Building Fire-Safe Homes Today with Derek Gruchy

Episode 81 • 12th April 2023 • Construction Disruption • Isaiah Industries

Intro/Outro:

Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of design, building and remodeling.

Todd Miller:

I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building materials. Today, my co-host is Seth Heckaman. Seth, you are knee-deep in getting ready for the Metal Roofing Summit. Are you like getting your tap shoes out and rehearsing sort of a song and dance?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:00:37

No, thank you. Thankfully, the agenda is full, packed full of much more valuable content than what that would be for our speakers. So no dead space for me to resort to such means to fill it. So we're grateful for that, grateful for who we have lined up to bring great value to attendees. You know, this is the focus as we've been putting together that agenda is knowing that in the years ahead for home improvement companies may be a little more challenging than the past couple of years of record boom that the industry has been experiencing. So we've got great folks lined up. David Yoho, Jim Johnson, Frank Farmer, Megan Beatty, some additional, even beyond that of people to cover best practices and getting back to foundational principles that we need to brush up on and have be sharpening our axe to still have success regardless of what the market is going to be thrown at us. So, yeah, really excited of who we have put together for the agenda, what sponsors we have joining us. And registration is starting to fill up. So when this publishes, we'll be a few weeks out from the Summit but there will undoubtedly still be some room we can squeeze folks in and have join us and they don't have to miss out either. So anyone who wants to learn more about the Summit coming up April 25th through the 27th can learn more on metalroofingsummit.com. So it'll be a great couple of days.

Todd Miller:

: 00:02:06

That sounded briefly like we were going to be doing ax throwing, but I don't recall that being on the agenda.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:02:12

That'll be a fun, yeah breakout team-building session in the evenings.

Todd Miller:

: 00:02:16

I like that, I like that, it's cool. And this is going to be in convenient and beautiful Dayton, Ohio where folks can fly direct into Dayton or they can also fly into Columbus, Cincinnati, or Indianapolis. And those are all within pretty easy driving distance. So April 25th through 27th, metalroofingsummit.com. So, Seth, I have to tell you, kind of a sad story. My wife and I went to a wedding last weekend and I don't know what was going on. It was just this incredibly emotional wedding. Just very, very emotional. Even the cake was in tears. Okay, that took a moment there.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:03:11

Goodness. Yes, you've been excited about our guest today and his affinity for dad jokes. So you've been researching him all week, figuring out a good one.

Todd Miller:

: 00:03:23

So, do you have one?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:03:24

I did. I came prepared with one myself. So what do you call two monkeys that share an Amazon account?

Todd Miller:

: 00:03:34

My wife and I.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:03:38

No, you call them prime-mates.

Todd Miller:

: 00:03:46

Primates? Oh, that's a good one.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:03:47

Your set up was much better.

Todd Miller:

: 00:03:51

Oh, so I need to remind our audience we are doing challenge words. Our guest is also participating. So each one of us here on the show have a word that we have been challenged to work into the conversation. We encourage the audience to kind of listen and see if they can figure out what our challenge word was. And at the end we will reveal whether we were successful. So the whole challenge word concept I picked up on last summer learning that sometimes sports announcers and in particular, baseball announcers, like to give each other challenge words to work into conversations. And so now that's making me really anxious for baseball season this year. I got something to look forward to.

Todd Miller:

: 00:04:31

So let's get rolling. Enough with the fun and festivities, we will continue with the fun. Today's guest is Derek Gruchy. Located in Toronto, Ontario, Derek is the program coordinator for Fire Protection Engineering Technology at Seneca College of Applied Arts and Technology. He's been in that role for nearly, gosh, I think 15 years, maybe more. And he is also on the board and currently past president of the Southern Ontario chapter of the Society of Fire Protection Engineers. Derek, welcome to Construction Disruption. We appreciate your joining us today.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:05:12

Absolutely. Thanks for having me and apologies. I didn't wear a suit jacket today, but, you know, as a fire practitioner just for fire protection, I just, I can't bring myself to wear something that's called a blazer. Oh, he's coming in. Now for a dad joke, seriously.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:05:33

There you go.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:05:36

What do you call a flower shop arson?

Todd Miller:

: 00:05:40

Flower shop, boy, your dad jokes also have to do with fire.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:05:44

Yeah, topical.

Todd Miller:

: 00:05:46

Flower shop arson, flora...

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:05:48

A florist fire.

Todd Miller:

: 00:05:55

I may have gotten that one eventually! Probably not, no, I wouldn't have.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:05:57

There you go.

Todd Miller:

: 00:05:59

Great way to start things off. So kind of curious, we're gonna talk more about you and what you do but and also a little bit about Seneca College. But what motivated you to a career in fire protection? How did you get where you are today?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:06:17

It's actually kind of a nontraditional story, I guess. But I was in mechanical engineering in university, and I actually signed up to do my my Masters to do some research on a new nuclear reactor and impact on damage and whatnot. So kind of life safety. And then the next semester, just before I was ready to graduate, the professor said, Oh, I found a Ph.D. student and I can't take you for my my Masters anymore. And I was like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? So I went and talked to one of my other professors, Professor Daniel Gauche, and I was kind of friends with him. And he he mentioned this other guy, George, that was in civil engineering. And I was like, okay, well, I'll go talk to him. I don't know. And so I was all ready to kind of explain why I could be a fit, even though I was in mechanical and he was doing this fire safety thing and he talked me into it and fell in love. And I said, okay, I I'm in. Just so you know, I'm mechanical engineering. And he's like, Oh, yeah, me too. And the rest is history, I guess. So it wasn't a calling per se from from when I was a kid. A lot of my students have much more passionate since they were children, knowing this is what they wanted to do. But the giving back and caring about people is something I think that I've always had. And so getting to teaching where I am now is something that I've always wanted to do since I was a kid because I had a lot of uncles that were teachers. And so I ended up kind of in the perfect spot.

Todd Miller:

: 00:08:01

Very neat. So was that Gruchy meets Gauche you said, and the rest is history.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:08:06

Exactly.

