Episode Summary: In this relatable and insightful conversation, British Elite Runner and sustainable running community leader, Tina Muir, engages with CarbonSessions hosts and runners, Rob, Jeremy, and Leekei, discussing a wide range of topics around sustainability and running.

Topics discussed include:

• The unique perspective of runners on sustainability and the intersection of running, sustainability, and community
• Working collaboratively with the Chicago Marathon organization to foster sustainable practices
• Strategies to encourage runners to switch from environment-damaging habits to more sustainable ones
• How to cope with climate-related anxiety through constructive conversation and action
• The advantages of carpooling, both for training and travel to events
• Tina's personal epiphany and her 100-day sustainability challenge
• The importance of embracing imperfect starts to foster change
• What gives Tina hope and the partners she collaborates with
• The necessity of questioning and challenging brands and companies runners support to ensure sustainability

About Tina Muir

From St. Albans, England, Tina Muir, a former professional runner, now leads her own running business, Running for Real, in St. Louis, Missouri. Her award-winning podcast, featuring conversations on running, climate, and social justice, has over six million downloads. Notables like Malcolm Gladwell and Rich Roll have been guests. She also co-hosts Running Realized, hailed as "The 'Invisibilia' of running" by Women's Running.

Tina’s written work has appeared in notable outlets like The Guardian, and she has self-published book. In 2021, she partnered with the United Nations and became a lead climate activist in the running community. Recognized as one of 17 women revolutionizing running by Women's Running, she's inspired many to voice their passions.

Connect with Tina: https://tinamuir.com/

Get Tina’s new book: https://becomingasustainablerunner.com/

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For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Rob Slater and Jeremy Côté.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

Rob is from Birmingham in the UK, he is an orthodontist, triathlete, coach and podcaster.

Jeremy is a scientist, an athlete, a coach, and a writer from Québec, Canada.

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Since you’ve come this far, please show your Aloha

Hawaii has suffered a great tragedy. The deadliest wildfires in the last century. 

Maui-based Carbon Almanac Contributor Richie Biluan wrote “You are important. Your voice is important. Your aloha is significant. If you are on social media, send someone an encouraging comment who you see is going through this tragedy, or any for that matter. Share critical information with your network. Write. Read. And most importantly - love one another.”

Visit Richie IG to find out how you can help

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

I'm from Prague.

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Ola Bji, and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hi, I'm Brian and I'm from New York.

Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon conversations for every day with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

In our conversations, we share ideas.

Perspectives, questions and things we can actually do to make a difference.

So don't be shy and join our carbon sessions because it's not too late.

Hi, I'm Rob.

Hi everyone.

I'm Jeremy.

And hi, I'm leaky.

And today we have a very, very special Edison because,

uh, we're all runners, right?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Not hearing that so, and but will all very different.

Kinds of runners.

I'm probably the slowest runner in this room because, um, my personal

best friend marathon is five hour and which I'm very, very proud of, but it's

really very slow for a lot of people.

But yeah.

But, um, I think that Jeremy and Robert, different type of runner,

maybe you can share with your running history a little bit.

So, so yeah, I've been, I've been running for about a decade now.

I've, uh, participated in, uh, cross country when I was, uh, in both secondary

school and also later on in college.

And yeah, I just, uh, I just really love to run.

It's been kind of the sport that's, uh, taken over all of the

other sports that I like to do.

It's like this is the one thing that I really love to

get up and do every morning.

It's like one of my anchors for my day.

So that's basically how I view running for myself.

I, I started running, um, 40 years ago as a 19 year old, and, uh,

what happened was that a friend of mine said, shall we go running?

I did a few four mile runs and then decided four months

later to do a marathon.

And, uh, I did the marathon.

And then having completed that, I, my toe fell off, my toenail fell

off, run, not my toe, my toe now.

And, um, I went to a.

Myis said, you've got arthritis in your toes.

So I stopped running and was scared by it.

But following that, I did a lot of different endurance activities like,

uh, martial arts and, um, I, I'd come from a swing background and, uh, I

moved in opposite a triathlete and so started doing triathlon, uh, and

then started doing Iron Man triathlon.

And so because I'm slow, uh, and uh, endurance.

Seemed to be one of those things, a sort of mantra of my life, really.

So I still enjoy, uh, I enjoy that now and I, I coach triathlon as well,

so, but running is definitely my weakest discipline, that's for sure.

And I stepped into running because I was fed up of, um, of having

to find a part to play tennis.

And so today we have a very, very special guest for our episode.

And, uh, you might wonder why did we talk about running, um, on call sessions?

And so, um, I will, uh, headed to you, Jeremy to make a introduction

of a very special guest today.

Thanks, leaky.

So I said I started running about 10 years ago and about at the same time

as when I first learned of Tina and her work, it was about the same time I was,

uh, like in my mid-teens, I was learning about how to run and what it meant

to actually like, run with a purpose.

And I, I saw Tina's work on, um, one of the podcasts that

she was doing at the time.

Um, she, in a previous chapter of her life was a professional.

Runner.

So I was very motivated by like, okay, how can I get faster and, uh, and

do this as like, as best as I can.

After she, she left, uh, this, this particular podcast and

started doing other stuff.

