Jen shared her journey supporting a loved one through addiction, emphasizing the importance of community support and setting boundaries. She reflected on her past controlling behavior, expressing gratitude to her children for guiding her towards personal growth and strengthening her family. Jen and Joseph discussed the importance of accountability and making amends, highlighting the positive impact on family dynamics. Last, Jen discussed seeking family counseling with her husband highlighting it as a crucial part of their journey towards building a strong and lasting marriage.

About our Host:

Joseph B. Devlin, MA, CAADC, is a respected behavioral health expert with more than 20 years of experience in the specialty of Drug and Alcohol Recovery and Treatment. Joseph’s professional experience includes clinical director, interventionist, professor, facility director, addiction counselor, counseling supervisor, case manager, care manager, treatment facilities auditor, steward of county and state funding for treatment facilities, utilization reviewer and family group decision making facilitator. 

As an expert in the field of drug and alcohol addiction, not only has Joseph personally walked the path of sobriety, he has used his journey to freedom and his education to help others. Joseph is a Certified Advanced Alcohol and Drug Counselor in the State of Pennsylvania, has received a Masters degree in Restorative Practices and Youth Counseling from International Institute for Restorative Practices, as well as a BA in Psychology from University of North Carolina. Since then, he has become a licensed trainer in Restorative Practices. He also has obtained extensive training and experience in trauma-informed care, combined with a vast knowledge in community building with an expertise in substance use disorders, including co-occurring mental health issues.

Author of A Step Out of Darkness, Joseph also speaks to groups, while he coaches individuals and/or families who are interested in the road to recovery. Often the family is left in the dark in the middle of this epidemic. Where does the family member turn to? Joseph offers experience and knowledge to help you navigate through this chaotic struggle you are walking through.

Learn more about Joseph at https://josephbdevlin.com/

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Joseph B. Devlin: Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm your host, Joseph Devlin. And I am going to be speaking with Jen. Today she's going to be sharing her experience, strength and hope, and regard some of some of her family and their addiction and how she kind of worked through the process and things that she's done to keep herself safe, as well as the fires that she's had to fight. So let's get at it. Hey, Jen, welcome to the show.

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Joseph B. Devlin: It's absolutely it's a pleasure to be here. I appreciate you rearranging your schedule to be with us today. Because I know you have such valuable insight and great experiences to share in your in your open, you're vulnerable you love your willingness to share to help others is greatly appreciated. So thank you, Jen. Sure. So before we jump into some of the history, I just wonder, like for you and your family, like when things are going well, like what are some of the things that you guys like to do?

We like to spend time together just before we didn't want to spend time together. Outside, we watch our one, while we like to watch our kids do sports, we now have one, a younger one a 12 year old who is in softball, so we like to watch her play softball, you know, take walks, I wouldn't say watch movies, because I'm not a big movie watcher. But just spend time together and like enjoy each other. Because there was many times many years that we don't want to spend time together.

Joseph B. Devlin: Thank you. I love that. Right? Like there was times where we didn't want to spend time together. Yeah, we do.

it simple.

Joseph B. Devlin: It's like, wow, we can all eat dinner together. That's

great. Exactly. Exactly.

Joseph B. Devlin: Right. All right. So listen, I'm gonna jump in here and say like, Hey, listen, in within your family, like, when did you realize that like your loved one was struggling with an addiction? And how did that really initially impact you? And as well as like family dynamics.

So my loved one and I have been have known each other for 37 years. So when I first knew I, so I've known my loved one since I was 14. And I first found out probably when I was like 17. And I was downstairs in the basement of his house when he lived with his parents, and he wasn't there. So I remember going outside and like looking outside, like, Whoa, where is he? Sure enough to find him in his car doing a line of cocaine? And I was like, why is that? So I was like, oh, okay, that's, I didn't know we did that. I knew. I knew that he drank. And I knew that he drank a little bit too much for my taste. But I was like, Okay, maybe just had a bad day. But then when I saw that, I was like, Okay, quite shocked. So kind of red flags. But you know, I kind of just pushed on and thought I could fix them. And thought I could, you know, we could work through it. We could figure this out. It wasn't a big thing. And I was told like, I'm never going to do that again. Everything's okay. This was just a one time thing. And I didn't know anything about that. About Drugs. I knew about alcohol. I didn't know about drugs. So I was just like, oh, okay, and that just, you know, I just went along and then progressed, and progressed. I would say the drugs not so much did I see more of but the alcohol drinking, I saw a lot more of. So I would have to say that when was the first time when we were dating. But you know, you're in LA. I was in love and thought I could fix on thought everything would be okay. And you know, love would just change it and no, no.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yeah, the jet Thank you like, That's right. You see it. You say? You mentioned a couple times, hey, listen, we thought you could fix it. We thought that it could change you thought that okay, if it's just a one time thing, okay, that can you know, maybe that's, you know, that that'll stop and, you know, okay, the drinking might have increased, but you know, that'll all change. That's awesome. Yeah. So then, so this is like you said, as you're dating Steve Denning, you're coming along, and you guys end up getting married. Right? And

