In this episode, Amanda & Kelby dive into what sex really looks like after the honeymoon phase in long-term relationships. Together, they open up about the pressures, expectations, and unspoken myths around sex, sharing personal stories of healing, communication, and growth. Both Amanda & Kelby found that sex in long-term relationships ebbs and flows, and has ups and downs, and this is something they wish more people spoke about. From unlearning damaging cultural narratives and addressing sexual trauma, to building safety and embracing playfulness with your partner, Amanda and Kelby get real about the ups and downs of intimacy over time. Tune in for honest, relatable insights on everything from navigating shame and initiating sex to embracing pleasure at every stage. Whether you’re struggling with mismatched desire, working through old wounds, or just curious about how to keep sex meaningful and fun beyond the early days, this episode is here to support you.

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Love under the scope.

Welcome to Love Under the Scope. I'm Amanda Durocher. And I'm Kelby

Knutt. And this is a podcast where we get

into the realities, the ups, the

downs, and all of the beautiful facets of being in

a long term committed relationship with

another human being. And this week, we wanted to dive

into the topic of sex, but, specifically,

what sex is like after the honeymoon phase. I think there's

a lot of expectations around sex

and a lot of fear too, and I think it can put us

into kind of an interesting place when we finally

do enter into a committed relationship. And we have all these

notions of, like, what it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to

feel, and it can be kind of daunting then to take

on, like, how we go about our sex life.

I do think there's a lot of expectations around sex and what it's

gonna be like and what it's forever supposed to be like. And

I know that was something that, specifically in my twenties, I'd really get in my

head about. Yeah. That age when you're coming out

of your teen years and you're supposed to be, like, an adult who

knows exactly how to have sex in the best way possible

with, like, anybody who happens to be your partner. Right? Like, you can read their

mind and they can read yours, and you're just having mind blowing sex all

the time. Did you watch Sex and the City? I did not. Okay. I was

a Sex and the City girl from, like, middle school. So, like, that show really

it just it put things in my head around the idea of sex and how,

like, every time you're gonna have this crazy sexual experience, and you're gonna

have a story to write and tell about it. And, yeah, it just really kinda

messed with my head now that I look back on it. Yeah. That's a

that's a big one. Like, media, TV shows, movies, they give us

this kind of skewed idea or maybe just

fantastical, unreal idea of what sex is gonna

be. And, usually, it's a a lot of the time, it's

like a one night stand that they're showing us. Right? And these people just happen

to know exactly what to do with each other's bodies, and it

can be kind of silly. Yeah. I know. I'm laughing about it now because when

you see it in the movies, unless it's a comedy, there's no, like, awkward

moment when it comes to sex. And I don't know. I'm in a

long term relationship, and there can still sometimes, I don't know, be an awkward moment.

Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, again, like, you're

not mind readers. You're not like, oh, this guy likes exactly

this at this exact moment. That's what it seems to be in

media and TV shows and movies. It's I always laugh

at, like, they cut from people are on a first date or they meet at

a bar to, like, they're back at the apartment. They open the door. They're just

ripping each other's clothes off. So they're being thrown around, like, onto the

kitchen counter and just absolutely ravaging each other. And it's

like, maybe that happens every once in a while, but that's just

so unrealistic to get into people's heads that this is what good

sex looks like. This exactly. Totally. And I'm also

thinking too I told you before this episode, I can't talk about sex without talking

about being a rape survivor because my healing journeys were really intertwined with both. But

I just kinda laugh about, like, if I was ever to have a one night

stand, which I've actually never had one. But if I was, and I went back

to somebody's house and they started throwing me around, like, trauma responses left and right,

it would be like, trauma response. Like, so I would start crying.

Yes. That can still happen for me in sex. I can cry, but I would

start crying and, like, run away. But they make it seem like that's what sexy

sex is. So I used to judge myself for that truthfully because I never

wanted to be thrown around. And it's okay if you do. I just, like, personally

never did, and I would judge myself for that. Well, I think what we're getting

at is this expectation that, like, that's just what's gonna happen no

matter what. Like, no communication Yeah. Right, is there of, like, do

you like this? Is it okay if I Yeah. Rip your shirt off?

Is it okay if I freaking bite you or whatever the hell is going on?

Right? And, certainly, that can be what some people want. But, yeah, we're

talk like, first date or first sexual encounter with

somebody, I just don't know if it's gonna look like that. That. I mean, I

can tell you, certainly, when I lost my virginity, like, it looked

nothing like that. I think that could be the case for most

people. Nothing like that. Yeah. Absolutely. Nothing like that. Yeah.