Todd Miller:

: 00:08:07

That doesn't happen every day, that's cool. So tell us a little bit about Seneca College. If student goes there in fire protection engineering, I mean what what are they prepared for down the road What are some of the things they learn, courses of study, so forth?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:08:23

It's a pretty spectacular program that we've been around for 50 years. So I'm not taking any credit. I've just kind of carried the mantle. But there's so many different careers that you could talk for hours about it. But kind of the the three main categories that we have are the fire service, which is the one that most people are familiar with. So a firefighter, maybe a fire investigator, public educator, or the investigation side of things after a fire. And then we have the design kind of engineering side of things where it's sprinkler design, alarm design or building codes, the code consulting, insurance risk management. And then if you're more of a hands-on person, then we have the installation of all the systems. So there's a wide variety of careers. And because of that, our program is so diverse in the the courses that we have to cover the codes, the standards, and we try and our, our graduates get hired around the world. And so we're focused mainly on the Ontario codes for our students. But we do get into NFPA one on one and the life safety codes and other things around the world, because we know they're going to be important for our students when they go work there as well. And then from my personal, I get into the fire dynamics, explosions, human behavior during fire, all the stuff that I'm really passionate about. But we also cover all the the systems, the software that we need to be able to be great at our jobs. Everything's in the program. It's too much to talk about.

Todd Miller:

: 00:10:06

That's very cool, though. And, you know, it sounds like Seneca is extremely respected in that field and pretty specialized field to boot. So, very cool. Well, I'm kind of curious, what and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but what are some statistics or perhaps other general information you can provide with us in regards to structural fires in Canada or even North America or beyond?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:10:31

Yeah, there's a lot of them.

Todd Miller:

: 00:10:33

Yeah, no doubt.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:10:35

The most important one, I guess, is that most deaths that occur in fire happen at in a residential property. So they're happening in our home or places where we're sleeping. And one of the big reasons for that, it's not really a coincidence because those are the places where we don't have sprinklers. And so one of the the big things that we're always pushing for is residential sprinklers, because the places that have them, they don't really have the same issues that we all do. And we've started to see some slow progress, kind of pushback between every different group. But eventually we start seeing that that happening now. So kind of high-rise residential, they now have to have them in new construction. It'd be great to get that retrofit and get all of them the same protections, but every kind of advancement we get there is a win because that's that's one of the biggest concerns. As dangerous as your home is, it's even more dangerous for people that are indigenous or First Nations people. In Canada, you're ten times more likely to die on a reservation in a fire in your home than any other person in that country. I assume that it's similar across North America just for a lot of different reasons, but that's something that we're actively working on right now at Seneca is helping some of our First Nations that have had recent tragedies where families have died. Outside of that, in the the typical populations, one of the kind of not one, I guess, three of the big risk factors for increasing your chance of dying in a fire are if you smoke, if you are over the age of 65, and if you are uneducated. So, for example, if you're smoking, you're giving more chance that you might cause a fire in your home by dropping a cigarette, disposing it in an improper way. As you get older, there could be a lot of, it's harder to be mobile. You may take more naps, you may have medical conditions like phlebitis or something where it's hard to to get through the evacuation process as easily as somebody that's younger. And for uneducated people, it can be not having employment as good as somebody that has more education. Statistically, obviously, there's lots of uneducated people that have very good jobs and are making way more money than me. But statistically, that puts them into places where if you're not able to afford as good of a place, then it's probably not going to have as good of fire safety in that building. And there's been a lot of fires recently in those type of buildings where significant loss of life has happened because fire safety wasn't put first. And let's give you one more, two more. Fire that happens in the home, really any building, but in the home most often is because of cooking. So if people can just focus when they're cooking dinner or cooking whatever meal, watch it and be there. Don't put it on the oven and leave, because that's when the oil can boil over or, you know, a fire can start and then it gets to the cabinets and it gets somewhere else and we get in a lot of trouble there. So watching it, you can intercept it before it becomes too bad. And the last one, we'll talk more about this later, hopefully. But fires have gotten a lot bigger, a lot faster. So if you hear a smoke alarm, get out and worry about it being a false alarm later, come back in, laugh, cry, get angry about it. But you get to do those things by delaying just 2 minutes. That can be too much time. And now you're you're trapped inside a fire. And I'll talk about some case studies later, hopefully about how within just a few minutes, hundreds of people have died in fires because they didn't evacuate immediately.

Todd Miller:

: 00:15:00

Immediately, interesting.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:15:03

That makes perfect sense. I never thought of it, that yeah, our homes and obviously it becomes even more problematic with high-rise residential facilities are our most vulnerable point. But you know, it makes sense. The place where we hope to be the safest in this case is is where we have the greatest risk. I'm curious, you know, when we think about trying to protect our families and, you know, against all these risk factors and something were to happen, we have visions of having, you know, sacrificial heroics and trying to save everybody. But with someone with your knowledge of this industry and all that goes into it, you know, what are some ways that maybe you've protected your family and home that you may think the rest of us don't know to do or precautions to take?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:15:52

One of the big things, that's a great question, the simplest things that don't really change anything, doesn't cost money. But when you go to bed, make sure that your door is closed in your bedroom. And so if there is a fire, you're going to get notified from that smoke alarm that you're regularly checking and testing, changing the batteries twice a year at least, depending on what type of alarm you have and make sure that door is closed. So if a fire starts, the smoke is protected from getting into your room, or if it's in your room, you should wake up and everyone else is protected. So you can get out. Even a door that's not fire-rated provides significant time to figure a way out of that danger.

Todd Miller:

: 00:16:40

So I have to ask back to the cooking fires and I never even thought of that. Are there statistics on whether those are usually created by men or women? Probably not, but I have to ask.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:16:52

I don't think there is. But I think we know the answer. It's gonna be the men. I talk a lot about gender in my human behavior course. And typically what the statistics lay out is that men are genetically faster, but we're also genetically dumber. And we make a lot of poor decisions. We make them a little bit quicker, but we do things to put ourselves in danger a lot. Women get people out safely and do the right thing in the event of a fire. We try and play the hero.

