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How Does Design Assist Presenting and Speaking? Interview with Von Glitschka
Episode 22 • 13th December 2022 • Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking • Kirsten Rourke
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In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten talks with Von Glitschka of Glitschka Studios about design, the importance of visuals in communication, and how good design is like good writing – you need to know what to edit out.

Key take-aways:

  • Three days after a presentation, audiences retain 65% of your message if you use images, vs. 10% without images 
  • If you captivate your audience visually, that engagement fosters more insightful questions
  • Continuity and consistency are key when using stock photos or clip art

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Transcripts

Kirsten:

Hello, everyone.

Kirsten:

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, the

Kirsten:

podcast and the conversation.

Kirsten:

And today, we are having an interview with Von Glitschka, who is an artist

Kirsten:

and someone that I have been talking with on Twitter for, I think, 150 years.

Kirsten:

And we've had conversations before, I think.

Kirsten:

I, possibly, Von, I'm not sure, I think I had you on my last

Kirsten:

podcast, like 10 years ago.

Kirsten:

So,

Von:

Yeah, there is some with you and another person, I can't remember his name.

Kirsten:

Yeah, me and Rick.

Kirsten:

Okay, awesome.

Kirsten:

So, what I wanna do is ask you to just introduce yourself to the audience,

Kirsten:

because you've got a really deep bench of history and there's a lot you could say.

Kirsten:

What would you like people to know about you?

Von:

In a nutshell, it's just, we're just a two person, I'd

Von:

consider us a boutique design firm.

Von:

It's just me and my daughter.

Von:

She's new to our situation.

Von:

I hired her about five years ago.

Von:

But most of the work we do is brand-centric, but our niche

Von:

is kind of illustrative design.

Von:

So, if you think of the Target logo, that's graphic design.

Von:

You think of Starbucks logo, that's more illustrative design.

Von:

So, that tends to be a lot of what we do, is brand-centric work, but with

Von:

a twist that provides exploration.

Kirsten:

Nice.

Kirsten:

And I noticed that you do more educating about what logos

Kirsten:

are than most, most people.

Kirsten:

Like, you actually take the time to talk with people about the fact

Kirsten:

that logos aren't just some random combination of shapes and colors.

Von:

Yeah.

Von:

Years back, in 2012, I wrote a book on just the creative

Von:

process, creating vector artwork.

Von:

It wasn't really a book on Illustrator.

Von:

It was more about the whole holistic approach to creating design, whether it's

Von:

a logo, whether it's an illustration.

Von:

And from that, I was invited to develop content for linda.com, at

Von:

the time, it's now LinkedIn Learning.

Von:

And so in that context, I create courses based off of everything from logo

Von:

design to, I did a course on copyright for creatives, and now I'm starting to

Von:

get into my YouTube channel because my friend, Chris Do, encouraged me to do

Von:

that, and kind of bringing my content there for people who don't wanna pay a

Von:

subscription through LinkedIn Learning.

Kirsten:

Great.

Kirsten:

And I noticed, yeah, that I think I saw one of your courses, and you were

Kirsten:

kind of going into a little bit of the history, and how you should think about,

Kirsten:

I think it was Illustrator, but thinking about how the pen tool actually thinks.

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Ok

Von:

And I, I'm a big believer in, when it comes to working on design,

Von:

the, the more you can think in shapes, the easier it is to solve things.

Von:

And, you, people, I think every designer, whether you ever wanna be

Von:

an illustrator or not, should draw.

Von:

It's a great way to improve your cognition skills, to problem solve,

Von:

but you can look at something complex.

Von:

This is why artists throughout history have used reference, and it doesn't matter

Von:

if they're drawing something realistic or they're simplifying it into an iconic

Von:

form, and being able to recognize shapes, and, and take a complex shape and kind

Von:

of deduce it down into a simplified form.

Von:

So that's, I, I go over that quite a bit, probably in a little more detail than

Von:

I should, but people seem to enjoy it.

Kirsten:

No, I think it's great because I, like I said, you do more actually

Kirsten:

educating people than most artists of your caliber, and it's, I really appreciate

Kirsten:

it, because I get very frustrated by the, "Oh, my nephew could do that."

Kirsten:

And it's like, "No,"

Von:

Kirsten:

"No, your nephew really couldn't."

Kirsten:

Von:

We,

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

Before I came over here, right before I started this with you

Von:

today, we recorded a red flag episode on our podcast, and that was one

Von:

of the very issues that came up.