Yeah. So that kind of brings us into the topic of

we're gonna move into the idea of sex after the honeymoon phase, but let's

just briefly touch on sex before you even meet

your long term partner. And I know for me, we kind of have different

stories, Amanda and I, but for me, I was a person

who would have these casual sexual encounters. I had

some longer term boyfriends, but certainly not as long as

my relationship now. And so I can speak to the

fact that I actually would use sex as a tool. I almost feel

like I was in my head, I was, like, bartering with these men. Like, here,

I will give you sex. And in return, you will give

me love or you will fill this void

inside of me. And spoiler alert, that never

happened. Yeah. I told you before this episode that when I first

met Evan, there was one night I wanted to have sex after a night out

drinking, and he was like, I'm not gonna have sex with you. You're drunk. It

was mind blowing for me because my experience with sex is different where I'm a

rape survivor. And so my first experience with sexual activity, I don't even

wanna call it sex, was when I was 15 and I was raped. So that

has very much played into my relationship with sex and having

to heal. So when I met Evan, he was the first man who respected me

in my body, and it was, like, mind blowing. And I was also

very confused. I was like, is that right? Because, you know, you're also in college

and you're like, everybody has strong sex. But I look back as actually really sweet

that I met this man when I needed to meet this man, to be honest,

who, yeah, he just respected me. Yeah. And, ideally,

your long term partner does. Right? Anybody

who's listening, that's kind of the relationships that we speak to

are relationships that have respect and mutual love and

understanding and care. Right? So I think with that assumption,

before we meet that person, and I'm speaking to my own story. Right?

I was kind of fumbling in the dark. I had some fun experiences. I don't

wanna make it sound like it was all bad. I had some really fun experiences

sexually, and I don't have a lot of regrets. I really don't.

Maybe, like, one or two. But mostly, I just know that I was having

sex for reasons that I wasn't aware of at the time, but

I know that I was trying to get something. I was kind of like, will

you be the one to stay? Mhmm. Will you be the one to love me?

How about you? What if I do everything that you might want?

Will that make you stay or whatever? So when I

finally met Kai, then it was like I didn't have to do

that anymore. We enjoyed having sex, but there was a

different vibe of, like, I'm not using this as a tool

anymore. It's no longer me desperately trying to get

somebody to stay because he's just told me he's gonna stay. Yeah. It's

making me think about how I think sex has power.

And I think when we use it as a tool like that, we're, like,

aware that it's powerful even if we're unconscious of it, but it's

not the real power we can gain from having a healthy sex life

or having sex with somebody who's safe, if that makes sense. You're

right. There is, like, an unspoken power about that. And

that's why I did have fun with it because there were times where I saw

my own power, and I saw that I could use it for something, but it

I wasn't getting love. Yeah. And I wasn't getting respect. You

know? So when Kai came around and I had that, there was this

paradigm shift of, like, oh, I'm not trying

to gain something from this anymore. For you,

is that when you realized it was more about connection?

Connection and safety. And it's not that

we said that out loud. Oh, this is about safety now. But there was

yeah. It was an unspoken understanding of, we both want to want

this. Like, we don't want to force this on each other,

which even not being a survivor of rape, there are still

times where I felt like I didn't have a choice. And it's different.

You know? It's not physically forced on you, but there were certainly times where I

was like, I have to do this because I have to receive something

or I don't wanna disappoint this person. Like, they really want it.

Right? Which, god, I think that's so many women. We feel that way. I

have to do this because it could be any reason. Right? I totally agree

with that. That's something I had to work through with Evan too. You know? At

the beginning of our relationship, there were plenty of times that we just have sex

and I didn't want to. And so one of the greatest

gifts I learned or I gained throughout my sex life with Evan is the

ability to say no. And, honestly, Evan helped me with that. Evan was like, I

don't want to do it. You're obviously not in the mood, and that was new

for me too. I was like, what? You want me to want to do it

too? Evan's the one where I learned that sex was for two people's pleasure and

not just one person's pleasure, which makes me really sad for my younger

teenage self that she didn't even understand that sex could be

about her as well. Yes. Oh, gosh. And I

don't think we even plan to really talk about this today, but I think this

is a really important subject. When you meet somebody where you're

not using sex as, like, a bartering tool is what I'll

call it, and then you have the option to say no.

And then I'm unlearning that still where it's not, you know, oh, I have to

do this because it makes Kai happy. And I've also read

online that in order to keep a couple connected, you have to have sex once

every two weeks. That's the ideal number. Right? So, oh, it's been two weeks.

Let's go do it. And then it's this thing that's becomes very utilitarian

going through the motions. And one of the best things I've read actually in

I think it's in Come As You Are, which is by Emily Nagoski. She She

talks about taking a break from sex. If you feel that way with your partner,

literally taking, you know, two months off from sex.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Honestly, I found that throughout my own

journey was specifically when I was really in the depths of healing from

sexual trauma, and I was reliving it daily and, like, seeing horrible

things that happened to me. That was really when I had to learn to say

no, and I had to learn to listen to my body and what it wanted.

And it was really healing because there were all these messages mixed in

my head that needed to be unlearned. And now that they are unlearned, it's so

much easier and flowy when I have sex. Like, it just flows, and

I don't know if it would ever be months again. Maybe it would, though. You

also just learn that, like, your body ebbs and flows, our needs ebb and flow,

life ebbs and flows, and it doesn't mean your relationship's doomed. Like you were saying,

if you're not doing it every week or every other week, you know, people go

through hardship. People go through times where they have

different needs. And sometimes specifically too for me when I was really tending to

that inner child when I had never tended to her before, she didn't, like, wanna

be sexually active. She just wanted to feel safe in her relationship and have a

man hold her and cuddle with her and know that she didn't have to be

touched. And, eventually, we wanna let all these parts of us flow together, like the

inner child, the inner teenager, the adult self, the wise self. They learn to

all ebb and flow at the same time. But I find when we're healing, sometimes

we have to give one part of us time and attention and allow

them to teach us something, and then we can take that into the next steps

of our relationship. But since I was exposed to sex, I feel like at a

young age I mean, I'm sure 14, fifteen's normal, but it was also very

violent. I feel like I had to go on this journey of learning sex from

every age. Like, learning what it was and not having to do it,

but I had to go through this, like, healing each stage of it.

