuff.

460

And everybody's like,

yeah, that sounds great.

461

I'm for that.

462

But, that will get you a business union.

463

You also need a union to

fight in the class war.

464

And when you're telling that to

people, when they're not ready to

465

hear it, you sound like a crazy lefty.

466

And I can say it here on this

podcast and everybody's like, yeah,

467

sure, that makes perfect sense.

468

But when you're, you're reaching an

audience that isn't as far down the

469

path of, uh, whatever path this is of

self empowerment, of self determination,

470

it just sounds like this is a far left

plot and, uh, you're going to lose them.

471

You're not going to get

them to sign that card.

472

In fact, they're going to

be hostile to you perhaps.

473

So what's happening more often

than not is when unions have this

474

opportunity to structure themselves to

be democratic and to set their goals

475

to be fights that you're picking that

will lead to bigger wins in the future.

476

Because that's, really the important

thing is when you don't have enough power,

477

you have to be strategic about where

you're going to deploy your resources.

478

So whatever your, your fight is, part

of your analysis of whether you should

479

take it on or not should be, does this

lead to greater power in the future?

480

Can we fight bigger fights in the future?

481

Or is, or is this the hamster wheel?

482

And so you create these unions

that basically are hamster wheels.

483

You're going to negotiate a contract.

484

You're going to enforce the contract.

485

You're going to fight all the

bullshit the company is going to

486

do in between the contract fights.

487

And that's not ever going

to lead to more power.

488

It's just going to be spinning your

wheels to hold on to what you got.

489

And that is because you missed

that opportunity at the start to

490

create a class struggle union.

491

So now it's a big fight to change

what your leaders do in your union.

492

And that's, it's always

this rank and file fight.

493

It's winnable, but it's slow.

494

It's time consuming.

495

But I think younger generations are just

way more open to it than older ones.

496

So it's promising.

497

Steven Grumbine: You know, I'm

watching the encampments across all

498

the universities, across America.

499

And I'm seeing something that

I haven't seen in my lifetime.

500

Closest thing I've seen to this might

have been as we got tired of the

501

Iraq war, seeing all the protests

around, but these are longer standing.

502

This reminds me very similar

of Occupy Wall Street.

503

It has some of those kind of overtones.

504

But from people that are a

little older than me are telling

505

me it reminds them of Vietnam.

506

And I watch this and I say, okay, how

can unions tap into this or is that

507

taboo because this right here is energy.

508

It's power, it's actions, people

demanding, it's people saying divest

509

from this evil thing that you're doing.

510

And, you know, BDS is completely

founded in the righteous end of an

511

apartheid, you know, ethno fascist state.

512

And I think to myself, how might a

union be able to leverage this tactic?

513

Is there a way to build solidarity

with them and create even more power?

514

Or is this one of those things like in

the movie Braveheart where the nobles

515

saw William Wallace trying to, uh, do

all this stuff and they kind of quietly

516

let him get taken away by the Crown.

517

I mean, like the selling out of labor.

518

There seems like this is an obvious

opportunity for class struggle,

519

even though let's be fair, some of

these folks were probably born on

520

the right side of the silver spoon.

521

It's still incredibly empowering

to see people, I mean, they're

522

putting their life on the line.

523

These kids are getting beaten up.

524

These teachers are getting

knocked to the ground.

525

And I mean, just crushed by a brown

shirt rising in these, these fascist

526

pigs, these cops that are not in any way,

shape or form protecting and serving.

527

They're literally the antagonizer.

528

But they're showing what I consider to

be strength, courage, and conviction.

529

And they're not sitting there going, well,

I'm not going to do this because maybe

530

my job in the future would be, they're

saying this needs to be addressed now.

531

And I'm going to take it on now.

532

And I may not win, but I'd

rather die trying than allow

533

them to continue doing this.

534

Is there any opportunity for

unions to work with this?

535

Tschaff Reisberg: There is.

536

And by the way, those who are

putting their bodies on the line

537

like that to fight for somebody else.

