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This free, 27-page resource includes:

• Six ways ANY business can benefit from Bitcoin
• Some of the best Bitcoin-only businesses to partner with
• Key Bitcoin concepts for people getting started

Charlie Stevens is an Austrian economist and Bitcoin advocate living in Bitcoin Berlin, El Salvador's leading Bitcoin circular economy (ranked #1 globally by BTCmap.org). Charlie has helped over 140 merchants adopt Bitcoin and has provided Bitcoin services across Europe. Now organizing Adopting Bitcoin 2024, he's committed to driving global Bitcoin adoption. As the founder of "The Natural Investor" and backed by his actuarial background, Charlie focuses on strategic capital allocation with Bitcoin as the core savings tool.

🌐 CONNECT WITH CHARLIE

• 𝕏  X: @TheNaturalInve1 on Twitter
• 🌍 Website: Charlie's Website

🌐 CONNECT WITH JOSH

• 𝕏  X:@joshuafriedeman
• 🔗 LinkedIn:@joshuafriedeman
• 📺 YouTube:@joshuafriedeman

TAKEAWAYS

• Charlie Stevens discusses the transformative potential of Bitcoin in reshaping economies and personal finance.
• Living in Bitcoin Berlin allows locals to embrace a new circular economy driven by Bitcoin.
• Onboarding merchants to accept Bitcoin requires an understanding of their needs and concerns.
• The upcoming Adopting Bitcoin conference promises to gather global Bitcoin enthusiasts for innovation discussions.
• Charlie emphasizes that Bitcoin's unchangeable nature makes it superior to other cryptocurrencies.
• The Natural Investor initiative aims to educate individuals on wealth management through Bitcoin.

SHOW PARTNERS

Mentioned in this episode:

Strong Wealth: Wealth Management for Bitcoiners, by Bitcoiners

Velas Commerce: Biz Tech Meets Bitcoin

DOWNLOAD YOUR COPY OF THE BITCOIN-FOR-BUSINESS QUICK START GUIDE

We don't know what comes out of an economy that uses bitcoin as its main medium of exchange.

And we don't know how our psychology changes once we start valuing things in sats instead of dollars, you know, and when we start saving most of our liquid capital into bitcoin rather than into a devaluing currency, there's emerging qualities coming from Berlin that nobody has really seen before.

So our main job here is to keep pushing along, keep getting more vendors onto bitcoin, keep educating people on how to save a higher percentage of their income into bitcoin.

And.

Welcome to the Business Bitcoinization show, the show dedicated to helping you enrich your life and grow your business with bitcoin, the hardest money on planet Earth.

I'm your host, Josh Friedemann, and our guest today is Charlie Stevens, who lives in a bitcoin circular economy in El Salvador and has onboarded more than 140 merchants to accept bitcoin.

We're going to talk about that and a whole lot more in today's interview, and we're going to get to that interview right after this.

Charlie, welcome to the podcast.

Josh, it's an absolute pleasure to be here and getting to talk some bitcoin.

Absolutely.

So I like to start off every single interview with a few questions that help us to get to know you a little bit better and give us some insight for our own lives.

So, you ready for these?

Hit me.

Question number one.

Is this, when and how did you first learn about bitcoin?

I learned about bitcoin after, while I was working in PricewaterhouseCoopers, a large accountancy firm.

And I get a phone call from my cousin, who I've known since I was baby, and he told me he'd made a load of money, essentially.

And I had a little look in, and we got into the crypto scene.

We made Instagram accounts and started technical analysis.

But eventually, when I started in savings, the money for family, I realized that you needed to hone down onto the one and only, which is bitcoin, which is the unchangeable rule set behind the unconfiscatable money that will be the base layer for all interactions going forward.

Right.

So I think it's good to double down here for a second, because if someone's listening to this, maybe they find it on YouTube or some other place like that.

They might not have caught what you said, but you made a clear differentiation between the crypto scene, as you call it, and bitcoin.

Why a lot of people don't do that.

A lot of people don't see that.

What do you see there?

Well, I think we have to go into the nature of money itself and think of it as a language or even a railway.

So if you had to change the railway lines after each country that the train passed in, it would be really inconvenient.

If you go to another country and you have a translator and you try to communicate something to someone else, you'll find it's quite difficult to communicate any message.

Money is our way of being able to transact in value.

And if you're not on the same paradigm, if you're not on the same rails, it's more inconvenient and there's more friction.