Todd Miller:

: 00:17:28

Well, I have to give a shout out. So I'm thinking about my best friend in seventh grade who will never hear this podcast. But his name was David Rhodes. And I remember one morning we were sitting in study hall next to each other at a table and he smelled like smoke. And I'm like, Man, why do you smell like smoke? And he was kind of one of those early latchkey kids. He had his mom work nights, so he was getting himself up and stuff in the mornings. And he was like, Yeah, my Pop-Tart caught on fire and it caught the cabinets on fire. And I'm like, Dude, did you have to call the fire department? I don't remember the rest of the story, but that was a little shock. He was a little shook up, needless to say.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:18:11

And it's a lot worse now with the building materials that. I assume that wasn't just a few years ago.

Todd Miller:

: 00:18:17

No, that was not just a few years ago.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:18:19

So, the cabinets were probably actually solid oak or solid pine.

Todd Miller:

: 00:18:23

Sure.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:18:24

Now, they're sawdust held together with glue and then laminated with something that looks like a nice wood. Maybe it's even a plastic. So when that ignites, it's just going to, the fire runs rampant.

Todd Miller:

: 00:18:40

Wow, that is something. Well, that kind of leads me into a good next question. So a lot of times here on the show, we talk about building structures that are being built today to be more resilient to weather extremes. And, you know, one of those ends up being fires, especially here in the States and the West Coast and other areas. Kind of curious, are there any practices in terms of construction or perhaps products, and you kind of just touched on them that you'd really like to see done away with in regards to, you know, the fact that they do create a greater fire risk?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:19:20

Yeah, for sure and it's really hard to anything that I'd like to change probably isn't going to change just because, you know, we should be using solid wood. Well, that's probably not going to happen just due to the cost efficiencies and whatnot.

Todd Miller:

: 00:19:34

Sure.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:19:35

But kind of small things, like a big thing that's happened in the industry in the last, I'd say decade or two, is open concept designs in homes. And really every building, but specifically everyone wants to get rid of walls so they can, you know, see either their fridge for some reason from every room in the house. But we want those open concept homes and that's super cool when we're having parties. But when a fire starts, there's no break for that fire. So it can just spread. And it's not the fire that kills us. But as it gets bigger, the the more smoke it produces and it's the smoke that's going to kill us. And if there's no walls to prevent that from happening, like that bedroom door that's closed, if we don't have doors, it's now an open concept. And that smoke gets everywhere very fast. And so if we could limit open concept, that would be a big step for sure. Another big thing is unfinished basements. It drives me crazy when I go into homes and you go down into a basement and you can see all of the exposed construction above and it's typically wood. It's now engineered wood, which is again, a cost saving. It's just as strong, so structurally it's a great product. But in fire at Seneca, we do a lot of live fire demonstrations. And so we show students here's a 2x6 and then here's an engineered 2x6 that has the little, 2x6 with a half inch in the middle. And so structurally, they're both holding the same weight. And we put the load of a kind of a firefighter standing on top of this floor assembly, and then we light a fire underneath. We could see how fast the the engineered product fails comparatively to the the standard traditional would and it it makes a crazy big fire because of the glue and everything else holding it together. But as soon as we do another test after that where we put a single layer of just standard drywall, so it's not type X anything, just the cheapest drywall you can find and it's perfectly fine. They're the same floor assembly again, because that drywall protects. So just making some sort of code change that would require a basement to be finished or finished within a specific like an inspector's coming back within one year or two years something. I'd like it to be months, but even if it was five years instead of doesn't matter, then that would be great just to limit that likelihood of a fire. So when firefighters are showing up that they're they're not going into this complete dangerous area and wondering if the floor is going to fail.

Todd Miller:

: 00:22:25

I never would have thought of that. You're thinking about your basement now, aren't you Seth?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:22:31

Thankfully, I've got real 2x8s or whatever. But, I am, it crossed my mind, yeah.

Todd Miller:

: 00:22:37

Yeah. So you brought up open concept living. What about high ceilings, cathedral ceilings, does that have any impact at all?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:22:48

So depending on how the design is, for sure. So it's going to help with the like the smoke's not going to get to me as quickly. So it's a little bit safer, but it depends on where that cathedral ceiling goes. So if there's kind of a mezzanine or a balcony that goes up and you can see the upper story, now that's more dangerous because now the smoke can spread easier to a place where the fire isn't. And so that maybe is a danger. But just if you have, you know, 12 foot, 15 foot ceilings, the whole story is just higher than that's actually safer because you're you're just giving more time for the smoke to collect up there before it gets to that dangerous face level.

Todd Miller:

: 00:23:33

Interesting.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:23:35

So in our business, we talk, when we're talking with roofing contractors about attic ventilation, we make a point that it's important because in newer construction, the walls of houses are getting a lot more tighter and less breathable. So and I know enough to know oxygen, you know, fuels fire. So I'm curious, is there any studies around that of newer construction methods compared to older styles?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:23:59

Yeah. So the concealed spaces is always a concern in fire protection because after we build the home and that attic is there, most people aren't going up and seeing what's up there. And so any kind of issue that happens is a little bit concerning, but I haven't been active in much of the research in those areas. So I'm not 100% sure there. But definitely changing the amount of oxygen levels can be a big factor. But speaking of kind of insulation, polyurethane foam is another kind of big issue that something would be nice if that went away. When we talk about the Station nightclub or other nightclub fires, that's where the fire was able to spread because that was used as an acoustic foam that can also be used as an insulation. And in the Grenfell Tower fire, that exterior cladding had that aluminum panel with that foam and then that open air channel that allowed it to catch on fire easily. But then it was able to to go up kind of like a chimney, and it actually helped increase the speed of that fire going from there, the low, low levels of the building to the very top in minutes instead of hours. So that's, it's not really something that's allowed, but it's allowed because there's not really a strong check and balance on that. And the good one and the bad one kind of look the same. You know, it's the we have President's Choice up here, no name brand. I don't know if you have stuff like that down there, but it's like the Oreo and the no-name Oreo, the Boreo or whatever. And so you know they they look the same and taste the same. But you know, one has been proven to be safe for fire protection and one's not. But as a fire inspector if I'm not really educated on that, they look identical. And if I don't see it before it's actually installed on the walls, now it looks identical and I can sign off on that without really understanding.

