In this episode, Sam chats with Katie about what it actually looks like to rebuild life after religious trauma, especially coming out of a strict Catholic environment. Katie shares how growing up in rigid faith shaped her identity, leaving her stuck in perfectionism, people-pleasing, and constantly second-guessing herself. Together, they unpack the idea of redefining spirituality outside organised religion; shifting it from rules and performance into something personal, embodied, and genuinely life-giving. The conversation also gets practical, exploring small ways people can reconnect with themselves through hobbies, rituals, and everyday choices, reminding listeners that recovery isn’t about having it all figured out; it’s about slowly learning to trust your own voice again.

Who Is Katie?

Katie Krier is a Spiritual Wellness Coach who helps people rebuild identity and personal sovereignty after religion. Her work supports those disentangling from religious conditioning and learning to live from their own inner authority.

Connect with us

1. Katies website - https://katiemkrier.com/start-here
2. Connect via Facebook, LinkedIn & Instagram

1. You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
2. To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
3. Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
4. Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to beyond the Surface.

This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that you're here with us.

Welcome Katie. Thanks for joining me.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Before we kick start into the conversation, where in the world are you?

At the moment, I am in very sunny Denver, Colorado, usa.

Is the sunny, like, are you being ironic? Because, like, isn't it winter over there?

It is winter and we actually have the most sun in the country. We have like over 300 days of sun. It's a very beautiful place to live.

Oh my goodness.

I'm just like, I automatically thought you were being like sarcastic and ironic because, like, usually when, like we've had a heat wave this last week pretty much across most of the country and I thought for sure, like, you're in winter is cold. But no. Yeah, so that's nice.

We get, we can get pretty cold. Like, we can definitely get in the, in the, you know, zero degrees.

But when it, usually when it snows, it gets sunny and the snow is usually gone by the afternoon.

Beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a really great place. No, but you know, there's no humidity. Very, very temperate.

Yeah.

You should come visit.

If it wasn't for all of the rest of the things happening in your nation, that would sound very but anyway, let's not completely derail the episode before it even starts. Today is going to be a little bit of a mishmash of things. I think most people are used to either expecting story based or education, insight based.

And we're going to just like throw that to the wind and just do both in one episode, which will be great.

So before we sort of like kick straight into that sort of space, tell us, I guess, a little bit about your story and religion and like all of that connection and how you are in the space that you are now.

Yeah, happy to. Thank you. Well, I. It wasn't a very clean. It's not a very clean and tidy story.

I guess I would start with saying, takes a while, you know, to sometimes sort out like what is actually happening for yourself to back up. I grew up in a pretty strict religious environment, pretty rigid, pretty much a strict Roman Catholic, as you could get. Okay.

I'm the fifth of seven children. And yeah, that matters because that birth. Yeah. And that birth order really matters.

And uh, I think that my parents did a great job in terms of like, how to like take care of this family and what kind of structure do we get them. And church was the place, you know, that really was like everything, the foundation and, and all of this, the place to grow this family.

And I was definitely.

My personality and my temperament is definitely one that was like, probably needed a little more attention than I got and you know, tried to win a lot of approval and a lot of these ways in which that kind of setting sets you up to kind of cultivate like perfectionism and people pleasing and all of these, all of these things. I was like the most susceptible.

And Catholicism is kind of built on doing the right thing. So that kind of just like feeds the, the same structure in the same narrative, I imagine.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, it's, it's. And then it's so layered. Right? It's, it's. You're bad from day one. Right.

And your, your body is absolutely bad as, as a female. And so I was just always trying to do the right thing. And it was, it kind of created this like, very delayed maturity in a sense.

So on the one end I was extremely independent and very adult very early. Like, just, you know, just felt like, like knew I had to be that, but also like very behind from a developmental standpoint.

So I only just realized in the last 10 years that like, I was really missing some developmental layers as a kid and which was contributing to a lot of like, discourse and, and hardship in understanding who I Was later. And essentially I was trying to still be. Do the right.

Like, I went to a Catholic university, and I was trying to do the right, like, the thing for a long time, singing in church up until my mid-30s, and my dad's a music teacher. And so it was. That was a big part of that and trying to still make it make sense. And then really a lot of big life things fell apart.

And getting a divorce and career stuff was just so hard and harder than I was seeing, like, my. My friend or my friends and really just kind of like, had a total implosion when I had some.

Yeah.

I was just like, you know, maintaining status quo, but kind of this underlying, like, something's not right. And this rupture kind of sent me into.

I like to call it like, a very long, dark night of the soul or this real, like, spiraling into me, into a deconstruction essentially. Just like, what. What is the point? I don't get the point here. What are. What are we doing? Like, is this it?

So I. I pulled a lot of levers to pull me out of that in terms of finding a really good therapist, finding slowly but surely finding some really great community. I found psychedelics. I spent time kind of just figuring out what some real basic pieces of, like, what does work for me.

Everything from having some structure in my day or my week that actually makes sense for me instead of somebody else telling me what it's supposed to look like. Yeah. So I. Eventually. That was 28. What are we, seven, seven, eight years away from that now. And what I realized throughout all of that is I was.

I was able to balance out this real darkness, not really knowing that I sent myself into my own reconstruction on not knowing anything about that. I just knew I had to feel better. Yeah. And had to start sorting out some stuff. And when you realize, like, oh, I am so traumatized.

And you're like, when that comes into focus, you're like, oh, yeah.

I think I argued with my therapist for a good 12 to 18 months that. And he kept going like, this is really just trauma. And I'm like, no, it's not.

No, it's not. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because, because really, I mean, there is a real. I think there is still a very general understanding that religious trauma has to mean something criminal.

Yes. Yeah.

Right.

Yes. And typically, like, I think for A lot of people, particularly with the Catholic Church, religious trauma is sexual abuse.

Like that sort of like that's the connection that a lot of people make.

And if it doesn't look like that or it doesn't look like financial exploitation potentially also, then, well, it just sounds like you landed in a shitty church and it just.

Well, you should be fine.

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's really, I've really noticed that people can feel quite unsettled when I bring this up, that this is the source of my trauma because it's, it, it's so deeply layered and conditioned. And that indoctrination starting from child, from, from being born is like, is an unwinding that takes a lot of time.

Yeah.

To really understand what's going on.

I actually sit with like, I kind of sit with the, the notion that I remember David Haywood said in the episode that I did with him, he said, I'll be deconstructing until the day I die. And I was like, yeah, that kind of lands. Like, there is always so many layers.

Like people come and see me as a practitioner, like sometimes decades after they've left and they're like, I just found this onion layer. Like, I just found it and I didn't know it existed. And it's like, oh yeah, that probably will keep happening. Like we'll always find those layers.

Particularly like you said, when you are born into that system, it's part of your DNA. I've heard so many people use that language of like, it feels hardwired into my DNA.