Absolutely. When we're talking about healing, there is a element of breaking

it down into stages and taking it slow and not

forcing ourselves to do anything. And what I can say for

me, I think before I met Kai, I was kind of

just forcing myself to go to this place of, like, even what I saw in

porn, like, acting that out, which, ugh, I hate

saying that out loud, but it's just true. When we say media

teaches us to have sex, part of that is born. And so I would act

out what I saw there and be like, oh, maybe this will please him.

Maybe this will make me more lovable. And so

then when it comes to the healing, we meet that person where we settle

down. Then what I had to relearn, and this took some

time. I'm still learning this. It's been six years now that we've been together.

So what I had to unlearn was, like, I don't have to perform anymore.

Mhmm. I'm not doing this to make myself more lovable. Like, I'm not

going fishing anymore with this way of having sex. And

so I literally had to relearn how to have sex,

which was so bizarre. There was a point where I actually thought

maybe this isn't the right person for me, which I hate saying that out loud

too, but I'm just being open because it literally was tripping me

up that I wasn't having sex anymore to catch somebody.

Like, I was able to have sex in a way that was

just because I wanted to. And so, yeah, it was a lot of

unwinding of all of this I mean, it's literally stuff that

we store in our body. It's not just in your mind. It's the way your

body knows how to have sex. Like, I had to unlearn that in

order to be with my partner. I love that you mentioned that

because that really resonated. Specifically, you were

relearning that you got to have sex because you wanted to have sex, and that

was it. Because that was a big part of my unlearning journey

was I even felt guilt for wanting to have sex

because it had been such a violent act in my life. And I think this

is also cultural and societal, and I grew up a little bit Catholic. I say

a little bit Catholic because we went to mass, like, Christmas. And then my mom

actually ripped us out of the Catholic church during the whole priest for

pedophiles thing. So a little bit Catholic. But some of those beliefs were

instilled, and I'd had to unlearn that it's not dirty to wanna

have sex. There's nothing wrong with me. It's not shameful. Evan and I

never got married, so that's another thing the church wouldn't love about

me that I have on marital sex. Very committed, but it's not

within a marriage. And so I had to learn

that it was okay, that my body's needs were okay,

that it was safe for my body to feel that way. There was nothing wrong

with it. I used to label my sexual desires as wrong and also the

way I had sex as wrong. I used to have this word right and wrong

mixed in there, and I had to learn that sex isn't right

or wrong. It's a body's need. It's natural. It's normal.

Yeah. Normal even feels like the wrong word. I'm like, it's normal to wanna

have sex. I don't know, but it's just it's part of our nature as humans.

Yes. Absolutely. And it's the place where we get to

express the unexpressed parts of ourself and play

with maybe certain roles or desires

that we don't get to speak to in our daily lives or

practice speaking to those roles, like, you know,

taking power or reclaiming our power is something that I'm kind

of working with right now. You know, both in and out of the

bedroom being sexually expressed helps us

to express in our daily lives too. So that's the cool

thing too about when you meet somebody and you're in it long term.

So you get that safety element that comes in. Right? And that in

itself for me has been a long journey because I don't wanna make

it sound like, you know, Kai and I have just zoomed through this whole

thing where we're just like, well, now we're just freaking liberated.

We're, like, going crazy in the bedroom. We are absolutely

still in this, and I it's just kind of one of those things that you're

always working on, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I % agree.

Yeah. So I don't wanna make it sound like, you know, eventually, you get to

this stage, and then sex looks like this. Like, I think it's

always a rapping and unwinding. Also, I just wanna throw in

because I wanted to name that episode also, like, the ups and downs of sex

in a long term relationship. So it's like you're saying, I think there are just

always gonna be ups and downs just like in the relationship in

general. There are different ups and downs. And you've said that sex can kinda

reflect what's going on in your life. And so I just think your sex life

is always gonna have ups and downs because the relationship always has ups and downs.

That's part of being in a long term relationship. That's true. And

being present with that, like, oh, I'm just not really in the

mood recently. And maybe we have to readjust

and do our own thing for a month or so, and then we'll

come back to this. And when I stopped using sex as a

bargaining tool, then there was safety, and now it

becomes, well, okay. I don't have to have sex anymore because

I'm not doing it for my existence, right, or to feel loved.

Okay. Now why am I having sex then? And there was, like, a period

where I was just like I honestly feel like my sexual energy was

just really low. And thank God Kai is probably you know,

sounds a lot like Evan where he was just like, whatever you need. You know?

