Conflict is unmistakably a part of life. We all deal with it in our homes, workplaces, schools and churches. This means we need help in learning to properly resolve and address conflict. Evangelist, counselor and trainer, David Jung, shows us how to handle the conflict in our lives in a godly and effective way.

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OC Church of Christ

Welcome to the Deeper Dive Podcast brought to you by the OC Church of Christ.

The Deeper Dive Podcast is about going deeper into God's word, learning new

insight, and taking a fresh look at the verses that impact our daily lives.

Today's episode is part two from Can't We All Just Get Along?

By David, Jung.

So get your scuba gear and let's dive deep into God's word.

Here's David Jung.

So as we continue with this, it's so simple to go and just not have

any direction, not have any focus.

And it goes all over the place.

And then after a while, you don't even know why you're originally talking.

You don't even know why.

And then it becomes a secondary and tertiary issue.

Why?

I didn't like the way you talked to me.

So the original issue is no longer.

Because now you're talking about the way you treated me.

Oh yeah.

I don't like the way you treated me when you treated me that way.

It's like after a while, it's ridiculous.

Right.

And so naming the issue becomes a problem.

So here's a question for you.

Do you ever have a situation?

Okay.

Where?

I don't know.

I'll I'll I'll use, uh, I'll use maybe who, who, what's a, like, we'll use

a couple here maybe, uh, uh, who?

Well, Steve and Charlie, right?

Like the two of them together.

Okay.

Let's say you get home.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then, and Charlie.

Did you get dinner?

He goes, what, what?

And he goes, well, well, I texted you and then Steve goes on.

Why didn't get the text?

Well, why didn't you get the text and never check your messages?

Well, if you would get, let me get a better phone.

Right?

So, well, we can't afford stuff cuz of this and this and this going

on and on and nine, what happened?

What just happened?

He could have called yeah.

Maybe what's the issue.

Hungry.

He didn't get the chicken.

She's hungry.

That's right.

So now we're talking about global data network plans and monopoly and,

and you know, Rogers and at, and T they're too big as conglomerates go.

Why the cheapness in the family, why can't use this fault?

Like, what are we doing?

And then you're getting hungrier and angrier angrier than never gets.

Wow.

So the H a L T because we are right away.

I didn't get the text.

Why didn't you get the text and you jump off as of, okay.

Whoa, I didn't get the text, but I'm gonna get dinner right away.

Then you can have a conversation while you're eating that delicious chicken.

Right?

Most likely she may come in.

You know what?

I was a little hard on you.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

You know, I probably should have checked my text.

Yeah.

I probably need to get that phone thing fixed while you're eating.

Cuz the issue is dinner.

Yeah.

Not the text plan.

Not him being incompetent.

Not him.

Her being cheap.

It.

I don't think anybody's done that.

I'm just saying in Winnipeg, we do this a lot.

Okay.

Never, never.

Right.

Come on.

Remember one guy says, I hate the, I hate the, I C C I'm like, Ooh, that's

pretty prickly since I work for it.

And so, so bro.

Wow.

It sounds like you really impacted, I shared the story.

It's pretty hilarious.

Not so much for him, but for me, I hate the I C C like what is the

I C C wouldn't mean who do this, this specific person you hate?

Is there a grand PAH?

Like what are you talking about?

Say, wow.

Sounds like the ICO.

C's not really working for you.

Can you tell me what that means?

Well, the single sisters, they, they, they never text you back.

Wow.

All of them never text you back.

Well, no, this one specific sister.

Okay.

Well, what do you mean by, well, I asked her to be my girlfriend

through text and she didn't respond and said she didn't want to.

And I was like, wow.

Okay.

So I'm not okay.

Are you saying you hate the entire ICO?

C . And all the single sisters of the blame, but specifically was a single

sister that you texted to be your girlfriend that doesn't like you,

and now you hate the whole movement.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, that does seem kind of silly.

Doesn't it a little bit.

What, if you don't ask the question?

Well, we were working on things or systemic issues.

The I C C ratio.

Is that what we're talking about?

The guy has a problem with a sister that doesn't like him.

That's the problem.

The sister doesn't like you.

That's why she said no.

You might want to ask a question before you text her?

I know we're all new and stuff, but we still wanna do the old fashioned

way face to face a little bit.

Right?

Little bit.

Right.

So can I help you with something?

Find the sister, see if she likes you.

That's good.

Recon.

A lot of good information cuz you get bigger.

Yes, answer.

Okay.

So I didn't bother addressing that.

He hates the I C C I don't really think he hates the I C C.

He started hating himself for being such a silly person.

Li listen.

Do do you want to date effectively or because you might want

to just talk to the person.

So his issue was much more personal.

Yeah.

But how many of us would've reacted that way?

So we're missing the issue.

So the next point is being curious and listening, and we know this cuz if

you're not sure of what the issue is, it might morph as they share information.

Cuz you think it's something, but it's.

Right.

How many times have I put my foot in my mouth only to take

it out, to put my other foot in?

Right?

Because we just keep talking and it doesn't make sense.

So being curious looks like this.

He or she there's a lot of she's here too.

He who answers before listening, this is his folly and his shame.

Do you know, in a shame and honor culture in Israel to call someone a

fool and to bring shame upon them.

Those were fighting words.

In that culture, it was normal to die, to restore the honor of your people.

So when you call someone that, do you know what the problems were saying?

It was shameful.

It was folly to, to, to answer before listening.

I don't think we see it that way in the world.

Well, wherever my bad, like, no, because it can start wars.

It can start wars things outta context.

Right.