Von:

So, very common.

Kirsten:

Excellent.

Kirsten:

And please, tell people the name of your podcast.

Von:

It's called The Creative Shit Show.

Von:

Kirsten:

I love it.

Kirsten:

So those of you that are subscribed to this should really be subscribed to that.

Kirsten:

All right, so, our podcast is Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, and I

Kirsten:

wanted to have you come on here because of the graphical nature of presenting.

Kirsten:

And I like your thoughts on when people are doing public speaking and

Kirsten:

they're doing presentations, a lot of times, they kind of don't realize the

Kirsten:

impact of the visuals in communication.

Kirsten:

Can you talk about how that's a part of the message, and it's

Kirsten:

actually a part of the process?

Von:

Yeah, I, I think, it was years ago, and I, unfortunately,

Von:

I can't remember the lady's name.

Von:

I think her first name was Sunni.

Von:

So, you might Google a TEDx with somebody by the name of Sunni

Von:

and you'll probably find it.

Von:

But she was talking about this very issue, and she brought up a study that

Von:

was based around something called the, I'm gonna butcher this name, I don't

Von:

know why I get tripped up for this name, the Picture Superiority Effect.

Von:

And, in a nutshell, it's, if you're in front of an audience and you're

Von:

a gifted orator and you're speaking, and it could be great information,

Von:

but three days later, when people are recalling that information,

Von:

only about 10% is gonna be retained.

Von:

It doesn't matter how

Kirsten:

Yep

Von:

Good you are at explaining, or telling a story or, or, as

Von:

they say, the, you know, stringing out the, what is it, yarn, or

Von:

whatever they call that slang term.

Von:

If you use pictures with the exact same message, after three days, more

Von:

people are gonna be, be able to retain upward to 65% of the content you shared.

Von:

So, it's, it's a dramatic increase in retention, in terms of, you could

Von:

have great information, but if you're just droning on and speaking, and

Von:

if you're not a very gifted speaker, it'll probably be even less than 10%

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

If you don't have visuals.

Von:

You add visuals in it, and it, it goes up.

Von:

And as soon as I heard that, I just started, I, I remember I had to,

Von:

I was invited to speak somewhere, and it was about a week out, and

Von:

I knew I only had the weekend to work on whatever I was going to do.

Von:

And I knew Apple had just come out with their Keynote, and I'd never used it.

Von:

Thankfully, I was able to learn it in about five hours,

Von:

and it was pretty intuitive.

Von:

But, I set up a file in Illustrator that's 1920 x 1080, and I created all

Von:

my graphics, and you, and the nice thing about Keynote is I can just copy and

Von:

paste right into Keynote, and it pastes, it's a SVG image and it's scalable.

Von:

It looks great.

Von:

It makes it so much easier to create graphics.

Von:

And so, I've kind of gone nuts.

Von:

When I give a talk, you might have, I don't know, maybe 45 slides.

Von:

You know, I remember a friend of mine said, "Hey, I'm giving a talk.

Von:

I'm kind of worried I have too many images."

Von:

And I said, "How many do you have?"

Von:

But it was like, he said, "45, 48, something like that."

Von:

I, I started laughing.

Von:

I go, I go, "I have 130."

Von:

Kirsten:

Von:

And he's going, "You have a hundred?

Von:

How are you gonna get through that?"

Von:

And I go, "Because it's not like every slide is, like,

Von:

text that they have to read."

Von:

I'll, I'll set things up and as I'm talking, because I practice it, and

Von:

usually as I'm putting it together, I'm, I'm kind of saying stuff as I'm doing it

Von:

to figure out how am I gonna present this.

Von:

And I'll just start clicking when I know it creates a transition.

Von:

I'll do stuff specifically set, set up, like, visual jokes almost, where I'll

Von:

be telling a story, but I reinforce it with these images because the other thing

Von:

after going to one, it wasn't called masterclass, it was, like, I was invited

Von:

to, like, a group that gets together and they talk about public speaking.

Von:

I forget what they call it.

Kirsten:

Mmmm, okay

Von:

It's all across the country.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

And they were talking about using humor, and I, and I always know, the ads

Von:

I remember the most that are the ones that make me laugh because they're good.

Von:

So, if you can captivate an audience visually, I don't care if they look

Von:

at me, they're going to hear me.