Like, whatever you need, don't ever feel like you have to

Mhmm. Do anything. So that helped so

much to just give me the space to breathe for a little bit. After

years, you know, from the age of, I guess, 17 to

24, just performatory sex And

fishing is the image that I'm getting. Like, I'm fishing with by having

sex. It's interesting you mentioned that too because I've talked

to a trauma professional who said that when

women who have been sexually violated, It's just interesting

because your experience isn't that. So it's might just be a woman experience, but this

woman told me that when women who have been sexually violated find themselves in a

safe relationship, so often their sex drive leaves because there's so

much healing to be done. And rape survivors handle being

raped very differently. Everybody does. But some people will be really sexually active

afterwards. Some people aren't sexually active at all. But a lot of times, the people

who become really sexually active afterwards when they enter that relationship become

yeah, they don't wanna have sex for a while because this trauma starts to

come up because it lives in the body, and sex is such a body experience.

So it's just interesting to hear your example because I'm like, maybe this is just

a universal female experience. It doesn't have to be trauma

belated that there's almost like a trauma within women to do

performative sex and for sex not to be about them. That when you find yourself

in a safe relationship, it's the first time you get to kind of step

back and be like, why am I doing this?

Yeah. I'll speak to that. There was a point where I was kind

of icked out by Kai

kissing me in a certain way. And these are the times where I would question,

like, are we good together? Is this right? And

I ended up working with somebody on unwinding that, and it actually went back

to a time that a guy kissed me in high school in a way that

I did not like. And all we did was kiss. Like, nothing

else happened, but even that, I felt trapped. Like, I felt like

I couldn't say what I wanted. I think that's a universal woman thing Yes.

Kind of we don't feel like we can speak up and say stop. I

don't want this. I think that there's also something in women because I've talked

to some rape survivors about this as well that it's almost scarier

to say no because if they don't stop, what that means.

So so many times, it's easier to just let it happen. I've just

heard that experience many times before. Yeah. That it just can be

easier not to speak up. And sometimes you can't speak up or sometimes you don't

feel safe or especially when you're experimenting in high school or when you're a teenager.

I mean, as young girls struggle to have our voice in general,

it's a scary time, especially if you're going at

it, I feel like, for the reason of, like, oh, I wanna be liked. I

wanna be loved. The idea of setting a boundary is scary.

And these are the things that you get the opportunity to work through them

with your partner because they are safe. And I ended up I did tell

Kai, like, oh, can you not kiss me in this particular way? Because it

reminds me of this thing, and it's not you. It was such a relief to

to go in and work on that and see, oh, it went back to this.

It has nothing to do with Kai. None of the sexual stuff ever had anything

to do with Kai. I love this guy. I know that we have

this chemistry and we're meant to be together. There's no other way

in my eyes, but these things would come up from my

past that would almost make me question it. And so if you're

listening, if you know that you love your partner and then there's something that

they do sexually or in in some kind of

intimacy related thing or action that they do

that kind of irks you, I would explore that if

you're ready and kind of see, like, what pictures come up for you. Do

any memories come up for you related to that thing? Because most

likely, it has nothing to do with your partner. Yeah. It's funny you bring that

up because so I suffered from repressed memories with my sexual trauma,

and it all came up for me when I became really curious about why I

would fully dissociate during sex. Like, I would, like, blackout, and I was like,

that's not normal. And Evan was like, I don't wanna have sex with you,

basically, because I was just not there. I was unpresent.

And I started to ask myself over and over again, why am

I like this? Why is this happening? And I actually went to a Joe

Dispenza retreat, and I set that as my intention. I

want to have, like, passionate sex. And then two weeks later, my

memories came back, and I've been on a wild journey of healing from sexual trauma

ever since. But, again, I only

am where I'm at my sexuality because I have looked

at all those really, really hard things. And if there's anybody

else out there who, you know, has experienced sexual trauma, it is

daunting. It is hard. But you deserve to have a beautiful sex

life with your partner. That was what I went back to over and over again

as I was healing was I'm not gonna allow these people to take this from

me. I'm 30 years old. I'm not gonna spend the rest of my life. And

I was in my twenties when the memories came back, but it was like, I'm

not gonna allow this instant to take this from me. But it breaks my heart

that it does take that from people. Yeah. The

fact that we get to work through those

things in our relationship is really beautiful, but that doesn't mean it's not hard

and that there's not work that maybe we do on our own in order to

show up and not put the burden on our partner fully

even though it's not a burden. I think there's a responsibility that we

work through our stuff Mhmm. So that it doesn't feel so

heavy on our partner even though they can help us work

through it and and bring love and safety to that

situation. And that's where it can be fun. Once we get to do the

work, once we get through a lot of that healing on our own, then we

can play with that idea of the roles. So for me, feeling

like I gave away my body and my sexuality to these men before

because I wanted them to stay and love me. Now I'm playing with, okay.

Now it's my turn to have the power, and I'll do that in a playful

way. I'm not gonna violate my partner. You know? I love him, and we'll talk

we'll communicate. We're gonna do this. Right? Yeah. We're gonna try this. And so

then I get to play the role of the person in power, you know,

kind of like a dominating kind of situation. And if your partner

is willing, like, that could be so healing. You know? In in

somatic work and healing work in general.

