Show Notes: "Letting Go of the Gods of Christianity"

In this soul-searching episode of the HeavenEarth Church podcast, founding pastor Ross Stackhouse welcomes listeners to Heaven Earth Church—a space intentionally created for those who don’t fit neatly into religion’s boxes. Ross Stackhouse dives deep into the heart of personal faith, collective spirituality, and what it means to confront our inner struggles and long-held beliefs.

Dr Brad Miller introduces the signature Sunday Morning Conversations, highlighting how the church seeks to meet people where they are, and sets the stage for the main message: “Letting Go of the Gods of Christianity.”

Throughout the episode, Ross Stackhouse shares stories of transformation and renewal within the Heaven Earth Church community. From the historical cast-iron bell that now serves as a “Sobriety Bell” for women completing their recovery program to the multiple organizations finding hope in the church’s spaces, listeners hear firsthand how new life is being breathed into a place filled with legacy.

Central to the message is the challenge to turn toward, rather than away from, difficult emotions and core fears. Using an engaging live illustration, Ross Stackhouse explores the interconnectedness of loving God, neighbor, and self. He shares how avoidance—whether by workaholism, numbness, or rigid religious systems—can fragment us and keep us from authentic relationship with God and others.

On a communal level, Ross Stackhouse candidly addresses how religious institutions can inadvertently (or intentionally) build systems of control that avoid vulnerability. He unpacks the ways doctrine can become dogma, the dangers of unquestionable authority, exclusionary practices, and how fear is often the root of these dynamics.

The episode wraps with Ross Stackhouse's vulnerable testimony about his journey toward full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people, drawing on biblical insights, personal relationships, and a commitment to humility and curiosity.

Takeaway Points

1. Turn Toward Yourself and God: Facing difficult feelings with honesty is essential for spiritual and personal wholeness. Avoidance leads to fragmentation.
2. Faith Is an Inside Job: True transformation starts from within, not from outward performance or rigid rule-following.
3. Institutional Religion Can Perpetuate Fear: Systems of control within churches often reflect avoidance of vulnerability and can cause harm if left unexamined.
4. Curiosity Over Certainty: Embracing mystery and being open to learning from those different from us is central to the way of Jesus.
5. Radical Inclusion Mirrors Jesus: The call to create a table where all belong, especially those on the margins, is woven throughout Jesus’s ministry—and should be in ours, too.

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Welcome to Heaven Earth Church. My name is Ross Stackhouse. I'm the founding pastor of Heaven Earth Church. From the beginning, our heart was to be a church for people who don't fit neatly into church. Our heart is to meet people where they are, to learn their stories, to honor their stories, because in every human story is God's story. In this podcast, you'll hear more about the people who now call Heaven Earth Church home, their stories, in many cases, of misfits, who are discovering or rediscovering faith.

If you want to know more about us, you can go to heavenearthchurch.org.

Otherwise, we invite you now into the story.

Hello, good people. Brad Miller here, the producer of the Heaven Earth Church podcast. One of the main benefits of being a part of the Heaven Earth Church community is our Sunday morning conversations taught by Founding Pastor Ross Stackhouse. You can watch and participate in the Sunday Morning Conversation this Sunday morning, 9:30 AM Eastern Time, at youtube.com/heavenearthchurch. The audio version of the Sunday Morning Conversation is available here on the podcast, which you can find at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on the website, which is heavenearthchurch.org. Now from the message series Where's Jesus, here is Heaven Earth Church Pastor Ross Stackhouse with the message Letting Go of the Gods of Christianity.

Help us to hear your voice, God, the spiritual language you speak. Help us to hear it and understand Within our spirits. In Jesus' name, amen. Uh, let's see, can I get a volunteer to go ring that bell? Anybody? Matt, go for it, brother. Let's go. Yeah, right now, Matt.

Do it.

Nice. Give Matt a round of applause. That was some good bell ringing. I've shared before, if you follow us on social media, this is an unapologetic plug to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. I don't even have Facebook or Instagram on my phone, but sometimes— do not as I do. Anyways, that bell was a cast iron bell from the 1860s. We know that because I went up there and there's wording along the sort of crown of the bell. that places it with a certain company that was only named that in the 1860s.

