Are you a new parent AND graduate?

Trying to pass your boards in your last trimester and start a practice with a newborn?

In this episode I talk with Megan Neal as she navigates these GIANT life transitions and how she is SO ready to practice medicine!

As I see it, there is rarely a perfect time for anything. When is the perfect time to go to medical school? What about starting a family? When should you start working on your Doctoral degree? Or maybe it’s time to start taking better care of yourself.

What I have learned is that life just keeps getting fuller and fuller as you age. If there is a space in my closet I will fill it. If there is free time in my schedule, I will find ways of putting “more doing” in there.

What ever happened to slowly and gently building something of value? Of mindfully constructing the life we were born worthy of? Of gently inviting the blissful whispers of our dreams to slowly unfurl in our waking life.

Our fears of not having enough, not being enough and not doing enough cause us to race into jobs, relationships and life in ways that only cause congestion in our otherwise smooth and clear life path.

Our medicine is what I like to call slow medicine. It works best when we slow our lives down and focus only on the patient in front of us. It works best when the patient relaxes their grip on the speeding train of life for one hour of slow breathing, genuine care gently shifting the scales of life force back in their favor.

I want to invite you to consider practicing slow medicine. For yourself and your patients.

Today’s Guest

MEGAN NEAL LAC.

Megan Neal dedicated her life to the study of Acupuncture and East Asian Medicine after transformational experiences with it in her late twenties. At the same time in her life, she encountered yoga, Ashtanga yoga and then Integral Yoga, and has been walking the path ever since. Today Megan is an Arizona state licensed Acupuncturist, board certified by the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM, expected November 2022. She is also Arizona state certified by the Council of Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, CCAOM, in Clean Needle Technique. Upon graduating from her three year masters program, her and her husband had a beautiful baby boy. She was fortunate to use what she had learned to care for herself in the journey to motherhood. She was thus inspired to specialize in women’s health- fertility, pregnancy, perinatal and postpartum care. She has no spare time but if she did, she imagines she would again enjoy writing morning pages, finding hidden pools on Mt. Lemmon, playing the harmonium, five rhythms dance, and continuing to nerd out with her collection of Chinese Medicine books. 

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You’ll learn:

• How Megan managed to take boards in her last trimester and then with a newborn.
• We talk about introverted marketing often, but Megan is an extrovert and her attitude about networking at a health fair is inspiring.
• Find out how she chose a niche and why.
• We have differing opinions about strategically taking board exams. Listen in to figure out what is right for you.

Resources

• Trying to pass board exams? Here are the resources mentioned in the episode
• TCMTests (my personal recommendation)
• HB Kim
• TCMReview
• Acupuncture Review Classes - Linda Morse PhD., LAc.
• Jane Electronic Medical Records. Use this link to get your first month free!
• Explore What Jane Has To Offer!!!
• Follow AcuSprout on Instagram and Facebook

Mentioned in this episode:

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  📍 Hey Aki Sprouts.

Welcome back to the show In today's episode, I am talking to another new practitioner, Megan Neal, and Megan did reach out to me, And we ended up having some really great conversations and I just wanted to bring her on and see what it's like to be new again, and also see, where she's having some struggles and successes and just have a great conversation. Welcome to the show, Megan. How are you?

Thank you for having me.

I'm doing great.

So let's see here. I think we did chat, start chatting about eight months ago.

Yeah, I heard, I heard your podcast. I found it on Spotify and um, and I loved it cuz it was kind of unique and filling a much needed void. And so I wrote you a email and I can't even remember what I said. I think it was like I, I like episode ideas or something. Stuff I wanted to hear more of

Gosh, you gave me so many ideas. It was super helpful. It was really fun. So tell me where you're at. You recently graduated. Tell me where you are, where you're living, and then.

I'm in Tucson, Arizona. I graduated from asam, which is the, it's kind of an outdated title. Arizona School of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine. And we are that school's. A couple decades old and it was originally two schools and it had just merged into one when I went there.

It's a TCM focused school. It's got a really strong herbs program. and also one of the cheapest tuitions in the country. We're like an hour above the border. So, um, I'm all the way from Virginia, but I found, acupuncture at a community space back in Richmond where I'm from. And so I looked for, looked at all the tuitions in the country cause it's such a, you know, ridiculous price point to pursue this path.

And I, um, and I really chose it based on the tuition. And then I moved out here and fell in love with the school and it was real small and, uh, yeah. And it was, it was a condensed program. It was three years. So, um, instead of four, so I went through the three years and I did not do the herbs program. I just studied the acupuncture and chose to start a family instead.

So I still, so I still have the herbs to do. Um, but uh, yeah, and I, so I have, we have an eight month old son and, and I passed all of my boards pregnant or with a newborn . So I'm waiting on my license now. I'm like a month from the paperwork coming. I'm just waiting on the,

the

fingerprints.

Wow. Okay. Wow. For some reason I thought you'd been practicing already, so that's

just a lot of to knot. Yeah. I've been practicing this year, just body work. Oh, I left that out. We have this really robust to knot program at the school I went to. So it's like a, um, yeah, it's a thousand, a thousand hours of to not education. So for this last year, I've just been doing body work and that's been really educational in itself.

And also like wash on cupping.

So, but I have my spaces set to where I'm set up to where I'm going to work, um, when my license arrives. And right now I'm just doing the body

work and that's, that's where I am.

Oh. And it, I'm in the middle of the branding process too, you know, by branding, I mean like I am my own graphic design studio, you know, but , but I'm figuring out the name and all the, how to describe the

direction I wanna go.

Yeah.

Wow. That's all. Really amazing and good and a lot for not even having all your paperwork yet, by the way, like having all of that direction. The last time I talked to you, and this is kind of why I was like, ah, I need to bring you on now. Cause I haven't brought on a new practitioner. This new, as new as you are, usually there's some wheels under the bus a little bit, so to speak, with the practitioners that I've brought on, like they're in a year or two years.