There can be something really satisfying about

going back to a thing that hurt you and then resolving

it, like, either inside of yourself or through sex. So, like,

doing the opposite of what you did back then. So if

you felt like you were giving yourself away and you had no power, then

you're taking back your power. Like, how does that look to play that role

out? Yeah. I'm thinking about in my relationship when I was healing too, there

was times that I asked to be, like, the only one who was pleasured,

and that was really vulnerable for me and took communication. But Evan was always open,

but that was really healing for me that there didn't have to be this reciprocal

thing because we communicated about it. But he was willing to just

let me have a moment. That was healing for me too

because, yeah, like you were saying, that it was just in my mind being like,

okay. This gets to be about me. Woah. Like, that was

mind blowing for me. And it's cool that you are able to

tap into this is what I need, and this is what

would be healing for me. And we kind of have what I would call,

like, a sandbox, and I'm not making up that term that's out there.

This idea that we get to play and experiment with this person

because they are safe. Right? Once we get through

the phase of doing the healing work, well, now we get to play, and now

sex becomes fun. And we're talking, and we're creating

something together. I actually wanna talk about the communication part

too because I wanted to ask you. Did you think when you

first were in a relationship that you had to communicate about sex? Because I

honestly thought, like, we'd never have to talk about it. Like,

I thought we would just, like, always know when each other would

wanna do it Yeah. And what to do. Like, I didn't

think there ever had to be speaking around it. I was just curious if you

always knew you should talk about it. Because it's in I think it's the movies

that make you think you never have to talk about it. Absolutely. I'm only laughing

because I can relate because it's like, yeah. The movies make it seem like you

both are turned on at the same time, and you just drop everything. And you're

suddenly both of you are aroused at the exact same time, and

it's so hot and whatever. And it's like And you finish at the same time?

Yes. Actually, I read again in Come As You Are, great book for having

sex in a long term relationship, actually, because she talks about these couples they did

a study on that have been together for more than twenty years,

and they have reported still having a great sex life. And when

they asked them what were the factors that went into their great

sex life, none of them were desire. Even though I

do desire my partner, right, that's not one of the factors that contributes

to our great sex life. Instead, the factors

were communication, having good

context. So meaning, you know, we wait for a good time. We don't

have sex when we might feel stressed or if the kids are in the

next room or even down to little details, like the window is

open, like, you know, and people might be able to hear us. Like, their context

is we make time for that. Right? And then probably connection was on

there. I don't remember the other factors, but the main point is that

desire was not one. I believe it's seven factors that

are listed for the these couples. That's interesting. In my

twenties, my mind would be blown. And then she even gets into the fact that

the way our desire works between not only men and women, but then

within men and women in their own categories,

like, they can vary too. So some people are

aroused just by touch, and other people take

time. Like, it's a slow and steady buildup. Mhmm. A lot

of men are the type where you go to them, you can just grab them,

and they're ready to go. And, usually, women are more the type that we

need a slow buildup of connection and communication.

Right? But, again, it's not all men. It's not all women. So our

desire works differently. Therefore, of course, it's not just, like, in the

movies where it's like a big Yeah. That's how it works in

my relationship. I definitely need more of the emotional buildup and the

connection. And that's another thing since we're talking about sex after the honeymoon phase.

I think maybe during the honeymoon phase, I didn't need as much as

the emotional buildup because I felt so emotionally connected

all the time because you just meet this person. And then I were in college.

So, I mean, talk about having so much time on your hands to spend with

each other. You know, we would just hang out all the time. You know, we

were in class for, like, two hours a day. So I've found

as our relationship has grown over the past decade,

that emotional buildup is really important for me. But I judged myself

when I didn't know that's what I needed and what was missing, like, when I

was, like, 22. And it was like, why do I not feel connected to this

man? Do I still wanna be with him? And it was like, yeah. You just

need more of that emotional connection. Like, when he started working, it was

just a change in our relationship that I didn't

know was going to change our relationship so much, if that makes sense.

Definitely. During the honeymoon phase, especially if we're

talking like you guys got together in college, Kai and I got together when I

was 24. You know, our hormones are a little bit different than you're a little

more frisky as far as that goes. And I'm not saying,

oh, in your twenties, it's up here, and then your hormones just take a

nosedive. But I I think when you're younger, you're just you just

don't need, like, the same I know. I also think you're not

as stressed is kind of what I've come up with. I think the

older you get, the more responsibilities you take on, which can feel

stressful. Mhmm. And the more you have on your mind

where I just remember being in my young twenties, and my mind definitely wasn't

clear. It definitely was chaotic, but it wasn't so

stressed all the time. Yes. Yeah. That's probably

that's gotta be part of it. Because I know that there are some women who

we actually like, our sexual energy gets kind of more

explosive as we get older. Yeah. I heard that in your forties, for women, it

can be the most they begin to feel their sexual energy coming

more. Interesting. I wonder if forward to that decade.

Yeah. Yeah. Same. I feel like I'm slowly kinda building there. I do

feel like there's a confidence part because women, we can be so they

question everything about our bodies. It It doesn't look good. It oh my

god. It's not perfect. It's not this. And then by the time we get to

40 or 50, we're just like, it's my body. I wouldn't change a thing

or whatever. Hopefully, we feel that way. Yeah. I pray that's the case. I'm still

working through some of that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Same here. Definitely.