Von:

I want 'em looking at what's on the screen.

Von:

And, I don't know, ever since I started doing that, it, it's worked

Von:

out really well in terms of people engaging with what you're talking about.

Von:

And that usually fosters a lot of really insightful questions that at

Von:

times kind of stump me, because I hadn't even thought of it that way.

Von:

Like I, I, one time I, I speaking, I was, I was talking

Von:

about the importance of drawing.

Von:

It was at a South by Southwest.

Von:

They asked me to do something on drawing.

Von:

They saw a talk I did.

Von:

And so I was there, and I did it, and a lady came up to me and she said,

Von:

"Okay, you're talking about how drawing engages all, all four of the modalities.

Von:

And that's why it's a supercharger for creating."

Von:

I said, "Yeah."

Von:

She goes, "Well, you mentioned tactile, right?"

Von:

Or she, "You mentioned auditory.

Von:

How?

Von:

How does it do that?"

Von:

And I said, "That's a good question.

Von:

I think it's just the sound of, like, a pencil on paper.

Von:

But if you're using an iPad, it's gonna be a different sound.

Von:

You're gonna be tapping and you'll, I don't know," I, I wasn't sure what to say.

Von:

I go, "I don't know.

Von:

I just know the scientific study said that.

Von:

So I was just"

Kirsten:

Yep

Von:

"I was just sharing that."

Von:

But, yeah, it, it's, I, I know a talk's going well when I could tell

Von:

they're not really looking at me.

Von:

They're just taking in all the visuals.

Von:

They're listening to me, obviously, but I always try to work in some

Von:

visual jokes in some way where I transition something, you know?

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Von:

I don't know.

Von:

Just to get people to laugh.

Von:

I want 'em to enjoy it, not just be so serious.

Von:

You can have fun.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

And, and for those of you who are doing this on Apple or Spotify or

Kirsten:

whatever, go to YouTube and see the look on my face while he's talking,

Kirsten:

because this is exactly what I wanted.

Kirsten:

Thank you.

Kirsten:

Thank you.

Kirsten:

Thank you.

Kirsten:

Thank you.

Kirsten:

This is perfect.

Kirsten:

Yes, because I am trying to get across with folks who are new to

Kirsten:

public speaking that they need to think of it holistically.

Kirsten:

And the

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Performance includes, if you're doing, you don't have to do

Kirsten:

a deck, but if you're doing a deck, reading a PowerPoint deck at people is

Kirsten:

just, it's the worst thing you can do.

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Especially if it's just text.

Kirsten:

It's like, well, why not email it to them?

Von:

I,

Kirsten:

Why are you there?

Von:

It was interesting.

Von:

I remember I was flying somewhere and I got, my flight got delayed and they

Von:

gave me a credit for a flight somewhere.

Von:

And I, it was coming to an end where it was gonna, I hadn't used it.

Von:

And so, a friend of mine was speaking at this really, like, I don't even

Von:

remember the name of the conference.

Von:

I just know it was held in Branson, at a hotel, and it was really kind

Von:

of obscure, kind of topic matters.

Von:

And he said, "Hey, you should come down for the weekend."

Von:

I go, "Well, I got a ticket.

Von:

I'll just fly down.

Von:

What the heck?"

Von:

So, I went to this conference, and I went to his talk and it was about, he was

Von:

talking about, like, history and stuff.

Von:

His PowerPoint, he had like about 40 bullet points.

Von:

It filled the whole screen with type.

Von:

And I'm just going, "No, no, no, no, no,

Kirsten:

No, no

Von:

"You can't, nobody's gonna read all that.

Von:

Let alone, you're not gonna be able to go through it."

Von:

And I'm just, some people, their problem isn't their information.

Von:

They have good information, but just like writing, it comes down to knowing

Von:

what to edit out and just, just focus on the key points you're trying to make.

Von:

And you know, what, what's the quote by Shakespeare that,

Von:

oh, now I'm, now I'm not gonna

Kirsten:

Von:

remember it.

Von:

"Brevity is the soul of wit," I think is how it goes.

Kirsten:

I think so.

Von:

And, and I don't think, I think a lot of people struggle

Von:

with the brevity aspect.

Von:

It's, like, distill it down, you know.

Von:

You don't throw everything at 'em.

Von:

Even though it's, it might be good information when it's all really studied,

Von:

but it's not the format for that.

