The return of Joe O'Dwyer to the Function Tennis Podcast marks a significant occasion, as it has been five years since his previous appearance. In this enlightening conversation, O'Dwyer, a seasoned ATP and WTA coach, reflects upon his extensive career on the tour, which began in 1999 and has traversed through various eras of tennis. He recounts his experiences coaching notable players such as Robbie Ginepri and Alexander Stevenson, shedding light on the mental fortitude required to succeed in the highly competitive world of professional tennis. The discussion delves into the often-overlooked realities of life on the tour, emphasizing the psychological challenges and the grind that players endure week after week. O'Dwyer poignantly articulates the importance of mental resilience, echoing the sentiments of fellow coaches regarding the necessity for players to possess unwavering determination to navigate the rigors of professional tennis. This episode serves as an invaluable resource for aspiring players and coaches alike, offering insights into the complexities of coaching at the highest level, and the various pathways that can lead to success in the sport.

Takeaways:

• Joe O'Dwyer shares invaluable insights from his extensive experience coaching on the ATP and WTA tours, emphasizing the importance of mental resilience for aspiring players.
• The journey through junior tennis to professional levels often involves overcoming significant mental and physical challenges, which can define a player's career trajectory.
• O'Dwyer highlights the critical role of a supportive coaching team and the necessity for players to develop not only technical skills but also mental fortitude in competitive environments.
• The podcast revisits the narrative of Conor Nyland's success, showcasing how individual stories can inspire and shape perceptions of Irish tennis on the global stage.
• The conversation includes reflections on the rigorous demands of the professional tour, where physical stamina and mental strength are equally paramount for success.
• Finally, O'Dwyer underscores the notion that success in tennis is often a marathon rather than a sprint, requiring dedication, patience, and a willingness to adapt in the face of adversity.

🗣️ 3 Key Quotes:

1. “He didn’t ask if they had a forehand—he asked if they were mentally strong enough.”

2. “Just because you played the tour doesn’t mean you can coach.”

3. “It takes a village—and a lot of money—to build a top player.”

⸻

✅ 5 Takeaway Points:

1. Mental resilience is the #1 trait needed to survive the tour grind.

2. Talent is common—coaching and structure make the real difference.

3. Parental pressure can derail even the most talented juniors.

4. The college pathway is a strong option—if done right.

5. Tennis has a hidden dark side, including gambling and Adderall abuse.

Hope you enjoy it

Fabio

This podcast is sponsored by ASICS. ASICS is a Japanese company founded in 1949 to give more people the opportunity to experience how sports and movement can have a positive impact on mental well-being.

To learn more about ASICS visit their website here: https://www.asics.com/nl/en-nl/sports/tennis/

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Welcome to the Functional Tennis Podcast.

I'm.

I'm your host, Fabio Molly, and I bring you insights and lessons from players, coaches, parents and experts who are ingrained in the world of high level tennis.

Today I speak to coach Joe Dwyer.

Joe returns to the show after five years to share even more unfiltered insights from life on tour.

From the real demands of becoming a top player to the toxic role parents sometimes play, Joe gets brutally honest about what it really takes to make it in tennis.

He also opens up about player burnout, shady coaching dynamics, the impact of college tennis, and the lesser known dark side of the sport.

Before we get started, a shout out to our podcast sponsors, asics.

Do you actually know about being a one ASICS member?

If you didn't, you can join for free on the asics.com website and you can avail of a 90 day returns policy which allows you to give their shoes a great test and make sure they're for you.

Give it a [email protected] okay, here's Joe.

Joe, welcome back to the Function tennis podcast.

Good to see you again, Fabio.

How are you?

Glad to be back.

It's five years since you're last on here.

Yeah.

And let me tell you, every time somebody asks what episode should I listen to, one or two people tell me to listen to your last episode.

I think it was crazy.

They love it.

So from being good stories, good storyteller, you know, you recount them well and that people love you.

So I think we've talked about this for a while to get you back on and I'm glad to have you on.

But for those that don't know who you are, first time listening to you, first time to discover Joe Dwyer.

Who are you?

I'm a professional ATP WTA coach.

Had the honor of working with a lot of really good players.

Robbie Ginepri, Alexander Stevenson.

Might not know them, but semi finalist won in.

Robbie was a semifinalist at the US Open, lost in five to Andre Agassi.

Alexander Siebenson was a semifinalist in Wimbledon, TJ Middleton, a lot of doubles guys and then Irish guys would of course be Conor Nyland, whose book the Racket has become a phenomenal success in Ireland and in England.

Got book of the year, sports book of the year in England.

So fair play.

Fair play to Conor Nyland.

Yeah, yeah.

No, you were mentioning Conor Nylan's book.

Tell me you knew Connor pretty well.

I think the last episode we covered a bit of everything.

The last episode, coaching tips, double stuff, some of your stories, you know, your opinions on a few things, which you'll get more of today.

Yeah.

But yeah, we happy.

Connors book obviously did really well.

It was loved by, like, you know, a lot of times you think he's Irish players only get going to get attention in Ireland, but, you know, people in the UK around the world now.

I think he's a bit more in the States now.

So the book did quite well.

It's a great story on the book because Connor called me up and said, hey, Joe, I'm right, I've written the book and it's getting published.

I said it was a very short and sweet telephone call.

I said, that's great, Connor.

He said, I mentioned the book and I was expecting just a couple of lines in the book.

And then when the book came out, fairplay to Connor, he wrote about 15 or 16 or 17 pages about me and my coaching and my personality.

And so it's a great read if anybody wants to.

It's a good insight into the tour.

It really is a great insight into the tour.

What life is like at that level as you're moving from challenger into the Grand Slam level.

Yeah.

What it's like to move in that and what it takes, basically.

Yeah.

No, because most.

Most the success stories, they're normally the books you read of doing the Grand Slams.

And his was nice to get to the real life, what it's like for 99% of the players.

Because it's a grind out there every week.

It's a grind, and you have to be so mentally strong.

I just got off the phone with Jy, who was coaching Riley Opelka, who's now decided to come off the tour.

And I've got some potentially really good players in the pipeline, actually Irish tennis players.

And the first thing Jy said didn't ask about whether they had a forehand, a backhand where they could run.

He said, are they gonna be mentally strong enough to endure the rigors of the tour?

Cause the tour is just like a life as Forrest Gump.

The book says life is like a box of chocolate.

I coached Winston Groom.

I coached his daughter.

He wrote that book.

And he's so right.