then getting married. And you're getting married. We go away on our honeymoon. Note we didn't. That wasn't that. We went away on a vacation. We went to Ocean City, Maryland. And we haven't been on a vacation since because I we haven't been on vacation alone since because I don't trust that. And the reason I don't trust that is we went away to Ocean City, Maryland. And it was every time we went every time we went to we were on the boardwalk. And I wanted a t shirt and he said you can have it too. Should if I go to the bar. So then it was, I'll go to the bar and you have a T shirt. So it was like, we would just go, he would get drunk. And I ended up going back to the hotel room with like a drunk guy. And I was like, Okay, well, that's stupid. So big, we get married. Within the first, I'd say the first nine months of our marriage, divorce, the D word was said more times than I ever thought it would ever be said the drinking took off. There was no money. The the jobs were, were continually changing. And then it was perceived that I needed to get a better paying job because the addiction was taking off the calling, he would call out of work, I would have to pick up the slack, we moved back to his parents house to save money. Because we couldn't afford our rent, we couldn't afford the car payments, move back to the parents house. Drinking kind of slowed down because mom and dad are seeing things move out on her own again, we buy a house, drinking takes off now, right? Because now we're on our own, like we've made it, drinking really takes off. We were married five years, and we have our first child. And I can honestly say I do not really remember the first year of my child's life, because I was so consumed by the drinking, by not by my drinking, but the drinking of what it was doing to my to my husband. Not to say that my child was not taken care of it was just I can't remember it. I did what I was supposed to do. But the that first year is like a blur to me because I was so sucked into the addiction. And it was a she was a year and a half old. And he came to me and said I need to go to rehab. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. So he went away to rehab and I get home, I'm home, as I call it stuck taking care of the bills, taking care of the house, taking care of the kid and growing a list of resentment. Because, you know, as I go visit him, he's now playing volleyball or he's playing baseball, and it looks like he's having a grand old time. And I'm like, What the hell's going on? You know,

Joseph B. Devlin: when you were saying that, and I appreciate you sharing this progression, like of how this how this comes about. And as you say, it's like, Hey, I was still in, what I hear you say is that like, Hey, listen, I was in this momentum. Like, I just kept going. I had a kid to take care of. So I kept taking care of him. I really don't remember it because I was so consumed with worrying about what he was doing. Where was this going? What's happening? And in the midst of this, right, a year and a half into, you know, your first child is like, okay, so he gets to go to rehab, you know, and then he goes, and then you go to visit him and he's playing softball, right? You're, you're at home with the bills and a year and a half, you know, yeah, yeah, you're old. And you're like, Okay, we've got to keep we got we got to just keep going. Yes. And that's hard. That's like, you know, how do you end up keeping your cool, I guess, in the midst of all of that, like, I don't even know if you can even remember how you end up doing? Like, that's

how do I keep my cool? Well, all I kept thinking was, you know, I took a marriage vow for a reason, like, and I grew up for myself, I grew up in a divorced family. So I did not want that for my kids. I didn't want that for my daughter at the time. And he promised me he kept saying, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to drink, I'm not going to drink. And I believed him every single time. And then, you know, he came home from rehab, and he was like, I need to do 90 and 90. I didn't understand what that meant. I had no idea I had not gone to recovery for myself. They had said when I was when we went there. I think it was living room was I forget which one I forget what rehab he went to. But the one read the first rehab, you went to, the nurse said to me, she says your marriage is like a stained glass window. It's like all beautiful, it's pretty. She's like now addiction came. And it's like a rock edit. And you can put that stained glass back together. You just have to kind of meld it or glue it. And I was like, I didn't understand what she said. And then she was like a new could potentially go to Al Anon and that could help you and I was like, like, go now and I'm like, I don't want to I don't know if that means to I don't have a problem. Like I don't. I'm not the one who's drinking tomorrow. I need to go. But I remember I'll never forget that woman saying that to me like that stained glass. So, you know, progressing on. He's like, I gotta go to meetings. I gotta go to meetings. And I'm like, Come on, man. Like, you're never home. You're supposed to be home. Like, you're now fixed. I thought you go to rehab, and you were fixed. I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know that. Alcoholism is a disease. I had no idea. I just thought I can remember saying to him if you love me, you will put the you will put the drink down. And then if you start and if you didn't quit drinking, I was like well then you just don't love me. You Still love me enough? So that was my distorted thinking. Yeah. Oh,

Joseph B. Devlin: Jen, thank you like, and it's this thing where he goes to he goes to treatment, there's so much in there, like he goes to treatment. And kind of when I take him, like, that woman said something to you that really impacted you that that stained glass analogy. I think that's great, right? Like, we either like kind of melt it back together, or we glue it or we do something, right. And one of the things I look at when it comes to like treatment, they're probably you weren't really invited to too much of like a family session or anything during that time. He's doing his thing, right? And you're kind of like, okay, it's gonna be great. And then you said, you like cable? He's supposed to be fixed, right? Because it goes to this thing. And I'm not doing any of this allanon

What are you talking about? I don't even know what that is. Exactly.

Joseph B. Devlin: And then he would come home or go 90 and 90, right? Like, no idea. This, like 90 meetings 90 days, but nobody's even told you that nobody's even communicated that to you. Right? Yep. Yep. So you're going off what he says, right?