Von:

So,

Kirsten:

People can't take volume.

Von:

Do, do a three volume book series, if you wanna do that.

Kirsten:

So, when somebody is, has, they're, they're getting the, please do

Kirsten:

not put a million bullet points on there.

Kirsten:

Please don't put the same exact text on your slide that

Kirsten:

you're just reading at people.

Kirsten:

What's the point of you being there?

Kirsten:

If they wanna do visuals

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Especially visuals that replace words and are just conceptually

Kirsten:

supporting what you're saying, how do people who really don't have graphical

Kirsten:

design skills or an art background or anything, what do you recommend for

Kirsten:

them for starting to put imagery on?

Kirsten:

What guidelines do you think they should follow?

Kirsten:

Just as, as they're getting into this world?

Von:

Whatever you're talking about, whatever point you're making, try

Von:

to think about it and deduce it down into a theme or a keyword.

Von:

What would represent what you're trying to communicate?

Von:

Maybe it's, you're trying to make a historical connection or whatever, so

Von:

you could, there's a lot of, actually, now, there's a lot of pretty good, free,

Von:

kind of public stock sites where it doesn't cost money to download stuff.

Von:

Pixabay is one a client of mine uses.

Kirsten:

Hmm

Von:

I've used it a few times, but even if it's in a talk, if you're not selling

Von:

your talk or, or making money off of it, it's just you're presenting an idea

Von:

to somebody, I've been known to go to Google Images and use advanced search

Von:

features and look for four pixel images, so I could get a background of a, I

Von:

don't know, a shot of, I don't know, let's say a body of water or whatever

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

Von:

That I want type to sit on top of.

Von:

So, just think about what you would find interesting, and if it interests

Von:

you, then it's probably gonna interest whoever's watching your talk, so.

Kirsten:

Okay, so then, let's just branch into credit for a second, because

Kirsten:

if going into Google, they look at Creative Commons, you can search the

Kirsten:

Creative Commons database and so on.

Kirsten:

But

Von:

Yeah, that's a good one.

Kirsten:

Let's say they're pulling stuff they have rights to, and obviously you

Kirsten:

shouldn't take anybody's work, you know.

Kirsten:

I know you've struggled with that, where people have taken your work and used

Kirsten:

it somewhere or actually make money off of it, without talking to you about it.

Kirsten:

I've seen that happen in the past.

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

So, what I do, is I actually put a slide at the end that has the

Kirsten:

links and the names of everybody, but is there, and there might not be, is

Kirsten:

there a creative way to work in credit?

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

I mean, any ideas?

Von:

I've done, I even for my LinkedIn courses, I wanted to show an image, I

Von:

did a course last year called Creating Illustrative Design, how to approach

Von:

a logo much like Starbucks and pull it off if you're not an illustrator.

Von:

And, there was an animator from Disney who now runs his studio in Colorado, I think.

Von:

And, I saw a photograph of him working on a sketch, but, on the

Von:

screen next to him, he has Google images opened up and he's referencing

Von:

images as he's drawing a character.

Von:

That's fine.

Von:

I mean, artists going all the way back to, well, Middle Ages and further,

Von:

you know, used reference, whether it's a live model or, like, I think it's

Von:

Norman Rockwell is the first one to photography to capture his models and

Von:

pose 'em, and then he drew from 'em.

Von:

So, that's perfectly fine.

Von:

So, I approached him, and I said, "Hey, do you have a good shot of

Von:

this image that was in this article?

Von:

And can I show it?"

Von:

And he said, "Sure."

Von:

So he sent me the image and I just, on the screen, just put credit to,

Von:

to him because it was his photograph.

Kirsten:

Cool

Von:

And so, anytime I'm doing stuff for LinkedIn, there was one

Von:

time, back in the 80s when I first started, we had used Xerox machines

Von:

as, like, almost like Photoshop and

Kirsten:

Yep

Von:

To get what we called Xerography, which was a look and style, and I, I was,

Von:

kind of, reapproaching that, but doing it with Photoshop in one of my movies.

Von:

And, I found a photographer who had taken a picture of a giraffe.

Von:

And I just approached him, because I couldn't find any good stock photo

Von:

that fit what I was looking for.

Von:

And I said, "Hey, this is what I'm doing."

Von:

I explained it to him so he understood and I said, "Would you

Von:

mind if I used your photograph?

Von:

I'll give you credit.