I still followed, uh, your work, Tina, and from there, I've just seen over the

years, kind of how you've transitioned from being like a professional athlete

to an advocate for like women's health and health in general for everybody.

And also how to be more sustainable in terms of, uh, the,

the environment and how can we.

Bring this sort of mindset to running and sports in general.

So I'm very excited, uh, to have you today, uh, on the podcast.

Like this is my first time doing the podcast, and I wanted to, uh, have you

on because I knew you were like the perfect person to talk about the, uh,

uh, the intersection of these two topics.

So welcome to the podcast, Tina.

And, uh, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your running journey

as well as you, uh, as you grew up?

Yeah.

Thank you so much for the kind words, uh, Jeremy and, uh,

for, for having me on here.

I absolutely love what you all are doing here, and it's just such a

critical piece that is missing I feel in so much of the conversations.

Uh, making it realistic, making it accessible and relatable, and not making

people feel like they have to sail across the Atlantic in order to be any,

to have any kind of conversation about environmentalism or they have to have a.

Uh, PhD Environmental Science to ha to have any kind of say in this.

So I love what, what you all are doing here.

Um, But in answer to your question, yeah.

So I'm, I am, I'm British, but I live in the us Um, I came, ended

up being a pretty good, uh, teenage cross country runner in school.

I was offered a full ride scholarship out to come to the US for university, which

I then did and ended up staying, did my masters and, um, Met my husband, and,

uh, that was kind of the end of that.

I, we decided to stay here and, um, I continued running

professionally for a few years.

Um, although sustainability being, I wouldn't have called myself maybe

an activist at that point, but, uh, I, it, I'd always been very aware

of, um, environmental choices and, and been very conscious of it.

Uh, but over the years it, it became more and more.

In my mind.

And then once I had two kids, it really started to, to pick up to where I

couldn't ignore these as we know it now.

All of us here, like the climate anxiety that like dread or panic or anger or

frustration or whatever it might be that I felt, um, I, and I felt I had to use,

I had this platform, why not use it?

And again, do it very much like you do in an accessible way to where I could talk

about running, but I could also say that.

You know, I could talk about environmental things that people could

really relate to and try and plant those seeds in people, uh, get them

sucked in on my running and then be like, oh, here's a, here's a nugget.

Um, that could hopefully plant a seed that then they would be able

to take in the rest of their lives and, and pass on in their own lives.

, and so now, I'm not running at the level I used to, but, um, uh, so I would say

I, I do a lot of work with the major races, um, in the us like the New York

Marathon, the Chicago Marathon, , working with their sustainability teams.

And so while my running officially isn't set at this high level,

it was before, um, I'm still.

Finding ways to be involved in running, but finding ways to bring sustainability

to the forefront of conversations rather than it just being about what

runners eat for breakfast or what, uh, what workouts they do to get fast.

So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.

Okay.

Uh, well, I did a run, uh, It's lunchtime.

This is, um, about, uh, seven o'clock in my time.

But I was listening to one of the, , that, one of the podcast interview you gave

recently, um, maybe in March or something.

And you were saying that you did run the London Marathon, but as, um,

as a guide, uh, for blind people.

, um, social justice is one very, very big part of your running activism.

If I can put that that way.

Um, yeah, yeah.

Um, I was, uh, I'd like to go directly to the book that you, that will be

published in orchestra and the title of this book is called Becoming

a Sustainable Runner for Guide to Running for Life, community and Planet.

And, um, I totally understand the first two pillars of this book Running for

Life and Community because I, my running journey, well, actually, well, I say it as

a joke that started running, uh, because I was fan about for trying to find poems

for, to play tennis with, but I really got serious into running, um, a little

bit over 10 years ago when I decided to.

Signed up for my first marathon.

And um, actually as a result of that, it saved me and it saved my life because,

um, a little bit over than 10 years ago, um, I was running a small business

and, uh, I knew that it was, um, a very critical year was coming, um, for my

business and I have a lot of challenges to deal with and, um, and I wanted to.

Run a marathon for a very special reason.

Um, it didn't really make a lot of sense because, so running a marathon

requires a lot of time, especially if you've never run a marathon and

you are first low runner like me, a lot effort, a lot of involvement.

But for me it was a way to deal with my anxiety and uh, to keep my mind busy.

So it was a way for me to be focused on something and, uh, to find something very.

Um, I shouldn't say easy, but a simple thing to do, like, you know, step by

step process and, uh, you do things and you make progress and you celebrate

it and you have a very clear goal.

And, um, with, you know, when you run the business, yeah, you have,

you don't have step by step business.

You experiment a lot of things and it's, it's a, you know, what to

expect, whereas, you know, Running, uh, gives you like this kind of, um,

you, you know what to expect when you do the work, you know what to expect.

So that was really great because it's, uh, kept my mind occupied and helped me deal,

um, deal with wanted things to go faster.

\ , and, um, yeah, it was a great experience.

And, uh, the other part of it is that, you know, running, um, say running a business

is, uh, can be quite solitary at times.

And, um, I found this amazing community 'cause I joined a running group and that

was just absolutely something that like, you know, uh, the cherry and book, like,

you know, I discovered this community of people that want you to make progress

to separate with you and benevolent and.

