"You're the crazy guy who wants double glazing in everything." 

That's what Justin heard throughout his early career when he pushed for high-performance building standards that seemed unnecessary to most. Twenty years later, those "crazy" ideas have become industry benchmarks. We sat down with Justin to understand his journey from a 12-year-old working in his mum's shed to becoming a leading voice in sustainable construction.

Today, Justin continues consulting and advising on construction technology through his work at Performance Membranes. His goal remains straightforward: sharing accumulated knowledge so others can access the details needed for safe, quality construction. It's not just about individual projects - it's about elevating industry standards.

LINKS:

Performance Membranes

Connect with us on Instagram:   @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

Justin, you spent years building, physically constructing

the spaces people inhabit.

What was the most profound frustration you have experienced in that hands-on

building process that ultimately led you to believe the industry needed

something fundamentally different?

Something like the membrane union now champion.

Well, what a doozy to open this.

this

Yeah.

Okie dokey.

That's like a, and, and full disclosure, we did not tell Justin that we were gonna

answer this question, but I knew that the question was gonna be answered, asked.

That's that.

A full

lot, isn't that?

But it also, every, it encompasses everything that you've done

probably in the last, what, 20, 30 years of your building journey.

Yeah.

So we are gonna get to the an that answer, I think over the

course of this podcast episode.

Could

you maybe just start off by telling people who you are

of things?

Yeah.

So I started, tinkering in my downstairs shed at mum's,

at the age of 12, I believe.

So my older brother stealing your brother's tools.

My older brother, five years older.

Started a carpentry and joinery apprenticeship at the time with

the state government, uh, when they used to build their own homes.

Uh, yeah.

So yeah, just building furniture for mum, to, to put in, you know, the

lounge room and that sort of thing.

I used to love working with hand tools and I used to steal my brothers.

Yeah.

He didn't like it too much 'cause he was five years older, so I was fighting.

But yeah.

And then he went off and worked in a genre shop and, I used to work with him, yeah.

For, for his boss.

Yeah.

Every single school holiday from high school

What were you like at school?

Were you like academic at school?

I guess I did.

Okay.

Yeah.

Had, you know, quite a few outstanding achievements mm-hmm.

If they still called that these days.

Sure.

It weird that you went into a trade?

Were you sort of, I, that's what I was getting.

Yeah.

You, you marked as like the academic, you should be going to uni type.

I always thought that my dad.

Would've liked that.

Mm-hmm.

And was a little bit disappointed.

He's definitely not now.

Maybe I just thought that, I never asked him.

Um, but I did think that he was a little bit disappointed that I didn't

further my education, because of that.

At, at

tertiary level.

Yeah.

And

into uni.

'cause I had quite good grades.

My brother did as well.

Yeah.

And he left at grade 10.

I left at grade 10.

Yeah.

And went into a trade and I guess.

From that we've both been successful in our own way.

I guess you know what's

really interesting about that comment is, is there is still this kind of stigma

around that you are intelligent or you are, you are less intelligent if you

choose a trade over tertiary education.

I feel it's changing a bit now,

but I think COVID helped because people saw during COVID that like

they're still working, they're earning very good money, their job is safe.

Just, I guess the point I was trying to make is that like, even like

watching you sort of tell that story just then there's, there's this, I

guess, almost a justification of, alright, well I dropped outta school

and then maybe dad wasn't as, you know, proud of me for maybe not finishing

school and then gonna university.

Like there's actually nothing wrong with it.

I mean, it's such a small moment in our life where the.

In your, you know, late teens, early twenties of when you decide to either stay

at school and go to university or not.

That's what, four or five years of your life out of however many years.

Such a small part that everyone focuses so much on and they judge you

on the decisions that you make then.

Mm-hmm.

And

you're like 18, 19 too.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So anyway, so digressing.

Yeah, I

guess, I mean, I know how you judge success, you know, if

it's via financial, financial.

Successful.

It's a good path to go down.

Yeah.

You know, I, I bought my first house at 21.

Yeah.

Wow.

Um, I bought a brand new car when I was 18.

Yeah.

Um, you know, there's all those things obviously with the bank, but

I was able to, and I saved a lot.

I imagine a 21-year-old at the moment would just.

That's, I mean, not impossible unless mom and daddy chop you out.

Yeah.

We were a bit behind, obviously I'm from Tasmania and from Hobart and we

were a bit behind, well, by the way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

My wife's hasn't actually, she had an operation on an neck, but it's

like, it's a, it's a good joke.

Um, Um

yeah, so, you know, we were really, our property market, we were, no, no one knew

about Tasmania, and it was only until about 2004, 2005, the property market.

exploded.

Yeah.

Um, and you know, it opened up to mainland Australia and Yeah.

Rangelands were born everywhere.

I love Hobart.

It's, I think it's the most untapped place in Australia.

Oh,

Tasie.

Oh.

Like, I, I've been down to Tasie probably three or four times this year and Great.

It's amazing.

It's

great whiskey, it's amazing.

Great food, great people.

People just love it.

It's freezing down there, eh?

It's really, it's nice.

It's one or two degrees cooler than Melbourne.

Yeah.

But it's, it's a different cold.

It's not, it's like a nice cold.

It's a cold.

You can still walk around in and during the day.

Where you come to Melbourne, it's windy.

It's rainy, it's blowy like it's, it's like, it's nice you put

your jacket on and go for a look.

Nice.

A really nice connection in nature there.

But look, so, so 12 years old you start tinkering and then you at in year 10.

So 1516, you'd started after your apprenticeship?

Yeah, so I started in

major construction.

So I started with a, a really big commercial builder.

It was Fletcher Construction.

Do you remember,

do you remember your first day on the job site?

It was scary being on a major construction site back there.

We had like FCO cranes, we call 'em tower cranes and yeah, we,

our laborers used to drive them.

So the laborers employed by the company and were crane drivers.

Oh.

So, and they were open ticket scaffolders.

They did everything.

But you know, I used to call that greasing the apprentice, like

it used to have, it was rife.