So it's, it's really refreshing too because I am not brand spanking new anymore. And so I wanna know what I'm forgetting because if I forget then I'm not gonna be in touch with you guys, right? So I wanna, I wanna refresh that and remember, remember the challenges so that I can definitely be of better assistance.

So one of the things that, um, well first of all, I want to talk about. How amazing the women in this field are. And I am continually floored by my friends in school who had babies because I could not even, I stopped growing the hair on my head. I don't even know how you grow a baby while studying that hard and doing all of the things and having that much stress that is, and then, and then continuing in this transitional period of having to start a business and make all these decisions and not sleep.

Why don't you tell me a little bit about those challenges and then also too, where the sweet spots are

Oh wow. What a, yeah, what a great question. Um, yeah, well, I'll tell you how to do it. If you're a little short on Jing and you're totally your spleen, she is all over the place. So you get pregnant in February or March, and then you ride that young weather wave

and you're hold on through the first trimester

Right.

And that's honest to God how you have a baby at the end of acupuncture school post 35. I'm, I just turned 37, so I gave birth at 36, but, um, After three years of getting needles, I was actually super fertile. I've never even been pregnant, so I, I didn't even know if I could be, and then my body was like super fertile.

So

that maybe that's too much information for,

no, no,

but yeah, right after, right after acupuncture school, you really, you actually have to, um, it's, it's very easy to have a baby in my, in my personal experience. I know a lot of people, that's not true for everybody. But, um, yeah, so I, I knew I wanted to have children and, um, yeah, I'm just gonna tell you the total honest to God's truth.

I knew I wanted to have children. I was 35, I moved across the country. I was single, um, or I was 33 when I moved across the country. But, um, I've, Luke and I met when I was 34, 35, something like that. We've been together for like six months and then the pandemic hit. And then we moved in together. And then I finished my last year of school and then we got pregnant at the very end.

And he was very gracious because this whole thing is very expensive. Right. You know, to go to acupuncture school unless you're independently wealthy, that's a really different story, but I'm not. Um, so yeah, so then we had the baby and it felt really natural. Kind of like a capstone course on a three years of long body

study, you know,

Your baby is Your capstone. That's a good bath. There

. And that, that was cool cause I got to experience all, oh, and we had a miscarriage at eight weeks before. So, which I'm really open about because I discovered that almost all women have experienced this, who have tried to get pregnant and it's a really untalked about thing. So, so in the course of all of that, I got to experience acupuncture and herbs at like every stage.

You know, it was really cool, including having the baby. So if you're a first time mother, a little known fact, if you're a first time mother and you don't let Western medicine induce you , which is the encouraged path, then it's, it's typical that you'll go 10 days over your due date. It's more like a due window really, you know?

But, so I was 14 days past the due date and, so we were at 40, almost 42 weeks. And then we had a healthy baby boy, and I also discovered that I really didn't, know as much as I thought I did, like I thought I could definitely whip the baby out with, you know, a little moxa and you know, needling hao and my mispronouncing that.

And I tried every point that was in the Deborah Best book, you know, and it wasn't, he was not budge. And um, and then I got blocked ducks right when I was first nursing. And you were really helpful in telling me how to use cups, you know, from the acceler increase to the nipple and that I could Yeah. Work with stomach 11 and stuff like that.

So anyway, yeah, the whole thing was learning journey and I'm, I'm really grateful that I got to experience it because a lot of acupuncturists I've noticed don't have children, which is beautiful. Like this is such a, and I think kind of wise, cuz this is such a, a baby in itself, you know, like our path is so, long and deep.

So to be a parent at the same time, you're spreading yourself kind of thin. And in our state organization in Arizona, for example, it's called a ma. I was at a a get together before the pandemic and someone asked, raise your hand if you're a parent. And maybe like a third of the people in the room raised their hands.

It was really interesting, like the majority were not parents and these were all ages and all races. It was really cool, like the spread of people, but most were not parents. Anyway, I noticed that. So I'm grateful that I got to experience both things and I'm in that, um, I don't know if I'd call it a sweet spot, but I'm in that , I'm in the thick of it of really trying to find the, the balance and for me so far, childcare is everything.

Like, we have a grandma on the scene and she's really our saving grace. And it's, it would be very difficult for me to be going forward on my path as an acupuncturist without her support, but I have her. So, yeah. I just wanna shout out to Tata

Thank you. Tata. Yeah,

Women supporting women. Very good.

So this is actually formed the way that you're gonna practice, didn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, for, for sure. I always knew that I wanted to be a mother and that I was always interested in that path. And then the people that came into the clinic that were my patients were, you know, you see everything in the beginning. And, uh, I got really good at back pain, , um, Reproductive care.

I don't even know if I wanna call it reproductive care, but that magic portal of time when a woman is trying to get pregnant to when she crosses the threshold into being a mother into that postpartum period, especially the postpartum period, I could really talk about that. I feel like that's so forgotten in our culture.

But, um, uh, so much so the word's been equated with the depression, you know, but, um, but just that whole continuum is a really, it's really powerful it's like a leveling up and I feel like our medicine has so much to offer there, and I was so supported by it. And, , I want to give that back and it feels just kind of like the natural evolution of where I would go if I was to specialize.

And I definitely want to specialize. I feel like nicheing down is, I mean, for just financially intelligent, but then also. The possibility of doing general practice is so overwhelming to me that I, it was never even, I never wanted to go that direction. So yeah. Becoming a mother myself really cemented it for me that I wanted to work with mothers birth and babies and all of it.

Down the road I want to do kids, but I can't focus on that right now Cause there's so much to cover just in the, uh, in the time from a woman gets when a woman gets pregnant to the birth. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I don't know if you listened to the episode I had with Dr. Joanne Bates,

Oh, not, I don't believe so.

so.