I have a lot of empathy and I wasn't expecting that.

So it will also help me, uh, deal with my, you know, my, um, loneliness

of being, um, um, business owner has to struggle with level of things.

A lot of challenges.

So that was the, the two like you are running for life and community.

This is something that I totally, um, Agree with, and I can't wait to read

your book, but, um, I would like to go to the third part, the last part

of the title, which is the Planet.

And, um, and so I would like to ask you what the unique perspectives that,

um, outdoor athletes or runner have about climate that others may not have?

Yeah.

Um, thank you for that.

Uh, well, I, first, I wanna just say that like, I think for me, I believe that

one of the biggest ways, one of the best ways that we are gonna figure out this.

Tricky situation we've got ourselves in, in terms of

climate change, global warming.

It, the only way we're gonna figure this out is working together as

a humanity, as as a community, as just a world, a planet together.

And so I really love that we were able to break it down, like, here's

what you can do as an individual.

If you love to run, here's what you can do as a community to work

together within your local community.

But we also need to act as a humanity as one.

Um, and that's the planet side of things.

And so, I really believe that us working within community,

whether that means online, like.

Jeremy and I, you know, having a, having a friendship through email or,

um, whether that means, uh, you know, having people within, within your area

like you found with a running club.

Um, but for the, the planet side of things, it, it really is.

I mean, we break down a lot of the, the things that contribute.

We, we do talk about within running, there's obviously

races that a lot of people do.

How can we make more sustainable races?

We talk about activism in terms of environmental justice, climate justice.

We really put a lot of the facts out there that make it clear that,

you know, I'm sure each of you has heard, running is easy because

all you need is a pair of shoes.

Well, not necessarily.

Um, if you live in one of the sacrifice zones, you can't just head out your

door and uh, and go out for a run.

Um, or if you are in an area that doesn't have access to safe sidewalks

or places to walk or parks or anything, then you can't just go out for a run.

So we really spoke to the pieces, um, that are.

Climate related, but maybe more, more complex than people might think.

We spoke about the apparel industry, which I mean you all know is a 10% at least

of um, global emissions, but is often.

Not mentioned.

Um, and so we talk about the apparel industry because

again, runners need apparel.

But beyond that, runners are people who also buy clothes for pleasure.

So how can we think about cutting down?

We talk about, we take reduced reuse, recycle, we break that

down and kind of discuss why.

Recycle seems to be the only word that actually stuck in that, in that phrase.

Um, and people use that as their measure of, well, I'm, I care about

the planet I recycle and explaining.

Yeah, it doesn't really cut it anymore.

Um, and so yeah, we really felt it was important to focus on this

planetary side of things because.

We are all in this together and running itself, uh, as you

mentioned, like it's a practice, it's something that you do day after day.

And this is the same with with the climate.

We all have, we all get to make decisions every day.

You get to look at your yogurt pot and think, okay, um, I like

some people, it might be as simple as I'm gonna throw this.

Just straight in the trash, or I'm gonna at least try and wash it out.

Or it might be, you know, I'm gonna go to a family event and I'm gonna

take my own vegetarian sausages and explain that I'm trying to eat meatless

once a week, or whatever it might be.

So we've, we tried to make this very digestible so that people

could really see the impact that.

But also as you mentioned about runners, specifically,

runners are outside seeing it.

And today here where I live in St.

Louis, the wildfire smoke is from Canada, is pretty bad.

And so we.

I'm well aware when I go out for my run that I'm inhaling

some version of, of smoke.

And so it is gonna, there's no running away from this.

Um, and so runners are out there, there's, we're seeing the changes,

we're experiencing the changes.

Um, and so I feel like runners are a who, people that get stuff done, but

they're also gonna be the group that sees visibly what is going on and are

motivated to, to make change happen.

You just during this conversation that I've actually just, just,

just, something's come to my mind that, um, there are sort

of two aspects to my running.

One was as a young runner and the other as an old runner, the young runner

went out on his own, did a local event.

The marathon was just five miles away from where I lived, and I

did all my training on my own.

And then as an old runner starting off at around the age of 40, I.

Joined a club and there was that sense of community.

We met up, we meet up on Saturday mornings in the park at Cannon Hill Park

and uh, we even did the Carbon Almanac World record book signing down there.

So all of our club came together and signed the book and we went

for a coffee and it was so cool.

It's great.

And I, and I suppose that's also made me think about one of the questions

I was going to ask you in relation to your work with sustainability

for the big organizations.

Because working with a very big triathlon club, uh, we have, um,

it's a running and triathlon club.

Uh, we have a lot of, um, people who go off all over the place to big events.

And I feel, because I've done a lot of these big events myself, I often feel

a bit ambivalent because one, it's given me that real feeling of seeing

the world from three different aspects.

One in a Lake River, sea.

Another, seeing the countryside away from the city on a bike ride.

And then there's the run meeting people while I'm on the run, if I'm having a bad

day, having a chat with the, uh, crowds.

And, and so I, I, that's one of the things I really love about it.

Um, but there's that slight clash with the fact that I.

A lot of events don't have any, um, uh, facility for cycles to

go or be, you know, wrapped away.