So, yeah, we were talking about communication, though, and I I kinda wanna stay in

that same thread and just talk about how

the coolest part about having safety in our sex lives

with this long term partner is that we can make requests like you did with

Evan. You know? Yeah. Can I be the only one to receive pleasure today

or whatever the case is? And so I've had

fun with that because I've never really been one to make requests

for anything at all. And with the communication

piece too, that makes me think of on the same line that after the

honeymoon phase is also when I had to learn that I

could initiate as well. In the honeymoon phase, Evan

initiated everything, and I learned

that I had to initiate. And with that, just initiate sex in

general, but like you're saying, once you start to initiate as a woman,

you also can speak up your needs and different things you

wanna experiment with or try. But for me, the first step of that was like,

oh, you want me to initiate sexually? Never done that before.

Which is kinda exciting. We get to decide how it starts, and we get to

decide how we want it to look. And we can live out

these, I guess, fantasies of I don't know.

For me, it's a lot about power, like me taking back power. And for me,

what I realized too is by initiating, it doesn't have to be me just lying

around waiting for whenever he desires it that

we would I was gonna say make love. Like, you know what I mean? I

don't know. Yeah. But that it's like, oh, only when he desires it are we

able to do that. So I was really nervous about initiating, but it was like,

oh, it's a way to take my power back. I don't have to just sit

here and wait for you. I get to express my needs, my desires,

what I want as well. And he doesn't have to always say yes

either, but it was actually a way to take my power back in it, and

I didn't even realize that at first. I actually like that you say make love

because I've been, like, playing with this idea that I mean, it is

making love. You could even say, like, are we always making love

then? Because I love you, and we're creating this

relationship together. Because this is the beauty of, like, a long term

partnership. You can so many different things. You can communicate, and there's no

goal. Well, if you want that to be the thing that you guys work

on or that you explore, there there could be no goal. Like, nobody has to

orgasm. You could just Yeah. You could just play with it. And

truth be told, there's times where neither Evan and I orgasm, especially

when I was healing from trauma. There were times I'd give it a shot. I'd

be, like, in my head, but I'd be like, okay. And I wasn't there. I

wasn't ready to do it, and we would just stop. And that was a really

beautiful thing for me too to know that I could try, and I didn't

have to go all the way or finish or whatever. It

creates safety that I can stop anytime I want to stop, and

nobody's going to pressure me to finish or, you know, he would

stop too. That was really healing for me too that he didn't just then

make it about himself or something. You know? So that's, I think, a gift of

long term relationships because I think specifically as women, as we were talking about when

we're exploring our sexuality as young women, I don't know if we

even know we have that option. Yeah. God. This

is a really great point that I had to work through

myself. Like, if either of us didn't orgasm, it was

okay. I didn't have to make sure that he did. Right? It doesn't

mean that he's gonna leave you. And I'm really it sounds drastic,

but I really had to feel into that because I would be

so disappointed sometimes and feel, like,

so almost lost. Like, we did it wrong. We did

it wrong. Yeah. It's like, no. He's and he's not gonna leave

either just because it's not all about somebody

orgasming. It's when you're with somebody long term

or even if you're just having fun with somebody, I suppose. Although

yeah. I just always felt like pressure. Like, the man has to orgasm, and

that's how you know that he finds you worthy. It's

like, ugh. Yeah. I mean, it makes me go back to a belief I had

to unlearn from high school where there was this

man, boy, because he was a high schooler, who would always say, like, oh my

gosh. You're, like, giving me blue balls. So I thought men, like,

literally would end up in so much pain if they didn't finish.

And I was, like, torturing this poor man who I did not wanna do

anything other than kiss. And he was always

telling me that I was, like, putting him in pain, and I would have all

this guilt. Because when I was a little high schooler, I was I just wanted

to kiss boys. I didn't wanna do anything else. Anyways but he would make

me feel so bad. So then when I met Evan, he was the one who

taught me, like, that's not true. Yeah. Like, it's sexual

discomfort, like, I can have. You know, like, when you're sexually frustrated, we all know

that feeling. Yeah. But, yeah, I really, really believed,

like, I was hurting him. I'm only laughing because it's also it's fucked

up because that really is a thing that is taught to women, like, blue balls.

Like, you're giving up blue balls. How dare you, you fucking, you know, lunch.

Like You prude. Like, you know, people call me a slut and a whore because

I was raped, or they'd call me a prude because all I wanna do is

kiss. It was crazy. I couldn't win in high school. You're right. Exactly. You can't

you can't win. You're either a slut or you're yeah. Exactly. You're a prude. Right.

You can never be something in between. And that's unfortunate that we

really were taught that. A lot of us, not all, but certainly a lot of

women are taught, like, yeah, blue balls or it's all about the

guy, and then we're just taught about sex in the lens of male

sexuality, which can be so different than female

sexuality. And our expectations of sex are

so high for because of media or maybe not high, but they're

so blown out of proportion because of media. And then also they're

so, like, underwhelming because of the actual sex

that you have in high school, which really is kind of underwhelming. Yeah.