They'd tape up apprentices in wheelbarrows and wheel 'em mountain to the mall in the

city and hooked up one of the apprentices, my apprentices, Mike, it was my age.

I'm laughing.

And they hooked him up with, from his nail belt with the, with the crane.

Like they've just brought it down.

And then the other laborers hooked him up and then they've lifted him

like 30 centimeters off the ground.

And we went to morning tea.

tea.

This is,

I dunno why I still find it funny.

Like I've got six sense of humor.

It's not okay.

It's not okay.

Um, uh,

it's not okay.

I mean, yeah, I guess it's amusing, but like, I guess just

the, like that's traumatic.

It's.

It's

Like, do you still play with your parents?

Like go get you the left hand hammer or left hand screwdriver?

Do you play the game of like, I don't have time for that anymore,

mate?

No, no, I used to and yeah, like that's harmless fun.

Yeah, of course.

But that's sort of like when you can actually physically

hurt someone, it's not okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think

physically and mentally as well.

I mean, yeah, there's a mental health's a big thing these days.

It is, yeah.

digressing a little bit.

So, yeah.

Hm.

Construction.

And you were in construction for 25 years?

Yeah, so I started my carpentry and joinery apprenticeship, We

were lucky enough to have both.

Yeah.

So I qualified in both areas.

Feel like

joinery probably like suits your personality like that,

but I, for real fine detail.

Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah.

Obviously

going back to the furniture when I was 13.

Yeah.

that was 1995.

I started, yeah, right.

16 year nine five when won, won the last grand final.

We're still holding onto it.

Yeah, so I stayed there for quite a while, but I didn't like it.

Um, yeah.

You

didn't like building or,

I didn't like major construction.

Okay.

I didn't like the personalities.

Back then on site, there was thefts of tools at lunchtime, you know,

all that sort of dynamic and, you know, there was some pretty

brutal type of people on site Yeah.

In those major jobs.

And it just, I didn't like it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I got my trade and worked with that company for a while, another year and,

and then, yeah, got my marching orders and thought, okay, so I got my A BN Yep.

And gave him a notice.

Because I had three months notice.

Yeah.

And I said, no, I've got a job.

I'm leaving.

That was within five days, and I turned back up on that same site for one of

the subcontractors to our principal.

And started working on contract and it was like, yes, it was the best.

So you can now dictate what you wanted and push around.

Yeah.

It's like, it's like I'm the boss now that sacked me and then I

turned back up on their site on any heaps more money as a contractor.

I didn't, didn't stay there that long.

It was just a gap.

And then I got a contracting job with a really fastidious.

Residential builder.

Yeah.

Really pushing the boundaries.

That was a long time ago in pushing the boundaries.

In what way?

Using alternate products.

Not alternate as we look at it today, but yeah.

Obviously we are talking about double glazed windows, thermally,

broken aluminum frames and, and

we are going back what,

Uh, as 2000.

Two.

Yep.

So, I mean, that stuff back then is pretty innovative.

I mean, it, it's, it's not innovative now, but like in

context he was looked at as next.

Yeah.

You

know, just the things we were doing with insulation.

But how did you read on this?

Because back then there was not like the internet was developing.

Like where were you resourcing?

Like, um, the encyclopedia, like that's, well

obviously this came from the guy I worked for.

And he was innovative.

European, no, really.

But he, the people we associated with, had products that were innovative.

Yeah.

And they were doing a lot of research, outside Australia and they were doing

a lot of trips outside of Australia.

Yeah.

Especi in the glazing space.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was that sort of, sort of got my interest and realized that, well,

hey, it actually makes a difference.

Yeah.

This installation and double glazed windows, he was looked at as nuts.

Yeah, absolutely.

nuts.

Why would you pay four times the price for a window?

Sometimes five times the price.

Yeah.

When I can just get it for this price.

The crazy.

What's the difference?

It's only one extra layer of glass.

Most of these units still fit too.

Like, like

Yeah.

So I don't understand why it was ever four times the amount where it's just like

we're just adding an extra bit of glass.

Well, I mean it is now.

Yeah.

It's like,

you know, probably not even double, but, but yeah, it's like

3%.

It was a premium.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that's sort of.

That was great.

I essentially did my apprenticeship again with him.

Yeah.

And would, would you say that this builder was, like, was creating the market

back then or was there demand for it?

I don't think so.

He was, he was a bit of a close shop, sort of a guy, did his thing.

And there was no social media or anything back then.

Yeah.

You know, my mobile phones MySpace, Justin would've been

top friend on MySpace.

I'm surprised.

You know what MySpace is, Matt.

Yeah.

So, but yeah, I, I guess, you know, it was time to move on from, from him.

I stayed with him for like five years.

And learn a massive amount.

And my brother worked for him together, so we worked with my brother for that time.

Yeah.

So yeah, it was great working with him.

He's nickname on site was the clock maker.

You know, he'd always get ribbed about, oh, you know, we're not building clocks.

Yeah.

Because he's there, you know.

Doing his framing.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, it doesn't need to be that neat.

Yeah.

Interesting.

We're not building.

So how, how does that go with you now?

'cause you are such a perfectionist.

I want to get to that.

That's a long story.

I want to get to that,

but I just, I just kind of want to fill in a couple other gaps because

I just wanna put some context in.

'cause obviously we're all in the high performance space now, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And I, you know, and just for context, I really moved into this space about 2018.

But you know, you built a true nine star home, is that right?

Yes.

Way back when.

Yes.

That was, I think 2008.

I think we started design, um, when the

current, so when the current code asked, required what,

uh.

Were there

there even five star back then?

Probably.

I don't think it was, there wasn't five star.

There wasn't anything in that.

So, so there was really no, there wasn't as many external forces back

then other than your pure interests.

Client driven.

Oh yeah.

And were you the client?

No.

No.

Okay.

No.

So that was client driven.

Client driven, yeah.

From a, a scientist.

Yeah.

Okay.

He wasn't a building science.

As a marine scientist.