It's all about cars very often in, in the big events.

And so I, I just feel sort of ambivalent about these things.

Should I just go back to my local running or should I be supporting the very people

that can do the most for sustainability?

It's these big organizations.

So I'm really interested in what your work is with the big companies, um,

because that obviously will filter down to all of these other places.

I.

Absolutely.

Um, and, and to that regard, I, um, I just was recently attending a race.

I attended a race management program summit, um, put on by, uh, the people

who put the Chicago Marathon on.

And I got, they, they had me talk about sustainability, which was a

great commitment in itself because I had the room for an hour and 10

minutes to talk about sustainability.

Um, but it really has been amazing seeing Chicago, particularly New York.

Too, but Chicago's very vocal about it.

They also are very, um, progressive with their, uh, pregnancy deferral

policies with, um, their, you know, inclusion pol policies.

So, uh, but you really get to see at first a lot of, uh, the smaller

organizations will say, yeah, but you are the Chicago Marathon.

You have all these resources.

But then you see the trickle down of, okay, well actually.

I may not be the Chicago Marathon that, by the way, Chicago I think

has 30,000 or 40,000 runners each year, uh, do the marathon.

So it's a huge event.

Um, but they also, these little races start to recognize

that they can do things that.

Don't need 15 signatures to go through.

Um, and they can just make changes themselves.

Um, and so it really does trickle down.

Um, and that is a lot of why I've been brought into work with these major races

is because we need to, as you all know, a lot of what we have to do is just.

Breaking the habits of people that are just long ingrained.

And so here in the US um, people don't think about composting.

So, um, they will throw a banana, peel straight into the recycling,

just assuming it's a all in one.

And me being there, or the volunteers being there, or the sustainability

team being there and saying, hold up.

Wait, we have a compost bin over here.

Like that's stopping that.

Automatic behavior.

And so a lot of what the major races are doing is setting the standard

that this is the new normal with, with zero waste stations or, um,

with having their, you know, now testing out the use of, uh, reusable.

Cups, uh, a cup service that, so rather than drinking, uh, individual

cups in, which by the way, Chicago, I think uses one and a half million cups

during the race because of the runners.

So if you can replace those with reusable cups that could be washed

and taken to all these other races.

If Chicago can do that with their giant race, then surely

a local race can do that.

Um, and so it really has been good to see, and also good that these races

are being leaders for other events to then copy and, and learn from.

Uh, they're giving it all away for free.

They have all their blueprints, they have the information.

Um, and so I've really loved watching that and being a part of it to draw

attention to the work that they're doing.

Yeah.

I suppose these large organizations, as you say, can act sort of like a symbol or.

Setting an example for, uh, the, the rest of the organizations to, to uh,

follow and then hopefully, you know, not just, it goes and permeates further than

just running events, but other events and just people's usual, usual everyday

lives and being able to have these sorts of sustainability aspects to them.

Sure.

I was, I wanted to ask you, Tina, in your work with these organizations,

I'm sure like the people.

Within the organizations themselves are very, uh, interested in having

this sort of transformation take place.

How, how have you found the reaction, like from just participants,

from other people going around?

Is it really just that they have, uh, like you break this habit

and they're like, okay, yeah.

Like I won't put it in this, uh, recycling bin.

I'll put the banana peel in the compost bin.

Or has it been, uh, more of a challenge?

I was super curious to, uh, to ask about this.

I have a very interesting answer for this one actually, and that is that

once you get people engaged, They are engaged, they're very interested,

but the lengths people will go to, to avoid the sustainability

people because of what people have.

This preconceived notion of what an activist is, an environmental person.

I mean, we all probably get it in our daily lives of where people see

you coming and they're like, oh, no.

Please don't talk to me about environmental stuff again.

Um, and so like I, I will see people literally looking up in the opposite

direction at the sky, like at nothing, just as they walk by so that they

don't have to engage with us 'cause they think we're gonna like, I don't

know, tell them off or something.

And, um, and so it's the same with the tents, the zero waste tents where we have

very clearly marked compost, recycling, trash, uh, TerraCycle for like the

bar wrappers or the gels or whatever.

People will go out of their way to go around the back of the tent, moving

things out the way to get to the bins that are just unmarked because

they don't want to come near me and the other people working there.

But we found that by making it a bit fun, doing like a spin the wheel or

um, Even just a basketball hoop where people could throw their a basketball

hoop above each of the cans so people could throw their banana peel into

the correct bin that got people there.

And then they were like, oh, actually these people aren't terrifying.

They aren't gonna tell me to never fly again.

And then from there they were able to actually learn and listen and not.

So I think a lot of it is so much we like the group of us here, and

probably anyone listening have such a.

Unneeded and uncalled for reputation of just like the

person to be avoided at all costs.

Because I think a lot of it comes down to, um, we all are made to feel

like we are horrible human beings.

Like, we're not doing enough.

We feel like nothing we can do is good enough.

We feel like.

You know, why, why am I still doing all these things when, again, as we all

know, it's the systems that are in place.

It's the, the way the world is built.

We live in the same world.

I'm sure you all, I get people who come up to me with a plastic bottle and they panic

and they're like, uh, uh, I, I, I, I, I got this yesterday and I, I, I've been

reusing it and, and I'm like, it's okay.