Yeah. I, I had some friends, some really dear friends help me sort out because I, because there was still like this like trying to make sense thing. Right.

Like what's actually going on. Yeah. And man, having their help was so great because I was realizing that my therapist years ago was like.

Or years before this was like you as somebody. He just kind of didn't realize I didn't know this. And he said, as somebody with a lot of social anxiety, da, da, da, da. And I was like, wait, I do.

I have social. And he goes, he goes, wait, you didn't know? And I said, oh, because. Because Sam, I have been in, I have been in outside sales for my whole career.

Yeah. And so I was in this profession that really did not suit me. It was, it was actually so challenging to like get up and go and do this thing.

But I just like, yeah. Thought. But I performed it all right. And that's part of this, this trauma is this performance based thing.

And perfectionism really suited me in that too. But. But him. Him pointing that out.

And then I had this realization that, oh, I. I just realized I have finally landed, that I have all this social anxiety. And then it allowed me to uncover that it was really because I like my person. I don't. I couldn't figure out what was my personality inside of that.

So all this anxiety, trying to be what, like, always like this. Right. Like, always on high alert. What is.

What is knowing the room immediately when I walk into it and, like, assessing it and what it created is this. All of these layers covering up, like, who I am. And the path to, like, trying to sort that out has been really fun and really cool and.

And feels like, wow, what a corner I was able to turn for myself and. Yeah. Because I just kept saying there were. I knew deep down I'm like, what am I missing? I am. I am missing something here. And then had.

Had this all kind of come to light.

Yeah. So I. I imagine we will, like, tease that out a little bit more because we're going to talk a lot about three.

Three sort of areas in terms of spirituality, embodiment and connection to self.

But I want to sort of, like, start with spirituality because I want to ask a question on your story that might sort of, like, bridge into this area, which is I like to ask.

And I always get such random answers from people who grew up in Catholicism because it kind of just depends on what area and what your family was like as to what it was.

Yeah.

Whereas I pretty much always get the same sort of like. Or a similar answer from evangelical people. What was your. Like, you grew up, like, cult Catholicism? Catholicism is quite cultural.

And so was your relationship with God cultural or was it personal while you were growing up in that space?

Yeah. I would say I was a really good girl and doing what I thought I should be doing.

Yeah.

So I think that. I think that's what really made it kind of fall apart is I didn't. It didn't really work for me what was being told to me. I.

And I've really flipped a corner now because I actually feel like the. The teachings feel a bit. Well, feel like child abuse to me to be like, you have to praise the Father and it's all glory to him and all of these ways.

And.

And it also mentioned the blood sacrifice.

Yeah. And are we eating him? You pointed that out.

You tell.

I went to a Catholic school. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, yeah. The whole idea that, like, literally, like, how are we okay with, like, metaphorical cannibalism I don't know.

But anyway.

And yeah, I remember being a kid and being like, actually, yeah. But I was like, is it actually the blood of Christ? And my parents are like, yes, maybe, you know, I mean. Yeah. So I think.

And also I am, I am now finally having some memories from my childhood are finally coming into focus, which feels so cool. Some of them are like, not great and feel hard, but also like, good to know. Like, for instance, you know, I went to school with nuns and. Yeah.

And I remember first confession, which is reconciliation, which is where you go and tell the priest what you did so that they can absolve you and you get a penance, which is usually like five Hail Marys or something simple, especially for little kids.

Yeah.

But I remember standing in line for this first one and the nun is like going down the line making sure each kid knows what they're going to say because there's a lot of kids. And I'm sure that she's got to keep them, keep them going. Right.

Yeah.

And I can't believe I remember this, but she says, she says to me, what are you going to say? And I remember saying, I don't know. And she said, we'll just make something up.

Yeah.

Now think about how twisted that is. Right. We're going in to be absolved of these things. But she's telling me to lie.

And so I think some of these memories, you know, going back to your question, have really, have really shown me how I was like, it wasn't making sense for me for a very long time. Right.

So, yeah, I, I also have a memory of like, I was a non Catholic in a Catholic school. And so it was, that was a fun time.

But the, the, the f. The priest in, in our parish was, he was the kind who would go back to the teachers and if people didn't have a, like a bad enough confession, then he would tell the teachers. So that would then go back to your parents and be like, you know, they're lying in confession. They're.

They're just trying to like get away with like small sins, essentially. So it's like all of the irony around, like, what is supposed to be this like sacred ritual is actually like.

I mean, it's really problematic on so many levels. But like, you can just like at that, like at that point where like, it's not sacred at all.

It's actually just like Chinese whispers between all of the people.

People.

And you're then like, I mean, I wonder how many other of those kids that she was checking on were confessing about lying, and then she's telling you to lie. The, like, the irony of it is just palpable. But anyway.

Yeah, Yeah, I. That's so interesting that you are not Catholic and went to the school. Yeah.

It's not a Fantoma. Don't recommend it.

And have to do all those things.

Yeah. Oh, no.

Yeah. I mean, church three or four times.

Yeah. I had to do confession, but I wasn't allowed to do any of the other rituals because I was not Catholic.

So that's like a really nice, fun separation from the rest of your classmates.

Yeah. But anyway. Unbelievable. I thought the whole point of this was hope and belonging. Come on.

You are so mistaken, Katie. It's all about exclusion. Oh, goodness.

Okay, so like, like, if we shift into, like, spirituality, because, like, how do you define spirituality and how do you define it outside of religion? Because I think those two things are so intertwined that people just think you can't have one without the other.

Totally. And I, I get. I get that that is really the culture.

And I like to really simplify it because I think for people who have left a rigid or high control religion, that feels like an anomaly. Right. To be able to find some kind of spiritual thing. And so we just start with if that is the place, the headspace there. And we start with what is.

What does the word spiritual mean to you? And we start with that and then. And I try to help simplify it and take the weight out of it because it's.

It's really just a connection to yourself and the world around you. Right. We get. And we get to make that mean whatever we want to make it mean, because everything else was made up. Yeah.

And so where do you want to take that? What does that mean to you?

And a lot of times we just remove spiritual spirituality, the word prayer, we remove it all for a long time because it just doesn't. It's not helpful. It's been kind of ruined for people.

And I've only recently started, say, you know, making the word prayer work for me again and sits differently now. But that took some time. Took some time. So.

And I think that's like a good point, which is that actually there's nothing inherently wrong with those practices. It's the way that the practices have been weaponized in systems of control. Right.

Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. They ruined them. They ruined these beautiful things. Yeah.

And I mean, subsequently, it's also okay if you want to throw them all in the bin and never pick them up again. So that's Also. Okay, so, yeah, I mean, so much of what faith and spirituality looks like inside of religion is based in certainty.

And so then how do we find something that looks like spirituality that is not based in certainty, if that's what we're so used to?

