What Your Dreams Are Trying to Tell You

Artwork for podcast Spirit Sherpa ~ Spiritual Growth for Spiritual Entrepreneurs

Episode 275 • 16th October 2022 • Spirit Sherpa ~ Spiritual Growth for Spiritual Entrepreneurs • Kelle Sparta | Spiritual Coach and Business Coach

Hey, y'all. I'm Jules. Welcome back to another episode of Spirit Sherpa, the show that helps and encourages you on your journey to unlock your magic mojo. With me as always is the spirit doctor, Kelle Sparta. Hey, Kelle. What's up? Hey, Jules. I don't know. Same shit different day, man. Same- Nothing but rain in paradise.

Is it raining again over there in paradise? Uh, well, it has been all afternoon, but it seems to have stopped. But, you know, we had the, the humidity in the house down to 58 earlier today, and I turned it off because I was like, "Oh, that's good enough." And then I was like, "Why am I so warm? I'm so warm. I'm so warm, and all the windows are closed, but why am I warm?"

I turned the thing on again. It was at 78% humidity again even though everything's closed up, so I've got it running in the background. So one of the things about Panama- That would be why then. Makes a difference ... yep, the humidity is, is a constant battle. You know, there's mold and humidity and yeah. So it's been a process to learn how to be a- be with it.

But, you know, everything else is so awesome, I don't care. Yeah, I've been fo- I've been... Uh, I'm not on TikTok, but I see your Instagram videos. And, like, y'all went out for, I think, tapas the other night. Yes. See, this is the thing. You gotta really actually be on TikTok because, uh, the, the tapas thing was, like, three minutes long, and Instagram only puts out 90 seconds, and that's what gets published to Facebook.

So if you're wondering why my videos are getting cut off in your social feed, it's because we're doing, you know, a, a longer form video, and they don't allow that. So come over to TikTok. Search for me. You will find me. It's awesome.

Bring the tacos, bring the party, bring the music, 'cause y'all's supposed to want of dancing. Oh, yes. Well, and the coati mundis that, that almost stole my phone, right? Did you see that one? The coati mundis. It's, it's like a, a, a weird, um, raccoon that is like a cross between a- Oh, yes, I did ... Yes. Yeah. And they, they tried to steal my phone, so because I was recording them.

I'm like, "Ooh, aren't you cute?" And it came up and grabbed my phone. I'm like, "Okay, I'm an idiot. I'm interacting with wildlife that I don't know if it's dangerous or not, and letting it walk right up to my phone because I wanna get a good shot, because I'm stupid. I am the stupid white girl." Yes. Okay. I remember that bec- That's what we've been talking about.

Well, 'cause m- I started dying laughing. I wasn't even thinking. I was showing my husband the video, and I'm like, "Look at this." He's like, "Why is she so close? Tell her to back up. Tell her to back up. They're wild animals. Those are not pets." So he is fussing at you through the phone like you can hear him, and we're killing ourselves laughing.

I'm like, "This is, this is, this is what we do." Oh, my goodness. So yep, it's all good and it's all fun. But, you know, enough about us. We have a wonderful guest today that we're excited to talk about, and I don't wanna waste a lot of time just sort of shooting the shit here. So I, I wanna... I, I'm, I'm s- I'm excited.

You and I were talking earlier today and, and Jewel was all like... She's like, "Oh, I'm excited about this one." And she actually went and downloaded the book and started reading it and was all excited to talk. So, um, Jewel's probably gonna be doing most of the interviewing because she's got a lot of questions, so.

But we're gonna talk to Delphi Ellis, and, uh, Delphi is the author of the book Answers in the Dark: Grief, Sleep, and How Dreams Can Help You Heal. Her book joins the, the dots together between our sleep, dreams, and mental health, particularly how grief shows up even if no one has died. It explores the three big myths of sleep and offers a sleep cycle repair kit, which I'm sure everybody's gonna be excited about.