Todd Miller:

: 00:26:10

Well, you mentioned the Grenfell fire and I was going to mention that also, but because it's been talked a lot about a lot in the metal building metal construction industry. And you know, one of the concerns there, as I recall, was, you know, it had the aluminum or the metal skin panels with the insulation. And one of the concerns was they they had, if I remember right, they had put laps in those panels right above windows. So the fire started coming out the window, immediately hit that lap in the panel and started to spread vertically from there as well.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:26:49

Right, and I'm pretty sure they also changed the the material. I think it was a zinc, maybe instead of an aluminum. And so it was able to ignite a bit easier and they were able to save 300,000 pounds or so. You know, those kind of decisions shouldn't be made when it comes to life safety. But this is, again, going back to that at the uneducated and maybe poorer people. In that particular instance, that building was in an area that was being gentrified and they wanted that building that was ugly to look nicer. And so they tried to do it as cheaply as they could. And, you know, and that was the end result that hopefully we're all learning from. But over the past five years, the the back and forth in the courts has seemed like there's still resistance to making significant changes that would help prevent that in the future. And we're dealing with it in Canada as well, with the number of buildings that could have similar facades on them.

Todd Miller:

: 00:27:58

Well, I remember sitting in meetings where that was being discussed. And, you know, most of us who had years and years of construction experience, that idea of the seam above the window completely blew our minds. We had never even thought about that. Now, the guys who that was their business making those panels, they were very familiar with it. But, you know, the rest of us, even though lots of construction experience, knew nothing about it. Any other devastating fires that come to mind where the building material or choice of materials was a big contributing factor to what happened?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:28:34

For sure, yeah. I would say similar to before Grenfell ever happened, there was a, the Summerland Leisure Center in Douglas, Isle of Man and the I think it's the 50th anniversary this year in August of that fire and similar material. But it was used in the the ceiling to make instead of glass windows. It was this nice plastic and unfortunately they had a fire and now it's raining molten plastic on people and you know it was one of the the biggest loss of life for a fire event outside of wartime for a very long time. And you know, they're lessons that hopefully we should have learned. Don't use this as a building material. But I think everyone always kind of thinks that they're smarter than the other person or that's not going to happen to me. And so we keep using these same things, similar to going back to the Station nightclub, you know, pyrotechnics inside, indoors drives me insane that that's allowed. I don't like it at all unless it's a professional. You know, if it's July 1st for Canada Day or 4th for Independence Day, then have a professional shoot them off. But having just people in their backyard, there's so many injuries and fires that happened there. And then now we're putting them inside and a bunch of people that are intoxicated. It's a recipe for disaster and for the polyurethane foam. It's also in our house. It's everywhere. Like furniture now is not what it used to be. And so you cut a couch open and it's just a big slab of plastic foam. And so these ordinary combustible fires end up turning into pool fires that we're dealing with in homes. And that's why they spread so quickly. So that that's definitely on my list of materials I wish would go away for for designs. This is more of a zoning thing, but there's been quite a few industrial fires that the location to residential constantly blows my mind. That in Toronto we had the Sunrise propane explosion and homes right across the street and a cemetery on the other side. And then this facility just filled with propane cylinders. And, you know, it's reminds me of the the West Fertilizer Company in West, Texas, similar to churches and schools and residential, all right nearby. In Tianjin, China, the Beirut explosion, those two ports very close by, significant residential areas. And we get these large death tolls because of just the location of how the the construction was allowed to play out. And I don't know which one came first, but at some point somebody said, yes, you can put this dangerous thing beside the safe thing or the safe thing beside the dangerous thing. And that's something I think should kind of be considered.

Todd Miller:

: 00:31:53

Makes a lot of sense. You know, it's been probably 45 years now, but I remember the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire down in Kentucky, and I think a lot of what happened there was blocked exits and just people couldn't get out was what led to the loss of life. Is that what you recall as well or?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:32:12

Absolutely, yeah. So that was a kind of a retrofit expansion. You know, this is cool, but we can add this and we can do that, and then all of a sudden there's not enough exit capacity because that used to go outside and now it goes into this other cool room and it just gets to be like a maze. And one of the things in human behavior is understanding what people will be like in a fire and are they familiar with a place or not? And if they're not, they're very predictable in what they're going to do. So they're either going to follow the crowd or they're going to go back to the exit that they came in. And in that case, they tried it. It was a revolving door that couldn't be used. And now we've made code changes since. And because multiple fires have found that the revolving doors are horrible when everyone's trying to use them. So now we have to have a standard door on either side so that they can be used in the event of a fire. That's kind of similar to the Iroquois theaters. Well, where they found this super cool, you know, in England, they're using this latching mechanism for the exits and they like, Oh, cool, let's do that. It's fancy. And they never really considered that nobody's going to know what it is. And so when people tried to use the exits, they couldn't open the door. And then when they finally figured it out, then they had to open inwards instead of outwards. And then everyone that's near the fire is pushing a little bit, and the people up at the door are getting pushed into the door and it quickly becomes a mess. And they also had decorations to make them the building look bigger. And so they painted exits on the the walls that look like you were like there was a corridor that you could go into. And so people started going to that exit. And then once they got there, they found out it was just a mural and then they were trapped and they couldn't get out. So just all those little like you think it's just, oh, I'll turn around and go to the exit. You can't, that was your 30-second window, your two minute window, and now it's too late. You're one of the 600 people that's going to die in the Iroquois theater.