I live in the same world as you do.

Sometimes a plastic bottle is the only way to get water.

Um, and so I think people.

Are scared of us and that's what I'm really hoping I've been able to break

down and show people that it's okay.

We're all learning, we're all trying to go against the systems that have been

put in place, but also that if we do talk about it, talking about it as we're

doing here is the biggest thing any of us can do, um, to make change happen.

So, Uh, I dunno if that answered your question, Jeremy, but like,

I feel like they definitely are hesitant to do anything to do with

sustainability, but once they realize that I'm not gonna yell at them, then

they change their mind and relax.

Yeah, no, it to totally answers the question.

I suppose at some level, the, the long-term goal is that you will not

have to be the one kind of in place.

In these tents waiting for people.

Like people will just know that this is the thing to do.

Mm-hmm.

And then you focus on like other parts of, uh, yes.

Parts of these, uh, the, the race organization.

So, so yeah.

I think it's, it's probably like a longer term mm-hmm.

Uh, project of really like getting people, like you say, into the habit of switching

from something that they're just.

Default and it's probably, it's probably not even malicious.

It's just, you don't even think about it.

It's just this is just the default and it's like, just do this and you don't

think about it to, uh, doing something with maybe a bit more intention.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

And there's so many things that have been done for years, particularly in racing,

but within anything like a bip that people wear, like, I wanna transform the

way that what, what bibs are made of.

I have a dream of bibs being made of seed paper that you can then plant.

Like why couldn't they be?

You know, bibs have always been made out of this plastic material.

Um, but once we can get people thinking about some things, then maybe they'll

be curious and maybe they come up with a solution for something else.

So, so, yeah, very much so.

I hope so.

I think one of the problems that's happened is that the public, um,

me included, have kind of become conditioned because the way that

we view sustainability tends to be through journalism, and journalists

want to make things entertaining.

So they'll always, when they're interviewing somebody on sustainability,

they'll get somebody who's the polar opposite and bring those two together.

And whether their opinion is right or wrong, it just creates, um,

an an atmosphere straight away.

So when I was asked to give a talk on sustainability within my own profession, I

suddenly realized that I could be walking into the lion's den and, uh mm-hmm.

Became very nervous immediately.

So I did put a po a picture up on PowerPoint just of two people.

Um, and um, one was at one extreme and one was at the other.

And, and I said, look, most of us are somewhere in the middle, but we're

all kind of moving along this path.

Um, and hopefully most of us want to move.

In the right direction.

And I also pointed out that 80%, uh, there is a statistic that 80% of people actually

want to do something, uh, sustainably.

It's just that we all think it's only 20%.

So we, we feel that nervousness and, uh, and, and getting that across to people I'm

sure must have been a challenge for you.

And clearly it is, uh, with people trying to avoid you in those tents.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, those climate deniers are very loud, aren't they?

So, um, uh, you know, they're the ones that, yeah, like you said,

you, it's, it's funny though, and that's what I try and tell people

all the time, that when people.

Speak to friends and family about something that should seem so

obvious, like, I'm nervous for our future because you know, this is

happening and that's happening.

Like, that should be such a simple conversation to have with friends.

But they think the friends are gonna be like, oh, please

don't bring this up right now.

Like, I'm not.

But actually, if you, as we all know, like once you start talking about it or doing

something, the anxiety in you actually.

Much like what we were saying about running earlier, the

anxiety starts to go down 'cause you're actually doing something.

So as you said, 80% of people want to do something, they want to take

action, but they're scared that they're gonna be judged for it.

So that's why I always say talking about it, like just, that's the biggest thing.

Most of us can start with doing so, but it's still scary.

Well, I wondered about opportunity 'cause I often try to look for opportunities.

Um, a good, an example I suppose that I can think of is that in our

club, uh, we have a booking system.

And, um, as an admin on that, uh, if I'm going swimming because it's, uh,

in a late 10 miles away, I usually look at the list and if there's anybody that

I know who I can pick up on the way.

And we'll, we'll, um, hook up together.

And, uh, you know, and the last time I did it, the person who,

uh, came on the lift with me, she said, this was just so wonderful.

She said, I was stressed about driving over there.

Mm.

We've gone over together, we've been sustainable.

And she was really, really pleased and grateful.

And we had a talk about.

About exactly that subject as a result.

So it was just a, a beautiful evening really for that reason.

And, um, but I, I find it struggle sometimes to look for those opportunities.

Uh, I dunno whether you have that same thought or whether there are opportunities

that you specifically can think of.

I.

I mean, I definitely have those and we, again, Zoe and I wrote in becoming

a sustainable runner about this exact thing of what you just mentioned there,

Rob, about, uh, traveling to a race with someone else, not only are you saving

on your driving, but your, and money on, you know, on not two people driving,

but also, um, You get to talk through how you're feeling about that race and

say, oh, I'm feeling a bit nervous.

Or like, oh, I had a really stressful day at work.

I dunno how this training session is gonna go.

You get to actually human connect.

Human to human because particularly, uh, a lot of the things that we

do are individual, are on our own.