We're gonna talk about that. Uh, and the, uh... Her background is as a qualified counselor, and she works mainly in the community helping people going through a difficult time, as she calls it, to find their mojo and get their sparkle back. Hmm, mojo. We're all excited about the mojo here. And, uh, she's in the UK, and she's appeared on several TV and radio shows talking about dreams.

So Delphi Ellis, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to talk to you. Oh, thank you so much. It's so good to be here and, and, uh, be joining you this evening. It's, it's wonderful to be here. So, uh, tell us a little bit about the book. Tell us a little bit about how... First off, how did you end up writing this book?

Why was this the topic that you picked? So it's, it's a really interesting story in the sense that the book itself actually took me 10 years to write, and it, it's, I think it surprises people to know that because, um, in terms of the content, the book itself goes into, you know, quite a lot of detail about the things you mentioned, so about dreams and grief and, and sleep, um, and how that kind of impacts our mental health.

But when I first started writing the book about 10 years ago, I had this almost like idea that I needed to make sure that it ticked certain boxes. So I was very caught up in the original, uh, version of the book, in getting this, um, the science included and, and talking about the science-y aspect of it and stuff like that.

And then one day, um, a couple of years ago, I was talking with some ladies that I support in the community. I do a lot of work helping people who are escaping domestic abuse, and I was talking to some ladies, and one of them turned around to me, I was talking about sleep and dreams and, and those kinds of things, and she said, "You need to write a book."

Not realizing that I was already trying to write one and, and you know, that kind of thing. And, and she said to me, "The way you talk is the way you should write." So instead of me getting caught up in the jargon, which is what I had been getting caught up in up until a few years ago, um, she said, "You need to talk about it like...

You need to write about it like you talk about it." And, and so that's pretty much what I did. I literally sat down with the manuscript again, and I, I just started as if I'm having a conversation with someone. So, and lots of people have said that when they've read the book. They said, "It's, it's like you're in the room.

It's like you're talking to me." And, and that was deliberate. So it's, it's very much instead of me kind of going down the jargon element, I still included the science, but it's, it's more written about it in ways that I think a lot of people will understand rather than coming at it from this sort of academic, jargony, you know, uh, too intense way of, of speaking about it.

So but my, my background is, I mean, I grew up in a house which certainly in the UK was very unique because I, um, you know, I used to come home from school and my mum would be reading the tarot. Um, I remember coming home from school one day, my mum was using a Ouija board. Uh, I remember, I can still hear to this day, I can still hear my mum using the I Ching.

She used to use the Chinese divination tool, the coins, you know? And, and she would, she would do those before she went to bed at night, and I can still hear that. I can still hear the clink of the coins. And so this is not your average kind of British household. Um, but what we also used to do around the breakfast table, we used to talk about the dreams we were having.

So I would get up in the morning and my mum would say, "What, what did you dream about last night?" And this was normal for me, and that's what I grew up with. It was only when I went to school, and I remember going into the playground one day and, and being really excited to tell people about this dream that I'd had, and people looking at me as if to say, "What the hell are you talking about?"

You know, almost kind of, "You weirdo," you know? This, this real kind of weirdo element to it. And, and so, um, uh, and that's when I realized that the life I was living was quite unique. We had a statue of Aphrodite in our front room. We had a black cat. You know, everything that you would put in the more traditional, you know, uh, kind of talking about magic mojo, you know, talking about it from that perspective.

Um, so that was, that was me growing up and, and so it, it came very naturally to me when I started working with people therapeutically Uh, and, and my background is in bereavement. So when I started working with people in bereavement, it came very naturally to me to ask them about their dreams and, and, you know, and about the, the sleep that they were having, so or not having as the case may be.

So, so yeah, that's pretty much where it, it kinda took me. The book itself took a very long time to write, but more because I just needed to find my style. I needed to find my way of writing it. Yeah, you know what's really funny is that when I first started writing what was to be my first book, which actually is what ended up being my programs, um, I got stuck in the same thing.

I wrote, I wrote it, uh, I started it over and over and over again, and I finally I was like, I, I keep ending up sounding strident and, and bitchy. And I was like why? Why? I can't get this to work. And I called a friend of mine up and I was like, "I can't, I can't, I can't." And she said, "Don't write a book. Write a booklet."