The tour is like a life.

It's like a life of, like a box of chocolates.

You just never know what you're gonna get.

Yeah, no, people see, you know, they see the travel, Monte Carlo, Paris, Miami, LA, Melbourne.

They see the beautiful things.

Even if you're just doing that alone.

It gets tough.

Like, first year is probably great.

Then it just gets harder.

There's a mental baggage there.

There's a mental baggage to it.

I mean, I'm really.

To.

You work.

And you absolutely put in the work for the Grand Slams, which means your workload increases.

Cause you have to play five sets of tennis.

So it's really six sets of tennis.

So your body has to have the capability of playing six sets of tennis for two weeks.

So the workload is intense for those four weeks.

And if you lose, that's, you know, that's the end, really, of.

It's like the four elements.

Wind, water, fire, and earth.

You're done with them again for a year.

You have to wait till next.

Next year again before you.

Periodically, you have to do the work for six sets, whereas rest of the year, it's three sets.

It's a little bit easier on the body, a little bit easier on the mind.

Yeah, no, you see, obviously, juniors, where they make a breakthrough, they might win a match or two, and then they're done.

They just can't.

The body can't do it anymore.

The body is a huge part of it.

And then it's just.

It's a mental thing.

And really, your coach becomes an integral part of your team.

The team really makes a difference for these players.

Robbie Giannapoli did a great job with tfo.

So did Frank Salazar as well.

Both of them.

It just takes a village, like Jeff Salt takes a village to produce these players a lot and a lot of money.

I think that's become more evident now.

How much?

Look, we need a coach, first of all.

You know, from an early age, you need somebody who's focused on you, and then it's building the team around that, isn't it?

Between, you know, use strength and condition and sort of coach.

You need your parents in the early days helping the right decisions for you.

And then you have to build from there, don't you?

You're not going far with it.

No.

And the parents, in fact, they can be part of the problem.

Okay, so they can.

They can.

Actually, a lot of them will be very successful businessmen, or some of them will be major, like coaches for football teams, soccer teams, and their kids want to get involved in professional tennis.

And they go out there and they think they can look at a couple of videos on YouTube and look at a couple of matches and think, suddenly they're tennis coaches.

It doesn't work like that.

You have to have the ability to be able to feed the ball to a professional level to your player when he's starting off on the futures and getting through the challenges.

You have to be able to feed the ball and you have to know the variety of feeds.

You have to know the strengths, the weaknesses.

You have to make them laugh, you have to keep them happy.

It's not just, I know the parents thing, you know, a good parent will understand.

Look, you're paying a coach.

Yeah, maybe we can talk about some of the higher end coaches do get paid on a weekly basis, but the coaches are getting paid and they used to trust the coach, do their job.

And sure, you're there for guidance, you are looking after best interest of your child.

But ultimately you're, you're paying the coach to be this, I'm not sure if the CEO, but to steer the ship and you know, to help your son or daughter get to where they want to go.

To where they want to go.

And that's.

And the buzz is there's a great coach out there, Stanford Bolster, who worked with Andy Roddick and Marty Fish.

He's worked with numerous top 10 good friend of mine and he, he and I were both working with players back at the futures level and, and challenger level.

And he, I'll never forget the words.

And he says, I just love this part of the journey for the coaches, the journey from the future through the challenges to the main tour.

Once you get there, we've kind of completed the task and then we'll stay on board or we'll hire somebody else to come on board.

Like you'll have two coaches or you'll have three coaches.

So the workload is not just on you.

You don't have to do the 40 weeks on the road.

But after a while, even the coaches, they just get burnt out.

It's a grind line for the coach because you're missing your family, your family back home.

Obviously some coaches, not coaches, are married, have kids, but a lot of them do.

A lot of them do you miss.

It's a long time to be away.

A lot of the coaches that are for you, if they're used to producing like Jerry Baskin's a great example.

Robbie's coach, phenomenal coach, hall of Famer coach.

I worked with Jerry Baskin and I said, Jerry, why didn't you just continue to.

Robbie was top 20 in the world.

He went, joseph.

It was the downtime.

Like some days I'm.

Robbie would only hit for like half an hour.

And that's my day.

I couldn't deal with the downtime.

You know, I'm used to being on the court with kids and I'm getting them ready to go to college basically, if they make the tour.

Fair enough, he said.

But it's more fun working with kids that are 18 or 19 and getting them to play.

At the University of Georgia, which the biggest schools in America, you produce more Division 1 players than any other coach in living history in America.

Jerry was great to work with.

I mean, I've been lucky to be around some great coaches like Jerry Baskin, Stanford Bolster.

And even with the coaches, there's a network in there.

Same with the players.

We either gel or you don't.

Jail.

There's so many great coaches out there we don't know, but that have done the early work.

It's easy to come along to get a Finnish player, you know, and you're just there.

You're their friend, really.

More than anything.

Maybe it's a bit more prevalent in the WTA Tour and the ATP Tour, but I think coaches have been called out recently online between different podcasts.

There's been talks about it where I think it was Yanko Tipsarevic actually a few weeks ago on the tennis podcast talked about these coaches who he does not think they're qualified to do the job.

They're just there to pick up a paycheck.

They do that and they're there to pick up the paycheck.

But not only that, the players who've made top 100 are top 15 have done it for two or three years.

You're babysitting.

Really?

Then you know.

Yeah, the workload is way lighter than the workload to get them inside the top 100.

Getting inside the top 100 is an absolute grind.

It's a grind.

We know.

Like when's the last time an Irish player made the top hundred?

Never.

Oh, Matt Doyle.

So last century.

So it's.

These guys have worked hard.

Like you worked with James McGee.

Yeah, obviously.

Who?

Others.

Conor Nyland.

Yeah, they're the last two.

Sorry.

Luke Sorensen was top hundred.

Yes.

Yeah, he was.

He come through the Irish system.

No, no.

But of those Irish based players, Conan island, they worked their ass off.

They work harder than.

As hard as anybody worked.

Yes.

And there's still no guarantee you're going to get.

So for you, Joe, what is.

Well, I'm back in Ireland here trying to discover a talent and I can take inside the top 50.

As you're aware, my whole coaching career, my base was at Atlanta before COVID 19.

So coming back into Ireland was a big adjustment.

When I'm dealing with courts that are never used.

They're playing in wet weather conditions and then the coaches that are here.

There's a lot of money involved in Ireland and tennis, so it revolves around putting eight kids on the court, on each court, six, you know, sometimes six to eight kids on the court.