Todd Miller:

: 00:34:27

Well, I know one of your subjects you enjoy talking about is human behavior in the event of a fire, which I just think is fascinating. Before I read about you, you know, being very knowledgeable on that subject, I never even thought about it. So what are some of the, you've already shared a few, but what are some of the things that tend to be natural human behavior in the event of a fire that sometimes gets us into further trouble even?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:34:53

Yeah, there's there's a lot of things. The one thing when we think about people is they're so unpredictable. But that's in typical life. As soon as we get into a an emergency situation, everyone becomes hyper-focused and we can actually predict it fairly well. But that's very situational as well. So the same person, I can't predict what I'm going to do in a fire for every situation because it's going to change. So if I'm at home and it's my home, I'm you can almost guarantee that I'm going to try and fight that fire. Because I care about this place and I don't want to lose all the things that are in this home if I have to. The person over at my house repairing something and there's a fire, they're more likely to say, Oh, that's too bad. I'll call 911 and they're out the door, right? They're not necessarily going to help me. They might, but now it's more of a debate. But you take me, I was just fighting that fire, being a hero. But as soon as you take me and put me in a different situation, and maybe I'm at work now and I'm in a classroom and a fire starts, I'm going to more likely ask everybody to leave and I'm going to follow them because we can have class in a different classroom. We can do it online. There's no sense risking our life for this situation now. So just the the location, the environment, what's happening around us completely changes. Is there somebody here that I care about? So is there kids that are nearby or a spouse that you have to find because they're not with you immediately? I'm not going to leave that building until I find those people. So the more we understand about the people we expect in that building, you know, how how old are they and is that going to impact their ability to evacuate? And if we understand those things, we can make proper training, We can design systems to actually make people do what we want them to do so we can control lighting, to make people take certain paths and we can make sure we have enough exit capacity. So like I said, with the familiarity in there, going back to the Station nightclub, most people tried to go back the way they came in. So that that main entrance and it didn't have the capacity to handle all of those people. If we designed knowing that's what's going to happen instead of we did the calculation, we can have four exits, but we have four exits. Problem solved. By code, you've met the requirement, good for you. But I know when that building gets put into service, everybody in that building except the workers are going to know the main entrance and that's it. They're going to be unaware of the other exits that are just behind the bar and just around the the the stage. And then even in that event, again, people did finally see, Oh, there's an exit there behind the stage. And when they tried to use it, the the bouncers kind of got into bouncer mode and said, no, this is for the the band. Like, you can't come here. This is for the band area. You got to go somewhere else and kind of protected it. And that was maybe 15, 20 seconds. But in that particular fire, they had 90 seconds since the the pyrotechnic hit the ceiling until you were dead if you were in there. And so 90 seconds, 30 seconds, they spent thinking it was part of the show because it caught the roof on fire. People are intoxicated like, Oh, you know, or, oh, my God, look what happened. But they're still kind of not really reacting. And then another 30 seconds to maybe go to that door. And now they really only had 30 seconds to try and smash a window to get to that exit that's now already blocked or try and get to another one. So the time can get used up fast. But when when we look at those even just talking about that, one of the big things that I always try to get across is that people do not panic in a fire. That's one of the that every time I see on the news, it's one of the words that just makes me cringe when people say like literally it's like, Oh, my head literally blew off. Well, no, it didn't, because we're talking right now. So misuse of the word. So panic is, if people panic, they do something to put themselves in danger. And most of the time, that's not the case. Somebody ran out of the the building and pushed me out of the way. They weren't panicking. They were saving their lives. They were doing what's expected in the event of. They rushed, they were stressed, they were scared, but they didn't panic. And if you're familiar with the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, that's another industrial fire that happened in New York in 1911. And so it was just after your third birthday?

Todd Miller:

: 00:40:14

Yeah, probably, that's about right.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:40:17

So, you know, this fire started in this factory and they had this really kind of cheap material that was very easy to ignite. So, think kind of just crumpled up paper. And so the fire started, spread very quickly, and people tried to fight the fire. They went, there wasn't sprinklers, so they went to the the hose and they couldn't turn the water on because it was rusted shut. And so they kind of banged away at it, got it to open, and then the water started pouring out of the hose because it was rotted. And so they couldn't use the hose. So again, that's a delay. The fire is getting bigger and bigger. And so now people start trying to evacuate and so they go to an exit. But the exit is it's locked, actually chained shut. And so this is, you know, over 100 years ago, there wasn't a strong union presence. And so people were they were actually trying to start unions. And so the the doors were changed shut so people couldn't unionize. I guess not great in a fire because now you can't escape. And so they tried another exit, one that opened, but it opened inwards. And by the time they tried to open the doors, people started collapsing because of smoke inhalation and they were incapacitated and they couldn't open the door because now a body is blocking it. Then they went to an elevator. Some people got out in the elevators, but it was one of those ones where somebody had to control it and can only fit so many people. So a few trips got done. And everyone else had to go to the window and there was a fire escape. So they started using the fire escape. But the same maintenance practice that was done there was done there. And it pulled off the the wall and everyone on the fire escape died. So now everyone that's left on that floor has a choice. So they're either going to be burned to death because this fire is is massive or they're going to jump out of an eight story, nine story window and maybe die, probably die. But I'm definitely dead if I stay here because of the amount of smoke and heat. And so, you know, if the alarm goes off and I just jump out that window. That's panic, right? I didn't look around and see like, Oh, sorry. I bumped into the wall there. This is a clear they've tried everything they could and now they're just making a decision for life, safety for them, for their survival that hopefully none of us ever have to make. But it's not panic. And so that's always something I want to get across, that people do things. They actually help each other. In the World Trade Center during 911, there's a lot of photos that not as many as there would be if it happened today because most people didn't have cell phones. But the pictures, everyone standing very calm, packed in a stairwell, but very calm, walking down a set of stairs and helping each other evacuate. And I couldn't imagine a scenario where it could be more stressful and you would maybe panic and people weren't, you know, so they were maybe walking a bit quick. But panic is not something we see rarely ever.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:43:45

Interesting.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:45

Interesting.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:43:47

Are there platforms out there currently for you know, you to get this behavioral information in front of architects or code officials, maybe to influence how buildings are designed moving forward, you know, taking all this into consideration?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:44:02

Yeah, I try to just get my students as educated as possible and they can spread the word out in the industry because the more people are educated about the impact of decisions we make, the, the better it is for everyone. And so our students get into consulting firms. They get into places where they're the authority-having jurisdiction. And so the more of them that are out there and there's thousands now, but they help kind of educate people that maybe aren't aware of those things. And that's a general problem for fire protection. I think a lot of things get changed without consideration for the impact on fire. So it's a great idea. Things like solar panels, you know, we're saving and we're creating energy and, you know, making making life better. But what's the impact if there's a fire? And has anybody talked to the fire department? Because now there's this charged system that I can't just spray water on your home anymore. And when I enter in there, what's the impact on my life? And if that's melting, what's off-gassing? What is the products of combustion that are there that maybe could put me in danger? So it solves one problem, but very often it creates a problem for us.