So money tends to go towards one and one only thing.

So we only need one type of money for everyone to interact.

And if we're all on the same standard, it's much easier.

It's like having a one metric standard, or maybe just miles across the globe.

Everything is standardized, and it makes much more sense.

The ultimate reason why bitcoin is so different to all the other cryptos is because of its lack of changeability by humans.

Humans tend to be emotional, and there's a reason why things like the constitution are written, because they know that in extreme circumstances, people want to change rules because it's emotionally more viable and everybody wants to do it.

And the same thing would happen with money, and it's what happens during COVID everyone freaked out, and the central bank had an excuse to increase the amount of assets under the fed by 40% because it was an extreme circumstance.

Bitcoin has unchangeable rules.

So no matter what we do, there's no way that we can change the underlying 21 million limit that bitcoin has.

That's ultimately what governs bitcoin.

And you can't say the same for any other crypto.

You cannot remake scarcity in the way that bitcoin has.

That that's its ultimate key feature.

It's the fact that it's truly scarce, and to be able to save in something that's truly scarce is an opportunity to be able to save in something that will last eternity.

So you may have already answered question number two, and I'm still going to pose it to you, and maybe you can reiterate something if you've already said it.

Question number two is, what's an insight or fact about bitcoin that you wish everyone understood?

It breaks down thousands of years old barriers that have never been able to break down before.

I believe that bitcoin will allow to shine through the most fundamental human values that we all share, irrespective of religion, race, who we are, because it drills down into our very subconscious of how we value things.

And human action is propelled by how we value things independently.

So if we all have the same way of valuing world around us, then we'll be able to empathize with every single individual across the globe, allowing us for us to have better communication, better flow, and more peace across the globe.

On top of that, allows us to be able to save and think much more into the future, which allows us to be more conscious not only about ourselves, but also the collective.

Question three.

What's the bitcoin resource you must recommend to other people?

The Bible.

No.

Yeah, I do.

I do.

I think learning the fundamental values would allow us to see why bitcoin is so important.

Because if you do revise all of these values that have been ingrained into you by your parents, then when you start using bitcoin and start understanding its principles, it will resonate with you and you'll have a ton more conviction down the line.

And then we have question number four, which moves a little bit away from bitcoin.

Beyond bitcoin, what is a resource, tool or idea that's been helpful to you or your work recently?

Sparrow is brilliant.

Yeah, I think in terms of tools, there's a ton of tools right here in Berlin.

I'm living in a circular economy.

There's well over 130 vendors who accept.

There's a lot of bitcoin transactions on lightning, huge volumes and people saving in it.

So we use blink as our main kind of wallet.

So if you want to pay for any goods or services, use blink.

Our medium or intermediary wallet is called aqua, which is brilliant because you can send lightning to aqua at really low fees.

But then you also get twelve words to be able to back it up.

And it's liquid if people aren't aware of it is basically a side chain where you have to peg in bitcoin to be able to peg out liquid bitcoin, but it's federated by twelve different institutions across the globe, so it's a little more robust and independent custodians like Blink, and then finally to be able to save after maybe a couple of k, then you move that into your blue wallet, or you can move it into your cold wallet using Sparrow.

Sparrow is beautiful because you are able to consolidate your utxos, you're able to create multi signature, and you're able to have a really clear view as to what your bitcoin consists of, and it allows you to understand the nature of it much more.

Now we have our final, what we call our arbitrary but insightful question, and it's this.

As a general life principle, is it better to ask why or why not?

I mean, I'm a big fan of saying why, right?

I am a big, big, big fan of saying why.

But from, from, from life experience, I believe the best way to think through things is via negativa, which means by knowing what you do not want.

By knowing what you do not want, you get closer to what you want.

You really never know exactly what we want, but we definitely can figure out what we don't want.

So I'll go with why not?

And kind of take out the rubbish and then find the beautiful gold in the midst of it.

Well, Charlie, we're here today to talk about a number of things that you're involved with.

First of all, I want to talk about your involvement at bitcoin, Berlin.

You mentioned Berlin earlier.

If people aren't familiar, they might have thought Germany, but we're talking about El Salvador, actually.

So if you would share with us a little bit about Berlin, maybe even some of the background of how things got started up, but especially your work there onboarding merchants and just living there across the last year or so.

That's a great question.

So just a bit of context.

El Salvador, it's bitcoin country legal tender here.