And the money is very lucrative if you do the math for six or seven courts.

If there's one kid that's out there, they're never hand picked out.

So in every other country, if you're one of the best players, you're picked and you're taken by your association and you don't see kids anymore, you're hitting with adults, you're hitting with your coach and that's it.

And he's with you wherever you go.

To every junior tournament in Ireland, coaches rarely, in fact they don't go, they don't chart the matches.

Kids just jump out of the car, no warmups, and go and play.

They're not all like that.

Let's be honest.

There are a few taking a bit more seriously.

They do take it seriously, but they, but they're still.

Doesn't mean they don't do the.

They take it seriously.

But at 15, there's, they're just as talented as the rest of the players in the world.

Everyone else in the rest of the world at 15, the kids go and play futures and if they're in Spain, they'll get wild cards into challengers, main draw, you know, it's a different formula.

They don't play the International Tennis Federation junior tournaments.

If it's the US Open, if they're good enough, they'll get the wild cards into those tournaments anyway.

So it's a real dilemma because the parents think, oh, if I put my kid through the under 12s, under 14s, under 16s, under 18s, International Tennis Federation junior tour, that it's going to make it.

It's kind of a bit of a fantasy world because you're there in the second week in a tournament and you think you've made it.

No, no.

When you, when you haven't played any futures and then suddenly you go out to the futures and some of them are semi finalists at junior Wimbledon.

Can't even get out of qualifying.

They'll be lucky.

Some of them are lucky to make it to 400 in the world and then they just.

There are two types of juniors, I feel, obviously the ones that if you look at the rankings, quite easy to see top 10 players.

Some players have played three tournaments in their top 10.

Some players played 35 tournaments under top 10.

So you can already tell the guys who play very.

And girls who play very few tournaments are up there.

They're proper players.

Yeah.

When you play a lot of tournaments are more consistently.

Even though I have to play the junior game.

Yeah.

You know, they're probably, you know, they won't cop out as he.

They may stick or you know, juniors are terribly bad for.

They lose a set and they're like, I'm going home sort of.

They're not resilient.

And so already you can see these just by looking.

I'm shaking my head because I, you know, and then it's just the conversations.

I've spent so much money on you and you, you should have won that match one and one and you lost it seven five in the third.

And I'm going like, that's just not how you, you don't talk.

I mean I've been in car rides with kids in America with some, some of my clients and I just go.

And I go like, oh well, Donnie lost 75 in the third.

And the dad would turn around and go like that, you're a disgrace to the family.

And they go, what do you mean you're a disgrace.

And I turned and I'll go and then, and then dad will go and look at me and he's paying the bill, obviously go like, I'm the boss here, I can say what I want.

I'm paying your salary.

I said, that's fine.

And then those decisions, what I'll do normally is I'll.

Because they're young and I know I'm going to.

I can get them to at least a division one scholarship.

Like they can go play in a top ten university for sure and play very high up in that university.

If I spend the time, which that's what I'm hard to do every tournament every day.

And I make the decision usually to stay for the sake of the kid.

Yeah.

Because the kids dream big, you know.

So especially at a young age.

Yeah, they dream big.

And it's definitely tough, Joe, for those young kids and parents.

Yeah, they're, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of fights go on between them and especially you get to that decision, where should a player, you know, the day where.

Okay, are you going probably.

Are you going to go to college?

Like there's a big level difference.

Like I think it's pretty obvious if you're going now, like you got to be playing.

You got to have a world ranked futures.

And I speaking to a Coach, about the other day, an Irish coach, a friend of mine, I think he's quite a good coach.

Yeah.

But he's saying, like, okay, as you just said there, you know, at 13, 14, talent wise, there's not much difference between Irish kids.

And there's a gap, but it's not that big of a gap.

But that's the day the gap gets bigger.

And decisions they made, then decisions are made.

Players obviously play futures, better hitting partners, they're playing on clay courts or good hardcourts, and the gap just gets wider.

Like, you're there talking about bringing some Irish players through.

You know, maybe they're not at the level now.

No.

But do you not think that gap is too hard to close already?

No, because I look at a lot of the players that are in college and they stay the four years in college and they don't play that much and then come out and they make the top 100.

They make top 50.

They make top 20.

I mean, Ben Shelton's a great example.

Like, I know Brian Shelton really well from Georgia Tech, where I used to go into practice with Robbie McGee.

I'd be in there.

In there with Jack Sock.

We'd be in there with numerous different people practicing.

And Brian was just a great coach.

He won the NCAs there with the women, and then he went down to Florida, and then his son played down there, and he never left America.

But the coaching team that Brian had in there, he.

He won the NCAS as a junior, turned pro, and reached the semifinals of the US Open that year.

So the college route is good if you pick the right school with the right.

He was obviously.

What was Ben Shelton, Rackland's US Junior.

Was he up to error?

He would have been up pretty high.

So I needed a year in Florida.

That's all you.

Only the year in college.

I think he played till he was a junior.

Did he?

Okay.

And I'm not.

We need to check that.

I thought he did one year in Florida.

But what made him, apart from his very athletic, what made him, like, why was he that sort of player compared to somebody over here?

Let's say.

Let's compare.

Why?

The coaching, pure and simple, the coaching who has the ability to transition you from a junior to the tour just because you played in the tour and you're top 20 in the world or top 50 in the world or top 30, does not make you a great coach.

A lot of them just do it.

So automatically.

They don't even think so.

They can't explain it in logical sense.

And they don't see where the holes are on the players.

They don't see where the strengths or the real weaknesses are.

They'll just go, don't miss that shot.

And like me, but I mean, that's basically it.

So it comes down to repetition and repetition of doing the right drills.

So you have to know what you're doing with this ball before it even arrives to that part of the court.

Your decision is already made.

You know exactly where you're approaching.

You're going to go to the back and the forehand before that ball even gets there.

So wherever the ball goes, your brain is already calculated.

You know where you're serving, who you're serving to, where are you going to go?

Body.

What are you going to go to the forehand?

Or you just kind of hit the.

Back at it like modules in your head.

You just program and it's classic.

You look at the last Wimbledon final looked at was with Kevin Anderson, and, you know, great player, no, Kevin Craig, Tylee's last recruit into the University of Illinois.

Craig, brilliant coach Rajeev Ram played four on his team.

Kevin Anderson was his last recruit.

But I was working with Carrie Franklin and funnily enough, so Stuart Doyle, one of Ireland's youngest Davis cup players, he was there as the assistant.