It transferred ownership and got a new name in the 1870s. It was Caston, Ohio.. And needless to say, when this church— it was formerly Whiteland United Methodist Church— it has such a rich and beautiful history. You see the revival picture back there. If you go back, there's a revival from 1921. Such a beautiful history that this church has. But of course, Whiteland United Methodist Church closed down in 2019. And so that bell sort of stopped ringing.

That congregation blessed so many people. Thanks be to God for it. We exist in their legacy right now. Like, think about that. Think about how sometimes when you feel like you've failed or your season has come to an end, You may not realize how you paved the road for the next people to flourish after you. And so they did that, but the bell had stopped ringing. The roof was leaking, the basement was flooding. This building was kind of in a tough space, but now, I mean, this building is flourishing.

There's so much that happens here. Resources of Hope uses the bottom level. This, as you don't— if you don't know, this building is owned by Spaces for All, a 501 nonprofit. Our church started in 2021. We rent it affordably to Resources of Hope in the lower level. AA meets here on— a big women's AA group meets here on Friday. On Monday, Al-Anon meets here in the back. On Wednesday night here, there was a— the Clark Pleasant School Corporation was having a meeting in the back while we were having Restoration Way here.

Thank you.

And at that meeting, now, because we have— we had almost 30 people on Wednesday night. Because there's a group from Terra Treatment Center, a group of women that now comes every week. And when they finish their 28-day inpatient program, so it's gonna be their last meeting with us, we have them go and ring that bell. So it's now called the Sobriety Bell as well. And everybody gathers around and watches as they ring that bell to celebrate that they finished their treatment. Thanks be to God, right? Look at what God can do. I'm a skeptic at heart, you know that, but I keep getting this very frustrating evidence that God is more real than I've ever imagined every week. This frustrating, wonderful, glorious evidence that God is so real and so good.

And I hear it every time that bell rings now.

Amen.

So I wanted to celebrate that with you, that here at Heaven and Earth we are, we are in the business of new creation with God. Go ahead, Alicia. Yeah, we've outgrown the space back here. We're going to be in the pews. Like, it's just such a wonderful thing. God is at work, and it's so cool to be a part of it with you. So I share that because, one, I just, I wanted to celebrate with you. If we don't come here and rest and have some gratitude, then What are we here to do? But also, I want to tell you what we've been talking about on Wednesday nights, because it's something I've learned from my journey recently, and we talked about it a lot on Wednesday.

So I actually need 3 volunteers now. Don't be shy. I'm not going to make you talk. I'm not going to make you dance. There's Joey. Joey, come on up. Man, I'm banging everything around today. We got Joey.

We got Jill. And we got Mandy. Come on up. Yeah. Actually, why don't you all come up here? Okay. So we've been talking about the fruits of the Spirit. Mandy, could you stand right here? But actually— well, actually— Let's not make it that way. You stand right here and you face that way.

Okay, Jill, you stand right here. Hi, Jill. Hello.

Good to see you today.

Thank you.

Yeah, and Joey, that'll be about good. You're about good right there. Okay, we've been talking about the fruits of the Spirit on Wednesday nights. They say in the, in the, in like in the rooms that recovery is an inside job. Recovery is an inside job. In other words, it's Inside out. You can't perform recovery. If you do, you'll relapse.

If it's from the inside out, if you're growing fruits from a spirit that is awakened, restored, transformed, recovery is sustainable. Well, the same is true for faith. Faith is an inside job. But it all— what we talked about was kindness, and I'll get to that in a minute. We talked about The fruit of the Spirit of kindness, and people told stories. You guys doing okay? Okay, cool. We talked about the fruit of the Spirit of kindness, and— And I'm just giving people hugs. I'm a hugger.

Joey, can we hug too? Bring it in, brother. We talked about the fruit of the Spirit of kindness. I've said that now 4 times. And what we asked people to describe kindness by an experience they had. And a theme kept popping up. People kept repeating the phrase, they didn't have to do it, but they did. That phrase just kept happening. They didn't have to do it, but they did.