I actually talked, oh gosh, I, I don't know the the episode number, but this episode was with, uh, Dr. Joe Am Bates, and it was about creating community around your niche. And so when I was in Bellingham,

I eventually, well, I struggle, struggle, struggle, bust for years. And then finally I ended up in this group of women who were, um, putting together a, they put together what's called the birth collective.

Oh, I did listen to that one.

Yeah, the birth, the

birth collective was like, um, so Joanne is a chiropractor, but she specializes in pregnancy and, um, postpartum as well.

And that's all she want, only wants to work with women. And she knew that when she first started practicing. And so what she did was she created the birth collective and then invited other, people who also were in this period, or in this niche, but provided other care. So like doulas and, exercise specialists and public floor specialists and physical therapists and, acupuncturists, so she created this thing called the Birth Collective. And then what they did where they had a couple meetings, but then they had a, like a show like, um, uh, or like a, oh gosh, like a health fair, like a

birth and wellness health fair where they all set up booths and, um, it was really successful just for like, she sold out all of the booths.

People, people were calling, trying to like be a part of it. And so now she's taking this group and she's refining it a little bit more. And so she's going to make it so that. First it was sort of like a free for all, you know, and now she's going to like, hunker down and, and make it like a very, put some more, , rules to being a part of the group.

But anyway, that was a really great way for her to create cross referrals. , so I just thought I'd share that with you because it seems like that might be something that would be beneficial to you. But not only you, but just to mention it again on the podcast, that creating a community around what it is that you're niche on is in a way like that is, uh, amazing, prolific, like that kind of thing will last years those referrals.

Gosh, I, I, it's so timely that we're talking about this because in Tucson tomorrow or two days, I'm sorry, in two days is the natural birth and baby fair. I'm going for the first time as a, you know, brand new to be licensed brand, brand new tobe licensed practitioner. And I'm just kind of getting my feet wet and meeting people.

But yeah, the birth collective in Tucson, there's something that already exists called Gateway Tucson, and it's exactly that, but it's more, um, I don't wanna say Western Med focused, but it's more, uh, mainstream. They have, they do have like a diaper service and stuff like that, but it's like a pediatrician or like a couple pediatricians and um, childcare and stuff like that.

And they aren't, they have one, practitioner from every, profession and they already have an acupuncturist who's really conflict a really accomplished Shelly Dainty. She was my teacher. She's great. And so I thought to myself when I heard your episode back in the day, that I couldn't create something like that cuz it already existed here.

But there isn't one that has things like chiros and, and acus

and PTs in

it. So,

And doulas and

and doulas.

lactation consultants and, hypnobirthing and you can just keep going. You can go back and listen to this episode afterwards if you want .

Why do you see me taking notes.

Cause you're taking notes. She's taking notes. I can see her guys. Uh, yeah, you, you, you can listen to this episode again later,

Okay. So, um, since we're talking about, uh, a new practitioner taking on a business endeavor and you're headed to this, health fair situation, what's your strategy?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. In my dreams, I'm incredibly organized. I am wearing a new expensive outfit, but that it's business cash, you know? And I have my cars printed and my brand with my whole brand story behind it, and a calendarly. Organize social media, you know, posts ready to go, and I go and I give my card, but in reality, I have an eight month old and I'm just, I'm getting like maybe one hour to myself a day kind of thing that's broken up between, you know, times.

So, so in reality I'm gonna go and shake hands and I'm gonna be myself and I'm gonna introduce myself and I'm gonna get to know people and I'm gonna make friends. And I'm pretty extroverted. I'm really grateful for that because I found at my school that a lot of the people who are acupuncturists are extremely talented, introspective, like deep, reflective folks, you know?

And I don't mean to make blanket statements, but anyway, but I really like people. I miss people from the pandemic and, um, I like talking with people, so I'm just gonna go and talk with people and. One of the reasons I was so drawn to this podcast in your work in AcuSprout is because you are so human and mortal and brave and vulnerable and all that jazz.

You would talk about, I remember driving to my car and listening to your podcast and you'd talk about how acupuncture school breaks you open and you can graduate with a perfect plan, you know? But in reality, a lot of us are just recovering, from the whirlwind that was that curriculum.

So, in the best way, you're not the same person that you, that you went in as. So what is my strategy for the birth fair? My strategy is to, is to be myself and to have no doubt and to know that it's all good and that I'm going in the right direction. And that's it. And then next year I'll definitely have cards.

At that point I'll have, I'll be a lot more established, but my, I guess, To short answer your question, it's to not

rush. Yeah.

Well that's unique. That's amazing.

Forced,

forced life lesson, you know?

that's, well, I know sort of, I mean I, obviously it's unique, but it's also because you just don't have the energy or the time to be a, you know, 12 hour a day worker. And I think that makes you more efficient cuz it makes you really think I, okay, so backing up. I have entirely too much time on my hands, on the, all the time, but it makes me work all the time.

Like, I don't stop given if I, I can, I can drag out a three hour project into 12 hours Because

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I, I like to do things and feel good while I'm doing them. I don't like to feel rushed. That makes me not enjoy what I'm doing. Um, but, uh, I was gonna say this, this is my suggestion about this. Um, going there, there are online business cards and you just tap phones or something like that.

You should, you could, yes. And in lieu of making paper ones, I think that, that, this, this is something new that we're transitioning to, is that you can automatically upload all of your information into somebody else's phone just by like hovering your phones together. I would Google this. I, I just saw it and was like, that's genius.

I think I saw it on, oh God, help me. I think I was on Instagram scrolling and an ad popped up and it was this thing where you have an online business card and you just tap phones and now they have your information.

Taking notes,

Yeah, I would look that up because that, that is the way that I would, because then your stuff's in their phone and they'll be like, oh, I know Megan, so that might be a really good way to do that.