I'm going off of what he says he's telling me he's okay, unbelieving him, I don't want my marriage to fail. Three years later, we have another child. And I'm like, Okay, we're doing this right. And I think I think I started then, like, I don't, I don't consider that my, my, like, my continual time, but I did start going then. But then I couldn't trust that when I would go to a meeting to an Al Anon meeting, I couldn't believe I couldn't trust that. I wouldn't, he wouldn't be passed out. Or I my kids would be safe, right. So like, I had no trust, I had no belief. So I put everything on me. Like, I have to be home in order to make sure that the kids are safe. I have to do this. I have to do this because he caught it. So in my mind, it was like, Okay, so we're, you know, we're family unit, half of the unit, the parent unit is down to the other half has to pick up. That's how I was brought up that way, though, like it's half of its down, the other half has to pick up. So if he was only putting in 10%, I was putting in 100%, to take off that 10% as well. So I always gave the most that I could. But then, you know, later on realizing like I really didn't need to, but that's further down the line. So we have, we have a second kid I started going to allanon I'm dabbling in it. He's continually drinking. He's getting some time here and there. He's getting maybe six months here. I do remember, there was a time it was a year, a full year and I was like, Oh my gosh, he's fixed. Yes. A full year sobriety, yes. workout or cure. It's great. No, it wasn't. Every time. He would every time he would get, you know, some time and a coin. I'd be like, okay, cool. But for me, I was always waiting for that shoe to fall. I was never in a calm state. Never. I was always in that fight or flight mode. And I hated it. I hated it so much.

Joseph B. Devlin: And just hearing that, like being in that fight or flight mode, like, even the weight, I could feel it in your voice. Like when you're saying it's like that weight that you were putting on it was like, even when he was so he's actively drinking, you know that, you know, like, I can't, can I be home? Can I not all these other things? I gotta do the 100% because he's got the 10% and then saying, okay, hey, look, now he's putting together six months here or a year here, but you're still putting the weight on himself to say like, I gotta carry this thing. Yeah, yes. Yep. And like you said, like, at the time, I didn't know that, that I didn't have to. Correct. Right. There was other ways around this or proceeding through this. Yep.

Because what I've learned is as much as somebody within it and in a an addiction, that you can physically see whether that be drugs, alcohol. I don't know what other what other addictions like a gambling, whatever else other addiction there is. You can see that. But the loved one for me, being the loved one, you couldn't see my addiction. Because my addiction was control. Anger. My biggest one was control. So if you did it my way, we were good. If you didn't do it my way. Well, then I had a temper tantrum. Right, because my way is the right way. So but, you know, as as the alcoholic has a bottle, I have all these other things. And I can specifically remember saying to him, he was on the deck. We were having a conversation and he had been in and out, you know the rooms and he was learning and giving it his best. And I said you know what, if you think that you're crazy, I'm more crazy than you'll ever be because of this addiction. Because for me when I look at someone who has an addiction to alcohol or drugs, I can see See that? You can't see. You can't see what the loved one goes through because a loved one doesn't think they're going through anything I didn't like I'm saying that the loved one I'm saying is me. I didn't think I was going to anything, right? Like, you have the problem. So you fix yourself. There's nothing wrong with me. And it's not until I now started going to Al Anon regularly. And I started going to Al Anon regularly because it was a Sunday night. And my husband said to me, you know, he keeps, he keeps saying, like, you know, this is a family disease, you need to go to Elena, it's a family disease. And I was like, Well, don't tell me what to do. Because you're the one with the problem. Like, don't you tell me what to do? Right? So he said, I'll tell you what, if you go to a meeting, I'll stop drinking. I was like, Oh, okay. So I went to a meeting that Sunday night, he did not stop drinking. But I did not stop going to Al Anon. So I had been an Al Anon now for 14 years steadily. March 27. Of 2010. Was my is my anniversary, my, my serenity date, if you will. So, Revelations,