So it comes down to the.

It really comes down to that.

It comes down to that coaching.

But Kevin Anderson, his forehand had a tendency to let him down.

But we'd never say that on the tv.

Like, if I'm interviewed on the television, it's a big forehand and a big, big, huge backhand.

But the reality is we're going after that forehand, like with.

We're not even going to try and ace him on that side.

We'll try to make him start every single point with that forehand, and we'll go aces on the backhand and then body serves.

And if you go back through that finals match at Wimbledon and count a number of errors on Kevin Anderson's forehand, it's a.

Some things stick around forever.

Your DNA, it's hard to change.

And it's been like that for forever.

Like, very few people figured out how to play Jimmy Connors.

Very, very few people.

I know that's going back in time, but when Arthur Ash Pete him, it was a softball cross court to the forehand.

I watched in Cincinnati, there was a Gonzalez player from South America did the same thing.

And I watched the play and went, God, that's where the hole is.

So the expertise coaching on the tour, and there Are no secrets out there.

Like I said in my previous podcast, there are no secrets.

Everybody knows.

Everybody knows.

I mean, you looked at.

Dimitri was playing Andy Murray before Andy retired, and we all know Murray's backhand is by far his superior shot.

So in order to neutralize that, Dimitri would hit every slice back into the middle of the backhand court.

Now, if you're a forehand dominant player, you're running around that in cane, but Murray just used the back and it took it away because the ball has to be hit.

You know, it's.

You're taking real estate away from Andy Murray.

You can't hurt you as much when the ball is there.

But in order to, you know, you play somebody, there's a game plan there.

Yeah.

In order to play, there's no point giving somebody a game plan.

This is more lower level stuff.

You can't hit the shot.

No, they can't.

That's always a challenge.

You know, you're going to play a match, you can't do that.

So the game plan, you're even worse.

It's even worse.

They can't do it.

Yeah.

So if I say, hey, you got to slice the ball short to the forehand side, they can't do it.

Whereas if I ask Santoro, you've got to slice the ball short to Marat Saffin's forehand.

Lo and behold, if you go, that's Safin's weakness.

Go look at the win loss record with Santoro and safin.

It's like 74 to santol.

So it is the coaches.

They're matchups as well.

They're matchups too.

Yeah, yeah.

But somebody like Federer who had every shot in the game, so all of a sudden he next to you, you know, he's his own game plan, but he can change it up and bring out weakness.

Yeah, he's very subtle.

Federer was very, very smart.

Like an absolute Michelangelo on the tennis court.

And, you know, he might as well moved like.

He moved like something I've never even seen in my life.

Like, just like a whis fed was just.

So did you ever come across Federer?

Yes.

Tell me.

We were in Toronto.

Two good stories on Toronto in the master series.

One was with Federer, and Jeff and I were in the locker room.

We saw we lost the Rosetsky and this is how beautiful Federer is.

There's a couple of really great stories out there.

This is one on Roger.

You'll really appreciate this.

And.

And Jeff goes up to Federer and goes, hey, hey, Roger, my name's Jeff.

And Federer goes, jeff, I know who you are.

And Jeff is top 100 in the world.

And Federer just treated him like he was one of us.

There was no heirs and graces.

And he said, sure, I'd love to practice with you.

And we walk out, there's like 500 people watching Federer.

Next day we go and practice with Karlovich.

I'll never forget that comment, the one that I had to get.

Jeffrey and Thomas Johansson would say, who just won?

The Australian.

The Australian opened my tears and the crowd was aging.

This one.

They're just nobodies.

I think I mentioned that in the last podcast, but it doesn't matter.

Its feather was one of the most.

One that moved like a whisper.

Ed Berg was somebody absolutely unique, too.

Every tournament Ed Berg went to, he would find out the people that were working in the locker room, their shirt sizes, their shoe sizes, sign it and leave packages for them before he left.

You don't hear stories like that usually, you know, you just, you hear, you hear that, you hear the, you know, you hear the bad stories.

Yeah, but, you know, I mean, there's a lot of stuff I think that people don't.

I think one of the more controversial things going on we were mentioning earlier, before we started, was like, Adderall is a huge problem out there on the tour.

People aren't.

It's a.

What we call on the tour, it's legal.

So if you've got an attention deficit disorder, it's prescribed to you.

We all have one of them.

Yeah, we all have one, probably.

Yeah.

Me more than anybody else.

But what it does is if you use it long term use, you'll develop some heart problems.

You will develop heart problems and sleeping patterns.

So by using Adderall, what, what advantage does it give you?

Massive amounts of concentration.

Your home, like put the blinkers on and you literally.

That's all that comes into your mind is that tennis ball and the decision making.

It's a huge advantage.

Use it too much.

You have to usually get a heart operation.

It looks like it's a big procedure, but it's not.

It goes in.

It's a valve that kind of.

It starts moving a little bit too quickly.

No, I mean, I know three or four players that have had that operation.

They're fine, life goes on.

They're okay.

Yeah, not great.

I know, not great.

But mentally it can also.

It does.

It messes with your sleep patterns because you can't come down sometimes off it.

So you have to take something else in order to sleep.

So.

And have you seen players do better because They've taken advantage.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh, no shadow of a doubt.

Your careers would not have made it without the Adderall.

And while we're talking about Adderall and I know that's.

I think it's legal as far as I know.

Yeah.

On your.

What are your thoughts on Sinner?

I just saw today that Sinner like amounted the most points in the sunshine double even though he's been not playing because they've done so bad Al Crest, you know, so he's still clean up.

But what's your thoughts on.

Is he guilty, innocent in your eyes?

You really.

You're so dependent on your.

On your team.

It was a minuscule amount.

So it was very, very, very, very tiny.

So it wasn't a major amount.

So I mean, I think the fine is okay.

I don't.

You know, but it's the message that it sends out to the other players.

That's where a lot of players have the problem.

They look at Mariana Puerto and Guillermo.

Korea tested twice.

Twice Korea for steroids and Puerto tested.

I'm stripped of whatever he did at the French Open.

I mean he might have lost some money.

Hopefully he got it back.

But I mean.

But yeah, steroids, yeah.

There's another one that's out there.

But his was so tiny that like.

But you never know because.

And here's what people will do and this is what Kyrios will go like 90 went well.

Look at Lance Armstrong.

He was tested the whole Tour de France and he didn't even.

There wasn't even a speck of steroids finding them.

And then the samples were retested years later, positive.

But so was every racer in that Tour de France.