Bitcoin is something that takes time for people to understand and for people to want to use, considering its volatility, especially in day to day services.

After three years, theres a lot of places in El Salvador that still dont accept bitcoin.

Most places, actually.

And there was a couple, Gerardo and Evelyn, who taught in me premier bitcoin, which is the biggest education bitcoin initiative in the world.

And theyre based out of El Salvador.

Theyve taught tens of thousands of students about bitcoin, but they were teaching through me, premier bitcoin.

But they decided to start a circular economy themselves and they strived off.

And I heard about this when I was in London and I decided to sell everything I had and moved to El Salvador to teach about bitcoin and to be able to learn more about it myself.

I arrived in and I went straight to Berlin after ten days, spent ten days down by the beach in bitcoin Beach, Elzante, and arrived and there was 20 vendors accepting Gerardo and Evelyn and then one other American who was there.

And we started working and we started onboarding merchants, we started developing systems.

We met up on a regular basis.

We started teaching bitcoin classes.

My job essentially was to try and allow people to understand how economy works through the austrian lens and the nature of capital.

That was extremely a building period for myself because I got to see the gaps in both other people's knowledge and my own knowledge, and why those gaps were there and how filling those gaps allowed people to be able to make more sound decisions with their money.

So since arriving in here in Berlin, it's on top of a volcano.

There's 150 megawatt geothermal energy plant down the road.

It's mining four containers full of miners owned by the government and then 130 merchants.

They're all really open minded individuals here.

Back before the eighties, it was like, it's still a coffee, coffee town, but it was massive in terms of coffee production.

You had multiple millionaires at like two or three theaters here.

And then the civil war came and burned down several of the theaters and large percentage of the households since then, it's kind of on its build up.

The tourism here wasn't really a thing, although the neighbouring town Alegria was massive for tourism.

So Berlin really wanted to catch up with its cousin town and wanted to beautify itself and wanted to attract tourists.

So bitcoin allowed for that sort of opportunity to attract a new type of tourist.

And then we've got a lot of locals who are really involved in the project who want to learn more about it.

And a huge amount of the students now are well versed on the basics of bitcoin and how to back up their seed on the limit of bitcoin.

The effects of inflation, how central banks work, all the pillars of understanding the significance of bitcoin in the world.

And it's a very enriching place, being a bitcoiner, because you feel like you're truly leading the movement for the change that we require from a dollar standard onto a bitcoin standard.

And if everyone's aware, it goes from three stages, from store value to medium of exchange to unit of account.

And a lot of people are pessimistic in terms of the timeframes and whatnot.

But when you come here, you realize if you really put your head together, if you really work with a team who are organized, have a clear vision, are energetic and honest and have high integrity, that a lot of stuff can get done a lot of stuff with regards to bitcoin, and that's what we've seen myself and Jethro, a fellow bitcoiner from Washington, DC.

We started a conference back in April called economia bitcoin.

We had over 215 people arrive.

It was a major success.

One full day full of high signal talks, panels discussing what is possible with circular economies.

And the nature of this, Josh, is that we don't know what comes out of a, an economy that uses bitcoin, that uses bitcoin as its main medium of exchange.

And we dont know how our psychology changes once we start valuing things in sats instead of dollars, when we start saving most of our liquid capital into bitcoin rather than into a devaluing currency.

One thing is just yourself in the midst of society that all use dollars.

Another thing is a large percentage of your town all saving in bitcoin, starting to value in bitcoin?

And how do the interactions between you change?

And how does the interactions with this town and other towns change?

So there's emerging qualities coming from Berlin that nobody has really seen before.

So our main job here is to keep pushing along, keep getting more vendors onto bitcoin, keep educating people on, on how to save a higher percentage of their income into bitcoin, and document it.

Document to see what comes from it.

What are the emerging qualities from a place like Berlin?

It's hugely inspiring, Preston.

And what are some of those emerging qualities?

Or if it's too early to tell, what are some of the hypotheses you have about the qualities that will emerge from a bitcoin circular economy?

Well, as you know, bitcoin gives us time.

Bitcoin gives us time to think.

A lot of people who are into bitcoin have done a lot of critical thinking themselves.

So this critical thinking also applies on other aspects of one's life.

So whether that's health, whether that is their finances, whether it's being sovereign as an individual, whether it is the way you treat other individuals, because you're thinking long term, you realize that the people you're interacting, interacting with, you'll probably still have a relationship with them down 30, 40 years time.