Yeah, that is such a good question. I think there's two kind of main outcomes I like to work on with people which we're heading towards.

Like, let's take this opportunity to learn who you are. Right. And let's start there. Because you never got that chance. We skipped it, probably. We did. We missed being a curious kid.

We miss getting to make mistakes. Right. And so having a little bit of playfulness around that I often step into. I really think all of this should take place through the body. Right.

So we can access it a lot easier by going through the body. And so I've been a yoga teacher for a very long time, taught breath work. I'm heading into psychedelic guiding, so that will be another cool thing.

We can thread, we can pull if we want to. But once we can, like, meet ourselves, even just a little bit in terms of our body, it starts to open up some things.

Transforming some things into what is it that I value or I believe or what truly for me, what. What is that? But those are, like, a little bit down the way. We start a little easier, you know, with things like what pizza topping do you like?

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Especially for the moms. The moms. When you've just catered to a family and. And been taking care of everybody else. And so it's.

It's that it's like learning who we are. It's. It's working through some hard things because those are often in the way.

And I. I really like when people are in therapy, too, at this, you know, at the same time or. Or have been in having some awareness there. And then we work on, like, the.

More like, moving forward things and tangible things and, like, activity, you know, activities or yoga or whatever we want to do.

And the second piece to that, after learning kind of who you are, is stepping into kind of meaning and how do we pull back in what's meaningful to you? Because we decided that doesn't work. And then it can feel like, you know, the sand underneath us is like just. It's just sand underneath us. Right.

The ground is soft and those. That's actually such a beautiful one because again, you get to decide. And we pull in new rituals for yourself. Right.

Like, for me, all of a sudden, I realized I really love walking around this lake every day.

And that became a very like, beautiful ritual for myself to connect with the earth, connect with the outdoors and nature, and kind of became church for me. And it was. And it's so meaningful. Right.

But if we don't know really what meaning is, that can be a little bit of a gap there until we like, find some things that, that work. You know, if, if life feels a little bit ungrounded from a day to day or, you know, kind of a calendar or structural perspective.

Let's say you used to pray before every meal. We can do something different. We could, I don't know, maybe your child has a poem they like or whatever.

We, we do gratitude things in my house and layer in kind of the things that worked for you in church that are no longer there and that you, you maybe want to bring back in. So a lot oftentimes it's very tightly associated with community and belonging. That's a big one that really, that we need and.

Yeah, so those are the two things I feel like between those two, you can become quite embodied and deeply spiritual just on your own. Right. It's. It's all about you.

Yeah. And I think like you said, connection is. Spirituality is just a connection to yourself and to the world around you.

Which means, realistically, anything can become a spiritual practice. Anything can feel spiritual to you. Like, I, I love the idea of just sort of like keeping time replacing ritual.

Like, I used to be the person who would start my day reading the Bible and doing a devotion and things like that. And I still do start my day reading. It's just with a coffee in my Kindle.

And I read far more inappropriate things than the Bible, but read trauma books or things like that. So like, it's still, I'm still doing a similar practice, but it's just in a way that honors where I am at now as opposed to where I used to be.

And I love the simplicity of, of what that looks like in that. I think a lot of people have this idea that spirituality post religion looks like tarot and crystals and oracle cards.

Right.

And that's great. And I also love all of those things, but that's also not what it has to look like.

It can look like nature and swimming and I mean, you said pizza top things and I was like, food is pretty spiritual to me. So.

Totally.

Yeah. I love the simplicity that like, actually spirituality doesn't have to look in any way, shape or form of what you think it needs to look like.

Yeah.

But also that's messy and terrifying and uncertain when you've Been given a prescriptive idea. And, and so how do you sort of like.

Or how did you also like, for your own experience, how did you deal with that, like, not knowing, Feeling like I have no idea. This is messy. There's so much uncertainty here. What was that like for you?

Yeah, I think that there has been a lot of capacity building for myself in terms of being okay with the not knowing.

Yeah.

And I think that was a, you know, when I was deep in deconstruction and deep in this like, pretty depressed and traumatic state, I went through a lot of that. And even that alone was building capacity for myself to be okay with it until, you know, and this mine lasted a long time, like six, seven years.

And by at some point I, you know, it's slow, so it's deep, deep, deep. And then as you're slowly coming out, things are kind of popping back in and I'm getting more.

And with that capacity, I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea that I don't think I'm going to go to hell. Right. Yeah.

It's a pretty nice feeling.

Yeah. And I think this is all made up and I think that it's. It's not for me. Yeah.

And once that was starting to really feel like embodied and land, then it made it a lot easier to sit with. Okay, what does work and. And allow it and let it work. Right. And. And not let it. And not make it have to be something so big.

Like, oh, well, now I think the thing, you know, I love what you touched on about like now it has to be crystals or it has to be this very woo thing. Yeah. I think that's so common is that we swing all the way the other way then.

And I talked, I definitely stepped into some of that, but then I was like, that doesn't work for me. It. It just doesn't. I love it. But it didn't like, you know, when something really fuels you or, or is life giving. Right.

And when it really feels like, like it works for you and that.

I'm gonna stop you there and ask a question because I don't often do that because what if though?

And this is often what I find with like a lot of people who come from like evangelical spaces or like anything where what is centered is it's not about religion, it's about relationship.

You have a relationship with God, a personal, direct line of contact, particularly in faith spaces where there is a premise on spiritual gifts and connecting to the Holy Spirit and things like that. And so what if that Also felt life giving.

And then how do you tell the difference between that and how am I supposed to know if something is life giving again? Because this also felt life giving.

Yeah, I think that's a curious question, right? Yeah. Because I think. I think I can relate to that in that I really felt like, you know, going to church and being a part of.

I so wanted to be so deeply involved with this big family that I have. And then when it just didn't, I think I was wanting it so much that it didn't happen. And then that was like, the turmoil that happened from that.

Right. Is what spun me into figuring out what does actually land. And so not everybody's going to have such a huge moment that takes them there.

But I think if you are in this place where you're trying to sort out, okay, what now, I think there's some real discovery that can happen around. Was that actually life giving?

Yeah.

Right. Yeah, because. Because, for instance, like, worship music, you know, it's. It is so calculated and. And they.

They know the four chords that are really going to move everybody and they're gonna, like, take us to this place. And that is not the spirit. That is just good music. Like, music that people like and like, it's. It's part of our. Our chemistry.

And so it's kind of a question. It's like, oh, and I do tell people all the time, like, replace some of that with, like, great concerts.

You want to go listen to some awesome music that. That feels like it's moving you because it can do the same thing. And then we start to understand. Wait, was that really life giving?

Yeah.

Was that me in that, or was I really doing a good job of playing this part in this thing? Yeah, right. That. In this thing that wasn't actually ever looking out for me.