At least in my experience, totally underwhelming and

not satisfying in the least bit, but I guess you have to have that

exploratory phase. I think that

all women have to have the exploratory phase, and I think some people have it

I don't know. I think everybody has to explore sex a bit because

the communication and language around it isn't necessarily

helpful. Yeah. I think that's that's just what it comes

down to. You know? We're fed a lot of assumptions and

lies, straight up lies Yes. About sex. Like, straight

up fucking lies that we end up living into.

You know? I think of, again, porn, even

just stories from other teens and people in their

twenties and adults, even adults. Right? Yeah. And then fear too. Right?

Like, you're gonna get pregnant. You're gonna get, like, an STD. And not that we

shouldn't be aware of those things, but there's just so

much chatter in our heads about sex

that when we finally find this safe

person, there is a lot of unlearning to do. There's so much

I know I learned a lot about sex in high school and not good things,

like things I had to unlearn. I really believe I grew up in, like, a

breeding ground of rapists. I look back. It's just it scares me sometimes, the

things that would happen at parties and that I witnessed and that were

normalized. So I normalized very about the

man behavior. And it just scares me that that can

still happen today because it's just not the way sex is supposed to be. Sex

is supposed to be making love. It's supposed to be beautiful. You know? And so

I think when we're in these long term relationships, one of the gifts is that

we can relearn. I think it's hard to relearn

our beliefs around sex when we don't have that safety, that inherent safety.

I think safety is a foundation to healing. So we have to create that inner

safety and in a relationship that safety with somebody in

order to begin healing and relearning and unlearning.

Right? Unpacking the box of, like, what sex is in

your head. That's what it was for me. It was like going through this box

in my attic that was like, oh my gosh. This is a scary box. I

don't like this box. But then every time I took something out, I gotta put

something new and pretty in. That's how I'm gonna view it. You know? But Yeah.

That's a really great analogy, actually. It really is like that, and we do

it slowly. We don't just, like, dump the box out and, like, let's

go. Yeah. You know? One by one and take

your time. And by the way, this is all we've spoken about

women's perspectives, but a lot of this can apply

to men too because they are fed their own

narratives of I mean, rape culture is one thing, which is

totally totally a thing. And I'm not a man, so I can't

really speak to a lot of it, but, like, watch porn. And women are

all like this, and they like this, and they like to be thrown around. I

think there's in our society right now, there's this big narrative of women enjoy

be choked and to be slapped. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There are women who maybe they genuinely like that, but I do think there

is a very harmful narrative of, like, violence in sex. I

think so too, and I think that's where the communication is important and it comes

in because you and your partner are gonna

find what works for you. And when you watch

porn or you talk to even friends, like, I think about in my twenties, I

think everybody talked up their sex life. I swear to god. Everybody was lying.

Maybe one of these people had the best sex life ever, but I felt like

I was in sex in the city. Especially when I lived in LA, everybody had

the best sex with the richest man. And I was like, I'm over here terrified

of sex. Anyway but I think men are also taught the

performative sex and these different things. Because with

those ladies, like, telling these stories that the man went for an hour and

it was a beautiful and, you know, she finished, like, seven times. And I'm like,

okay. But, I mean, men are hearing this too. Like, that they have to be

on and perform. And even with the initiating, I think there might be a

thing with men where that feels like a lot of pressure to always have to

be the one to initiate, but society tells you you're supposed to and things like

that that I think all the narratives around sex are unhealthy for

both genders. Absolutely. I like that we're talking about this with men

too because I've heard some men talk about, like, I don't want

sex all the time. Like Mhmm. Why do we think that that

men want sex all the time? Yeah. It's making me think of I remember the

first time I initiated with Evan, and he said he wasn't in the mood.

Oh my gosh. The amount of shame I felt. I felt awful. I felt

rejected. I felt horrible. And it was

really good, though, because, I mean, I've been kept being like, I'm not rejecting you.

I'm just not in the mood. And it was so humbling because I was

like, if I'm allowed to say no, he's allowed to say

no. I just remember feeling so much shame and feeling rejected.

And I think that's another thing we learn in long term relationships is that you

don't always have to be in the mood, and the man doesn't and the woman

doesn't. Nobody does no matter who you are, and

that's okay. It doesn't mean your relationship's over because I definitely went there in my

head too. I was like, he'd not into me anymore. Yeah. Like, it's done. Like,

oh my gosh. Like, we just run its forests. I'm old. I'm ragged.

I'm disgusting. I'm an ogre. Yeah. Like, the most

extreme thing. And I'm glad that we're talking about this. Because it

gets fed to men that they must be aroused all the time and ready

to go, then in turn, it gets fed to women that, well, if a man

wants to have sex all the time and he's saying to you in particular,

you, ugly, unworthy woman, that he's

not in the mood, well, then there must be something wrong with me because men

are supposed to always be in the mood. And it's this vicious circle. I think

sex is such a big deal because we get these narratives that are

so extreme. You know? Fear, obsession, lust,

porn. It's like, what about just a regular old

person that I've been with for ten years? You know? And I don't mean to

say regular because I can certainly it's beautiful. It's fun.