So you've got a, you've got a lot of mutual respect that is, that is developing.

You have people who aren't making decisions that are just within today and tomorrow.

But everyone is kind of planting the seeds for something that's going to come in 10, 15, 20 years time.

And you've got a lot of imagination.

You've got time to be able to flesh out ideas, flesh out concepts.

You've got more savings to be able to pursue your dreams.

So we've got a bitcoin center here, which is beautiful.

I'm sitting in the podcast room right now.

We've got three cameras, we've got four mics, we've got a full recording studio.

And this has been possible because of bitcoin, because of saving in bitcoin, because of donations that have come in across the globe to this place because they were inspired by what was happening.

So you've got, you know, if you compare China, where it has high capital controls, and anything that comes into the country has to be, I suppose, asked for permission by the state.

Here in El Salvador, it's a completely different ballgame.

You've got, you've got a huge flow of capital going out, coming back in.

You've got a business closed down, another business is in there in the next day.

Regulations are second to none, right?

You have just, it's just really fluid nature of business, of doing business.

You've got a lot of entrepreneurs.

You know, half the whole town are entrepreneurs because if you're an employee, your average salary is quite low.

So you're incentivized to start a business.

You've got people who are thinking bigger.

They are.

Well, the locals are starting to understand other tastes as well of the expats that come in.

You get to see an emerge of cultures as well.

And in a way that's not like, I suppose when people have come into different countries over time, they've probably had a lot of capital.

They've probably hired the locals at a really low rate, and it's probably been like suppressing in a way, whereas with bitcoin, when you're incentivizing all the locals to be saving bitcoin, you're opening the opportunity for each one of them to be able to live an extremely abundant and fulfilling life.

And for you to work together, for everyone to specialize in their own little niche, on how they can contribute towards their comrades, the local town, for them to be able to save, for them to be able to build up their savings and to start investing in capital.

So we have this.

We have this across the town, and we're starting to see people like, paint up their houses, buying better machinery, creating better quality products, nicer restaurants, setting up.

We have different types of art that is coming into the town.

We've got people coming from all parts of the world that are bringing ideas of how to, you know, how to manage a permaculture in your farm, someone setting up a yoga retreat in the middle of the town.

I mean, it's countless, and it's boundless, you know, it's boundless, all of these ideas.

So we're starting to see that now.

This is a long.

This is a long game, you know.

I guess one of the things would be interesting to hear from you about is how you have had success onboarding so many merchants.

And I think in particular, it would be helpful if you talk about how you begin to talk with people who didn't come to Berlin as bitcoiners, maybe were living there already, maybe didn't know about bitcoin at first.

How have you onboarded them across the last year or so?

And also, I guess, like, how quick has that happened?

Have they gone from being willing to accept it to preferring it?

Or is it still very early days where it's an option, but they still tend to get dollars instead?

It's a case by case basis.

If you're talking about locals who haven't interacted with bitcoin, it's much easier when we think about money.

You only accept money because you know that you're going to be able to purchase something in the future for that.

So if an individual knows that all of the major supermarkets, all of the major services that they usually use, whether it's electricity, water, they cut their hair, petrol, the vet, a lawyer, all these different services, if they know that the money that they accept will also be able to be used for them, they're going to be much willing.

The concept of it being money is much clearer to them.

So there is a point by which you reach escape velocity where there's enough vendors that people actually nearly call you out and say, I want to accept.

And it's been a huge influx in Berlin in terms of tourism.

You have events and you have 200, 300 tourists who come in in the course of two, three days.

That's a large influx of money and an opportunity for each of these vendors to make some nice profits.

So we found that people are very willing to accept bitcoin.

The reasons behind it mainly, I believe, is due to the fact that it's, you know, they can attract more tourism.

But there are several people who've taken on this savings habit, and when onboarding people, you approach them and you ask them, are you accepting bitcoin yet?

You know, as in, like, you know, have you caught up to the.

To what's happening?

Right?

So it's like they've, you know, they might feel, oh, sugar?

No, I haven't no, we don't accept yet.

And then immediately you offer to help them to download the wallet, to be able to receive, and I usually say it's as easy as just scrolling through TikTok, right?

It's easier.

So the barrier for them to accept needs to be minimal.

Like minimum time, minimum effort.

You need to be able to get them on board super quickly, super just close.

Essentially, if they're a bit resistance, you say, listen, I just want to give you a tip.