She's like, "Just write a booklet." She's like, "Don't... You're taking yourself too seriously. Just write a booklet. Treat it like it's a, a, a workshop booklet." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And I wrote 45 pages in three days because I just took all of the pressure off of myself. So I, I understand where you're coming from.

I get it. Um- And I, I have to say as well, I think w- for me, I think I remember just before I handed in the manuscript, I remember reading the manuscript myself and, and I did the thing which I think probably some people would do. I sent it to my mum, and, um, I, I kind of moved into this space in my head where I thought well, if my mum likes it, it really doesn't matter, you know, what anyone else thinks.

And so I remember getting her feedback from it and, um, and, and just thinking well, you know what? I, I like it. My mum likes it, then you know, it, it, it ticks the box. So, so yeah. But I mean, having said that, my-- I did keep in my mind the whole time, I did keep in mind the people that I've worked with when I was writing it as well.

So, um, on a serious note, I, I did keep in, them in my mind because I thought if I can help them, then, then it's, it's achieved what it, what it meant to, what it was meant to achieve. Yeah. So what's, what's great about having been raised talking about dreams is that you had the benefit of learning the language of symbology very early in life.

And as someone who has spent time teaching people the language of symbology, it's a tough language to grasp if you don't like, think in that way. And so, um, th- you know, that's just such a gift that you were born into that, uh, environment. Uh, m- my mother was a very similar setup too where, you know, we were doing the, the New Age stuff.

So you and I have a lot in common, which would explain the magic mojo thing. Yes. Uh,

I'm just crashing the party as the newbie 'cause I grew up with a Catholic mom, so yeah, I got nothing.

My mom actually, my mom actually went to a convent school, so I think that- Oh my gosh. Yeah. My mom actually went to a convent school. There's a very famous story about her. She was caught, um, trying to escape, uh, r- trying to go over the wall. So it's very famous. There's another story, but yeah. A- and, and really, I think that was probably a turning point in her own journey, so, um, so yeah.

That's, that's funny. Okay, so going to elementary school, I was taught by nuns. See? There we go. We have a convent right down the street from my school, so see? We're right there. And my very Ca- yep, and my very Catholic mom now just loves her crystals. She keeps them right next to she nice... Next to her, you know, uh, statue of Saint Joseph, and, uh, Mary, and her rosary.

They, everybody plays nicely together, so that was awesome. In your book, you talk about working things out in your dreams, and, um, let me see. One of them was like, uh, let's see. Oh, the 4:00 AM mystery. And always, you know, for s- those of us who don't get an, you know, regular eight hours of sleep, you know, waking up, um, I know my husband, he usually sleeps about four or five hours, and that's straight, and that's it, and then he's waking up all hours of the night.

I'm usually up somewhere between 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning, and then I go back to sleep, and then I find that I dream much more vividly when I go back to sleep. Yeah, that's, that's a thing. And, and the... So in the, in Answers in the Dark, there's a whole chapter called the 4:00 AM mystery, and it's actually loosely based on a poem, um, that was written by a character called Reeves.

I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. It's spelled R-I-V-E-S. And, and he has this, um, poem which he dedicates to the 4:00 AM mystery, where he talks about the fact that some people see that as inconvenient. You know, some people see that as the, the wrong time to be waking up in the night. But he also then goes on to say, "But actually this is when, um, writers and painters and all types of creatives have potentially come up with their best work."

Um, so I'm, I'm thinking as I'm saying this, uh, and I think I'm, I'm sure I mention this in the book, is that, um, the riff to I Can't Get No Satisfaction by, uh, The Rolling Stones, Keith Richards actually dreamt that and then woke up and played it into his, uh, with his guitar and tape recorder that he had by his bed.

So this is an example of how some people have had their biggest, most creative discoveries is in the early hours of the morning. And, and so I kinda go on to expand about that, that, that actually rather than seeing 4:00 AM as this really annoying, frustrating, uh, difficult time to be awake, we could actually use it as something that could be seen as, you know, almost like a template for us doing something creative or, or writing or reading or, or doing something like that.