And you might decide on your business name at least,

Mm-hmm.

because they may not remember your name, but they might remember, oh, that acupuncturist, that women's wellness or, you know, wellness Mama or whatever it is that you are, they'll, they'll be able to figure that out easier than trying to remember your name too.

So,

Yeah.

just a thought.

Nice tip. Yeah. That, that's

Yeah. I just thought it was genius. I was like, cool. That's, that's something that I, I need to remember. Um, cuz I'm in transition again too. So, um, anyway, so that's all. Great. So you're focusing on women's women's health from pregnancy to postpartum?

Yeah. And

there's a, um, oh, I didn't mean to cut you off. .

No, no, no. Go. Go

Okay. There's a, I've actually, through another acupuncturist discovered in town, a midwife she's very open to students and I can possibly observe her once a week. I don't really have the luxury of doing, like, of indulging in any more like study time that's unpaid right now.

I definitely need to, I'm ready to work. But when I have time, maybe a year from now I want to really learn from this midwife. I think it's kind of a blind spot in TCM education is the, the midwifery model. And I got really interested in it at the end when I was pregnant and I was thinking I wanted to do reproductive care and I looked up, well, wait, what is an actual midwife in tcm?

Like, does that exist? And I looked it up and it's basically been like that model of care has kind of been annihilated in, in TCM in the same way that it has like all across the western world. And it's being, rediscovered and we're, maybe one generation deep into that. In MAs incredible midwifery of the United in the US here to, to then practitioners like bets and people who are offering mentorships and stuff like that.

So it's really kind of, it feels kinda like a frontier and

that's why I really dig it.

do you think that, that you

would want to become a midwife and incorporate the acupuncture

Oh my God, I really looked into that. Uh,

no way. Because, because

Like you wouldn't talk about not sleeping?

there's there's, no, oh yeah. That, I mean, yeah. Yeah. My birth was 30 hours, so I, yeah. But there's, I just don't wanna go down any more extremely rigorously licensed multi-year paths to get to the point where I can help people.

Cuz in reality, everyone who goes to acupuncture school already has a heart for helping other people. And we have to go through years and years to get the piece of paper that says we're legally allowed to, you know, do X, Y, Z. I wanna get, I wanna get started. I'm, I've really got a fire under me to get started, and I'm not gonna be adding any new certifications anytime soon.

Good. I think it's good to settle, to settle, not to settle in the way that, to settle in, to settle your body, to settle yourself to settle and learn who you are now and what your skills are and where you're, where you're, what you love and what you don't. Tell me a little bit about, um,

I remember talking to you about three or four months ago, and you were really struggling, uh, with, um, somebody wanted you to come practice with them, and then you had, you had a couple

Oh yeah.

as far as where you were gonna go, and it felt like, to me, like a really stressful moment of having to make these decisions.

Also, too, it sort of felt like, I mean, it's all part of the process, but you definitely, you definitely were not listening to yourself in some ways because you, you were not so clear on this, I'm treating this, this, and this. You're like, well, maybe I can go do that with them and be this and do this. And this is something that I always, that I, I constantly talk about to the new practitioners.

Define what you want. It may take a little bit of time, but at least try to define what you want in the beginning, and you can always change it. But it gives you a starting point. It gives you marketing information, it gives you, it gives you great intel into how to approach building your practice. And like I said, you can always change it.

So I remember you struggling with this thing. So tell me a little bit about that and how you got from there to where you're at right now. Tell me what offers you had and what things were going on.

Yeah. Gosh. Well, when you graduate, even if there have been no offers the entire time you're in school or like one or two, all of a sudden you graduate and everything comes at you, stuff you couldn't see. And so I had a colleague that I graduated with at the same. And she was Chinese. She was by like her original language and she was married to a western doctor and she was very accomplished at school.

She had, she was one of those people who just had a natural degree of ease and she paid for education with cash. Those are, that's the grand total of what I know about this chick. And she's awesome. She also had a son at the exact same time as I had my first son. So we were like kind of, um, you know, we were peers in that way and, um, yes, and I really, I have a lot of respect for her.

She's my good friend Katrina. And anyway, Katrina offered me a position. She didn't really have a business established yet, but she offered me a position in her future business and it seemed. Like a really lucrative thing. She took me to a very fancy yoga class and sat me down in a fancy cafe and she had a marketing background and she showed me her ideas all laid out in her, her logo.

And it was beautiful. It was like Dow Integrative Medicine. Something a Caucasian woman could never do without being a total carpet bagging, you know, appropriating ass. And anyway, she just had a really good looking thing going and she wanted me to work for her and, but she couldn't really tell me what she was offering or like where her space was gonna be even,

And meanwhile, I am a part of a family here in Tucson. My fiance's family is all. Very intimidatingly successful to me, intimidatingly successful and me finding my feet for a few years is not really an option. Like I've been in school in my thirties Indulgently for, you know, a long time now. And so anyway, this woman's offer seemed very appealing to me.

It seemed like a legit, really cool, nice job offer. So I felt really pressured to take her offer based on external pressures that I was just kind of putting on myself. And then after a while, time made the decision for me, like it didn't really feel right, so I didn't say yes. And a couple months, months went by and then I saw like her office choice and that she was actually in a much more humble position than she had pretended.

And, um, not humble, but you know, she. You know, we're all starting out. We're all in the same spot. You can't like rush that you're a, a genius some legs up, you're, we're all still like, just fresh outta school, no residency. Here we are.

So I ended up just, I had been renting a room with a, with a collective of, of massage therapists and chiros and PTs at a place called Rooted. And I love them. I love the woman who owns the business. I kind of, she's not just someone that I rent or room from. She's not just my landlord.