Todd Miller:

: 00:45:31

Yeah, kind of creates a new world that needs to be addressed and educated on. Well, you've touched on a few things, Derek, that have to do with building code. Anything else come to mind as far as changes you would like to see made in building codes?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:45:46

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of things that would be good. I guess the limiting of those facade materials, which I think is something that's going to to come. And then just generally materials that we use a lot of flammable cheap products, and it's hard with the consumer to balance with inflation going up, but we're going to cut corners to keep costs down. So it makes sense that way. But it's at a cost of, if we have a fire, it's going to run rampant through my home because of the the materials that are in it. I think, like I said before, using the code, not as it's the bare minimum, whatever the code says is the least you can do. So understanding that, yes, these four exits meet the requirement for this occupant load, but how is it going to be used if that's the main entrance or this exit goes to the parking lot? I know that's the one that everyone's going to go to, especially in Canada. I'm always thinking, okay, it's February. Well, it's March now, but it's February. It's really cold. People are going to stay inside as long as they can. So nobody's going to use that exit for four months of the year. And we don't get to decide when the fire happens. I'm not taking an exit that's going to put me out into a snowbank in the middle of a field. And so I know that's basically a three exit building now for 25% of the year. So those are all things that it's not really a code change, but it's educating people, too, and companies to go above and beyond. I think I mentioned the unfinished basements already, so that that would be something nice to see. And then I guess more in the fire code would be for people that have an issue evacuating. So somebody that has a physical limitation and they require assistance. After the Grenfell fire, one of the big things they said was that there should be something they called a PEEP, which is a Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan. And so for you as a person, what do you need to get out of this building? So most people, you get up and go, but if I'm in a wheelchair and I'm on the sixth story, how do I get out? How are you going to get me out? And so that's something that they've kind of resisted in facilitating because of the cost. And I think those are the considerations where we have to say that the government assists because it's what's right or there's a requirement in the code that for anybody that's in this type of building, there has to be some sort of consideration. And whether it's called a PEEP or something else, we need to make sure that people can safely evacuate.

Todd Miller:

: 00:48:49

Yeah, I mean, Spider-Man's not going to suddenly scramble the side of that ten story building and rescue you out of a window or something, so.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:48:56

Exactly.

Todd Miller:

: 00:48:56

So, something I have thought about in recent years as we have seen a real move in the fire-prone areas of the United States for fire-resistant housing. You know, and we do all kinds of things, you know, steel skins for fire resistance from the outside. I mean, things that don't melt easily, things that, you know, obviously are inflammable. But by the same token, am I worrying too much? Because then I think, okay, are we making it worse if there's an interior fire that starts inside that structure now, it can't burn out. So to some degree, are we making things worse?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:49:36

Yeah, there's no.

Todd Miller:

: 00:49:38

Tradeoffs.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:49:39

Yeah. And so, like, when we make one thing better, often something else is going to suffer. So, you know, a lot of people now don't have wooden countertops. There's a lot more of the granite or marble. So that's, it's expensive, but it's great for fire protection because that's not going to burn. But right above it is those cabinets made of sawdust that used to be made out of oak or something else. So there's always these tradeoffs in in what we're doing and that there just always seems to be an issue with fire able to spread. But there's been a lot of good changes and all of that exterior stuff is great. Inside, you know, GFI plugs and things like that that help prevent that kind of issues before too close to water. Maybe we get a short, we get a fire started that way. But we have things that have changed that are, that are for the better. But every time we seem to make an advance, it lets us say, okay, well, now we can be more dangerous with this other thing. We don't just make it safer. It's like, okay, well now I can. I have a seatbelt? Now I can drive faster. That's kind of the the response all the time is, okay, now what can I get away with? But we've started moving towards more wooden construction, high-rise, heavy timber. And so we have, it always initially makes people scared that we have, it's just all made out of wood. But what we have is actually if we need kind of a 6 inch by 6 inch column, that column is actually going to be 12 inches by 12 inches or something like that. And so we have all these extra sacrificial layers that are going to be around that column. And so it actually makes it very fire resistant. It is going to contribute to the fire, but wood can char and help protect itself and it slows down the burning. Some of the advancements for for those have been how they connect those big pieces of wood and some of the the CLT, the cross laminate timber, how they connect it together with adhesives and whatnot. We found that that maybe wasn't the best. So they've made better adhesives and they've also made better connection so that that fire protection has advanced even within the idea that we've had. We constantly make it better.