And as we were talking about earlier, like loneliness, like, um, you know, This gives

us an opportunity to find other people, um, and, and make the most of that.

So there's good that comes from it.

But, um, yes, I definitely have a lot of moments where, um, for

me it's particularly, as I said, I'm always the awkward one.

Like a friend will say, oh, we're going across, let's say

I'm in Chicago, or I'm in.

Austin, Texas or somewhere.

Um, as, again, I'm usually in the US but uh, I will take, say, let's

take a bike or let's take the train.

And initially people, uh, I don't wanna do that.

I'm used to taking my Uber or my, um, you know, taxi or whatever it might be.

So initially there's always like a hesitancy, but I always use

the opportunity to be like, come on, just come with me on bike.

And they always end up having fun and they're like, you know,

I never would've thought of, of, of taking a bike across town.

That was, again, an automatic habit of just jumping in a, in a taxi.

Um, and so I love to find those opportunities or, uh, like little

ways to just drop climate in the conversation without it being a lecture.

And I think that's something that every single person who has that is

in that 80% can do in some capacity.

As I said earlier with the, the meatless, like, I'm trying to

eat meatless one day a week.

I'm not, we are not asking everyone to go vegan.

You know, that, that is too much to ask for too many people, but

we can do meatless one day a week.

Well, anyone can do that.

So, um, yeah, finding those opportunities is, is a scary thing to do.

But the more we do it, the more.

The easier it becomes in your transition, in your journey towards,

or living a more sustainable life.

I was wondering, um, if there was a moment when you realized, oh, wow.

Okay.

Because I remember when I started running, I thought, well, this is very simple.

Just, you know, get out and, uh, and run.

So you can just take a pair of sneakers and just run.

And uh, actually the first time I was.

Sick because I was just running very, very minimal short and

have no idea what it was doing.

, but one of the reason that I started running is that it was simple, easy.

It doesn't require a lot of equipment.

But then now if I look at all them, um, running equipment, I have acquired.

Uh, I, you know, the, uh, watches the different, uh, PAL running shoes and

not talking about all these t-shirts I have from running this, all these races.

And I stopped thinking that running is something that is, um, isn't sustainable

and we kind a lot investment actually.

Um, in your journey, so was it a moment to think, wow, that's

just a we could, or what was the.

We could make it things there, what was the moment you realized that we

need to do something and transition?

Was it a clear moment?

Do you mean specifically in running or like environmentally in general?

Well, it could be both.

Like, you know, environmentally in general and then see the opportunity.

We were talking about opportunities early, you know, when did you see that web

this platform that you created through running, you could, uh, use it to mm-hmm.

To not lecture, but spread the ideas of of living a more sustainable lives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, well, environmentally in general, I, I remember this so clearly.

It was, uh, in geography class when I was in school hearing about acid

rain over Scandinavia from the uk pollution and thinking like, That is

not okay that we are like literally causing acid rain in a country that's

especially like Scandinavia, you know?

Um, I was like, this is not, I remember that being a moment where it really

sunk in of like, okay, this is a global world that one, one country's

decisions affect everyone else.

Um, but in running, yeah, it was, um, I mean, Jeremy can probably attest to this.

I think over time I started talking about it more and more when I could.

I'd bring it up in conversations and I'd, uh, start talking about it.

But I decided I was one day driving, talking to a friend, and I remember

even, you know, those moments where you remember all the details.

I remember where I was.

Remember what was going on.

I remember what was playing on the radio.

I said to one of my friends about, I was complaining about

something environmentally, I don't remember what that was.

And she said, well, why don't, why are you not talking about this?

I don't understand.

Like, this is such a passion of yours and you're not saying anything.

Um, and she really called me out on it.

And, um, and so I decided to do this challenge that I called a

hundred Days of Sustainability.

It was on social media, it was also an email, um, email.

Challenge so anyone can still sign up if you want to.

Um, on my website.

Um, and I emailed for a hundred days and made reels and videos about.

A hundred things you can do.

And these again, are not like big obviously.

I did mention about voting and I did mention about calling up your, uh,

representatives or whatever that might be to try and make change, but a lot of it

was again, planting those little seeds.

And it was very quickly within starting that, it was like actually eight days

in that the, uh, c o o of the Chicago Marathon called me eight days in.

And so that was such a like moment of.

Wow.

This space is needing someone to do this.

People are very interested.

Uh, these videos were not highly produced.

It was literally me holding up a camera, and Jeremy probably knows

this, holding up a camera, talking to it for 30 seconds and uploading it.

It wasn't professionally done at all, but people really, I would get people.

Sending me messages saying I had my hand hovering over the bin, the trash can

with a Ziploc bag, and I was about to throw it in, and then I thought of you

and I pulled it back and I reused it.

Um, so, or being I was in the, the.

Supermarket and I was, had my hand on the paper towels and then

I thought, no, actually I should probably just buy some reusable ones.

Like, so I started to see these little seeds to where they grew and grew

and grew, and people started thinking about other changes they could make.

So during that 100 days, I just got to see such a snowball effect.

And even though those changes, even if every person who saw that did

every single one of them would make.

The tiniest tiny percentage of change in global emissions, it got it in people's

heads and got the, their fingers out of their ears so they could actually start

listening and being interested in it.