Joseph B. Devlin: that's huge. Jen, that is huge. Yeah. Once

I started going, and I started listening to what the people in there say, and what they tell me to do, you know, I do it. And I got myself a really good sponsor. He, you know, he's, he's doing what he's doing. He's in and out. He's doing what he's doing. And now, but I'm not, I'm not as concerned with what he's doing. Right. So, in 2010, my oldest was 10. My middle was seven. Yeah, he's seven. And things aren't good with my husband. And I, you know, I'm like, Okay, we're doing what we're doing. But unlike, you know, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. Every time I keep thinking, you know, like, this is a marriage. This is marriage, this is a sickness, for better for worse, or sickness and health, rich or poor. I'm like, Okay, well, you know what, I'm kind of getting tired of this. So I start thinking about it. And, you know, I say to my sponsor, how do I know? How do I know when when the time is, and I may not want to do this anymore. And she just keeps telling me, you'll know when the time's right. And I'm like, okay, all right, whatever. Never when am I told anything in allanon of what to do? Nobody ever tells me what to do. They just listen, and they share their experience, strength and hope. Which is great, because I don't do well with somebody telling me what to do. So it's now you know, 20 in 2010, I've had my fill and I'm making a decision. Like, I got two hands. I got two kids. I don't need them anymore. So I'm like, Okay, I'm, we're gonna we're gonna get divorced. And I find out I'm pregnant for the third time. So I remember looking skirt straight up in the sky. And I'm like, okay, and I have a you know, I had a complex with a higher power because I grew up with a condemning God. Like, if you don't do this, God's gonna punish you. Right? If you don't do that, God's gonna punish you. So but in the rooms of allanon I find out that you know, something greater than me and for me, that's like, the chair. That's the clouds that's whatever this whatever the spirit moves me. So for me, my like my greater than what I do now, my greater than is like what I see out in the universe. So I call my universe the universe is like something greater than me. So that's what I call and that's almost like my higher power, but it's what I rely on. So I find out that I'm pregnant and I look up in the sky like seriously, like, I guess I'm not getting divorced because I don't have a job because I'm staying home raising my kids. I don't have benefits because I'm staying home raising my kids. So I'm stuck. I'm like legit stuck. And you know, he knew too that we weren't we pretty much weren't going to be we weren't going to make it and then I tell them Well, I'm pregnant. Man I'll never forget the color on his face is like as white as white is Casper ghost. It went completely white like, right. And we have now we have three healthy children she was my third is she when she knows that she's the reason that her father and I are still together because we both believe that his higher power my higher power are greater than brought brought her here to keep us together. And she's like, part of my story. And I think he is part of his story. I'm not sure because I never really heard his full story but so here we are, like, I go to Al Anon. He does what he needs to do. I mend my relationships because my relationships with my older two children were not good. Because in the midst of parenting them with an alcoholic husband, I'm not a nice mom. So you know my by the grace of goodness, my youngest has never seen her father do Hank has an ever she sees me crazy, because you know, I don't think my craziness is ever going to go away. But I'm crazy in a better way.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yes, yes.

So now he, you know he, he's going into meetings, he is trying to stay sober. And we're, you know, we're doing our thing. And I can sense things aren't right. And I can feel the shoes starting to fall again. I just don't trust but you know, for me, I was always told trust to trust your gut, right. And I would never really trust my gut. But people in the Al and Al Anon rooms were telling me just trust your gut nine times out of 10. You're right. And so there was this one day, and it was December 19 2017. I decided I needed to stay home from work, because I needed to wrap Christmas gifts. And I go into our crawlspace. And there's a bottle. He told me he was sober. And there was a bottle and the calmness, I was like, Okay, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. And what scared me the most out of all, that was the calmness that I felt. Because it was, I wasn't mad, I wasn't sad, I wasn't upset, I was done. I wasn't going to let addiction do this to me anymore. And if that meant that I had to leave my marriage because of the addiction, then the addiction was going to run his life, but it was not going to run mine. So I called friends in the fellowship. And we went and spent that Christmas with my mom, my three kids and I, which was not fun, but you know, it is what it is. And then we were separated for five months. And I told him, I said, if you want this to work, you have to get sober. And if you decide that drinking is what you want to do, then we will have will have divorced paper signed up because I will not live that life anymore. And I stand behind that now. And he knows I stand behind that. And that, for me was you know, I nothing changes. If nothing changes, right? I'm not going to if I don't, if I don't make a change, I'm going to keep living the same. I'm gonna keep living the same life. But Al Anon taught me that. You know, I don't have to dance the dance. And I don't have to accept unacceptable behavior. And for me, that was unacceptable behavior. So here we are. That was six years ago. We do have our struggles. But, you know, it's just like, it's just it's just life struggles. Now. It's like, you know, what, are you making dinner tonight? Yeah, you know, like, we still have our bigger struggles too. But do we fight? Yeah, we still fight. Because we're still human. We still have, we still have a lot to work through. Because I got a lot of baggage. He's got a lot of baggage. But he works on himself. I work on myself, and then we work on ourselves together. So

Joseph B. Devlin: Jen, that's amazing. Oh, Jen, oh, so much. There's so much there. Like, you're just taking me to the place like, you know, you're you stay at home, you have this intuition to say, you know, a find this bottle, but you're saying, Hey, you have this piece, and you have this car? It's not what you want it? Yeah, but you knew that in the midst of that it wasn't like you were going to get pulled into that chaos again, that you had been living in and that, that, you know, where you had felt the weight of being the 100? You know, to the 100% all the time. Yep. And you were like, no. Okay. And, and you had a community. And, and, and that's what I'm thinking like, over this time. You know, from, from even the time that you knew that you were going to have your third child. Like you, there were things that you had kept putting in place to get up to this point, like building that community out. Right, that you had people on that day to call? Yes. And you were open to listen to what they had to say. Yep.