You know, when you see a really.

see, you see a review in the movie.

Okay.

You see dot, dot, dot the best movie of the year.

you're like, oh wow.

You go see it.

I wanna see the interview in context.

What if it said definitely not the best movie of the year, but I put

three dots or that's not accurate.

You know what I mean?

You can't report like that, but apparently we can.

And so we're not curious enough to ask the questions.

And so how do we be curious?

These are good questions that I often share with people that I use.

What if somebody does something you don't understand something

that's especially irritating to you instead of reacting badly, I can

say, Hey, I'm curious about blank.

Can you help me understand?

Good.

I suppose, why'd you do that, man?

Like you see that prickliness we don't want that.

I'm curious, can you help me understand?

Most people don't react badly to that.

Hey, I've noticed I noticed something.

I, I noticed that we're supposed to mean, I, I, in my understanding we're

supposed to mean at nine o'clock.

I noticed it's nine 30 now, can you tell me what's going on?

Hey, Dave, you know, your watch stopped.

Oh, oops.

I'm glad I didn't go into that.

All crazy.

Right.

or did you not get my text?

I had to help my grandmother and you shouldn't have helped your grandmother.

You should have showed up.

You.

That's a whole different problem.

Hey, I need your help.

Can you explain to me, these are very neutral statements, very curious

statements, or, Hey, can I get your perspective before I share mine?

And all four, all three discussions I've had with the staff and the

leaders and, and the squad and, and, and all the different people, the

cultural diversity team, whatever the moniker here is in our earlier Bible

talk leader workshop, this was showed about being curious, cuz it's a.

Because how can I know what's going on and what to address?

If I'm not curious, curiosity has gotta be our saving grace.

And I'll tell you what, I mean, how many here, know what you're

supposed to do when you're in fire?

First of all, you're probably doing it wrong if you're on fire, but if you're

in fire, what are you supposed to do?

Stop drop roll.

That's right.

Stop, drop, and roll.

You probably learned at school at school for maybe your first woodworking

class or your first science class, cuz that's when the Benson burners are.

There's a lot higher chance you're burning yourself to death.

You probably wouldn't learn it in math class.

I don't know what you're doing in math class, but no way,

but why stop, drop and roll.

Cause the science behind it is you should stop locomotion.

And when you're in fire, you shouldn't spread like curtains and,

and people and puppies on fire.

If you move around like, ah, so.

Well dropping on the ground because the next next maneuver is

smothering the oxygen out, right.

Less oxygen, less material to burn.

And you're okay.

Do you think you wanna remember all the signs behind that when you're in fire?

You're not, you're really emotional when you're in fire, but what can pass

through what we call this amygdala hijack?

Okay.

The amygdala is very important, cuz it helps you with your

fight flight freeze response.

You see a bear, you should run, you should fight.

You should react and says, ah, this is the bear.

No, no, no.

That's how you get.

But for us when somebody does something that's prickly or scary instead of

freaking out, what if stop, drop, and roll for us in conflict resolution,

dealing with sin is I'm gonna be curious instead of stop dropping.

I'm gonna be curious, cuz what stop, drop and roll it penetrates past our emotions.

You might think.

Well, when did this happen?

Well, let's tell you I had a friend who's a.

Cop for 17, 18 years.

First, couple weeks in the job he was with his staff Sergeant.

They were sitting outside of seven 11.

You, I don't know, just doing their thing, cruise cruiser and everything.

And for some strange reason, these two robbers parked in front of

the Seven-Eleven and ran in to Rob the store with the, I don't know.

I mean, I'm not sure what's going on.

You know, what this person did, new person reached for his phone

to call nine one, one as a cop.

The sergeant's like, what are you doing?

Man?

Goes, oh, oh, cuz it happens.

Cause his immediate reactions call nine one.

Can you imagine the dispatch?

Yeah.

You're the closest unit actually.

You're the actual unit.

That's that's there you imagine that would be pretty silly, right?

Cause it's instinctual to call 9 1 1, you know, after 17, 18 years of copy's not

a cop anymore, you know what he always does when he gets nervous, he does this.

What's he reaching for his gun, his gun, his side arm, cuz he's wearing armed.

Yeah.

Now he's like, whoa, he just, what, what are you doing?

He's just, I'm, I'm just, you know, I'm not doing anything.

So as a friend, I gave him a flashlight, a little tiny

flashlight, so he can put it there.

It's a tactical flashlight force, multiplier, whatever it was good.

Puts it there.

So he can reach for that while, just look at my flashlight.

Cause I wanna see you better.

Like whatever.

Cause it looks silly.

Just that's what he did.

Well, can you imagine you doing this instead of reaching for your

gun, you reach for curiosity.

I'm gonna pull out a question for you can be curious for you.

Very practical.

You can use it right.

Because somewhere along the line, someone's gonna do something

even today is gonna do you like if people are poking yeah, yeah.

Stop poking each other.

I can see you.

Okay.

So I know like, yeah.

Yeah, right.

Like, don't do that for us.

We started thinking about curiosity.

Think about how different, that conflict situation of yours would've been.

If you were curious, are you sure?

You know, what, what happened?

Are you sure?

Because think about us.

I judge others.

by their impact.

I don't care about their intent.

Well, I, I judge their impact and their intent cuz the impact's bad on me.

You have bad intent.

Okay.

But if I impact someone badly, I defend myself with my intent.

I didn't mean to.

Right.

Yeah.

But if I didn't mean to hit you with my car, you still gonna the hospital.

Right?

Right.

Can you imagine standing there saying I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to.

Yeah.

Hi.

Thank you.