The other thing, though, is to mention, is that- And this is one of the big myths that I talk about in Answers in the Dark, is that we've kind of fallen into this trap, certainly in the West, we've kind of fallen into this trap of thinking that it's unnatural to wake up at night. And yet actually we are designed to have what we call polyphasic sleep.

So to some extent, we are designed to wake up periodically just apart from anything else, just to check everyone's okay and everything's okay in the house. I describe it in the book as a sentinel reflex. So it's almost like we have this internal bodyguard that wakes up and says, "Is everything okay? Yep, everything's cool."

But it's what we do next that's gonna make the difference between whether we fall back to sleep or not. So if I wake up in the middle of the night and say, "Why am I awake? What's wrong with me? I'm gonna feel dreadful in the morning. I'm gonna have an awful day tomorrow because I can't sleep," then I'm gonna be, um, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna get back to sleep.

Whereas if I wake up in the middle of the night and think, "Oh, this is normal. This is just my brain checking in that everyone's okay, everything's okay," then, uh, you will probably find that you fall back to sleep more easily. So I think there's two sides to it. There's, there's this myth that we shouldn't be waking up.

We know that's, that's not the case. It's normal for us to wake up. But there's also the possibility that darkness brings, and that actually we could make some of our greatest discoveries, you know, in the middle of the night. And one of the things I talk about in Answers in the Dark is famous people throughout history who have used, for example, their dreams to influence their work.

So Vincent Van Gogh said, "I dream my painting, and then I paint my dream." Um, Stephenie Meyer, who wrote the Twilight Saga, she dreamt that from start to finish in one mi- in one night, so the story goes. So, and, and it was interesting you were talking about symbolism as well, and symbology. When Stephenie Meyer woke up having just had this epic dream about vampires and werewolves, she didn't wake up and think, "Right, okay, what's the symbolic reference of a wolf?

What's the symbolic reference of a vampire? What is that dream trying to tell me about my psyche or my personality or my life at this time?" She literally knew she'd been given a book, so she took that, and then she used the bones of the dream to, to write what was th- what then became five of probably the most famous books that we've seen in the last, you know, two decades.

So, um, so yeah, I think this is, this is the thing. I think we, we kinda need to make friends with the dark. I think we need to learn how to befriend the dark. From a spiritual perspective, the, uh, 3:00 AM is known as the witching hour. It's the time when v- the veil is thinnest between the worlds in, you know, in, in a day-to-day basis, right?

And then of course, you know, the closer we get to the, uh, you know, to, to Samhain and Beltane, the, you know, the more we get even closer, the thinner the veil becomes. And so in like- Early May and in late October, things get even more... The veil becomes even more wispy. And so, you know, the idea that, that things are being downloaded to us is really not that far-fetched from, from a, uh, spiritual perspective.

No. And also, I mean, what you were saying about how if you fall back to sleep, your v- dreams are then more vivid. I mean, you know, there's science in that. You know, the fact is when we first go to sleep at night, we're only dreaming for about five minutes. By the end of the night, we could be dreaming up to 30 to 45 minutes.

So it makes sense that the dream you have just before you wake up in the morning is one of the most vivid, the most clear, the most intense that you're gonna have. Um, but you're right, you know, and again, this is one of the things I, I mention this as well, is that I think certainly in the West, we've, we've fallen into the trap of when we talk about dreams, for example, we've fallen into the trap of referencing a guy with a beard who lived about 100 years ago by the name of Sigmund Freud.

And so we kind of have boxed our dreams into, well, what did Freud think or what did Carl Jung think? When actually, the, the subject of dreams has been talked about for thousands of years. You know, we've been, we've been understanding and analyzing and interpreting dreams. The fact that, that, you know, there's several references to dreams in the Bible and even in, you know, texts before that.

So to some extent, um, you know, the idea that, uh, dreams fall into the New Age category, inverted commas, that's always made me chuckle because, you know, these are things that h- we've been talking about for, for hundreds of years and thousands of years. And also, of course, we, we know that in the East, dreams are just as important as they are in the West.