Yeah.

But yeah, driven by critical

thinking.

Yeah.

The, the

you, do you still talk to that client now?

Yes.

Like, okay.

And, and what's the lived in experience in that home now?

Oh, they

love it.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I'd love to chat to them.

So, me too.

It was, um, it was, it's a full soul passive design.

Yep.

I think, I think within, it was very early that they said that they

thought about a heat exchanger.

Um, wow.

And what year was this?

this?

So they moved 2010, I think they moved in.

Yeah.

And they said that's the one thing that they would change

is to put a heat exchange.

'cause that building was three air changes.

Wow.

Okay.

So that was, yeah, we did, we were actually toying, we were playing with, so

Membranes back then.

So that had a ceiling membrane.

Yeah.

'cause we were concerned about moisture migration through the structure.

An intelligent membrane in internally.

No, it didn't have any, like a cardboard or something problematic.

So we used a silver foil at that time.

Well, I mean, so that's, so this problem on another level, I mean, for, for,

for context though, I mean like there was in completely acceptable

back then, you know, we didn't really know any who tested it.

I never actually cut open to see there's nothing wrong with it.

Um, so yeah, that has been looked at.

Mm-hmm.

And the, they vent the house out.

They manage the house, so it is okay.

But it can be a problem in summer.

Yeah.

Okay.

And yeah, I mean I think that that building back then, it's a

rafter roof and I think it had blanket on the roof actually.

Okay.

Cold roof, a hot roof, warm roof.

Well that's an interesting conversation in itself.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

That's

a whole other hot roof for structures insulated.

Well, Tim, that's depending on the Australian version or European way.

We talk about a pot cold roof.

Yeah.

So anyway, that's It's AAL roof.

It's AAL roof.

Okay, cool.

Um,

but yeah, so I think the next project after that we started bringing in,

class four VA per membrane for the roof.

So that was after that.

So we started bringing it in.

That's still a long time ago though, like in the Yes.

Then I'm now, now I'm

the crazy guy.

Yeah.

Everyone thinks I'm mad.

Do

Do they anymore though?

No.

'cause I think now, well they, he was actually onto something back then.

The

A mad scientist.

Yeah, but, well, no, no.

Maybe there's just more people that are crazier around you now.

You're just attracting the crazies.

Yeah, probably.

Guess it was the first true nine star building that had air tightness.

Yeah.

That had thermally double broken wind, double glazed windows.

We built a, I built a custom curtain wall.

Right.

Um, so we glued, double glazed.

Low e panes onto the whole facade of the front of the building.

So the, the frame was insulated by the, by the glass.

Wow.

Flat by building.

did

you have to va,

did

you vacuum?

How'd you make the space in?

Double glazed then too.

So

it's same, it's boat building.

You're putting, glazing a boat.

It's the same process.

And you just, did you have, how did you then double glaze it?

So to make the airspace Yeah, double glazed units, they just turn up.

Oh, okay.

And

the frame is the air.

So you've actually made your own.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, I've done it multiple times and at home as well.

Um, and I want to get onto talk about that.

And I want get on and I want to get onto your house in a,

in a tick too.

So, so,

so yeah, that was, that was leading in a lot of areas that had a decoupled slab.

Yeah, really.

Uh, so I really, really pushed the engineer hard.

I went into the office and met with 'em.

I said, I want to firmly break this whole slab.

And, and what was your motivation back then?

Right.

Did you, so you obviously knew I think I start to

understand it, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So, so

it was just about, and it was education on off your own bat.

So there was no, there was no, there's no trades person course, there was no social

media, there was nothing about that.

Simply

own research and talking to many, many people.

Leaders in the field and just trying to compile it all together and listen to

everything and then try and work it out.

Yeah.

What's the best, the best way.

And, and was there, was there modeling to kind of understand that back then,

or just was it just more intuitive?

We used Ns, yeah.

Okay.

Um, back then you didn't have to.

Yeah.

But we did.

Did you use it as a costing tool as well then, or did you use it as a.

a

Decision make for perform performance?

Well, I don't think it actually drove the performance.

Um, the client and I drove the performance and the client wanted

as, as high performing as possible.

So the, the decoupled slab come from me later.

So originally we designed in hebel on top of the footings.

Um, so you just put like the hebels, the actual like structure?

Yeah.

So the hebel disconnected the footing, but I went further during

the construction and asked the engineer, can I foam the whole lot?

uh,

And can remove all the bars and go straight over the top of the,

what's a compressive strength of people?

Oh,

it's quite, it's,

it's hard, but yeah, I'm normally go, we've put it under,

Rammed earth walls.

Okay.

You've actually like shocked.

I didn't think it was a, I thought it was just a concrete lining.

Wasn't that You get the box, they're 200 but Yeah.

Yeah.

Two.

Interesting.

That aren't reinforced.

The blocks.

Yeah.

I mean, 'cause they've got an R rating 'cause it's derated

concrete.

Yeah.

It's not

that great.

But,

but it, but it's enough for a thermal break.

Yeah.

Correct.

Yeah.

But anyway, so we put 50 mil foam XPS foam under the whole slab.

Yeah.

The engineer made us get 450 KPA foam.

Which is fucking

mind boggling.

Um, because where did you get that?

Uh, there was someone local, we imported, we imported it from Melbourne.

And do you, do you think that was just them managing their risk at the time?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because, because now just for context, like the, the phone that

we use now from DC Tech is 300 kpa.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Which is actually more than what you need.

Yeah.

If you look at the ground.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Was it 150?

Yeah.

120. One 50.

Yeah.

Bottom of a footing.

Strip footing.

Yeah.

I guess the only, yeah.

It does compress a little bit, but yeah.

But you design in that compression though?

The engine, the engineer will design in the compression.

Yeah.

And it's spread out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we did have to put R 10 Dow bars into the perimeter.

Okay.

Every 600.

That was the, that's not too bad.

That was the only.

only

Look, this, this, this.

I reckon decco size is a whole nother.

We don't have to now.