I don't think you meant to, but I still have a broken femur.

We judge others by their impact.

I don't care about their intent.

I judge myself by my.

ignoring impact.

I gotta be curious of both intent and impact.

I gotta be curious about this, cuz if I'm not, it's gonna be

problematic when I'm curious.

When I ask these questions, I really gotta listen.

So what does listening mean?

Oops, I went too fast.

Listening means I'm gonna hear till I understand their point of view.

This is what I say.

Understanding their point of view.

Get to the point that I believe they're sincere.

, they may be honest, but not accurate.

You see the difference between the two they're honest and

sincere, but they're not accurate.

They're not lying.

That's the way they see the world.

So I believe that you believe it, brother, but can I share my point of

view to correct some of that narrative?

Cuz think about this.

All right.

If somebody was at the edge of a cliff.

Okay.

And I'll maybe Jay, can I borrow you for a second?

Let's put the, you just stand there in the edge of a.

All right.

And he's just, you're just kinda holding on like little like edges, a cliff.

You yeah.

Like this.

Okay.

So here I am.

I'm running at him cuz I look like he's gonna fall and I do this and

he decides he's gonna fall off.

What does that look like?

I pushed him off or was trying to save him.

You can't help.

Right.

Even a video.

Can't tell only he know.

and only I know he's dead.

Yeah.

He's dead.

So only one witness.

Thank you, bro.

Appreciate that Jay.

Really great job.

when you're helping someone or pushing them, it can look the same.

Yeah.

But you won't know, unless you're curious and say, Hey.

What were you trying to do?

I was trying to help him, but I tripped and I pushed him off by accident.

I mean, I may go to jail for manslaughter, but not for first degree.

Now, if I lured him there with candy or whatever it is.

And, and then I shove him off, like, yeah, that's a little premeditated.

Okay.

And I grease the edge, you know, and stuff like that.

Yeah.

That's a problem.

So can you look at all these illustrations?

I like using pictures so you can.

It looks the same rescuing and attacking.

It can look very much.

The same curiosity is what is gonna help us reach for it.

Especially when you come to cultural narratives cuz in

some countries this means no.

And this means, yes.

Can you imagine, do you understand?

But I thought you understood, what are you doing?

What if they thought they know that I know.

And.

Now are you doing it the Western way or the other way, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

What?

Okay.

Stop.

No, not okay.

Yes or no.

Right.

Being curious helps us with that.

I know in different places, when I wasn't curious, it was really

important because you can break a lot of narratives, a lot of hurt, a lot of

people, and then they get mad at you.

Cause all they're gonna remember, are you ignorant person from north America?

You always disrespect us.

That wasn't my plan in the morning.

I was just stupid.

I didn't know any different.

I don't know if you remember one time when George Bush was very sorry.

It's so funny.

I, I had to laugh.

Um, this is the okay symbol for north America.

He means something else.

In other parts of the world, you can look it up yourself.

Okay.

So he went in this country and he did this to all the leaders in the military.

Okay.

Right.

And everyone's.

And he goes, oh, maybe he didn't get the message and he did it again.

right.

It's something very rude.

And it involves an anatomy and that's what he just called all of them.

And he's like, but I just meant, okay.

He goes, no, you did not.

You insulted an entire country in the military, but he didn't know.

Right.

He probably should have gotten kosha.

Hey dude, I see you do this a lot.

Don't okay.

Don't do it.

It's an international incident.

Okay.

Be curious.

So being curious and listening only then after this point, guess what

happens then I get to share, because I know what I'm gonna talk about, cuz

beforehand, if I wanna go to number one, look at how much we missed.

Wasn't curious.

Don't know what the issue is.

I'm just talking and talking and talking and after a while thinking

you don't even listen, I am listening.

I can repeat everything you said that's not listening.

Parrots can do that, but they don't understand you.

Right.

If you ask a parent, you know, I love you so much.

I'm gonna eat you in the kitchen.

They're like, yeah, I'm gonna eat you in the kitchen.

They don't know what you're talking about.

Cuz there's no meaning though.

They can repeat it.

Does that make sense?

So we think about sharing my opinions.

It makes sense to share my opinions.

It says problems 15, a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up

anger, the tongue of the wise commences knowledge, but the mouth of a fool Gus's.

so when I'm sharing my opinions, there are some rules.

Okay.

I'm gonna talk about this on my message tomorrow, but you can't sin

when you're sharing that opinion, or they're only gonna focus on the sin.

Your message is lost through the messenger.

And when I go talk to a brother or sister, if I'm not checking myself, and even when

I'm being like Jesus, they'll criticize.

because Jesus was being like Jesus and he was criticized , I'm not Jesus at all.

I've got history with these folks.

And so part of it looking at it is when I share my opinion, oftentimes

I wanna be able to lay out a bunch of facts, fact, fact, to prove my case.

But there are a lot of times that the facts aren't so clear anymore, but

what's very clear are the feelings.

And so I like to use this tool that I learned from my mentors many years ago,

it's called the four Fs it's feelings.

First facts.

what do I mean by that?

I look at how they're feeling, I name it.

And then I talk about some facts.

I may say, Hey bro, I know this is gonna be really hard to hear this.

Or Hey, you know, I know I'm not the best example of a righteous man, and

I know you can have some feelings, but you know, I really do love you.

And I wanted to let you know that what you said was really,

really, it was really bigoted.

I, I want to do, but you see how different that.

Because I deal with the feelings I dress the relational side first.

So we call that connection before.

Correct.

Feelings first facts follow.

I wanna make sure, um, I don't know if you, how many you've subscribed to

the, um, the vision, uh, conference.