We know that in different tribes and different traditions, you know, Aborigine, Maori traditions, um, and in other cultures around the world, dreams still have special significance. So again, it's, it's falling into that trap, isn't it? Of thinking, well, you know, what, what would Freud say, when actually, what do we know from our own culture and our own tradition about dreams themselves?

Well, and, and not only that, but, uh, you know, what would Freud or Jung say? I- I- you're, you're right, it's 100 years ago. The symbologies change and morph with culture, and they change and morph with where you are in the world based on culture, right? So, you know, a- and, and each person has their own symbology that is inherent to them based on their own experiential processes.

And so, you know, to... I, I've never been a big fan of, you know, go back and look at Freud or Jung for that reason because symbology, much like any other language, is a living thing, and it, it changes over time, and it, it is a function of the space in which it is being used. And so it's, it's not really gonna be useful to look at something from 100 years ago.

I mean, sure, it can serve as a baseline understanding, and some things don't change, right? But a lot of things do. So yeah. So I'm with you. I'm so glad you said that, and I, I, I specifically make reference to that in the book in the context that, um, you're right, you know, symbols in their own right, they change over time.

So, you know, 200 years ago it's unlikely that somebody would have dreamt about a mobile phone unless they were dreaming about the future. Um, but it's quite possible that we would dream about, you know, if I was trying to make a phone call in my dream now, there's a good chance that I might be trying to use my mobile phone to do that.

And so, you know, the references of that. At the same time, there's also symbols which, and certainly in all the years I've been doing this, there are symbols that have remained constant. So teeth falling out, for example, is, you know, a, it's a, yeah, it's, it's a symbol as old as time. And, and what's interesting about that is that again, the interpretation of that will be relevant to the cultures and the beliefs and, and the traditions from whether or not you had a tooth fairy growing up, you know, and you used to give your teeth away for money.

That will depend on the interpretation. Whereas someone who comes from a culture where they wear, you know, teeth as necklaces or they have, uh, a specific association with teeth referencing bone, you know, that's gonna be about the body. So it's, it's all contextual and, and that's why I was so pleased what you were saying about it's all contextual.

We each have within us our own personal dream dictionary, and that's one of the reasons why I make the point that Answers in the Dark is not a dream dictionary. It's, it's a reference guide. It's a, it's, um, a kit. It's a, a way of kind of approaching these topics. But ultimately, the best person to decide what their dream means is the person who had it Yeah.

So now I know before we started our episode, uh, Jewel was asking about dreams about death. So you wanna talk about the dream that you're having and, and how, how that's impacting? Yeah, so I've... it's a couple of different versions, and it's always, um, one version was actually, um, walking up a staircase to somewhere, and it's like it was, like, knowledge based 'cause somebody was leading me there, and I got to the top of the stairs and I couldn't open the door 'cause they're like, "Nope, you're not there yet.

The future hasn't been written." So then I saw, see a door off, off to my left, and it's like a, like a surgery door, and I'm like, "Well, what's in here?" And I just bust in it, and someone's having surgery, um, and they actually lose their life on the table. And so what I was told was, I was like, "Well, how did this happen?"

They said, "Well, you weren't there, and it was their time." And I said, "Well, if I can't be there for them at that actual moment that it happened, I'll be there for them now." And so I just remember just holding their hand, you know, while, you know, they were basically taking their last breath. So I've gone from having that type of dream to actually my own death , a couple of different variations, you know?

And so I'm like, "Okay," you know, and with me b- Um, still learning and, and growing on my journey, and, you know, I just started really tapping in of all this stuff a few years ago, um, you know, with Kelle. And so, um, I'm still learning the interpretations and how to interpret that symbology for me. So what kind of advice do you have for that?

And, uh, like for me, and then for just, uh, death dreams, 'cause I know that s- can be scary for a lot of people. Absolutely. And a lot of the reasons for the fear behind death dreams is because people worry that they're predictive. So they worry that the dreams about death means that they're gonna come true, and so that's, that's why people worry about it.