Todd Miller:

: 00:52:11

Very interesting. Well, as we've talked about this, I have remembered the rest of the story with my seventh grade friend. So, you know, and you talked again about cabinets and countertops. So somehow he was able to put the fire out, which just befuddled me how this little 12-year-old kid put this fire out. But his big worry was, Oh, my mom's going to kill me because the cabinets look really bad, but I'm just glad he was safe. He's gone on to a productive life. So, you know, I have to think, you know, again, our audience members are folks in design and construction and remodeling. This has been a fascinating conversation. No doubt, we've gotten all of them thinking, you know, what do I need to be thinking about? Any suggestions just for those folks to be able to learn more or get themselves better educated? I mean, maybe they just go to their local fire department and say, tell me everything I should know. I mean, what what suggestions might you have for them?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:53:12

Absolutely. Yeah. I think talking with any local authority-having jurisdiction is a great first step for our program. We're moving towards what we call high-flex learning. So it's flexible. I'm going to be in-person teaching people in-person, but if you want to do it online, you can do it that way as well. So we're trying to be as adaptive to the new world as possible. So if anybody's interested, you can go to senecacollege.ca/fire and check out what we offer. But I think just in general for fire protection, one of the key things is to just let ethics be your guiding principles every day. So don't do what's easy or what's right. What's right. Don't do what's easy for the day, do what's right, because shortcuts can lead to death in our industry. And so it's something that every day think about, is this going to put somebody in danger? Even fire inspectors, I say, You know, you don't want to be the bad person and kind of wag your finger at somebody. But if somebody is doing something that's a life safety risk, we need to to write that up and let them know. Because if the police officers just let everybody go, every time there was a speeding ticket, everybody would keep speeding. It's the Oh, I did get a speeding ticket. I'm going to drive a bit slower and maybe it's only for a few months, but it's still. Is that, Oh, yeah, I forgot. That's a real thing. So sometimes the enforcement is important, but for, generally for any career, don't ever think that your learning is over and it doesn't always have to be focused on exactly what your career is. So I'm part of my local Society of Fire Protection Engineers. It would be great, every state is going to have a local chapter as well. There's also the international, so we're part of a bigger global group, the Society of Fire Protection Engineers. So you can join that one. The local ones are great to meet people in the area and start meeting professionals that are in the same industry in some sort of capacity. So I love when people come to our local chapter that are members of the wood industry or the steel industry or, you know, whatever it is. And even if you have kind of a goal to promote whatever your wares are, it's still great for us to have that discussion. And now you see how I'm thinking about that in fire protection and you go back and adjust your product or, you know, whatever. And for us to talk with you and you to talk with us, it's it's great to do. I find if we don't talk with people outside of our our niche, then we just get in that echo chamber like, you know, there is on all the social media, it's like I am right because the five people I talk to all agree. And so, you know, it's something that I think it's good to see other points of view because you can still be in agreeance. But they might also add something that you just never thought of and still support your idea, or they can completely take it out because whatever they say, Oh my God, I never thought of that. That's, I can't believe we're still doing this because that's a great point. So I think meeting people, it's great for your your networking, building your career, but it's great for that knowledge that you don't have that maybe you don't know that you need.

Todd Miller:

: 00:56:53

Hmm. Well, I have to tell you, this has been fascinating. This is about our 80th episode, and I think it's my favorite this far. This has been great.

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:57:01

Me, too.

Todd Miller:

: 00:57:02

So we're about to wrap up or kind of wrapping up the business end of things, as we call it, and going to move on to a couple of fun things. But is there anything we haven't covered so far that you'd like to share with our audience?

Derek Gruchy:

: 00:57:15

I, I think just, you know, every every day you go to work, you're impacting some stranger's life. And so just think about how you want that impact to be. Do you want it to be a good one or a bad one? And so I kind of do that in my job as well. Everything I do is going to be a positive or a negative in somebody's future that I may never meet. For pieces of equipment you're going to use, for specifications, ask questions about things, check people's certifications, or listings of products. Because if something seems like it's too good to be true, it probably is. Alright, so be that sprinkler that's half price or that drywall that's like a quarter of the price. It's probably not rated for what it needs to be. So really look into it and then maybe you did find the the unicorn, but probably not. Things like lithium ion batteries. We never really talked about that too much. But that's a, you know, a big concern that we can't do too much about in construction, I guess. But thinking about that as a potential fuel source in a fire that can have something called thermal runaway. So once it starts, we can't stop it. And so now we're starting to move towards electric vehicles and electric tools. And just there's more and more footprint of these batteries being everywhere. And so for construction side of things, how do we deal with that? Because the car is going to be parked in your garage. So maybe now we have to think about does a garage need to be a concrete bunker instead of, you know, wood frame and whatever else? That there needs to be a slight adjustment there, that it'll burn away and protect the rest of the house in the event of a fire, because we're starting to see more of these things. And, you know, if you get in an accident with a typical car and I love electric vehicles and batteries and everything else, but just the awareness of this that if you get an accident with your car now, you know if it's going to catch on fire or not within the first 10 minutes. With an electric vehicle, it can be two weeks later. And so you could say, oh, that wasn't so bad. You know, I can drive this home. And then a week or two later, your car is on fire because there was some damage to those batteries. And so those are the things that we have to to think about. It's the same with cell phones. People were charging them and they were lighting bedrooms on fire. And there was a laptop that went off in a in an airplane a few weeks ago. And, you know, the gases that are produced are highly flammable, which causes the thermal runaway. It creates its own oxygen so it can burn under water once it gets to the thermal runaway. Very dangerous, but it's also very toxic, the hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide, all of these super dangerous things. So when we think about fire protection, we we are always kind of reactionary and we try and get out ahead of things. But until we know this new thing is developed, we don't know that it's a problem. And now that that these fires are happening, we have to try and solve that. And how do firefighters show up to these car fires and whatnot? It's a different tactic that they now have to be trained. And so, yeah, those are the things that I guess I'd like to add.

Todd Miller:

: 01:00:52

Wow, this has been interesting. Man, I have learned so much. Good stuff. Thank you very much for sharing your time with us today. Well, we are going to move on to something, an option for you that's a little more fun called our rapid fire questions. So this is something we do on most shows. Seven questions, maybe serious, maybe silly. All you got to do is give a quick answer to each one. And our audience need to understand if Derek agrees this, he doesn't know what we're going to ask. So, Derek, are you up to the challenge of rapid fire?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:01:23

Nah. Yeah, for sure. Let's do it.

Todd Miller:

: 01:01:27

Rapid fire may be the wrong thing to call it, I'm thinking now too. Anyway. Okay, we will alternate asking. Seth, you want to ask the first one?

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:01:37

Sure, question number one. You're trying to survive a zombie apocalypse. Who is the one person you most want on your team?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:01:46

Rick Grimes.