Von:

I'll link to your website."

Von:

And that's all I did.

Von:

So, when I brought up the image in my movie, I had his URL on screen and giving

Von:

him credit, and he was fine with that.

Von:

So

Kirsten:

Cool

Von:

I think most people, if you go outta your way to, to ask them and do

Von:

a good job of explaining, you know, I told him, I go, "I'm not going to

Von:

allow your source photograph to be downloaded or anything like that.

Von:

This is just appearing on screen."

Von:

So, they're usually okay with it most of the time.

Kirsten:

Excellent, excellent.

Kirsten:

So, when it comes to vector art and styles, I noticed that people coming

Kirsten:

to making presentations who do not have a background, really don't recognize

Kirsten:

that mixing styles doesn't always work.

Kirsten:

And that, what I usually used to do is, I would teach people to go in and look

Kirsten:

by artist, and then pull things from the same artist, so that you at least kept

Kirsten:

within the same family of, of design.

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

But, what are your thoughts on that?

Kirsten:

Because I find that it seems, like, especially when people are

Kirsten:

just throwing random clip, clip art up there, sometimes it's

Von:

Yeah, yeah

Kirsten:

Like something nice, something nice, and something

Kirsten:

like, "Oh dear God, what is that?"

Von:

It's like going to a local restaurant and they have a, a menu

Von:

they threw together, and they have clip art, and from one looking like woodcut,

Von:

to another one looking like it was from Microsoft Explosion or whatever.

Von:

Yeah, I, I agree, continuity is key.

Von:

As soon, and that's, if you think of it in the context of a brand, the way brands

Von:

get fragmented is nobody's managing their brand, so they're allowing things

Von:

to happen graphically that degrade the overall continuity of communication.

Von:

And it, it usually happens slowly, and it can, and unless it's checked, you know,

Von:

that's why brand managers are there.

Von:

They're supposed to say, "No.

Von:

This memo you sent out, you're not following our brand guidelines."

Von:

So, you don't have to be that kind of hard ass,

Kirsten:

Hard ass

Von:

I guess, yeah, if you're doing it yourself, but just keep in mind that

Von:

the more consistent things are, people won't get hung up on, on it visually.

Von:

There's a reason why, there's good design and bad design, and one of the

Von:

things that adds up to resulting in bad design is when there's fragmentation.

Von:

And that could be in style, like you're talking about, that could

Von:

be in quality, in terms of the craftsmanship of the artwork or

Von:

design created, bad type, you know.

Von:

Not,

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

Bad kerning, bad fonts, or having too many fonts.

Von:

Just stick with a, pick a good font family that has bold, medium, light,

Von:

italic, and don't mix, like, six different fonts into your presentation.

Von:

The more you can keep in check all those things, the better

Von:

something's gonna communicate.

Kirsten:

I love the fact that you're focusing on, that it's going to

Kirsten:

communicate better, because that's the underlying message that I think gets lost,

Kirsten:

is that it's not just, "We're following these rules because the rules are right."

Kirsten:

Yes, they are.

Kirsten:

But there's an underlying driver of that, which is, what are you trying

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

To do with your visual?

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

What

Von:

You, you want to, you, you remember, like when I grew up, anytime in a

Von:

movie somebody was kidnapped, there was always that ransom note, and it was

Von:

cut pieces of letters from different publications to make the message.

Von:

It's like, that, that's a good example of what you don't wanna do.

Von:

You wanna, you know?

Von:

No, no, nobody kidnapped today, you know, they might just print out something

Von:

from a computer, but even that has better look than the, I don't know

Von:

what I'm saying, it just made me think

Kirsten:

Oh yeah

Von:

Of the kidnap note.

Kirsten:

Oh no, if you got, yeah, if you got a kidnap note now and it looked like

Kirsten:

that, I think you'd be like, "Really?

Kirsten:

Do I take them seriously?"

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

"Because this looks ridiculous."

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Yeah, the mix and match, I, the all fonts thing always makes me think

Kirsten:

of the really, really low grade used car ads, like, the ones in the papers

Kirsten:

that were just, different parts were screaming at you in different colors

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And different fonts, and after a while you're like,

Von:

I, I'm still surprised, do you, do you remember a brand called Garanimals?

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

Where, like, you could take your kid shopping and say, these, these shorts are

Von:

gorilla shorts, and they go with gorilla shirts, and they go with gorilla socks.