So, uh, I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that was a real

changing moment of, of that friend calling me out, um, taking that leap of faith,

doing it in an imperfect way to say that.

You know, I also find this really hard.

And then, um, seeing things come from it from there,, you did

answer my question very clearly, and, uh, you use it very important

work is doing it in imperfect way.

Um, a lot of times we don't do things because we want to find the perfect way

of solving the problem and, um, Yeah.

No, it is.

I mean, that's one of the biggest keys, isn't it?

Um, because, uh, and, and you know, flying is a good example for me.

I'm from the uk.

I live in the us like I cannot and will not commit to never flying again.

My parents, I would like to see my family sometimes.

So even if I were to cut out everything else, like I can't do that.

I can't also take six weeks to go across the Atlantic on a boat.

Um, so it's okay for us to admit that we don't have everything down.

And that I think is, is really what breaks the barriers down

to where people start to listen.

I remember one crossroads for me, um, was, uh, during the Covid crisis when

we were allowed to go out a little bit and in Birmingham, the air was so fresh

I couldn't believe how fresh it was.

And uh, I remember going out for a run for two hours because I'd started doing

Strava art and uh, there were two of us.

I love that.

Two, two of us that did Strava art.

The problem, the, the problem was for me that I could go out and run for two

hours, but Helen is an ultra runner and she could go out for six hours.

So I would go out for two hours and draw my rather basic, uh, childlike lion.

And then literally within 10 minutes of me posting it on Strava, Helen

would post a detailed picture of Elvis Presley or a dinosaur.

And so everybody in our club was taking the Mickey outta me.

And, uh, so yeah, he, Helen Helen's an absolutely fantastic, uh, runner, and

she often wins, um, not just her, um, her age group, but, uh, she often wins

the women's race and usually is one of the top people in the whole race.

So, um, so I, I, I, I, to her superiority on that one.

That's such an important point though, because, um, a, I definitely would like

to see some of your Strava and, uh, I guess Strava is the app that runners

and cyclists use for their training.

But um, b that's such a good example of that, isn't it, of the imperfect,

like you went out and there and did it, and we live in this world.

Again, this is another concept we talked about in the book.

We live in a world where you could do a 20 mile run and you're so proud of

yourself, and then you log into social media and you see someone did a 24 mile

run and suddenly your 20 means nothing.

Um, and we just live in this world of where it makes us scared to

share anything because there's always someone better than us.

Um, so that's such an important example you shared there because.

You know, it's about doing it, not doing it perfectly or the best.

Yeah, no, I, I, I did keep posting my art for some time.

I wanna see it.

I'll, I'll dig them out.

Yeah.

I, I just wanna say, I think this is a, a really important concept

of, like Tino was saying before of.

There's plenty of reasons why everyone can feel bad about themselves day to

day or like even feel bad with respect to like how the whole world is, is, uh,

functioning at the moment for, there's like plenty of things to worry about.

And so it's so important sometimes to, I.

Just how Yeah.

To do, to do something and perfectly.

But even like, like Tina, you were explaining with, um, your

a hundred days of sustainability to give other people the ideas.

'cause the actions themselves, like you said, won't really do much

in terms of the big picture, but.

The, the consequences of people thinking about these things and like,

you just need a few people to like really latch onto these ideas and like

stick with them for years on end and this can make a much bigger difference

than just the individual actions.

So, yeah, I think, uh, I think about this a lot is like, sometimes, you

know, I might be, might be tired.

I don't want to, you know, you know, like it takes energy sometimes to like

go and either break your own habits or.

Talk to others about it.

Like for me, like it takes energy for me often is like, it's like, do I really

wanna spend this extra energy to like go and convince someone that's like

already set on not doing X, Y, or Z?

But then at the end of the day, I tell myself, okay, like maybe I can give

myself some grace to do one thing.

You don't have to do all of the things.

You don't have to do this 24 7.

If you do something, just you, you start, you start the process and

then day by day, like training when you're, when you're running, it's like

this makes the difference over time.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Running correlates so well to this conversation.

So what I really wanted to ask you was, What fills you with hope these

days surrounding like the environment and like your, say, say your work with

these sustainability organizations.

So like we were talking about before, there's plenty of things to worry

about, but what fills you with hope?

Like what are you excited about in thinking like this is

really, um, making a difference.

Um, yeah, I mean there's, there's a lot of things I see when I see the,

I so often we can feel like we're out there alone as, as we've talked about

a little bit earlier, that you are the only one that caress or you're the, you,

you're the only one thinking about this.

And particularly if you become that person in your life who's always

like the, the one who's bringing it up, it can feel it's tiring.

As you said earlier, Jeremy, to just like, keep, keep doing

things, keep bringing it up.

Um, But getting around other people who are passionate about this and who

talk about this, that really helps.

So this whole community you've got here is amazing.

Um, because that I think, really energizes me and, and to see all the different

things that, all the different innovations and, and, Ideas that are coming out of

people with their different perspectives, with their different roles, with the,

the, the way that they touch things.

I mean, even people working at, um, these big corporations can big bring

up, um, you know, Hey, maybe we should make these meetings, uh, the.

The meeting notes, digital, right?