I'm not going to betray anyone's confidence by mentioning the exact specifics of their story or name. Confidentiality is important to us. So then I asked, like, Well, what does it look like to be kind to yourself? We hear that phrase these days, right? Be kind to yourself. And it sounds kind of cliché and like touchy-feely. Be kind to yourself, right? But what happens when we do things for ourself that we don't have to, but we choose to do, right? And I was telling folks how actually, here's the thing that happens. You guys doing all right? They're all wondering, like, what are these people for? They're wondering it too. There's a reason I'm doing this. I'll explain later.

We talked about how one of the unkind things that we do to ourselves is this: we turn away from our hard feelings and emotions Like our core fears, sadness, anger, resentment. Go ahead and name some other hard feelings that you find yourself turning away from. You avoid them, you numb yourself, you distract. Hypothetically, name some hard feelings that hypothetically you find yourself avoiding, turning away from, whatever.

Trauma memories.

Okay. Disappointment. Hatred. What was it?

Fear.

Yeah. Grief. Loneliness. What else? Hopelessness. What do you find yourself turning away from in yourself? Avoiding, numbing, escaping from? Maybe you're playing Candy Crush Saga for 7 hours a day. Maybe you're trying to avoid something. Or King Shott. Love you, honey.

Doubt. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Here's why that matters. When Jesus is asked, what are the two— he gets asked, what are the two greatest commands? What's he say? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbors yourself. Basically all of Jesus's— the fulfillment of religion that he brings to us, the ancient religion, is this.

He's trying to bring to us what I call the Great Triangle, the Great Commandments in a triangle. And so, Mandy, you are God, okay? You are God in this illustration. You are not God in real life. Thanks for the clarification. Yes. Jill, you are— let's make you neighbor, okay? Say hello to the neighbor.

Hello, neighbor.

Won't you be my neighbor? And Joey is self, okay? Alright? So, here's the thing. We're made in God's image, right? We're made in God's image, right? Is there anything you can do about that to change that?

No. No.

So how might we know God very well? Yeah, true. Turn towards him.

Yep.

What about, what about this? What if Joey avoids his core fear? What if Joey starts to feel like core fears or negative emotions like shame, anger, and Joey does He avoids it, so he turns around. And he starts walking away. Bye, Joey. You can stand right there. That's fine. Joey's in a corner now. Has Joey just turned away from himself? Who else has he turned away from? So, here's what's crazy. Say Joey makes some hard decisions to be kind to himself.

And so he says, you know what? This grief has been devastating for me. I'm going to start to feel it. I'm not going to numb it. I'm not going to just dwell in shame. I'm not going to eat myself to death, drink myself to death, be a performer. Some people don't eat or drink themselves to death. They achieve themselves to death. They avoid their negative emotions by working.

They avoid their shame and insecurity by working. And how does our society feel about alcoholics? How's our society feel about drug addicts? How's our society feel about workaholics?

Good.

Oh, but workaholism looks like this. Think about it. When someone says, how are you? And you go, I'm busy. It's like a rite of passage.

Me too.

Watch what happens though. Joey's kind to himself and says, I've never been to therapy, but I've been— but I'm going to go to therapy. He's not in the corner anymore. Oh, I forgot to tell you this, this part. Turn back around.

Forgot this part.

When Joey does that, this is what happens. And Mandy maybe whispers something like, I'm still here. Psalm 139. Where could I go to flee from your presence? If I went to Sheol— Sheol's like this place after you die. It's not hell. King James Version got that literally wrong. God's right there. And watch what happens when he says, I'm going to go to therapy.

Whoa!

Or he says, I need to talk to somebody about this. Maybe not a therapist. I'm just going to talk to a friend I can trust. I'm going to talk to myself. I've been doing this when I walk recently. People probably think I have a problem. I'll walk along the neighborhood. I'll put my hand over my chest.

I went to a retreat that taught me this. It's one of the best gifts I've ever got. Shout out to Carolina and Kathleen. God bless you. I did not realize how I had spent my whole life after some trauma Building a system of control and self-protection so I could avoid my core fears. And my god has been control and achievement. Those have been my gods. So man, I learned from a young age, if I get first place, I don't have to deal with my fears of being abandoned.