Yeah.

Yep.

As a. I mean, people listening will know that I talk about this quite often. As a former worship leader, I talk a lot about, like, oh, you were ye. And. And I like.

I honestly probably, like, it would have been a good 12 to 18 months where I just could not listen to music at all. Any genre, any style, even instrumental music, because I just could not tell the difference between what my.

Like, and also, we'll talk about this as well, because my body was. I was so disconnected from my body, like, just the. I couldn't.

I thought every piece of music was like the spirit moving because, like, every piece of music, like, like your body responds to it, whether it's like Hillsong or Lady Gaga. And so it was kind of like the am I supposed to make of that? And so I just basically cut it all out because I couldn't.

I couldn't deal with also the pain of losing like the connection to music and to worship and things like that. And so it is one of those things.

Things where you go, you learn more and you go, oh, actually no, that's just like emotional manipulation with like a beautiful chord progression. And so it just.

It's so messy and complicated where the things that felt so beautiful and intimate and life giving actually now just feel a little bit fun is kind of

my clinical therapy language. Oh, I'm so sorry though. It's a horrible truth when we, When, Yeah. When we are faced with that. It's not fun. We're not. No one would choose this. Right?

Like, no one's like, can't wait to deconstruct this thing that was my whole life.

Yeah. No, not at all. It's awful. Yeah. Okay, let's.

Let's. I'm so sorry.

And like I talk about it quite bit a often, but it's. Yeah, it's like shitty every. Like it's still always.

And now I just get a kick out of like writing substacks about all of the problematic worship lyrics that I used to sing. So at least I. I have some fun with it.

So many.

Yeah.

So many. Okay.

One of the things that I notice so often in this space is people leave one fundamental system and they land in another fundamental system system and it's just slightly less problematic or slightly less harmful.

And so how can someone tell the difference between a new form of spirituality that is nourishing or a spirituality that just has the same old control mechanisms, but it just looks a whole lot aesthetically pleasing and prettier.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I would say I even did that with yoga.

Yeah.

Like trying to sort this out. And all of a sudden I land in this thing where it's kind of culty in some ways and. But.

But really felt good to find because it was like, oh, this new. This place that feels like community is here and, and people feel like they have good hearts and stuff. Very similar to church. Right. It's.

I was just reflecting on this the other day that I literally did that.

Yeah.

And then I had this. You know, one of the things that's too bad about. About religion is that they remove your ability to be discerning.

Yes.

And it's so important. It's like we got chopped off at the ankles, you know, And I then I headed into a giant training. I have a Lot of training in yoga.

And the second big one I did right before I got certified, it. It completely imploded because the guy who was, like, the main creator of it was doing illegal things and bad stuff with women and Totally bad.

And you're like, I just gave this guy a ton of money. And what is happening? I didn't have the realization then, too. Which is interesting.

Yeah.

But this was pre. Pre any of this. So I still. I still was trying to be Catholic too. And my parents didn't. You could. You could feel the.

The disapproval about me heading into this yoga thing. And I would just always be like, it's not a religion, but a little bit. Yeah. But it is cold. Yeah. And I think that.

I think sometimes that is just what you have to do.

Yeah.

To really figure out where it's going to land. Right. Where the right place is for you and. And learn these lessons. I don't think we can just avoid everything.

I think my hope is that for people, once you've left something that was really traumatic, that you then land in a place where, at least if it is religious, they're not. They're not taking the Bible literally. Right. That seems to be a problem. And that they don't remove the power of the individual Person. Person.

And when everything. Even in, like, yoga or whatever, when everything is taught from a place that it lives outside of you.

Meaning, like in Catholicism, like, you're praying to something else. You're not. It's very disconnected from actually what's inside.

Yeah.

And you're going to be saved by something else. And you're going to. Everything is outside of you. I. I would say things probably feel a little cleaner when.

When it is all about the individual person and how they feel and how they experience it. And that if something were not right for them, that they can actually say it. And. And that's not a big deal.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah. I also think even just, like, throwing in the word have to, like, I think if you feel like you have to do it, that's probably not a great sign that.

That, like, a new sense of spirituality is nourishing you. It's like restricting you in some way. Because if you feel like you have to do it, then there is some level of, like, compliance.

Even if it's, like, internal compliance, it still is. Like you're just replacing one have to for another. Even if it's just a different flavor of spirituality.

I was gonna say, I even think about, like, with yoga we were doing. This was like, before there were real labor laws around this. And we were doing a ton of stuff for free because we just loved it.

And how isn't that so funny? Because it's so similar to the free labor of women in a church. Yeah, right. And it's on their backs.

And I have a friend of mine who was talking about, she left one church for another one, where all of a sudden she found her. Found herself, like, all day Sunday doing all this stuff. Like, is that a requirement to be part of this? Yeah, absolutely, I think.

And I think even if you're like, the new sense of spirituality doesn't involve other people. Like, I remember when I felt first started, like. I mean, I remember the, like, visceral fear when I first bought my first, like, tarot deck.

But that's a side.

I had the same. No, it made me feel really uncomfortable.

I'm pretty sure I'm bringing Satan into the house. And my wife was like, that's insane. And I was like, you know exactly what I mean.

But, like, even if there is no community attached to that, like, I still found myself, like, taking answers from the tarot guidebook of, like, questions that I would ask. And. And like, it was probably only around, like, a couple of months or so, and I was like, oh, I'm treating the tarot guidebook like the Bible.

Like, I'm literally going to it. I'm asking it questions, and I'm, like, trying to get the answers from there because I don't know where else to get the answers from.

So that didn't involve anybody else. That was just. Just like an internal sense of, like, I'm so used to externalizing that, like, inner authority to someone or something else and not me.

And so I think there's those little things that can also show up as, oh, this is not necessarily nourishing or not in the way that I'm practicing it currently now I'm far more loose with the tarot cards.

But, yeah, good. I'm glad we've thrown around the word

disconnection and you've mentioned. Mentioned embodiment. And so, like, it's also a pretty trendy term on social media and things like that.

And so when you say embodiment, what does that actually mean in plain language for people?

Yeah, I think that it's understanding how you feel inside and being able to. It's the. It's the. It's the knowingness of how you feel inside. And I guess if I really think about where I came to this realization is that.

That how important it is is because of how Disconnected. I was. And when we are just.

And started realizing that a lot of people that I know that are trying to, like, you know, move themselves forward, cannot access anything inside and. And becoming embodied is like, oh. One of my friends understand years ago was like, do you know your yes and no?

And I was like, what are you talking about? What does that even mean? And she's like, I can just tell in my body when something's a yes and when something's a no.

And I was like, no idea what you're talking about. And that really, like, triggered something for me of like a. I was like, oh, is that something I could. Is that even possible? What in the world.