I just want to show you how it works because it's so amazing.

And when you offer someone a tip, even if it's $0.25, you know, it's like, what are the downsides for them?

The bit of time that it takes for them to download the wallet.

So I found it's been really getting easier and easier as you get trained yourself to do it.

I've gotten over 142 people that I've onboarded around here personally, and tons of people here have been onboard, and other individuals as well.

It still takes time.

The volatility hurts, right?

You have expenses denominated in dollars.

So if you're a business and you're taking in a chunk of bitcoin, you might need a percentage of that to be able to cover your expenses.

So you need to have available to them an immediate cash out option.

They need to be able to know right at the end of the day, if I call someone, I'm going to be able to change my bitcoin for cash.

You know that they're not trapped.

Also, Blink offers this feature, which you can convert a percentage of your bitcoin into dollars.

So it allows people to hedge.

So a lot of them accept bitcoin, but it immediately turns into dollars.

But when it's already there, it's so much easier to put that into bitcoin than if you have to go buy bitcoin, find it, or whatever.

But once people have these, these digital wallets that have bitcoin on them or have the option to do it, the barriers to go back into bitcoin, if their interest is peaked or if they've seen something that really appeals to them, or if they do a little bit more research on it, then they can move it over super quickly.

So getting a large cohort of leaders from the town, specifically entrepreneurs, and then also the youth at the same time, because they're quite savvy in terms of picking up technology, you have a good network.

You've got a good network of people who are onboarded.

So the start is always the toughest.

To summarize, one of the other things you're involved with is the adopting bitcoin conference in El Salvador.

I think you said this is the fourth year it's coming up soon.

Would you mind sharing about that and maybe giving a pitch to people who are listening right now?

Now.

Okay, so if you're a bitcoiner, you have to come to El Salvador.

That's.

It's just.

It's the mecca, pretty much.

It is.

And I've been here for over a year and I'm not just saying it, it truly is.

So first of all, you have to come over.

Second of all, if you're going to come over, come over mid November.

That's.

That's the best time for you to come over.

There's no point coming over any other time except mid November.

On the 15th and 16 November, adopting bitcoin is going to be on.

It's the fourth year running.

We have an extremely robust set of speakers who are doing tremendous work on building on top of bitcoin.

Whether that's on the payment side of the application, if it's more on the back end in terms of the protocols, whether it's core bitcoin core, whether it's on lightning, whether it's on other protocols like liquid or ark that are coming out that people will be using.

You've got people who are on the marketing space, you've got philosophers, you've got educational side of things.

Then you've got different areas in adopting bitcoin.

You have a bitcoin paranino.

So bitcoin for kids area.

So if you're a parent and you're worried about your child and having to take care of your child or whatever, you're going to be able to come, you're going to be able to expose them to a really decent area where they can be taken care of.

So you can go and listen to whatever you need, where you can go into the expo hall where you have some really, really high quality bitcoin businesses that are displaying their products there, both local Salvadores, but also international.

You're going to have loads of different activities there as well.

We're going to have poker being played for sats.

You're going to hopefully have some table tennis.

You're going to have two main halls.

So you've got this main stage hall which as you come into this main stage, you're greeted with a large art exhibition of just bitcoin art.

So we've got over 50 really high quality pieces coming from 35 different artists all across the world bringing their art into El Salvador and displaying it in like the main real estate place there.

At the main stage, you've got two workshop areas.

So if you want to get hands on and understand how to back up your wallethood, different cold wallets are there.

How do you work all of them?

Multi signature.

How does Mipmere bitcoin, which is the main education initiative, which I talked about, how do they give their classes?

How have they been seriously successful?

You're going to have panels on all the circular economies.

You're going to have people from Berlin talk about their own experience on how to bolster out a circular economy.

You're going to have.

You're going to have the top notch people, you have Max Kaiser, Stacey Herbert, you've got Mike Peterson, all the main people who have been protagonists in El Salvador in terms of bitcoin.

You've got the heads of businesses like Azteco.

You've got people like Athena who are the main bitcoin providers across the globe for vouchers, for point of sales, terminals, stuff like that.

We have this option called the privilege access option as well, for people.

So if you want to rub shoulders with the speakers, if you want to have an opportunity to talk to founders, if you want to have the opportunity to talk to people who are interested, invest in bitcoin businesses themselves, you can avail of this privilege access ticket, which also allows you to go into the film festival, which is the day before the 14th, which is the inauguration of the movie called Dirty Coin, which is an amazing movie on bitcoin mining and the.