Some of you have that password.

I did a lesson in the I L C it's called dealing with difficult conversations.

The way Jesus did.

It was some crazy title they gave me.

So dealing with conversations the way Jesus did.

And we talk a lot about emotional connection, making sure we do the feelings

part, cuz we lay a bunch of facts.

It's dry and.

You know, even as simple as this feelings, first facts,

fall sounds something like this.

What if you're running late?

What sounds better if you're running late?

Hey, do you have a watch?

Right?

Does that sound cool?

I mean, it's a fact you're late.

Hey, you know, I, I'm not sure, but do you, is you always a half

an hour late in your culture?

Like that's really insulting.

You're dealing with a bunch of facts, even if they're late.

It's true.

But what if it sounded like this?

Wow.

Tough morning.

Yeah.

Hey, you wanna tell me what's going on very different, but

you're still addressing it.

Cuz most people that are frantically freaking out know they're late.

Now they come in with a toasted sub sandwich and a big drink.

I'm like, what are you doing?

You took time to toast.

It obviously like, obviously there's something wrong with, obviously that's

gonna be involved another conversation, but most people, if you walk in with,

Hey, let's deal with how they're feeling, cuz I would kind of know and say, Hey.

Tough morning, huh?

Wow.

That's really impactful for you.

You hate the whole, I C C that's challenging.

Can you tell me what, what that's about a little bit.

Yeah.

All the single sisters.

I can't believe it.

They're all sinful.

Like all of them, like, like yeah.

All of them.

Yeah.

Well, like all the brothers are sinful everybody.

Right.

Only Jesus can fit that category.

Right.

But we asked questions.

We found out that it was a sister that he asked to go on to date,

to go be his girlfriend by text.

And he barely knows.

It's awesome.

Right.

Great plan, bro.

No, but we found that out empathetic, man, that must be tough for you.

Hey, if you would've done that differently, what would

you have done differently?

Do you, how kind that is?

I probably would've found out that she liked me first.

Oh, great insight.

You can write that one down.

Like, look, that's really good.

Right?

At the end of the day, I really am sharing in a gentle kind way.

I can get it across, even addressing their concerns, even

though they share clearly with.

If I tell them what I think their concerns are, where I'm brief and specific, it lets

them know I'm on the same page as you.

I get it.

Is there anything I'm missing?

Nope.

You got it.

Great.

Do you mind if I share what I think of this?

When I address my concerns, that I'm also brief and very specific

with them because when people are emotional, they want to hear it brief.

They don't want, hear long answer, justifying answer.

I know I'm not the most person, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Adding all this.

The first part of you do it.

It addresses their heart and then you get stuff into their brain.

Remember we talked about the sales people, they get your heart first.

Hey, Steve, man, you work out.

You're the kind of guy that needs this kind of car that only fits two

people forget about your family.

Like, you know, but they're not gonna say it that way when you're

gonna look really cool in this car.

Right?

So at the same time, when we address our concerns, we're allowing

to be able to share opinions.

And once again, you gotta be able to fill in the blanks with some of the stuff

you know, how to do, but this process.

And then I check for understanding all the way through.

I can use scriptures here.

Hey, I understand the scripture this way.

When you think of the behavior that you and I displayed, do you think that was,

what do you think about that scripture?

Right?

There's some times where we can use scripture wrongly, cuz we

use it first with no context.

Even the Bible says don't judge, right?

What are even talking about?

Just don't see you judging me now.

Like, wow, we don't even what you're talking about, but when I set it up really

well, the scripture lands very, very well.

Jesus did it all the time.

Hey, can I tell you a story?

I mean, you know, who had the most difficult conversation.

Can you imagine approaching a murderous king that already

murdered a man and took his wife?

Would you wanna be Nathan?

Yeah.

Nathan's like, oh, I'm gonna go.

Okay.

He snuck that up on David.

Yeah.

You know?

Hey, gotta tell you a story, David, does she, the guy

goes, oh, that man should die.

Yeah.

Hey, punchline.

Ready?

That's you and present like, Ooh, is this the last day of my.

It's amazing.

Read the story.

It's amazing.

He couched it, dealing with David's hard and making sure that David

ended up convicting himself, right?

Yeah.

So why is this important?

Because when we can do this right, and we repeat this and keep sharing until

you think they get you and you get them, because now you've identified the issue.

You're super curious to make sure you got the right thing you're talking about.

Then you get to.

What you're talking about and they get a chance really to hear, because I really

want them to hear that I am interested in listening to what they have to

say, and I believe what they believe.

I, so I believe they believe it.

I don't believe I don't have to agree with it.

I don't have to love what they're saying.

I don't think has to be even true, but I believe they believe it.

And that's good enough for me.

Does that make sense?

Thinking about your situ.

when you went and shared your opinion to this brother or sister that

you were in conflict with family member, what did you say to them?

What, what do you think you could have done differently?

Or did you say it pretty well?

What did you say?

What, how did you share your opinion with them?

Maybe write a few thoughts down about that.

What did you say.

Was it like, I wanna talk about your pride, cuz it really hurt me.

That's not a very curious statement.

Is it.

I'm not very curious.

You're so disrespectful.

Why you disrespect me all the time.

And a lot of times when we don't know how we'll just do it anyway,

versus there's a way to gently walk.

Jesus was so amazing.

It took quite a bit for him to be able to go Matthew 23, cuz there's a

whole 22 chapters before it Matthew 23 is a, you brutal of Vipers, you

know, wo do you like it took a while before he went and laid that out.