And started playing with this, and sure enough, yeah, it's totally possible. We've just stopped listening. And especially when my trauma is in the way. You're just.

You want to avoid your body so bad because it's so uncomfortable to feel.

Yeah.

And. Yeah. And you're afraid of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so becoming. Stepping into some kind of embodiment. We.

I'm inviting people to open that door gently and, and with patience. And we don't. We're not like, going. Going in.

In there real deep right away, but because stuff can come up pretty quickly, and we're like, we're talking about before. We're going to build capacity around sitting with the feeling and. And not avoiding it and being like. Yeah, yeah, but it's, you know, there's a. They.

They call it a holotropic effect. Right. Where your body know.

Yeah.

But we have to kind of, like, help it along a little bit. Yeah. And the benefit and the payoff is that you get to, you know, step into some real deep trust, some real stability of self, some real steadiness.

You know, one of my yoga students a couple months ago was like, you. You're always talking about, like, coming into the knowing of me and the deep knowing. And I said, yeah, we're going to get there. 1.

You know, it can take however long it takes. We're going to come in where you just, like, know yourself.

Yeah.

And. And. And the fullness of who you are. You get to know who you are, not somebody else telling you.

Yeah. And that can take quite a lengthy period of time for some people, depending on the level of trauma and the disconnection.

And, like, there's so many different contributing factors that can make that a very long process for some people. And we talk.

I mean, I think most people, or at least most people who have listened to this podcast understand the Messaging that religion gives, particularly around purity culture and like the disconnection from the body and things like that. And so. But in terms of like, what that actually looks like, what did you see in yourself and what do you see in the people that you work with?

In terms of like, what are some of those signs that you are disconnected from your body?

Mm. Well, usually people know, like I always knew. I don't know if you. You did. Yeah.

In terms of like, like a guy the other day, I said, he's just logicing through everything that's going on for him forever and it's, it's never worked. And he really is trying to find some help here. And I said, let's talk about. Because we've had many conversations and finally I brought it up.

I said, are you able to access your body at all? And he goes, absolutely not.

Yeah.

And I said, and he has kind of an engineer brain. And I said, what do you think about that? He said, immediately I feel fear. And I go, you feel it?

I go, so we're not as far away from this as we thought. He just didn't.

I think it feels elusive to people when it's like I was telling a friend last night, I said, when there's something fun and exciting, we're like, oh, I'm in. Right. You, you. Once we start to like understand what that was like that. Yes. You're like, okay. And so that's this end.

And then if we can come over to the other end and you're like, that's a. You know, if somebody said you want to hang out with this person, you're like that no, I don't. You know, you know what a no is?

So then we're going to start playing with that. That in between space and, and find more subtlety around it.

And, and that's where, you know, yoga, breath work, psychedelics, these ways of getting in there and accessing it and helping. Helping to accelerate it. Because if you are just a thinker and you're. You can think yourself, think your way through it, pretty hard to get.

To get there. There has to be some. Something else to shake it up.

Yeah. And I think I probably didn't know that I had quite the level of disconnection from my body for a really long time.

And I think that's probably just like I was the space that I was in. And I remember the only sensation that I could ever describe in my body was always pain related. Like obviously we.

It's an appropriate sensation to feel in your body. Like if you have a headache or if you, like if someone punches you and you have a bruise, like the bruise hurts. Like you can associate pain.

But I remember someone saying once, like, what are your hunger cues? And I was like, I have no fucking idea. How am I supposed to know that? Like, we've ignored it forever. I'm like, how am I supposed to know that?

And they're like, well, how do you know when you eat? When I feel like I'm sick or when it's dinner time? Like, you eat based on a schedule. Like it's the, you know, it's 6pm you eat dinner.

And so like, it's. I think for some there.

When, particularly when there are survival strategies like dissociation and things like that, there can be a sense of, oh, I actually didn't realize that I was disconnected from my body. I thought that this was just how it is.

And so if that's what someone is saying right now, listening to this conversation, like, like, yeah, but I'm so dissociated, I actually don't know what that disconnection feels like. What then?

Yeah, I think you. I think you hit on it, which is. We start looking at what it is to be a human, right? Those. Those basic things.

Because years ago, a therapist friend of mine said I was saying something to her about something that was going on with somebody, and they, they said, well, they got to do it because. Or they got to do something that I felt like, you get to do that. And she goes, are you going to say that? And she said, yeah, because they're.

Because you're human. And I was like, wait, what does that mean? What is being. What does being human get you? Like, do you get.

Because I had ignored everything that I needed for. For as long as I can remember. Needing to go to the bathroom, needing to. When I need to eat, needing to sleep. I have.

I have ignored all of it so that I could make sure I did everything I was supposed to write. Yeah, right. So I think starting at the. At the humanness of us, which ties into all of this, right?

In terms of your understanding what you want from your own spirituality or just your own connectedness, which steps you into your own belongingness.

Yeah, absolutely. I think for a really long time. And I actually like, legitimately do experience at inbouts at the, like now.

But I used to think that my sleep issues were always insomnia. But actually for like after a really long time and being able to sort of like actually cognitively and think and reflect about it, I just also.

I Always saw sleep as a wasted use of time because, like, I could. Which I know sounds absolutely, like, crazy to think about because, like, we.

And now I always, like, I'm always like, on with my clients, like, how's your sleep? How are you sleeping? Yada yada.

But when you are, when everything has an eternal thing at stake, sleep just feels like a waste of time because you could be using that to learn or to grow or to pray or something. And it was just like, like, why would I close my eyes and sleep for like eight to 10 hours? Like, that's so much missed opportunity.

Yeah, that on the surface sounds ridiculous, but when everything has such a big, hefty eternal weight attached to it, time is so precious. And so it just.

All of those things lead to the most weird and subtle ways that you disconnect from your body and you don't actually even realize that you're doing it at the time. And then you just put some other language on it, which is, oh, I struggle to go to sleep, or I have insomnia or something like that.

And then the fun little side effect is that actually kind of just develops into that space anyway. But then it does become that.

But anyway, can I ask you a quick question? How does. How is your. How was maybe your relationship or how is your relationship with. With just rest? Oh, it's something you can do.

Wildly shocking. Katie. Now, like, my therapist would be like, answer this truthfully, Sam. Oh, it's terrible.

Also, I've raging adhd, so I just am like on the go all the time. So I have had to learn to reframe rest as low level stimulation for me. So, like reading on the couch, like, my brain is still going.

Like, I'm still, still feel like I'm doing something or I build Lego or something like that where I'm still present, I'm still doing something, but my body is able to rest. I'm not like, on, so to speak, but yeah, no, otherwise it's. It's wildly atrocious.

Yeah, that can be so hard. I know you, you. You're basically doing restorative rest.

Yes. Yeah, it very much had to be.