No, we, we, we

still had to tie last week.

We just tied down with cranked bars down into, it depends.

It depends on the soil classification.

All my soils is like, is basically depends

on soil classifi classification and the appetite of the engineers.

Yes.

My theory on it is if the weight should hold it down.

If, if your house is moving off that footing structure, then there's a whole

bunch of other shit that's gone wrong.

Well, the, the.

The cog bars aren't gonna do, no, those restraint bars

actually contribute to the slabs cracking because when it shrinks, correct?

Yeah.

It actually holds the, and it's gotta give somewhere.

So if it's just floating there, like the slabs, when they're

actually totally disconnect sitting there, I, they don't really crack.

It's very unusual.

I've done so many of 'em are just sit there

and, and you know, and we're, we're talking, you know, clutching of straws

here, but you're trying to decouple the slab from the ground to reduce

thermal bridges and you're actually then putting thermal bridges into.

That slab by putting, and I know it's marginal.

Yeah.

Point thermal bridges.

Yeah.

But you

can also use now, uh, the glass hover bars.

You can, yes.

But you've got, I've just done my whole, that's why I did in my house.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Did you find you had to bring them in from overseas though?

No.

Madewell products supply them.

I know Madewell do 'em, but I know they're special.

No, we didn't use cranked bars.

We just made our own in for our infill slab.

We actually just used the glass fiber and made our own.

Like mesh or an LI.

Oh yeah.

Yours are different.

Yours, yours is a slab over the top, so yeah.

Yeah.

You can get the crank, but you could do

that.

You could do the same concept in a, you can get

the crank

bar.

You can from understanding.

You've gotta

bring 'em in.

They are making 'em.

Um, no, they are, but you just gotta order 'em in.

Yeah.

They've got, no, they've just got the machines.

They're pretty sure from, I shouldn't to crank them here.

Yeah.

Alright, well Madewell, if you want to come on as a sponsor for

this podcast, then means, anyway

The nine star home, was that your, your business, your, your building?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you're a builder, nine star home, early 2010.

They moved in.

Yeah.

At what point did you then drink the Kool-Aid for the

whole passive house thing?

Uh, it was at that point that project won a few awards.

I'm surprised.

Best custom home.

Um.

In its price point, uh, energy efficient home of the year in Tasmania, and then

energy efficient home in Australia is, it was, at that point we went to Sydney.

Um, there was a big fanfare event.

Uh, we won.

We had some celebrities there as MCs and they're looking at me.

I was up against these massive businesses that are taking all these awards sponsored

by New South Wales government and yeah.

And these, the MCs going, so how many of you is there a view like is big team

and it's like, oh no, I'm a sole trader.

Really?

Yeah, he was just amazed, um, that I was there and we had, we were finalists in

quite a few other areas as well, and.

Um, yeah, it was, it was good.

It made the Sydney Morning Herald.

Wow.

Wow.

Um, yeah, and then it was sort of like, oh, I've got the pinnacle.

Where am I gonna go now?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So then I started researching and then I found this thing called

passive house in, in Europe, and started doing a lot of research.

Jeez.

You would've gone down a rabbit hole.

So that was, that was like 2013.

Wow.

Um, wasn't much happening here.

Claire Perry was doing some stuff.

She was the, the founding.

of the

Association

and Harley Trong in 2014 built his,

yeah.

In Canberra.

Was he the first passive house Harley?

Uh, no.

There's one in, um, Adelaide I think might been the first Adelaide.

Interesting.

'cause like there's not many passive, there's not many, yeah.

Kangaroo flat or somewhere, or was that It was around there.

I, I think the one, taggy one was the first one.

Victoria, Victoria, I think, yeah, big

spots.

You would've thought, like there would've been, say for example,

wanting like a rack or like a really big architect be like, let's just do

something that hasn't been done before.

No,

you know what?

I'm actually not surprised that it was regional.

'cause if you think about like, makes sense, like the, the idea of

passive house is this kind of left field kind of, you know, wacky, you

know, whatever kind of construction which probably suits owner builders.

So I feel like mainstream architecture is only starting to pick it up now.

now.

Yeah.

And a lot of,

and not, and a lot of those early passive houses, geez, they were ugly buildings.

Yeah,

yeah.

They weren't the nice, they,

I think that really hurt the passive house site movement for a while where

there was this probably misconception that you can't have a beautiful,

sustainable building that's like healthy, inefficient, live in and look good.

Yeah.

I mean, there's other things that to think about too, like form as well.

Yeah.

Is a big thing in getting a certified building so that.

It does sometimes dictate the design.

So it is harder on a, you know, interestingly designed

home to make certification.

But back to you.

So you've done the nine star, you've got a bit of traction,

you've found passive house.

Mm-hmm.

If I'd like, I always think about like

you found this room,

around for a while,

I,

got

the PHPP,

Uh so I bought it from Germany, from Pasco Institute.

So did anyone, did, did you know anyone that was using it at that time?

N

No, not really.

I Clear was yourself and there was a few people, so I just sort of

got it and then found that there was gonna be this course coming up.

Yeah.

Um, with Box Hill.

Yep.

Uh, and there's an Irish trainer coming over.

Yeah.

So I registered for the, the designer course and paid for it.

Yep.

And some things happened at work and I had to bail out of that.

Uh, didn't get a refund.

So you actually never went to the course?

So then I went to the Tradesperson course.

Yeah.

And I took the guy who worked for me with me, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And pro Climber was offering a sponsorship, uh, scholarship.

And I was lucky enough that I was, I won that, uh, did a submission.

and

Got a scholarship in the end.

I actually did a deal with the guy who I was going with

saying, oh, you we'll split it.

Yeah.

So this is before you had

a bigger relationship with pro climber?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's sort of where it,

that's where that's sparked.

I was sitting in a hotel room in Melbourne, 'cause we had to

come over and do the course.

Yeah.

For a whole week, which was great 'cause we hung out with a, with the trainer.

'cause

Everyone else was from around here and yeah.