She's like a, someone that I can spiritually aspire to that sounds, I don't mean to guru fire her, but I learn a lot from her. She's really, she's really grounded and, uh, and she's blunt like, it's so refreshing to, meet a woman in business who's just like, tells you, and there's no. People pleasing, and there's no, she's, she's direct, but she's also really empathic.

I don't know. Anyway, so I've been running a room from this woman and I ended up just continuing to rent the room from this woman. And, um, she has children and just totally understanding about like, the weight on the license. In Arizona, you get your license anywhere from like two months to five months, and it's like snail mail and it's excruciating.

So I'm just waiting on this piece of paper and, and she understands. So she was like, come back in a couple months. She was really cool. So that kind of sealed the deal for me. And also my favorite acupuncturist in town, is closing his brick and mortar and moving into, rooted into the same collective of practitioners.

So I strategically am renting a room on the same day that he will be there. So I can. Ask him questions, , you gotta get, your experience where you can. So Josh Whitley, yeah. I'm gonna learn from you. And, he studied with, with Dr. Tan, before he passed. And, um, yeah. And then lo and behold, my very first professor, whose last name was Providence, she was my a and p teacher.

Her and her husband have opened up this other beautiful establishment down the street called Flow. So I'm working at Rooted in Flow. It's just really, you can't write this joke. And so, and she, yeah, she offered me a job. She offered me a job, like a job, you know, God, you don't have to be an entrepreneur right off the bat.

Amazing. So I'm gonna be splitting my time between working one day a week, renting, really building my own business and that my Instagram will be behind that and like hopefully online content and courses and whatever. And then one day a week, Working as an employee, good old fashioned, and I have people above me that I can learn from, hopefully.

And it's all gonna be, um, just more experience under the belt. So that's how I'm starting.

That sounds great. That's amazing. She's just waiting for the paper and then he can go.

yeah, yeah. And yeah, right now I'm doing, I'm doing 20 at one of the places and, I'm just waiting for the piece of paper, it does, it feels very, it feels like I'm all over the place, I have to prepare for this on Fridays and I have to prepare for this on Sundays. And the rest of the time I have my kiddo and all I want to do is be around my son.

All I want to do is be a mother. But I don't, and if I had the luxury of being out of the workforce, I would, for a couple years. But in reality, I like the rubber's, gotta hit the road. So I'm, I'm doing these two, these two different legs and I'm just gonna kind of see which one's more profitable.

And then in a couple years I'll, I'll, uh, I'll reevaluate. But that, yeah, just nice and study. That's my, That's my,

trajectory.

I think that sounds like a great plan and. I think it's awesome that you found you got hired. That's also something that's

Thanks. It's really lucky.

not common. Are you hired as an employee or an independent

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, yeah. I've listened to your episode. It's so on point. You're like, you're like a, do you have attorneys in your family? Cuz you're like very legally, like very legal fluent? Uh, I, I'm def I'm an employee. Yes. I'm an employee.

Cool. good.

good. Yeah.

that's new. That sounds like, I don't know, it just sounds and feels grounded to me. That's, that's amazing that you are that grounded in your choices. At this point, I was all over the place with how I was gonna start, you know,

Well, it's kind of what's presented,

But yeah.

But. Yeah, sorry. But it is like we were talking about earlier, I think before the camera rolled or maybe the, maybe we were already rolling, that um, your choices are a little bit narrowed because you have a child and you're limited on your ability to like, uh, life force energy entering the business force as opposed to life force energy taking care of a family.

So, um, yeah, it make your choices and, and go Right.

Tell me a little bit about, um, you seem like you are extremely confident. Are you really as confident as you, as you appear?

Like you haven't once mentioned like this trepidation or fear about starting.

It's interesting cuz I've, I've inter like, I've just moved again and I've interviewed a couple

times and. I also am gonna have to make some decisions here soon and whether or not I'm gonna just start my own clinic again or, or, um, go to work for somebody else. But ultimately, um, , I'm starting to feel imposter syndrome again.

Like even cycling back through. And I'm five years out. Am I five years out? Yeah. I'm five years out and I'm still like, oh boy, what if they find out that I don't know what I'm doing, .

You know, it's just, it just, um, I don't spend a lot of time there, but I can feel it bubble. I'm like supposed to have this conversation with this person.

Um, it was supposed to be this morning, but he couldn't make it. And uh, the whole morning I was like, if he makes an offer to me, I don't know. Like, I don't know if he knows it. I don't know what I'm doing, which is so

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a huge compliment. Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm shaking and my boots terrified. Yeah, I, it's ridiculous. I, and this is the part where I hope I don't say anything that gets me in trouble, but I mean, good lord, yes. We, we come outta school and we, there is no, there is no internship, mentorship, residency, you

know?

And Oh my

not for free.

Yeah. Unless you've got some bucks. Yeah. And yeah, that's, which is a huge void. I would really, my background is in education. I was an English teacher, I'm still a licensed teacher, and I, um, or I stole my license and I. I see a real need for like, teaching clinics. I hope anyone who's listening, uh, takes that to heart.

But yeah. Um, no, I'm definitely, I have a, a great, a great fear. Um, but I, and I, yeah, and I, I guess jealousy of my Western medicine, friends, because those residencies are federally funded, like our tax dollars, like pay for that actually. So, which thank God they do. I don't want a doctor residency, you know?

But, um, God, yeah, I'm, I'm so hungry for experience and I'm so hungry to really, really, I, I mean any, I feel like anyone who is worth their salt wants to become a master. Wants to become an expert in their field. You know, master's, kind of a high, high tall order for acupuncturists that has an Eastern connotation.

But we wanna become experts, right? And so we niche down and we shoot for the best that we can afford. getting experience under our belt, and we're all walking this kind of thin line between imposter syndrome and then, having the confidence that you know that you're good for it. And there's, I mean, so many conditions I've seen, I've seen, I've seen a lot of conditions, but a lot of 'em I've seen like, twice

The way that I am navigating that fear is that I'm really just focusing on women's health and I'm, I'll definitely, do my bread and butter back pain too, but I, um, it gives me, it gives me hope and it gives me confidence to just look at one piece of the puzzle. , even though that it's really comprehensive, women's health, but it's, if I'm not working on,

all the other stuff,

it makes it

doable.