And people, I had people from the program he would go to and I had people from the program of my program. So all the while that, you know, and all the while that he is trying to get sober. We're going to events and his his fellowship becomes my fellowship. Because if he's there, I want to be there and I want to know who's chatting with and he wants to and he wants people to know who I am. So they become like my friend, right? And I become their friend and then I'm an Al Anon and I have my friends and they know him and he knows them. So it's like, we might be to fellowship programs, but in the end, we're all one together. We're all big one fan. Emilie, because we all are looking to recover however we can, in a healthy way. Yeah, yeah.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yeah. And in a healthy way and healthy way, you know, can look so different to so many looks like and that's, that's the beauty of it, but it's, it's this community that wants the best for you and wants the best for him, you know, like, and it's like, hey, sometimes there's got to be these tough things because, you know, nobody said it like that separation point. Who knew what was going to happen? Correct. Nobody wanted to be away from each other on Christmas. You know, and you have these three children in the midst of it going, Okay, what do we do? What how do we do this, but, okay, we're going to move, we're going to, we're gonna move forward. We're gonna set up a, like a boundary, like, this is not acceptable behavior. We've got to deal with this. Right? And to be able to be straightforward with him and to say, you need to choose, do you want to be sober? Or do you want to drink? But that's his thing. And, you know, and this had been, you know, you've been walking this journey with him for years. Yeah. Years. Yep. And you're just like, No. Like, and and now the balls in his court? It's not exactly. It's not you have to control it. It's not you have to, it's like, Okay, I'm gonna do what I need to do. Because I've learned, you know, through people talking with people. You mentioned earlier on like that, that addiction to anger and control. Right, like, and some of it, we can go down, man, we could spend hours talking about this, like, how much of that was partly from childhood, partly from the relationship partly from who you are, biologically, you know, what I mean? Like, whatever is just running through you. And, but you're saying, Hey, listen, I'm gonna look at those things. Because, you know, this, this addiction thing, you know, is, it's now in me, because I'm living with this person who has an addiction, these other things are coming out in me like, big time, you are willing to say, Hey, listen, I'm going to take a look at those because I don't want those anymore. And it's so it's so hard for for folks to I mean, I really appreciate you sharing that, because it's so hard for folks to really look at that. Because like you said, with an addict, you see it because it's alcohol, drugs, food, sex, whatever it is, like, you can just see you you see the tangible thing, but when it is the other side of things, when it's like when it is the or the control, it's kind of harder to see what's really going up. Right, as well. So I There's so much I really want to go with, and I just kind of went off on a tangent. So my bad on my part. No, you're good. But I think it's like, Jen, you're not the only one out there who goes through this. I can't tell you how many times I've talked with people and they say, You know what, it wasn't until like, really, I was beat looking at myself and what was going on in this space that it was able for, for you to get better like that individual to get better. And which really provided the assistance to help the other person get better, right? Because I every person I ever speak to in addiction always tells me that they surrounded themselves with people that they knew would allow them to fester the addiction. And what do we do we gravitate towards people who, you know, who would allow us to kind of do that, when you were like, no, like, this is not going to happen anymore. And it's Hey, you love him? You weren't screaming and yelling at him? Well, you know, like, it was like, Hey, you had some peace about that. And that's, that's, uh, yeah, that

was a moment that I was. Whoa. It was a scary moment. It was a life changing decision I was making. I was like, filled in. Okay. Yeah.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yeah. I mean, I think about the mental, the physical and the spiritual, always addressing this for somebody who has an addiction to change. But for me as a human being to change, right, I believe that I'm made up in these three, these three parts. And you talked about it, right? Like there was, there was the gift of your daughter, right? You know, there's the there's the mental part of you're saying to yourself, hey, listen, I'm not going to kind of do this anymore. I'm not going to have to be the one to carry the whole thing or I can control everything or you know, because it was it was thrust upon you. You had to do it in order to make things go. Exactly. You know, and I'm thinking like, I know, we've talked about twice, because I'm a big proponent of communities. So we have to get connected with the communities we want. That's the only way to really think and you would mention that, hey, they don't tell you what to do, and give you some options and people to talk about because you get to make your own choices. Is there other things that you think of it like kind of helps you just, I want to say get healthy, but like just for you to be an outlet or grounded or things that were successful because you've done a lot of a lot of work, Jim, we're most people would rather say, Hey, man, it's that dudes problem you should get out. Like he's got, right nobody else's problem. Well,

I think for me, because I came from a divorced family, I, again, I didn't want that for my I didn't want that for my kids. Because I didn't like being shuffled back and forth to my parents. I didn't like hearing from my dad that my mom was this are from my mom that my dad was that and I was also brought up in, I was also brought up in alcohol. So since I was two, that's all I knew is alcohol. So to say that I was destined to marry an alcoholic? I don't know. But it was comfortable for me. Like, that's all I knew my dad, my aunt, my uncle's, my grandparents. Like, that's what it was. And then, so for me, I had to go backwards to figure out why am I like this? Why did I Why do I think this way? So I like to know, like, I like to go back and think. So when I go back and think my mom's way of doing things is he has the problem. Get rid of him, you don't have a problem? Well, that didn't make sense to me, because I'm like, Well, you got rid of two because she married another she married another gentleman and had two kids with him. But she's still the same person. So I had to look at, well, my grandmother had gone to Al Anon and God rest her soul. I love that woman like nobody's business. And she was a she was she was, she told me that she went to Al Anon, because her her sons were alcoholic, and my grandfather was an alcoholic. And that was so helpful for me so helpful. And emotional, because I can remember telling her when my husband went away for the first time, she's like, What are you crying for? He's gonna get help. And I was like, Oh, okay. You know, because the society says, like, there's such a stigma, like, he's an alcoholic, you know, he's like, he's like a bottom feeder. He's drinking out of a bottle or Brahma, you know, like, you know, I don't like to hear I don't like it when people say like, oh, and he's a functioning alcoholic. I don't know what the hell a functioning alcoholic is like. You're an alcoholic, because you're, you're addicted to alcohol, you have an allergy to this, like, whether you're functioning or non functioning. You have you have a spiritual malady, you have a disease, and