Because what happens when you get first place? Go ahead and applaud. People love me. Isn't this wonderful? I get people gathered around me.

Right?

It's completely transactional. I have to get first place for you to do that. But then because my generation came along, they also did this new thing where I finished last place and you gave me a trophy anyway. That's also inauthentic. It doesn't teach you to face failure. You're avoiding failure. So Joey turns toward himself, feels what he feels, and now God says, hi, Joey, I want to show you— Joey's turned to himself. He started to process his core fears and his pain.

And the neighbor goes, Joey, I'm really struggling because of grief. What's Joey's capacity to love his neighbor now? Has it gone up or has it gone down? And how's this triangle doing? Is it pretty healthy?

Whole?

Give him a round of applause. You all can sit down. Our systems— one of the things that's so beautiful about humankind, about human beings, is we are extremely resilient. We are survivors. We are hardwired to survive. I've told you before, like, we are wired that when— if you're in— let's say you're at Yellowstone Park or you're at Glacier National Park and you see a grizzly bear. You know what's so wonderful about you? Your system's not going to go, hey, What do you think about this grizzly bear? Do you like it or do you not like it? No, your system's like, run! The amygdala kicks in like, we're ready to go. That's a beautiful thing.

It's also the thing that keeps you from flourishing because you get in survival, self-protection, safety mode. And you do it to survive. It's not a bad thing. You build this ego or false self. To build up a wall to protect yourself from facing your core fear. And you can do it forever and ever and ever. And sometimes you'll get applauded for it, especially if you're a workaholic. Sometimes they're like, gosh, that guy is so angry.

What's wrong with him? That's the tool he used to survive. If I'm angry with people and I push them away, I don't have to deal with my trust issues. If I dig more deeply into my hatred, I distance myself from people and I don't have to deal with relationships which are really hard for me. If I— sorry, this is blunt, but if I stick a needle in my arm, I numb the pain. But what do we say on Wednesday nights, Alicia, about— about what's Brené Brown's quote? If we numb the pain, what else do we numb?

Yeah.

Can't selectively numb emotions. You numb the pain, you also numb the joy. What in the world does this have to do with Jesus? Well, I think I just showed that a little bit. But here's where I think that we— well, let me stop. Do you think there's truth to what I'm saying? Or are you like, ah, this seems a little wishy-washy psychological malarkey? Truth to it or no? Are you— Okay, okay, alright, you're with me, you're with me. So, this is what I want to talk about. When we don't face our core fears, they have a way of becoming our gods. They become our masters.

I heard a therapist say that your ego is a good servant but a poor master. Giving up our gods and facing our fears helps us know ourself deeply And know the power and beauty of Jesus. What happens when we don't face our core fears? We become a fragmented person. That's a big fancy word for like, for example, you've got child Ross over here hurting and not healed while adult Ross is over here performing. Anybody got that going on? Huh? Or you got divorced, you sitting over here. Worker, you sitting over here. You got I lost a loved one over here. The rest of you over here.

So what is this? What, man, what does this have to do with our series?

What are we—

we're in this series. Okay, I gotta go back. I gotta find it. I gotta find it.

Gotta find it. Gotta find it. Gotta find it.

I I didn't put it there either. Oh my goodness, I gotta go back again. Yep, that's it. Oh, that's PT's message. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and there it is. Boom, we're in this series, Where's Jesus? Finding and following Jesus when much of Christianity doesn't look like him. What does all this have to do with any of that? Because guess what? If we do that at an individual level— are you with me? If we avoid our core fears with really intricate strategies, our insecurities, our vulnerabilities, like if we're like, man, what if I actually turn toward my really hard feelings? If I turn toward my junk, what if I'm vulnerable? Do you think we do that at the level of religion as well? If we, if we do it as individuals, what happens when we get together in a group? You've been to— hey, you ever been to a work situation where there's a bunch of ego going on?

Never.

Never, right? All you did was get a bunch of humans together that are avoiding their stuff. And so like we see each other like, hey man, your ego's running the show? Me too. High five. Let's do it. Let's run this whole thing. Let's run the company that way. Your ego's running it?