Lance was arrogant and if he'd been French, I don't think he would have been stripped of all those titles because Ulrich tested positive as well.

So they couldn't award the.

You know.

Yeah, I think cycling's a different beast completely.

I just.

I don't know.

I actually don't.

I mean, not when you've got Poeta tests and gear in my career test and positive.

But I think you get the guys that top the game may have more money and they can employ the best doctors and they can be ahead of the game.

What they're doing is probably not illegal.

Just hasn't been.

Hasn't been dope federation.

Why they haven't figured it out yet.

There's something out there anyway.

The others, they don't make as much money as you think.

I think it's too risky for, you know, I'M sure it's expensive to do.

Yeah to, at the, to be at the top of technology.

I don't know medical, I don't know drug take, I don't know what's called but so I, yeah, I don't, I think they've tried things.

I don't think so I'm probably a bit naive.

I did think Lance Armstrong was innocent for a large chunk of this.

So I'm a bit more naive.

But yeah, I'm sure they're doing.

Look, I would, yeah and I'd also say like money wise the biggest risk they do, they actually will do with the money wise thing.

I'd say, I'd say it's gambling.

When the players start coming towards the end of their careers, gambling is a huge issue out there.

It's very, very big and it's very hard to detect.

I mean the estimates, it's very difficult.

Very, very difficult to detect that it's a danger.

You hear this obviously I see a lot of.

Between being online, you see a lot of the comments players get in their DMs after they lose a match.

They're quite nasty comments together.

That side isn't nice.

But I was told by certain federations in Europe because when they saw Conan was making his run and they go like this, Conor Gamble, I went, absolutely no, he does no gambling whatsoever.

And he explained the process to me how it's done.

They'll only do it two or three times a year.

And what you'll do is you'll go in the challenger and say you're seated, you know, one through four in a challenger, you're playing a qualifier and the odds come up three to one.

If you're from certain countries, the bets are unlimited.

You can put $200,000 on that bet if you're.

And so to do the Mac, they collect three to one on 600.

Half a million.

It's what they collect.

You think it's that big?

I think it's.

I actually know and I'm not going to mention any names whatsoever.

Yeah, I mean they talk to me and they known circumstances and I've watched it happen.

So there's no point.

You mention any names, it absolutely goes on.

Use a coach.

Your player gets involved in this, like where's your integrity?

You know, I'm not saying it was one of your players, by the way, but how would you feel as a coach if one of your players say, hey Joe, you know, some good money on the table here, I'll help pay your bills for the next Year.

Yeah.

You know, I'm gonna become a huge moral, ethical decision.

And luckily, I've never been in that position, but I would, I would say, no, no, no, thank you.

I did what I did.

Like, I mean, I said, thanks for the information, but no, no, it's not.

It's just, it's just a stain and it's a stain on your brain and.

But a lot of people don't.

But a lot of people don't care.

They really don't care because they're making millions.

So a lot of the players will hide out in the futures for three and four years.

They'll make a million a year from just playing futures and using the betting.

I mean, there's no cameras allowed anywhere, even at the futures level.

Are you sure?

It's known chat between players, if this.

Is absolutely known chat.

But the ones that are enough are the ones where the guy comes and goes, oh, I'll give you $10,000 in cash.

And you've just been set up.

And that happens quite a bit.

But the smarter ones have their syndicates and.

But in Ireland, for example, in Ireland, one of the countries you can't bet on is Russia.

You can't place any significant amounts of money on any Russian players.

None.

They just know.

They just know, like, there's a limit, like.

Yeah.

Whereas if you're in Russia, you can.

The sky's the limit on what you want to bet.

Yeah.

I don't know much about that world.

Yeah, I don't.

I know too much about it, but I mean, I can laugh about it, but it's, it's, it's, it's just well known because that's the only way a lot of these players can fund their careers.

They.

They can't afford the coaching.

It's either that or if you're not from, you know, from the Grand Slam countries like we were talking about, the fees, you know, for Robbie would be seven and a half thousand a week to coach TFL, 8,000 a week.

TFO was paying Robin, the USPA was paying.

The United States Tennis association was paying Robbie Ginepri about seven and a half thousand.

Was that like three weeks of the.

Year or as much as tfo needed him?

7.

That's not coming out.

He got the job done.

That's not coming out of TFO's pocket, though.

No, USTA.

It's coming out of USTA.

But he got TFO, got placed.

Yeah.

So the only other options, if you're not from a Grand Slam country, I mean, Dan Evans had a Whole team of them traveling.

But Dan Evans career changed, really.

It wasn't that he was caught in the drugs.

Roger Federer reached out and took him in and showed him a lot of really cool ball management skills.

Like, you're not doing this, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that.

Dan Evans is a completely different player after he finished because bedroom literally clean them up.

Opened the book, opened the playbook for Dan Evans and Dan Evans got the playbook.

Completely different player than when he was before.

He did his big chunk of training with, with Roger.

I do remember him in Fitz, changing him in the Irish Open here.

Like, I think he was coming in at five in the morning, match at nine in the morning, you know, he was completely wild.

Like, I was still winning, by the way.

Yeah, I know.

When you're gifted, you're gifted.

He was missing the hard work part.

He was missing the hard work.

Show them the hard work part.

And also show them just, you know, when the ball goes here, don't be doing that.

So the coaching and the knowledge is huge because when you have it, it relaxes your mind.

And also if you're looking up at your coach in the box and now you can talk to them, it's a huge stress relief.

We already have the game plan.

They've got their game plan, we've got ours.

And it's a game of chess and that's it at the end of the day.

And it's a great buzz.

I still love watching the Grand Slams.

I don't watch the regular ATP events as much.

The Grand Slams, yeah.

Still tune in.

Yeah.

You talk to money back like players needing money, but I find there's a fine line that players or potential players come from a lot of money.

I know some have shown true, like the Pegulas that work have come true, but it's nearly the ones with too much money.

They don't work hard enough.

You know, they're maybe talented and they never really break through.

Those with no money say they have no money.

It's like the ones with no money who can get money seem to be the hungriest ones.

Seem to be the hungriest ones.

I say if you did a breakdown of the top 20 players, I'd love to know exactly what the real financial stuff.

The real financial stuff.

Well, Tommy Hasset's well documented.

Tommy paid 40% of his earnings back to his business consortium till he was 30.

All earnings.

He got a raw deal.

Yeah.

No, the worst one of all, it's well documented, was Carlos perlock from Argentina, 80% till he was 30.