I would say when I talk about p- other people's dreams, it's more an exploration for me. So rather than me saying, "It means this," I'm very much along the lines of, "Well, what do you think, and, and how would you interpret it?" And, and so that would be one part of the conversation. But another thing to think about is that for a lot of people, and I, I do expand on this in Answers in the Dark, is about that death in dreams is actually rarely about death, in the same way as sex in dreams is rarely about sex.

So something like only 4% of sex dreams are actually about sex. Um, the majority... Yeah, the majority of sex dreams are more about control, power, and connection. So if, for example... I'm just going off at a tangent for a minute, but say, for example, I had- No, I have... I, it, it totally hits because I have those dreams too, and I'm like-

"Why was I dreaming this?" Yeah. I'm, I'm having sex in the middle of a donut shop. I don't understand this. Right. So, so this is, this is one of the reasons I mention this in Answers in the Dark, is that sex in dreams is rarely about sex. It's often about control or connection. So say, for example, um, I was to dream about having sex with a boss that I used to work with, you know, at the time.

And what's really interesting also in these dreams is how you feel during the dream compared to how you feel when you wake up. So let's say I was, I was having sex in my dream with my, my old boss, um, who I would never have sex with in real life. Um, but in the dream, I was loving it, and then when I woke up, I was mortified, right?

Because this is not something I would do. So those matter because that can give you an indication about whether or not it's about control or connection. So let's say that particular boss, and I'm using a mythical boss at this point, by the way. I'm not... Just in case any old bosses of mine are listening to this podcast, I'm not dre- I'm not dreaming about them Um, but just to mention that if, say for example in that dream, I'm loving it.

If, say for example during my waking life my boss is actually very controlling, he's very demanding of me, if in my dream I am in charge and I am controlling what's happening in the dream, then that might be about balancing the status quo. It might be because I'm actually thinking, "I really need to kind of control this situation.

I really need to try and get this person to hear me, to understand me, to appreciate me," to, you know, those kinds of things. On the other hand, it could be about connection. You know, it doesn't have to be from an intimate perspective. It could be actually, you know what? I really like that person. I've got a lot of time for them, I feel like we're connected in some way, I think we gel together, you know?

But that does not mean that there's any intimacy or any want for intimacy or, or anything like that. And that's where Freud would've had a field day. You know, Freud would've had an absolute field day with this type of dream. But actually, the reality is that it's probably not what you think it is, and exactly the same with death dreams.

Death dreams are often about change rather than about death itself. That's not to say that, you know, if, if you've got a poorly relative and you dream that they die, that might be a, a subconscious fear of that. It might be something like that coming to the surface. But say, for example, very common dream that a lot of moms have is that their children pass away.

You know, moms often, especially between the ages of about two and three, and again between the ages about six to nine, and then again in their teenage years. And when you think about it, at all of those different stages in their lives, that child is becoming more independent. Between the age of two and three, they might be starting to show their own ideas around fashion, what they wanna wear.

Around the ages of six to nine, they might start answering back. They're starting to show a bit more sass. You know, they're, they're being a bit more sassy or salty in their interactions with people. And certainly in their teenage years we might feel completely estranged from them. You know, we might not even recognize their likes, their wants, and who they are.

And so it makes sense from a metaphorical perspective, it makes sense that we dream about them dying because we might not feel like we know them anymore or we don't recognize them anymore. So from that perspective, death in dreams is often about maybe looking at and- Uh, almost like using those metaphors is what is changing for me right now?

What am I seeing in terms of change? How is change affecting me right now? Am I seeing changes of the old me and the new me? So if when we dream about our own death, for example, that might be the old you, and a new you is, is coming through in terms of your knowledge and the wisdom that you're gaining on this path.

In the same way, the dream that you described of, you know, the holding a person's hand whilst they died, that might also be bringing into an awareness your own ideas about death and, and what y- you know, what you think about it and how you feel about it. It doesn't necessarily mean it's about the death of a person.

It could be symbolically about, or even metaphorically, you know, how do I feel about death? And, and would I want that for myself or for other people if, if that was the case. But one thing that I would say in all of this Is about keeping a dream diary. Because if you don't already, keeping a dream diary can be so helpful in helping you understand patterns in your own dreams.