Oh cool.

Oh, you're angry and avoiding your stuff?

Me too.

High five. I hate humans? You do too?

Yes.

Hug it out.

No, wait. Don't hug it. I don't like humans.

Get away.

Our authentic self is always calling. But here's the deal. So like at an individual, individual level, maybe we have this core fear of abandonment. So if you had a parent that wasn't— that was struggling, maybe. That's powerful. And so at an individual level, or maybe you have some core fear from childhood, you build this system of thought, behavior, belief to protect yourself from encountering that fear again. Are you with me still? Okay. We may successfully avoid the fear for a while until the system breaks down.

So you get fired for the first time, or a friend betrays you, or whatever. So then maybe we develop anxiety, depression that's worse than we already had it. We do that individually, but here's the deal. In religion, what's that look like? What are the systems of control that religion builds? I want to hear that from you. What systems do religious institutions build to be self-protective, to keep control, to avoid vulnerability? I'll see if you're tracking with me. Yeah, so religious institu— if a bunch of people get together and have a nice little religion, how do they do that as a group, do you think? How do they avoid their fears together? What do they use? What tools? What's that?

Avoidance.

Avoidance. How do they practice the avoidance? What do they use? Go ahead, Melissa. Ooh, say it again. Unquestionable authority. So I'm the pastor. What I say today is the truth and you can't question it. That's an avoidance tactic. What else? What else does religion— go ahead, Adam.

Lots of rules. If I follow the rules, I'm good. Oh, and by the way, who gets to determine what the rules are, Adam? The nice word for that, which can be helpful, is doctrine. Doctrine can be a very helpful thing. It's a teaching that's come down to us from history that can help us navigate hard stuff. But then if we turn it into this more nasty word called dogma, where it's like something that's come up in human tradition And we treat it like it is the bedrock truth from God's own mouth, and you better believe it or else you're going to hell. That's just a control tactic.

I know.

What else? Anything else that maybe you've experienced in your past that you were at a church emphasizing only certain scriptures?

Shunning.

Oh, okay, okay. That would also be a control tactic if you were to strangle somebody. That would, that would That would be avoiding interpersonal sort of tension. Creating an atmosphere of exclusion where certain kinds of people belong but other people don't. What else? Highlighting the people who are the big givers. So like, again, there's a— there can be things that are good, but like a doctrine that we turn into a system of control. That it's a way to honestly just to protect ourselves and avoid our hard feelings of anger, pain, grief, insecurity, vulnerability. What else? Anything else from the religious crowd? Keeping women from being in leadership.

If you're divorced, you are— you're over here in this group now that like you can sit with us, but we're going to pray for you. Fear tactics followed by disfellowship if you don't follow.

Yeah.

Here's what I'm saying to you, because we got to move along. Honestly, a lot of it was just building a system of control to keep the leader or leaders from facing their own fear of vulnerability. Why do scandals happen in the church? Well, because people are human, A, but B, they're fragmented people. Over here, they're like big certainty. Here's the truth. I'm righteous. I'm holy. Over here, Are the skeletons in the closet that aren't getting dealt with, right? So I want to show you, I just want to show you how this works even in good and wonderful people like Peter, and then we'll close.

It happens to everybody. We can do it if we're avoid— if all of a sudden we get this like trigger, like, oh my God, that's my core fear. Oh, I'm so afraid. I don't want to face that. Find a way. I, I got to find something to avoid my core fear. What if I deal with that? I can't deal with that. Look at this.

Peter, right before— this is the Gospel of Matthew— right before this, Peter has said, I believe that you are the Messiah. And Jesus is like, hey, that's awesome. God showed that to you. You didn't figure that out on your own. Yay, Peter, right? Very next statement, here's what he says. Jesus, from that time on, he began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed. And on the 3rd day be raised. How does Peter handle this? How does he do?

Let's see.

Oh, God forbid it. This can't happen. And then Jesus is like, ooh, Jesus says some—

whoa.