They could bring that something as small.

So we all have our piece to play and I love coming into contact with

other people who are doing that.

So that brings me a lot of hope with the sustainability teams, you know,

kind of having those inside jokes that you get, being that person.

Um, and, and also I, I do get hope from seeing different people coming together.

Um, I remember hearing a podcast episode.

What podcast was it?

Um, it might have been how to Save a planet.

Um, I can't remember, but there was this podcast where they were talking about

these different career fields that had nothing to do with each other, coming

together to find a solution that worked because you had the engineers involved

and you had the creatives involved, and you had the professors involved.

And so I love the concept of like, again, that working together, um, the

community in terms of whatever that means.

Using all these different skills and, and knowledge and ideas to figure things out.

I really do feel hopeful in that way.

And also the other thing that gives me hope are, and I feel

at 34, I can now say I'm not.

Youth, but the youth of today, um, coming through those teenagers, the, uh, early

twenties that were, that generation coming through, I feel so inspired by

them because they just are relentless.

They're not taking no for an answer.

I mean, the just stop oil people.

I, the ones that are slow marching every day, I am so inspired by them.

Um, I can't do it, but I being here, but I, I like.

I just think that's such a critical piece here because yes, it's annoying people.

Yes, it's inconveniencing people, but at the end of the day, it is

drawing attention that is needed.

So yeah, three groups.

Um, I'm just feeling so inspired by.

So yeah, thank you for, uh, for this very generous answer.

It's, uh, I, I, I think you're right.

Uh, surrounding, surrounding ourselves with others that, uh, are on the same

journey or on slightly different, but with the same general goal is, is, is so great.

And it is, it is like, it's really nourishing, I guess at some levels that

you, you, you, you get energy from this.

And seeing other people doing things.

And uh, that might not necessarily be the things that you would do, like,

you know, uh, from just stop oil.

I cannot do, but I have a lot of admiration for them.

But , uh, and it's annoys a lot of people, but, you know, it's, there's no

one way of trying to solve this problem.

And this again, comes back to what, uh, Rob was saying earlier

about polarizing polarization.

Yeah.

Yeah, we all have our role to play for sure.

Just wondering what if, um, you've had any, um, partner organizations, uh, some

of the running shoe companies or, uh, clothing companies who've become involved

with some of your, uh, activities?

I.

Yeah, I mean it's, I do, I definitely, I, I work with Allbirds,

um, who are a partner of mine.

Um, they are doing incredible work, um, in terms of making,

um, sustainably made products.

They're really focusing on pushing.

Not just the running industry, but all the industries that touch the

lifestyle sector, uh, to sharing their carbon number, to sharing the, uh, the

emissions that they are creating with each product that they, uh, they make,

uh, or beds just share that they now have a shoe that is, uh, not through

offsets, but actual changes they've made.

They've, they've made a shoe that's coming out next year that is, Zero carbon

emissions, which is really exciting.

And so I love working with them.

Um, and having seen the underside, seen the people that work there, even though

they're a publicly traded company, they are fighting hard to keep the soul of

the company and make it be environmental.

Um, environmentalism as their value, sustainability as one of their

core things, even though they're in this world that is telling them

profit, profit, profit at all costs.

Like I really have seen the underside of these fighters underneath

who are like, Nope, we are not letting you take that away from us.

Um, you, we are, sustainability is why we are here and we

are here to change the game.

So they are absolutely the brand that come to mind for me.

Um, and a lot of the major brands are making changes.

Um, As far as I know, out of the major running brands, Adidas is

the one that is doing the most.

Um, but I personally, uh, I work with, uh, Allbirds and I work with a, a

company called Tracksmith here in the US who sustainability isn't one of

their core, but they make very high quality, long-lasting clothes, which as

we all know is another piece of this.

Um, you, your clothes need to be able to handle, you know?

50, a hundred, 200 washes before they, or multiple runs,

um, before they need a wash.

And so, you know, I tend to look at things from a different perspective as well.

Uh, I, I do see a lot of greenwashing as well.

Um, and, uh, I continue to push or encourage others.

That's, again, something we brought up in the book is.

Challenge the companies that you care about.

Ask them what they're doing.

Um, and if they're just putting like grass and, and cows or, um, you know,

green trees on their website, but not really saying anything, like, ask

them what are you actually doing here?

Um, and you know, be aware of things where, where they say

50% more recycled materials.

When it was only 1% before, which makes 2%.

So, you know, we challenge people to really, um, be.

Inquisitive with the brands that you care about, and then to cut down on what

you need and, and minimize the, um, the amount of new things you need to buy.

Um, so I really try and push the running brands, um, or other

people to push the running brands.

And when I have the opportunity, I deffinitely bring it up.

So, yeah.

Thank you.

I think, I think this was good.

Like thanks again.

Uh, Tina, Tina for this.

It was, uh, it was great.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

I, I, I love conversations like this.

They're really, really important.

The work that you are all doing in the space is, is needed and important,

and building that sense of hope.

I mentioned we need, we need this.

And so thank you all for your work that you've done.

Um, And, uh, yeah, I feel indebted to you in terms of being those people who are

making change happen through conversations like this and through the book.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

That's next.

Yeah.

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