The fallacies about it and the reality of bitcoin mining and how it actually bolsters energy grids.

That's the 14 November.

You've got a ton of side events coming on.

So I'm just talking about the conference itself, which is huge.

I'm just going to finish the privilege access ticket.

You have access to the mezzanine, which is looking over in the main stage.

You have free drink for the course of the two days, and an incredible buffet as well.

You've got a lounge area, you've got your private section area where you can do your meetings, and that's over the course of the two days.

So that's a really good opportunity.

You can also get the general access ticket, which is still an amazing opportunity to see all of the talks, to be able to see the exhibition area in this beautiful venue like you look across.

And it's just rolling hills, a cooler, cooler climate than down on the beach.

So you can even wear a shirt if you want.

And it's about 25 minutes from San Salvador.

All the major hotels, you just get an Uber down.

We've got buses that are coming down from all of the main locations, all catered for buy, adopt and bitcoin.

So it should be as smooth as you like.

If you have any like, questions, you just check out the website and everything is there.

But you've also got side events as well.

You've got beforehand, you've got me premiere bitcoin with the.

They do these graduations.

I went one last year and it was just, I was awestruck.

I genuinely, I couldn't believe it.

The level of organization you had probably 700 students there sitting down like a ridiculous amount of students graduating and the level of professionalism that dances, seeing these kids graduating and how proud they were and quizzing them.

Like you go to these places and you quiz them and they know about bitcoin, all these kids.

The day after this graduation, which that will be on the 12th, that will be on the 13th, on the 14th.

During the day you've got the meme premier bitcoin unconference, which is, it's a bit of more of an open source, smaller scale, but really high signal.

You get to meet some really cool people there.

The bitcoin on conference.

That's great.

And then you've got the film festival that evening.

You've got the conference from the 15th and 16th.

You've got plenty of parties as well.

On the 15th.

You've got the official afterparty on the 16th, which is going to be held in the city center at the top three levels of one of the tallest buildings there, the Morris buildings.

So it's going to be turned into basically a block party of different types of music across, across the three levels for that night.

So that'll be a great opportunity.

And then afterwards, day three, people can go down to Al Zante for day three.

Al Zontay is just stunning surf town.

You can use bitcoin everywhere and youve got loads of different activities that youll love and youre going to be sharing with all of these other bitcoiners that are sharing the same values as yourself.

Really, really good networking opportunity.

The best thing I couldve done when I was into bitcoin was first go to a first conference in Amsterdam and then the Prague.

It opened so many doors for me, so many opportunities and really kind of made bitcoin a principal thing in my life.

So I highly recommend anybody who's considering it.

Just do it.

Just book your flight, get the ticket, come over.

Right.

And then after bitcoin beach, then you've got that week where people have the opportunity to go to roatan.

They can do a retreat over in Prospera, so you can get a flight over.

And there's this all inclusive package where they'll show you around the beautiful bitcoin center, Prospero, which is an amazing initiative where they have bitcoin as its unit of account.

It's a private city, so I definitely recommend people to check that out.

And then obviously, people can come up to Berlin, which I've talked about, and see what it's like to see a grassroots bitcoin circular economy take place.

Right.

It's been over a year.

The growth has been phenomenal.

There's a strong and dedicated team of bitcoiners here.

So do come check Berlin out.

That's my wrap up.

Clay.

It sounds like there's more than enough to do across, I guess, multiple weeks.

Yeah.

Recommend two weeks.

Yeah, for sure.

It makes sense if you're paying to go down there to spend a little bit more time in El Salvador.

Also, I will say from personal experience, um, I've been to Roatan, but the keys between Roatan and mainland Honduras, the Kayos cocinos, the most beautiful place that I've ever seen.

I spent probably four or five days out there, one spring break, and it's absolutely stunning.

Roatan's great as well.

Final question, and not final question, but final topic, here is your brand, the natural investor.

Could you talk with us a little bit about that and what you're looking to do as you develop the natural investor into a more full flown brand.

Yeah, for sure.

So the natural investor was developed when I was over in India, and I did about three, four months in India, where it was just intense meditation, pretty much, and yoga teacher training course and a lot of introspection about who you are, what you're doing, what's your course in life.

And from my studies in finance and mathematics and also my study about bitcoin and I suppose deep philosophical studies through the eyes of Buddhism, but also now the Bible, you get to see that money permeates through history again and again, and it takes.