He says a strong word to Peter. You're setting your mind not on divine things, but on human things. You're setting your mind on those human structures. What was he setting his mind on? Everybody in this tradition said that when the Messiah comes, he's going to be like Rambo and he's going to take back— or who? Rambo's too old school. What am I doing? I've never even seen Rambo, I don't think. Anyways, the Messiah is going to come back and lead this military revolution to take back the kingdom for the Israelites. And so Peter's like, you can't suffer and die. I can't suffer and die.

What's his core fear? What is it?

Death.

It's death. Abandonment. If you're not here, Jesus, what will I do? One more. Now there was a Pharisee named— a leader of the Jews. He's a big religious fella. He can't be avoiding his core fears and creating dogma that keeps people in control and keeps them from God. He would never do that, right? He's a leader of the people. He would never do such a thing.

He came to Jesus by night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher. He's kind of love bombing Jesus, maybe. For no one can do the signs that you do unless God is with that person. Jesus answered—

I love Jesus.

Nicodemus comes to him with all of his— Nicodemus has like the first 5 books of the Bible like pretty much memorized. He's a smart fella. He comes to Jesus with all this like, hey, I know some things. I've got it figured out. You're a good guy. There's no way people can do what you do unless God is in them. And Jesus is like, oh cool, man. Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.

Am I supposed to get in my mom's womb for a second time? What are you saying? Jesus answered, I'm telling you the truth, man. Unless you're born again of water and Spirit, You're not going to get this. Why baptism, people? Key in right now. Jesus is like, what's born of flesh is flesh. What's born of Spirit is Spirit. And then he says this line, which is one of my favorites. Don't be astonished. He goes, the wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes.

So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. What's Nicodemus's core fear? What's he desperately afraid of? He's desperately afraid of— What if I don't have control? You mean to tell me I have to just fall into the mystery of God like a trust fall? I don't think so. I need to— I need— religion's a tool for control. I can't fall into trust and mystery.

What?

I'm not doing that. Anybody else like that? How do you do with uncertainty? How did you do when I had the 3 people up here in a triangle? Was anybody getting antsy? Like, Ross, would you just tell us what's going on already? I'm going to end here. Look, there are things that we can know that aren't mystery. All right. Like, there are things that we can say with amount of certainty. So, for example, we have something on our website that It's not a boat. What's that thing in the picture there? What's that called? That little flap? Thank you, Adam. God bless you.

5 points. Give him a round of applause, everyone. See, that was my system. I was like, yes, I'll get the right answer and everyone will love me. You know, we have on our website and like in our church a narrative of beliefs. It's not dogma. It's something that we offer to you that can be a rudder for your journey. I would say it's an anchor, but I've been wrong about that.

An anchor keeps a ship, like, safely grounded in a harbor. Ships aren't meant to be that. Ships are meant to be out on the open sea, right? It's what they're made for. The rudder helps to direct them. So we have on our website, like, a narrative of beliefs that we offer to you as a rudder. It's not like, if you don't believe this point for point, get the heck out.

It's a rudder.

So like, we're not offering that so it's like we can become— everybody believes the same thing here. We want to have essentials in the, like, unity in the essentials. On the non-essentials, let's talk about it. That's how we practice here. Like, we're not creating a system of control. We're creating a culture of conversation and curiosity. Okay. And so just as we're saying, like, you can do that with your faith.

Or you can do that with yourself. Like, hey, part of the takeaway today is turn toward yourself. Turn toward your hard feelings in journaling, talking out loud to yourself while you're on a walk. Don't avoid your hard feelings because if you turn away from yourself, you're actually turning away from a deeper experience of God. Also, like, turn toward God. That's what the word repent means. That's why we offered this narrative beliefs to help you. Like, have a rudder, but not like a strict framework that you've got to adhere to.

Okay, I'm done. What do you— any comments from you or questions or thoughts? Could be on the individual side of things about turning toward yourself or on the religious institution side of things. I tried to connect those 2 today. Go ahead, Jen. Yeah, it— this church like talked like they held the capital T Truth. If you left that church, you weren't leaving the church, you were leaving the truth. That is a system of control that those people built to actually avoid vulnerability, authenticity, and fear. You were not wrong to leave it.