You know, I was having a PhD PP at the, at the table after, after school.

And we, I'm asking all these questions because I'm planning my home.

It's a one-on-one convers.

So you got one-on-one training?

Yeah.

This next step to

touch on this for a sec too, did, did you do, when you did

your passive house tradesperson course, was it in person or online?

It was in person, and I did mine with Burkhart at Box Hill tafe.

And I think.

the

course that they offer then is vastly different to what's offered now.

It,

it is, it is vastly different and I can understand why it switched

online 'cause it's easier.

However, I did the, I did the same course with Burkhart as well.

Right.

And there is just something about sitting in a room with

someone as as passionate as.

Bur card.

Everyone knows Bur card.

I still think you can do it online.

Yeah.

I still think you can make it passion online.

I just think the information that's taught and the care and the love

that is taught isn't there anymore.

Oh, look, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna refrain, comment on that because

I, I haven't done the online course 'cause I don't have any experience

in it, but I just feel like being in person, like good connection

us sitting here right now Right.

I think would get so much more out of than if we were doing this online.

Well, it's easy to communicate.

You

can talk to all the people that are there and I, you get to network, you pick up on,

you pick up on cues as well from other people that you just kind of don't

get online and, and you try to online.

But anyway, well, I

just did the, I just did the, the designer course online and it was so different, the

experience compared to doing in person.

Yeah, the trades person course.

Like it was, I can't even, it, the courses were so different.

Um, and the, and I've gotta be careful what I probably say here.

That the, it's the first time, Matt.

No, I know, but like the, being careful about saying I, you really

want me to tell you what I think?

I No, no, no, no.

I do not.

I don't.

Um, the, I think that the way that Burkhart taught us and that he kind

of just took you under your wing.

His wing and was like, Hey, charismatic, I've got you.

I'm gonna pull my effort into you so passionate.

Like, I'm gonna te I'm gonna teach you everything that I have.

I feel like now it's more of a commercial agreement, like, we're

gonna teach you and that's it.

I think, I think you, I think it's the passion's gone from it.

No, but yeah.

Okay.

Totally digressing and I do agree that, but, but you, you

do get that when you're in the classroom because I see you'll get that connection.

I see you and your passion and we click and we both can solve a problem together.

And so then we keep Yeah.

In contact and, yeah.

Well, that's right.

I guess we were sitting next to me in the first passive fast course.

True.

Devon behind me.

Yeah.

Asking me all these questions.

'cause he knew I was already doing this stuff.

Yeah.

We were building one at the moment.

We were implementing HRV and air Barriers and he's asking me all these questions,

so many questions and, you know, had the, the class clown Stuart Lee.

Oh, he had stu there back then too.

Could, he was absolutely the clown of the class.

He was absolutely hilarious asking funny questions and he, he got it.

I, I was there thinking.

This guy, he's not gonna get it.

Like, and he was a bit negative to start with, and then he got it during the

class, and it's like, yeah, that's it.

But I still thought, oh, and look where he is gone now.

I,

I wanna, I want touch on that for a second.

Yeah.

Because I reckon I had a very similar moment too.

So I kind of just, found out about passive house through f from max of design.

Literally went online that night, booked the course, which has

happened to be in two weeks time.

And I kind of went into it really green, not really soul eye,

knowing what passive house was.

within

Within five minutes of sitting in there, the penny just dropped, and it

sounds like you had the same moment.

Stewie had

had the same moment.

Yeah.

Devon's obviously had the same moment as well.

It just fucking makes sense.

So that's maybe where I don't give credit to the course now is the pennies

already dropped through things like social media for so many people.

When we did it, that was it.

Like this is this new thing.

Yeah.

Like it's the hot, sexy, I don't know what this is.

I'm learning.

I'm learning now.

There's so much information through what we all put out that you go into

this course kind of already knowing.

Interesting

enough.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So there's not that kind of like dopamine hit of Yeah.

You are just It was when I came

home.

Yeah.

And in the plane going.

It's

just changed my life.

I, that, that, that had the same on

the, the plane going, oh, I'm, I'm changed forever.

Also, I, so I canned within I think two weeks.

I actually canned a job, was like, I'm not building this way anymore.

I went full cold Turkey.

Yeah.

And I was like, that's the way like our brains were was just

like, we're just gonna do it.

Literally pivot.

Like, yeah, I was

that way and then I was that way.

Without question.

I stayed out there 'cause our, ours was out in like, it,

was in

Lilydale.

Lilydale, yes.

Which is like an hour and a bit for, lilydale.

And so I actually stayed out there for a hotel for two days.

'cause I had the exam and I wanted to study and I just, and I was like,

I remember how I was watching a TV series at the time and I just was

like, I really wanna finish a series.

I was loving it, but I could not stop reading about.

Yeah.

I was just like so consumed about building and it was the first time I felt

it's like, why aren't we being taught.

this

from, it just makes sense.

Yeah.

It just makes sense.

So, so,

so, so from there you were designing, you were already designing or you're

already building a passive house?

Uh, so,

well I was designing a high performance house to myself, which

looks nothing like it does now.

Yeah.

I was designing a jelly bean essentially with a compound curve roof.

Okay.

Um, and then, 'cause that's, I ask why, that's what designing

a jellybean, because I used to.

Do projects that were very difficult, I guess, technically complex.

You don't like to make your life.

So I did a, I did a compound curve, uh, roof.

Out of what?

Well, we actually had to build a, I had to lay the steel, 'cause

there was a box gutter around it and it sort of compound curved.

We had to lay 20 by 20 steel and actually fabricate this compound curve.

So, hang on.

You built this or you were

That was before.

And, and then we cut it off at 45 and it looked like a wave breaking.

breaking

Wow.

As you drove up to it, is that your whole curve?

Double glazed glass.

Wow.

Is that your house?

No.

Oh, this is one idea.

So this is where I got this, the bubble and the jelly bean,

and realized this is ridiculous.

I'm never gonna be able to afford this, even building it myself, and

I'm gonna take 10 years building it.