It's a very central theme in all spiritual texts and even texts across cultures, across the past.

And money has been conflated with evil a lot.

And I mean, the love for money as well, obviously.

So, you know, this has been something that's always been on the top of my mind.

And for me to pursue my.

My career and for me to want to build up wealth, is this a bad thing?

You know, all these questions that would flow through my head.

And after a lot of study and introspection, I realized that, no, it's a pillar.

Wealth is a pillar for you to be able to live a peaceful and fulfilling life and for you to be able to provide for others.

Wealth is key, right?

So understanding wealth and how you build wealth is also extremely important for your spirit.

Right?

And I believe bitcoin ultimately is the ultimate tool for you to be able to build a robust wealth and for you to be able to provide for yourself, for your family and for others.

So the natural investor is basically an initiative, a lifetime initiative.

I'll still be working on it when I'm 70 years old.

Where I will be, it's an umbrella where there will be businesses that are set up within the natural investor over the course of my life.

But its aim is to be able to help people understand the nature of money, capital and investment.

Like, what are capital goods?

How do you save in a way that is in line with who you are?

And how do you invest in something that you're doing a good for the world?

That is who you are.

Your true spirit, like what is it telling you and how do you manage your money in that way for your true self to come to come true?

I've been selling bitcoin across Europe, non KYc, and I think that's really important.

The aim down the line is to be able to open an OTC desk, to be able to develop markets.

So I'm thinking on nasty clients and also buckets for people to be able to portion out bitcoin depending on different aspects of their life.

So if you want to set up a bucket with your family, so with your sisters or your brothers and sisters, and you want to save up.

So that in the case of an emergency, down in six, seven, eight years time, you want to have a honey pot, you label it for you and your family.

If you want something for.

You want to build a hostel down in central America and you have different aspects to your hostel.

You might have a bar, a dance floor, you might have a gym, you might have the accommodation itself.

You need to be able to figure out and calculate what is the ultimate cost and when do you want to have that for.

But you can portion out bitcoin towards that.

So the natural investors is, in a way, for you to be able to understand how to structure your capital.

How do you structure your capital in order to be the most productive and the most truly true self that you can be?

It uses austrian economics as its base theory and bitcoin as its money.

And then we try and use tools in order to really bolster your own financial independence.

Its a long term project.

And if anybody is looking to consult on how to manage their bitcoin, on how to invest places like El Salvador, for example, I've, you know, several pieces of land have been sold here around Berlin.

So, you know, if you want to build anything, you need the base layer being land.

And you can always call me up, you can always text me, reach out.

But there's a lot being built here.

A new world is being built here in El Salvador.

It's a, it's another renaissance.

And that's not a lie.

I can feel it, I can see it.

I'm talking with people every single day.

It's becoming a reality.

So come, come, please check it out.

See for yourself.

Don't listen to what others are saying.

Do verify.

Well, that is a great place to finish up our conversation, I think.

But Charlie, if you would share with people where they can go to find out more about you.

Bitcoin Berlin or adopting bitcoin.

So adopting bitcoin has its website.

Check it out.

Sv 24 dot adoptingbitcoin.org.

check that out.

And it's going to be an amazing conference.

It really is.

So do try and make it down.

Bitcoin Berlin has an x.

If you look bitcoin Berlin Sv on Twitter or X, you'll be able to find us there.

I think the best way to find out about bitcoin Berlin is coming in person.

That's by far the best way.

And then for myself, the natural investor, the natural invay won the natural inve one on X.

That's the best way to find me or on television.

Reach out to meet the natural investor.

Always there to help out.

Any questions?

With regards to bitcoin adoption, with regards to saving in bitcoin, understanding about El Salvador, certain legal procedures here in terms of investing, please reach out.

Well, Charlie, thank you so much for your time today.

It's been a pleasure.

Josh, same as all the best.

Well, friends, it's a wrap.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the business.

Bitcoin is show.

If you want to reach out to either me or Charlie, you can find those links down in the show notes.

And if you want to check out El Salvador for yourself, consider going to adopting bitcoin.

As always, keep building keep growing.

Until next time, keep living and leading well, big thanks to those who have been supporting the show on fountain in the last week.

If you would like to support the show, I encourage you to listen on Fountain and stream as you listen or send a boost, and if you include a note with that boost, I'll be sure to read it on the show.