So I watched per lock.

I was hitting one, the Conan island dude.

And in Finland at a challenger, I just remember him sitting down on the bench and just, you know, just going, estoy me and Fermi in my cabasa.

Me, cabasa.

My head is sick.

And if you look at him, he was constantly injured till he was about 30.

As soon as he turned 30, his earnings went through the roof.

That's documented.

But those are the kind of contracts you're looking at.

You're not going to get away with anything less than and anything less than 30 or 40% outside of its.

And then you have players like Golbus who absolutely loaded Marcello Rios, where they loaded?

Yeah, loaded, loaded, yeah.

Rios story is brilliant.

Brilliant story on Rios.

He goes to Monte Carlo somehow goes into the casinos and he's just starting off on the tour and goes in there and he loses about, I think it was close to a million.

And he calls his dad up like, I just lost a million.

Can you send me some money to the bank at the end of that?

Because, well, how'd you say I was gambling?

He said, you're not getting the penny.

Hung the phone up.

Out goes Rios.

WINS Monte Carlo, 600, 700 pack into the packet.

Yeah, he's good, but I mean, but I mean, the stories are just funny like that.

What was the Andy Roddick one with.

Golus, Golbus and Annie rolling?

Well, this is, this is something that's really, really funny.

So there's a huge self entitlement that goes on on the tour.

Like a lot of people just think they're the bees knees and it's egos.

And there's a lot of egos out there.

Some have big egos and some have no egos.

So it was a great tournament.

It was a tournament in Sweden when all the players go in.

There was a particular restaurant there in Sweden on that tour event, and there's a waiting list for a year to get even to go in and eat.

That's how this pastad.

Yes, this is how great the food is.

So Radek goes in with the entourage.

He goes, I'm Andy Roddick and I'm here with my three mates.

Can we get a table, please?

And the guy goes, excuse me.

And he said, I don't know who you are.

I said, I'm Andy Roddick, you know, don't you know who I am?

U.S.

open champions.

Sorry, sir, we don't have any tables at all.

And so Roddick left in the huff, literally about you know, a couple of hours later, a day later, Golbis goes in with his team and they go.

And he goes.

And imagine, he said, listen, I'm in town, I'm working here.

I'm just in here for the week.

I would really love to have a table and think, I'm really, really sorry.

And.

And Golbus goes, will you open up your hand?

And he goes, gets to be about, like, who knows, like 10 grand.

The guy goes, and I just want to make sure the whole staff, everybody in here is going to be taken care of.

And the guy goes, stop.

I'm going to get them to set you up a special table.

Enjoy your meal here.

Thank you for your generosity.

He knows.

He knows the game.

He knows the game.

But his dad was a very successful one, Very successful businessman, I'd say.

Worked millions and millions.

I mean, Golbus flew around on a private jet for a while.

Yeah, you can't wait.

Those guys can't win either because, oh, you know, all the money in the world.

But no wonder you can't.

You've no money.

Loads of money.

No matter what your story is, successes can be hated on, especially if you come from money.

It's hated on even more if you're from money.

Yeah, you really are.

It can be.

It's.

Yeah, you're playing with.

Playing with fire.

There's a lot of resentment in there sometimes.

Yeah, a lot of resentment.

Joe, let's get on to speaking of money as well.

Another thing we hear a lot in Ireland here is there's no money, there's no courts.

And what's your.

If you were CEO of Tennis Ireland today, what's your action plan?

Action plan would be you'd pick the three or four best players that are.

That are here.

How old?

Starting at 13.

You get them.

You have one coach that'll take an hour and a half.

Private lesson.

That's a coach that's absolutely put somebody inside the top 10, from the juniors to the top 10, not just going out on the tour.

That'd be the first thing.

Individualize them.

They wouldn't hit with a single junior tennis player except somebody who had Davis cup experience or an adult that had played on the tour, say, for example, a Connor or a.

That can be hard, though, to get, especially in Ireland, to get access to those things.

Yeah, to get access.

But if the coach is good enough, you have to have that networking ability.

You must have that.

And then you don't play in the Savannah grass courts because they're wet and you can't play in it.

This surface is illegal in the rest of the world.

You're not allowed to play.

It's banned.

It's uneven.

Tarmacadden with a carpet on it.

I found the story of that was Brendan Evans, who at 13 signed over a million dollar contract with Nike and he flew over to play the challenger and it was all sunshine on the first day.

And the second day it's out of rain and the court is wet.

And he calls his team and he goes like, they're going to put me on a wet court.

And they go like, no, you're not.

You're retiring.

We put a million into you.

You're leaving, you're retiring.

You are not playing on a tennis court where there's water coming off the tennis balls.

It makes no sense.

And also it's being CEO, you have to hire the coaches who have the ability and you have to individualize it.

Here it's groups and then the coaches in Ireland that are really good will not travel.

So say, for example, you're the most talented player Fabio in Ireland.

And I'm a tennis director and I'm working eight hours a day in Ireland and I'm making €100 an hour for my privates and I've got, you know, 16 kids for two hours for my group lessons.

And am I going to take you to take you to the Futures and go out there for three weeks and get paid way less than what you're going to make.

So they.

And then suddenly they've got kids, they got a house, they got a car, they got to get the kids to school.

There's no chance I'm going.

So how do you combat that?

You hire somebody who absolutely is willing to do it.

Very few and far between.

And in Ireland, particularly, because it's this great money to be made in tennis coaching in Ireland.

It's a good lifestyle and the tour.

Yeah, and it's really.

And it's fun.

You're helping kids.

They go to college in America, you know, minimum, they win Irish national titles.

If they go to Trinity University, they go to America.

Their resume looks great.

Irish national champion, Irish international, you know, puts you on the top of the.

It's.

So there's a lot more to it than.

Ireland's not a bad country to become a national champion, because if you're one or two in Ireland, you get one of the best universities in the state.

Yeah, yeah.

And also.

Which then will lead you on to a great job, you know, Great job.

You won't be going pro.

No.

But you'll be getting a great.

So it's a real way to get.

Ahead and it's a great insurance policy.

People don't realize that the tour, you can get injured.

And like I worked with, with Brian Verhaley all the way up to his college and he got to be 68 in the world and he got injured and he couldn't play.

Luckily, he had his degree from Virginia, went back and got his masters.

Chad Carlson, captain coach Chad as well on tour, Nees gave out and didn't have the money.

Went and got his master's degree in Harvard with John Dorn, of all people who played at Harvard with James Blake.