538

I think that, first of all,

those are, those are my heroes.

539

Steven Grumbine: Amen.

540

Tschaff Reisberg: There is something

that's so beautiful about union culture

541

that this resonates with, which is

to be successful, our power is unity.

542

And so to be a really strong fighting

union, it's all about solidarity.

543

It's all about fighting

each other's battles.

544

And that's probably my favorite

part of union culture is

545

standing up for each other.

546

So, you know, when this was just

getting started, we were hoping the

547

AFL-CIO would put out a ceasefire

resolution, because it was really clear

548

to everybody who's watching that there's

just gross violations of human rights,

549

international law, even domestic law.

550

It was completely outside of the

bounds of any sort of acceptable

551

conduct by union standards.

552

However, where I live, It's, uh, it's

a purple state, but there's a lot of

553

fascist individuals in this state that

are for a lot of reasons, very much on the

554

side of Israel is, is in the right here.

555

And, this is their union too.

556

And so that calculation probably

was being made at the highest

557

levels of the labor movement.

558

And the AFL-CIO, they're saying, well,

we just don't want to uh, piss off the

559

right wingers by taking a stance on this.

560

And, uh, in Charlotte, we did something

that's A, a violation of our labor

561

council's charter, but also it's

unprecedented for our own history.

562

We are not allowed to take a resolution

on international affairs or even domestic

563

affairs that cover the whole nation.

564

But we're all so upset by what we're

seeing, like, we're just seeing

565

these atrocities just streamed

every single day to our phones.

566

Uh, there's just no denying that this

is going on and it's unacceptable.

567

And so, one of the members from a pretty

conservative union, Ironworker, came to

568

our Central Labor Council and he said,

I think we should call for immediate

569

ceasefire and return of all the hostages.

570

By the way, the hostages

are on both sides.

571

And, um, we discussed it and it was

really tense in that room because

572

this is, really uncharted waters.

573

And if we get punished, if, if the, uh,

national throws the axe on us, like we

574

could all lose our positions and have

our labor council taken over by them.

575

And after a discussion, we voted

and it was unanimous that we

576

needed an immediate ceasefire.

577

And that was new ground for us.

578

We'd never tested those waters before.

579

And now that we did, and we were

scared to, I was definitely scared,

580

but we felt it was right and we did it.

581

And we showed we're on the same

page when it comes to human rights.

582

And that has to be a core value

of how unions will ever be strong.

583

We all have to agree.

584

There's no lesser human

beings out there in the world.

585

We all are all full fledged human

beings, all equal to the same rights.

586

And if we don't all agree on

that, we don't have power.

587

Any disagreement on that

just weakens us all.

588

Injury to one is injury to all.

589

And the other thing that that

labor movement has that the

590

other movements don't have is the

ability to shut down production.

591

So we didn't cause a ceasefire

with this resolution.

592

But it does lay the groundwork for

more action like that, which could

593

lead to work stoppages because you

can protest all day long, until your

594

voice is hoarse and you're just

sick of walking back and forth.

595

But if you don't have a way to escalate

things, they'll probably ignore you.

596

So you, you always have to have in

your mind, how do we escalate things?

597

And that's what the labor movement shows.

598

That it has that most

movements don't have.

599

And the other thing that's really powerful

they have is they have the ability to

600

have an organization that's capable of

negotiating on behalf of the membership.

601

And so, that back and forth that you

do in negotiations, a lot of these

602

movements, have not achieved their goal

or even worse, they've seen their goals

603

demolished and gotten worse because

they don't have that institution that's

604

capable of A, escalating and B, partaking

in negotiations that are legitimate.

605

And so that's, I think, where

the labor movement has a lot of

606

untapped potential going forward.

607

Steven Grumbine: I want to ask you

something very specific, and I'm

608

going to probably butcher this, so

please read between the lines, do

609

whatever you need to do to answer this.

610

Okay.

611

But, you know, obviously one of the

hardest things that I've experienced as

612

an individual, not as a union, obviously,

but as an individual is that I've gone

613

from the right to the left and I have,

bypassed my leftward, you know, swing

614

here, my orbit has pulled further left

than people who were once to my left.