I think I totally agree with you. Like I think that taking that one small bit helps you build confidence in one place right as you go. And not only that, like there's something that I think about often as, um, so my first year of school I was 41, 41, 41 or 42.

Cool.

And, and my instructor standing in front of me teaching basic tcm, right.

Uh, or foundations class was also 41, but he's in 20 years already. Like he started when he was in his twenties. And he is, he is, uh, he's standing up there and he also went to China, learned how to speak Chinese, got his doctorate and his PhD in Chinese did his dissertation in Chinese as a, as a Caucasian human who didn't speak Chinese before he went to China.

So anyway, he's, he's just this like super duper is what he is and, and he is, he is standing in front of me and this is my first year and he goes, I, it's gonna take you guys 20 years to really get this. It takes 20 years to find your, to find your groove. To feel confident, to really understand this, to really understand this medicine.

And it takes reading and studying and continual, and I was just like, he was like, I would never, he does, like, he goes, I would never start this in my forties . And I'm like,

thanks a lot. thanks a lot. It was my first year and I was

like, cool, cool, cool. So I think I have this in my head often too. Like, I'm older, I have to figure out the most efficient way for, to get better at through time and make an impact in the field.

And I think that's one of the reasons I started the podcast because this is a way I can make an impact in the field. And it's an important niche. It's an important space. Um, but it's not dependent upon my skill level as a clinician or practitioner.

Um, but I very much am in this

like, how do I efficiently gain. Enough knowledge and enough experience in a way that doesn't drain my life force as an older practitioner. Cuz it's exhausting too sometimes. Right. Um, anyway, that was a divergent topic, but, but that's something I think about often and I think that that is, um, makes it a little more important to niche. I don't think nicheing is for everybody.

I don't think choosing that is for everybody. Some people really do wanna be general practitioners or some people do get bored.

Oh yeah.

I kind of think I'm a little bit that way. Like I tend to get a

little bored with stuff. Um, but I, as an older person too, as somebody who's getting older, I also am starting to welcome boredom

cool.

bit.

Peaceful

you know, I, I've always been this like super energetic, do this, do this, do this, accomplish, accomplish, accomplish, accomplish. And now I'm getting to this point where I. Security and boredom. Sound really good right now.

Yeah.

a little bit. Just a taste of it. Just a

in the times we live. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly. Some quiet, some stability, some a little bit of boredom in the field, like knowing things and just knowing them. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds amazing.

Yeah.

So you were gonna talk a little bit about your experience with the board exams. Tell us a little bit about that.

Let's go back there,

because when I took the boards, it, I think it was the last time that you could take boards while you were in school. So

we did our

push. Good. Yeah,

Yeah, it was, it was great. And it sucked all at the same time because you're in clinic, you're in class, you're studying for board exams, you're like, it was so, so much all at once.

But it was also like, yeah, gave us a head start to get out and start practicing right when we graduated

so did, did you do your boards while you were in

school?

Yeah.

Wow. Nice.

It was exhausting. I had to, I did most of them. And then I saved the herbal board AF for after graduation because it's, I think the hardest. And, um, and my hair started falling

out.

don't know.

Yeah. My hair, my hair was falling out and I was, and I, um, yeah. And one of the clinics, one of the receptionists had. Had lost her hair. And I had a conversation with her and asked her how that happened. And she was like, I went through something really stressful and it just fell out and it never came back.

So tell me a little bit about your experience.

Yeah. So I never knew that you, that experience of being able to take the boards during. Um, my now employer, my now boss, Jenny Providence, who runs Flow in Tucson, she was, I think like the last group of people that could do that. And um, so she was able to hit the ground running. I remember her talking about how awesome that was, but um, it does sound like it would be a lot.

But anyway, yeah, I graduated, um, and then I had to do the boards and I went to a super small school and my cohort was six women, six women. So, and we graduated all kind of like different times. It was such a small school that everyone was kind of on an individualized track and so I graduated and it was just like me and my laptop. I mean, I was like totally on my own. My school had been really great at recruiting teachers. We had had really incredible teachers come through the school, but the curriculum was not to the test. It was a TCM school, but there wasn't a lot of awareness about the boards in the curriculum, if that makes sense.

So I graduated and I ended up buying all of the talk about fear based decisions. I bought all of the study materials, like TCM seminars, the four big ones, HB, chem, whatever, the other two, Linda Morris. And I studied for the first one for eight weeks. And then I took foundations and I passed it.

And then I studied for the acupuncture, which is comprehensive and builds on that. For six weeks. And I took that and I passed it, and then I had the baby. Oh. And I was two days to the due date when I took that second board. And then, I'm pretty sure I peed my pants a little bit. And then the

then we had our son, and then I took, the biomed.

Biomed, what a funny word. Then I took our version of, western medicine, , three months or four months after my son was born. And I remember all of those experiences, like where I was when September 11th happened. They were all just like incredibly dramatic emotional godless. And I don't think it has to be that way.

I think if you're not, like needing to make money immediately, , like in this position where you're holding yourself over the gun, it can be a lot easier and less stressful. And school is such a clip, I mean like if you could get out and just give yourself the gift of like getting a random target job or whatever it is, go back to your original profession, I could have been teaching or something.

And then ta really take your time with the boards and really let it soak in. What a gift. Because nothing we do rushed, integrates. Nothing actually stays. You don't have a bodily sense of anything that you've ever done rushed and or, you know, academics-wise, in my experience, I have to do things like really slow for them to like really stick.