Same thing with John.

They didn't have the money.

Played on the tour.

Would have been very successful had he had a coach but didn't have it.

Him and Chad Carlson got master's degrees from Harvard, which is weird.

I think John is probably too intelligent.

He goes, wait, I can just use my degree to get a job in finance and make a lot of money straight away.

So he was probably more intelligent and he probably made the right call.

But I mean, without that college degree in America, it's a barrier to entry.

You can't be really a tennis director anymore or be in the industry.

And the jobs in America are even more lucrative.

Oh, yeah, it's like 240,000 a year at some of the country clubs as.

Even the college coaches get.

College coaches are on.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, Brian Boland, who was at.

Who was in Baylor University, was half a million a year.

Yeah.

It's a lot of money.

It's so even players now, the players are getting great.

And that's the other thing.

If you're a junior and you play at 15, you play the futurists from countries like Spain and Argentina and you get to be 300 in the world.

You're worth about $100,000 a year now at a top 10 college.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a top 10 school.

You're going somewhere where you're going to try and win the ncas, which is huge in America, and they will pay you that money.

Some of them will pay you for.

If you come for one year, we'll give you $50,000 one semester and we'll pay for your college for the rest of your life.

If you ever decide you want to come back to college, you don't have to worry about paying any coaching fees.

So what are you doing?

You're 300, 400 in the world.

Yeah.

17, 18.

So you finish school.

Do you go pro or do you go to college?

It's sort of a, you know, that's, I think that's a.

You're really at the edge there.

I'm taking, I'd probably take the money because what am I going to pay, 30 or 40% to a business consortium?

Well, you may not have that.

You may not have.

You don't have it.

That's why you're going to, that's why you would go to the schools.

That's a disincentive then.

Jy and I were talking about that.

What happens if you leave your college degree and you've got like 300,000 in your bank account and a degree?

Are you really going to want to go back out and go to spend three weeks in Egypt and nobody there?

Like, it's just you and your coach.

Are you on your own?

No, thank you.

And then next week we'll be in, we'll be in Tunisia for three weeks.

If you're, look, if you're, if you've entered college at 300, 400 a world and you do well.

Yeah.

You'd like to say you'd like to leave college.

You may not be much higher because you're not playing that many tournaments, but you probably know you're probably fitter, stronger.

Yeah.

And if you go in the room, if you go on the run, you're 300, 400.

You're only a few futures away of challenger, actually.

Yeah.

But you're actually in the challenges at that level.

Yeah.

You're really close to, you're really close to three or 400.

You're like, you're, you're looking at playing the qualities in Grand Slams too.

So you're very close.

Like it looks.

You're very close at 300.

Yeah.

Three hundreds are very close.

You're there.

Yeah.

And what I've seen the best, the good players who have potential to break top hundred will do futures and they get runs in futures and they might get two runs of futures and they're straight into challenges.

Like they don't hang around futures too.

Maybe a year of futures year or two, max.

Two is even too long.

I think, from what I've gathered, I think a year of futures, year and a half and you're winning them.

Yeah.

And then you've already won challenger matches in between.

Yeah.

Next thing you know, six months later, you've in a challenger final.

Yuri Vesli is a great, great example of that.

He won about six or seven futures in a row because I remember James McGee beat him in the semis in the future in Texas.

Yeah.

And he'd won his previous five.

So McGee had a lot of really good wins over like he'd beaten Tiafo.

He beat Jazzy.

He's had some great wins out there.

He was always just one win short.

I found every.

He just.

Oh, he's so close so many times.

So close so many times.

Great guy.

He's out there in Las Vegas now working with a great Chuck charity to take kids.

Inspiring kids that come from backgrounds that are really very, very tough.

You know, they.

They come back and, you know, parents may be recusive or addiction or addiction for themselves.

And all of those kids go to college.

They all go to college.

So it's a great job.

It's very rewarding for.

He drives a bus and takes them out into the desert and he's an animal.

Yeah.

I love James.

From your years on the tour, Joe, what one match is the one that stands out the most?

Is there one that you think about.

More often with any of all the players that I've been coaching, Any situations.

That you really remember most vividly that.

You'Re probably most happy of, It'd be more.

And then he goes into the quarterfinals and he's two match points down again and saves those match points and wins that match.

Those are the moments that you live for, really.

It's those saving those match points and winning those matches.

That's the biggest high.

Like recently it was.

Dimitri was playing in Miami and he had.

He had seven set points in the first set and lost them.

And then he won the second, and then he was kind of.

He was.

And then a five all.

The guy had Dimitri the second serve, 30, 40, break point for his opponent, and the guy hits the return into the net.

And that was a match you just don't miss.

Second serve returns.

So those are the moments.

Yeah, yeah.

You live.

Obviously, the high.

The variance between the low and the high is so big.

You know, you come from.

You're down and out, down, and then you've won, which is crazy.

And you don't plan for it.

You don't want to be in those situations.

No, but sitting and watching it is like when an.

I mean, I just.

Those are my favorite scenarios.

Like Adriana Panata, 13 match points down.

This Italian superstar.

If you don't know him, you should go back and take a Look at him.

He's one of the most gifted players that ever played.

13 match points down in row in the Master Series.

Saves them, goes on, wins, beats Bjorn Borg in the final, then goes to the French Open and wins that.

So those are kind of.

I like the match points.

When you're losing the match and you come back.

Those are the highs for me, I.

Think probably it's a lot.

For a lot of people.

I think that's no matter what level boxing is the only thing like you be knock down, it looks like you're out and then you get up and you.

You knock the other person out.

I mean, the high is so high.

That's so funny.

One point can just.

Yeah.

One chain point.

One missed opportunity.

It's like you missed that easy forehand.

Yeah.

Roddick's won in the final of the Wimbledon when he had that match point.

He.

The backhand volley, all he'd do is hit into the court.

And in fact, if he'd let the ball go, it would have landed in the alley.

That's a better story as well, I think that he let the ball go against Novak.

But look, I'm sure Federer won.

Federer shouldn't have won the final against Rado.

Yeah.

So, you know, and he should have won the one against Jocko.

If you're there long enough, it comes.

Back around long enough, it comes back.

I mean, I mean, I mean.

Yeah, I mean, the ones that I tend to remember, like, you know, you know, Feder being, you know, to match points up in Novak.

And then Novak just slaps the forehand winner cross court.

I'll never forget it.

Like when.

What.

Yeah, but even like Federer probably should have beaten Nadal as well.