It's exploratory, but it's also not what we see

in the movies or maybe hear stories of. Like, it's so much more nuanced

than that. And I think when we bring in that fun and that play

element, it gets to be its own thing each

time. And it gets to be a surprise, which is

fun and playful. And, of course, when we're in long term relationships, we know what

each other likes. So it can get, like, a little sometimes it can just

feel regular, but that's okay too. I actually find that's

okay. I I actually still find those times fun. Like, that's the thing is that's

still fun. Mhmm. Just sometimes you wanna mix it up. Something that I learned

is all pleasure is good pleasure. So Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So that took

a lot of shame away for me for, like, times when we do

have, like, regular sex, and it's like, well, it still feels good. I used to

judge it. Like, oh my gosh. One of the things I wanna touch on was

just that sex isn't mind blowing every time. And what I mean by that is

it's just in the movies, I felt like it was like this your eyes roll

back in your head. Like, oh my gosh. Like, you collapse at the end, and

you're like, never had an orgasm like that before. And it's

not like that every time. And sometimes I'm like, woah. My eyes did roll back,

and other times I'm like, that was just really good. You know, there's nothing wrong

with either of them. It's just, like, it's okay. You know what I mean? It's

just, like, every time I sit down to record, some episodes, I'm like, fucking nailed

it. Some episodes, I'm like, hope that lands for someone.

Yeah. You know, it's anything in life, and I'm actually thinking that's how I feel

about all creativity, and sex is a form of creativity. Oh, absolutely.

Energy. So Oh, it's like the original form of creative

energy. We use it to create life, literally, a

baby. Not not that you have to have sex to create a baby, but you

know what I'm saying. Yeah. But that's like it really is. Because, yeah, when I

sit down to write, it's the exact same way. Some days, I just stare at

a blank screen. Still glad I did it. And other days, I'm like,

that's really good. And I get, like, a little arrogant even. You know? But it's

just it's the same way, I think, with sex. Like, it's just different each time,

and that's sort of the fun of it. You know? That's why I love anything

creative is it surprises you. It gets to be its own thing. You get to

explore. And when it's not going great, that's

when you can self reflect. You know? I really think when

things aren't going well or I have no sex drive, it has nothing to do

with Evan and everything to do with me. That's what I found time and time

again is that when I'm lacking a sex drive, it's like, okay, Amanda. What's

really going on? And it's often I'm stressed or I have a trauma layer up

that I've been avoiding. You know, for me, especially with healing sexual trauma, if I

was trying to not look at a layer, it would impact every area of my

life, including sex. Like, all of a sudden, it would be like, I don't wanna

do this, and it'd be like, because I'm avoiding that thing. And so I think

that's important to note too that a lot of times if you're just feeling

lacking in that sexual chemistry, it can be a self thing. Like, self

reflection can help you to move through that block. Yeah.

Absolutely. I wanna share, like, what comes up for me is that it's, like,

a full spectrum of experience, and we wouldn't

want it to be this one explosive thing every time

because then that becomes mundane. Right? So when we have the full

spectrum, it's like all of the different experiences, right,

including the disappointing ones, and that happens. Yeah.

So do you have anything else you want to share

before we wrap up this episode? Well, I hope that

by listening to this, anybody who is feeling

any kind of maybe shame or just not understanding

or even wondering, like, is this person right for me? I hope that this has

brought a little bit of clarity and maybe some areas that

you can explore with your partner because that's what this is all about, you know,

sex after the honeymoon phase. You have that safe place

to explore and discover, like, what you truly

desire in sex, and, therefore, you know, you get to take those things

out of the bedroom into your daily life, which is the really cool

part. And the last thing I just wanna add is that I think everybody

deserves a beautiful sex life. I think I didn't know that

for a really long time, and I often questioned if I'd ever have that

or if I just end up an old dried up spinster. I used to just

be like, Evan can just leave me because I'm broken over here.

And especially if you're like me and you have a lot of sexual trauma, it

can take time. All these things take time. It's like how you're saying, I don't

want you to think this happened for me overnight. You know, Evan and I it

was years of us figuring a lot of this stuff out. I wish there had

been more open conversations, especially from sexual violence survivors

about just it takes time. It's not gonna always be

great overnight, but I think everybody just deserves a beautiful sex life. So if you

feel frustrated, there are steps you can take. It just can take time.

Yeah. Agreed. Cool. Well, thank you so much for

joining us for this episode. If you wanna connect with us, you

can check us out on Instagram at love under the scope, or you can email

us at loveunderthescope@gmail.com. If you have follow-up

questions on this episode or any episode or you have topics you wanna hear,

please let us know. We would love to hear from you. And, Kelby,

is this something you can help people with? Yes. Yeah. I work

with individuals and couples to get them more

connected, not only to each other, but to themselves.

And that absolutely includes in their sex lives,

but also just in their daily lives. So if you're looking for

guidance around that, I am a certified relationship

coach. You can reach out to me on Instagram. I recently opened a

new account. It is @coachedbyKelby. That's

my handle. And so you can DM me there

or follow me. I'd be happy to have you on my page.

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode

of Love Under the Scope. We'll see you next time.

Love Under the Scope is a New View Advice production.

You can learn more about our podcast at

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Theme music is by Tyler Knutt. Our

podcast is produced by Amanda Durocher.

Love under the scope.