So you might find you have that dream where... Which by the way, was beautiful symbolism when you were talking about going up the stairs. We often talk about going up the stairs to knowledge and wisdom and, and, you know, kind of, um, that enlightenment, you know, is at the top of that, that whole kind of picture.

Um, so that made total sense when you were talking about going up the stairs and wisdom and all that. Um, but then you went off at a tangent. You know, you went off in a another direction 'cause you couldn't go where you wanted to go, so you took a different direction. Um, and someone died in, in that arena.

And that might be because it's saying, "No, that's not the direction for you yet. You know, that's, that's not where you wanna go." But it also might be, as I say, if you keep a dream diary, you might start to be able to make connections between why you have those dreams when you do. So if you've been talking about death during the day, you might have that dream at night.

If it's the anniversary of the death of a loved one coming up, you might have that dream at night. If there was someone in your circle who you wished you'd been there for, or you would want to be there for, but you'd m- seen them that day or spoken about them that day, you might have that dream at night.

So this is why keeping a dream diary can be so important, um, especially around the death of loved ones, because you will start to see patterns in your dreaming, especially around the anniversaries of, you know, their birthdays, deaths, and so on. Well, and I, I would add to that, um- and, and I say hel- hell yes to everything you just said.

Um, and I would add to it, um, that I happen to know that Jewel is going through a massive up-leveling and at th- and shamanic death is part of a massive up-leveling. And so when you told me the, th- when you were talking about the dream of, of seeing the person dying on the table, and that you weren't there for them before, but that you can be there for them now, to me, that was your old self.

When I was looking at that, I was like, "Oh, yeah. That's exactly..." You know, and given, you know, what, what we talked about earlier today on, on your coaching call, that makes sense because you're having that reflected by somebody else in your workplace right now, right? And so that former you is bringing- I never put that together

Yeah. And so that's, that's what's bringing that together, right? So that makes sense, um, from that perspective, and it could be something totally different. I'm just giving you what, what my interpretation is. It, it... And honestly, it really doesn't matter what I think. It matters what you think because it's your dream, right?

So, uh, I'm just giving options so that we, we see different possibilities, right? It's, it's all about giving people ideas about how to get their own ideas, right? So we're, we're running out of time, but I do wanna talk about one more piece, which is, uh, your, your book talks about grief And you come out of bereavement.

So, and you say it doesn't usually, it doesn't always come from somebody actually dying. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because I've actually been doing some work with people on this, and it's such an important topic. Yeah. And, and for me, this is really where COVID really taught us something, is that death doesn't...

grief doesn't just belong to death, it belongs to anything that matters to us that's no longer there. And I think one of the things I talk about in Answers in the Dark is I talk about disenfranchised grief. And disenfranchised grief, for those that don't know, is where society doesn't allow us to grieve for certain things.

So when a pet dies, we might be met with, "But it was just an animal." Or if, uh, you know, a baby dies, people will say things like, "Well, at least it, you know, you, you can have more children." You know, they say sometimes that people come out with these really unhelpful things, very dismissive, very minimizing, and, and it's, it's called disenfranchised grief because it's society's way of saying, "I don't want you to grieve for that.

You have no right to grieve for that." And it shows up, and it showed up particularly during with the pandemic, where in the very early days of the pandemic, and I, and I don't know about you, if you heard this, but I was certainly hearing of relationships breaking down left, right, and center in the early days of the pandemic.

And because people were stuck at home with people that they just realized they didn't wanna spend the rest of their lives with. And, and so I think, I think this has really kind of brought it home to people. And yet, that loss of a relationship, even though that person hasn't died, the loss of the relationship is as valid in grief as it is if they had died.

And in the same way, it's, um, you know, being made redundant. You know, a person who's spent their whole life working for a certain company or in a statutory service, and then they're made redundant or they retire, they will feel probably a sense of loss for that, but without anybody dying. And society doesn't always get that.