So I went and designed something more, look like an eagle shape.

And, and this house that you built now is a certified passive

house in Tassie and it's CLT.

I'm asked him.

No,

no.

That's another job that I did.

Okay.

What haven't you done?

I'll do anything.

Yeah.

But like you, you've got such a good experience.

I feel like at that point I feel we're gonna keep talking for ages.

I feel like the point you are at your CRE there and where I'm at,

like you've had, you've, you've done so much more than what, like you've

got such good experience in so many different facets of construction.

I just, I

love a challenge.

Yeah.

I

thrive at a challenge.

So, and this is, this is interesting because I, I, I am gonna touch on

mental health and I'm gonna touch on wellbeing because, and I, you know, it's

been no secret that I've gone through my own sort of challenges over time.

Yeah.

And, and I, you know, as I learn about myself, I understand why I

am who I am, you know, diagnosed A DHD, diagnosed anxiety disorder.

I

I get dopamine not putting myself in situations that are challenging and I get

really fucking bored when things are easy.

Mm-hmm.

And it kind of sounds like you are very like a sucker for pain.

Yeah.

But I am.

I love it.

That's right.

Exactly.

But I love problem solving, but So your home that you live in now,

certified passive house off grid.

Yeah.

And

And I remember chatting with you last week and you were like.

I think I said the same thing as what you did.

You can't put your finger on what it's like to live and be in a passive house.

No, but it just feels different and your life is different and you

feel healthier and comfortable and like you are now living in this

home that's a certified building.

Which, what was your out changes that you

got?

The, the result was.

0.14.

Yeah.

Okay.

Point

one four.

Yeah.

So you, you are the one that screwed up all the original data for Well, no, we

didn't put that one in.

That was not you going, referring back to CSIO.

Yeah.

Where that, uh, that was No, that was my, I had three others that went in there.

We didn't realize it was chasing averages of what the homes are in each state.

And we like all the most air tight buildings we've done in Tasmania.

And you screwed all that.

Well, we don't need to do anything in Tasmania because they're

already building tight houses.

Yeah.

But it was just you.

Well, yeah, I, yeah, I, Sean Maxwell always said I screwed

the results in Tasmania.

So go.

Yeah, you go.

I was just gonna say, 'cause there was a point, so you built your own

certified passive house, you're off grid.

Like you, you, you feel like you're happier, but you probably weren't.

Yeah.

there was

some, there was something our building that kind of wasn't well 'cause I guess,

um, I'm hands on.

Yeah.

I'm micromanager.

So you're on the tools as a builder now, a bag line the whole time?

Yeah.

Okay.

Up until towards the end, where I, I just simply couldn't, um, I mean obviously I

was running another business, um Yeah.

Which

is PHCP people, which were touching.

Yeah.

And yeah, it was pretty busy, but building was taking up 80% of my time

and I lost a lot of sleep for years.

And that's just 'cause I care and we care.

I build us, you know how we are.

Some that don't.

Sometimes I wish that I didn't.

Yeah.

Do you think people don't understand that about what we do?

That there's this mis misconception that they, they, they just rock up,

get there at seven o'clock, build a house, go at 3:00 PM that's it.

Oh, there is that.

I mean, yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday and she said, well, you are the

sort of person, not one, building my home.

All that, you know, apart from your mental health and, and

you can't sleep and you, you're personally attached to this project.

That's who I want building my home and yeah, I get that.

Um, that's who I'd want.

Building my home too.

There's so much anxiety around building that.

I can say that the amount of times you go home and you're still

thinking about it, you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about

like, did I allow enough for that?

Construction prices are going up.

This is an issue moment going,

oh, did I,

like, I had that the other day.

I got on site.

I was like, I didn't able flex around the block work for the.

The decoupled slab.

So I've had to send three of my team there while the client's there for an

on onsite meeting, we had to run around putting able flex around the whole

outside to allow from expansion that your brain does not stop as a builder, but,

but you got to the point where you decided not to be a builder

anymore.

Uh, I tried to separate myself, um, from site because obviously

managing the red tape, and all goes with that of being a builder.

Yeah, essentially that just the, the one job at a time really

doesn't exist anymore 'cause.

There's so much challenges.

Banks.

Yeah.

All that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

So I tried to distance myself and leave it to the site, but every time I go to

site, there's things that, you know, I was trying to look the other way.

Like what examples?

Well, it was fine and everyone would go, that's okay, but it's not okay if, you

know, like I used to make the tradesmen when we used to do decks for instance.

I'd make them turn the Phillips head screws all in the same direction and.

They do that by hand.

You know, door hinge, screw, they've gotta be all

right.

I

mean, as the owner, the client, well they don't give a shit.

Well no.

Yeah, but they, they're just like, someone will see it one day, this builder.

Oh my god.

But like, that was literally doing your head in.

Yeah.

And thank God for torque head screws.

You know,

what?

You

can't, you can't see, can't, you can't see.

Imagine like the stars and he's like making sure they're

all, they're down there.

Like instead of like the four points on a Phillips head, now

you've got like the seven or eight.

It's like, are they all And did, did, did the

team ever like go, I'm gonna fuck Justin's.

Yeah, the everyone was.

Yeah.

Yes.

That happened a lot.

But,

but, but so, I mean, and we're laughing about it, but like, this

is like having a severe impact on you and your mental wellbeing.

Not that I personally knew at the time.

'cause I was just, you know, going for it.

I was essentially a workaholic.

Yeah.

Um, and if I wasn't at work, I was feeling guilty.

Yeah.

I feel, yeah, I, yeah, I get that.

So, you know, I, there was a, a year where, you know, a whole year where

a minimum 70 hours was a light week.

Was that when you were building your own house?

No, no.

This is on site.

So when you were building your own house, going back a little bit.

Were you more sort of addicted to work then?

'cause it's your own.

I'm living in this, this has to be even more per Well yeah.

It

suspend Every single weekend there as everyone does.

Or did you step back a bit being like, I, it's my house.