And I talk about this with like other clients who have adhd, which is that sometimes we just need to use language that makes it make sense in our brain. Because if I use the word rest, then I will. Like, I'm, I have a history. Like, and the church just like primes this in you to just like self gaslight.

And so, like, if I use the term wrist, then that's Automatically, I sense that as laziness or not a productive use of time. And so for me to get rest, I've had to reframe it in a way that.

And down the track, that might shift and might change, but for right now, only, like, a decade out of that space. A reframe is enough for right now to at least still get the end result that we desire, which is that I need to slow the down.

However I get there, I don't actually care right now.

Do you feel like you have less, like, burnout? You have, like, a little, like, a little more sustainability? I guess I would say.

I mean, look, it's getting there. I am doing this podcast on the back end of a cold, so maybe that's not a great representation, but we're getting there.

I did just, like, completely redo my whole. I also have chronic fatigue, which. Which doesn't help. So, like, I'm going. But my body is like, can you stop?

And so it's just a really weird, like, conundrum where my brain and my body are not lining up. And. And that's okay. So it just is.

Do you guys. Do you guys have hormone replacement therapy?

Yeah. Like, yeah, I am only. Katie, how old do you think I am?

No, I don't mean that. No, no, no, I don't mean that. That's. That you're heading into menopause. I just mean that sometimes that can. Those types of things can help.

Regardless of your age or menopause or anything. It could be a hormone. A hormone thing. Right.

It's largely. I've worked out adhd, chronic fatigue, and complex ptsd, and that combination is not always a great load of fun.

But again, like, I sort of said, like, it's.

For me, it's just about reframing it in a way that makes it make sense and makes it feel like I'm doing something that is, like, productive, even though it's not productive, but in my brain, it's productive for my body, so it makes sense for me to do the same thing. And so. And I think the more that.

And I've seen this happen with my clients, the more that that happens, the easier it is to start using the language that was triggering or activating for you. And. But for right now, if reframing it is what is needed to be able to access those parts, then that's kind of okay with me. So.

Which I think is that sort of very slow, gentle process that you mentioned earlier. And I feel like we just derailed into a little, like.

Yeah, mini Session. We can cut, we can cut that out.

No, it's fine. I'm pretty, I'm pretty over with people. But like, you're so fun.

I do want to ask a question because I think like I mentioned that embodiment is like quite a trendy term on social media. And so I want to ask what or how people can tell the difference between embodiment and self improvement culture?

Yeah, I think, yeah, that's a very fine line. Right. But I, I think what's important about embodiment is that you're accessing parts of yourself that have been hiding for a long time.

And we're not, so we're not fixing anything. So it's not.

You know, a lot of my yoga training is around alignment and so I really try hard not to, not to use language where it's like you're doing it wrong kind of a thing. Right. Where that would lead, that, that spills into that, like, I have to be better, I have to do better kind of a thing.

And really embodiment, when you're like fully embodied of the thing and that deep and you're just like, I get it now. I really understand. And like from the core of who you are, there's a landing inside of that that feels so relieving.

And you know it when you feel it because all of a sudden you're just like, there's a, there's a bit of an awakening around it. So I think it's, it's just deeper and it's slower and it takes into account you as the individual. There's not some five step thing.

There's not, you know, the, the right way to do it. It's just gonna be how? Because, because it's up to you. You have to do it.

And I like a gold star just as much as everybody else, but, but like it has to come from within that gold star.

Yeah. If someone is selling you a five steps to embodiment, throw it in the bin because it's rubbish. Like, yeah, it's likely just a quick fix band aid.

But I like the point that you use because obviously we know so much of like, like high control religion and fundamentalism relies on the core concept that you are broken and everything comes from that.

And ironically, self improvement culture also kind of relies on this on a similar concept which is that something is inherently wrong with you or something is wrong and that something needs be to, needs to change.

And so I think if it feels like it's mirroring the same dynamics that you've come from in terms of like 10 steps to fix or improve or whatever it is, then it's. The underlying assumption is that there is still something wrong there. And that's not about, you know, accessing internal authority. That's.

You're still outsourcing that to this person on social media who thinks that they've got the gold standard to fix X, Y and Z problems. Right. It's the same thing, but better packaging and probably with a ring light. So it's.

Yeah, we're. Yeah, we're bringing in. I am in no way an ifs. IFS expert or anything like that. It's really that I. Yeah, really that idea of bringing in.

We've ignored a lot of the parts of us, and that's the disconnection. Right. And we. It's. It's just kind of. We were never allowed to act. None of it was welcomed. And so we're just kind of bringing all the parts in.

Some are really ugly and not great ones, and. But we're bringing them in because that's the wholeness of us. Whole isn't like, oh, we're fixed now. It's the wholeness of us.

And, you know, going back to the capacity, word, we're growing the capacity to sit in with that part of ourselves and be like, that's just part of me, and I can be okay with that. And I want to access that, you know, less in terms of, like, it's showing, rearing its head.

But still, I think that's where we become that steady whole person.

Yeah. And so much of, like, what we talk about in terms of, like, embodiment is like coming home to yourself, essentially, and home to your body.

And so what does replacing external authority look like with internal authority? And I guess, what did it take for you personally to start trusting yourself again?

Yeah, I think for me, the. The coming out of the darkness into this place of, like, true. That was really the first step of, like, the true understanding that.

That the acknowledgement that this doesn't work for me was at least a start.

Yeah.

Right. And then stepping into these ways that we're working as I pulled. Pulled all these levers. Right.

That I was talking about, I started putting marbles in a jar of things that did work for me and that were allowing me to see that in those moments of, yes, I could, oh, I'm getting what that feels like. I'm getting what that feels like. I'm getting what that feels like. And from there, this. There's a little thing called confidence inside that.

Then we start Building a little resilience around it and resilience around the fact that it's not like that I'm not that that doesn't work for me anymore and some, some real kind of necessary ego around it and, and confidence to continue to make those choices. Coming from a place of real self trust and real self inner authority.

So if we talk about the opposite, I'm deeply disconnected from here to here coaching people. And I think I did okay job but it wasn't what I really feel. I feel it now just so like real for myself and I.

Because I get it, I get what it feels like and hopefully my students feel that now too. But. Yeah, but you know, that's the hope. But I think, I think that's how I figured it out is. Is knowing what, what doesn't work is major.

Yeah.

And then, and then finding some ways to open up that can for yourself.

I will often even just like allow people to sit with like even saying the words like that's not for me. Like even just knowing what isn't working. That's something in itself. Like yes, of course.

Finding the things that you'd like that you want, that you believe and that you value and all of those lovely things, they're great. But actually even just like there is an element of self trust, even being able to just say the words. Yeah, I don't actually think that's for me.

I don't think I vibe with that anymore. I don't believe that. That seems problematic to me. Even those things, they all have an element of self trust attached to them.