I've had to learn the point locations like 50 times I wish that I hadn't had to rush so much, so fast, but the pressure gave me a lot of strategies. . I figured out that I could go to tcm test.com and I could go to the, and I could go to the top right corner and I could go to the trend section like by the shortest subscription you can, cuz they, they word the answers like super convoluted because they're trying to keep you on that site for as long as possible, right?

So it's like them teaching you clearly isn't to their bottom line, anyway. So by the shortest subscription you can, and then go to the top right corner of the trends section and just look at the trends and then bam, you're done. And then make a study guide from those trends. And that should take you anywhere from a week to a month.

And then you walk into the test and you have 20 answers already. And I don't know where they get those trends from. They must have buddies somewhere, but they're really helpful and that's how you start the studying. And then, I also would use that one week with the TCM test and I would overlay it right on top of one of Linda of Morris's tutoring sessions.

And she helped me go through some of those questions like, bam, bam, bam, bam. And you know, if you see wire, it equals liver

gallbladder 90% of the time on the test. Even

If you see what.

if you see wire pulse, it equals liver gallbladder pathology. 90% of the questions on foundations, even if it, you know, has nothing to do with like your clinical, what you'll see in clinic.

And so she helped me like knock it out like that. Um, that was really useful. And then, um, and then I was using Linda Morris's cards too, her flashcards and she has 'em, so it's just the blank thing on the index card. And she doesn't use any kind of like highlighting marks or any kind of like color coding or anything.

It's just the blank thing in the middle of space on the card. And doing that over and over and over, , actually really didn't work for me. I needed to use like memory tricks, like put a pink dot on the card or, flag this one or whatever and build like, contextual things into my brain so I could recall it from, the file,

if that makes any sense.

And also getting started studying for the boards was the hardest part. Once you get one under your belt, it's so easy. Once you like, are not so easy, but you're rolling with it, , you have momentum. And so I found a student who was like two or three years out who's still in past his boards, and me and him would like have breakfast and even if the majority of the time we were BSing and just talking about the school or something, we were like getting it rolling,

and so that was also enormously helpful. And the last thing I wanna say is I have a friend who just threw all the stress under the bus and just, just threw away 300 bucks and she took the test like the next day foundations and did that as like r and d. Like she just, she just set herself up to fail foundations one time and that way she could just see the test and from there she started studying and then it was easy for her to like pass 'em, you know?

But the first one's really tricky cuz you're going in blind, you know, but the, they're the same style, all three tests. So once you've got the

first one on your belt, it's a lot easier.

Are they still, um, they made them so that they, if you were getting answers right, they got harder and harder. Are they

Yeah. They're still adaptive. Yeah, they're still adaptive and they're still designed so that there's like two best answers and you're choosing between Coke or Diet Coke for every question. And it just, it's really difficult. Um, you, you get to the point where you just have to, you have to be able to see, are they asking you Cam or Maia?

And you have to know the answers for both those authors, even if they're like contradicting.

So this is a, this is a different experience because, well, first of all, um, your, your experience is a bit unique in that you went to a school that really didn't teach to the exams,

Yes. Uh, yes.

right? And so, so that's unique and I don't think that that's, uh, where most, what most people get. I don't really know, who am I to say what most people really get, but, um, at Ocom they taught, and then they taught to the test as well.

So there was often a comment, there's often a comment of, by the way, this is something that you will see on the N C C A O M. Make a mental note. It doesn't mean it's the way it is, but it is what's going to be on the test. You know, like that. That was definitely, um,

teachers brought that up often, those kinds of things often.

So we were taught to that way. So the fact that you can even differentiate between, um, Maha and, um,

Uh, cam, Uh,

Kim? Oh, cam. Oh yeah,

cam.

I couldn't do that. That's interesting. But also we, all I did was TCM tests and I can't remember if I

would Yeah, that's it. Because their language is so succinct with the tests,

Yeah, it

is. Of the four diamond materials, that's the closest you'll see.

It's the, all of it is the closest that you'll get to the test. Like even the, even sitting in some of those time tests and taking some of those time tests that feels, that's the same feel that you'll get while you're taking the N C C

A O M tests. Yeah.

Um, so I did that and I just did as many of those tests within the, I think I, I would take one month at a time and just

Mm-hmm.

take a million tests and make notes and, um, study that way.

that's a cool way to do it. Yeah.

yeah. And then I have a friend too who did HB Kim, and she just bought the book and basically just spent all of her time memorizing everything in the book.

Yeah, I watched a lot of HB Kim videos. I love that guy. I have a friend that English was a second language, the person I was having breakfast with and HB Kim was sending him his materials like via text, like they'd met in California at some time and he was sending my friend Ollie his materials for free, like, go ESL's, a second language.

Go pass the boards. It was so

cool.

Yeah.

That's nice. That's funny cuz like, actually I have all my books stacked up. Uh, so my computer's up high enough and HB Kim's on the top.

he's

awesome.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, so I, I'm really excited for you because it sounds like you have a good, a good path and you're ready for what's next

I appreciate it. I, I'm really inspired by your work and I learn a lot from, you have one episode where you're like, fall in love with the tech cause that's where it's going. And I, I really do feel like this is the direction. And like right now, when I couldn't get my headphone to work and I had to have my fiance come and do the tech,

I'm, I'm so humbled and inspired by this work and really, yeah.

And one of our graduations, the cohort before me, I went to their graduation and the dean, he was an actual barefoot doctor. He retired in the time I was there, but Dr. Chung. But, um, his parting words to the graduation class was figure out how to get it online, basically. Um, you're not gonna have four pillars, you're gonna have three, but

figure out how

to get it online.

And

What did he mean? Figure out how to get wet.

like you won't have palpation in your medicine, but figure out how to get your medicine online. Figure out how to get your business online, figure out how to integrate digitally, and I, I've gone to such a small school again, I'll say that I don't have that many examples in front of me in Tucson, of people that have gone into like the content creation space or even are doing like herbs online.