There was times for that when someone's obstinate and I know they already.

but rarely people know the impact that they've made and oftentimes a attribute

them just not knowing before evil.

Right?

Most people come to church.

They're not looking to be sinful and destructive.

They're not, why would they come to church?

You can do that for free outside without judging eyes.

Right.

At the end of the day, I really wanna know how am I gonna approach you the best way?

Okay.

So I dunno if this is fleshing out this simple convers.

Go can be very unpacked.

And when I coach people and teach them this with disciple and they're like,

yeah, I saw what I went really bad from 0.1 and we don't know what we're

talking about, but finally we get here.

Even this has parameters to go with it.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, here's something to consider and this is a little more scientific

and that's fine for us to who will take this in cuz you have enough

now to go what you need to go.

but you might have a longer situation where from your sharing, from your

curiosity, you might ascertain or find out what they really want.

So here's a, here's a, oops, here we go.

No, let's go for the next one here.

The spread of conflict.

We always wanna stay at stage one where they're willing to solve the

problem and resolve the issue with us.

Listen for that.

If you don't hear anything of them wanting to resolve.

you are not at that stage.

And you know that it's gonna need some support because you're gonna go on

and on and on talk about stuff, but they're not interested in resolving it.

Well, let's talk some more.

Let's convince them.

I am not interested in listening to you.

I only, I only wanna be heard, well, that's not gonna work, cuz if we're

here to resolve or maybe you just hear the vent and I'm gonna share it, but

I won't be able to share it because it's not where you're at, but I won't

keep doing that cuz I'm not a punching.

but I wanna do it.

Right.

But you know, what happens is if the issue is their behavior and they don't wanna

acknowledge it, what's gonna happen is, and I, I, I use this many times if Jay

who's in front of me, if Jay and I are on the same side of the table and the

problems on the other side, we have a good dynamic we're working on the issue.

The behavior is the issue.

The sin is the issue, not Jay, but the minute I don't know what

the issue is, or I just get.

He moves to the other side of the table.

The problem gets bumped over there on the side.

Jay's the problem.

Now I'm making it personal.

Not that Jay acts proud, but he is proud.

He's the embodiment of proud.

If you look him, the Bible proud there's Jay's picture.

Now it's personal.

You know, when that feels, the volume goes up, the temperature

gets a little colder or hotter and they moved on to the next stage.

Of course when I make it personal, I can't just talk about Jay's pride.

I'm gonna talk about all the other things I'm gonna throw.

We call it the kitchen sink moment.

You see those movies where they're firing guns and missiles

of the monsters not working.

Then they take off their shoe.

What's your shoe gonna do, right?

Is because they're in the kitchen sink.

They're pulling everything to win.

It doesn't matter.

So they're actually not bringing their brother to their senses.

You're bringing your brother to his knees.

Nobody wants to be brought to their knees.

It's a different thing.

And so, as we thinking about Jay, I'm gonna make it.

When it makes it personal, I'm gonna multiply a bunch of issues.

I'm gonna add a whole bunch of issues.

So the original issue is lost.

And then what happens is I'm gonna wanna find some friends that agree with me.

Do you agree?

No.

No.

Oh, pay dirt.

You don't like Jay either for completely different reasons.

Now it's team David, Jay, by himself.

Jay's not gonna have any of this.

He's gonna find a bunch of other friends.

Now.

It's team David.

Team J you've seen this work.

That's how it works.

It's beautiful.

Isn't it for Satan.

But then when you build enough alliances, you can open hostility,

cuz you got a gang now just go.

People are a lot braver in a group gossip, open church, splits back and

forth and you're at that hostile stage.

What if you, all you hear is hostility the whole entire time and

we are talking about your pride.

We you're like, oh, they're building alliances.

They got a lot of issue.

They're making it very personal.

They're not even here to solve the problem and they're hostile now.

So if we don't understand this, you know, what's gonna happen.

This is we're gonna say you two need to get into a room and work it out.

What if they're in stage blue five?

And, and I don't know if you know, it's, it's kind of how a flame works.

It starts off white and it gets blue and hot until it's

black, where you get burned out.

You don't see anything anymore, but it gets harder and harder.

But can you imagine not understanding they're in a

hostile stage, you put them in a.

Oh, they'll get into a room so they can get closer and shoot each other.

That's what's gonna happen when you're in hostile.

You can't engage in that conversation until people stop stolen rocks.

You can't have that conversation.

It's not possible because when you're shooting at each other,

you're not talking very much cuz you're too busy dodging bullets.

Right.

As we think about this, when you listen to your situation, how far is it spread?

If it's the stage.

That you can't identify.

You're gonna go in with the wrong solution, with the wrong idea.

This is can be explained a lot more in another workshop, but this is an idea

to think about where is this conflict?

That with my friend and we're trying to like crazy to solve it, but meanwhile,

they will not stop being hostile.

You can't go to resolving the issue.

Why can't you just resolve the issue cuz we're at blue and until we can find

somebody in between that can stop the rock throwing, we can't get to one.

They keep making it personal.

I own that I'm not sinner, but this specific situation,

what do you mean by this?

I need to get specifics and they may not have one because in time they may move

away from the specifics of the issue and it's just pure emotion and we need

somebody else to be able to fish it out.

Maybe individually, cuz they don't feel safe bringing it up cuz you hijack

their emotions and it's not, not, I mean they get triggered, they get triggered.

It's just the way it is and you get triggered.

And in the end, this is a big mess.

There might come a time where in this conversation with.

You can't stop them from being a hostile.

You can't stop it.

It's just hard.