They're just in the opposite direction. Knowing what you don't want is just as powerful as knowing what you do.

Totally. Yeah.

Like if otherwise how do we ever find. How do we ever notice harm or anything like that?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've. I've done a really. I pat myself on the back and I'm just sitting.

Immense gratitude for some people that are in my life now and, and I think surrounding yourself with people who are doing the things that you were like never thought could even be accessible for you because you've always been told what to do or you're just so. You have to be a people pleaser that it you don't know any other way.

And I have a friend of mine who is just so good at always doing what is right for her. And this is not in a self like importance way or self centered or any or selfish at all. It is just she is really clear about what's right for her.

And she's also really good at slowing things. She's always really thoughtful to respond and I've learned a lot about this because I need to zoom out. Right.

And she takes her time and she's like a lot of, let me think about it. And then usually it's like, it's like I, I don't think that's good. I don't think I'm gonna like that. So I'm not gonna go.

Yeah.

And like that was like eye opening to me of like, are you a future? Are you a fortune teller? How do you know? I just go, I just say, I just do the thing.

Yeah.

And so having some really solid people around you that you admire and that you can really help you to grow those muscles.

Yeah.

I mean like obviously the goal is to move from external authority to internal authority, but how do people do that without overcorrecting and swinging straight into hyper independence or something like that?

Guess I would. That's an interesting thing to ask. I, because I was so hyper independent, but I also now know it was not what I wanted.

Yeah.

Right. And maybe that could be something that they do need for a moment. Right. And they need to swing a little bit.

This is a bit out of my scope because I am not a therapist.

Yeah.

But like maybe that would not be good for them. But I'm like maybe it's something to experience because they've never been able to, to try that on.

Like we should have done all of this as kids and as teenagers, right? Yeah. And you should have, we should have been able to learn this in a safe environment.

And now we're just like adults that were little kids inside trying to figure it out. And so I think swinging to hyper independence would be, could be really beneficial. But also, I don't know. I don't know.

That's kind of a hard one for me. Yeah.

And I think like I, I, I would agree that like swinging into independence is really helpful. I also think that like I talk about shifting from, from the external authority to an appropriate diversion of authority.

So like especially when you're so used to going to like a pastor or a priest for everything, like you're going to them for spiritual advice, but you're also going because you have this medical condition. And you're also going because there's relationship problems.

And you're also going because, like, maybe there's like there's a creek in your house and maybe it's a devil or a demon. Like you're going to like one person for everything. And it's like, that's not what that is supposed to look like.

We don't go to a GP or a medical professional for like structural housing advice. We go to them for medical advice.

And so I think being able to, like, we don't have to swing to like finding all of the answers all of the time from within, because that's not great either. That just think that's us just thinking that we have all of the answers.

But actually it's just going like, if I don't know this, who is the appropriate person to go to? And then sitting with, like, how do I feel about what they're saying? Like, does that feel like it aligns with what I value, what I believe?

Like all of those sorts of things, as opposed to just swinging to God has all of the answers or the pastor has all of the answers to. I have all of the answers.

Actually, there's like a middle ground there where depending on what the question is as to who might have a possible answer to what it is. So that's kind of how I talk about, like, yes, we want to swing, but actually like swings are supposed to move.

So depending on what question we're asking, depends on where we find that answer.

I love that. That's a beautiful analogy. Yeah, no, that's awesome.

I imagine some of the work that you are doing with like embodiment and self trust and discernment and things like that is around intuition because it's something that, that's a way for us to connect with ourselves and our own inner authority. And so how have you found it helpful working with people around intuition when that is very easily confused?

Post high control religion with that was always the Holy Spirit or that was always like, it was potentially like an inner deception from the enemy or something like that. How do we start to see our intuition as something that is good and true for us and not have like an automatic religious connotation to it?

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, we can go into the yes or no conversation, right?

There's that and that just like that's a no or that's a yes and kind of honing that skill. But also I think there's like an element of starting to notice when you didn't listen to it.

Yeah.

Right. Like you said, the opposite effect is so important here because I've really noticed where I'm like, oh, I should have.

I didn't listen to myself and I knew better. And because that is still. That's probably going to take a while for me to like get to a place where I'm like, like my friend.

Like so clear, like early. Yeah. Because it wasn't something we were allowed to have for so long.

Right.

It. It wasn't. It wasn't. Again, that muscle just never got worked. We just, we literally ignored it forever.

Yeah.

So I think that it's, it's both of those things. Is, is I think the yes and no game is like really fun especially to play with like a lot of this, you know, you can have really.

It can be really hard for you to make decisions. And so even when it comes to like a menu, what I still, I sit there and go, what, what do I want to eat?

Yeah. People might actually not know what that is. So maybe just like give a quick like what is the yes or no thing.

Sure. So we were talking about, about it before just a touch. But around what is my yes, what is my no?

And we can access it through simple ways like, like knowing what you want to eat or knowing if, if it's, if you're, if you're wanting to eat right or if it's just time. Am I making this choice because I actually want it. I had some, I had some pretty intense food issues which is pretty common, you know, to have any.

In any direction of something controlling around food and had to start thinking about like asking is this really hunger? Is this really like what I want to eat right now?

And it wasn't until later that I really realized it was, it was such a coping mechanism to avoid the anxiety and I think so. So the yes and no would have really benefited me to have some sort of skill around that back then, you know.

And I think that, you know, ordering off of a menu can help you to really discern if, if you want a salad right now or if you want a pizza right now. And especially with all the voices that are telling you that salad is the right choice and salad is the healthy choice and salad. But.

But you really want pizza. Yeah. And how many times do we just ignore that and whatever. You know, it's a very light hearted example of this thing.

Yeah. But I think using those light hearted examples is there is little to no consequence attached to those situations.

And that's where like I will use ice Cream as the, the example that I use with people, which is that you go to an ice cream cream place and it's like do I want like vanilla or do I want bubblegum or like whatever it is, whatever the two choices are. And it's just going like.

And sometimes I will encourage people to go to those places and to actively like ask the question around a flavor that they like and a flavor that they know that they don't like. So like I don't, I don't like, I love chocolate, I hate chocolate ice cream.

So like, and, and to just notice like the sensation, thinking about the idea that you would have to eat chocolate ice cream and to start to be able to notice though and associate those sensations with what your no is and like the idea of like eating like bubble gum or strawberry or whatever the, the flavor that you like is like what is that ease or what is that excitement or the joy or like the anticipation of eating something that you enjoy, feel like sensation wise in your body and then you get to start broadening that out into places that are a bit bigger than ice cream or a bit bigger than dinner or a bit bigger than that. But we've got to start with the small gentle things that have little to no consequences.