But that is definitely kind of my long term vision. I see. There's so much possible with like courses or passive income. There's so much possible with treating things with herbs online. We can't get an acupuncture treatment, over the screen. But, we can help with accu pressure.

But there's just, there's a lot of creative possibility here for our medicine. And we're in this time where like all of our tools are kind of being fleeced by different professions, I don't know. Um, there's def there's, there's definitely a lot to go around,

I think you're being nice there, by the way.

I think that's just you. I think you're being

oh, shit, I'm from the south. Yeah,

I don't think that, I don't think that, uh, I don't think we need to share. I

I

we need to share. We just went to school for three to four years. You know, you don't get to go. I don't like the fact that you get to go take a weekend course and, and use needles.

No. But anyway, that's my thought.

Right on. Yeah. And yeah, and we're in this time where, like the guy who runs the state organization here, Lloyd, he's awesome. I have a friend who says that market forces are coming to take everything we got. So it's, and he's not saying that in like a, like a, Like, get on your defense.

He's saying, , it's time to, organize and participate basically. And we can do so much more together than we can by ourselves. It's just really cool that you've created this space, for people to work together and to have conversations about.

I can't wait to see where you take that, because one of the things that, I think, one of the things that I've learned in the last five years from graduation to, to where I'm at now is that. And I didn't know this. There's always this thing, like, what do you not know? Um, what I didn't know is that as a, as a community, Chinese medicine practitioners are pathetically, unorganized.

And,

and also, well, I'm going to be a little bit verbally harsh for a moment because they're also unkind to each other within this grouping. Not all, I'm going to go back on this and saying, of course not everybody. And I really love interviewing people because, um, I'm really getting to know so many great humans within the field.

Um, but collectively there's a little too much competition, a little too much fear of missing out, a little too much. Um, Of territorialism and I'd like to see that change. So it would be great if the new practitioners coming out could be kind to each other and helpful to each other and remember what it feels like to be new.

And when you're five to 10 years out, help a new practitioner be kind. Give people your overflow. You don't own patients. This is something that drives like, yes, maybe a practitioner who's been in for 10 years and has a full clientele and a wait list of three months. I don't like, I don't sit in a position where you own that three month list, wait list, help other people out, make sure people are getting taken care of in two ways.

Those patients are getting taken care of in a timely manner. And another practitioner is making a living. . We can't, we, I mean, that was one of the reasons that I moved because I felt like I was just so tired of the community. That was where I was. And there was a lot of that. There was a lot of that. I talked to practitioners who had three month wait lists, and I'm like, well, why don't you refer,

it up.

right?

Like, why don't you refer, make

make friends with people and refer out cross, refer with people, like why wouldn't you do that? But it was more like, well, I already put in all this work. I'm the one that put in the work to have this happen, to have this overflow. Why would I give it away? And I'm like, because you're never gonna get to it, because you're never gonna get to it.

And, and if I'm busy and you're busy, then we're all like, that's a good thing. Like it's, it's,

Yes,

yes. I can I speak to that?

Please,

And we had four grocery stores and a two. block radius, and they're all still there and they're killing it. And, um, big corporate ones and little health food stores and it's all good. And there, it's not just like a, like a do good or call to action, like to help each other when we are saying this. You know, it's, it's really like, it's too your own benefit as a practitioner to give the professional little credibility and give your neighbor acupuncturist, um, a leg up or just even like a shadowing opportunity.

I mean, my God, like they just don't exist in Tucson. And honestly, before I went down the path of having a family here, my plan was always to, to move to some coastal city where there was like a great job opportunity because there really, there really is not that here. And I knew that I wasn't gonna be setting up a brick and mortar right away.

Um, anyway, but yeah. Yeah. I really hear you. The competition is just, It's so silly. There's a, there's like three reproductive endocrinologists here in town and I know this lady who is amazing and she got in with one at a dinner party and she does fertility work there. And she's also was a professor in our clinic and I asked her if I could shadow and she said no.

And she wasn't, she wasn't sorry about it. She was like, she was

like, hell

no, basically. And, um,

She didn't want you getting anywhere near what she had set up. You are not coming in and taking my shit

Yeah. And this is like a woman that I like had worked with, I mean, had rubbed elbows with, anyway, I don't know, in the state organization. And she was really sweet and, uh, anyway, yeah, and she's like very accomplished and kind of at the zenith of her career. Like she's been doing it for decades. So she wasn't in any like, hurting position or anything.

It was just like an established like, yeah, I got there first kind of thing. And in the southwest here, like in New Mexico and Arizona, these were like the places where. A couple decades ago, this was like the leading part of the country in this medicine. And then, and now like SWAT closed and like things are really changing and um, yeah, so I don't know.

I don't know if we'll be like the last in the Mohicans or something and like a couple decades from now I'll just be like our all RNs with, needles and weekend courses. But I do hope that the people that have had the good sense to study this in the first place have the same good direction to work together.

Or at the very least not be competitive with each other and yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for this podcast cuz there's needs to be more voices like that.

Thanks.

Yep.

Is there anything else you wanna talk about before we, uh, start closing down

Um, let's see.

Yeah, no,

that's it. I, I feel, I feel good.

Well, thanks so much for coming on. The extrovert in you makes conversations so easy. Not that I'm, I love my introvert people too. But, you are very articulate. I can tell that you were a teacher, cuz you have that presence and it's, it's just a joy to always chat with you.

So thank you so much for spending the time to come on 📍 and, and chat about your experiences as a new practitioner and I wish you all the luck in the world and success and peace and calm transitions. So

Thanks.

Thanks, you too. Thank you for your work and thank you for the organizing and um,

Yeah. best of luck with your transitions too.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Take

Okay. Take care. Bye Stacy. Thank

Thanks.