Oh, and by the way, Heaven & Earth Church doesn't have the market cornered on capital T Truth either. There's a lot of things I just do not know. I'm cool with that. I like mystery. What else? Is it Misty?

Go ahead.

So we have— I have a whole sermon that I'm going to send you, Misty. It's from— we had a summer series with questions. So, and I have a blog on our website about my personal journey with that very issue. So it's 10:39. Hmm.

Listen.

You guys asked for this, okay? It's 10:39. I'm being serious. I'll take 5 minutes. Okay. I grew up in a rural place where there is very clear— Bible's clear as day about it. All right. I took that experience long into my— I went to graduate school. I went to go study with a person at that school.

I didn't know what the school was like. This is an example of like, do your homework, people, about where you're gonna go and hang out for a couple years. I got there and at coffee hour there was like these people standing up and going like, we are the LGBTQ Alliance, blah blah blah. And I was like, oh my God, I came to a place with heretics. So I started hanging out with them though, and I started to be curious. I realized a lot of time when I was praying to God, I wasn't praying with curiosity. I was praying about with confidence and arrogance about my convictions. Hey, God, when I'm in conversation with them, will you help me to say the right thing to help them change their minds? So then, I'm sad to say it took me this much to change my mind on it.

I need to say that. I grieve that it took me this much to change my mind. I grieve it. So, and please, we welcome everyone to the table here. If you're not there yet, come and talk to me. So, I started hanging out with people who professed faith in Christ and were also LGBTQ. And when I was doing it, before I even figured out the answer, I was like, oh my God, this is exactly what Jesus was doing all along. This is Jesus! I felt so energized by like, oh, I get it now! It's not a theory! You should go like sit with people that you don't agree with! And let them teach you.

This is a marvelous thought. It's crazy. And then, this is in the blog on the website, my best friend's sister came out to me with the backdrop of hellfire. She said, I'm gay, Ross. Do you think I'm going to hell? That happened almost 20 years ago and it can almost bring tears to my eyes. And then I had another close friend. I went to an Anglican communion. I had another close friend.

Who came out to me in 2010. Now I started praying with humility and curiosity. Lord, help me understand how to love your people. And I think you guys know this, I love the Bible. It is my life. I do not disregard its authority. I'm not flippant with what is in there. I am poring over this and praying and praying and praying and praying and praying.

Amen.

And then after a time, as for me, it became clear. Just as one time— this is really important. If folks are like, this isn't biblical though, Ross, you're just saying what you want to feel.

No.

I realized in Jesus's own movement there was a precedent for this, because in Jesus's tradition Jesus is Jewish. In his tradition, could you eat with a Gentile? A Gentile is a person who's not Jewish. Maybe they like bacon. Could you eat with a Gentile? Were Gentiles allowed to come into the, the inner part of the temple? No, there was a court for the Gentiles. So if you were born Gentile, were you fully included? What if you were born Samaritan? Were we even allowed to be in the outer temple? The outer court?

Maybe.

Probably not. I looked at it and I saw it clearly. Acts 10. Peter goes to the house of Cornelius. He goes to the house of Cornelius. Is Cornelius a Jew or a Gentile? Gentile. He's a centurion. He's not just a little bit Gentile.

He's got some rank. And they both pray in their own spots. Cornelius feels called to be Peter, called to Peter. Peter feels called to go to Cornelius. This is our sent essential number 4. We have 5 discipleship essentials. One is being sent. Let God lead you to people without knowing the answers why yet.

So Peter goes to Cornelius, and while he's talking to Peter— or excuse me, while Peter's talking to Cornelius, He sees the Holy Spirit drop down on Cornelius and Peter's like— Do you think Peter's— oh look, we're tying it back to the sermon. Isn't God cool? Do you think Peter's core fears started to bubble up? What if I start associating with this guy? What if people start rejecting me? What if I step into this guy's house and start eating lunch with him? Will people reject me? Do you think he was worried about that? Praise God, do you know what Peter did? He went straight into that house. He said Gentiles are fully included now, baby. John 4, Jesus goes to a Samaritan woman. Samaritans were outcasts. If you were born Samaritan, you weren't even a Gentile, you were a cockroach. You know what's odd? Really, they're— they're a Jew and a Samaritan had pretty close beliefs. Same.