And there's times where number six, changing the relationship

may be the best way to go.

Right.

And not all changing.

The relationship is sinful because sometimes it's more

destructive to be together.

I'm not say, but you can't walk away throwing rocks.

There here's a grenade have a good time, but if you resolve it to what we call

good enough, but it's probably not best to have them in the same Bible talk.

Probably not best to have them in the same place.

Cuz if you.

You're only creating the conflict that there's just too much water

under the bridge and not on this side of the cross they're ever gonna

solve it, but that's, disunified no, you're just not being smart.

So the irritating thing about the scriptures is in the argument between

Paul and Barnum is a sharp dispute.

They call it.

God never says who's right.

And it's very bad cuz it leads me all confused.

Cuz I need to know who's.

I've read books on Paul was right.

I've read books on Barnabus was right.

I've read books that they're both wrong.

Yeah.

They're probably both wrong.

It was an argument over a relationship.

One was biased and one was just being hard and bar Barnabus converted.

At least there's so much stuff, but God never says, but he was okay with

that separation of relationship.

And I'll use a divorce example.

Sometimes the relationships gotta change parameters in order for

them to resolve the issue again.

And this is what I mean when parents fight, who suffers the kids.

they're too busy, weaponizing the kids.

And so maybe they need a time of separation to get sane again so

they can meet the needs of the kids.

I'm not saying divorce.

Sometimes it evolves that.

I mean, we're not in that place anymore.

We can't control a lot of that, but at the end of the day, for us, it may consider,

we need to change the relationship.

We might have to switch.

Switch churches.

We can do that these days.

We can.

You're like, well, I'm not asking you to leave.

I'm not asking to switch, go to a community where you can have that.

Now, if every church you go to, you get to all these stages really quickly.

You might wanna ask yourself a question, right?

This is my eighth church.

I can't find anybody.

You're like, yeah.

I don't know where you're looking.

Right?

Like, like maybe you're looking at all the wrong spots.

Right.

You're looking for a cat and a dog show wrong thing.

Okay.

But we start.

If I can go through all this and I can honestly, with humility and kindness,

I can say, I love this brother, but I just can't live with him.

I can't.

And because of my own sinful nature.

And a lot of times, if you are a victim of abuse, there's times that it's

not safe and not right to actually go back to the abuser and apologize.

It's not, or they apologize.

I can't do it cuz it doesn't create that safety.

There are times when I've had clients, they had to deal with people that have.

How do you get an apology from someone who's dead, you can't.

And so they have to deal with it in such a way where they resolve

it when the person's not available, meaning that they don't wanna apology.

They don't care.

So Romans 12, as far as it depends on me, I'm gonna live at peace with everybody

and I'll let God sort it out in the end, but you can have 48 relationships,

50 person church like that.

It could be you, right.

It could be you.

I really, really introduce a book to you that, um, I shared it with

some of the staff and some leaders, um, It's an interesting book.

And if you wanna write down the title, it's by a guy named

bill Eddie, B I L L E D D Y.

He's a social worker, a mediator, and a lawyer.

Those don't come together very often.

He wrote a book called five types of people that can ruin your life.

Oh, page Turner for the disciples.

Not really.

It's a great book and it really shows there are some really

toxic relationships that.

Conflict model that we're using won't work because they're not working

with the same rules as you are.

And churches attract folks like that because they're the only places

that listen to them for a while.

And after a while, five types of people can ruin your life, give

you some shepherding skills, cuz you're dealing with this person

and you're like, wondering how can I love them the best way?

And we can get frustrated.

We can get frustrated.

We don't know what to do next.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

I think even going forward, when we have this goal conversation, sharing my

opinion, learning how to resolve the.

Resolving the issue is the next step, because now, you know what the issues are.

You've shared your opinion.

They've shared their opinion, and guess what happens?

You actually know what issue to resolve.

Sometimes the issue is not resolvable.

If you stay in your position and this is what I mean, I'll show you, when you

think about resolving the issue, right?

You position to take ownership, looks like this.

What is it that I think they need to take ownership of now that I've heard everyth.

what is it do?

I think they need to take ownership of, and when I say ownership, it means

to take ownership in such a way where it's a biblical word to take ownership.

I believe I was being proud.

I believe I was being unloving.

What do you need to take ownership biblically cuz you

can't repent of being a jerk.

You just can't because that can be defined 15 different ways.

Right.

But jerkiness, the qualities of jerkiness involves being selfish, took the last

piece of chicken without asking you took all the chicken without talking

to anybody that's specific, but taking ownership is what do you think they

need to take ownership shared with them?

What do you think you need to take ownership of?

And then after I take ownership, what do you think I need to

offer to make it right to them?

What do they need to offer to make it right for.

. So this is what I mean, I use this I've used J I've stolen

his wallet three times already.

Let's say on a Friday staff meeting, we're there and I'm in a hurry.

Cuz staff meeting went long or whatever.

And guess what happened?

I took his wallet by accident, put in my backpack.

It wasn't intentional.

And though this is not my fifth time doing it.

Like I've done it my first time.

You know what?

I feel really bad when I find out I have his wallet.

Wouldn't you wouldn't you just Jay's wall.

Yeah.

Wouldn't you?

Yeah.

You know what I gotta do.

I gotta give Jay's wallet back because here's the thing I can't

take ownership and not give it back and make offer to make it right.

True.

Cuz that's just to get rich, quick scheme.

Look while I stole your wallets.

I'm really sorry guys.

Once you want your wallet back.

So for me, what I'm gonna offer to make it right for Jay is I'm gonna put in

a $25 gift certificate to Starbucks.