615

And, you know, as I continue

around that thing, I'm constantly

616

reminded that everybody doesn't

see themselves as labor, even.

617

Everybody doesn't see themselves

as a part of the working class.

618

Everybody doesn't view the

world through a class lens.

619

And so, therefore, you end up

with a very, very strange, uh,

620

I'll use the word proletariat.

621

You end up with a very strange group of

people who don't see their shared purpose.

622

And ultimately, you know, you've got

people that will kiss the boot of

623

capital and you've got people that

will side with capital and you have

624

people that will side with fascism and

side with the oppressors, if you will.

625

And it's not anything new to this country.

626

It's certainly not anything

new to this time period.

627

Throughout history there's always been

Royalists that sided with the Crown or

628

people that were counter-revolutionaries

to the people that rose up to take rights.

629

I'm curious, how do you create a

shared solidarity within a union

630

that has very, very disparate people?

631

That's a huge struggle.

632

Tschaff Reisberg: We gotta always

take people with where they are.

633

And I think my critique of the left is

they can be pretty dismissive of you

634

and pretty unwelcoming if you do not

share their politics in every regard.

635

And like you just said, and certainly

it's been my experience, I think the

636

vast majority of us don't come into

all this with a class analysis and

637

our politics over the decades have

been evolving and they're going to

638

continue to evolve and our children's

are going to be different than ours.

639

And if the left is the more tolerant

group, uh, they're really exclusive

640

about who can be part of their club.

641

And as a result, they don't have that

strength that comes from numbers.

642

And so part of what unions do is we

just have to take people with where they

643

are, um, and not beat them over the head

over everything that we disagree over.

644

But instead, just because of the

interconnectedness of struggles, uh,

645

you get them on something that they care

about, like, a better contract, right?

646

Let's, let's talk about

something I know a lot about.

647

We're in a contract fight right now.

648

It's been five years since American

Airlines coughed up a new contract.

649

So we're living on these wages that

haven't gone up in half a decade.

650

Uh, starting pay is $27,000 before taxes.

651

And we can't live like that.

652

That's, a poverty wage.

653

And the company's like, well,

we're just happy to keep

654

this going, uh, indefinitely.

655

And part of our problem is as unlike the

UAW, we fall under the Railway Labor Act.

656

And the Railway Labor Act says you

can only strike if the company

657

and you haven't, uh, and your

union, haven't come to a deal

658

after a 30 day cooling off period.

659

And the cooling off period can only be

granted by the National Mediation Board.

660

And the National Mediation Board

is this political organization that

661

is part of the federal government.

662

And in the past, the Federal

Mediation Board has always granted

663

these 30 day cooling off periods.

664

But, they stopped.

665

There's been like two in the last decade.

666

And so without a credible threat to

strike, the airline has no incentive to

667

cough up a better deal and any notion

that you're paid fairly, you're paid what

668

you're worth that, you know, if you're

a good employee, you'll be rewarded.

669

All these, these notions that were kind

of, sort of true, like in the past in

670

American history, they've just faded.

671

And even the best, very, very best pro

company employees you got, they hate

672

coming to work because nobody wants

to spend their time at work miserable.

673

And that's what this company has

done to even the very best flight

674

attendants that get all the awards.

675

And then you see, well, why

isn't the national mediation

676

board allowing us to strike?

677

Well, it's because corporations

control the national mediation board.

678

And they're like, well, all right, fine,

let's change the Railway Labor Act.

679

This thing's a hundred years old

and it's preventing us from getting

680

the same gains that they had at

UAW and SAG AFTRA, Writers Guild.

681

And, you realize to try to change

that means we don't have a single

682

party that represents labor.

683

We have two capitalist parties.

684

And these people that their

security came from their affiliation

685

with their political party.

686

It's very uncomfortable for them.

687

They thought that these guys had their

back and they just find out, Oh no,

688

we asked them for their help and they

ignored us or they went against us

689

or they they bad mouthed the union.