Von:

And that's how they did pairings, so kids could figure out what goes together.

Von:

You know, I always thought, it, it's a little surprising that Adobe hasn't

Von:

come up with something that, like, stylistically matches fonts with

Von:

certain industries, or, or certain aesthetics, or something like that.

Kirsten:

Garanimals for fonts, I like that.

Von:

Yeah, yeah

Kirsten:

Yeah, I know they keep explaining, like, these might belong

Kirsten:

together, but it's hard to understand why,

Von:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Because the voice that fonts are, not everybody hears

Kirsten:

the voice in the same way.

Von:

Yeah, that's true.

Von:

I mean, there's the whole blanding norm going on now.

Von:

We're taking a, a nice branding and just going sans with it, and kind of

Von:

neutering it of any unique aesthetic.

Von:

I'm not a fan of it, but

Kirsten:

Yep

Von:

Although, I do like sans.

Von:

I always tend to gravitate towards that more than serif, so.

Kirsten:

So, what do you think the trend will be when people swing away from that?

Kirsten:

Because there's gonna be a reaction to it at some point.

Von:

Yeah, I, I think it's kind of like Apple, when they got really heavy handed

Von:

into skeuomorphic icons, where it looked and felt like a real device type thing.

Von:

I don't know if you remember the old podcast one, where it was, like, a

Von:

reel-to-real deck type stupid thing.

Kirsten:

I don't remember, that, but I'll look it up.

Von:

And they, they, they got away from that, and they just went to

Von:

flat and iconic, and that's pretty much where they're still at.

Von:

They even got rid of the Steve Jobs, "It's so glossy, you can

Von:

lick it," comment, or whatever.

Von:

It's just all flat design.

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

And I, I'm all for simple.

Von:

The older I get, I want things simple.

Von:

I don't, that's the part I have to fight with, because there's times when I'm

Von:

working on something, I wanna keep putting a little more detail in it, and I have to

Von:

force myself to say, "No, this is fine."

Kirsten:

So you have to make yourself stop.

Von:

Yeah, yeah

Kirsten:

Yeah

Von:

I, I think anybody can go too far, so, yeah.

Kirsten:

So, what, if someone wanted to know more about your

Kirsten:

work, and your book, and things like that, where would they find you?

Von:

Just go to GlitschkaStudios.com, and if you have a hard time knowing how

Von:

to spell that, just go to vonster.com, so just like "monster," but with a "V,"

Von:

and it'll forward you to that site.

Kirsten:

Nice.

Kirsten:

And, and how many times did you have people misspelling "Glitschka" before

Kirsten:

you basically did a monster redirect?

Kirsten:

Von:

A lot

Kirsten:

A lot

Von:

Usually when I type it out or write it out, there's "L" and then there's "I"

Von:

and I always get 'em too close, and so I get packages that show up and it says

Von:

"Gutschka," you know, on it, because they think it's a letter "U," so, um, yeah.

Von:

It just, it sounds hard to say, but it really isn't.

Von:

But spelling it, it has way too many consonants, so, yeah.

Kirsten:

Okay, so vonster redirects, right?, to Glitschka,

Von:

Yep

Kirsten:

And that is where people can find all of your stuff.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

Do you have any events coming up?

Kirsten:

Do you have anything you're promoting?

Kirsten:

Anything you're doing you want people to know about?

Von:

Actually, right now, no, nothing for the, the new year, so, that usually

Von:

starts happening around January, yeah.

Kirsten:

Okay, all right.

Kirsten:

Well, we will definitely, as that happens, I will find out from you,

Kirsten:

and then I'll start pushing it out on, on our socials, because love sharing

Kirsten:

the wealth and making sure all of our friends get the same attention.

Kirsten:

So thank you for your time.

Kirsten:

I really, really appreciate it.

Kirsten:

For those who are watching or hearing this, if you want to have conversations

Kirsten:

about this, there is a LinkedIn group called Ongoing Mastery: Presenting

Kirsten:

& Speaking, and that is the place, come and just make comments, you know, talk to us.

Kirsten:

We are also, this is going to be up on YouTube.

Kirsten:

This is going to be on all of whatever the podcast.

Kirsten:

We've pushed it to everything.

Kirsten:

I think it's available on billboards, somewhere.

Kirsten:

So, thank you all for listening, and we will catch you next week.

Kirsten:

Have a good day.

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