Joseph B. Devlin: you're causing chaos. Exactly. You're causing chaos, because

this disease is causing chaos, and you don't have a control on it, because you don't know what to do with yourself. And my disease would would would attack me that way. Because I was controlling, I was demanding, I was arranged all like I was, I was crazy. Because that's how I was brought up. I was brought up to do that, like, you do what I do, and you're going to be okay. But I was like, No, I can't do that. So honestly, what helped ground me is listening to my children and making amends to my children every single time, I did something wrong. I made an amends to my kids. And my sponsor said that to me, the best thing you can do is just make an amends to your kids and let them know that mom makes mistakes, and let them know every single day that you love them. And I did it. And I was like, here I go again, I'm making another damn amends to you. But I'm wrong. And I, I am literal. When I say this. Like I don't say I'm sorry. If I hit you like we bumped into each other Oh, I'm sorry. But if I have wronged somebody, and I know that I've wronged somebody, I say I was wrong. And I literally go through the way to make an amends. I do that every single time. And I have taught my children that my husband and I have not taught our kids how to do that. And it's like, we don't say we're sorry. Because sorry, are just words. When you amend when you make an amends, you're changing your conflict for me. I am consciously changing my behavior because I'm saying I'm wrong. Right? The society out in that world doesn't get that they don't get it because they don't want to get it. I don't want to be the batshit crazy person that I was. I mean, I'll be okay. I'm okay being a crazy person. But sometimes I go there, sometimes I do. I'm human. And sometimes I have to be reeled back. But you know, my kids were my biggest my biggest teacher. To this day. I say, especially my son, my older two. I was not a good mom to them. My anger took over my control took over and I was not I was not a good healthy mother to them. My daughter moved you know, she she doesn't, she doesn't live in the area anymore. My son and I we went through a lot and We have an amazing relationship now. And I tell my kids all the time, you are the reason I'm a good mom, or you are the reason I'm a better human, because I tell them all the time, call me out. If I'm doing something I don't know that I'm doing call me out, let me know that I'm doing this. Like, I, if I don't see it, I can't change it. And my other big thing was like, I'm not that person that I used to be. But if you could give me the chance to show you. And they do, every time they show up, and they let me do it. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's amazing. Amazing.

Joseph B. Devlin: I must say that it's just amazing. Like just being able to say, Hey, listen, I was wrong to my children. Yeah, that is that is just teaches them a lifelong lesson teaches you a lifelong lesson. Thank you so much for sharing that piece. Because, like, you know, you're an awesome mom. And I appreciate you share the struggles you had because right, like we're human, nobody gave us a book with this thing. No. And it's like, I'm gonna get better through this. And, and you're modeling. That's your kids? Yeah.

Let's like, for example, my youngest, she just, she just had an issue with one of her friends. And I said, you know, we talked it out, she found out where she was wrong. And you know, she, I took her to her girlfriend's house, and she made amends to her girlfriends and ended parents. And I was like, you know, you owe that to the parents too, because, and you could, I could see the weight on her. And now she's just 12. And I could see that weight on her. And then after she did what she did, and made amends and made the her wrong, right. She was skipping outside of the house. And I was like, Oh, you feel good now, huh? Yeah, yeah.

Joseph B. Devlin: What would a freedom like? I think like addiction, put us in hiding. Addiction puts families in hiding. And this piece this one piece of many of all this addiction gives your daughter this freedom on that day, because we learned to make amends to one another, and to parents, you know, like, hurt my friend. But I owe it to their parents. And, and now she's not carrying around that weight.

Exactly. Exactly.

Joseph B. Devlin: So good. Yep, that is so good. Oh, so I can talk, we're definitely have to come back on by the way. So if I can take this back around just to like your husband, right, like so you put those things you guys are separated for about five months, right? And then what were the signs that you saw that okay, things were getting better. And hey, we can want to give this thing another go. So, um, while we're giving it a go the whole time, by the way.

So we even though we were separated, you know, we have three kids, I would I would talk to them. And I've spaced myself out when I've talked to him. And I felt safer talking to him on the phone and I would really let them have it on the phone. So I saw him face to face. I would like kind of cower back. They really didn't have my full confidence in me because I was like, I really shouldn't do this, but I should do this. And you know, like then I was second guessing myself. But

Joseph B. Devlin: the boundary though, right? It's like, Hey, listen, we're gonna do this. I'll do it on the phone. I'm still gonna connect with you. I still love you. But I know for myself that if I'm there, that's so important. Right when I'm there. Okay, okay. Exactly.