Todd Miller:

: 01:01:49

There you go.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:01:51

Walking Dead fans?

Todd Miller:

: 01:01:56

He's been through it. Okay, next question. What is your favorite traditional Canadian food? And I feel like this has to be something I could go get at Swiss Chalet.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:02:06

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's that's a pretty good one. Oh, that's tough. Poutine is very good. Yeah, but I do love a good Nanaimo bar. So if dessert counts as food, I'd have to go with Nanaimo bar I think.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:02:19

Interesting.

Todd Miller:

: 01:02:20

Good answers.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:02:21

Yeah, the Swiss Chalet. That's an inside joke with Todd and I from about a decade ago. We still don't understand what that sauce was actually supposed to taste like, but.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:02:32

Magic, it tastes like magic.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:02:36

Alright, question number three. What would you like to be remembered for?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:02:42

Oh, I think somebody that cares and always does the best to help people.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:02:50

Beautiful.

Todd Miller:

: 01:02:53

That's awesome. Obviously shows through, yep. Okay, next question. If you had to eat a crayon, what color of crayon would you choose?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:03:01

Probably the white one.

Todd Miller:

: 01:03:04

White one, seems the most anemic.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:03:08

Then nobody would know I ate a crayon.

Todd Miller:

: 01:03:10

There you go.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:03:11

They're all going to taste the same, but at least that would just whiten my teeth maybe.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:03:17

So you may have already shared your favorite one, but we're creating the opportunity for you to share another one. Do you have a favorite dad joke you can share with us?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:03:28

Oh, yeah.

Todd Miller:

: 01:03:30

He's got a whole file full of them.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:03:33

That's a tough one. Hmm. Well, I do love a good comic. And why not? So let's do one with some comic theme. So, you know, the Batman movies. A few ago, they were filming, and there was a helicopter stunt, and it caught fire. And the crew all yelled out Christian Bail!! Joke's not going to work in a few years.

Todd Miller:

: 01:04:06

Yeah, that's true. I need to use that one, though. And we haven't even touched on the fact that Derek is also a magician. But we'll have you back in another episode.Maybe we'll film that one and let you do some cards tricks.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:04:20

Yeah, for sure. Be my pleasure.

Todd Miller:

: 01:04:23

Next question, Seth.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:04:25

Okay, I asked the last one, but I'll ask another one.

Todd Miller:

: 01:04:28

Oh, you did.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:04:29

What is your favorite season of the year?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:04:32

Ooh, I would have to say the fall. Yeah, I like the, the temperature's pretty good. You still get a bit of summer seasoning in there, but you can you can do things without. You're not sweating and you're not freezing. You kind of just, you get to wear what you want. You're not letting the temperature decide your clothing.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:04:54

Yeah, it's my favorite, too. We get about a week and a half of it here in Ohio unfortunately.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:01

Yeah, we don't get much.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:05:02

Yeah.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:03

Okay. Well, I apologize, Seth. I will ask the last question. So, Derek, are you a dog person or cat person? Or maybe neither.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:05:13

Dog person.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:13

Are ya?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:05:13

Through and through.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:15

That's our common answer. Although someone said, you know, if I'm a cat, I don't have to go outside to do my business. So there is some benefit to that.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:05:23

That's true.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:27

Well, Derek, this has been a real. Oh, I'm sorry. Was someone going to say something?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:05:30

Oh, I was just going to ask if you knew the Seven Dwarfs's favorite state?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:05:37

Oh-hi-ho!

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:05:41

We should.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:44

Yeah, I should have known that one.

Todd Miller:

: 01:05:45

Off to work we go. Well, Derek, this has been great. Very eye opening, great information for our audience. So if folks would want to get in touch with you for some reason or maybe want to learn more about Seneca College or just follow up, follow what you're up to, how can they most easily do that?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:06:03

Yeah, I guess @Senecafire72. That would be our our handle for Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, whatever. And then senecacollege.ca/fire, that'll take you to our our website. And then for me it's just Derek Gruchy, nice and boring for all the same stuff. So I'd be happy to talk with anybody that's interested in learning more about fire or stopping the fire, the protection property.

Todd Miller:

: 01:06:31

Stopping the fire there, yeah.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:06:32

I'm not helping any arsonists.

Todd Miller:

: 01:06:34

You're a wealth of knowledge. This has been great, thank you. And we'll have all that in the show notes as well, so folks can see those different things there as well, so.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:06:45

Perfect.

Todd Miller:

: 01:06:45

Well, thank you so much, Derek. This has been a real pleasure. And I'd like to thank our audience, too.

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:06:52

Well, Todd you are skipping something. We do need to recap challenge words to explain the weird words and segues that they heard throughout the episode.

Todd Miller:

: 01:07:00

Yes, yes. So we were all successful in our challenge words. Seth, you had the word?

Seth Heckaman:

: 01:07:06

I had sacrificial, which Derek used as well. So he gets bonus points for working in two.

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:07:12

I was going to use Spider-Man too, and just totally show off.

Todd Miller:

: 01:07:16

Well, I had Spider-Man. Derek probably had the hardest of the three words. Your word was?

Derek Gruchy:

: 01:07:23

Nailed it.

Todd Miller:

: 01:07:24

Phlebitis. He worked it in well. I think most people didn't even notice him using that word. Ahh, thank you, Seth. I always forget that, appreciate the reminder. Well, thank you again to our audience for tuning into this episode of Construction Disruption with Derek Gruchy, program coordinator at Seneca College in Fire Protection Engineering Technology. So we encourage you, please watch for future episodes of our podcast. We're always blessed with great guests, but this has been a particularly special one. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or on YouTube until the next time we're together. Keep on disrupting, keep on challenging things out there, and don't forget to have a positive impact on everyone you encounter. Make them smile, encourage them; two simple yet powerful things we can all do to change the world. So God bless and take care. This is Isaiah Industries signing off until the next episode of Construction Disruption.

Todd Miller:

: 01:08:29

Intro/Outro: This podcast is produced by Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building products.

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