I can live with that not being lined up with a deck screws,

I can live with that not being perfect, it's just client's houses.

You were more, it has to be a

uh, yeah, I did let go a little bit with mine.

Um,

yeah.

Client's houses.

No, I can't do that.

'cause that's.

'cause that's me and my

Do

you know what?

I actually feel the same way.

Like my wife shakes her head at, you know, particularly with our, our past home that,

you know, how, how it be different now, but our past home, she's like, how can you

do what you do every single day at work?

And you demand such a high level of finish every single day at work and your projects

run pretty well every single day at work.

But you can't fucking fix up that half a dozen things that have been sitting there

for the last 12 months.

Well, why can't you put that thing back in the pantry in its spot?

Oh, just, yeah, like it's, it's interesting when

it's your own home, right?

Yeah.

Because you would think, and it's, I know it's ironic 'cause my client's home.

Like, that's my reputation, that's my brand.

You know, that's, that's everything.

Whereas my own home,

I

I kind of feel like I can just let it go.

It doesn't matter so much.

Doesn't matter.

Yeah.

And it just sits there.

The list sits there.

Is it one thing that you've done?

For a client that you've sat there

and

and still to this day is like, I wish I'd like just still

eats you alive a little bit.

Is there one thing that just Oh, great question.

You're just like, you, you, I still, you're waiting for the call

on something or that wasn't right?

yeah.

I, it's a, a recent job and it's a CLT job.

We were, we were going for certification, essentially got to the end.

Everything was done, everything was submitted.

But we got picked up on technicality and I raised it initially so the owners

didn't want us sort passive house.

They knew I was building it.

Yeah.

You know, getting what they were.

Yeah.

Painful they were paying for.

And I flagged a skylight, had a triple glac roof light.

It was quite a large one.

It was four and a half meters by four.

Three and a half meters or something.

Yeah.

Cost a made in Australia with uh, six panels.

Shit.

So the plan had St. Lucia suite, um, un thermally, broken section with all

these spaces to get the 50 mil glass in.

And I flag, I said, this is not gonna be okay.

Um, we've got from a passive house point of view.

Yes.

Thermal bridge.

So I was researching, section, I tried to get the UX curtain wall section.

Yeah.

So we could get that over and make it, but then they wouldn't guarantee it.

Off,

Off, off vertical.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And I was 30 degrees, said no.

I said Okay.

So I talked to Andreas from Raco.

Yeah.

And he, he said he'd provide the section.

But obviously it was expensive.

The owners didn't want a certified passive house and they thought it was okay and

it didn't really get past that stage.

I pushed and that was it.

At the end, it undid it.

Um, it didn't meet the thermal bridge calculation.

But it still works.

The house is perfect.

Well,

yeah, it still works.

Uh, PHI said electrify the aluminum to heat it up.

Uh, that's a solution.

We couldn't get power to it 'cause you can warm it up to get it above the dew point.

I did not know.

Has, have you, have

you ever monitored to see if it does have an issue?

It's too high.

because,

That could be seven

meters in the air.

Okay.

This is, this is great, right?

There's the theoretical certification, right?

That everyone is going for that nice plaque on the wall.

But I'm always interested in the lived in experience.

So those clients, yes.

You know that it's not a certified home.

Yes.

You know, you could have done some things to that particular skylight, but do

the clients love living in the house?

Well, ah, that they have a certified passive house.

The house is perfect.

It just didn't, lemme get tripped up right at the end.

All, everything was there.

It was disappointing.

But you didn't fail pass, you didn't fail the certification 'cause you

were never going for it that right?

No, no, no, no, no.

Correct.

We didn't

fail it.

It probably, you just didn't meet it and it wouldn't change anything

of the lived experience at all.

And

that's, and that's what I was kind of getting at.

And look, and from my understanding of, um, the way the PPP works, the

skylights are kind of a bit of a, anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

That's, but, but, you probably fit in with PH low energy.

certification.

No, this one

doesn't.

Yeah, because you may because you failed the film reach.

Yeah, yeah.

You fail.

You fail the comfort.

You like the ER test, you failed the comfort criteria.

Yeah.

It's mold.

Okay, so maybe it's mold potential.

Yeah.

Okay.

Interesting.

Okay.

It'd be really

interesting to see if you could monitor that and then in say seven, eight years,

you be like, no, they still my molded.

And they then can't be like, no, you're okay.

Now it's

anecdotal.

They wouldn't, they wouldn't do it.

I know, but

it's like, I think this is where sometimes it goes a little bit too far.

Like is that going to change?

Well, yeah, I guess they do go.

They've got, they're rigid, they've got their process.

They made me do a thermal bridge calculation on my house, on my

curtain wall glazing in the middle.

And I said that it's gonna be a negative thermal bridge and they

said I still had to do it anyway.

So it improved the P-H-P-P-F-E because Yeah, it was, it was actually improvement.

Yeah.

Um, the thermal bridge, but I knew that.

But they said, no, you have to do it.

So it's very rigid.

Yeah, it was.

Okay.

Which

I think is a good thing.

Right?

I think it needs to be rejected off to, to, to.

They also made me

sign a waiver on the, on the curtain wall too.

'cause they didn't like it.

Is

is that, do you wanna talk about that curtain wall?

No.

Why?

He does.

He doesn't wanna talk about it.

He is gonna do his head in.

So, so, so, do you know why?

No.

I dunno.

Why?

No, I,

I, well, I remember, um, nearly vomiting.

Um, 'cause I put the pains in the 350 kilos, put the pains in with my excavator.

I welded a, a crane or the excavator so I could get the sucker bank down lower.

And I had only had like 20 mil tolerance to bring it in over a deck and under the.

Two and a half meter Eve slips in, um,

with an excavator?

Yes.

Okay.

Um, I built a road in front of it.

Um, but yeah, we were, we had to rotate this paint and then one

of the, the neighbor helped me as well, and he said it, it's slipping.

I

I had the front of the excavator.

I nearly vomited out the front of the excavator.

I could just see it was one of the biggest ones, and I could just see it.