690

And just that experience,

changes their politics.

691

And so I find just pull them in

and get them to do something.

692

Get them to do something, and then we'll

find the connectedness to other stuff.

693

And yeah, let's offer an education.

694

Let's say if you are earning a paycheck by

trading your time, you are working class.

695

And if you're earning your money,

I wouldn't even say earning, if

696

you're getting your money because

you own financial assets, you're

697

part of the capitalist class.

698

So, these classes have things in common.

699

They're antagonistic.

700

You don't have to beat them

over the head with Marx, you can

701

help them connect a few dots.

702

And as long as they're

engaged, they'll be all right.

703

Put your faith in the members.

704

Steven Grumbine: What does it mean when

you say, and I think I know, but I think

705

this bears sussing out a little bit.

706

What does it mean to have

two capitalist parties?

707

What is that saying?

708

That they cater to the individuals

who own industry at the

709

exclusion of the working class?

710

Or is it more a matter of, they just

accept that this is the way it is and

711

write laws that further this ends.

712

I don't, I think I know what it

means, but I just want to hear

713

what your idea of that means.

714

Tschaff Reisberg: Well, capitalism itself

depends on the state defining property

715

rights, enforcing property rights.

716

What they do after all that, there

can be a conflict between what labor

717

wants and what capital owners want.

718

so these parties conflict

behind the scenes.

719

A lot of people have this naive belief

that if you vote, uh, your politician

720

is going to represent you and it

doesn't work like that whatsoever.

721

What's really happening behind the

scenes is different parties, different

722

groups of people, are trying to

push their lawmakers to make them

723

serve whatever their interests are.

724

So this is not an issue

now, I think it should be an

725

issue, but say bankruptcy law.

726

If your corporation goes under, how

you are treated as a class is different

727

depending on if you are an owner of

the company or if you're a worker.

728

And in most cases, uh, if you are an

owner, you get priority over whatever

729

assets are left in that company and

workers get the crumbs that are left over.

730

That's a political decision

that our government made.

731

And so when I say that the capitalists

have two classes, in example over

732

example they are going to serve

the interests of capital over those

733

who earn a paycheck for a living.

734

And that's, 99 percent

of America right there.

735

So, uh, I think it ties into another MMT

adjacent traveler, Jamie Galbraith, who

736

wrote a book called The Predator State.

737

And basically the thesis is because

labor and capital have nothing in

738

common, he didn't put it in those

terms, but this is my translation.

739

You're going to find you are on

the opposite sides of every issue.

740

And, uh, your politicians

are going to side with the

741

predators over ordinary people.

742

Most of the time.

743

Like they toss us enough that we don't

outright revolt immediately, but they

744

just turn the screws over and over.

745

Uh, so we're heading to a future

that just can't sustain this.

746

Steven Grumbine: I'm curious, you

know, as you were talking about the

747

current state of your own contracts,

I mean, obviously there's been a

748

lot of really, wild stuff going on.

749

We saw strike busting, uh, with

the railways based on obscure

750

laws of a hundred years ago.

751

And we've seen a host of other things

occurring that basically put the

752

kibosh on your ability to strike.

753

And I think you kind of mentioned

a little bit of that earlier.

754

I am curious.

755

What is the state of your particular

spaces ability to get a new contract?

756

What are you all looking at?

757

Tschaff Reisberg: Well, the old way of

doing things was you would do a picket and

758

even though the Railway Labor Act forces

us to take a strike vote, then a cooling

759

off period, then there's possibility

of presidential emergency board.

760

There's all these hoops we got to jump

through, but just the picket will freak

761

out the passengers and passengers will

start to buy tickets on other airlines.

762

Investors are going to start to flee.

763

And that alone was enough to get the

company serious about negotiating a deal.

764

And that stopped happening.

765

And now, we depend on Uncle Sam to

let us strike and they're saying,

766

Nope, we want you to negotiate more.