Yep. Yep. So we, you know, he, he did his thing. And I started looking for an addiction counselor. And I said, if we want to, I said, I don't want to throw the talent. So I'm willing to do this. But I need to make sure that you're willing to do this too. And he was like, Yeah, I'll do whatever you want. And I was like, Okay, you need to make sure that you're doing this for the right reason not just to get back in here like not just to get back in the house. So I found her, I found ourselves in a ditch a counselor and I said, I'm specifically getting an addiction counselor, because I'm done. I'm not putting this under the rug anymore. We're going to address issues. And we did, I found someone who's very close to, like, close in our surroundings. And we were going and we, to this day, we continue to go we go. I think we were going monthly every six weeks. We've tried to different counselor for like relationships. But we stuck with this person. This person knows us very well. It is for us. We so we've been doing this for six years now. And we still go and it's we both agree that this is like our safe place. So like, some weeks he's okay. A lot of the weeks I'm not okay. But we both have agreed that we can bring it to the counselors and therapists office and it's a safe place. He can say what he needs to say. I can say what I need to say. There's a third person to hear what we're saying. This person will call me out when I'm wrong. This person will call him out when he's wrong, this person will say, Well wait, that's not how I hear it will give us another bird's eye view. And it, you know, we come out of there, I, I've cried in there i f bombed in their surprise, I have listened, I've learned so much about my husband, you know, because as much as, as I am a control anger person, he I found out like he's afraid, he was afraid to say stuff to me. So I have to be willing to hear that, like, I want my marriage to work, I want to, you know, be at the end of life with him. So if I'm gonna, if I want to do that, I have to hear what he has to say. And it's not all him, it's me too. Because I come with my baggage, he comes with his baggage, and we work, you know, I have my own brain, he has his own brain and, and always meld. So it's definitely a safe place. So that is something that's very, very good for us. Did we back off a little bit? We did. But we continue to go. And what's even cooler is my kids go now my older to go to this person. So this person obviously does not share what is said in individual hearing, you know, individual illness. But I think it's good because this person hears all four of us and probably gets the biggest picture of it all and probably like, oh, that you know, she hears it all. Yeah. Which is good. So my daughter gets to air out whatever she's going through my son. And then we have had family counseling maybe once or twice, you know, not too much. But we're open. Like, if our kids need to say anything to us, they know like mom's not gonna fly off the handle, because that's what mom usually does on the reactor. Or my husband is more like the calm, cool, collected kind of guy on the one. But they can come to us now and they're, you know, it's like, we I listen, I hear what they have to say. We listen, we you know, do you want my opinion? Do you? I don't give it to them. Like I asked now. Do you want my opinion? And I don't? If they say yeah, then they know they're getting my opinion. There's no fluff. There's no roses, it's you're gonna get the hard truth. Because if I if I'm gonna fluff it for you. But what am I doing? Why am I even giving you anything? Yeah,

Joseph B. Devlin: right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, but you asked like, that's such a rich question. Right? Yeah. Okay, if you don't. But thanks for sharing. Thank you. They trust you enough to come and share that with you. And that's good. And is so good that like sharing that, hey, listen, cash, went to a counselor together. And it became you guys decided that that was going to be your safe place. And as that grew over the years, yes, you may have dissipated in the amount of times that you're going there. But it was a place that your kids then said, Hey, this would be a safe place for me to go. And I can kind of do what I need to do. Right. So I mean, that's just like that additional, additional support. And yes, I like families to me, like we're the fabric of society. And it's and as as what you're doing like it like, right, it shouldn't surprise anybody that your youngest daughter is going to make amends to their friend and their family. Because right, it's part of society. That's part of the community that we're we want to live and we want to change it. And it's because of the work you guys did. That's beautiful. Yeah.

I mean, never in a million years when my mom say to me, you would wrong, somebody go make it go tell them that you're sorry. And don't forget to apologize to the parents. I wouldn't ever been told that maybe like, What are you talking about? No, why? And I don't just do that with my youngest. I did that with each one of my kids, because it was, you know, you don't I always say to my kids, I got 18 years, right? I got you for 18 years, and I gotta teach you everything in that 18 years. Once you turn 18 something happens to you know, your state, like, I can't protect you anymore, right? But my job is to show you or to be an example to you how to give back to the community. Don't take don't give back to society don't take from society. There are people who take from society, okay, and hopefully they get their help, but hopefully I can show them that, you know, give back don't take, right. People make mistakes. Of course, we all make mistakes. And you know, some people take from society for a little bit and they get back later on. But you know, we're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. So Oh, yeah. Everyone's been okay. So far.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yes, absolutely. And really to, again, this is going to be great to talk with you again, but it's like you know, things were If you and your husband you guys are together to get today, you know? And hey, you guys are still working towards things like we all are, you know, the relationship that you have with your kids today? Hey, yeah, there was so mending of fences that needed to happen, but you have that relationship where they trust you enough to say, hey, here's what's going on with my Yes, I want your opinion, even though they probably don't want to hear it, but they know what will be the truth. Right? That's what they need to hear.