And Wimbledon.

Yeah, they're great matches.

I mean, that's exciting.

And the funny thing about the tour, that people don't get it.

It'll all be.

It'll continuously roll.

Like when you think, oh, there's going to be nobody, or no matchups.

Match up with bjorn Borg and McEnroe, suddenly you've got Agassi and Sampras.

Now we've got Sinner and Zeriev.

And it's just the show keeps going.

I think sometimes there's always maybe a couple of years where it takes a while to readjust.

I think now we're.

We're getting there.

Like obviously, Alra Sinner, like Fona coming through.

You know, they're three big names and then there's obviously.

Yeah, there is a Zerevs the Medevs jock, which is still, you know, he's dangerous, like.

Yeah.

And they play till their well into their 30s now.

Rinka's 40, I think, today.

Yeah, it's.

It's phenomenal.

And then people go, like, there was a period of time where the players retired early.

Like, McEnroe went early.

Borg went very early during those hours.

But previous to that, the players stayed on and played like ken Roose, almost 39 in the finals of Wimbledon, and Jimmy Connors was 39 in the semis at the US Open.

Now Rattillova won a mixed doubles US Open title, one of the Bryan brothers at 49.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Well, you can see, look, they've made their money, they've won tournaments, just want to get on with their life.

And sometimes you see players, you know, you don't see.

You see them a few years later, and they age a lot.

You know, when they retire at 40 and you see them at 50, like, oh, they've aged.

When they retire at 30, you see them 10 years, they're still young.

At 40, you see something like Marit Safa, now he's young and like, late in youth, they're young.

They're no older than Federer.

Like.

Yeah.

And they still seem, even though they retired 20 years ago, they still look.

So young and they still have that energy about them.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

I mean, and it's just there's always so many talented players out there that, you know, like, Rios never won the Grand Slam, yet he's one in the world.

Curious is another one.

What would you take, actually question?

I've asked some guests.

Yeah.

Would you prefer to be world number one and not win a Slam?

Rios.

Or win a slab and not be world number one throughout your career?

Win a Slam and not be number one.

Absolutely.

Win a Slam.

Okay.

What about world number one or Olympic medal only, like, so did you take world number one or would you take one?

So there's a press that is the presence, like world number.

Sorry, Grand Islam, world number one, Olympic gold.

That seems to be the.

Yeah, yeah.

That's crazy.

But it's crazy.

Yeah.

Joe, anything, any bits of advice you'd like to end with us today?

What's something important that young juniors and their parents should be told?

I think that if they really want a professional tennis career, I think one of my favorite players that I worked with and I spent a lot of time with him early on and got him ready for the tour by saying, Robert Galloway, he's a great example.

He went to Wolford College in America.

It's A no place school.

And he showed up my doorstep and he'd heard like, about like the coach.

And I took him out, I took him through some drills and then I, I said, no, no, no.

I said, doubles is only going to be your option.

I will work with you for the next three or four months.

I'll show you every single doubles drill.

Then you do this religiously, an hour and a half, six days a week.

Then you play your two sets and a tiebreaker in the afternoon and you find some.

You do the.

Because you don't.

You have to have a coach to feed you the balls and singles.

In doubles, you don't.

You can do the trolls among yourselves.

And if you're disciplined enough and lo and behold, off he goes, he does the training.

And like you said, he won his first six futures.

And doubles, now, it's a longer grind.

You have to get to top 50, but if you like it, you have a career.

Like, he's only 31.

He can play till he's 44.

Yeah.

What's he rank now?

30.

He's a big guy, isn't he?

Yeah, he's a great guy.

I think I came across him in Roland Garris last year's practice and I didn't know who, you know, you sometimes.

Yeah, I don't know all the players.

I don't have the practice schedule front of me.

And you're like, who you know.

But doubles is definitely an option.

Now, a lot of players that play singles do not like the doubles.

McGee that I worked with.

Saltonstein, different game.

Different game.

Yeah.

Oh, it's completely different.

And so a lot of the coaches, if you do doubles, you get pigeonholes as a doubles coach.

So I, I really had no interest in coaching doubles on the tour.

I just, I mean, some players, some.

Coaches like it, they're good at it.

And they are double specialists.

Double specialists.

But for me, I know that Riley Opelka kind of took a rip at the, at the doubles players, but at the end of the day, yes, some of the singles players could absolutely play doubles, but there's a lot of people that wouldn't be out there playing doubles with like Andre Agassi.

I watched him play doubles once and was like, no, dude.

Like, no, you need.

I don't have time for that.

Yeah.

And he just looked completely out of sorts, you know, But I mean, the doubles is just, it's another option to pursue.

So that's your second option.

So if you don't, if you don't, if you know, you're not going to make it in a single.

You quite don't have the speed.

Doubles is a.

If you enjoy the lifestyle.

But it's a longer road.

It's a tend to be older.

It's a longer.

Great.

There's a lot of changing.

Yeah, yeah.

There a lot of swapping, a lot of compatibility.

But I mean a lot of the players will use the doubles to.

For their housing.

We finish.

We finish up.

Joe, that was a good chat.

I still have to get into the courts here with you.

Injury didn't take my 40s just being an injury freak.

So hopefully by the summer.

Never too late.

Never too late.

I work with Own Collins who's like.

He's like number one now in the.

I believe it's the 55s or 60s, but he won the world 45s.

I worked with Own.

I used to work with Owen.

I'd fly down to Houston.

It's never too late.

No, never too late.

You have the buzz.

Yeah.

If you enjoy it and if you enjoy that's.

And that's the biggest thing the tour has to be fun for you.

That's the number one thing.

And you have to have the mindset to do the traveling.

Really, it's mental.

I'll even do a few tournaments a year where I'm filming, getting practice sessions do a couple of days I'm like, I'm out.

Yeah, because you're on side all day.

It's a long day.

It's not.

You go practice for an hour, you go home with your team, you're on site all day and you're like, oh, two days, I'm done.

Even the Aussie Open this year is the same.

Like yeah, I think five, six days film in there.

I just feeling you're done.

We're out of there as soon as we lose.

Like so we don't stay on site as players and coaches.

We do our practice and we're off site.

We're not sitting there, we're not watching, having the fight.

No, no, no, no, no.

There's no once we lose.

Yeah.

Don't want to talk to you.

But Joe, thanks a lot.

Great.

Good to see you again.

Yeah, see you.

Good to see you.

Thanks for having me on your show again.

Appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Yeah.

It.