767

And, we are trying a new tactic, which

is to send a letter to National Mediation

768

Board from, from anybody in the House

of Representatives who will actually

769

represent us, to sign on to that letter.

770

And we just did that.

771

We got 184 signatures, I think.

772

This was yesterday or two days ago,

and we're sending that to National

773

Mediation Board because this is

ultimately a political organization.

774

So, I don't think Democrats at this

point are in a very strong position.

775

They can't look as anti labor at this

state of an election year, because

776

labor unions are very popular right now.

777

So, that's working to our advantage.

778

We're going to find out probably in

the next month or so, it's probably

779

somewhere, yeah, the next two or

three weeks, if we're going to be

780

allowed to strike or if we've got to

find another way to escalate things.

781

It's going to be very

interesting what happens.

782

Steven Grumbine: Well,

good luck with that.

783

Well, I tell you what,

we're coming up on our time.

784

Help me make this the best podcast ever.

785

Take us to what we're missing.

786

What are some of the things that we maybe

didn't cover that we should have covered?

787

What do you think our listeners

need to take away from this podcast?

788

Tschaff Reisberg: I think there's

two things that are really critical.

789

And they both, they're so critical

they show up in your, introductions.

790

The first is your old introduction

ends with, I want the truth.

791

And so I want everybody to not try to sell

their point of view on other people, but

792

instead try to be so incredibly honest.

793

And there's nobody easier

to fool than yourself.

794

And so there's a guy named

Richard Feynman, a physicist,

795

did all kinds of great work.

796

He wrote a paper called

Cargo Cult Science.

797

I suggest everybody give that a

read, to understand how we can be

798

more honest with each other, which

is a necessity for being strong.

799

And the other thing I want

everybody to remember is, um, This

800

is in your introduction again,

is I don't want to, how's it go?

801

Steven Grumbine: "...The

tranquilizing effect of

802

gradualism and incrementalism..."

803

Tschaff Reisberg: That's it.

804

So when you're picking your fights, what

you have to have in mind is does this

805

lead to something bigger in the future?

806

Because at this time, we are

fighting to maintain what we've got.

807

And if we stop fighting, we're gonna lose.

808

Where we wanna be is fighting

to actually make progress.

809

So when you're strategizing about

What fights are we going to fight?

810

The number one thing you should be

thinking about is how will this lead

811

to greater power to win in the future?

812

Steven Grumbine: Very, very good, Tschaff.

813

I really appreciate you taking

the time to explain this to me.

814

Uh, appreciate the back and forth.

815

Uh, these podcasts are so much better

when they can be an exchange of ideas and

816

really appreciate the amount of effort

you put into trying to bring a union's

817

perspective and a real one at that.

818

Like, we recognize what we may

want, but this is where we are.

819

And pumping air in the tires

is pretty daggone tough.

820

Uh, it's been a long time coming and

trying to get it reinvigorated and stuff.

821

It's a really large ice cold glass

of water to the face as you try to

822

wonder why things aren't happening.

823

And, uh, you realize there's

a lot of work to be done.

824

Tschaff Reisberg: There's a

lot of work and a lot of ways

825

people can make a difference.

826

That's the main thing is everybody

just try goodwill towards men and

827

have faith that we will all do

what's right, if enough of us.

828

What a shitty ending that is.

829

Have faith.

830

This is how Sean Fain did it, the UAW in

the South Have faith that if the members

831

are given good, accurate information, 99

percent of them will do the right thing.

832

Steven Grumbine: There you go.

833

All right, buddy.

834

With that, my name is Steve Grumbine.

835

I am the host of Macro N Cheese.

836

My guest, Tschaff Reisberg.

837

On behalf of Real Progressives

we thank you all for listening.

838

Please consider becoming a monthly

donor at Patreon, Real Progressives,

839

and also you can come to our

website, realprogressives dot org.

840

Go to donate.

841

And by all means, there's

no amount too small.

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We are a 501 c3.

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So your tax deductible

donations are mucho appreciated.

844

And with that, for my friend

Tschaff and I, we are out of here.