Society doesn't always understand that, and that's why it's called disenfranchised grief, 'cause it's, it's basically society saying, "No, you don't have the right to grieve for that." And yet they do. And so this is what I talk about in Answers in the Dark, is about giving people permission to grieve for all their losses.

And if you were to go back, you know, over your whole lifetime, um, and I don't recommend people do this unless they've got support and, you know, they feel that that it's something that's worth doing. But for some people, they will go back through their lifetime and actually look at the number of losses that they've accumulated over time, if we count all of those things, parents getting divorced when they were younger and having to live out of two separate homes, uh, having to move schools when you were younger because your parents got divorced and leaving all your friends behind, a pet dying when you were little, uh, being made redundant when you were older, uh, you know, having a miscarriage, you know, all the different types of loss that you can experience in life.

If we weren't given permission to grieve for all those things- They do build up, they accumulate, and they will find ways of showing themselves in other ways. And often it will show up in our dreams. And so that's why what we're not dealing with during the day will often show up at night. And, and so that's one of the reasons why, A, people don't often sleep that well because they're carrying with them, you know, this burden of heavy grief that they've carried their whole lives for things they weren't given permission to grieve for.

But they're also, um, trying to navigate life now with everything else that's going on in the world, and, and so trying to keep busy. And I mention in the book, there's a beautiful quote, it says, you know, that we walk around it during the day, but we fall into it at night. Um, and so of course, that's, that's what happens.

And so yeah, that's, that's pretty much where I come from it in the book is, is very much that grief doesn't just belong to death. It's anything that mattered to you that's no longer there. Yeah. I, I do a lot of work with my clients in particular around, um, because most of my people, they had to grow up very early, and they didn't get the mothering and the loving and the caring that they wanted as children.

And there's a point at which you have to step into your own inner adult, and you have to acknowledge that that's never coming. That, that the parenting that you always wanted is never coming, and that, you know, the best you can do is to do it for yourself, and that there's a lot of grief around that. And, you know, so that's a, another piece of the puzzle that most people don't, don't realize.

And, you know, if you're, if you're not receiving love on a regular basis, then, then every... when you finally start to receive love, all the grief that you felt every time you didn't feel loved will start leaking out in the form of tears every time you let love in. And so there's, there's that piece. And then I remember when I got divorced, it was my idea to get divorced, but I still grieved the loss of the dream of the life that we were gonna build together, right?

And so there's, there's a grieving process that happens there, even if it's your idea, even if you're happy about it. Even if you're, you're moving forward positively, there was still the dream that you held, right? And so, you know, all of these things are, are reasons why grief shows up as part of our process, and it's such an important thing to acknowledge because especially in Western culture , especially in the US in particular, we have this thing about death.

We don't talk about death. We don't talk about, you know... No, no, no. We don't talk about loss. We don't do it. No, no, no. Don't talk about it. And it's so unhealthy It is so unhealthy because death is a part of life. Nobody gets out of this life alive. You just don't. Everyone's gonna die. You gotta look at it.

And so it's so important, and so I'm so grateful that you put that into the book. I think it's such a wonderful thing to be talking about, and so needed in our culture. So tell our listeners, how do they find your book, and how do they get a copy? How do they find you? Uh, so Answers in the Dark has its own website, so they can just go to answersinthedark.com, and that gives them all the different buying options.

So they can get it from Amazon, or they can get it from their preferred, uh, seller if they want to do it that way. If people want to find me, they can go to my website, which is delphieellis.com. Awesome. And we will include those links in the show notes, so if you didn't get that, you will find them there.

So, um, final wrap-up thought for the day before Jewel has a chance to ask me. Um, let's see. Um- Your dreams are talking to you whether you wanna hear it or not, so you might as well listen. There's your, there's your wrap-up. I love it. That is, that is my... Those are Kelleism for the day. I love it. Ties everything together.

Well, that's all that we have for this week, folks. Tune in next time when Kelle adds another chapter into your guide to energy, magic, and the spirit world. I'm Jules, here with Kelle Sparta and Delphi Ellis, and you have been listening to Spirit Sherpa. So long, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.

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