Here you go, bro.

$25, man.

I'm really sorry.

I took your wallet.

Most times we stop there to resolve it, but here's the problem.

If I don't ask Jay, what else do you need from me to make it right?

I really don't know what's happening.

What if he tells me this?

You know, David is really unfortunate, bro, that you took my wallet Friday,

cuz I was actually responsible for getting all the food for Tracy's party

and the family, everybody was over and you know, it was really weird.

I set the Walmart and got all this food and you know, I didn't have my wallet

and they didn't let me take it out.

I said it was a Christian's minister.

They didn't.

I was pretty embarrassed when I got home.

I mean, she understood, but people are kind of mad at me

to think I'm kind of an idiot.

And without realizing I took the wallet, do you think a $25

Starbucks card will fix that?

Probably not.

What if he says this, David, thank you for offering the apology.

Thank you for the gift card.

Would you mind coming home though, bro?

I really do.

Denise.

Can you come home with me and talk to my family and tell me what you.

tell them what you did.

I'm like, I think I can do that.

That'll meet the need.

A lot of conflicts don't get resolved is because you offer what you think

they need not asking what they need.

Now.

I made this joke before, if you asked for a plane and for a house in

Tuscany, I think that's a lot for a party for tra I'm not saying chase

not important, but that's a lot.

Okay.

I think that's out of bounds maybe, but if it's not out of

bounds, why wouldn't I do that?

So in your situation, my question would be.

what do you think you need to take ownership of in this situation?

What do you think they need to take ownership of write that down?

What have you offered or what will you offer to make it right?

What do they offer to make it right?

Because even in the Bible, you steal a man's donkey.

You can't give it back dead.

You can't do that.

You gotta give it back with something or maybe a chicken that

goes with it or something, right.

To make it extra.

So what do you think you need to offer?

And the third question would be answered by you.

What do you need from them?

Maybe they've offered something already and you're still feeling

squirrly about it is probably because you didn't express your needs of what

you really needed to make this right.

Cuz you gossiped about me and I'll apologize.

So you'll apologize to me.

But gossip spreads to everybody.

You might want to go back and correct the story for me.

You sin in public.

You're gonna have to deal with it in public.

Yeah.

That's gonna help me.

Yeah.

If you defamed.

Uh, oh bro.

It's okay.

That's the worst thing you can say.

You don't tell somebody it's okay.

That they've defamed you.

They have to go fix that, especially if you're someone that has a voice.

If I defam Jay, it's a big deal, cuz I have a bigger voice.

If I do it on YouTube, I need to apologize on YouTube cuz I wanna

apologize in the least embarrassing.

But the least impactful for him.

It needs to be impactful commensurate with my sin level.

It needs to be, I will lose something when I sin.

Here's something that preaches you might wanna take a look at.

I don't have time for this one, but look at Zakia.

Remember the short guy climb up a tree by climbing the tree.

He gave up all dignity and he was willing to take ownership.

I'm a bad, bad man.

Okay.

What was his first offer to make it right?

Anybody?

Here.

And now I give half of what I own to the poor.

He made an offer.

It was his decision of how to treat the people of Israel that he burned.

But what was his next offer?

If I've ripped anybody off, I will offer four times more.

So just come to me, you know what he did, he actually gave his victims power

to come back and claim things from him.

You know, how much money you would have left at the end?

Probably nothing.

Cause man, if I was an unscrupulous.

Hey, you owe me money too.

What?

He would be stripped bare, but you know what though?

Jesus said you lost everything, but you gained everything.

Now that is a scripture that talks about true ownership.

He owned what he did by standing up and giving them his position, his title.

He offered to make it right for the people, but he gave the people the

right to come back to him and take ownership of, he needs the ownership

of the impact that he didn't even.

. And so when we start thinking about this, can you imagine doing it this way?

Would it not resolve it?

It would resolve it beautifully.

It really would.

And that's the moment where you're like, yeah, amen.

They're talking, they're fired up.

They really offered it.

And even in the future, one of the things is making a plan and following up, because

if I offered Jay to have that apology.

he needs to follow up and I need to follow up to go to the house, cuz I'm gonna,

maybe I leave and I don't wanna do this.

And I ghost him for weeks and weeks.

Right.

I need somebody in my life.

If I've agreed to this, I'm gonna have to do it swiftly.

If I agree to do it and having a mapping, a plan and following up,

it's not wrong to go a couple weeks later, say, Hey Jay, are we okay, bro?

I'm really sorry about what I.

And I'm sorry about the impact, cuz you only have a 50th birthday once you

can't keep doing it again and again.

Right.

You're really embarrassed.

I'm really sorry about that.

And at the end, if he's okay with it, I really have closed the loop when

somebody sins against me and when they and I sin against them, I know this

is a long, long way, but you see how complicated it is, but it can be really

more complicated if we don't do it.

And so you think about how complicated the study series are, but without

them, we have no framework of how to help someone become a Christian.

This is what one framework when we think about it.

Whoops framework.

So when you start thinking about the framework offered as a tool, who do you

need to have a go conversation with?

Who do you need to have that conversation with?

If you live in a church full of sinner, sooner or later,

someone's gonna bump into you.

You're gonna bump into somebody.

You may not always be aware.

Here's another question when you gonna do that.

Yeah, bro.

Amen.

Amen.

Sooner to better.

Just not here.

Okay.

Not here.

When you go to work.

Uh, I, I, when you go to work tomorrow at church, you know, not

work, but, but you're working on your relationship at church tomorrow.

Don't go through the preacher 10 minutes before the sermon.

Can I talk to you, please?