Like if you pick the wrong ice cream, nothing comes from that other than you might have wasted a few dollars and now you have shitty ice cream. But like otherwise there's no real issue with picking the wrong quote, unquote because like is there wrong ice cream? Right.

So I think it's, I think you're right in that, like yes, it sounds like a really simplistic example, but it's also when we're talking about like people who have come from high control systems who typically, typically have experienced trauma starting with those simple like little to no consequence, silly sort of like frivolous day to day things, that's actually where we can get that baseline of information. Right?

Yeah. I mean even in my own experience, the decision making fatigue was so intense.

And even with just something simple like ice cream, it was a lot of information around how regret would set in and that I made the wrong choice. And this whole thing about ice cream. Right.

And so it was heading into the decision, I, I know I would sit there and like with my daughter, she's little, and I would be like, which one do I want? And then it was like, oh, I'll get the sorbet.

Then it was like the healthier thing and it was like all this like twisted conversation in my head and this, it can become such a freeing thing to allow. Start allowing yourself to make the wrong choice. Yeah, right.

Yeah, absolutely.

And be like. And, and have some like. Oh, well, okay.

Yeah.

Next time I'll remember to get the cookie. Cookie dough, whatever.

Yeah, absolutely. And I like that, I like the note about like what happens after you make the choice is also information for that whole process.

Like the before, during and after there. It's just information. They're not, it's not like a moral slap on the back, like the back of your hand or anything like that.

It's just information for us for the next time that we need to make a decision.

So.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. Cool.

A connected life.

Well, I am happy to say that I feel connected to myself and like I said, I've built a really great community around me that fulfilled that kind of like belonging piece and community piece and then really great connection with my daughter as I've like opened. Opened up all of this to her and kind of my experience with it has been really healing. And I pull all the levers. I pull the.

You know what was a really big shift for me was, was not only knowing that the walk in the park was mattered to me and created meaning. I decided that it was a mandatory part of my day.

I. I allowed for it to always happen in my day instead of like anything that would have been for me was always on the back burner. It was just only if I had time. And this isn't like me. Oh, I'm some martyr. It just always worked that way because. Because of my anxiety.

And so now I just, I decided that that is happening every day for me because it means so much to me. And then I created a. A routine at the end of the day that is this whole.

My daughter did this, this whole self care routine that she has and I was like, I want to do that. And it's created this beautiful way to head into sleep.

And so I bookend my day with really significant me time that allows me to show up better for her and show up better for friends and feel connected in that way. And so I don't. I don't go to church or anything like that. I actually feel like I am in it every day.

Yeah.

Because I feel really, really good and close to people and, and it took a. It took a lot of work for myself. I think that figuring out how to do that was really hard for me. There's not like a Lot of ways.

There's not like some package you can go buy of like, how do I figure this out now? And that's why I stepped into this work is because I was like, oh, I can.

I can help people, you know, kind of piece together something new for themselves that works for them and inside of the life that they have. Right. They're not. You don't have to go to Bali now and like, study under somebody. There's no, like, thing that needs to change. It's.

You already have it all. The tools are. You have it all.

Yeah. And I actually, I love that note because I think that there is this.

And again, this is probably very much like a social media esque thing, which is that embodiment and connecting to yourself kind of only happens at this big, beautiful retreat, which, yes, retreats are lovely and they're a beautiful way for you to dedicate time to yourself and to connect with other people who are in a similar space. And that's lovely. But also, you don't need to spend thousands of dollars to go to a retreat to do this work either.

You can do it in the grass in your backyard or in the grass down at the lake near your house, or, you know, in a forest or in a cave or anywhere that's nearby. I mean, they're all nature references, but nature is a pretty pivotal part.

Yeah, but you also can do it in like, wrapped up in a blanket, in like snuggled with your dog in your house as well. And so, like, it's not work where you need to be big and flashy at a retreat. If you want to, great.

But it's certainly not a mandatory aspect, and I think that's something that gets lost in translation for this stuff as well.

Totally agree. And I also think that you hit on. Yeah, you hit on something really, really important, which is it just has to work for you. Yeah, right. Yeah, I.

Walking around the lake may not. Doesn't work for everybody, you know, and it's like literally sorting out your own replacement for church, quote unquote. And. And it.

And you'll know when it works for you.

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, you're just. And that's. You'll. You'll know your. Yes. Not, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. And if you don't know it now, that's okay.

Even just like starting that process of going, like, I want to find that out or I want to be able to do that. That's that beginning of pulling that thread. And yes, it can take time, but it's also insanely possible and it it's not.

This is not like a metaphorical thing that is only available to a certain subsect of people. It is available to everybody. It just takes everybody a little bit of time.

And depending on where you have come from and how you've landed, where you are today can depend on what that looks like. And. And I mean, I'm pretty sure it's messy for everybody, but how messy it is. Messy is also fun. Okay.

Speaking of bookending, I typically end these episodes with something of the variety of a similar question, which is some encouragement or something for people listening.

And so if you could offer just like one or two gentle invitations for people who are maybe wanting to connect with themselves a little bit more, what would those top things be?

Yeah, I think the first, best place to start is your hobbies can be a really good indication of what. Of what that. Yes. Is. And a great place to start to understand yourself more. Like, why do I like this thing? Why. Why do I like cycling? I do.

Why do I like doing this? I don't. I don't know.

I don't know why people like cycling either, but I'm sure you do.

It's a big thing here in Colorado, but it's not a big thing for me. But yeah. Why do you like cycling? No, but I think hobbies are a really great first start into it.

And I talk a little bit about this sometimes on my Instagram, is that that's a great place to start. Maybe faux recreating some rituals in your life. Like, I love baking.

And so anytime I. I really make a point to bake cookies before I go and meet with a certain group of people that I meet with pretty regularly. And it's. It's like a little bit of love I get to bring and just share and I get to share something. And so that's something that.

That I. I've actually created like a meaningful ritual, like, I call it, like, I call it a ritual for myself because I want to. And versus just I'm making cookies.

Yeah.

Right. And so I think those are a really great window into some pieces that. Of who you are and what works for you and.

And tapping into some of what we talked about today in terms of connecting with your body and yourself.

I love that because it's a gateway, like, and it's a bridge with things that are already there and that are already happening potentially.

As opposed to feeling like you need to add something new immediately or do something brand new that's unfamiliar and foreign or strange, you're actually just starting with what you already know and what you already love and enjoy. And that feels like a really nice, gentle and safe way for people to start that process, which is lovely.

Yeah, thanks for joining. More of what you like doing. Yeah, thank you for having me. This has been so fun.

Yeah, it went a little chaotic, so I'm glad that you're totally fine with chaotic episodes.

Of course, whatever. I can roll with it.

No, it has been so fun. So thank you so much for joining me.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing everything that you did and all the great questions. I had a really nice time.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes as always, you are good. You have always been good and your story matters always.