Yes, yes. And I'm not meddling. I don't really metal anymore. And before I'd be like, What are you doing? Who you talking to? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Wait, I don't do that anymore. Right. So like, if my son's in his room, I'll knock on the door. Hey, how was your day? Okay, all right, cool. You need I think, nope. All right, and I just don't do right. He's gonna do what he's gonna do. For me. I had to stop involving myself in everybody's life thinking i My way was the right way. So I had to trust that if I have something greater than me, higher power, whatever you want to call it, right? If there's something greater for me, then there's something greater for them, too. They all have their own. And I would talk to another friend, and she would always say to me, do you want to write your kids story? Or do you want your kids to write their story? And that resonated with me a lot? And I'm like, Well, I don't think I wrote a very good story for myself. So probably, I should kind of back off and let them write their story, and just sit back and watch. And just be like, hey, you know what, you did a good job. Because I do that now. And I say that to my I say that to my oldest, like I said her, and I did not have the best relationship and we're getting better. And I tell her, and she tells she tells me she's like, You didn't tell me that you were proud of me when I was a kid. And I said, Oh, well, I'm proud of you. And now like, I hear that. And I know that. And so I reached out to her every so often, hey, just thinking of you. How are you? I'm really proud of what you're doing. You know, you're doing a great job working on yourself, you know, you're doing it, you're doing it. Or in the same thing with my son, like, you know, he said the same thing. He's like, Mommy never really said it. And I'm like, wow, you know, when I said to him, like, for me, I don't want you to be defined by what I think of you, I want you to figure out what you think of you. But that's my thoughts. Their thoughts are, I want to hear that my mom's proud of me. Okay, I can tell you, I'm proud of you. I can also tell you, I'm not proud of you to write. So there's not many times I'm not that proud of my kids, but it's that open communication that they give me and I wouldn't have that. If I wasn't getting healthier for myself. Because I mean, I like I'm getting healthier for myself. Why? Because of addiction. Right? Because I want I don't want, you know, they say they say in Al Anon, like, the disease of addiction is it's like a chain. It's a link. It's a family. It's a family illness. And I remember saying in the rooms, like, I am literally going to break this chain of addiction in my family, my kit, I'm coming to these rooms. So I break this chain. So my children do not have to do what I have done. Right. Like it's awful. It's awful. I with every fiber of my being I hate addiction. I hate it. But it is what it is.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yeah. And, and you have broken, you know, I mean, you have broken that chain of addiction because it is the thing that will change generations for your family. Right? Yep. And, and so good. So good. I just want to say is I so appreciate you sharing, really just beat your vulnerability to share your experience with the things that you've gone through just that the hope that you provide other people and just the the wave count about doing things like to to help yourself like you said, you're helping yourself get better so that you can break the chain of, of addiction for your, for your generations for your family lineage.

Right? Yeah. Yep. And in doing so, I found out that like, I love to bake, right like I I never did anything for myself, because why would I do for myself when I have to do for everybody else, right? So I find out that I love to bake I love to crochet. I now journal because it's easier if I journal it's easier to write things down like the pen to paper kind of thing. I don't do it as much as I would like to, but I do it. I'm a big person of like, I'm a big person of nature and signs. So I see hearts everywhere. And when people see hearts, they think of me which is even better, because I'm gonna go what people think of me that doesn't work. We were at the softball field last night and my my daughter looks down. She was like Mom, look at the rock. And I was like, oh, it's like legit and the shape of a heart. She's like, Mom, it's your rock. And I'm like, Oh, it is she's like, Oh my God. I wouldn't be like this. I wouldn't be open to seeing things. If I didn't put the work in and if I didn't have I wasn't willing to see my part and what's going on. So, and I'll happy happy to say in September, my husband and I will be 29 years married. Wow, that's awesome. I know each other yet I should say he hasn't killed me yet.

Joseph B. Devlin: Yeah. Oh, it's so good. 29 years. That is just,

I know.

Joseph B. Devlin: I mean, that's crazy. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, God bless you. I love it. And I do want to say to like, thanks for sharing some of those things that you did for yourself. Right? You know, those things of bacon and writing and looking for hearts. And now people remind you, like, remember you as the person with the heart? You know what I mean? Like, that's beautiful. Yeah. And I know that, that that all contributes to that. 29 years of marriage like, yes. Awesome. Good. Yep. Well, listen, I again, I thank you so much. And I think I've gotten a commitment twice from you that you will come back. We will be absolutely, yes. Okay, you got it. Yeah. And I don't mean to put you on the spot. Is there anything else you'd want to say to anybody? You've said a ton. And there is so much? Yeah,

um, just, you know, don't give up on yourself. And don't give up on the hope. Because it's tough. Like, when I walked into the rooms of Al Anon, I wasn't like skipping to my Lu and all happy, I was pretty down in my dumps and cry in and the first few meetings, you know, you know, when life takes when life takes me down, when life was taking me down, I was like, Why do I would come here. But for me, allanon helped me tremendously. Because it made me feel like I wasn't on an island by myself. I there was like a walked in, I walked into the rooms and that people were smiling. And I was like, What is this? Like? Is this a coat? And no, it's not a cold, people just want to genuinely see you happy. And there's more to life than just addiction. And if that means that you if that means that somebody lives with active addiction, but just changes their way, or if somebody decides that they don't want to be in addiction, just that there's hope there really is hope. And it's not. It sucks at the moment, but but there's, there's a ray of sunshine on the other side. So So I learned to, you know, like, you got to walk through the pain. It's painful. It's an easy for me. allanon It's a simple, it's a simple program, but it's hard work. And if I'm and I was willing, and I'm still willing to put that hard work in, because life does not have to be so hard. It really doesn't. So that's all I

Joseph B. Devlin: said, Thank you so much. You've in this just talking with you, you've really shared so many things that gives people that hope beyond this addiction. There's so many things that people can pull from this. And I just, I thank you for that gift, you know for for those, you know, for those who are listening today, I just thank you for being here with us. And I'm gonna encourage you please subscribe, like, it just increases the algorithm so that actually Jen's message gets out to even more people, because I know it this is going to be impactful and helpful to so many people. Yep. So folks, until our next episode, I just Just always remember that sobriety is a family affair.