Don't do that.

Cuz you make us want to quit.

Okay.

What, if you don't know how to do this, who's gonna help you with that.

Do you have names on the page?

What if you don't have anybody to help you with it?

Who do you think can help you with it?

Write their name down.

Cause this is the rawest time for your heart to actually have that conversation.

Cause what you're thinking about right now and that you don't want

to go do is the seed of a very large conflict in the future.

Nobody just walks away from God and others because they start off one day big.

It's always these little things.

Yeah.

Hey, what skills do you think you need to learn in the grow in, in order to do this?

I would try, I, I would do this.

Okay.

Say 10 outta 10 is the worst conflict you've ever had in degree.

Don't go after that one first.

Right?

You don't wanna do that.

You wanna go after 1, 2, 3 outta 10 and practice it a little bit.

People that are a little more gracious with.

And then after you work your way up, you can deal with a 10.

You can, don't start off with a 10.

You don't do that.

I mean, you can, if you want, but don't call me right.

Cuz cuz definitely you've walked into some trouble here.

So here's some things to think about here.

There's a really great book by a guy named Ken Sandy.

It's called resolving everyday conflict.

It's a Christian based.

It's really cool principles of how to resolve conflict.

It goes through some ideas that I presented here differently.

I don't agree with everything that he says, but it's a really great book.

There's a lot of, lot of great books that are written by him and his cohort.

Here's another one.

Just in case you have issues in your family, I'm just guessing here, but

peacemaking for families written also by the same guy, a biblical guide to

managing conflict in your home, just in case you have some conflict in your.

Right.

Just in case I'm just, you know, making sure.

And last but not least, you know, if you got a real big problem,

sometimes you wanna reach out.

I'm pretty quick with emails.

I'm not gonna do counseling for you.

That's not what it is, but sometimes you can just share something simple with me.

I goes, well, here's a great book for that.

Or here's a great resource for that, or, Hey, do you remember this slide?

This might help you.

I'm pretty responsive with emails, cuz what I can do for you.

I can probably give you a half an hour and it's pretty.

You might go, why do I do that's because I'd rather share this with

everybody so that it doesn't become something huge and you lose your faith.

Yeah.

I have an email I'm on Facebook.

I'm on LinkedIn.

Don't worry about the I C C peacemakers program.

That's for the church leaders and leaders and stuff like that,

but you can always look it up.

It's kind of cool looking, but LinkedIn, Facebook, I'm pretty, pretty responsive.

So as we kind of close with.

. I want you to think about the most important thing that you walked out

of today with, for you when it comes to this goal conversation, what's

the most important thing for you?

I would love for you to write that down, cuz remember everything's important.

Nothing's important.

What is the most important for you?

Something that sticks outta your brain right here.

You don't have to take notes for this even, but write down or maybe think about

what's the point that you got out of.

It might be a sentence.

It might be a.

could be, be curious, be anything, cuz you can refer back to this material.

Even if you fail miserably, it's okay to look back and see where you missed.

Cuz sometimes you fail miserably, the conversation you can't even go

back and look, where did I miss?

I don't even know.

And you're gonna repeat it again and again.

Okay.

So I'd love for you to look at the person beside you.

Again, if it's known beside you find someone beside.

Share one or two things that you really got out.

This what was important for you cuz as you share it, it comes outta your mouth.

It actually stays in your brain a little bit, a little more.

So take a couple minutes to do that and then we'll, we'll close it out.

Okay.

Talk to the person beside you.

Or if you don't wanna talk to them, find somebody else to talk to you.

Groups of two, three, what was the most important thing for you

that you got out of the state?

Yeah.

So thank you partners, and say thank you so much.

And, um, you turn your attention.

Thank you so much.

High five, whatever it is.

There's a lot of information that was shared today.

Yeah.

And if you would, you want to practice it?

It's really cool.

I love to hear stories of how it worked out for you.

I did this, something like this in the Philippines about seven, eight years

ago, and I still get stories from.

They talked, you know, I really approached my dad and the coolest one was, you

know, he approached my dad, you know, he started the Bible, he became a Christian.

He's like, wow, that's okay.

That's a little extra, like, thank you for shaming us all.

You know, I just resolved it with my butcher.

That was all there was.

Right.

But there's some great stories cuz what it is that it really allows us

to see the fruit of some of this work.

It really works.

This crosses cultures, but there's ways you can integrate it into cultural pieces.

I can help you with that as well.

But as a disciple, can you imagine doing conflict just a little bit?

and then get blessings instead of curses.

Right.

So I really excuse me.

I really wanna thank Jay and Mary.

I know she was the person that brought me in, so she's responsible and

thank you so much for bringing me in.

Okay.

So we're getting done about 15 minutes early.

And so if you have any questions, I'm, I'm up here.

I'm not really going anywhere.

I don't know if they would need to kick you to the building, but you

do have church tomorrow morning.

And also if you got a big, long thing you wanna talk about, don't

create conflict with the people.

They're like, what are you doing?

Right.

So this is not a therapy session.

It's not cathartic.

If you got a quick question, I have no problem answering it, uh,

on the floor off mic, of course.

And also don't use names and numbers and things like that.

If there're long historical conflicts, it's not something

I can deal with in the meeting.

Just, just giving you that caveat.

Okay.

But thank you so much, everybody.

Thank you so much for everything.

Thank you David and thanks for listening to Deeper

Dive but OC Church of Christ.

If you want to get connected to us or want to donate to the program, go

to our website occhurchofchrist.com or on social media @TheOCchurch.

Join us next time for our next Deeper Dive.