He said, it's slipping, but it was rotating a little bit and

oh, oh, this is, it's slipping.

It's gonna be on the ground.

It's gonna be broken.

Oh, no.

So I literally nearly vomited.

I just went pale.

I felt sick.

I was just about to vomit.

And they go, no, it's okay.

So yeah, we finally got all that in and then I was sick

for th two months after that.

'cause it was a buildup to work out how to actually do it.

It was months of planning trying to work out actually how cranes

couldn't lift in under the roof.

I remember you telling me

this story.

It was me, you and Air Boss Dan we're grabbing, dinner, uh, actually, and

your wife, and we ended up, I said to my wife, Nicole, it's gotta be home at.

I'll go for dinner at five 30.

I'd be home by about seven.

I think it was one, 1:00 AM She's like, you coming home and

I've glad we're still talking.

So you told me.

So, I mean,

so it's an interesting to take so to, to touch on like the, your physical response

to that stress and the buildup, you know, and, and obviously it's, it impacted

you for a couple months afterwards.

Is this the reason why you don't physically build anymore?

It's has damaged my health and, um, I mean.

mean that

That Vanessa stood by me for so long.

Yeah.

Uh, being the way that I am.

Um, yeah.

And she's a nurse, is that correct?

Yeah.

Do you think that's the caring nature that I, I feel of nurses just have,

I think so.

She's very caring.

Yeah.

She's, uh, very calm.

Yeah.

Um, she's the glue in the family.

Yeah.

Uh, I, she's goes, oh, well.

Okay.

That's fine.

We'll, we'll work it out.

Um,

and how are you now?

Uh good now.

Yeah.

Um, when I left, uh.

Or finished work.

I had a job that fell through, it was gonna be a certified passive house,

um, designed by Envi architecture.

Oh, yeah.

Um, and I was just about to turn ground and essentially the bank

made it too difficult and they sort of said, said, we, we are

canning it, we're gonna redesign it.

And I said, I'm out.

Um, when was

this?

This was two years ago.

Yeah.

Right.

And you're just like, I'm done with the building.

Yeah.

So that's it.

It.

I'm, I'm done.

Um, so I found.

Employment for staff.

Yeah.

And yeah, I was, I was over feeling pretty washed up thinking, oh,

but you still performance membranes going or PHCP?

Yeah.

But I, I'm, I guess, a craftsman and that's my identity and I've

felt like I lost my identity 'cause I'm not doing that anymore.

That's a really interesting

point, isn't it?

Because you, I, I, I, and you know, it's probably be interesting

conversation to have with Devin as well.

'cause I mean, I, I identify as a builder.

You know, me too.

Still.

Do

you know?

And as much as, yeah.

When someone asks you, what, what do you do for work?

What do you say?

Well, I get offended when people go, oh, you are the, you

are the rep for pro climber.

It's like, I get so offended and they go, why aren't you answering me?

'cause I'm struggling to answer it.

Yeah.

'cause I'm a builder.

Yeah.

I'm not a sales rep. Um, I'm pro climber has always been the vehicle for me.

to

To get to where I want to go.

Yeah.

With the build environment.

And that is to change the building industry.

Do you love where you are now?

Do you love the space that you are, what you are doing right now?

the relief when I did stop building was, uh, it was amazing.

Yeah.

It was, it was, I just, this whole weight lifted off my shoulders.

Yeah.

Uh, without, with no stress.

That stress had gone continuously, was there.

But yeah, I, I, I really struggled after it.

Had some serious problems and.

Yeah.

Sort of that whole perfectionism

really

came

came out after I finished work.

I think work was an outlet for that.

Yeah.

Okay.

And it was seriously a little bit of a mental problem.

Yeah.

Um, so

so

yeah,

It all

all spilled out into home then.

Yeah.

So no one could do anything at home.

Um, no one could do anything.

Right.

Oh.

' cause you were, you were wanting to control the scenario.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's really, and no one could do anything.

Right.

And if someone

would do it, I go, that's not right.

And it, it really became problems.

So I had to seek some help.

Yeah.

Good.

You know what, good on you for seeking help and, and, and I, I know a little

bit of the story and you know, I feel like we could fucking, I think we gotta

get, I think it's holiday podcast.

Yeah.

We had to talk for hours.

Yeah.

And I, and I'd love, I'd actually love to get you back on to unpack it

if, if you're willing to talk about it, because I think it is important.

And if you don't want to, that's totally fine as well.

Yeah,

no, it's fine.

I guess, I mean, there's a lot of these stories about this and

I, I think I'll, you know, is it just trendy talking about it?

I don't know.

You know?

'cause it was that point where I been, I've been like it

for years, for decades, and

I, it didn't exist.

Or I thought, no, that's not me.

Um, does it all be, I'd be weak?

And someone that I worked for had a mental breakdown and I

go, what is wrong with them?

It must be like a chemical thing.

Yeah.

Can't

they just, can't

they manifest just be something wrong with their brain?

Yeah.

And,

Then obviously I'm having these struggles and then it all just blew up.

With anxiety.

Yeah.

Um, and that was obviously overworked.

Yeah, exhausted and anxiety.

I couldn't answer a phone.

I, I just totally lost it.

Went to ground, just nearly had a nervous breakdown, I guess.

So it does exist.

And it does affect you and affects everyone around you more importantly.

Yeah, that's the problem.

Yeah.

You, you and I have touched on that before as well, you know, like that,

the impact, because you can live in your own bubble, I know I experience

this sometimes, and even recently, I live in my own bubble and I operate in

my, in my own head and I lose track.

And it sounds like you have as well of how that's impacting the

people that are around you and the people that are closest to you.

Mm-hmm.

The trendy thing.

Can understand, you know, like there's so many more people getting diagnosed

on the spectrum or A DHD or whatever.

But I think it's just we have much more of an understanding of it now, and I think

it's good that we're recognizing this.

'cause then it allows us to have the tools to be able to then approach life

because like I, I had the privilege of coming down to an open house last