They're very close. Jesus meets the Samaritan woman at the well. She's been— she's not only Samaritan, she's had like 5 spouses or so, maybe. She's a Samaritan. Strike one. Say strike one with me.

Strike one.

She's been— she's a woman. She's a woman. And she's been married multiple times. And she's been married multiple times. And she's living with someone now who's not her hubby. Culturally, she's outcast. Yeah, she's out, out. And Jesus says, I tell you, there's a time coming when it doesn't matter if you worship on Mount Zion or Mount Gerizim.

What's going to matter is if you worship the Lord in spirit and in truth. Go back to your people. And in the Gospel of John, who do you imagine is the first sort of evangelist apostle in the Gospel of John?

That woman.

So the Christian movement fully includes Samaritans and Gentiles. So today I say the church should fully include and fully affirm LGBTQ people. My core fears came up when I started to first feel that way. What if I'm wrong? I'm being vulnerable now. What if I'm wrong? What if I, what if I get rejected by people, dismissed as a heretic? By the grace of God, I can tell you today, by the grace of God, I don't. I don't care. Do you know what I care about? Jesus and his way and how he has called me to love people who feel like they don't belong. His movement is for them, and so we should be too.

Our church is for that. Our church is— Hey, some of y'all have been insiders. Lucky for us, right? My life's been easy. To him who much is given, much is demanded. And so my life is here to go to the outsider, to create a table where they belong. So our church is about that. In that sermon that I can send to you, Misty, I go through every reference to homosexuality in the Bible. There's roughly 6.

There are general references to sexual immorality that do not apply specifically to homosexuality. They do not. It's a Greek word, porneia, from which we get our English word pornography. It applies more broadly to things like when Greeks were having a dinner party. It wasn't just a dinner party. Are you with me? Okay. Kind of like some stuff that goes on at Burning Man. Kind of.

If you know what I mean. There are a lot of things happening culturally. There are roughly 6 references to this very issue in the Bible. I go through them point by point. I love the Bible. It is authoritative in my life, just not in a literal, literal kind of inerrant way. Inerrancy is a bad question. So is literalism.

There are people in this church who probably literally think Jonah was swallowed up by a whale, and there are people who don't. I don't care. I do, but I don't, because I don't know. If God set the Big Bang in motion, could God have a whale swallow a dude?

Maybe.

Maybe it's just a fable. I'm not worried about it. Do I believe Jesus was literally resurrected from the dead? I do. That's a core thing for me. You see what we can do here? Our value. We can fix our eyes on Jesus and live by his Spirit, and it'll be all right. Okay. I'm going to look more into that passage.

I've never considered that perspective, P.T. I'm not, I'm not sure about that, but I want to know more. I'm curious. Oh, well, it's 10:52. This is your fault. You wanted to go here. No, it's a beautiful thing. Isn't church so wonderful? Listen to me.

I need to say this. If you're not of that position of mine, you are welcome at our table. Okay? You hear me? You are welcome at our table. The only thing we don't do here is harm. As long as we're not harming people, like we want to learn together, I'm going to keep saying that's my position.

Amen.

I'm going to keep saying that. I'm not going to apologize for it. I'm not. You're welcome at our table still.

Thank you for participating in the conversation happening at Heaven and Earth Church. Your next opportunity to do so live is this Sunday morning, 9:30 AM Eastern Time, either at the main campus at 309 East Main. The audio podcast is always available At Apple Podcasts and on Spotify. You can help others find out about the Heaven and Earth Church podcast by going to Apple Podcasts and/or Spotify and leaving a 5-star rating and your review. Instructions on how to do just that and links are in the show notes. You can always find out more by going to the church website, heavenearthchurch.org.

We want to thank you for spending time with us today. My name is Ross Stackhouse, the pastor of Heaven and Earth Church, and you may think out there that your story is over, but in fact, your faith story may just be beginning. If you want more information about our church or you're interested in the next step, you can go to heavenearthchurch.org. Otherwise, we look forward to being with you next time at the Heaven and Earth Church Podcast.